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Political attention has increasingly focused on limiting warming to 2êC. However, to date the only mitigation commitments accompanying this target are the so-called Copenhagen pledges, and these pledges appear to be inconsistent with the 2êC objective. Diverging opinions on whether this inconsistency can or should be resolved have been expressed. This paper clarifies the alternative assumptions underlying these diverging view points and explicits their implications. It first gives simple visualizations of the challenge posed by the 2êC target. It then proposes a decision tree, linking different beliefs on climate change, the achievability of different policies, and current international policy dynamics to various options to move forward on climate change.

Part four of an interview with John Michalides of Fitchburg, Massachusetts. Topics include: John is happy with his life and his children. Why his children had a better life in the United States than what they would have had in Cyprus. How he feels about being an American citizen. ; 1 MICHALIDES: I will see. I was training to… more story, [speaking in Italian]. When I finish a story and when he said… he stand up, so I can see his two hands and he told me, "Father, from my bottom… from the bottom of my heart, I will graduate here. You are really a teacher. You are really a teacher." [Speaking in Italian] SPEAKER2: So you feel satisfied with your life? MICHALIDES: Oh, yes. SPEAKER2: You think you've done all you wanted to do. MICHALIDES: Very, very satisfied. Very satisfied. All my children are good. All my children has good works. I feel them as real. This one who plan to go for shoemaker, he get good job, could be this. SPEAKER2: You think your children had a better opportunity in America than in Cyprus? MICHALIDES: Oh, sure. SPEAKER2: You think you had better opportunity here, too? Yeah? MICHALIDES: Yeah, I think in Cyprus no opportunity because all the money, all the people can have no money because [no food], and besides no college in Cyprus. SPEAKER2: No? Not at all? MICHALIDES: No college. SPEAKER2: You'd have to go to Greece? MICHALIDES: Ah, yes. Go to Greece, go to Milan, go to France, different places. Most of them go to Greece. SPEAKER2: Do you think you had any special advantages as a citizen of the… how long have you been a citizen? MICHALIDES: Yeah, oh, for the… I think five years when I came here. Yes, after five years, I became a citizen. SPEAKER2: Do you think you have more say in America than you would in Greece as a citizen? MICHALIDES: Oh, yes, sure. SPEAKER2: Did you vote in Greece? Did you have the right to vote?2 MICHALIDES: To vote? SPEAKER2: To vote? To vote for… MICHALIDES: To vote? Oh, yeah. I have freedom of everything. Oh, yeah. It's like this, like here, I vote in the government and everything like here. And they can say that the only thing different is we have not in the Greece, in Cyprus, every state with all government. We have what you all got. See? Here, in United States has its own government, its own senators and so on; in our own, judges, you know, everything, senators. SPEAKER2: Yeah. Many times people say they long for the good old days like back when they were younger. Do you think you have… your life is better right now in these days or do you prefer the older days? MICHALIDES: Well, really, I like my country because anyone knows; I pray that he was born but it is… if I was younger, I was going down to see, to [speaking in Italian] but yet I know. I can't… I want to go, how I came. I don't decide because I am 90 years old. I don't know what to happen to me and daughter to spend money to bring here, because if I die there they have to bring me here because I bought a place and everything. I put up a store and another store in my name and my wife. SPEAKER2: When you went back to Cyprus, did you go by boat or by plane? MICHALIDES: When I go back? SPEAKER2: When you went back. MICHALIDES: Well, I went by airplane. SPEAKER2: What was that like? Did that scare you? Did that… was that scary? Did you… were you afraid of that? MICHALIDES: I bought… I went in an airplane in 11 hours to Greece, stayed to Greece with my daughter, from Greece to Cyprus with… just the same. SPEAKER2: Did you like riding on a plane?3 MICHALIDES: Oh, sure. If it was necessary to go, yeah, even when I was good, I was dizzy but with the airplane I did not feel at all. SPEAKER2: No? MICHALIDES: I thought it did not move. It was a very good airplane. I'm not at all stopping on planes. I see… not friends, nothing. But I remember very few. I don't know. SPEAKER2: But you're happy with your life now? You think you've accomplished what you wanted to do? MICHALIDES: Excuse me? SPEAKER2: You've accomplished what you wanted to do in life? You're satisfied with your life now? Yeah? MICHALIDES: I'm very satisfied. People here know me and I know them. When I'm going to church, I come out, my pupils, girl, boy gather around me asking, "How are you, father? How have you've been now?" They're so… SPEAKER2: I want to thank you very much for helping me with this. I took a lot of your time and I appreciate it. MICHALIDES: No, no. Thank you very much for coming. SPEAKER2: And you'll be a great help. MICHALIDES: I thought… I thought that you want me to do for others. SPEAKER2: No, just you. But you did… I really appreciate that. MICHALIDES: Thank you. SPEAKER2: Thank you./AT/jf/jc/ee

Part five of an interview with Musa Ali of Fitchburg, Massachusetts. Topics include: Food in Saudi Arabia. His feelings about "the good old days." His feelings about life in the U.S. ; 1 SPEAKER1: So he told the judge how… eh, I told my wife 1A, the judge he say, "By gosh, even myself I bought 1A from my pocket to make it hundred. Sonny, go home." See my point the bigger, you make something just a little small before they gone around and turn come back to you, you find biggest story. SPEAKER2: Right. SPEAKER1: See? Then when you mix with bad people, you keep your mouth shut and if anyone say, if the person is bad even, say he's good. Then that person, he can't repeat and think about you. He says, "How is girl?" "Girl is the best." He can't say, "Mo says girl is bad girl." Because I said she's good. I don't care what you are. See? That's the best thing: never talk about any person in his back. See? This is my life and I'm gonna die the same thing, to all do it, to change. This my life and this my way. And my family the same. I will sometime go to Boston with my brother, 188 Mass. Ave., Boston, Leominster – same idea, same thing like me. SPEAKER2: Yeah, right. SPEAKER1: We don't believe talk about anybody. We love everybody. And nobody is small for us, nobody too big for us. SPEAKER2: You… you have more freedom, though, don't you think in this country to say what you feel? SPEAKER1: You say down there the same thing in Arabia. SPEAKER2: You do? SPEAKER1: Yes. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: You say anything what you want. SPEAKER2: Some of the things you told me, though, like you can't even talk to a… say you couldn't talk to another woman, things like that. SPEAKER1: Yes, the girls, I mean, because the girls you have to respect. SPEAKER2: That's totally out of respect, don't you…?2 SPEAKER1: See, because in order to self, male and female, like a gas and match, you can't put match and gas together. Isn't it? It's natural. It's in nature. Look to our father Adam. When God bring Adam, you know that story from the dirt, right? SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: When you bring him, where you bring him? In Arabia, Jeddah. Adam. He started from mountain to mountain, right? When God make him sleep, He make Eve coming from his ribs. That's what we believe, isn't it? SPEAKER2: Yes. SPEAKER1: When he look he find female next to him. He don't wanna move no more. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: Isn't it? SPEAKER2: True. SPEAKER1: All right. It is the first person in the world, he like female, okay? All right, how about we are? We see TV, sex, love story, a lot of acting, we human being. We have feeling just like anyone. See? And I think you have idea. I live in hot country and hot blooded. If something, you look at it [speaking in Italian] to prove to yourself, because a lot of thing you don't believe it till you see yourself. I'm going to talk a little deeper with you but you're old enough to know. The girls in this country, when she have like a lady, monthly, you know, she will be 10, 14, 15 years old, right? SPEAKER2: Mm-hmm. SPEAKER1: In India, you know how much? SPEAKER2: Eight? SPEAKER1: Eight or nine. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: Why? Because hot country. All right, when she have her period, she could have a baby, right?3 SPEAKER2: Mm-hmm. SPEAKER1: Here is… sometime like it, I don't know what's English. Like impossible. Girls, 10 years old have a baby? It's impossible here. SPEAKER2: Right. SPEAKER1: But when you're going to India, it's not impossible. All right, number two: here if the snake bites you, you die. SPEAKER2: Right. SPEAKER1: In India, no, because they have poison. When the baby born, give her with the milk with the poison, see? In Arabia hot blooded. We can put the Arabian girl with the boy together. Like if you are engaged, you have to go with your mother or your brother or your sister with you when you go with your boyfriend. After you engaged you can, see, afraid, because nature automatic. When you go together, maybe one of them get weak. See? But when you keep both far away from each other, they can. They want but they can't. See? SPEAKER2: So you think that's a better custom… SPEAKER1: That's right. SPEAKER2: Than what we have here. SPEAKER1: Because like I say when they get married, they have to be the same and you can't go your life and not worth nothing. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: Alas, you're gonna spoil her mother, father name. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: Number three, the person who was with her can get killed, too. You're going to bring from his mother… from his mother, father. Come on, mister. You're the boss, you both get killed. And local man can't say nothing. SPEAKER2: No? SPEAKER1: No, siree. Local man can't say nothing. SPEAKER2: I find that so hard to believe.4 SPEAKER1: That's right. SPEAKER2: They will let that happen. SPEAKER1: Maybe you read even what the Arabs that years and years always Arabian girls cover her face. Why? Because when a person can see the face, you get a feeling. SPEAKER2: Yeah, true. I guess, yeah, that's right. SPEAKER1: See? SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: Here, you can wear like here. SPEAKER2: Mini-skirts, yeah. Yeah, you got feeling. SPEAKER1: You can't say nothing. SPEAKER2: Right. SPEAKER1: See? SPEAKER2: Do you think that your children, because they came to this country, had a better chance here than they would've back home or…? SPEAKER1: When they grow up… when they grow old, they wanna go back. SPEAKER2: They all wanna go back? SPEAKER1: Yeah, they're born here but will take a vacation once in a while. See? And they love it down there, because even the farm, every house you have a farm from the village. You have figs, grapes, apple, orange… SPEAKER2: Do you think the people have a lot to do with it because the people make you feel welcome that you naturally just love to go back there? SPEAKER1: Yes, anywhere. Even everything what you eat, you taste it, honey. SPEAKER2: You don't like… American food is so bland. Yeah. SPEAKER1: You eat the apple; you don't know what you eat. Eat orange; you don't know what you eat. No taste. But you go down there, when you take the orange from the tree, you take the lemon from the tree, you take the apple from the tree, difference smell, different taste.5 SPEAKER2: Yeah, everything is fresh. SPEAKER1: Fresh, honey, from the farm. See? Down there, like I say, it's hard to believe it but when you see it with your eyes… I have one man, going hometown, his name Joseph Solomon, Sulaiman. He married a girl from Texas. She have two brother, one lawyer, one doctor, her name Aida. See? She live not far from my property. She have one baby boy by him. He's bashful; he can't work. See? Shortcut, he told her he like her. He told her, "Honey, I'm going to see my cousin. Try to borrow a few dollars." She say, "Okay," but she have feeling he gonna leave her, run away. [Speaking in Italian] He went to Arabian club, we call coffee house. He told stories, "I wanna go and I have no money." Have one fellow took his hat and try to collect money for him, buy his ticket. Actually, when she had feeling she said but my husband ran away, she went to New York, she went after him. She took her baby and she asked the policeman, "Please, take me to the Arabian coffee house." Policeman knew where the coffee house they went straight ahead. When she walked in, the man took the hat and he picked up the money to collect for her husband ticket. When she walked in, she started crying; he grabbed and he started kissing and he cried, too. The boy, they cried, each other because they love each other – but no money. He ran away because he can't support her. When he say that to people, they don't know the story, he lied to them. He say, "I can't make money, I can't make my living, please let me go home." When they see the story, anyone who paid $10, he start to pay 50; anyone who paid 50, he pay 200. They paid two tickets to them and the baby ticket and over $2,000 in the pocket. SPEAKER2: Wow. SPEAKER1: That's why the Arab is good with that, like I say they help each other. He went back home. I met that girl, the Aida. She say, "Mo, honest to God, I love this country." I say, "Why?" She say, 6 "A lot of thing different." On that day she swear to me, three months, because his father he met, while he fool that girl. I don't how he married her, nobody know, he won't tell nobody. He say, "I fall in love with her, I married her." Shortcut, his father give him one house, old-fashioned house, you know, not like rooms, like here, you know, not what you call apartment, one floor belong to you, no. You know, one house, old-fashioned house. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: He give to them. That girl she told me, "Mo, honest to God, in three weeks, three months, I don't eat nothing except bread and olive oil like soup," you bring olive oil and she cut piece of bread with olive oil and eat it. Three months. And now, she live in farm, cow farm and chicken farm. We didn't have chicken farm in old country house. We have eight house, you have two chicken; each house we have two chicken. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: The reason, not we chicken lover because we didn't have any stalls like here so market, you can just take car, drive to market, pick up the eggs. We didn't have that. All right, whole town, small town, like I say, Westminster, we have only one store. And if you all live in old mill, you can walk down there. But you have two chicken. I'm your guest, I walk into your home; you have to give me something to eat. We didn't have any meat, cold cut like what you have in this country – everything fresh. When you buy meat, we didn't have any freeze meat either. One man, the meat man, he kill two lamb, three lamb a day and whole town coming to buy two pound, three pound, four pound, two pound, three pound, four pound. SPEAKER2: Just for that day. SPEAKER1: For that day. And you cook it. Next day you didn't have any. SPEAKER2: Right.7 SPEAKER1: We didn't have any salami, bologna, freezing ham, canned ham, we didn't have that. All right, what you have, eggs. SPEAKER2: Yup. SPEAKER1: The two chicken, they lay eggs. You pick up two eggs, drop them, drop in olive oil. You know, fried eggs. Down there they have no lard like here. SPEAKER2: No butter, I think? SPEAKER1: It got to be olive oil. SPEAKER2: Yes. SPEAKER1: You put olive oil, drop the eggs and give you loaf of bread, just to lunch, you eat. Then you are sport; you're not cheat, you give your guest something to eat. See? Every house you have two chicken. Every house. This woman she have over 2,000 chickens and start sell eggs to the stores. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: And she made good living. She have five boys and two girls after that, and they come here for vacation and she… but she doesn't live here, no. SPEAKER2: She likes it better there. SPEAKER1: And she go in taxis. See? I wish someday you're going to our country. Honest to God. SPEAKER2: I think it sounds so beautiful. The way the people are, it's just… everybody says that American people aren't as friendly and as warm as any other foreigners. Foreigners are always… they're just far more friendly; they're far more human when they treat you. SPEAKER1: That's right. Here, honey, like I say… SPEAKER2: Down south, there you get hospitality. SPEAKER1: Yes. SPEAKER2: They say down in American south, you do. SPEAKER1: Yes. 8 SPEAKER2: But the rest of the country is… New England is known for its coldness. SPEAKER1: That's right. I don't know why. I'll tell you there's something, in tape two. One day when [Moe] was doing walked by the chief police, Mr. Joseph sent me to lawyer Dulan. I went to his home because I don't know where he live. When you don't know a place, you have to take taxi. I took the taxi, "You take me to this house." He say, "This is his house." I ring the bell, he say, "Come in." I walk in. I find him eating on the table at five o'clock at night. You know, all the family, him, his wife and his son. He's a lawyer now and call it Dulan Dulan Lawyer, I didn't know that. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: Sit down in the table, eating. And I walked in. I said, "Good afternoon." He said, "Good afternoon." "Mo?" I said, "Yes?" He said, "You wanna have a cup of coffee? You're welcome if you do want it. If you don't want it, there's living room, they have magazine and read." He didn't wait for me, I say, yes or no. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: He said, "You wanna have a cup of coffee with us. Okay, if you don't want it, there's living room, have… they have magazine, make yourself at home." Okay. I stand in the living room over an hour and a half. I never feel cheap in my life till that day. All right, can you go to Arabian house, it's time to eat and they tell you, "If you want it, okay; if you don't want it, go to living room?" Absolutely not. Sit down in my table. If you don't want to eat have a cup of tea, have a cup of coffee, have a glass of milk." SPEAKER2: But at least… SPEAKER1: Not, "If you want a cup of coffee, if you don't want it, this is the living room." Give me a chance to say yes or no. I never received that in my life. I never feel cheap in my life till that day. And 9 since that time, I never go to American house till he take me with the hand. SPEAKER2: That's true. SPEAKER1: See? Down there, it's different, here different in a lot of way. See? When you go even to American house, honest to God, you feel like a stranger, you get lost. See, I wish every American people go to our country. Maybe they change their custom. SPEAKER2: We could use a little improvement, I think. Are there any plans that you made when you came to this country? Is there anything that you regret that you haven't achieved yet? Is there anything that you planned to do when you came here that you haven't done yet? SPEAKER1: No. SPEAKER2: Everything you wanted to do you've done? SPEAKER1: I've done everything what I want. SPEAKER2: And probably more even, right? SPEAKER1: Yes, because I didn't… SPEAKER2: You didn't expect to do all… SPEAKER1: I didn't expect all things. See? SPEAKER2: So you're pretty satisfied with your life then? SPEAKER1: Yes. SPEAKER2: Yeah, that's good. Do you feel there's any one important advantage you have as a citizen of this country? SPEAKER1: Yes. SPEAKER2: What? SPEAKER1: I got anything I want. I mixed with a lot of people in this country. We had visited Roosevelt. I told you we had dinner with him in White House, and I was in White House in the table and I was between Roosevelt, George Simon the staff and Admiral Max. SPEAKER2: I bet not everybody can do that. SPEAKER1: Not every person.10 SPEAKER2: No. SPEAKER1: See? And Swiss land. I'll show you the picture. Let's stop it. SPEAKER2: A lot of time people say that they long for like the good old days. Do you hear that expression a lot? SPEAKER1: Yes. SPEAKER2: And when you think back to what the good old days were like for you, do you think they were really that good? SPEAKER1: Yes. SPEAKER2: You do? SPEAKER1: Yes, yes. SPEAKER2: You think…? SPEAKER1: When you're young, you're not worried about nothing, see, you don't care, you want just… just like fun. When you get old, you're past 40, see, you wanna do something, people talk behind you something good, not bad. That's why good days when that passed you're young, you don't worry about nothing. Like the kid in a school in this country they say he's not worried about his dinner because if he just cry everybody will, "Don't cry, sonny. Don't cry, sonny." SPEAKER2: Cater to him, yeah. SPEAKER1: See? But when you're past 25, 30 in this country you cry? Go ahead, cry more. Quiet world. Nobody force you. And old country, too, number one make me think that, here after you're past 80 you have to be border room for your mother, father. SPEAKER2: In this country? SPEAKER1: In this country; in our country, no. Sometime you're married like… SPEAKER2: You live to eat. SPEAKER1: My nephew, now his son married, right? They have a baby now. His father still support them. SPEAKER2: Really?11 SPEAKER1: That's right. SPEAKER2: And sometimes in your country, they probably will live with the parents, too. SPEAKER1: Oh, yes. Yes. SPEAKER2: Sometimes that happens in America but it doesn't happen that often. SPEAKER1: But it's very hard. SPEAKER2: I don't have to pay board, things like that, you know. SPEAKER1: Well, because you go to the college. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: Well, honey, when you go to the college your mother, father they supposed to be support you because you have no income. But if you were not go to college… SPEAKER2: If you're working, yeah. SPEAKER1: You have to work. You have to pay your mother, father board or… SPEAKER2: Get out on your own. SPEAKER1: You're gonna rent apartment, you start support yourself. See? In our country, no, the girls never work. You never let her work either. SPEAKER2: Just at home. Does she do most of the work at home? SPEAKER1: No, her mother help her. SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: But most of the time, just sit down with her mother. If you want mother she go out, you go with her and her mother see you want something, help each other. Cooking, crochet, you know, knit. I don't know what's called in English. SPEAKER2: Knit or crochet. SPEAKER1: All silk. I'm talking about dress from Jerusalem. I'm going to sell them with sample to see if I could sell it.12 SPEAKER2: I'm sure you will. Something like that would go very well, I guess. SPEAKER1: You want to see sample? SPEAKER2: You have a sample? SPEAKER1: Yes. SPEAKER2: Yeah, sure. So you think that all in all your life has been good here? SPEAKER1: Yes, thank God. SPEAKER2: Yeah, you possibly you will go back to the old country? SPEAKER1: Yes. SPEAKER2: But you're satisfied with things in… SPEAKER1: Yes. At least, over there, your life is safe, your life. SPEAKER2: You still feel danger here? SPEAKER1: Danger here, honey. SPEAKER2: More so than when you first came. SPEAKER1: Maybe you read about it yesterday. This morning one policeman got shot in Boston, in his stomach, 2:30 in the morning and his brother, I think brother-in law… SPEAKER2: The two… his two brothers-in law get killed. SPEAKER1: Gets killed years ago – same thing, with stealing thieves. See? This country was a beautiful law, constitution, before; now, the law getting loose and weak and weak. Someday… maybe you understand that even if you are over five years in jail they give you parole. Yeah, more than. Why they give you parole? There's no law. It's weak. Why he's not in jail then? And now maybe you read about it or you know my worry is that in jail they try to make union. They get… they wanna be retirement. If you're not bad, why are you gonna retirement? Where are you gonna get retirement? You kill me, you kill my mother, you kill my brother, you kill my wife and you give retirement, too, beside? See? There's no law in this country anymore.13 SPEAKER2: Everything is at such a state of shame. SPEAKER1: It's weak, honey. SPEAKER2: Everything is being challenged. SPEAKER1: Yeah, it's weak. See? It's hard to call it modern but it's not modern. When the law split from teeth by teeth, eyes by eyes, that's a law. Now even look at the Catholic, maybe you know that more than me. We don't talk about religion because too deep for us. The Pope, number one, you can't divorce; now you divorce. Number two, you can't eat meat on Friday; now you can eat meat on Friday. See? What the law? What you get… how you came to arrive here? [Unintelligible - 00:20:46] Jesus came in nineteen hundred seventy-four, 2,000 years, why you change it now? The [Bible] weak, naturally weak; don't make them all weak. It's not truth? SPEAKER2: True, yes. SPEAKER1: See? Now, they allow them now man and woman live together, no married, no nothing. You never see that before. SPEAKER2: No. SPEAKER1: You never hear that before. See? There's no law in this country anymore. The law is weak. We have a law in this country. We have but nobody force it. SPEAKER2: No. SPEAKER1: You can buy the law by you money. If you have good lawyers they take away, I don't care if you killed two people. There's not law? See? Who you know not how much you know, see? This is really bad. You call big city, every single day somebody get killed. See? I know when I went sometime in Station 4 or 9 or 12, or had got onboard because I don't know, maybe… one fellow's name John, surname I forget it, he's a policeman at Abraham Lincoln School. Do you know of Abraham Lincoln School? SPEAKER2: I've heard of it, I don't know…14 SPEAKER1: One fellow drive in the car, come from work, he killed a dog. He killed a dog. Not dead but he crippled him, break his leg, break his arm, I don't know what you call that. He stopped, he opened the door, he want to pick up the dog, put him in the car, take him to the hospital. One black man come in, when the man, he put his head down, you know, you know how he is… SPEAKER2: Yeah. SPEAKER1: He tried to pick up the dog, he hit him… he killed the man. All right. The dog is not yours, the man he don't kill you, he don't bother you, he don't talk to you. Okay? Why you kill him? This man, by the law, should be get killed. They don't do nothing for him. SPEAKER2: In other words we have a lot of weaknesses and a lot more things we got to improve. SPEAKER1: That's right. I hope like the… our Mohammad, our prophet, he say, "If something you can't fight it," like he say, I'll try to make him Muslim. I'll try. I'll talk to you. I know but I say anything nice to you to be turned to be Muslim but I can't. You say no, no, no, but I love you. I want you be Muslim because if I don't love you, I don't care what you be. It's right? But if I love you, I'd like to see everything is good to you. All right, I can't make you. Your weak things to me, what can you say? I have to stand in God and say, "Please, God, help me. Help my dear friend to be Muslim." That weak spots for me just to pray, isn't it? Now, our weakness, let me we pray to God to change our government, to put force the law. Somebody murder, murder him. Because we have to sacrifice, we have to sacrifice. It's something to teach the people because we went too far overhead. This is really bad, honey. See? But we can't say nothing, like I say, only the weakened spot, nothing only pray to God and pray as weak. Like Hitler say, "No justice in this world except with the power. If you're strong,15 everybody with you; if you're weak, everybody walk on you." Absolutely is the truth. We can't deny it. See? That's the only thing, honey. SPEAKER2: I appreciate you for giving me the time and helping me with this. SPEAKER1: It's my pleasure. SPEAKER2: It means a lot to me, and you've been very helpful. SPEAKER1: It's my pleasure. SPEAKER2: So I just want to thank you./AT/jf/jc/ee

Part five of an interview with Matilda Koeller. Topics include: What it was like for Matilda to have her first child. Her husband's work and the different places they lived. What it was like when he was unemployed after the start of the Great Depression. ; 1 DONALD KOELLER: Tell me about Wally's birth. Did you have to rush to the hospital or.? Tell me about Wally's. MATILDA KOELLER: No, no. Waller, uh, uh. well, Waller's birth was, you know. uh, Dr., uh, Ballingers, you know, he-he had office hours twice a-a day in the afternoon and the evening. And so he said, "Well, when you get signs, go to the hospital." So I called them up and, uh, he rushed to the hospital and I wasn't even there. [Laughs] I couldn't make my. DONALD KOELLER: What hospital was that? MATILDA KOELLER: Lutheran Deaconess Hospital where all three of you were born. That building is torn down. That hospital is torn down now. DONALD KOELLER: Where was that? That was. MATILDA KOELLER: That was right there on, uh, around, uh, Hoyne and, uh. DONALD KOELLER: Leavitt? Or Walton and. yeah. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, yeah, near Saint Mary's. See, that, uh. the price. well, the Catholics wanted that, wanted that, uh, space because, uh, they were getting I don't know how many millions of dollars from the government to build a new, uh, a-a new hospital to Saint Mary's, see. And so, uh, a lot of the, especially Ester Strube was disappointed because she has donated money to the Lutheran Deaconess Hospital and she gave, I don't know, 2000 hours of free service. And, uh, all of a sudden, uh, it was, "No, don't sell it." And then all of a sudden, just from under their feet, it was sold and then it was. the money was given to the Lutheran General Hospital in Park Ridge. So that's the outcome of. DONALD KOELLER: What was it like for you to have a baby? MATILDA KOELLER: Well, it was. in first place, I-I was, uh. well, uh, I didn't want to go outside. You know, I was more or less, uh, ashamed of being big. I was big. And, uh, uh, I didn't have money, uh, you know. Uh, I didn't have, uh, uh, maternity dresses like 2 they have today. And I know I didn't go to church. I didn't want to be seen as, you know. so I stuck close to the house and just went shopping. DONALD KOELLER: What kind of medical prenatal or.? MATILDA KOELLER: I had none. When I was five and a half months, I went to the doctor for the first time. I felt like. and to show you how [laughs] I must have been awful dumb. But anyway, I wasn't dumb but I was backward bashful and Ballinger said to me, "Well, now what can I do for you?" And I said, "Well, I think I'm pregnant." [Laughs] He said, "You think?" [Laughs] And I already felt like. DONALD KOELLER: [Laughs] MATILDA KOELLER: I didn't go to the doctor like they do today because it was a natural thing in those days just to have a doctor and if something. you needed attention. But I didn't go to the doctor, I think, maybe two or three times before Waller was born. And I did that with all three of you boys. DONALD KOELLER: How was Dad taking to the idea of family way? MATILDA KOELLER: Well, Dad went to. see, how did I get to the hospital? So we had a car then, you know, Charlie's car. So he drove. DONALD KOELLER: He went back to Race to get the car? MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. Well, yeah, Charlie let us have the car. So I didn't go to the hospital until the next morning or in the evening because doctor was there and I wasn't there, you know. But I had more or less a false alarm, and Waller took about two days. Now, with you, at first he said to Walt, "You can have the car when it's ready." And when I got in the car, my water broke. And I felt bad about that, that the car was wet, but he didn't, you know. And that's when the doctor. the intern then worked on me and – I don't know. Did I tell you what happened? DONALD KOELLER: No. 3 MATILDA KOELLER: Well, see, the intern worked on me while the doctor had his office hours from 7:00 to 8:00. And when he came in, this intern was pressing hard and I was in terrible agony and my head was laying over the table way back and I saw Dr. Ballinger coming in and I said, "Oh, Dr. Ballinger." Then he said to the intern, "Stop!" And he, the intern, somehow or another, injured your head. But when you were born, you were a beautiful baby and I nursed right away. They couldn't get over how I could nurse a baby. Generally, it took a day but I nursed you right away. But the next day, they never gave me you. And I wondered and wondered and I was filling up, and then they held you away from me a whole day. But in the meantime, Dad, you know, of course got a hold of Mildred and said, "Oh, we got such a beautiful baby. Oh, is he beautiful." You know, and of course, she came to the hospital and then you were in a separate compartment away from all the other babies. And when the nurse brought you to the window, Dad and Mildred nearly [unintelligible - 00:07:18], you know, couldn't. they were shocked because your head was in a point, see. Because see, the intern had. DONALD KOELLER: Compressing? MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, yeah, see. DONALD KOELLER: How long did my head remain a point? MATILDA KOELLER: Well, the next day, it went back into normal. [Laughs] But that was serious. DONALD KOELLER: I'm not pointed now. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. But I mean, that was really serious because you. DONALD KOELLER: What did they tell you? MATILDA KOELLER: They didn't tell me nothing. DONALD KOELLER: And what did you think? 4 MATILDA KOELLER: You know, and I said, "Where is my baby?" And well, it never dawned upon me that there was something wrong with the baby, you know. It never dawned upon me. DONALD KOELLER: So then Dad came in and told you? MATILDA KOELLER: No. Then the next day. I first found out the next day. DONALD KOELLER: Well, after Dad saw me, what did he do? He did not come to visit you then? MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, he came, you know, Mildred and… but they kept everything from me. They didn't say a word, you know, because they didn't want me to worry about it, I suppose. And then when Ralph was born, I said to Ballinger, I says, "I don't want nobody to touch me but you." He said, "Don't worry. Nobody will." And so he was concerned, too. DONALD KOELLER: Well, was Ralph's birth then.? MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. DONALD KOELLER: Nothing unusual? MATILDA KOELLER: No. It was just very natural. I never. the only thing I remember – I mean, I never – I did make noise when the intern was trying to rush the job, because I was in real pain. But other than that, the nurse, when Ralph was born said, "Let me know when you get a pain. I don't know when you get a pain." So I was able to contain myself without even a slight sign of pain. DONALD KOELLER: How did you pick the names Walter, Donald, and Ralph? MATILDA KOELLER: Well, Walter I really. Walter was named after his father. And I like the name of Ralph and when the doctor said, "What are you naming.?" Because we always called Dr. Ballinger, and he said, "What are you going to name this boy?" And we said, "Ralph." I mean, Donald, see. And there were three babies baptized in Christ Church by the name of Donald, one after another. Reverend Hurdle said, "What happened? What's this name about Donald?" 5 DONALD KOELLER: But there's nobody in the family named Donald? MATILDA KOELLER: Oh, yeah. I like the name of Donald. I have a cousin by the name of Donald. And I had Donald. DONALD KOELLER: Which cousin? MATILDA KOELLER: That's up in… well, he died about the same time Mildred did. He was a shorthand teacher in college in Whitewater. DONALD KOELLER: But he was part of the Logan [Court]. MATILDA KOELLER: He was part of the Courts. His name was Donald Court. He was. Henry Courts was one of Anna. DONALD KOELLER: Anna's brother. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, brother. And he was electrocuted. He worked for electrical concern up there and he climbed. that was when electricity was pretty young, you know. And he climbed up the ladder and touched the wrong wire and was electrocuted. DONALD KOELLER: Where did the name. and then Albert came? MATILDA KOELLER: Albert came. I imagine, Albert came through Albert Stockholm. I really. you know. DONALD KOELLER: And Walter's middle name was Henry. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. They came from Henry. DONALD KOELLER: From your brother. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, my brother – and also the uncle. DONALD KOELLER: What about Adolf? Was Wally always.? MATILDA KOELLER: Well, Adolf came from Dad's side of the family. DONALD KOELLER: Where? I don't ever recall. MATILDA KOELLER: Well, I think. let's see. Adolf, I think, originated. there are some Adolf in the Koeller family. Maybe Frederick has Adolf in it. DONALD KOELLER: And Ralph? MATILDA KOELLER: And then Ralph, I like the name of Ralph. And Dr. Ballinger said. and I said, "Well, I like the name of Ralph." He said, "Well, that's my name." That was his name. 6 DONALD KOELLER: Ralph Ballinger, the doctor. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, see. But I didn't. DONALD KOELLER: But there was nobody in the family. MATILDA KOELLER: No, nobody in the family. But we didn't pick. you know, we didn't pick anybody's name in the family. I wasn't crazy about the name of Albert, so we gave it as, you know. DONALD KOELLER: A middle name. MATILDA KOELLER: A middle name. Yeah. DONALD KOELLER: What about Carl? Who is. for Ralph Carl? MATILDA KOELLER: Well, Carl was a short name of Charles, see. Evidently, you know. because I didn't do all the picking. DONALD KOELLER: No, no. MATILDA KOELLER: See. And we didn't want to be all one-sided, you know, on my side of the family only, you know although Walter's. DONALD KOELLER: Well, Henry was on your side. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, Henry. But I always liked the name of Henry. And I understand, I think Margaret's father's name, I think, is Henry. Because they asked. in a letter, they asked names, you know. I said, "Well, you know, I want [laughs] I wanted somebody be named Jacob after my father." [Laughs] DONALD KOELLER: Not a chance mom, not a chance. [Laughs] I don't think Cathy will ever name her. When the babies were being born, during that period of time, then you bought the house, the bungalow. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, we bought the house when. we bought the house before you were born. I was expecting then. And Mae and Albert and Evelyn lived with us for a whole year. DONALD KOELLER: In the house – in the bungalow? MATILDA KOELLER: In the bungalow, yeah. DONALD KOELLER: Was that Mae and.7 MATILDA KOELLER: Mae, the kid sister, and brother-in-law, which was a traveling salesman. He only came home about every six weeks. And Evelyn was going to high school then. DONALD KOELLER: Evelyn.? MATILDA KOELLER: Evelyn [Stockholm]. Evelyn. DONALD KOELLER: Was their daughter. MATILDA KOELLER: Was their daughter, yeah. DONALD KOELLER: Tell me about the house. I mean, it wasn't a two-family house though, was it? MATILDA KOELLER: No, no, it was. DONALD KOELLER: With a single kitchen. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. But she. it had a great big. we had two bedrooms and then an extra porch, an enclosed porch. They had two porches, one was enclosed and one was open. But that only lasted a year. DONALD KOELLER: Was that a shared purchase or.? MATILDA KOELLER: No, no. DONALD KOELLER: You owned it? MATILDA KOELLER: No, no. We owned it, but Mae. you know, the rents were going up, you know, and she was looking for property – and I don't know how it was. Because Mae, we were getting along fine with Mae. There was no reason why we couldn't make it go all this… DONALD KOELLER: So it was just – I mean, that made it. you got rent from them which helped to pay for the.? MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. We got expenses from, you know, rent, but it was very little, you know. But see, we didn't. we bought the house and we were not in it when your father was laid off for 12 weeks. So we knew at that time. anyway, I felt at that time that we wouldn't be able to hang on to it because we lost the $500 cushion that we had in the bank because the bank closed. 8 DONALD KOELLER: This was. you moved in the house in '31. MATILDA KOELLER: We moved in the house in '31. See, we were married in '28. No, I think we moved in '30. But see, the way the house had to be paid was every five years, you had to renew the contract, see, and that would cost $500. See, it's different than today. You can buy a house and put $2,000 down and then pay every month and there was just that bill to pay enough at the end of five years. You see, that was. well, when there was no money coming in for 12 weeks, then the little that we had and what we got from Mae survived us. And then, of course, he worked but then he had to take a terrible cut, and then we were allowed to stay in the house for a certain length of time, I don't know, was it two years before we moved, but we had to move. DONALD KOELLER: So you were evicted? MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. DONALD KOELLER: Where was the house? MATILDA KOELLER: It was on Merrimac. DONALD KOELLER: Do you remember the number? MATILDA KOELLER: It was between Belden and Addison, Addison and Belden. DONALD KOELLER: And what did you pay for it? I mean, how much.? MATILDA KOELLER: Seven thousand two hundred dollars for a brand new house, brick. DONALD KOELLER: And you had to put $500 down? MATILDA KOELLER: No, we put more. We put in $1,200. Well, then we got up there, but in winter, it was colder than blue blazes and I had to learn how to make a fire on a little stove and also on the kitchen top stove. No, no, that. the heat from the basement, from her flat kind of warmed up but there was no storm windows and it wasn't insulated. You know, it was an attic flat with living room. two bedrooms and a living room and a dining room and a kitchen. It was a big attic but it was cold so 9 that we had to. what Dad and I did, we draped a blanket in between the living room and the dining room because we didn't have money for coal you know. And it was nice up there and always been, the place, but we could only stay there a year because Walt lost his job then. DONALD KOELLER: Let's go back when Dad was working at Wilson and you bought the house. So before you even moved in, he was laid off from work. MATILDA KOELLER: No, he was laid off for 12 weeks. Yeah. DONALD KOELLER: For 12 weeks. Why was there a layoff at Wilson's? MATILDA KOELLER: Well, I don t know why. I think the place just wasn't. I don't know. They were all laid off, I think, for 12 weeks. Anyway, he was laid off and I think Paul was laid off, too. DONALD KOELLER: But then after 12 weeks, he went back. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, he went back and. DONALD KOELLER: With a cut in wages? MATILDA KOELLER: With a cut in wages. DONALD KOELLER: Well, that would have all been tied to the overall Depression that was going on. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. Because the Depression was. see, because then, you know, while we were living on Eddy Street, Pastor Hurdle came to visit, you know, he came to do his visit. And I started to cry because Walt was working until 9, 10, 11 o'clock at night. And this was during the, you know, Depression. And he said, "Well, I can't understand. You're crying he's working too much, and there are men crying for a job." Because dad was making big money, sometimes, he came home with $80, $90 to do the [piece] work. DONALD KOELLER: And then that ended for 12 weeks. When he went back, it was.10 MATILDA KOELLER: Less money. And just all what happened in there is that Paul got an idea to work Friday night so they didn't have to work Saturday so he could go fishing. And then a doctor saw that – Paul had the men working 24 hours straight so he could go fishing. And this one particular time, Paul had been asking him to go fishing. And so this one particular time, it was real hot and Walt went and the weather changed and he took sick. He never went fishing after that because he froze and he was a sick man after that for a long time. Then came in this WWW something; Roosevelt got this order that any person that was not well and was sick should be laid off and only the healthy men worked. So that was the government's order. So the doctors were called in and the men were examined and that day, 50 men were laid off just like that – no warning, no severage pay, no nothing. Well, Dad was a good worker and the bosses wanted him back, but the doctors would say, "No, you can't come back." They even laid him off with [unintelligible - 00:23:23]. DONALD KOELLER: When they were laid off, did they get any kind of unemployment compensation? MATILDA KOELLER: No, nothing. DONALD KOELLER: Nothing. MATILDA KOELLER: Nothing. DONALD KOELLER: No wonder you didn't like Roosevelt. [Laughs] MATILDA KOELLER: Well, you know. after that, I certainly didn't love him because our whole lives [unintelligible - 00:23:51] because we couldn't get no relief. We finally got relief and then we were taken right off of that because I foolishly said that we had a bank account for Waller and there was $7 in it. And they investigated more and found out that Dad's name was on his father's bank book. And we were called in the office and said, 11 "How come?" We said, "No, that's not our money. That's my father-in-law's money. That's his, you know." DONALD KOELLER: That was from his taking care of the finances for Frederick. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, see. And they said, "Well, you use that money." And we said, "That's stealing." They didn't care. They just took us right off, and we had, I think, two weeks of relief and that's all. So Walt did not get any money for two years. Charlie gave us $15 a week and that's what we lived on. DONALD KOELLER: You then moved to 1936 Race. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. There was no other. DONALD KOELLER: How long were you at the Belden apartment? MATILDA KOELLER: One year. DONALD KOELLER: And from there, then you went to 1936 Race. MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. And then things got so, you know, bad after all. No clothes were bought and the boys needed shoes. And there was a lot of WPA workers working and you can only work I think a year and a half on it and then somebody else would get a chance. And so Walt wrote a letter to WPA, saying his children need shoes. We haven't had any income for two years. And so he got on WPA. DONALD KOELLER: When was that? I mean, was that. MATILDA KOELLER: Well, that was after two years that we. Walt was 7 years old when we moved on Race Avenue. DONALD KOELLER: That was 1937. MATILDA KOELLER: He was just almost. yeah, in '36, I think. DONALD KOELLER: '36. MATILDA KOELLER: See, and. Then he got $50 a month. Then he got to be, I don't know what you would call that, a custodian of the finished order, to order materials or order. DONALD KOELLER: With the WPA? 12 MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah, with the WPA. Then we got $90 a month. Dad worked for a year and a half. And in the meantime, Matilda Blackmore was in the hospital and we went to visit her. Matilda Blackmore and Mrs. Wellhaven were in the same room. Mrs. Wellhaven. DONALD KOELLER: How did you know Mrs. Blackmore? MATILDA KOELLER: Through school, through Revere Electric. She was the bookkeeper, see. DONALD KOELLER: Right. MATILDA KOELLER: Now, see, your father lost his job through a Matchless… you know, he was fired there. DONALD KOELLER: Matchless? I don't. MATILDA KOELLER: Matchless, a rubber. well, Wellhaven was the boss there. DONALD KOELLER: Oh, but that would. wait a minute. He got. MATILDA KOELLER: Wait, just a minute. Now, let's go back to the two women in the hospital. DONALD KOELLER: All right. MATILDA KOELLER: Well, Matilda got acquainted with Wellhaven, Mrs. Wellhaven. And she found out that he was in business, that he, you know. and so she spoke up for Walt. "Can you get Walt a job?" DONALD KOELLER: This was when he was working for WPA? MATILDA KOELLER: Yeah. When he was ready to be laid off or maybe he was laid off by then. Well, we get a phone call and he was offered a job for $15 a week. So, he took it. DONALD KOELLER: From Mr. Wellhaven? MATILDA KOELLER: From Wellhaven. DONALD KOELLER: So he went down, he got the job, and from that time on, why, he worked. You know, then somehow or another, Matilda. it was Matilda and us that always got. then somehow or another, she invited Wellhaven and then we got acquainted with Wellhaven, see, with the boss. I think that's how it worked. 13 And Wellhaven was. Anyway, he quit that job. He was in partnership with it and then later on, Walt was fired. Wellhaven started his own buffing business, see. Then there was jealousy, at some man at Matchless and he fired Walt. And after he was fired, he wanted Walt to come back to work. But by that time, Walt had found a job./AT/mb/ee