Spacciapoli, Peter and Francesca 1-3 Transcription

In: CIC Spacciapoli, Peter & Francesca 1-3 - Final.pdf

Abstract

Part three of an interview with Peter and Francesca Spacciapoli. Topics include: How Peter's father died of pneumonia. Peter joined the army during World War II. Living in Italy. Meeting Francesca. Moving back to the U.S. Peter's family history. How Peter and Francesca were married. Peter's support for the military. ; 1 PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Pneumonia now is just a bad cold today, but in those days a lot of people died of pneumonia in those days because they weren't as advanced as today. INTERVIEWER: You didn't graduate from Leominster High School? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: No, I wanted to get out of school and went to the army. There was Pearl Harbor and everything, so I said I'm going to get into the service. And I thought I would come out and go back to school again, but I never did. INTERVIEWER: Tell me about that, though, joining the service. You waited, you'd, uh, experienced Pearl Harbor – not you, but I mean you saw what happened. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yeah, I saw what happened here and then in 19 [unintelligible - 00:00:36] I was still in high school and I said the heck with it, I'm gonna join the service. I assumed I'm gonna have to go anyway, as soon as we get out of school here, so what's the difference I may as well go now and, you know, get what I wanted. I went into the service and had good duty. Miami Beach, that wasn't bad [laughter]. And then I got transferred to the infantry going to North Africa for 36 months. And then we went up to Italy, Sicily and Italy. And that was at [unintelligible – 00:01:11] Airport in Rome after the – during the war. And that's how I met my wife, because her brother-in-law, I met her through him. INTERVIEWER: [Unintelligible - 00:01:16] interpreter? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yeah, he was a university student and he worked – he spoke very good English. And he worked in our section. He worked – in fact he worked for the intelligence unit.2 INTERVIEWER: Mm hm. What was it like living [unintelligible – 00:01:29] when, uh…? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Well, I was old enough, like I say, at the time, in fact I was on [unintelligible – 00:01:34] if you believe it, at the club, and somebody brought the radio and said the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. I was so young it really didn't mean an awful lot to me and I thought, "Well, it was no big deal, whatever it was." But then we got all the results and we heard all about this, you know. And the only thing was that I wasn't too crazy about was when I went into the service they called me in [unintelligible - 0:01:55]. They said, "Do you have any objection of fighting in Italy?" I said, "Why should I?" You know, that I think was wrong. I don't know why they even questioned me about that because if I joined the service, so I thought that was prejudicial, you know. There was no need to ask that, 'cause I would have told them. I'd have said, "I'll fight for you, but I won't fight in Italy," you know. INTERVIEWER: But you had no qualms about fighting in Italy, where your parents came from? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: No, not really, maybe like I say when you're young, I think. We were – like my father always told me, we weren't as informed years ago like the kids are today. In fact, when I went to Italy, all I heard my mother would say was, "Well, go on up to the woods with the donkey and get some wood." And we had the fireplace. And I thought that was all Italy was until I got there,3 and I was stunned when I got there. I mean, all these fashions and things like that and cars. And I said, "What the hell is this, what have we been dreaming of?" See, we weren't informed that much; like today you can see anything on television. So at that time we thought it was no big deal. INTERVIEWER: I'll tell you, I was shocked, just four years ago I went to Calabria and I thought it was going to be like what you just described and… PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Right? Right? Am I right? INTERVIEWER: Because some [unintelligible - 00:03:11]. FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: Even today, huh? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I did, because that's what people would talk about. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: See, that's amazing. That's what I was saying. INTERVIEWER: People are poor, and the mafia. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: They don't even want to come here anymore. It's funny because when [unintelligible - 00:03:28] nowadays contractor [unintelligible - 00:03:29]. When my wife came I just [unintelligible – 00:03:31] built a new house. And he said, "Come here I want to show you something." So this was like 1946, '47, '48. And he took the telephone, he picked it up, he unplugged it and he put it into the wall. He said, "See, it's like the movies, phones like this, you know." To my wife it was like a joke, and I had that already when I was there. Because when I was stationed up there and somebody wanted me she picked up the phone and to me that was new. I said, "What the hell is 4 this? I said, "Oh, that's why you can unplug it." And he thought that was such a big deal, I'm sure. INTERVIEWER: I was just shocked by how beautiful those – when you see the old home side of the mountain [unintelligible - 0:04:15] then you walk there and there is marble… PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Marble on the floor, oh yeah. I still say I think that everybody should visit it, not 'cause I'm Italian, I think everybody should visit Italy once because I tell you there is so much over there to see, really. Maybe you might not like it. I don't know about. I wanted to live in Rome but I couldn't stay because I couldn't find a job. I would have stayed there. INTERVIEWER: So when you fell in love you wanted to stay there. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yup. I like the country. I wanted to stay even if I hadn't met her. I wanted to stay there but my Italian wasn't that good, first of all. I could get by, like she said, and I couldn't write it that well so who needs me in Italy? And I thought I'd be an interpreter, but I found out that the Italians – most Italians speak six languages themselves. It's not like here. And secondly they weren't going to give me a job because there weren't enough jobs for the Italians. We went back [unintelligible – 00:05:15] me, her, and my daughter and I worked at the [unintelligible – 00:05:17] Cemetery. I worked at the cemetery for two years. We were digging up the remains from all over Italy and I was hoping to get the assistant superintendent's job, but I never got it. I would have stayed there.5 INTERVIEWER: So tell me, and then you came to the United States. What was that like for you? Did you ever expect to do that? Oh, no, you don't want me to ask? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: She wasn't very happy. She wasn't a happy camper. FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: No, it was hard for me because I came first. He had to stay in Italy another six months. INTERVIEWER: You came here without him? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: His family met me in New York; some of his family came by. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: About three months. INTERVIEWER: Wow. And what year was that? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: 1946. INTERVIEWER: So what was it like – so you left Rome? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: [Unintelligible - 00:06:19] come from Rome to Leominster. [Laughter] INTERVIEWER: [Unintelligible - 00:06:21] PETER SPACCIAPOLI: I don't mean that, but it's like, say, if somebody from New York moves to Leominster, because we had a woman who was married to some Jew that had a big factory and she [unintelligible - 00:06:31] back here, in fact. She told her husband, "You know, I could take Leominster for a year, but we're moving back to New York or else." She left him and she moved back to New York. And she had money, it's different, you say, well, in her case maybe she'd been happy if she had some money, but they were very wealthy, so. "I can't take this." INTERVIEWER: I think you – it's hard when you're used to museums and restaurants.6 PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Oh sure! In Rome everybody on the street, everything is open and you go from one piazza, it's more… did you go Rome at all? INTERVIEWER: No. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Aw. She's from Rome, near the University of Rome. INTERVIEWER: So tell me, what was it – first of all, how did he talk to you into coming here without him? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: [Laughter] I had no choice. FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: Well, first of all, on both sides we were discouraged from marrying anyway, because especially the American government didn't approve of GIs marrying. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Oh yeah. They were our enemy, remember, first thing. Supposedly we weren't supposed to… FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: I has no idea that I would have to come first until after we were married, of course. INTERVIEWER: So how long did you date? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: Three months. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Three months [laughter]. INTERVIEWER: Three months? So you spoke English? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: No. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: No. Well, I spoke Italian, but she couldn't understand my Italian. FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: Understand him anyway, yeah. INTERVIEWER: So you know what [unintelligible - 00:08:00] that was? [Laughter] FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: I guess, I guess. I didn't speak any English at all. No. INTERVIEWER: And did you learn? How did you learn? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: I guess by being in the action. Television helps a lot. I got a little better at a time.7 INTERVIEWER: What did your parents say when you said that you wanted to marry this American? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: My father died just before we got married, actually, so it was just my mother. My mother liked Peter a lot. So my family are very open-minded. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: I [unintelligible - 00:08:44]. It was an easy to get along relationship. INTERVIEWER: And what about your mother? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Oh, she was excited. You know, somebody from Italy, especially because some of my family some married Polish and some married French, some married Irish. But, I mean, she accepted me; it was no big deal, but much better if you married an Italian. INTERVIEWER: Now, did you consider Peter an American or an Italian-American or…? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: I don't know. I was only 18 years old. I really don't know myself what I thought. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: And she'd been through the war. They even bombed near her area, not only at the university during the war, so she [unintelligible - 00:09:29]. And the bad times they had where they used to have to line up for food. INTERVIEWER: And your neighbor? Was anyone against the Americans? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: I was, at first [laughter]. INTERVIEWER: You were? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: I wanted a frisky man, yes. You know, go up from Italy and to me that was the enemy and all that, but after I met Peter then I see, you know. American people, American GIs and I thought they were very nice so I kinda changed my attitude, I guess.8 INTERVIEWER: You had to seek permission from the government, two governments? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Oh yes! I had to pay for it. She had to go through a police investigation. The chaplain went down to their house, tried to talk to her out of it, an American chaplain. INTERVIEWER: So what did he say, do you remember? What kind of things did he say? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: That usually things don't work out. INTERVIEWER: So what did he say? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: That usually these marriages don't work out. That we should be think about it and [unintelligible – 00:10:38] if we didn't get married. INTERVIEWER: But you still decided to. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: I just want to share the family picture here so you'd see. My father was big on family pictures. This is one I wsnt in it. This is an older one. INTERVIEWER: So this is your father and mother? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: This is my father and mother and brothers and sisters. I wonder if that was… I don't know. INTERVIEWER: Is this you? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: No, I was not – that's the one I wasn't in. But I have another one here. INTERVIEWER: Wow! What a great picture this is. I would like to use this; could I make a copy? I will call you. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Sure. You ought to see the big one I got upstairs. INTERVIEWER: Oh, there's your father back there. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: He must have liked pictures, my father. He always had pictures. I am trying to set this thing up now. Oh, that's when we got married in Italy.9 INTERVIEWER: Oh, what a great picture. I love this. Oh this is great. Now who's this? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: That's her uncle, because they don't have big wedding like we do here, you know like bridesmaids and everything. INTERVIEWER: Where is your uncle? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Right there; that's her uncle. And this is my company commander, Captain [Carisi]. This is the church that – did you go to that church [unintelligible – 00:12:07] It's the American church – it's an Italian church but the Americans use it. You know it's a beautiful church. This is my mother and my father when they came from Italy. Francis he was a [unintelligible – 00:12:21]. INTERVIEWER: They look so young. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yeah. This was me and my brothers in the service. INTERVIEWER: So all of you served, and all of you thankfully came back? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yeah. Thank God. This is my mother in her later years. 1972, '71. INTERVIEWER: And what was her first name? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: [Germania]. It's a very strange name. It's like insomnia. This was the first picture we took while in Rome. INTERVIEWER: [Germania]. Now would that be German in a…? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: No it would be Germany in Italian. INTERVIEWER: You never found out maybe why? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: No, I never did find out. I'm trying to get this thing together for… INTERVIEWER: Now, all of these children look very well dressed.10 PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Well, that's why I say my father was quite a guy for an immigrant. I mean, everybody dressed up, they dressed up for pictures. And I think it was six months after that he died. INTERVIEWER: So this is you right here? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yes, that's me. And we three are alive, that's it. This is my father, that's my mother, that's my brother Don. INTERVIEWER: Now, did all of you stay in Leominster? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Except Viola, right? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: And Francis… he was by the window. INTERVIEWER: Where's Viola? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Viola is in New Jersey. She's the –I'm the youngest and she's the next one. INTERVIEWER: How did she end up there? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: She married a soldier from Port [Devons]. Italian. INTERVIEWER: I heard that the priest told the Italian girls to stay away from soldiers. She didn't listen. [Laughter] Oh, Francesca, so did you have to seek permission and were finally approved for marriage? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yeah, they approved. They wouldn't turn you down, but, you know, they wouldn't encourage you. They figured if they talked to you long enough you'd be discouraged and say, "Well, I'd better not." I know they put pressure on a lot of people. INTERVIEWER: And did you get married right away after they gave permission? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: No, about a month or so. Well, at that time like I said I had to make a decision because in those days I didn't have any money. And I said, "Now, if I go home am I 11 gonna come back?" I kinda needed to decide and you hope you're making the right choice. INTERVIEWER: So you were going to be discharged? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yes, I was gonna be discharged. FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: He was gonna be discharged but after we're married he had to stay another six months. This is why I have to come first and I came with 400 war brides on the ship. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: That was my father in the Italian army. INTERVIEWER: Now was that required…I'll get that [unintelligible – 00:15:25]. Let me write that down so I remember. Is there a requirement for Italian men to serve in the army? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Oh yes. Everyone serves. They go by what they call the class year, which means the year you born. Her nephew is a periodontist, he's world renowned; he is very good. He had to go into the service whether he liked it or not. And the other nephew [Stefano], he's a dentist and he had to go into the service. Over there you have to, we're spoiled over here. INTERVIEWER: Maybe not for long though. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Yes. INTERVIEWER: So what happens, do they graduate from high school and then they are required, or…? FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: Eighteen years old and they have to go in the service so for a certain term after that. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: They call them up by class. They don't have a lottery; they say all the males born in 1918 and… FRANCESCA SPACCIAPOLI: Unless they're enrolled in the university, then it's postponed, you know. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: But they still go.12 INTERVIEWER: Okay, for someone like your father back then… PETER SPACCIAPOLI: He probably went in and maybe at the time he was probably required to go in, I am sure. He was 26 years old, I think, when he came here, I think. INTERVIEWER: But they paid? Are they paid? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Oh yes. But you know, like, not just Italy but all of the European countries other than England, I mean, the service isn't like, I mean, everybody complains about the food in the military service. I never complained that they don't cook like mother's going to cook, you know, but I tell you one thing the food was fresh, you get all what you want to eat, you get the best clothing in the world, you know. And that's what I tell a lot of kids, if you have no career go into the service, you know. They kinda laugh at me. But like I say I wouldn't be worried about the service, I think everybody's gonna worry about this country, never mind going overseas. Right? INTERVIEWER: Right. I know, we'll get to that too. But tell me… PETER SPACCIAPOLI: You've got a boy? INTERVIEWER: No. Two girls. PETER SPACCIAPOLI: Send them through ROTC. Pay their way through college. INTERVIEWER: You have one daughter? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: One daughter, yeah. INTERVIEWER: No sons? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: No, two grandsons, these two boys over there. INTERVIEWER: Do any of them go to ROTC? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: No, no, no they're not like their grandpa [laughter]. Well, this generation, I don't blame them, they're all 13 the same today but I really wish, I really like pray that they have conscription, every male go into the service. It doesn't even bother them to see girls going overseas now, a lot of women. They're in Afghanistan, they go to basic training. INTERVIEWER: Why do you think it is important? PETER SPACCIAPOLI: It builds character. I tell you, you'll learn something from it. Because first of all you're going to find out that you're not such a big shot, number one, and you'll learn all about the discipline. And you learn to be in the right place at the right time or whatever. But it will build character, and you realize what life is all about and you travel. I got a lot of travel out of the service. I'm very grateful because [unintelligible - 0:18:40] /AT/jf/eb/sg