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Transcript of an oral history interview with Harold L. Gilmore, conducted by Joseph Cates on 22 January 2017 as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Harold Gilmore was a member of the Norwich University Class of 1953; his experiences as a student at Norwich University and his post-graduation career path, particularly as an educator, are discussed in his interview. ; 1 Harold Gilmore, Oral History Interview January 22nd, 2017 Home of Harold Gilmore Interviewed by Joseph Cates JOSEPH CATES: Let's record and we can get started. HAROLD GILMORE: All right. Very good. JC: All right. This is Joseph Cates. Today is January 22nd, 2017. I'm interviewing Harold Gilmore at his home. This interview is sponsored by the Sullivan Museum and History Center and is part of the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. To start off, can you tell me your full name? HG: Harold Lawrence Gilmore. JC: And, when and where were you born? HG: Born in Whitinsville, Massachusetts in 1931. JC: Okay. HG: April 30th. JC: April 30th. What is your Norwich class? HG: Class of 1953. JC: Okay. Tell me about where you grew up and what it was like as a child? HG: I grew up in a very unique town. The town of Whitinsville, a village of Whitinsville, in the town of Northbridge, Massachusetts. It was what you'd call a company town. It was a town that was operated fundamentally by the Whitin Machine Works, which was a textile manufacturing company. My father worked there his whole life. My mother worked there part-time at times. It was a town that was written up by the Harvard Business School at one point in time as sort of a socialistic environment. JC: Oh! HG: It was a town that ran the library. It had its own housing for its people. The rents were subsidized so to speak. They maintained those properties. So, it was a very unique environment, something that probably not many people in the United States have ever lived in but was very enjoyable. It was secure and stable 2 employment, good schools. Other resources were all well-made, fire departments, police departments, many of it subsidized heavily by the corporation. JC: And what corporation was it again? HG: Whitin Machine Works. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: And it was a textile manufacturing company. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: Subsequently, it has disappeared. Went out of business. Textile manufacturing moved elsewhere. Moves down South and then out of the country primarily. The remnants of it are over in New Bedford where I ended up retiring from the University of Massachusetts over there where the icon on the entrance of the school is a huge spindle, which is a representative of a device that runs a thread through looms, weaving machines. JC: What made you decide to choose Norwich? HG: Well, I was the first individual in my family to go on to college. It's a large family. My mother was one of eight children. My father was one of four. They married. They lived within, almost a stone's throw of each other. We lived in the same place. I grew up in the same place and had many aunts and uncles in the neighborhood. So, I did not have any prior experience with Norwich. The only thing that was driving me at the time was my father said, "You've got to get a college education." He was a wood pattern maker and worked at Whitin Machine Works, as I noted, and he said, "This is not your lifestyle. You've got to upgrade yourself." I did not have the experience that current people have of visiting campuses. I never went to Norwich. I had an uncle that had gone to the University of Rhode Island. He had not graduated. So, I applied there. And then, Norwich had a high school visit team that came through and I got impressed with what that fellow had to say so I applied to Norwich. I did not get accepted to the University of Rhode Island. So, I had the choice of one school, Norwich. So, I went to Norwich. Unbeknownst to me about anything about Norwich. As a matter of fact, I had my high school yearbook signed by one of the teachers and he signed it, "Hup, one, two, three" and he signed his name. I said, "What's that all about?" He says, "You're going to a military school! You're going to be in the Army!" I says, "I am?" When I arrived at Norwich, it was like a new day in my life. I had no military experience. I'd never even been a Boy Scout. The regimentation was totally new to me. That probably was the beginning of what I consider a rather difficult period of adjustment for the four years. As you will probably know, I was a private in the Corps for four years. 3 JC: Oh. Okay. HG: Never given rank. I had the one opportunity close to graduation, which I refused. I thought it was a token gift which I did not appreciate receiving at that point in time. I didn't accept it. In fact, I applied to transfer out of Norwich my freshman year to start college at Georgia Tech. I got accepted to Georgia Tech, got a telephone call from my mother saying, "What is this acceptance notice we've received from Georgia Tech?" I said, "Well, I'm going to Georgia Tech next year, Ma. I'm not going to Norwich." She says, "Very well. Pay your own way." I stayed at Norwich for the rest of my life because I had no money at all! JC: What was it like that first day showing up at Norwich? HG: Well, it was a very memorable day. My father and mother drove me to school with the necessary material that I had to have, clothing and I think we had to bring a mattress at the time. We arrived at Norwich in the morning. My father and mother dropped me off, dropped me off at Cabot Hall. Room 109 was my room. My roommate, Ron Bartlett, at the time, had arrived about the same time so I met his father and mother. We met each other, of course. My father, immediately after dropping me off, jumped in the car and drove back to Whitinsville. They had to get home before dark I think. We started out very early in the morning. In fact, had to turn back because he discovered on the way that we probably didn't have enough gas to make it all the way to Vermont. We went back to get an open gas station because we started out so early in the morning. But no, they dropped me off and left. I remember a conversation I had with Ron's mother and father and she said, "Would you take care of Ron? He hasn't been away from home before." I said, "Yes, I will, Mrs. Bartlett, but neither have I been away from home before." (Laughs.) That was an interesting first day. And then, in contrast to the first day my second year, where I arrived on campus and used to ship a lot of my stuff up in a big, overseas container by train so that my shipment had arrived at the mailroom on campus. I went to the dormitory and I was back in Cabot the second year too. I said, "Rooks! Rooks! I need a rook to go down and get my suitcase and bring it up to the room." "Sorry, Sir. We don't do that anymore." JC: Oh! HG: The harassment rules had changed over the summertime and I hadn't gotten word of it. Plus, I arrived too late, I guess, because I recall having to do that very same thing for upperclassmen that first year. JC: Mm hmm. HG: So, anyway, that was my first day at Norwich. JC: What was your major? 4 HG Electrical engineering. JC: And why'd you choose that? HG: Well, my uncle was sort of involved with the electrical work and not that he had a great influence on me but I observed that and I thought, "Well." He was working for General Electric at the time and I said, "Well, I think that maybe I would do the same thing." So, I sort of went into that field not for any other particular reason than he was successful in what he was doing and I thought it would be of interest to me. JC: Okay. HG: Fortunately for me, in the long run, there were only nine matriculated double Es in '49, which got depleted very quickly, either through people who didn't continue at Norwich or transferred to some other major. I graduated with one other very close friend of mine to this day, Al Gardner, who lives out in the southern part of Vermont on the western edge of Massachusetts. We were the two electrical engineers that graduated in '53. We had tutorials. It was a very fortunate thing for me because probably the school where I had to fend more for myself, I might not have done as well as I did in the curriculum. It was a good experience. JC: Which fraternity did you belong to? HG: I joined Lambda Chi Alpha, which is off-campus, up on the hill. My primary reason for joining them was at the pledge period, you were entertained at the fraternities. They had an excellent meal. At that time, they had a pastry chef with some sort of recognition and he put on a beautiful dessert and I was a fellow who had been plump my whole life, loved sweets, and said, "This is the place for me!" Joined the fraternity and wouldn't you know it, he terminated. He quit. The pastry guy was gone! But we still had good cooks, husband and wife team over the four years, and I ended up being steward of the fraternity. It was a large part of my college life was being in the fraternity. I had to be there at least every day, serving a meal, because I was in the kitchen. In fact, I got rewarded for doing that type of job with half my food bill was being paid by labor so that worked out very nicely for me. JC: Well, what else do you remember about being in the fraternity? HG: Great social environment. I thought that we had, as any organization you end up with some cliques and I had three or four fellows that I chummed closely with and carried on to this day until both of them have now deceased. We had a life-long bonding there so the fraternity life to me was probably my sole social environment on the campus other than some of the things I did with the intramural sports and whatnot. I really was sorry to see the fraternities go but I understood the reason for it and, of course, I was long out of the school at that time anyway 5 so I didn't react one way or the other. It was just a little bit of self-disappointment in the whole thing. I've kept my affiliation with Lambda Chi Alpha for over the years. I still am a donor to the fraternity. I've had representatives from Indiana come up and visit me at the house here asking me for more money. The Lambda Chi, at the time, had sort of reputation of being an academically-oriented fraternity and scholarly environment. Probably didn't pan out as scholarly as I had thought it would but I think the fraternity still holds to that sort of criteria. They like to have their fraternities be scholastically oriented, not just a place to go and drink beer or mess around with the ladies, you know. JC: Right. HG: So, yeah. I heard there might rumors that the fraternities with the civilian population at Norwich might come back. JC: Really? HG: Yeah. I heard a rumor about that but just a rumor. I'm sure that it'd be a hard sell to get them back on campus. JC: Yeah. I know Theta Chi would like to be back. HG: Theta Chi was the Alpha Chapter so, and Lambda Chi, we were the Zeta Chapter, the Zeta Chapter of Lambda Chi so we were not new in the world of fraternities as Theta Chi was. JC: What intramural sports did you play? HG: I got involved in softball, a little bit of tag football and basketball. As I recall, I managed, I guess you'd say, our company basketball team for a while, not that I was any expert in the sport itself but I knew enough about it to try to get the boys organized and spur them on at the games with the other companies. I was in Company B, I think, most of the time. We did okay but it gave you something to do as well as sit in your room and study, that sort of thing. Then, I was on the rifle team for a while. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: When I discovered that my scores were not counted because they have a system of counting only the top five or six scorers and I was always one or two below. I figured I never was good enough. I shot for the team and I gave it up. Tom Atwood, a classmate of mine, was an Olympic sharp shooter so he's – JC: Oh. Really? 6 HG: Oh, yeah. Tom was on the team and he spent a lot of time during his days in the military doing just that, representing the United States on the Olympic rifle team. Tom and I keep in touch to this day. JC: Okay. HG: Yep. JC: He would be a good one to interview. HG: Yeah. Tom is down in Florida in the winter and out in the Chicago area, I think, in the summer. JC: Okay. HG: They know, the school, where he's located. So, if you want to hook up with him, it'd be nice to get him because he was a cadet colonel too, I believe. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: I think Tom was. I know he was high rank in our corp. Getting old here. I forget some of the facts. JC: I understand. Besides intramural sports, what other activities did you participate in? HG: Oh. Let's see. University activities, you mean? JC: Mm hmm. HG: I don't think I, I didn't get involved in any of the other, oh, the IEEE, they had a professional chapter, student chapter. I was involved in that and became an officer in it. Of course, there weren't too many electrical engineers but we did have some younger grads, classmates coming in to it. We did field trips for that. And I was involved with the administration of it, so to speak. But that was probably it, the IEEE. JC: What does IEEE stand for? HG: Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: Yeah. It's still an ongoing organization. I still belong to them. I'm a life member in that organization now, because of my age primarily and being a member for so many years. But yeah, it was a good organization. 7 JC: What'd you do to relax when you were at Norwich? HG: Sleep! (Laughs.) We would go to the movies. Go to Montpelier. Perhaps go out to eat in Barre maybe once a week. One of the difficulties of my being a student at Norwich was I didn't have any money and I didn't have a car. So, I was dependent upon a very tight budget and it didn't loosen up at all until I became a junior and senior where we were getting the ROTC ninety cents a day supplement, twenty-seven dollars a month. That helped a lot for spending money. My mother used to say, "The only time you call home, Harold, is when you want money. We don't have any to give you." So, I used to spread my money pretty thinly. So, I didn't do a lot of relaxing that cost anything. There is an incident. One time, Garry Moushegian, Al Gardner, my buddy, the electrical engineer, and I decided to go horseback riding and thought that'd be nice Saturday afternoon entertainment. So, we went out and, funny thing, we rented the horses and got saddled up, got on the horses, and started our trip. Well, none of us knew how to ride a horse. None of us had been on a horse before. The horses turned around and went back to the barn. Garry's a tall guy. Well, the barn door was so low, he got scraped off the saddle. Laughs. Finally, we get them back outside and get them on the way. We did our tour and we're coming back home and, of course, the horses wanted to get back in the barn again. So, they started trotted along and we're bumping along behind them in the saddles and so forth. We got back to Norwich and Garry came over to my room. He says, "Look at what happened!" It wore holes in his underwear! Laughs. So, we had some laughs, you know. Different things like that happened. That's the biggest recollection I can of the things that we did. We had fraternity parties. We had to get involved in that, preparing for them and that kind of thing was an activity that I did as extracurricular. JC: Did you do anything else for entertainment other than what you mentioned? HG: Not that I can think of. I wasn't in any outside of the school activities. I did join the Masonic Order when I was a senior. I joined that and that involves some off-campus activity. I got involved in the Northfield Church. Even as a freshman, I would walk down to church. So, I got involved in church activities. And to this day, I support the Christian Fellowship Organization financially on campus each year to help them along so they can have programs that they want to put on. They have a little bit of money to work with. JC: Right. HG: So, yeah, that sort of thing I got involved in. JC: Okay. Do you remember any particular songs from when you were at Norwich? HG: Well, there's "Norwich Forever," of course, the school song. There used to be a song we used to sing, "On the steps of Jackman, crying like hell! There's a 8 newborn baby. La da da." Laughs. That song we used to sing. The other words they escape me and they don't escape me. They better escape me. They were choice words. JC: I understand. I know the words too. HG: Do you know the words!? Laughs. No. That's about all I remember. JC: I've got it in an oral history, "The Indecipherable Song." HG: Have you really? JC: Mm hmm. HG: I'll have to read that because I'd like to find out what the rest of the song is. It's something like, "A bastard's son of old NU." Awful song. JC: Yeah. It's an awful song. Any other songs? HG: I don't think so. Not that I can remember. JC: Who were the instructors who were most influential during your time there? HG: Well, the electrical department certainly was. Professor Marsh and Professor Maxfield and Professor Spencer, those three. There's an F.A. Spencer award in electrical engineering on campus, I believe. And I have contributed financially to that several times. I don't necessarily do it every year. Those gentleman were very influential. They were almost like tutors to Al and I. We'd be in class. It was just the two of us. You got to know the people and they got to know us. That was a very unique college relationship, I think, that we had. JC: Mm hmm. What was your favorite class? HG: My favorite class? I don't know what that would have been. I know my most unfavorable class was. JC: What was that? HG: Thermodynamics! I flunked that one. I had to take that as a, in order to graduate, I had to pass that course my final semester. So, I was taking an overload. I like Public Speaking. That was an interesting class. I did that the freshman year. I recall we all had to give a talk and I think the fellow's name was Fisk that was the professor. After I got through, I was critiqued, of course, by the student population, including classmates and they criticized me for having my Boston accent. Fortunately, for me, Professor Fisk was from Braintree, I believe. He says, "Mr. Gilmore is going to be fine with his language. I understood him perfectly." 9 Laughs. So, that was a favorable thing out of that class. I remember that so I'd call it a favorite class. I enjoyed it. JC: What do you remember about being a rook? HG: The harassment. A lot of harassment and the fact that we had these duties to perform like opening of windows and preparing the latrines and shining upperclassmen's brass and shoes and that sort of thing. As a person unfamiliar with that, having been the oldest in a family of four, and the only male in that family, I was fairly independent and having to be subjugated to these requirements was demanding in terms of my having to conform to the practices that were being expected of me. That was the worst part that I knew of. Probably another thing would be being out where I was without an automobile. I grew up, as I say, in Whitinsville where I lived out of town about three miles. So, I was used to being in a remote area but I could drive. My folks had a car they would let me use and I could get into town fairly easily and, once there, there was always other transportation you could get as well. At Northfield, there was just absolutely nothing and the closest town was Montpelier, twelve miles away. And also, getting back and forth to school, my folks did not have the resources, the time, or the ability to bring me back and forth to school. There were no commercial transportation convenient. The only way I could get back would be to get a ride from somebody else. And so, that was always at the top of your mind. When you come home, how am I going to get to school? How was I going to get to summer camp, which was down in Georgia? I had no car. I didn't have an automobile until I had started, after graduation, when I started working for Westinghouse, without a car. I had to save up enough money for a down payment to buy one. So, my first few months at work were devoted to saving as much money as I received from my Westinghouse pay to build up enough money to make a down payment on a car, which I finally did. I bought a used car in Whitinsville. I remember it cost $1350. It was a 1949 two-door Ford sedan. I ended up taking it to Japan with me and selling it off over there. Didn't bring it back. Yeah. So, those were the hard parts of school at Norwich. You know, I can recall when I'd get back from Norwich from a vacation, it be in the evening, you'd see the lights up on the hill and I would breathe a sigh of relief, "I'm back home and I'll be safe here when I get home." It ended up sort of like a security blanket. The school prepared me for, it gave me the keys to success. I'm forever pleased and blessed that I ended up going and staying at Norwich actually. It's created a great deal of enjoyment for me over my life. I've had a great post-graduate career and one of the things it taught me was perseverance, life-long education. I wasn't necessarily a brilliant scholar but I ended up getting three master's degrees and a Ph.D. post-Norwich experience and I think Norwich had to have something to do with that motivation to do that. JC: What are your master's degrees in? 10 HG: I have a master's degree, an M.B.A., and I have a master of science and a master of arts, one in human resources and one in labor relations. JC: Okay and where are they from? HG: One is from Shippensburg and one is from Loretto. That's awful. Can you give me a minute? JC: Yes. HG: I have a B.S.E.E. from Norwich, and M.B.A., a Ph.D. from Syracuse, a master's degree from St. Francis College, and a master's degree from Shippensburg University. JC: Okay. HG: The most important degrees for me, of course, was the B.S. in E.E. and the M.B.A. Ph.D. from Syracuse because those influenced what I did with my life more importantly. The other two degrees were done because of what I felt I needed to be effective in the classroom that I subsequently taught and administered the programs in at both Penn State and at UMASS Dartmouth. JC: Oh. Okay. Let's see. What was your favorite part of Norwich? HG: Favorite what? Part? JC: Part. HG: Part of Norwich? JC: Mm hmm. HG: What do you mean by part? JC: What did you like most about it? HG: Well, I would like the day I graduated was the most favorite part for me. I had my entire family there, extended family. We rented a whole motel. I was the keystone person that ever graduated in Johnson and Gilmore family. As I mentioned, the size is extensive and I remember quite a few relatives to follow, cousins and so forth. That was an occasion that I really, it was a success for me because I went there thinking, "I've got to graduate. I cannot fail." And I hadn't even though that last semester I had to take that extra course to make it through. I did it. And then the fact that it prepared me. I left the place with a job. I had a commission. I got a deferment for ten months so I could go to work for Westinghouse and get some industrial experience before I went in the military. Stayed in the military for my, 11 well I went in for two years but I extended because I got special weapons training with atomic weapons and I was there for close to three years total. Could have stayed longer. I was asked to stay longer but for family purposes I, stayed in the Reserve though. I retired from the military and I made it well up to the rank of colonel which I felt was something I never expected either and I think Norwich prepared me for that sort of experience, knowing how to behave and accept responsibility and perform the duties that I was required up to a successful level, satisfactory level. So, the best day at Norwich was indeed the day I graduated because it marked a major milestone in my life. Just as the first day I went there marked a major milestone. JC: What was the most important thing that Norwich taught you? HG: I think to be respectful of others and to take life-long learning seriously and to be persevering in what you're trying to accomplish. Norwich's motto is "I Will Try." So, any opportunity that came along for me, I seized upon. I was outwardly looking, several Fulbrights, quite a bit of overseas experience, along with my family, and I think Norwich prepared me for that by having an overseas assignment that was one of my first, the only one I had as a lieutenant was in Japan. And I got to like other cultures and so forth. I pursued that in Africa, Europe, and other places. As a matter of fact, I was contemplating a trip to China this year. JC: Oh. Really? HG: Yeah. I think I may go to China. I got the quotation and everything. One of the things I have to clarify is that both my wife and I's status health-wise to make sure that we're fit to go. I think we both will be allowed to do that from a medical perspective. The only thing remaining is making the commitment. JC: Mm hmm. HG: So, yeah. We're looking forward to that. We've gone on a number of cruises in the meantime to Alaska, the Mediterranean, the Caribbean, Alaska. So, we engaged travel, so I think the military and the Norwich environment has cultivated that sort of orientation to our lifestyle. JC: You mentioned "I Will Try." What did it mean to you as a student? HG: What did it mean to me when? JC: As a student. HG: As a student? Probably not much. I don't think you really appreciate that. I appreciate it more now that I've graduated and look back on things. I think, one of the things, it's not "I Will Try" so much but "I Will Stick to It!" 12 JC: Mm hmm. HG: I will not quit! I was amazed at the number of freshman, matriculated freshman that left Norwich the day they had to get a short haircut. JC: Mm hmm. HG: I, fortunately, grew up every summer having my head sheared off with what we used to call a Harvard clip. So, it didn't bother me to have to have it cut another eighth of an inch off. But these fellows that came up with the golden curls that had to get sheared said no and left. I wasn't going to give up. If Norwich's moral had been "I Won't Give Up," it would have been more appropriate than "I Will Try" in my case. "I Will Not Give Up." JC: What does Partridge's idea of a citizen soldier mean to you? HG: Well, it means to me that I'd like to see conscription come back. That's how much meaning it has to me. I think everyone should have a requirement to do some public service of some sort, not necessarily military but some kind of public service to build a concept of patriotism and to embed the value systems that our country stands for in their lives, personal lives. And so, the citizen soldier concept, I thought that Partridge had was just that. A person has a responsibility for his country, his family, and the two can coexist. JC: Mm hmm. HG: So, that's what that means to me, to be part of the process as an individual. JC: Mm hmm. Do you remember any funny stories from when you were at Norwich? HG: I'm sure Fred told you a funny story, the time I came up and down on the dumbwaiter at his surprise. He wondered, "Where was Harry?" And I said, "Here I am!" And I was inside the dumbwaiter cage! Laughs. That was a comedy. The other thing was the, not so much of a story but incident, was the time I repeated earlier about the horseback riding incident. That was a humorous event. I don't recall any other thing comes to mind at the moment. I'm sure there probably were numerous other events that happened that created some humor but I don't recall any right now. JC: So, what did you do after graduation? I know you went to work at Westinghouse. HG: Yeah. I went to work for Westinghouse immediately upon graduation. Had a job before I graduated. And then, I took a deferment from, Westinghouse gave me a deferment for about ten months because I did have the two-year obligation as a commissioned officer. So, then I went in the military and got asked if I were 13 interested in taking a special weapons training. That's the atomic weapons training. I got a Q clearance and so forth. And I went to Sandia Base. While there, a unit, 261st ordinance detachment was formed. I became the first commanding officer for, until such time as the captain showed up to take over the reins. I was in individual training. Didn't finish that. Went in to unit training, the 261st trained with the 5th field artillery battalion for deployment to Japan which, incidentally, at that time was against the peace treaty that we had signed with Japan. We're not supposed to bring any new armament into the country but we did. We brought in nuclear weapons. We used to have a little difficulty, the artillery did, going out to the range and firing it off. I went there and did some field exercises in Iwo Jima in Okinawa. While there, got to talking to a gentleman at KU Ammunition Depot Bar one evening and he was leaving for Syracuse University for the comptrollers' program there. And he says, "Harold, you ought to think about getting your M.B.A." And I said, "Well, what's that?" He says, "It's a master's degree in business administration. It's a great topping off of your electrical engineering degree and it's highly sought after people." Now, this was back in 1957, '57, '58. So, I put in for an early release. It was like eight months early. They weren't going to let me go until I got some congressional involvement by Saltonstall and he facilitated my departure from the military. I didn't give up my commission. I just went in the Reserve. And so, I went to Syracuse at that time. Got my master's degree. Went back to work for Westinghouse. Worked for AVCO in the reentry vehicle business, the Apollo program. And from there, I decided to go on to Syracuse. I got a three-year fellowship for a Ph.D. program in organizational behavior and operations management. So, I took that, went there, gave up my work, sold my home, took my family to Syracuse. Again, very, in retrospect, very risky situation. A lot of people start out looking for a Ph.D. and they never get it. I was told when I arrived, I had a very good advisor, a fellow who I had as an M.B.A. faculty member, Dr. Seimer. He said, "Harold, you do not leave this campus without that Ph.D. because you'll never get it if you do." So, I says, "All right, Dr. Seimer. I will not leave." So, I stayed there and I got the doctorate and left them. In my first job, I was planning to go back to work for AVCO because I was in a research and development division where higher degree were, of course, very prominent. JC: Mm hmm. HG: Well, and they had said, "Well, maybe there might be an opening for you when you get through." Well, three years is a long time and everybody changed chairs there. There didn't seem to be anything open for me so I took a job with the University of North Dakota at Minot Air Force Base in the Air Force Institute of Technology program. The AFIT program. We transferred their master of engineering degree to an M.B.A. degree while I was there and I was there for a couple of years. And from there, I transferred to Penn State University and I was at the Middletown campus. My office overlooked Three Mile Island. I was there for sixteen years, I believe. I did teach up at State College one semester. Then, for family reasons, I left Penn State. I was tenured and everything but I left Penn 14 State and came to UMASS Dartmouth here for family reasons, health reasons. And I did ten years over here. At that point in time, I retired from UMASS but, in the meantime, had picked up some work for the University of South Pacific at Fiji. So, I worked off and on during a five-year period in the year 2000 over there. JC: Okay. HG: Currently, I am volunteering at the National Graduate School of Quality Management here in Falmouth, which is an online type program. I am the director of the alumni program, which they've never had before. So, it's an experiment and it may be a futile activity but I'm giving it the best go I can give it as a Norwich guy. I'm not alumni but I'm their director. I'm modelling it after the Norwich Alumni Association. As a matter of fact, I used Norwich's bylaws in modifying to try to make them fit this school's program. So, that's where I am to this moment and I don't know how much longer that'll last. I've been doing it for a couple years now and probably give it another, 2017 may be my last year of doing that. Depends upon what my success is this year. JC: Well, you've had a lot of schooling. How did your training at Norwich prepare you for life, specifically? HG: Very well. Very well. In retrospect, I wouldn't have it any other way. It taught me to roll with the punches. You can't have everything your way all the time. To get along, you've got to go along and cooperate and you graduate. I think, probably, the teamwork idea was imbedded, not so much in a pointed way but in an overall way of existing and finishing up your, what you started. We had to work with other people. I started out as an individual and I think I came out as a person who understood that to get along in this world, you're going to have to work with other people and depend upon other people. Now, I probably, even to this day, I'm a volunteer and I know that I have, I have no resources. I have no budget. I don't have even office space, so to speak, except out of the house. Working with some adult people over here and I know that I depend upon them for everything I get done and I acknowledge that very, very fully to the best extent I can. Because I know that their cooperation, my success depends upon them. Without them, I'll die on the vine. I think Norwich has taught me that concept. Oh! I think I didn't mention to you. You probably were aware of this. I created, for the bicentennial, a puzzle. JC: Yes! You did. HG: You're aware of that? So, I put that together. JC: Mm hmm. 15 HG: And, you know, the thing is, the way that transpired, nobody seemed to want me to do it. Sometimes, that rubs me the wrong way. So, I says, "I don't care if you don't want me to do it. I'm going to do it anyway!" JC: Yeah. HG: So, I did it and quite amazed at how it turned out! There's a gentleman next door who's a graphic artist and he's good on the computer. That's what he does for a living. I got the university photographer, they let me access the photographs. I picked and chose some photographs, brought them over to Sean. I said, "Sean, what can you do for me?" He says, "Let me see those." So, we looked. He says, "I'll have something for you tomorrow." He brought over the thing. "What do you think of that?" Well, we made some adjustments and so forth. My wife has a friend who does puzzles and she brought over to our house a wooden puzzle that she had bought for the Lilly family, the big drug people here in Falmouth, a lot of property and donor, a very big benefactor. I said, "Maybe we could have a wooden puzzle for what I've created for Norwich." So, I contacted a guy in Connecticut and he says, "Yeah. If you're willing to pay the price, I can make that for you. No problem." So, I says, "Okay. Let's go with that." I've even gone down there and I've even worked the puzzle thing myself. My wife and I watched him make, it's an example of his work. Got that done. Made a contact overseas. Got somebody to stamp out those puzzles. I bought four dozen of them. Gave them to the school and said, "Use them at will." Then, I gave Sullivan, no, I gave Schneider a wooden one and I think he turned it over to the, the wooden one I gave him because I didn't want it. What was it going to do with me? So, I gave to him and he put it in the museum, I think. JC: It's at the museum. HG: It was a labor of love. That's all. I just did it because I didn't find the support that I thought I might have gotten from the bicentennial committee but they had bigger items on their agenda. This was not going to fit into the program, I guess. And then, I was involved, at one time, with a committee on postage stamps and I had done a lot of work and I was really disappointed. I got mixed messages from U.S. Postal Service as to whether the images that I submitted weren't, "They're fine. We're going to submit them for postmaster consideration." Then, I get a message from somebody else on the committee saying, "No. We're not." And you can't reach anybody on that committee because they're, you just don't have any contact information for them except maybe names. But now I understand that they did release, or rerelease of the Alden Partridge stamp for the ROTC commemorative. They said that now Schneider's got himself behind the request for a Norwich postcard set which is what they usually do. I think if they don't do something for Norwich for the bicentennial, there's got to be something wrong in Washington. I hope they follow through. I sort of dropped out of the picture because it's now gone beyond my involvement. But I filed all the paperwork and everything else necessary for that. Hopefully, we'll see something come to pass. 16 JC: Hopefully so. HG: Yeah. I was told that one the things, they said, "Well, you've got to get the postmaster in Northfield involved. And I said, "Well, I'm not in a position to do that. You're right there in town." The bicentennial committee itself could just go to the postmaster and say, "We want to issue the stamp." And if he supports it, I guess, or postcards, they don't, the stamps are a little more dicey to get through. But the postcards are pretty easy to do, I guess. So, maybe, we'll see what happens. I don't know. I've lost touch with that group. The last I heard was that they upgraded the applications or something by getting Schneider's support and some other people supporting it too. That'll be good. JC: Yeah. Hopefully, that'll work out. HG: Yeah. JC: Well, that's about your involvement with Norwich. HG: Mm hmm. JC: How do you think your professional life would have been different had you not been a Norwich graduate? HG: Oh, dear. Tremendously different because Norwich set me on a military career. It set me up for a military lifestyle, in a way, although I didn't go there with that idea at all nor did I graduate with that but it just sort of grew on you. I can recall, being a reservist, I would say, "Well, maybe I'll just stop going. I'll just give up." One year led to another year and before I knew it I had thirty years and six months and I was boarded out. I got considered for general officer and I didn't make it. I understood why. My competitor, I knew who that person was and a lot of stuff on his chest that I, ribbons on his chest that I didn't have and I figured he was more entitled to it or earned it more than I did. He had combat time. I didn't have any combat time at all. I was in a war zone, Korean War, but that was over practically. So, I think Norwich set me up for that whole aspect of my life. The academic part of it came about, my industrial area was focused on my engineering experience and math and science and so forth. And then, my academic life, all the way from doing some consulting work and so forth and having the idea of a continuous learning environment. I just kept on going to school, both militarily and civilian-wise. I took many, many a correspondence program. I went to Fort Leavenworth to the Command and General Staff School. I taught Command and General Staff School. I taught at the Army War College in Carlisle, both as a military faculty member and as an academic Penn State, because we had a program with them. JC: Right. 17 HG: You know, I'm amazed at the kinds of things I got involved in and I attribute it all to Norwich. If I had gone to URI like I wanted to heavens knows what I would have become, if I ever graduated. Or if I'd gone on to Georgia Tech, I might have failed out! Who knows? Norwich kept me going. I did hit the dean's list a couple times while at Norwich but I was no stellar student. Sullivan and I share one common thread. We both were privates for four years. JC: Yep. HG: And, you know, I'm not proud of that but we survived. He did very well militarily, obviously. Much better than I did! He got, what, four stars. I got the eagle but, nevertheless, I think that Norwich did us both very well. JC: I think so too. Has being a Norwich graduate opened doors for you that might not have been opened otherwise? HG: I thought, militarily, yes. Yeah. I can clearly recall early on in my career, when I was living up in North Andover. I was in the Reserve unit in Boston. The fellow that was in command of that unit, he loved Norwich guys. So, I got signed to his unit. Having somebody who was favorably disposed to where you're from certainly is helpful in the image that you are going to create if you live up to the person's perception of the school. JC: Right. HG: And I did very well. So, I think that opened me up for captain and major level of consideration. From then on, it was, an interesting little thing was when I worked for Penn State, I had a student by the name of Emmett Page. He was one of the Army War College students that were taking the master's program at Penn State. I was a faculty member, teaching him a course and I was over at the graduate program over there, teaching in their program, the military. Came time for me to have an assignment, as a colonel. Guess who I ended up being assigned to? JC: Emmett Page? HG: General Page. Laughs. He was in charge of the electronic research and development command in Adelphi, Maryland. I was his assistant. JC: Oh. Wow. HG: So, I got an assistant commander position with him as a colonel. I'd go down there and he'd say, "Harold," because I was in quality, he says, "I got some contracts out there. I want you to go to these contractors and see what they're doing and jack them up if they need jacking up." Laughs.) I had a great relationship with Emmett. I followed up with him a little bit afterwards. He was 18 my former student, was now my boss. I was grading him and now he was grading me! It's a small world. JC: Yes. It is! HG: Another interesting situation too was, we're in Japan, my wife and I together, concurrent travel. We'd had a major social event in Tokyo. I don't know what level it was, battalion, it wasn't a battalion party. It had to be higher up than that, maybe a Sullivan Theater type thing. Anyway, we went to it and who do we run in to? Colonel Burkle. Burkle was on campus at the time and his greeting to me and my wife when we got together, "Lieutenant Gilmore, your brass is shiny." Laughs. I says, "You can thank Mrs. Gilmore for that." See, most of my fun happened after I got out of Norwich. Yeah, Colonel Burkle. I think he was a colonel at the time. "Your brass is shiny." I said, "Yep. Thank Mrs. Gilmore for that." Oh, dear. I could go on and on and on, I guess. Been a long time. JC: Mm hmm. Do you think Norwich graduates have a special bond that other people don't? HG: Oh! Definitely! Definitely! Oh, yes. I see it in my children who graduated from Penn State. There's nothing like, these online programs, there's no bonding at all! JC: Right. HG: It's like dealing with particles in the air, dust particles, but Norwich, that experience there puts you into close proximity with other people. It served me so well. Al Gardner, I talked with on the phone all the time. Up until Garry Moushegian's demise, he died up in Norwood, MA, with him all the time. Fred Maier, Jack Gillis passed away. My roommate, Bartlett, Jack Gillis, Garry Mousehegian, they all died within a matter of months of each other. I lost all my, so now there's just Fred left and Al Gardner. So, I've got two very close friends. Other people I know but not quite as, as I said, we socially went everywhere with each other, cruises and all that stuff, you know. Families knew each other. Kids knew each other and stuff of that nature. So, yes. Norwich does create a separate, a special relationship, I think, amongst us graduates. JC: Mm hmm. Um, let me see. We've already answered that question. HG: Mm hmm. JC: Um, you've just answered that question. What advice would you give a rook about how to survive and thrive at Norwich? HG: Go with the flow. Join the program full heartedly. Don't fight it. Join it. And see what you can do to excel in it. 19 JC: Mm hmm. HG: I probably chose, I wouldn't say the opposite path but I resisted. I resisted the program and suffered for it, without getting any rank and you don't get ahead in the world that way. You're going to participate in the program and probably if you can't do that full heartedly, you might do better elsewhere. It's not a place for everybody, the military part of it anyway, the Corp. Now that Norwich has a civilian component, you know, Norwich is a nice school and it's a nice environment and Vermont's a pleasant place to enjoy the winter months and so forth. Can't complain about the environment. If you like a rural environment, it's fine. And I grew up in a rural environment so I didn't really rail at that sort of thing. Although, I sent my granddaughter up there for a campus visit and she came back, "Gramp, the place is not for me." She says, "I'm going to be a minority." I said, "What do you mean?" She says, "Well, I'm not going to join the Corp. I'm going to be a civilian. Right now, I detect that they're a minority up there." JC: Mm hmm. HG: I says, "Well, it's a wise maneuver not to go there. You've got to be happy where you are to do the best you can do." My advice to a rook is you've got to decide whether you're going to be happy in this environment or not. If you are, you'll do well. If not, you're not going to do as well. You might get through, but you won't be the success that you could be maybe someplace else. I have two grandsons. I've got three grandsons but two older ones. I tried to talk them into going to Norwich. Mother was not military-oriented and things were not so, we were at war. We've been at war for so long they don't know what it's like to be without it but she didn't think that was the thing to do. I do have a grandson here locally but he's going to Mass Maritime Academy. JC: Oh. Okay. HG: So, he's quasi-military, in a way. I think that he'll finish that program up in two or three years. He didn't want to go to Norwich either. I don't know why. I don't think he gave it a chance, because he likes to ski. He's an outdoors boy. He would do well. He's got the military bearing and so forth, but he chose the Maritime as a place to go. He did hear that employment opportunities were greatest at Mass Maritime and they are. You graduate from that place, you get a job. JC: Mm hmm. HG: If you've got anything going for you at all. Norwich used to be able to say, "You're going to get a commission." But that's not true anymore either. JC: No. It's not. 20 HG: The place is not going to sell itself with providing a vocation after you're through. Where this place practically does. So, he was encouraged to go. It's local and so forth. JC: Yeah. So, you didn't have any relatives that attended Norwich? HG: Hmm? JC: You didn't have any relatives that attended Norwich? HG: No. I didn't. I don't have anybody that went to Norwich. No. None of them. JC: Well, is there anything else? HG: No. By golly, we've had quite an enjoyable interview. I've had some fun talking to you. I can't think of much more. JC: Well, I thank you very much. HG: I enjoyed it. Thank you, too. End of recording.

Jayeson Vance Leading Tour at Alcatraz, 2012 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Jayeson Vance. The interview was conducted on October 10, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Jayeson discusses memories of Ogden and 25th Street. ; 35p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Jayeson P. Vance Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 10 October 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Jayeson P. Vance Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 10 October 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Vance, Jayeson, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 10 October 2013 , WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Jayeson Vance Leading Tour at Alcatraz 2012 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Jayeson Vance. The interview was conducted on October 10, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Jayeson discusses memories of Ogden and 25th Street. LR: Today is October 10, 2013 doing a phone interview with Mr. Jayeson Vance who is currently residing in San Francisco, about 25th street and Ogden. My name is Lorrie Rands and I will be conducting the interview. Jayeson, I, again, appreciate your time and your willingness to help us out with this. Let's begin with the simple basics of when and where were you born? JV: I was born at the old St. Benedict's hospital on 29th and Polk in Ogden, on June 26, 1947. LR: Where did you reside, where was your home in Ogden? JV: Our home was, when I was a boy, we were, first we lived in a post war housing, emergency housing for the GI's. My dad was at Hill Field as an Air Force Sergeant, an Army Air Corp Sergeant. That was at the old Bonneville Park, as they used to call it. It was an old cinder block, post war or emergency housing that, I don't know who paid for, probably the federal government. Then they, at some point around 1950 or 51, they destroyed those homes and we, my dad was able to get a home on 1362 Hudson, between 5th and 6th on, at just above Harrison, and we were just a quarter block below Polk. That's where I spent my early years and then we later moved to 108 Harrison, at first and Harrison. LR: So was Harrison at that time, was it paved all the way through? 1 JV: Yes, Harrison was paved, Hudson was primitive, it was unpaved, thank you for asking. We actually did not even have a phone in the house and my mother had to walk to Hudson and Polk, to a little phone booth as did all the neighbors in order to place a phone call. Actually, it seems funny now, and the street was dirt and it had a curb and gutter but it didn't have the sidewalks and it didn't have, you know, it was very primitive. It was like living out on the frontier in a way, and my grandfather used to say, "You can hear the coyotes at night up there where you live." He lived on 256 Harrisville Road which is still there, that structure is still standing. LR: You grew up then in that part of Ogden? JV: Yea, on that northeast bench, I went to Ben Lomond High and then my dad had gone to Weber and my mother, actually my mother was a USU graduate. I just said, "Well," I couldn't decide what to do after I graduated from Ben Lomond, so I decided on Weber, which was a great choice. I was pleased with, I always thought it had the best—a lot of people say about Weber that we had better professors than bigger schools because you didn't have teaching assistants teaching classes, you had Ph.D.'s teaching classes quite often and so I think in some ways we got a much better education at Weber than people maybe at the University of Utah had in some ways, so anyway, it was a good time to go to Weber. I briefly was the sophomore class president for a brief while, filled in for Mike Howe I believe was his name, cause he couldn't finish his term. My name at that time, I changed my name in 1982, and my born name was Clark Walker. So that's always strange, and I have to explain that, that I 2 changed my name. I was one of those kids that had kind of an identity crisis and so my legal name is Jayson P. Vance. I don't know how much you want to know about my personal life, but just to explain, if you look me up, you'll find me under Clark Walker. Weber State records, well, except I changed my diploma reads Jayeson Vance now, so I had that changed. LR: So, I'm just curious, why did you choose Jayeson Vance? JV: It was just one of those things that I had a friend who was a counselor, which said, "It's time for a change." I had just left a federal job and I wanted a new start in life and she said, "This would be a good time to change." She had done this to, she had changed her name and she said, "I don't know, it's great," and she was able to persuade me that I should do it. Then once you do that, and we'd had a house so we had to change the mortgage records so then and I had to go to court, to district court and officially change my name by law. I can't ever use the old name again and legally, so anyway, I have, for better or worse, that's my name. So I just have to accept that. In some ways I felt shouldn't be changing that because it's my family history, but then as I researched my family history, I found out that my father's father, who was an English immigrant during World War I, which is kind of odd, how do you get to where my father was born in California? It's a long story, but his father deserted the family, his name was reputedly, Sylvester Hodgson Walker. He deserted this mother and this infant boy, who was my father and said, "I'm a British subject, I don't want to have a kid." And he ran off to Canada, and he said, "You can't touch me, I'm a British subject." I don't even really know the man's name, I never saw a picture of him 3 and it's one of these great mysteries of life that I would love to see at least what he looked like and how did he end up in California during World War One. The British would have wanted any young man to be in the Army or something and so it's a—was his name really Walker, you know, all these mysteries like that. I didn't feel troubled about dropping the name Walker, so that's, anyway, we got off on a tangent. LR: No, that's great, I asked so, let's go ahead and go back then. You said that your dad worked at Hill Field as a sergeant in the Army Air Corps, what did your mom do? JV: My mother was a teacher in her later years, well, when they were first married she was a school teacher, then she dropped her job as a teacher to be a house wife and about 1959 she went back to Ogden public schools, worked at Edison school teaching second grade. Her name was Bonnie Ruth Murphy Walker and she passed away this month, just earlier this month, ten years ago the start of this month, she's been dead 10 years now. The family is all gone, my brother, my father and my mother are all gone and my wife and I live here. LR: You're kind of cutting out on me. JV: Oh, maybe if I hold the microphone up closer here. LR: I'm not sure if it's you or if it's me. That seems to be better, okay. I hate it when I get off on my flow. As you were growing up, what were some of the things you liked to do for fun? JV: I used to draw maps of the city actually. I loved history form early on. I read Land Mark Books, I was a boy scout. I got an Eagle Scout Award, I was an Eagle 4 Scout. I was very interested in police and crime, the FBI. I wanted to be an FBI agent at one time and I studied the history of, I was reading adult literature written for adults about the FBI, you know like the FBI story by Glen Whitehead I think it is, when I was twelve. I was trying to—it was not easy to read—but I was trying and I was just obsessed with that stuff and I saw the world very black and white, in a very black and white way. I remember giving—I had some really conservative, very, very conservative opinions about law and order and I wanted to—we had some milk stolen and I wanted my mother so badly to call the police department because I wanted to look at a real policeman in the face and we hardly had any crime in that area. I was so excited that was my amusement, anything to do with law and order or police, any TV show, Texas Rangers or Broderick Crawford, who starred in California Highway Patrol or anything like that. The Lone Ranger and all that stuff, I just loved all that. We played Army, it was post World War Two so we had, almost everybody I knew was the son or the daughter of a GI or a sailor from World War Two or a Marine. We had tons of Army Men and toys about World War Two and I had a whole Army and Navy set of toys that I just spent hours with. Then we would—the little kids in the neighborhood—we'd organize into tiny army, little army training things. Then I would build little model cities in the back yard with rocks and build a highway. I had a lot of fun doing that. I made a model of Ben Lomond peak at one time in my back yard out of clay and rocks and so I had a lot of fun as for Mount Ben Lomond and all that. I tried to make of Ogden out of rocks but it was a little over whelming. 5 LR: I'll bet. So did you ever have the chance to meet any Ogden Police officers when you were younger? JV: Yea, one of my friends, Gary Greenwood, became a police officer in Ogden and he and I were golfing buddies for quite a while, and I met him, just before I moved out of Ogden—I got married and moved away, I remember seeing him in his uniform with his shoes all polished. I was so proud of him and I so wished that I could be like him, be a policeman, but I never became a policeman, I became a park ranger. Not quite the same, but he was just kind of an inspiration when I saw him standing there with his highly polished shoes and his nice neat uniform and he was very proud of it, rightly so. I lost track of him, I would like to talk to him again but I tried to locate him on the internet and he was a probation officer for a while and I couldn't find any more about him. I haven't, if you know him or anybody knows him, I would love to talk to him. He was a great guy. I'm just joining the auxiliary law enforcement team here for the San Francisco police, I just applied to join that. It's a volunteer position, but my fantasy, my interest in crime and law and order has been lifelong. I guess it's no wonder I ended up on Alcatraz. LR: Did you ever hang out downtown? JV: Yea, we did, one of my stronger memories, my father would take me, well my father was a—after he left the Army Air Corps, he became a postman at the main post office and then later Gorder's station as they used to call the post office over there on the bench. He was, his route was the businesses along 25th and along Washington. He was the downtown postman, and he would drive all the 6 packages, they didn't have a UPS, and he would do all the package deliveries all over downtown. He was a gun lover, he loved guns and there was a gun shop on 25th that he loved to go to. He knew 25th very well, he knew the Porters and Waiters Club, he took me into the Depot Drug and there was some girly magazines one time. Oh, it was a little embarrassing, I was going through puberty. Oh we looked at those girly magazines a little bit, but that was among little things like that that I remember. Depot Drug was a hive of activity. It was scary, it was frightening, but it was exciting also. They had these barrels of toys. I loved anything with a plastic army man, or army soldiers like that, and they had just piles of that stuff. Even in the front window, or I think it could even have been on the sidewalk, I could remember my heart just pounding about it, and I only got to go in there a couple of times, but it was a just a hive of excitement. There was also a fear about 25th of course, the legend of all the possibility of heroin and prostitution and all those things that were going on around there. I could even I guess sense it in my father that he was a little bit on edge, but he never had anyone bother him or threaten him in any way while he was delivering mail. He had some rude business people that were pretty rude to him, you know, kind of abusive, but he didn't ever have any threats. He was very close with the black community in Ogden, he knew a lot of the black folks and he was very pro civil rights and he felt that they had gotten the bad end of the deal. The Porters and Waiters Club was famous, of course, for the railroad porters that worked on the Union Pacific that brought Jazz to Ogden. 7 It was also a street of sin certainly. Later in life, my best man at my wedding was Arnie Jacobson and his father was chief Jacobson of the Ogden police. Arnie told me some stories, but these are now second hand stories that he got from his father, so I don't have direct access to that information but it came through Arnie. His father put on black face because they didn't have any black police officers and went down onto 25th to purchase heroine, because the dealers on 25th were black. They did make some arrests and the Ogden police were known as the toughest police in Utah because of the street, because of patrolling 25th street they had to be tougher than the Salt Lake police, according to Arnie anyway. They would have this annual football, I believe football game between the Ogden Police and the Salt Lake police and the Ogden police would always win because they had to be tougher, even though it was a smaller department by far than the Salt Lake department. It really had quite a story there, I mean you could write a lot of, I could easily see someone writing a novel or a historical novel about it. Maybe that's what I should do, I don't know. Then my mother told me about working at the Union Laundry but she did all that Union Pacific linen as a young woman. She was a pretty young brunette and her father, Clarence Murphy, would warn her, he was a Union Pacific engineer. "Now Bonnie, you get down to Washington Boulevard and get on that street car and you run to Washington Boulevard," or somebody told her, or she told me that she was so scared on 25th that she ran all the way from Wall Avenue to Washington Boulevard as fast as she could run to get to Washington Boulevard to where she felt safe, and then get on the street car to go north to 8 Harrisville Road where they lived. She had a palpable fear of that street but she again never had anything happen to her so it just, there's a lot of stuff about that street. I've seen that, I don't know you've probably seen that DVD that that fellow put out about the history of Ogden I imagine. Are you aware of that one? LR: Yes, The one that was in 2007 or 11, not too long ago? Yes. JV: They explained that, I guess they alleged that Al Capone may have been on 25th, which I've never found any—I tried because I studied Al Capone quite a bit having been on Alcatraz where he was locked up for about five years, and I've never found any evidence, have you? To support that he was ever there. LR: I haven't, the only thing I have heard about are the rumors. JV: Yea, it's just legendary. When I worked on Alcatraz we'd have people from Canada and Saskatchewan Province was a place where he was reputed to have been. Oh, Al Capone, you hear this all the time, in Wisconsin he went to honey lodges and it is conceivable that he may have been in Ogden that he was really on, and it was called Little Chicago at one point. It was one of the nick names of Ogden, of that area of Ogden as you may know already. Of course, today, it's a very different street than it was and I'm looking at a picture of it right now, a modern picture. I guess there were some movies made there with that famous noddle parlor sign? LR: Yea, the Star Noodle, the one with the dragon? JV: There was a little China town there too of course, from the Chinese workers on the railroad. My grandfather, as a boy, his mother died when he was a youngster and his father was of course a railroad worker too, an engineer, and he was 9 basically raised himself on the streets. This would have been about 1900 or 1905 around in that era, used to run opium on a bicycle around China, the little Ogden, and helped these opium dealers. It was legal at that time to sell opium, and he would, as reprehensible as it sounds now, would sell opium to the Chinese, and make a little money that way, because they didn't have much money. He and his sister and his father, no mother, were kind of, you know, they had some kind of rough edges in his early years, and he remembered being pretty mean to some of the Chinese as a teenage boy, pulling there queue's. They used to wear their hair in queue's on the back of their head, doing some mean things like that and of course the Chinese were abused everywhere. Out here in San Francisco they were abused even more. The word Chink was frequently passed around. It was a racist time it was not fun to be black or Chinese in those days. It was rough for a lot of people. LR: So did you ever witness any of that discrimination in that part of Ogden? JV: No, that was way before my time. I think it went underground, I'm sure there was a feeling that Asians were odd or you know, they were kind of a curiosity. I don't remember. We used to eat at the Utah Noodle Parlor a lot and have the other—I forget the other noodle parlor name on Grant there. We used to, and we enjoyed all the food, the chop suey and all those things. So you'd hear little remarks like that, that were racists but it was, and of course it was. My grandfather had actually been a member of the Klan when he was a youngster. He had no education, he was brought up on the streets and he picked up whatever he picked up, and he picked up a lot of racists attitudes. I remember he, as a young 10 man—he wasn't that in his older years—but as a young man, there was a Klu Klux Klan Chapter there in Ogden. The Klan was all over the United States if you study the history of the Klan and it was very powerful in the early twenties and that's about the time he was starting his family. My grandfather was out there on Harrisville Road, but he I guess they had some Klan meetings up on the foothills in the early twenties where they burned crosses and stuff up on the foothills above. You can imagine how it must have felt to be a black person and see that going on, especially a tiny minority, there in that part of the world. A feeling, you must have been pretty much an emotional, a very unpleasant emotional experience anyway for a black or an Asian too. I think they were pretty mean to Asians, the Klan was, as well. He never said much about that, he did express racist attitudes which were part of that generation, occasionally. I had that wonderful contrast in my father who just really loved the black folks in Ogden. Marshall White, the police officer who was killed there, who was a hero of the police department. After they finally got a black officer, and then he got killed, but it was a rough town. There was somewhat open prostitution, if I remember, right along parts of Grant Avenue and Lincoln Avenue. Even in my early years, even as late as maybe 19, probably about 1970 even, there was still open prostitution going on, it was very limited, but it was there. As I've studied the street I know there was a back alley that ran heroin and a tunnel that ran heroin from the depot all along, I think on the north side of the street. Maybe that tunnel is still there, I've seen 11 some references that indicate that the tunnel went all the way to the Ben Lomond Hotel apparently. Are you aware of that? LR: I'm aware more of the rumors. JV: I saw something online about historic tunnel tours of Ogden and they, if I remember correctly were going into the basement of the Ben Lomond Hotel and somebody was leading a ghost tour or something like that. They were able to go under Washington Boulevard possibly and they said, "Well, who knows." Of course they want to enlarge everything and make it more exciting so they bring in Al Capone and all that. The danger of history is always that somebody tries to enlarge things or exaggerate things. I was never able to see that myself and I didn't even know, I'd heard rumors about it but I've never been in it. LR: Well I know that most of the businesses now have closed up there tunnels, so most of the people we have talked to, yea, it's possible, but now they're all closed up so. But yea, we've had a lot of references to them, a lot of people that remember being down in them, but none actually going form Ben Lomond to the depot. We can't actually verify that, so. It's fun to hear about though. JV: Well that was the big fancy hotel, I guess the Ben Lomond was built about 1927, and being a big, the highest building in town and anybody who wanted a prostitute probably would have wanted to bring them in underground into the hotel or something like that, or wanted maybe drugs and happened to be at the hotel. It does kind of make sense if you were in the, in the world of vice and you had money enough to stay in a nice room there and you wanted something, knowing the hotel business as I do, because I worked with it for a while here, 12 there are people in the hotels are bribable a lot of times, and if you want—they want some cash and if you have the cash, they'll find a way to get you what you want. Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised, I don't have any evidence of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was something like that going on. LR: I wouldn't be surprised either. Do you remember any of the people that used to live or work on 25th street? JV: Yes. Well, my mother worked at the Union Laundry I guess it was called as a— this would have been—she was born in 1919, so it would have been roughly around the time she graduated from Ogden High in 1938. So she was working at the Union Laundry, and that's where that tale about running down the street as fast as she could run, her heart pounding came from, that era. And then my grandfather, Clarence Patrick Murphy, a real Irish name, half Danish, but in fact his mother was Danish. He was working there from about age 16 and he was born about 1885 I believe, so he would have been there about 1901 and he was already working as a fireman as a teenage boy. He couldn't finish school, at Sacred Heart School on upper 25th where he went. He would bend over all the way to Wyoming shoveling coal. He told a tale later that even as a 16 year old boy of working with his back bent to shovel coal all the way from Ogden to Evanston and back just almost constantly shoveling coal to get up that grade to that high plateau in Wyoming. It was not the life that any of us would want to live I am sure, to spend back breaking hours to make a living. He was a devoted member of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineman and Firemen throughout his life and was a lifelong democrat of course, because of the 13 Democrats alliance with the labor unions. He was also one of the shop stewards of the Union Pacific in his later years. He also worked on the old Oregon Shortline Railroad, which was, he fondly would say, "Oregon Shortline," and his eyes would drift off as he thought about it. I guess the Oregon Shortline was, ran from Ogden to Pocatello, if I'm not mistaken, and didn't obviously it didn't go all the way to Oregon. He was the switching engineer which would be, he would build trains by bringing cars from one train and hauling them to join another train and then back and forth all day in the yards of Ogden. He'd go over those yards, and of course today, there's even I guess some activity there, but back in those days the yards were just a hive of energy and the sound of the rails and the squeaking of the iron against iron and you would hear all the noises associated with all that. The station where I went as, this would have been approximately 1955. My grandmother, my California grandmother, my father's mother, would come up from across the Lucin Cutoff across the Great Salt Lake on the Union Pacific from Promontory Point to West Weber and she would, we'd meet her at the Union Station whenever she'd come to visit us. That's where I got to see the Union Station quite a bit as a boy. There would be three or four taxi cabs, several cars coming and going and people were dressed—in those days the women wore gloves and hats and high heels all the time and the men wore business suits and big fedora hats. The railway express, REA railway express agency had a large outlet in the foyer of the station. 14 Just going in to the foyer of the Union Depot was to me, one of the most exciting things of my childhood because I would go in there and look around and seeing people coming and going, people making orders and carrying tickets, porters carrying baggage and porters with red caps on and white uniforms and white jackets. All black men, the only black people I had ever seen at that time in my life were down in the depot. Sorry, I get a little emotional sometimes when I'm talking about these things. I have to take a breath here for a moment. There was a very busy barbershop with an old fashioned striped aprons that, or whatever they called those things that they, smocks, that they would put around people being, having their hair cut. They had the talcum powder brushes and the barber clipping away furiously, and people in a hurry to get on, "I don't want to miss my train," and all those things. The station itself, getting inside was just, it seemed like the biggest building I had ever seen in my life at that time, probably was, and it, the big chandeliers and it was just, in its heyday was just packed with passengers and train schedules and the public address system announcing what was going on. I didn't even know what the people were doing as a boy, I had no concept of what riding a train was because we didn't actually get on the trains, so we never went out on the platforms and so all I saw was just the results of all that. What I observed was a little confusing because I didn't put it together that these people are coming from California or Chicago or wherever it may be. This really was the junction city of the Mountain West and it really was a big deal. It was so sad to see the old down town, as I'm sure you've heard from a 15 lot of people, to see what happened to that wonderful downtown on Washington Boulevard. Again, that's another subject for a book you could write about, Washington Boulevard in its heyday. Beuhler Bingham and B and B Clothiers, the Blue Door and all those fabulous clothing stores and Fred M. Nye that were able, because the economy was so powerful then with Hill Field and the Army Depot and the Naval Supply Depot and all those things, and then the railroad. Everybody was making money and it was sort of the golden age of Ogden. I guess from about the end of World War Two till roughly the time I graduated from Ben Lomond, about 1965, for about those twenty years that downtown district was just thriving. There was Watson and Tanner and 24th street was almost equal to Washington and its level of commercial activity and it was a really nice feeling to the town. There wasn't a lot of crime for the most part, you didn't hear about a lot of—we had, my mother had a friend, Officer Keith Burkdahl, who was a policeman. I remember she got—I guess one of the early beat nicks, there were a handful of beatniks I guess, in Ogden, that maybe were smoking marijuana and this guy hit her at 25th and Monroe. It was at night and he had dark glasses on, and he had sideburns and this would have been 1955 or 56 around the time Elvis was big. We just thought that was so bizarre that this fellow was dressed in this leather jacket and he had sideburns and he had dark glasses on and it's nighttime, you know, why are you wearing—it is kind of odd even now. Keith Burkdahl investigated this because my mother happen to. His wife was a good friend of my mothers and he was a patrolman and so he said, "Yea, we caught 16 this guy and arrested this guy." They finger printed him and everything. I was excited by that. It was, there were some rough characters in Ogden and who knows maybe he was using heroin or something too, or maybe he was associated with 25th street, but we never found out. Whenever I would encounter the Ogden police, I can remember in 1956, the Ogden Police had four brand new blue Fords that they got and they all, they had no markings, anywhere on the car. They were painted, I think, if I remember correctly they were a dark royal blue and they had just about the size of a coffee cup, maybe a large coffee cup, on top was a red, just a red light, and that's all, and a radio antenna, and not anywhere on the car did it say police, anywhere. It just is so funny to look back at that, we'd walk through City Hall Park and of course that was the police station back then. It was in the back of the city hall building, and you'd walk through city hall park and I'd see maybe eight or nine Fords with that bubble light on top, and maybe a couple of unmarked cars. That was the, such as it was, the Ogden police at that time. There's another story, you could do the history of the Ogden Police because they must have some tales to tell if you come across one of the retiree's from the Ogden police or somebody, the son of a police officer, I'd bet you'd get some great stories. Arnie Jacobson might be a good source because his dad. I don't know what became of him, I haven't been in touch with him in years, but his dad, I know was the chief about 1970, they had the police radio in their house because his dad was the chief, so he would hear all the radio calls in Ogden as a 17 boy. You get into some personal information sometimes, but he got run out of the house. LR: Well speaking of growing up, did you ever attend any of the theaters downtown? JV: Yes, the movies? LR: Yes. JV: Yea, we loved the Orpheum, thank you for reminding me. The Orpheum and the Egyptian, but the Orpheum even more so, it was sadly destroyed. The most exciting, fun thing we ever did I think was about 1959 and Ogden was just in its glory days at that time. We, there was a girl next door, Susanne Sylvester, who I had a crush on, and I forget who else. Anyway, we were all about 12 or 13 years old and our parents escorted us, and we got all dressed up and went to, I put on a tie and a sports coat and the girls were dressed up and we just, we just thought that was the most fun we had ever had. We went to the Orpheum and saw a movie, I can't remember what the movie was now. It was just going to the theater down, either the Egyptian or the Orpheum was just one of the special things about that time in life when you are coming of age. I think for almost anyone who was there at that time would remember it well. LR: So is that the theater that had the Popeye Club? JV: I don't know. You know, I don't know about the Popeye Club. Actually when you said that it was the first time I've heard that term. LR: Oh really, okay. JV: I must have missed out. LR: It might have been Paramount. I get my theaters mixed up, I apologize. 18 JV: The Popeye Club, maybe the Paramount was, Popeye Copper Club, Ogden, or Popeye—it says here, I am doing a little web search. I remember the Paramount was where the Paramount Bowl was, is that right? LR: I'm not sure. JV: Where the river, by the river bridge? Where the Ogden sign, is that right? LR: I'm honestly not sure, I thought it was downtown myself. I know the Orpheum and the Egyptian were. I thought the Paramount was too, so. JV: Let's see here, we had a friend who lived right by the Ogden bridge, the Ogden sign, where the Ogden sign in on the east side of Washington. There was this very interesting neighborhood there that reminds, as I got older and look back at it, I thought, "Oh my gosh, that's a lot like big city's back east." It reminded me of, in some ways. I remember the Paramount Bowling alley. When you said Paramount I thought more of a bowling alley then I did of a theater. Then there was a drive in too, and there may have been called the Paramount, there was the Riverdale Drive-in, and there was a drive-in on the south end of town was the Riverdale and going up towards North Ogden was, that Harrisville area there was a drive-in out that way, the North Point Drive- In. The drive-ins, of course, when you're a teenager in those days, it was where all the necking and all that went on. Exciting dates or all the wishful thinking for boys mostly was going on. I know there was a Paramount theater, maybe if I put movie theater, Ogden Utah, my search engine isn't generating a lot right now on that. Let's see, as it opened on the, oh, here it says, "The Paramount theater opened as the 19 Alhambra theater, March 17, 1915 with a concert by the Ogden Tabernacle Choir." There's one reference there, its Cinema treasure. Oh, here we go, 2429 Keisel Avenue. LR: Ah, that's right. JV: Oh, the Alhambra. So here is a, I vaguely remember this photo, I mean this store front. It's located on Keisel, just off of, I think just off 24th, because that looks like the Fred J. Keisel building. LR: Yes, it would have been on the opposite, it would have been closer to 25th. It's actually not there anymore, they tore it down. JV: Yea, I bet it's gone. That's my granddad's era for sure, those old street lights and globe street lights and the old early automobiles. LR: What are some of your favorite memories of downtown Ogden then? JV: Well, to be honest, it was the pretty girls you would see. You would see very, very pretty girls, you'd see dozens of girls that would just you know, traffic stop kind of thing where you'd go, "wow." It was also just the feeling that it was exciting, it was a pleasant city. There was a lunch counter near 25th and Washington, Keeley's Café. You'd go in, it was a bustling café, downtown café—going in and having lunch there. There was also a toy shop near there, and my grandfather doted on me, I was his favorite, out of the five grandchildren I was the oldest one and he liked, I don't know, he and I just bonded and he would take me in as a boy and bought me a pistol set, a cowboy pistol set from this store and I don't know the name. It was a toy store near the Broom hotel and it had just all kinds of cowboy toys all 20 over the walls, and this was a pretty big, pretty large, you know, reasonably large toy store and he bought me this holster and toy gun and toy bullets and I think it was probably one of my happiest moments in childhood. Then going on that date to the Orpheum was another one. The Utah Noodle Parlor was always fun to go to and having the big butterfly shrimp that they still make I think, I think they're still there somewhere. LR: No, they actually closed down. JV: Oh, they closed down? LR: Yea, it hasn't been that long, but Utah Noodle is no more. JV: Oh, that's too bad. That was a great tradition, but I guess Jimmies Flower shop is still there probably. That was a great flower shop. I didn't know the Glassman's, I guess you've come across A L Glassman, the name A L Glassman, but he was the operator of the Orpheum it says. Have you come across the Name Ira Huggins? He was the great attorney, probably the most famous attorney in Ogden. LR: I'm not sure. JV: Ira Huggins was—my mother would speak of him very fondly. I found a URL here, its Cinema Treasures, and it has a lot about the Paramount Theater, 2429 Keisel. This might be a page you want to look at it. It's Cinematreasures.org/theaters/26282, [some of the information that follows come directly from this website.] This is a lot of information I wasn't aware of here about the publisher . Glassman, of course, owned the Standard Examiner and apparently owned this theater also at some point and one of its premier 21 attractions was Cecil B. De Mill, The Ten Commandments. In 1925 it was leased by Public Theaters and renamed Paramount Theater so it started as the Alhambra, I guess. Glassman also owned the Orpheum but he bought the Alhambra in 1923 and then, according to this web site, during the summer months, Orpheum Vaudeville moved to the Alhambra, so they had Vaudeville, wow, now that's very interesting. In 1925 the Alhambra was leased by the Publix Theaters and renamed Paramount Theater, so that's where they got the Paramount. It underwent a complete renovation and seating was reduced to 1900 one of its premier attractions was Ten Commandments. Not the one in the 1950s but the original. By 1927 the theater was under the direction of Brooklyn-born Louis Marcus, who also owned major theaters in Salt Lake, including the Capital and other theaters in Idaho. Fanchon & Marco "Ideas" supplemented the screen attractions at the Paramount. With the demise of the American Theatre in Salt Lake in 1929, the Paramount boasted being Utah's largest theatre. Wow, I didn't know any of this. In 1929 Marcus said he was selling his interest to Publix Theaters and retiring. He was elected mayor of Salt Lake from 32 and served four years and died in 1939. 1934 it came under the ownership of Paramor Theatres who also operated the Orpheum Theatre, Lyceum Theatre and Colonial Theatre. The local Ogden Theatre was an independent. So there is quite a story there of just the theater industry in Ogden. In July of 1954, Paramor Theatres completed renovations which gave it all new seating and a 42' by 21' screen. In time for Christmas 1954, a new marquee and Paramount vertical sign in addition to the Formica snack bar 22 was added to the interior. And that's when "White Christmas" came out with Bing Crosby. So, you'll probably want to look at that website for sure. LR: Yea, I wrote it down so I'll be able to. JV: It's not that much information but it has this one wonderful old photo of the Alhambra. LR: Hmm, that's cool. JV: Yea, also, I would recommend to you to see UCR.edu. LR: Right, I wrote that down too. JV: Yea, and if you can't—that website is a little obtuse—it's something like digital newspaper survey and it's California papers, but remarkably, like I say, especially the San Francisco papers, have lots and lots of Ogden's lore and stories, especially around the time of 1890 to 1930, which would be of great value to anyone doing research at the university there. Then you can form a partnership with the UC Riverside, maybe the two schools could maybe get together on helping each other, because I know that educators always need support and they have to help each other and there is always the threats of budget cuts and things like that. I know he was, that fellow at UC Riverside was saying, "Oh we've got to prove to the regents of the university that we are doing something of value to the community so that they won't shut us down." I wrote, personally when I was a park ranger, wrote a couple of paragraphs saying how much value I've gotten out of it. You're able to, or course with your printer on your computer, you're able to print stories up if you want, or photos. They also have photos too, because you're looking at the actual paper and you can see the old historic ads. 23 LR: Right, that's fun. JV: Yea, it's really fun. You sound like you're a history lover too, so you'd have a field day with that probably. LR: I have two more questions if that's alright JV: It's been a lifelong love for me. ___________ being a park ranger, it was one of the great joys of being a park ranger was being able to give history tours, you know how it's just limited to Alcatraz history, which has quite a colorful history of course. LR: I know it's kind of getting, this has kind of gone long, but I have two more questions if that is ok. JV: Yeah, sure. LR: My first one is, you talked about your grandfather being involved in the Klan in Ogden, do you know much about that? JV: No, he was, I think he was a little ashamed of it. He, I know, it's really unfortunate I can't ask any of these folks any questions or maybe my aunt, who is still alive might know something about it. She lives in Portland, Oregon. I could ask her but she would have been embarrassed about it too. I know that he talked in racial terms about when he would watch the prize fights, Gillette Prize fights on television and he would, there was definitely a palpable racism present when he would—see a black man fighting a white man or something in a Prize fight. The only reason I know about the Klan was that my mother told me that, he didn't tell me himself he was a member of the Klan. I think he was embarrassed. He was certainly not proud of it. 24 I heard, now, I'm trying to place where I heard the recollection by some, probably from my mother, that they had put some burning crosses up on, I think the north east bench, up around, somewhere around where Ben Lomond High stands today. Up on 7th or 7th street, upper 7th street probably or somewhere where it would be seen for miles around or hoped anyway. Just to terrorize the poor black folks a little more, and probably it would have been, I'm sure they didn't like Asians either, or Jews of course. There were a handful of Jewish people too in Ogden so those groups would have been not too thrilled, I'm sure, to see that. I could try and ask Aunt Patty, she's Jennings Olsen's sister by the way, my aunt. He was the professor there at Weber for many years. She may know something about it also, and if you want, I could call you back if I'm able to find out more. The KKK was organized in all 48 states in the 1920s per public television documentary. LR: It's just a curiosity. I will leave that entirely up to you. It was just a—really, someone who was involved, so I wouldn't complain but I don't want you to feel like you have to do that or anything. JV: Well, I'm always willing to help, it's fascinating. What I have found with history and the more you dig, the more interesting it is. LR: Well this is true, I agree. JV: You reminded me of that little neighborhood around the Ogden sign there on the east side of Washington that, I wish I could relive that. Also there was something— I went to visit a friend who lived right there. There was a little alley that shot off of Washington and I think it said Paramount Bowl and it was across 25 from Bigler's Desert Inn, which was an old structure that is no longer there either. We fished in the Ogden river briefly, just once, it only happened once, I went to see him and we fished in the river. It was kind of odd, it seemed like, because here it is almost like in downtown but also almost like out in the country at the same time. It was a really nice little district there that I haven't seen any photos of, but I can picture it in my head as I close my eyes I can see it. There were store fronts right the river and I think a concrete fence or something against the river bank itself, but I'm sure it's all gone now. All that's left is the historic sign there now, but it's fun to reminisce anyway. LR: Well, my last question is this, how has Ogden changed since you were growing up here, do you think? JC: It had that timing, you know, 24th and Washington was the heart of the city and it was the heart of Ogden, it really was like the heart. It was just like a human body has a heart, it was the heart of the city and it was a thriving heartbeat. I remember a young boy yelling, "Standard," and he used to actually hold up the newspaper in his arm and wave it and people would run up and buy a newspaper. It was from the Bon Marché store which was at 22nd to about 26th or 27th along Washington, was just bustling with traffic, excitement. The ladies were dressed in their finest clothes and men were dressed in business suits, and not everyone dressed that way, but it was certainly a thriving place and then along 24th, almost the same scene. It's just sad to see that, well it's happened to many cities; it's not just Ogden, that the core of the city got gutted and changed irreparably. It's too bad 26 that it couldn't have been like what was done with Trolley Square in Salt Lake where they at least maybe changed the buildings, but don't gut every, just don't tear everything completely. The W. T. Grant store was a big deal on 24th and Washington and there was the Kiesel building and the Eccles building and the First Security Bank building and it had this little sky line and it was just, I don't know, it just seemed like a really, really positive. Overall, 25th kind of gave you the vice and a little excitement and drama, which was also kind of fun, and it just kind of was a really nice place to grow up. It sort of represented America, to me. I wrote a little article when I was a boy about it and I took a world book and I followed the outline they used to write about Chicago or New York and I just took every element, and Ogden had it all, in miniscule amounts. It had a little Asian neighborhood, it had a black neighborhood, it had everything in America and it was a, in a microcosm, it was the country. It's sad to a, I'm sorry, LR: It's okay. JV: Makes me feel bad to see that all that is lost. I know there is some of it there still. The Egyptian Theater is still there, but, LR: You're right, most of it is gone. JV: We would get, to go down to Washington Boulevard was a big deal and we would put on our best clothes and we would, yea, it was just a big deal. Even when I started working at the highway department on 17th and Wall or near, just off Wall, at the Utah Highway, Utah Road Commission, we looked forward to driving along Washington Boulevard just for the fun of seeing people on the street and seeing 27 all the excitement that it used to represent. I don't know, it's just, thank you for letting me share all that, and if I can come up with some more goodies I'll certainly call you. Also you're always welcome to call me if you need any more that I can provide, and thanks again for what you are doing. LR: Well, thank you for being so willing to help us out, I appreciate that, and for your stories, they've been wonderful and I appreciate you're willingness to work with us and to do this. We've been on the phone now for almost an hour and 20 minutes so I appreciate your time and your willingness, it means a lot. JV: Well great, Okay Lorrie, keep in touch, and any time I can be of assistance, who knows, maybe your or I or both of us may write books about it, who knows. LR: That would be fun. JV: It's worthy of some good books, I can think of three right now that would be worthy books about that era. But anyway, have a great day. 28

Introduction People say, "don't you ever want to come off?" I don't know. The thought of me getting up without taking something is totally. to me that's normal . If I haven't taken anything then I'm not normal . And for me to even, I can't contemplate not taking something, you know. I'm not a lost cause. I know what my problem is. It's other people that want me to stop. I don't want to stop. I don't want to. Does that make sense to you? (Mya) This extract is taken from an interview that formed part of my doctoral research looking at people's experiences of injecting drug use and treatment services in London, UK. Here I consider one of the ways participants described their use of drugs through a concept of becoming "normal." I pay particular attention to Mya's account and explore the very sense-making that her question (above) demands. Mya uses the concept of normality not only to reflect how drugs have become part of her everyday routines, or part of feeling normal, but actually in materially becoming herself—in embodying a "normal body." As she puts it, "if I haven't taken anything then I am not normal." In this sense, Mya's problem is not the drugs, but the people who want her to stop taking them. This understanding is important for challenging recent policy shifts towards reducing opiate replacement/substitution services in the UK (HM Government; Home Office). Methods The study took place from January to September 2014, and included participant observation at a drug treatment service, interviews with service providers, and "creative" interviews with people who inject drugs. The project was granted ethical approval by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine Ethics Committee and the NHS Regional Ethics Committee. All participants were given pseudonyms. The creative interview is a term coined by Jennifer Mason to describe an in-depth semi-structured interview which produces additional types of data beyond the spoken word. The method was employed to explore participants' feelings of embodiment as enacted in the drug-using "event." I used a body mapping (drawing) task in these interviews to aid the communication of hard-to-articulate visceral experiences and depict the many actors, human and nonhuman, involved. (For a fuller explanation of the "events" perspective and methods taken in this study, please see Dennis 2016.) Below, I draw both from Mya's narrative and her pictorial account. Becoming "Normal" with Diamorphine Mya is a 52-year-old woman who was recruited to the study through word of mouth. She attended a supervised injecting clinic where another participant informed her about the study. The purpose of this clinic is to prescribe injectable diamorphine (pharmaceutical heroin) for clients to administer under supervised conditions. This unique service is specifically targeted at people who have previously struggled with the more orthodox opiate substitution treatments, such as methadone and buprenorphine. Mya explained that she had a long history of using street heroin, but in the last ten years has been injecting legally and has also illegally sought diamorphine. Mya's drug use had become very hard to sustain financially, both in paying for private prescriptions and in the illegal drugs market, and therefore she wanted a prescription through the National Health Service. She was told that this was only possible through this clinic. However, the clinic's intention was always to reduce this consumption, which Mya did not want to accept. This is because, as she explained, without drugs she is "not normal." A rhetoric of "normality," as deployed in the drug field, has taken two dominant paths. The first is in Parker et al. 's "normalisation thesis," which documents a move during the 1990s when drug use, albeit "recreational drug use," became increasingly common. A concept of "normalisation" is used to explain this social shift in acceptability towards drug taking. The second lies in a oucauldian-influenced embodied idea of performing normality in line with dominant neoliberal discourses. For example, Nettleton et al .'s study with recovering heroin users employs a concept of "normalisation" to explore the ways in which people talk about regaining certain bodily practices to fit in with "the norm." Using the work of Michel Foucault, and his concept of governmentality more specifically, Nettleton et al . argue that "normalisation" is "a crucial aspect of neo-liberal societies, where individuals are encouraged through [decentralised] political projects to become normal: 'the judges of normality are everywhere' (Foucault, 1977)" (175). Although there are vast differences, both these accounts seem to share an understanding of normality as a socially or discursively produced set of practices. However, Mya's narrative of becoming normal seems to be doing something different. She highlights how she becomes normal with drugs in a way that suggests that without drugs she is not normal. This highlights the material work involved in achieving this "normal" state. It is clear that being normal is something we do (both theories above consider normal behaviour as performative) rather than it being pre-defined. But for Mya this is enacted in an ontological rather than learnt way as she connects with drugs. To know normality—"to me that's normal"—and to be normal—"if I haven't taken anything then I'm not normal"—are conflated. Karen Barad, in her theory of agential realism, would call this an intra-action rather than an inter-action, where what we know (epistemology) and what is (ontology) collide, or rather elide. It is in these entanglements of matter and meaning that Mya becomes normal. Mya's narrative highlights the human body as an assemblage (Deleuze and Guattari) in which drugs have become a part. In this sense, drugs can be seen as part of this embodied self rather than separate. Consequently, Mya's account is about more than how her body interacts with drugs, but rather how they become together. Drawing from Deleuze's ontology of becoming, this is the idea that life does not start with any given entities or organisms, but that these forms are brought into being through the forces of life, and as such they are in a constant state of flux, becoming something else. This can challenge ideas of "recovery" (e.g. Home Office) where people are expected to remove themselves from drugs in order to regain their "normal" self. If one's "normal" includes drugs this calls into question the very attempt to de-couple an entangled relationship that, as another participant put it, "has been a long time in the making " (my emphasis). Therefore, it is perhaps not surprising that Mya explains with a heavy heart that she is feeling substantial pressure to reduce her prescription. She feels the clinic staff fail to understand how drugs are part of her and what constitutes her "normal." Thus, as she sees it, her "problem" is not the drugs themselves, but the people who want her to stop taking them. Mya's frustrations start to make more sense—to return to the question in the epigraph—when we think about the body as something we do , involved in a constant task of keeping oneself together . Keeping Oneself Together One does not hang together as a matter of course: keeping oneself together is something the embodied person needs to do . The person who fails to do so dies. (Mol and Law 43) Mol and Law argue that bodies are not something we have but something we do , and that bodies are actively held together through a series of practices. For instance, in their example of hypoglycaemia, a pin prick of blood needs to be taken for the condition to be known, and then counteracted by eating a sugary substance (49). Thinking about Mya's account of becoming normal in these terms, drugs, instead of being seen as "evil" objects of misuse, can, for Mya at least, be part of this vital (life) project of keeping one elf together. This thoroughly blurs the distinctions between "good" medicine (life sustaining/enhancing) and "bad" drugs of abuse (life destroying). Following a Deleuzian understanding of the human body as an assemblage, making the body "actualise" as one is a process of life: "'A' or 'a' (one) is always the index of a multiplicity: an event, a singularity, a life." (Deleuze 388). As such, making bodily boundaries becomes essential. For Mya, drugs are part of this individualisation process in quite overt ways. For example, in her body map (Figure 1) she drew a picture of herself inside a cloud, with voices shouting inwards, penetrating the barrier from outside. About these she said, they are "shouting at me," "telling me what to do," and "what's best for me." But she was at pains to point out that the depicted cloud is not about representing a pleasurable or disassociated feeling, but more to do with blocking out these intruding voices telling her how to live her life so that they "can't get to me": Mya: That makes it sound like the drug makes me feel like I'm in a cloud, it doesn't, cos I just feel normal , it just helps me to, to deal with things better, it helps me to get less stressful, does that make sense? Author: Normal? Mya: Yeah Author: So if you haven't had it, you feel more on edge? Mya: I'm a complete nervous wreck. I'll be jumping everywhere, you know, if someone opens the window of a bus and I'm jumping. Figure 1: Mya's Body Map For Mya, then, her drug use is not about pleasure, or pain for that matter, but about something altogether more vital: it is about keeping together in a stressful, invasive world, to "deal with things better." It seems that Mya's drawing—through which she was asked to depict her feelings when using drugs—is about trying to hold the permeable, leaky body together. For the injecting body, which regularly incorporates and excorporates drugs, is an active/metabolic body: The active body has semi-permeable boundaries [.] inside and outside are not so stable. Metabolism, after all, is about eating, drinking and breathing; about defecating, urinating and sweating. For a metabolic body incorporation and excorporation are essential. (Mol and Law 54) A similar argument is made by Vitellone, citing Keane: Heroin is not separate from but becomes central to the body, selfhood, and processes of individualization. Thus according to Keane "a drug is something external that becomes internalized, blurring the distinction between not only inside/outside but also self/other". (166; see also Keane) In Mya's drawing and account, drugs are intimately involved in the task of individuating—in making clear boundaries between her and the world. In this sense, her drawing of a cloud can be seen almost like an extra layer of skin. This also occurs in the accounts of two other participants. One female participant commented on how, without drugs, she does not feel herself, to the point that she said, "I don't want to be in my own skin." And a male participant also used similar language to note that without heroin (even though he is prescribed methadone, an opiate substitute) he can feel "disembodied": Everything is all "oh oh" [he makes sounds and body movements to show a fear of things getting too close] like that, everything is like right, like if you're trying to walk around the streets and it's just like you can't handle busy high streets and you know busy like tubes and . In these accounts, drugs are playing a key role in this boundary work, that is, in enacting the body as One. This resonates strongly with Donna Haraway's idea of individualisation as "a strategic defense problem" (212). This is the idea that the individual body is not something we are born with, but something we strive towards. Haraway argues that "bodies have become cyborgs," where "the cyborg is text, machine, body, and metaphor" (212). Mya takes great care in making sure that I have understoo this process of boundary-making, which is essential to the cyborg, and on several occasions checks back with me to confirm that she is making sense. She gives the impression that she has been explaining these feelings for years, but still does not feel fully understood. This is perhaps why she seems so thrilled when she feels I have finally got a handle on the dynamic: Mya: But the methadone makes me feel heavy, lethargic, with the diamorphine I can get on with being normal, more better, and not so sleepy, does that make sense? [.] It just helps me cope with everything. You know what I mean, everything . Even . Author: Like taking the edge off things? Mya: That's it, the edge off things, you've got it! I've never thought of that before, that's a good way of putting it. Author: No cos I was thinking about what you were saying about how you can feel anxious and stuff, and I can imagine it just . Mya: You're right, you've done it in a nut shell there. Cos people have asked me that before and I haven't been able to answer. That is a good answer. It takes the edge of things. Yeah. At the end of the interview, and long past this initial reference, Mya shows appreciation of this phrase once more, as an expression which she feels could help in her bid to be better understood: Author: Anyway, I'll end the interview there. Mya: Was that alright? Author: Yeah, perfect. Is there anything else that you think is important that I've missed out? Mya: No not at all. I think you've just helped me there by saying it takes the edge off things, I've been trying to put that into words for a long time, I didn't know how to say it . Although these experiences are of course linked to withdrawal symptoms as a particular arrangement of bodily connections, when I ask about this, it is evident that it is also about something more. For example, in trying to get at why Mya feels she needs diamorphine rather than methadone, she talks about it being "cleaner," "purer," "less groggy." And even though I prompt her on the potential enjoyment, she links "the buzz" to being able to get on with "normal things," saying "I can act more normal with the heroin": Mya: Definitely it's less groggy. Author: And does it give you a slight buzz also? Mya: Sometimes it does yeah. Like I can get on with my housework better and things like that, day to day things, I can act more normal with the heroin. With just the methadone, things just slip . With an interesting use of the term, Mya says that with methadone (which would be the more usual opiate prescribed in heroin treatment) "things just slip." Again, there is a sense of diamorphine holding her together, in a way that without it she would "slip." This perhaps highlights the slipperiness of connections that are only ever "partial" (Haraway 181). Rather than becoming too porous, with methadone she becomes too shut off or "groggy," and again her body becomes unable to do things. This is perhaps why she is so insistent that diamorphine stays put in her life: "I'm not going to lie, even if I don't get it, I'm still going to use the diamorphine." Or, in Haraway's words, she "would rather be a cyborg than a goddess"(181) —she would rather endure the political and potentially criminal consequences of requiring this "outside" substance than pretend to live apart from/above the material world. Conclusion When we consider bodies as something we do, rather than have, we see that rather than Mya's account of normality reflecting a social change (Parker et al .) or solely discursive embodiment (Nettleton et al .), it actually refers to how she becomes her "normal self" in more material ways. Mya's account thoroughly disrupts a separation of object/subject, as well as several other binaries that underpin contemporary ideas of psychoactive drug use and the body, including drug/medicine, inner/outer, self/other, and of course, normal/pathological. Instead, and in trying to do justice to Mya's q estion which opened the essay, her body is seen connecting with drugs in a way that holds her together (as One) in becoming "normal." Consequently, her fears over having these drugs stopped are very real concerns over a disruption to her corporeality, which demand to be taken seriously. This calls for urgent questions to be asked over current UK policy trends toward eliminating diamorphine prescribing services (see O'Mara) and reducing opiate substitution more generally. References Barad, Karen. Meeting the Universe Halfway: Quantum Physics and the Entanglement of Matter and Meaning. Durham: Duke UP, 2007. Deleuze, Gilles. "Immanence: A Life." Two Regimes of Madness: Texts and Interviews 1975–1995. Ed. David Lapoujade. New York: Semiotext(e), 2006. 384­–91. Deleuze, Gilles, and Felix Guattari. A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia . London: Continuum, 2004. Dennis, Fay. "Encountering 'Triggers:' Drug-Body-World Entanglements of Injecting Drug Use." Contemporary Drug Problems (2016). . Haraway, Donna. Simians, Cyborgs, and Women: The Reinvention of Nature . London: Free Association Books, 1991. HM Government. "Drug Strategy 2010: Reducing Demand, Restricting Supply, Building Recovery: Supporting People to Live a Drug Free Life." Home Office , 2010. 1 Jan. 2011 . Home Office. "Putting Full Recovery First." Home Office , 2012. 5 Feb. 2013 . Keane, Helen. What's Wrong with Addiction ? Melbourne: Melbourne UP, 2002. Mason, Jennifer. "What Is Creative Interviewing?" 2010. 10 May 2013 . Mol, Annemarie, and John Law. "Embodied Action, Enacted Bodies. The Example of Hypoglycaemia." Body & Society 10.2 (2004): 43-62. Nettleton, Sarah, Joanne Neale, and Lucy Pickering. "'I Just Want to Be Normal': An Analysis of Discourses of Normality among Recovering Heroin Users." Health 17.2 (2013): 174–190. O'Mara, Erin. "The State We're In: Heroin Prescribing in the UK." Drink and Drug News (Dec. 2015). 20 Jan. 2016 . Parker, Howard, Judith Aldridge, and Fiona Measham. Illegal Leisure: The Normalization of Adolescent Recreational Drug Use . Hove: Routledge, 1998. Vitellone, Nicole. "The Rush: Needle Fixation or Technical Materialization?" Journal for Cultural Research 7.2 (2003): 165–177.

Lue Birch, July16, 2013 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Lue Birch. The interview was conducted on July 16, 2013, by Jordan Chavez and Lorrie Rands. Lue Birch discusses his experience with 25th street. ; 9p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Lue S. Birch Interviewed by Jordan Chavez 16 July 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Lue S. Birch Interviewed by Jordan Chavez 16 July 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Birch, Lue, an oral history by Jordan Chavez, 16 July 2013, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Lue S. Birch July 16, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Lue Birch. The interview was conducted on July 16, 2013, by Jordan Chavez and Lorrie Rands. Lue discusses his experiences with 25th street. JC: I am Jordan Chavez and I'm sitting here with Mr. Lue Birch on July 16, 2013, at 3:00 p.m. here in his home. We are going to be talking about your life as a police officer here in Ogden. JC: Did you grow up in Ogden? LB: No, I was born in Idaho. JC: When did you move? LB: My family moved to Ogden when I was eight years old. JC: You joined the police force in 1949. What was Ogden City like then and did your beat include 25th Street? LB: Ogden had a lot of crime, mostly burglaries, but 25th Street was really rough. It was that way mainly due to the prostitution there. We walked the police beat back then, checking buildings throughout the city. We did so much walking we practically wore the sidewalks out! My partner and I cleared up 142 burglaries in three months and put 32 burglars down at the point of the mountain—I'm not bragging, that's the truth! For five years I walked the beat and then they decided to put officers in cars because they could get around much faster and curb the crime a lot better in cars than they could walking. One of the drawbacks of walking the beat was some criminals would watch the policeman on his beat and find out what his habits were 1 and then make their move. By the time the officer got back to square one, they would have the burglary done and would be gone. They couldn't do that as easily with officers patrolling in cars. Later I suggested that having two officers per car was a waste of manpower. I explained that it would cost the department two more cars, but that we would have better coverage of the city with four officers in four cars covering each corner of the city. If an officer needed backup they could get it in 2 ½ minutes by one of the other officers. JC: That is pretty good time. That's incredible actually. Seems like a very impressive rate that you and your partner had with clearing the street in such a short amount of time. LB: Yeah, some of the crooks were even coming down here from Montana. They would have somebody case the area, come in and hit the jobs, and then head back to Montana, but we were able to run them right out of Ogden. LR: What are some of your memories of being a patrolman and 25th Street? LB: I can tell you a lot of crazy stories and things that happened while I patrolled 25th Street. I was involved in the cleaning up of the "houses of ill fame." Sometimes we would sit in the main lobbies of some of the business to cut down on their business. A lot of the people that frequented these businesses would hear that we were sitting in the lobbies and would sneak in and out the back, to save their reputation. One night we arrested 35 people in a particular cathouse. The Madame would always try to give the on-duty officers coffee, cake, or liquor. I would always refuse. I told her "I don't drink coffee, I don't drink liquor, and I'm 2 skeptical on who made the cake!" I would never accept anything from them, knowing that they were wanting me to compromise my duty as an officer, in exchange for their gratuities. We arrested a Madame one time and were booking her into jail. She had rings on all of her fingers and the jewelry that she was wearing was documented at $40,000 dollars alone. She was worried that she would not get all of her jewelry back when she was released. I assured her that she would, but to be sure we would put it all into an envelope, seal it, and she could write her name along the flap, where the flap meets the envelope. That way she would know if the signature had been disturbed, the jewelry had been tampered with. When she was released her signature on the envelope was as she had written it and all of her jewelry was intact. After we cleaned up that particular group they headed for either Reno or Las Vegas because prostitution was legal there. There was one hustler that we nicknamed "Walk Your Dog" because he would be seen sometimes walking 15 dogs at once! He would walk the dogs of the prostitutes while they were "working." One time I was walking the beat and I could smell something. There was a man smoking and I yelled, "Put that cigarette out!" I had smelled gas fumes and noticed that there was a gas leak on 25th Street and Lincoln. It turned out to be a big gas main that was leaking. Had I not been walking the beat, smelled the fumes, and noticed the guy smoking, there may have been a major explosion. I also remember getting on some of the elevators in a few places around town, like the Wilson Rooms, the Calico Cat, or the Rose Rooms and they would 3 smell of marijuana. As an interesting sideline, Rose Davies, owner of the Rose Rooms, owned a cheetah as a pet. We knew this guy that had a wooden leg. You could find him everywhere around town and he was always drunk. Usually if someone had passed out or was sleeping you could tap on their leg and it would wake them up. One night I was going around tapping some of the drunk patrons on the leg to wake them up and when I got to this particular man some of the other officers started to laugh because they knew I would never be able to wake up this guy, by tapping him on the leg, because he was the guy with the wooden leg! Then there was a judge by the name of Judge J. Quail Nebeker that we would come up against every now and then. He would be for the bad guys instead of on the side of the law. We would arrest the winos and he would say "Five or ten?" which would mean five days in jail or $10 and then he would let the offender back out on the street. We started to take the crooks to South Ogden because the judge there would hand down a real sentence. You know, we would hardly ever see the crook again after he had served the real sentence given out by the South Ogden judge instead of the "five or ten" sentence. Well, 25th Street was pretty rough. Sometimes you were forced to use your brawn instead of your brain, but I loved my job working with the kids and the safety program even better than being an officer on the beat. I worked with the school kids in the safety program for 15 years. I would visit the elementary schools and if it was recess or lunchtime, I couldn't get down the hallway. The kids would mob me. I have a picture in my scrapbook that 4 shows a little kid grabbing me by the leg. Often a teacher or the principal would have to come out and rescue me. The kids always wanted to talk to Officer Birch, but then being in the safety program you have to practice what you preach because the kids are always watching you. One day I was crossing the street kitty corner and I heard this little voice behind me say, "Officer Birch, you're jay-walking." I said, "I'm sorry, I forgot. I'm glad you reminded me." I went back and crossed the street the right way. Then the little girl said, "I didn't want to see you get hurt." Boy, those kids are so great. If you want the truth, ask a child. JC: Yeah, kids are very honest. LB: Yes, they are. LR: How did you get involved with the safety program? LB: Chief Shaw was having problems with kids getting hurt in the schools. He wanted to get the kids to and from school safely. He asked me if I thought I could take over the program and make it work. So, I wrote the guidelines for the state of Utah and it spread all over the United States. It was basically a program used by police to build safety awareness among children. The safety program would later change and go on to be known as McGruff the Crime Dog. Anyway, when I was in charge of the safety program I would go to the schools and teach children how to be safe. Sometimes it would be with a film to show the kids how to cross the street, bicycle safety, hand signals—anything to get the kids to think about safety. I just taught plain stuff and I would give it to the kids straight. 5 We had bicycle programs that taught safety and agility on a bicycle. We had one where we would blindfold the rider of the bicycle. We would then put a cardboard box on the grass. The rest of the children would start clapping as the rider came toward the box. If he got off course the kids would stop clapping. Once he was back on course they would start clapping again and lead him right to the box. This one little boy told me "Officer Birch, you know that bicycle safety program we had at the park where we had to get to the box?" I said, "Yes." He said, "It saved my life. I was riding my bike down Jefferson and 24th Street and a car took the back fender off my bicycle. When it honked I knew exactly where it was so I pulled off to the side and it just took the back fender off my bike, rather than hitting me." I said, "Boy, that's really great!" We held bicycle rodeos and also had bike inspections where we would teach kids how to tighten loose parts on their bicycles. We would schedule dates at each park and then the kids in that area would attend them. The kids loved it and so did we. Then in the schools we got the little safety badges for the Triple A Safety Kids. I would go to the schools and swear in the safety patrol students that would be responsible for helping other children cross the street. I would swear them in just like a police officer and would teach them how to keep the children on the curb until the traffic was clear and then help them across the street. The kids really loved that. Then through the Chevrolet Company we started a green flag program. As long as the school didn't have any accidents during the month they could fly the 6 green flag in front of their school. It was an incentive for them to constantly think about safety. Children would come up to me and say, "We're flying the green flag!" That program was really great. At the end of the year Lagoon would give us free tickets for each of the safety patrols. We had about 160 of them. We would take them all to Lagoon. It was the highlight of the year. Area businesses would donate hotdogs, hamburger for sloppy joes, money—anything they could to help with the Lagoon safety patrol picnic each year. One year, I was able to get five buses and took the safety patrol to Hardware Ranch. I tried to give them an outing to compensate for the work they put in on the corners helping other children cross the street on their way to and from school. That's what I miss the most—the kids, but I guess I had 15 whole years of that. JC: Tell me about Marshall White. LB: Marshal White? He was Detective Sergeant Marshall White, the best shot on the Pistol Team. He and I were hunting and fishing buddies. He was a great person and a good friend of mine. We called him "Doc." He was trained as a Podiatrist, a foot doctor, but since he was black only the poor and people who couldn't pay would go to him, so he joined the police force. JC: Were you there when he died? LB: I wasn't with him when he was shot, but I was with him the night he passed away. JC: What happened? 7 LB: He had gone out on a call to arrest a 16 year-old boy that had escaped from the State Industrial School and the kid shot him. I wasn't on the call with him but a few days later in the hospital I told him, "Doc, you're going to get better, you're going to get out of here and we're going to go fishing and hunting again." He said, "Lue, I don't think so, I'm hit too hard." An hour and a half later he passed away. He was a wonderful person. I sure liked him. He was only 54 years old. LR: I have a question for you. You mentioned last time I was here, that 25th Street didn't have tunnels, but you had a story. LB: I only knew of one tunnel on 25th Street. You had to go through a tavern on 25th and Lincoln, right under where Willie Moore has his barbershop, and then you would go down to this tunnel that had a lock on the outside. When you passed through the door there was another lock on the inside. The tunnel ran under two buildings and they would hold the Chinese lottery in there. LR: I have one last question and it kind of starts back at the beginning. What prompted you to become a police officer? LB: I worked at the Defense Depot Ogden (DDO) before World War II, making $.86 cents an hour. After serving in the war, I came back to DDO where they held a job for me. I was now a hearse driver helping with the repatriation of the World War II dead. We brought back 2,400 dead, to the area, to their place of origin following the war. After that, I went to work for the Ogden City police force. I was making $222 dollars a month when I first joined the force. I became a police officer because I wanted to be on the outside looking in— not on the inside of a jail cell looking out. I wanted to be on the right side of the 8 law. I felt influential in the lives of kids. I would teach them about safety and they would listen. I'm sure that saved a few lives. I still enjoy hearing from students that remember me as Officer Friendly or Officer Birch. A couple of years ago when I was attending my great-grandson's high school football game a current police officer recognized me and came up to me and said he became an officer because of my influence. That really makes me feel good. LR: Do you have any other comments to add about 25th Street or anything else we've talked about? LB: Well, I think I've about run out of gas and that's a lot of gas too! 9

This guide accompanies the following article: Christine V. Wood, 'The Sociologies of Knowledge, Science, and Intellectuals: Distinctive Traditions and Overlapping Perspectives', Sociology Compass 4/10 (2010): 909–923, 10.1111/j.1751‐9020.2010.00328.x.It offers a list of texts that one could use in developing a course in the sociology of scientific knowledge, in the sociology of knowledge in general, or in a more specialized course on the field of scholarly production, experts and intellectuals, and the social organization of the academic profession and research sciences.Author's introductionFew review and teaching materials exist that collect the diverse research exploring the social and institutional context in which scholarly and scientific ideas are generated, legitimated, and diffused. By zeroing in on the social 'field' or 'arena' of scholarly production, which may include the sciences, humanities, and social sciences, sociologists are better able to delineate the distinct analytic traditions that have emerged in studying various orderings of certified knowledge – whether philosophical, humanistic, social scientific, or scientific – and their producers. Despite obvious overlaps, the sociologies of knowledge, science, and intellectuals owe their origins as sociological sub‐fields to distinctive theoretical and even methodological traditions. Considering intellectuals and experts as social groups working in specific social contexts, institutions, and making different kinds of claims to knowledge is different from studying the gestation of ideas and their content, whether these ideas are values, beliefs, assumptions, or scientific and academic theories. Within the sociology of knowledge, studies of the production of academic knowledge is a separate body of literature from studies of social cognition, collective memory, or the internalization of norms and values, and so some distinctions are necessary. In some sense, the sociology of knowledge as a grand project that could subsume the study of scientific knowledge and the study of intellectuals as a social class or group and of the academic professions. But many scholars draw boundaries between the sociologies of knowledge and science, owing to the empirical distinctions between an area of inquiry that subsumes the study of broad orderings of knowledge and a field that focuses on the distinct status and situation of natural and hard science in modern life – its content, institutional contexts, organization, normative structures, political conflicts, and applications. Depending on their research interests, scholars have drawn boundaries within the sub‐fields of science studies, for instance by delineating between the 'political' sociology of science and the 'historical' sociology of science, or by focusing on the interactions between political and social movements and science and academia. Depending on the interests of the professor and the degree of specialization of a course, this guide offers a list of texts that one could use in developing a course in the sociology of scientific knowledge, in the sociology of knowledge in general, or in a more specialized course on the field of scholarly production, experts and intellectuals, and the social organization of the academic profession and research sciences.Author recommendsFollowing a chronology of sociological work on knowledge, science, and intellectuals, from the classical, 19th‐Century theory of Karl Marx and Max Weber through the early and mid‐20th‐Century is to trace a neat trajectory of sociological theory in its various incarnations – foundational, functionalist, structural, institutional, political, historical, and cultural. Many classical essays in the sociology of knowledge and science are dispersed among larger texts devoted to the essays of key sociological thinkers. Within the sociology of knowledge or science, numerous volumes exist that detail foundational and specialized approaches in the field.For a primer in the modern sociologist's treatment of science as a social institution, an excellent collection is Robert Merton's The Sociology of Science: Theoretical and Empirical Investigations, a compendium of essays from the thinker on science in modern societies, with attention paid to scientific institutions as they developed from the 17th‐Century through the 20th‐Centuries. What is most remarkable about Merton's collection of essays is that it sets the framework for many core themes that would later be elaborated by sociologists on questions of science, including the relationship of science to other institutions and conflicts among scientists over the prioritization of some programs of research and discovery over others. In a thesis that explored the 'interdependence' of science and other institutional spheres in seventeenth century England, where modern science was just beginning, Merton explored the 'interdependence' of science and other institutional spheres, occupational, religious, economic, and militaristic. Aside from this essentially 'macro' view of science, Merton also wrote on the 'Normative Structures of Science', where he discussed a conflict between the governing ethos of science and the attitudes of others across institutional and social spheres. He wrote that a tenet in science is that all scientists should in their research ignore all considerations other than the advance of knowledge, the justification being that consideration of the practical or social uses of the knowledge increases the possibility for bias and error. Merton claimed that this attitude had furnished a basis of revolt against science – once the applications of the science are discovered, those authorities or groups who disapprove of that application will turn their antipathy toward the science itself. Finally, in an essay on 'Priorities in Scientific Discovery', Merton laid the groundwork for the 'functionalist' perspective of science. He argued that science operates with governing norms of priority and originality, which places pressure on scientists to assert their claims as original. When science as an institution is working efficiently, those who have best fulfilled their roles as scientists will have made genuinely original contributions to the common stock of knowledge, and are afforded rightful esteem and recognition. The focus on the judgment of originality and credibility in science has sparked a wave of new scholarship, which I outline in the course syllabus and essay.Given the status of 'science and technology studies' as an ever expanding interdisciplinary field, several recent volumes collect contemporary essays in the social studies of science. A notable volume that contains diverse theoretical and methodological writings in the social studies of science is the Handbook of Science and Technology Studies, edited by Edward J. Hackett, Olga Amsterdamska, Michael Lynch, and Judy Wajcman (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2007). Emphases on the political dimensions of scientific knowledge production are currently receiving a great deal of attention, with diverse research exploring the politics of nuclear proliferation, environmental justice movements, and the politics of gender and sexual difference in scientific and medical research. The New Political Sociology of Science: Institutions, Networks, and Power, edited by Scott Frickel and Kelly Moore, provides a good introduction (Madison, WI: University of Wisconsin Press, 2006). Other edited volumes are useful as introductory texts to core essays and readings in the sociology of knowledge. A nice volume that contains overlapping research in the sociologies of knowledge and science is Society & Knowledge: Contemporary Perspectives in the Sociology of Knowledge & Science, edited by Volker Meja and Nico Stehr (Transaction Publishers, 2005).Sample syllabusSince the sociologies of knowledge and science are such broad areas of research, the sample syllabus takes into account analysis of knowledge production in the sciences, social sciences, and humanities as well as the study of intellectuals as a group. For those that find the focus broad, recommended readings allow those with more interest in science and technology studies or in the study of expert communities to zero‐in on specific bodies of literature. This course could be framed broadly as a course on the social contexts of knowledge production – science, knowledge, and modern research and academic vocations. A basic goal of the class is to encourage students to think more reflexively about science and about their own work as social scientists, while also to promote ongoing research on the ever changing social contexts of the academic professions and knowledge production in the sciences, social sciences, and humanities.This 10 week outline introduces theoretical texts and some exemplary case studies.Week 1: Introduction:This session is an introduction to the sociological study of knowledge production, science, and intellectuals as a group. The class should discuss short pieces as foundational texts, which may include Gramsci's essay writing on intellectuals in Selections from the Prison Notebooks (New York: International Publishers, 1971); excerpts from Karl Mannheim's Ideology and Utopia: An Introduction to the Sociology of Knowledge (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1985), particularly those portions that deal with the social function of the intellectual and the 'classless intellectual'; Max Weber's essay 'Science as a Vocation' (Pp. 129–156 in From Max Weber: Essays in Sociology, edited by H. Gerth and C. W. Mills, New York: Oxford University Press, 1958); and some more contemporary piece, perhaps Merton's essay 'Paradigm for the Sociology of Knowledge', a clarifying, comprehensive essay on the myriad topics that could be subsumed under the sociology of knowledge (in The Sociology of Science: Theoretical and Empirical Investigations, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1973). Given the breadth of Merton's essay, which does not deal exclusively with scholarly and scientific knowledge, class discussion should devote attention to the distinctions among approaches that deal with intellectuals as a group, the social contexts of science, and the content of ideas.Week 2: Classical foundations:The second week should involve a more detailed emphasis on theoretical foundations in the sociology of knowledge and science. Though Weber's essay on 'Science as a Vocation' has been introduced in the first week, the discussion should center more intensely on how the classical scholars handled questions about knowledge and intellectuals. Using Merton's essay to frame the classical theorists' take on science and knowledge, a comparison of the perspectives of Marx and Weber on knowledge and intellectuals should make for a lively discussion. Excerpts from Marx's The German Ideology provide a good introduction to Marx's views on the way the content of ideas are linked to material life. In Marx's critique of the writings in political economy of his day, he argues that the content, form, and method of the writing on utilitarianism from the prominent bourgeois thinkers of the day were linked to concrete social and economic developments in Europe. To contrast Marx's take that the content of political and economic writing reflected social and economic developments, Weber provides a more nuanced analysis of how the class interests of intellectuals influences the content of their ideas in his writing on how certain types of intellectuals influenced the ideological and ethical doctrines of major world religions, by advocating ideas that conformed to but were not directly influenced by their occupational class interests. Important to this discussion is to compare and contrast Marx and Weber and the extent to which each sees social class as shaping ideas.Weeks 3–4: Social structure, function, and institutions:The next several sessions deal with the various approaches to science and technology, knowledge, and intellectuals to emerge in the middle of the 20th‐Century. The first set of discussions should be on social structure and function – essentially, in discussion how sociologists' have understood the influence of social structure on knowledge production and how scholars have theorized on the function or 'role' of scientists and intellectuals in the promotion of the social order. Again, Robert Merton provides a touchstone example of a 'functionalist' perspective on science, and a good example is his essay on 'Priorities of Scientific Discovery' (The Sociology of Science: Theoretical and Empirical Investigations, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1973). An exemplary text and enjoyable read is Florian Znaniecki's Social Role of the Man of Knowledge (New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Books, [1940] 1986). C. Wright Mills's Sociology and Pragmatism: The Higher Learning in America is an exemplary and oft‐overlooked text on the growth of pragmatism and modern American sociology, a model of research design and a prescient analysis of how occupational and economic conditions, the changing demographic of the American university, and the content and function of elective curricula influenced the development of new areas of research in philosophy and the growth of modern sociology (New York: Oxford University Press, 1969). This text could also be used to discuss the importance of institutional conditions in shaping academic disciplines and knowledge production. Key texts on the importance of institutions as portals and venues of intellectual activity and the social importance of scientists and intellectuals as institutional and bureaucratic actors include Lewis Coser's Men of Ideas: A Sociologist's View (New York: Free Press, 1965) and Edward Shils's (1972) collection of essays, The Intellectuals and the Powers, and Other Essays (Chicago: University of Chicago Press).Weeks 5–6: Politics and reflexivity:Alvin W. Gouldner's The Coming Crisis of Western Sociology is a good introduction to a reflexive approach to knowledge production in the social sciences (New York: Avon, 1970). Gouldner analyzed the 'presuppositions' of two generations of social theorists, comparing the early 20th‐Century sociological preoccupations with social order with the more conflict‐laden approaches of the New Left generation. The book makes a rather convincing case about how scholars' relations to resources and politics form the subtext of social theory. Other examples of the 'politics' of knowledge production and the social situation of the observer or abound, particularly in feminist theory, beginning with Dorothy Smith's now‐dated essay 'Women's Perspective as a Radical Critique of Sociology' (Pp. 21–34 in The Feminist Standpoint Theory Reader: Intellectual and Political Controversies, edited by S. Harding, New York: Routledge, 2004). A good way to trace the intellectual trajectory of feminist critiques of science and knowledge is by assigning selections from The Feminist Standpoint Theory Reader. These texts will provide something of an antidote or contrast to the social structural or 'functional' perspectives. Also fitting for these discussion are a couple of texts that revived the analyses of the influence of intellectuals' social class position on the content of ideas. Erik Olin Wright (1978) focused on intellectuals in late capitalism and György Konrad and Ivan Szelenyi (1979) analyzed the social position of intellectuals under Eastern European state socialism, in both cases melding political sociology with the sociology of knowledge. Discussions of the texts featured in these 2 weeks should provoke students to discuss whether the main imperative of the sociology of knowledge – the analysis of the social and material, or at least contextual, backdrop to knowledge claims – is in itself reflexive.Weeks 7–8: Fields, new institutional analysis, social movements, and networks:Among the most popular recent approaches in the sociology of knowledge are field analysis, network analysis, and new institutional approaches. Each of these could be said to be in some sense 'macro' as the focus is on how broader contexts and relationships influence the content and flow of ideas. Bourdieu's Homo Academicus is a study of the relationships of status among French university professors and includes rigorous analyses of scholars' career and family backgrounds as well as the relationships of academic disciplines to authorities in the university and the state (Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1988). Examples of how institutional conditions shape the development, structure, and composition of academic disciplines and departments have emerged in recent years, the most notable examples being Charles Camic's essay (published in 1995 in Social Research) on how local institutional conditions and interdisciplinary interaction influenced the development of distinct analytic traditions in three early sociology departments and Mario Small's essay (published in 1999 in Theory and Society) on how local institutional factors influenced differences in the content and structure of new African‐American studies programs. Excellent examples of the influence that social movements and collective action have on the formation of new academic disciplines include Fabio Rojas's From Black Power to Black Studies: How a Radical Social Movement Became an Academic Discipline (Baltimore, MD: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2007) and Scott Frickel's Chemical Consequences: Environmental Mutagens, Scientist Activism, and the Rise of Genetic Toxicology (New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers University Press, 2004). Finally, Randall Collins's mammoth The Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change outlines a vast network analysis of philosophical production across historical periods (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2000). The book is big, and an idea is to have students read the theoretical sections that explain the logic of a network analysis of philosophical production, and then to have students select individual chapters to read and present to the class.Week 9: Culture and micro‐sociological analysis:With the rise in importance of the sociology of culture in recent years, interested scholars have applied some of the research techniques developed in culture studies to analyze knowledge production. An exemplary study in this area is Karin Knorr‐Cetina's Epistemic Culture: How the Sciences Make Knowledge, which is a micro‐sociological account of how scientists in high‐energy particle physics and molecular biology labs conduct their research (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1999). If students are interested in the contexts of scientific knowledge production and laboratory life, students might compare Knorr‐Cetina's analysis with earlier studies of the interactions of actors and artifacts in science labs, beginning with the work of Bruno Latour, perhaps starting with Science in Action: How to Follow Scientists and Engineers through Society (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1987).Week 10: Using approaches in the sociology of science to analyze other kinds of knowledge production:At the 'cutting edge' of research in the sociology of knowledge are attempts by scholars to adapt, or utilize, the theories and methods developed in science studies to analyze knowledge production in the social sciences and humanities. A good essay that draws on the work of Knorr‐Cetina is Gregoire Mallard's 'Interpreters of the Literary Canon and their Technical Instruments: The Case of Balzac Criticism', published in the American Sociological Review in 2005. A more recent example examines how social science and humanities professors evaluate knowledge, borrowing from research in the social studies of science on consensus, evaluation, and credibility: Michele Lamont's How Professors Think: Inside the Curious World of Academic Judgment (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2009). Students should assess how convincingly a research area that originated in social studies of science, like studies of how knowledge is prioritized and judged as 'original' or the use of technical instruments in the humanities, applies to knowledge contexts outside of the hard sciences.Focus questions

 In what ways can the methods and theories of the sociology of science be adapted to analyze knowledge production in other areas, including the humanities and the social sciences? What sorts of processes and knowledge claims are specific to science?
 What makes an analysis reflexive? Is analyzing the material or institutional conditions that shape ideas or scientific production inherently critical or reflexive?
 Among the more recently popularized theoretical and methodological approaches to intellectual life, like Bourdieu's 'field' analysis of the French university and Collins's network analysis of philosophy, which is likely to be most transposable across diverse scientific and academic settings?

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with Dr. Wesley H. Anderson. Dr. Anderson recalls his education as a physician and beginning a private practice during the Depression. He practiced for the Union Pacific and Southern Pacific Railroads, the Magna smelters, and also covered local doctors' practices. He discusses taking produce for pay, paying house calls, and compares early medical practice to modern practice, including the threat of malpractice lawsuits. ; 13p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Wesley H. Anderson Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Wesley H. Anderson Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Anderson, Wesley H., an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Dr. Wesley H. Anderson. Dr. Anderson recalls his education as a physician and beginning a private practice during the Depression. He practiced for the Union Pacific and Southern Pacific Railroads, the Magna smelters, and also covered local doctors' practices. He discusses taking produce for pay, paying house calls, and compares early medical practice to modern practice, including the threat of malpractice lawsuits. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Where did you live during the Depression, from 1929-39? WA: I was at the University of Utah from 1929, graduated from there in 1933, and then went back to the University of Pennsylvania, and graduated there in 1935. Then I came to Ogden and interned at the Dee Hospital in 1935-36 and started to practice. I practiced with the railroad, was the physician for both the Union Pacific and the Southern Pacific Railroad, and was head physician for Weber College. I also carried on a private practice covering most everybody's practice in town when they were on vacation. This was in the Depression years, so a lot of the doctors went on vacation. And then, in 1937, after practicing for one year, I left for Chicago. I did a residency at the University of Chicago in pediatrics. And I spent 1937 until late 1939 in residency at the University of Chicago, and then returned to Ogden in late 1939. MT: What were the problems confronted by a young doctor starting out at that time as opposed to a young doctor starting out now? WA: Well, the problem, I suppose then, as now, we had actually too much to do, especially in my case. We started out, got married shortly after I finished my 2 internship and started out on our honeymoon, and got as far as a ranch up in Kamas Valley. We were going up through the northwest, and I was called there by a doctor in Magna who was head of the smelter operations for Kennecott - for the Magna smelters, so we didn't go on a honeymoon. After practicing there for six weeks, I came to Ogden and went into practice with Dr. Morrell and worked there for years. So I really didn't have any problems starting off. I was so busy. It almost killed me off that first year. I worked day and night. I worked for everyone that went on vacation. I was quite well known here because, of our group of interns, I was the only one who stayed in Ogden, and I had a lot of friends. Dr. Bartlett and some of the leading doctors took vacations. I delivered more babies in Ogden that year than any other doctor, and got paid practically nothing because I left on a residency as it was Depression times. In those days a delivery fee was $35, and I didn't average $5 or $10. I'd deliver both in the home and in the hospital. Very often we'd deliver four babies per night. I remember we joined a couple of clubs here. We tried to go to a movie, and having that railroad work - Dr. Morrell's mother was dying in Logan and he was out of town most of the time - I didn't get to see one movie through that year. We didn't get to one party where I could stay through completely. So I was very happy to get out of town after one year. However, I believe after we left - I left Mrs. Anderson to clean up our debts - I think we landed in Chicago with about $9,000, which was pretty good in Depression times, for one year and just starting out. 3 MT: You would have done exceptionally well then, if your collections would have been good. WA: Well, it was pretty good then. But I didn't collect for a third of the work I did. MT: Was there anything particular about the economy, or anything of this nature, that induced you to go back for further training? WA: Well, it was mainly the massive amount of work, of day and night work that I wanted to get away from. I thought that it would be easier to specialize. I learned in my residency that I loved working with the children. I didn't mind working with them all day long. Surgery sort of upset me. Obstetrics I despised after delivering that many babies. So I just loved to work with children. So when I got the chance that came mainly through Dr. Morrell, who was a classmate of the head of the American Academy of Pediatrics, he lined me up with a residency. I learned an awful lot from both he and Dr. Bartlett. I worked with them both. I worked in both their offices. As a matter of fact, I worked in Dr. Morrell's office. That was my main office. I worked in Dr. Bartlett's office, Dr. Bill Brown's office, Dr. Sideman's office, and quite a lot of work for Dr. Jensen, so I covered about five of the six busiest doctors in Ogden. As I mentioned, the obstetrics charge for a patient at the hospital was about $15 at that time, and now it's between $200 -300. The doctor's fee was $35, and now it's between $200 and $300. House calls would be $3-5, office calls were $3. There was an awful lot of work, always very enjoyable, of course. Then, when we came back to Ogden, and I went back with Dr. Bartlett after that, and was expecting to go in the army. They kept turning me down about 4 every year because I had a little [heart] murmur. So I practiced with him for five years rather than set up an office, thinking that I would be going in the army. They'd call me up every six months, and then tell me to come back in another six months. So when things started to get a little better, after they invaded Europe, I had always wanted to go into pediatrics, and so I set up my office down in the First Security Bank Building. MT: Were there any lessons taught by the Depression years that you feel you learned, or that were learned by others around you? WA: Well, we've always lived quite conservatively. I'm sure all the doctors that went through that Depression are very conservative, no big boats, etc. We did build a little swimming pool, the first one in Ogden, a private pool. It was supposed to cost us $1,500 and it ended up costing us $3,500. But other than that, we drive our cars longer, and try to buy better cars than most of these young fellows. I don't know, I imagine most of the doctors know how to manage their affairs, and I don't think any of them had any financial problems that I remember around that time. MT: Are you aware of anything through that time involved with the script, and the farmers using their produce to pay their bills? WA: No, I think that came before my time. I don't remember anything about that. Oh, we had a lot of vegetables and things brought to us, but of course we still get them from the people out on the farms. From this time of the year on, we get all the vegetables and fruits that we can eat from patients. We used to have our own garden out here that we raised, but it got a little too much for us, and so we put it 5 all into grass and trees. I never remember [being] financially pinched during that time. Of course, when I was in school, I always had a job during that time, never ever got paid more than 50 cents an hour. I was on a scholarship, a football scholarship, and got paid 50 cents an hour as the janitor at the medical school. I got back in Pennsylvania in the microbiology lab and got paid 50 cents an hour. At that time, back in Philadelphia, we were very fortunate, of course, because we got board and room for $25 a month, and excellent board and room. During those years we always had plenty to eat and plenty to wear. I never had a car, like some of those fellows did. Some of the boys' fathers would buy them a new car every year. MT: Were you affected at all by the crash of the stock market in 1929? WA: No, we didn't. The banks closed, but that was the only thing. I didn't have much money in the bank. My folks had a little money in bank stock, and I think that they had to pay double for that bank stock. It practically broke my folks. Fortunately my mother was a school teacher, too, which helped. I probably wouldn't have gotten through medical school because it practically broke them. That was the Grantsville Deseret Bank. At that time, when the banks closed, of course we didn't have any money. I moved in with a doctor's family in Salt Lake. He was an internist down there at the Salt Lake Clinic, also president of the board of regents. I just moved in with their family, and they bought me clothes and furnished me free board and room. And then I worked at the medical school as a janitor, so I had practically no expenses, so I made my way all right. When I went 6 back East, I had to borrow money at 5 percent. I think I got some money from the university and an unknown donor. I think it came from the people I lived with, but they didn't want me to know. But I paid it back to the president of the university, so I didn't know who it was, but I'm almost sure. MT: Do you think of anything else that happened to you in your travels at that time, or any other experiences that might be of interest? WA: Well, I used to on Saturday afternoon - Dr. Bartlett had a lot of old patients, old people, and a lot of them were in for heart failure. And they'd fill up with fluid in their abdomen and chest and have to be tapped, drained once a week. Well, it would be unheard of to do in the home in this day and age, but then they had no antibiotics, practically. I would start out about 2 p.m., and I'd make about seven taps. I'd put needles in their abdomen and chest and drain off a gallon of fluid, and give them a shot of salagin, which would stimulate their kidneys, and then they could breathe for a week. Nowadays, if you asked one of these young doctors to do it in the home, they would think that was the craziest thing they could do. think they would sure get infection, but they didn't get any infection. But that's where I spent from 2 every Saturday afternoon. These people would just, for a year or more than a year. In most cases, they had practically no emergency room. These people couldn't get to an emergency room. A lot of them didn't have transportation. MT: What problems do you see now that are different from the problems you had then? Is it more common now for people to sue for malpractice? 7 WA: Well, I'm sure it is, and I don't know exactly why this has been brought on. We, as physicians, have always said that there are too many hungry lawyers around, you know. And I don't quite ever remember [hearing] of very few malpractice suits in those days. I remember once I heard of a doctor that I was working with, an attorney called him up and said a client wanted to sue him for some fracture or something. And the doctor said, "Well, if you do, I'll fight you for as long as I live." They were supposed to be good friends. In all my younger days, that's the only thing I heard on malpractice. And he didn't ever sue this guy. He was a leading attorney here in Ogden. And whether it was justified or not, I'm sure it wasn't, because the woman kept coming into the office, who had the injured arm. Our malpractice insurance in those days was about $15 and then it went up to $40 for quite a number of years, and mine jumped to $450 last year. This year it will be $520 some odd dollars, and I've never had anyone ever threaten, but you still have the insurance. MT: Do you feel in the medical profession that there are more precautions taken that maybe wouldn't need to be taken except for this reason? WA: Oh, I'm sure there are 100 percent more than are necessary, probably, just because of malpractice. And that's one thing that I think has run the medical costs up so high, the medical insurance, doctors' insurance, they just pass it on. That's the only thing they can do and survive. So I think it's just an awful situation. Malpractice has gone for some of these plastic surgeons - Dr. Jarrett told me his malpractice insurance rate is $1,000 this year. And malpractice in Seattle for a neurosurgeon is $7,000 to $10,000 a year. And across the border, 8 over in Victoria, it is $70 a year. So you can tell - and all these fellows are trained in the same universities - so you can tell that it - they're all trained in the same way and treat their patients in the same way, and on one side of the border they pay $70 and on the other side, they pay $7,000 to $10,000. So it's a treacherous thing. I think the government ought to do something about it. I don't know why this has been brought on like that. Oh, I'm sure that with all this high cost of medicine. a lot of people are hurt because the expenses are so great. It makes them kind of want to sue, I suppose, and then it just rises all the time. Personally, I think that the government will do something; they'll have to.

Transcript of an oral history interview with Reinhard M. Lotz, conducted by Sarah Yahm at Norwich University in Northfield, Vermont, on 10 April 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Reinhard Lotz graduated from Norwich University in 1960; the bulk of the interview focuses on his subsequent military career in the U.S. Army. ; 1 Reinhard M. Lotz, NU 1960, Oral History Interview April 10, 2015 Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Sarah Yahm SARAH YAHM: Could you introduce yourself on tape? RON LOTZ: Yeah, my name's Reynard M. Lotz, they call me Ron. And I'm living in St. Louis, Missouri at the time. I had 30 years in the army and retired in 1990. So that means I'm the class of 1960. So again, it means that I'm in my 77th year. SY: Seventy seventh year, congratulations. So where were you born? RL: I was born in Jamestown, New York in 1938. SY: Where is Jamestown? RL: Jamestown is a town that I spent about four months in and then I really grew up in Waterbury, Connecticut. That was an industrial town, blue collar town, brass center of the world during the 19 -- actually up until after the war, until the 1950s. I can remember World War II and the blackouts. I can remember going by the factories that used to run 24 hours a day seven days a week and all the machines click clacking away. And they were making shell casings and that for the war effort. SY: And what were your parents doing during the war? RL: Well my mother was a stay at home mom. I had a sister. And my father ran the F.W. Woolworth Company, five and ten cent store there in town. And so when I was growing up I started working for my father when I was eight years old. And my father would pay me out of his own pocket. SY: Really? RL: Yeah, just because I wanted to earn some money and then I also did things like wash cars for 50 cents and mow lawns for 50 cents. So I was an entrepreneur. SY: I was just going to say, you were a little entrepreneur. Excellent and so when you were a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up? RL: You know it's a funny thing, I had some likes, but I never knew I would follow those. But I love military history. I love to read. And when I was at a very young age, I took my mother's library card and went into the adult section and got books to read. SY: You were one of those -- hold up, I got to close that door because of the sound of the vacuum is much louder on tape. RL: I understand.2 SY: Hey there. F2: Hello. SY: I'm doing interviews and the vacuuming is super loud. Do you know who's vacuuming and why? F2: No idea, but (inaudible) [00:02:31]. SY: OK, well I'll see you tomorrow. We'll just have to deal with the vacuuming. OK so you took the library card and you went -- RL: Into the adult section and got books and read them. I was one of those kids that loved to read and military history was one of my passions you might say. SY: I ask this to everybody actually, did you play war as a kid? RL: Yes, in the sandbox outside my back door. We had a sandbox. And I had plastic soldiers from that timeframe and I used to dig caves and castles and machine gun pits and the whole bit. SY: And was it World War II in your mind, was it World War I, was it the Civil War, was it the Revolutionary War. RL: Well it was World War II because I grew up in that timeframe and that was the thing that was most prevalent at the time. And during that time, you're going to grammar school, if you turned in newspaper and depending on how many bundles, et cetera, et cetera, you get stripes. I don't know if they call that PTA or whatever but there was an emblem you could put on your sleeve on your jacket with stripes on it depending on how much you collected and contributed to the war effort. SY: Interesting. Wow, OK, so the war was very much a part of your childhood. So how did you end up deciding to go to Norwich? RL: Well I went to a prep school, Mount Hermon, which was in Massachusetts, northern Massachusetts. But it was a prep school that part of your tuition was paid with working eight hours a week. And so when I went there I started off in the farm working with dairy cows. And then my second year I was groundskeeper and my third year building cleaning. And the epitome of my career at prep school was that I was a waiter in the dining facility which gave you a lot more free time and you became the friend of a lot of people who liked to sit at your table because you would make sure that you were in the kitchen, the first to get the food, et cetera, et cetera, and they always had second helpings. So I was at Mount Hermon and I applied to three colleges. One I was put on a waiting list, one I was rejected, and the other was Norwich University. Now I was a C+ student. So -- SY: Even with all that reading?3 RL: Oh with all that reading. My reading skills were far superior to my age, but the point being is that I came to Norwich and there was a lieutenant colonel -- no, he wasn't a lieutenant colonel, he was a first sergeant or sergeant major at that time. He was lieutenant colonel my freshman year. But he took me around the school and so impressed me with his attitude towards the school plus also how he treated me as a person that when I left I told my parents that's where I wanted to go. Now you have to realize too at that time all of us had to have a military obligation. Either you went in for six months, then the reserve or you went for two years active duty and that. So we were going to have to go into the military anyway and I loved military history. And when I came to Norwich University I just kind of fit in you might say. SY: Yeah, so what was your experience like as a rook? A lot of people have described a harsh awakening at that moment. Were you prepared? RL: I guess since I've been away to prep school and been away from home and that that I was able to adapt a lot easier maybe than those who had not been. I took it all with a grain of salt. I said these are things you're going to have to put up with so keep your mouth shut and grin and bear it. SY: Now were there some kids -- I know there were a lot of kids who washed out, it was like 51% or something in your class. Dick did the math. He told me. But do you remember, were there kids who got targeted? Do you remember hazing or was it mostly just like this is just something we need to get through, this is an elaborate game? RL: I think that there's always a certain amount of hazing. Hazing not in a real rough or negative sense, but hazing in the sense that maybe one guy or several people just maybe don't fit the mold so therefore they might get a little bit more of harassment than you did. Or maybe that you have adapted and try to do what the cadet is telling you to do, therefore the heat's off you. And we always used to try to help those cadets or rooks who were having a tough time. Heck, we helped polish their shoes. We made sure their uniforms were pressed. Some kids just weren't capable of accomplishing all that. And then you have to say too, I think today at Norwich the qualifications academically and everything have improved a great deal. Now you have SATs and ACT scores. Back in those days, it was based upon submission and also the recommendation from your teachers and of course your grades. But Norwich is a totally different school today versus back in the 1950s. SY: Yeah, but that's interesting. So you do remember helping kids out. RL: Oh yeah, absolutely. And some of the rooks harassed the rooks. I mean it wasn't just upper classmen. But it was sometimes -- it's a predator type of atmosphere and I think it's human nature. You just have to be careful of that and aware of it and make sure that it doesn't happen if you can do something to stop it, you see. SY: Yeah, and that's always the question is how do you keep it from crossing that line. RL: That's right. And it's how strong a person you are. If you're a very strong person with morals and with firm beliefs, then you try to do something to change that, but it's the 4 method in which you change that that's the key. If you're abrasive or in your face or something, the person that you're talking to or trying to get something changed, it's not going to work. You have to be able to balance it out and approach it in the right way in order to get results. And I learned this at Norwich. I used that all through my army career, is to approach something -- always treat the other person like you would like to be treated yourself. When you had a problem with a person, you sometimes had to be tough and some outright terminate his career or whatever, but it sometimes had to be done. It's not the fact that you wanted to do it, but the fact is that they broke the rules and there's nothing that you're going to repair it. You've had it. SY: Do you remember any moments at Norwich when you learned that lesson, any of those like difficult leadership dilemmas? It was a long time ago. RL: Well it's that I remember the good days. I remember one rook who he was never going to make it at Norwich because his intellect was to the point where you would say that it was at a level that was not college level, let me put it that way. Yet we tried to prep him for exams and things like that and we tried but he was finally eliminated because of his academics and he just couldn't do what had to be done. SY: It was almost cruel to keep him in the system. What part of the highs that you remember from your time in Norwich? RL: The comradery. SY: Had you experienced that before at boarding school? RL: No, I don't have friends -- my boarding school was something that I survived it. Academic-wise and everything else, it was a challenge for me. I was actually in a school that I was doing college work and so that prepared me though for Norwich because when I came to Norwich I was fully prepared to face the academics and know how to handle all that. So I got to say, that's a big plus. But when I got to Norwich, my relationships with the school and the profs and everything else, I remember the PMSNT, I remember those people who worked in the PMSNT office. I remember Major Pekoraro who was the engineer major there. And I was a business major but I joined the engineer society because of this major because he was a Korean War veteran who was a POW. And he was a role model. He was tough but just and just the type of person you felt you'd like to be around and learn from. There was a guy named Hardy who was a captain. And I think he had a relative or a brother or something that was going to Norwich at the time and he was an armored guy and he was a friendly, nice person. And then there was -- and some of the names here, I can't -- there was a lieutenant colonel there who also was a very role model. These guys were role models. The PMSNT was the tough guy, didn't have much association with him. But at Norwich I learned, because of our social life with our fraternities and things like that, it gave us an outlet and we had a closer relationship. And I think the class of 1960 has done amazingly well keeping abreast of each other and I've lost in the past year several of my classmates of whom I talked to before they passed on, just several days before they passed on, from the point that I wanted to say goodbye. It's a tough thing to do. You have to realize now that I'm on a 5 shortlist and those guys were important. And I think our class is like that. But Norwich has been a great influence on me because it gave me the opportunity for the leadership positions, I was a cadre member every year. My senior year I was -- we had the freshman battalion at that time and I was made the executive officer in charge of all the academics for all the freshmen. So I had to have academic boards. And we met on those with records of those cadets who were not achieving the standard that needed to be to graduate. So we would review their records and then recommended action, help, tutoring, or whatever it needed to try to get that kid back on track to get the rook, get them through that first year. SY: Do you think that type of dedication to the wellbeing of your rooks made you a better leader in the military later? RL: I think it did, but let me relate something that happened at summer camp. I was in the honor tank platoon and I also was -- SY: Hold on a second. It's like we're crossed here, it's like star crossed, you know what I mean. RL: I don't know if you can -- SY: I'm going to see if I can get Heather. (inaudible) [00:15:00] They're redoing the library. But it's like if somebody's talking in the hallway -- but they're right over there. She's going to ask. If she doesn't, we might just need to shell this as well into the back. RL: Are we going to have repeat all this again? SY: No, I can edit it together. But I want people to be able to listen to actual sound clips that don't involve listening to somebody -- RL: You can say that's combat. (laughter) You can hear the guns in the background, you know. SY: Exactly, this is so authentic that I took my recording all the way into whatever. Did Heather work her magic? I think she might've worked her -- RL: No, I don't think she's had time to -- and I don't think they're going to stop. They're on a time schedule and what's going to happen is they're going to just drive you nuts and have you do it. SY: You know this happens, they don't do work for days and I don't know their schedule and I can't ever get it. And then I'm like, "Great, they're done for a while." Then I bring someone in. This has happened to me like two or three times. RL: Well let me think. Want to try? SY: Yeah, let's keep talking.6 RL: If we can't maybe I can do something tomorrow, if I can. SY: Yeah, if you can you can pop by and if not, you're going to be back in October. RL: OK, we were talking about ROTC and summer camp. And I went to summer camp at Fort Knox -- thank you. SY: You're awesome. RL: And when I was there, we had two companies, A and B, and I was company A. And we had a lot of Norwich grads were there, plus VMI, plus Citadel, plus from all over, from all the ROTC units. And this was at Fort Knox. And there were two incidents that I remember vividly. One is that on a Saturday afternoon in 90 degree heat in my khaki uniform with an M1 on my shoulder, I was walking guard duty around the barracks that we lived in, World War II barracks. And the rest of the cadets were getting ready to go off because after twelve o'clock on Saturday they could go into town and do all that and I had the guard duty. I was on guard. And so I was walking around the barracks and one of the tac officers came up to me from Norwich and I reported to him and the general orders and the whole bit. And I was soaking wet. And he says, "Well how's it going?" And I turn to him and I said and I was facing him and I said, "Well sir I'm going to tell you that this has taught me one lesson, that I will never go into this man's army as a private." And he laughed. Well let me tell you, I was very serious about that. And then it came to where we were closing out and we were going to rate our contemporaries in the barracks and that. One of my classmates came up to me and said, "Ron," he says, "Don't you worry." He says, "Me and the boys are going to take care of you." And what he meant was that of all the Norwich guys and all the guys in that barracks that these guys had gotten together and rated me number one. SY: And why were you rated number one. RL: Because I think they liked me. You can't question that because you never are actively trying -- you're treating people the way you want to be treated. And you want to be a leader in the sense that you do the right thing at the right time and for the right reason. But when he came up and told me that and there were some pretty high powered Norwich guys in the cadet corps and they were going to be -- running the regiment that coming year. And so when it all came out there were two guys ranked top in armor ROTC summer camp. One was from VMI and one was from Norwich. It was me and one other guy. And so we went up head on head competition and the guy from VMI won out, which is fine because I went in there kind of naïve and I didn't know what to expect. But the point being was that I had the opportunity, Norwich had the opportunity, and Norwich did well at summer camp. And that was all that was important to me. So those things impacted on me and also the professors like Loring Hart who later became president of the university, he was my English teacher. And I was the news editor on the Guidon. And we had some West Point cadets come up because we had fraternities at that time, they said to us, "Boy do you guys have it great here," because of the social life and everything. And that was the greatest thing about Norwich. Norwich has always been about the citizen soldier. Now this is before we had civilian students, so you got to 7 realize that what I'm talking about here is my time at Norwich as a cadet corps, the citizen soldier. They trained us to go out into the world and be a civilian but if the country needed us, to come back and to serve our country. And that was our whole philosophy. SY: And I think the other element of the citizen solider that I find compelling is the idea that you're a thinking citizen with a trained mind and you also know how to follow orders, right? RL: Absolutely. SY: And so I'm wondering as you sort of went on in the army if that training as a citizen soldier ever got you into trouble. Did those two things ever clash, your moral code, your ethics, your trained mind, and, "Do this?" RL: Well I think it could and maybe did. It's like yes and no. There's only two answers. There's a no or a yes and there's nothing in between. Now therefore you become very moralistic, moral, saying, "OK, that's wrong." But in the real world, there's a middle line there and you have to try to come to grips with that. Sometimes you can't stomach it. I mean sometimes it's either yes or no and that's it. I find that too many times people are not willing to say yes or no, they're willing to kind of muddy the water and go with a middle direction and that may not be the best way to do. And sometimes, and this I shouldn't probably say, but I say sometimes that affects our policies and the way we look at combat and the way we look at what's happening out there. SY: Was there ever a time when you said no? Was there ever a time you sort of refused an order? RL: Refuse an order? SY: Where you're like, "I don't think this is right." RL: No, I have found in life that you never -- if you're given an order and you're in a public place and that, don't ever say no, ever. The time to say no is after in private because I have learned that commanders do not want to be criticized in front of their troops or in front of a group. And they will cut you off at the knees. And I understand, some people didn't. You don't get in an argument if you're briefing and the commander is saying something that you may not agree with or is trying to correct you, you let them do it. Point being is you correct it after the briefing or whatever. And if he still does not accept your evaluation of such and such, then you let it go. Now to say that you always do what you're told to do, yeah you better watch out because if you're told to do by the commander and he comes back and checks and it's not done, you're going to lose your job. But if you're told to do something and find a better way to do it, that's a different story. So you have to think. It's not just those things, yes sir two bags full. It's the point is, "Yes sir," and think about, then how to get it done. If it's an impossible thing to do, and I ran across this when I was a battalion commander, and it was during a timeframe where we were faced with cuts in the budget and we weren't getting the right maintenance equipment and things like that. And my troops were living in World War II barracks where in the wintertime we had to almost wrap the whole building in cellophane 8 in order to keep the wind out and the cold out. And we had oil furnaces that sometimes went belly up. And in the summer time my troops were dragging their mattresses outside and sleeping in the street because it was so hot inside. And I had a confrontation with my brigade commander, support command commander. And I went into his office and told him I did not have to be motivated by his letter of reprimand. And he looked at me and he says, "Is that all?" And I said, "Yes sir." "You're dismissed." And I walked out. And these are World War II barracks and one of the clerks had called the other battalion commanders and they came running to the support command headquarters. And they said, "What did you do? Why did you do a dumb thing like that?" He says, "All of us have gotten these letters of reprimand," but this is the way the colonel commanded his troops with giving them letters of reprimand to light fires under them. Well I was not -- if somebody had told me this before, maybe I would've been a little mellow, but I wasn't. And I was just stubborn enough to go in and confront him. And I'm not encouraging people to do that, think it out, let it cool off before you do something. But from that day on, that commander and I had a great relationship. SY: He respected you? RL: He and I would sit down on a Saturday morning because we were working six days a week, sometimes seven days a week. And this isn't peace time now. And he would say, "OK." And with the problems that he knew were happening with the battalion, he would say, "OK." And then he would write notes to that battalion commander for maintenance or admin for people. He'd tell them I want so and so and so done. Or he'd look at me say, "That's your responsibility. You take care of it." And you damn well better take care of it because he was giving you support but you were responsible for all this, now you get it done. And when he left, years and years later, I was at Arlington National Cemetery visiting the grave of my mother-in-law. And my wife and I walked up the hill. This is just below where the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is. And as I walked up and went onto the road, right across that street was a gravestone, a major general, who had been my support command commander. And I have done a composite book for all three of my children of my military record and in there I positively made this statement of this incident where he gave me a letter of reprimand. And what I said is that if I ever have to go to war, I want to go to war with this man because I knew that that was a man that I respected, that was a man that I knew he could do what he said he could do and he demanded that of his troops and he wouldn't take a "No." When he said, "Do it," you well knew it was to your benefit to do it. He had served three tours in Vietnam. He was highly decorated. He had been an enlisted man and then went to the prep school and then went to West Point. It was a guy I respected. SY: You trusted him. RL: Yeah. And you knew that he'd take care of you. But in order to survive in the battlefield, you had to learn and you had to do what he said because he had the experience. Now when you got the experience, you see, and then he would rely upon you to get the job done. But he'd tell you what to do and then it was up to you to do it. And how you did it, that was up to you.9 SY: Yeah, that's interesting. So let's rewind a little. So you finish up Norwich and you commission. And where do you go, what do you commission? RL: Well after I got my commission I went to -- because my eyes were not good enough for combat arms, I was commissioned in the transportation corps, but I had to serve three years in combat arms, that was the rule. So they sent me to Fort Benning. And I went to infantry officer basic course. I went to airborne school and then I went to ranger school. And if you ever need any stories about those schools, back in those days, I could tell you some that were -- again, it's one of those things where it is rough, but boy oh boy, you got to roll with the punches and you can have some good belly laughs out of it. SY: Well tell me one of them. RL: Well down in Florida during the jungle training, they kept you awake. They kept you on constant patrol, patrol, patrol. They wanted you to be exhausted, to see how you would react and how you could do it. Well we kept going out and out on patrols and we had a plan and usually we went out at night time, at night patrols. And I was the last guy in the patrol and I carried an M1 rifle. And we had these little florescent things attached to our cap where you can see the guy in front of you so you could follow him. And we were going through the swamps and there was a log there and I stepped over a log. And I took a step off the log and I went up to my waist in mud. And I looked around and there was nobody there. The guys had kept on going. They didn't know I was stuck in the mud. So here they are and you're not trying to shout or anything, but luckily the guy in front of me looked behind and didn't see me and sent the word up to halt for a minute. He came back and he had to pull me out of the mud or I would've been there to this day. And the fact is that we got through all this and we did all this and we were in the mountains one time and I had the automatic rifle slung across my neck and this is with the ammunition pouches and everything. We're walking up this mountain road and they said take a break. And I was on the left hand column, so I went off to the side of the road and just squatted to lean, I thought against a bank. Well there was no bank. And I went over head over heels down the side of this mountain and came up flat against a tree with my feet up in the air. And I wasn't hurt and I got myself out of that. So I called back up onto the road. Guys hauled me up. And we had a good chuckle about that. But it was stupid instances like that. They weren't funny to anybody else, but in our state of mind they were. And you never forget them. SY: Yeah, absolutely. So you do all of those different schools and then where's your first placement? RL: My first assignment was in Germany with the First of the Fifteenth Infantry Company B. That was the company that Audie Murphy served in during the Second World War. And as you know he was the most decorated of our military heroes. And at the time I arrived we were a straight infantry. We walked everywhere. We weren't mechanized. And while I was there, I was there a year and a half in Bamberg, Germany, and our mission was we would deploy to -- if the Russians came through the Fulda Gap to delay them as long as we could until the armor could move up to confront the enemy. So ours was the delaying action. Well while I was there, we became mechanized with armored personnel 10 carriers. But during that time we didn't have them, we would walk to training areas one way, either in the morning or walk back in the afternoon and be trucked out in the morning or be trucked back in the afternoon, one of them. But we walked one way because there was a gas shortage at that time. So periodically an infantry platoon was in our company was sent out to what they call a forward position, an infantry platoon plus an engineer platoon. And we had a cantonment area out there, barracks and all. And it was our job, we stayed in communication with the base, that if the balloon did go up and the Russians did come across then we had certain missions to protect the engineers in blowing bridges and et cetera, et cetera. And that's what our job was. And my job out there was to call unannounced alerts, usually early in the morning, and then the guys all had to jump, get dressed, and in the trucks, and gone out of the cantonment area to their designated positions. Now we did that for a year and a half and then because I was a transportation corps officer and had served my time in the combat arms, I was sent to Berlin, Germany. At that time it was a walled city. They were still building some of the wall. And it was isolated. There were four sections, French, British, American, and Soviet. And the Soviet section was walled in and you could only go -- usually you hear, "Checkpoint Charlie." Checkpoint Charlie was a real point in the wall with barbed wire and everything. Now I understand it's just like a block of concrete or something in the road. Well back then, it was real life. And I saw places where refugees had tried to climb the wall and had been terminated, had been killed. SY: So you saw their blood on the wall? RL: Well you knew where they were because the bodies had been taken away and we knew where they had tried to get across. But at that time I was a train commander and as a train commander I took the train from Berlin to Helmstedt which was in the western zone through the Russian zone. And we had to stop the train in Marienborn for a Soviet checkpoint. We wouldn't deal with East Germans. We didn't recognize the East Germans. We dealt with the Russians only. That was the politics of the time. And a Russian officer would be there. I had an interpreter and we would check every document for every person that was on the train. And sometimes you could tell when tensions were high the Russian officers would be really SOBs and when tensions were not high then they were more friendly. But there were always a couple of Russian officers who were SOBs regardless of what. However, I did that for a good year and at the same time I had a good buddy who had been in the infantry in one of the other battle groups in the same town, had been my roommate in Bamberg, Germany where we had been stationed, who reverted to the MP corps and came to Berlin and was riding the freight trains, the same route, everything else, but on a different track. But he was in charge of the MP detail that was on the freight trains. And I remember one time we got stopped in the middle of the Russian zone and I looked out my window of my passenger train and there was the freight train and there was my buddy. "How are you doing?" We put the window down, we'd chit chat before one of the trains moved on. He was going west and I was going east. But there were times like that and Berlin was -- SY: Were there any really high tension moments that you had?11 RL: Well yeah it was because you didn't know how they were going to react. I mean they could be real SOBs or they could be -- the thing is is that at that time you didn't want to take a chance of not following the rules. Berlin was the showcase of Western Europe. They had rebuilt it from the war and the contrast between West Berlin and the Soviet, it was like night and day. I was a staff officer for part of my time there and I had to take a Sedan and a driver and drive into the Russian sector just to show the flag. And sometimes I would get out to walk and I would take pictures of some -- Berlin before the war must've been a magnificent, beautiful city because I could tell you the architecture and everything else. And then the apartment buildings that the Russians had built looked about as drab and falling apart as you could ever believe. So that's why they had to put up the wall, that's why they had to stop the rupture of East Germans coming into the West. And cultural wise and everything else, the western zone -- guys, you couldn't have asked for anything more. And Kennedy came and paraded through West Berlin. I was there. I was there between like ten feet away, fifteen feet away, and believe it or not there was a Norwich graduate there, my class, name of Bob Francis who was in the signal corps. And I don't know if he was taking pictures for whatever, but he was there during the parade. I saw him and talked to him. Now when Kennedy lost his life, the Berliners, when he said ich bin ein Berliner and they just went crazy. They loved him. So when he died, they turned out every light in West Berlin. They turned out every light. There wasn't a light there and lit candles in their windows, put candles in their windows. SY: Do you remember where you were when you found out that Kennedy had been shot? RL: I was in Berlin, where exactly I can't remember. I just know that the effect it had on the Berliners and on the world was amazing. And the Berliners loved this man just from the standpoint of what he said that time and he had come. And the respect, the showing of respect by candles, putting them in the windows, and turning out all the other lights was amazing. No other president has been honored, I don't think, with such sincerity. People try to emulate, but unfortunately they fall far short. SY: Was there ever a moment when you were in Berlin or Germany in general where you were like, "This Cold War is about to get hot," where you thought, "Oh, it's going to start?" Did Dick tell me a story? Was it your story about a plane where if it took off, that was going to be a reaction? He said something about a plane. I don't know what I'm talking about. RL: That was Vietnam. SY: That was Vietnam. That was later. OK. RL: I keep hitting that. I can't remember because it was always there and you were always prepared. And so to say one point over another, I can't remember such. Now I did have a friend there who flew helicopters and I do remember flying over Hitler's bunker that was totally destroyed from the Second World War and there was just nothing but dirt, concrete, that had never been rebuilt. Little things like that I remember. I remember going to see the ballet, Swan Lake as a matter of fact. They brought all of these wonderful cultural things into Berlin to show people the difference between the two 12 countries or philosophies you might say. But to think about the tensions, yeah, but when we were told to make staff rides and to be in total communication with our headquarters because we never knew when our cars might be stopped and something might happen. But other than that, no. SY: Yeah, it was just a pervasive feeling? RL: It was a constant reminder and harassment to leave Berlin. To drive, it was going through checkpoints. And then you didn't know if you were going to get let back in and all of these things. But life goes on. SY: OK, so then you leave Berlin and where do you go next? RL: Well from Berlin I went to -- and let me relate something here too about Norwich. Back when I was a senior, Norwich had corporations come in to recruit and to interview you and that. Eastman Kodak came in and I was supposed to see them and I didn't. Eastman Kodak wrote me a letter and it said, "When you have your military obligation finished, let us know and we'll bring you to Rochester." So when I came back from overseas, there was a question there whether I would stay in the army or not. Not serious, but I wanted to explore all of my options. So I went to Rochester. They offered me a job and et cetera, et cetera, but I did stay in the military. SY: Why'd you decide to stay in? RL: Well maybe it was something I was used to, you felt comfortable in. You have a driving flame to be the general or something? No, I just felt comfortable in what I was doing. I liked what I was doing. And so I kind of just stuck with it. SY: And this is what? Now we're at '64? RL: Yes. SY: So Vietnam is just starting to get on people's radar. RL: The big buildup was '65, '66 when they started sending all the divisions over. And then of course '67, '68 being the Tet Offensive. So I was assigned out to Fort Lewis. And then I was only there a year and I was given orders to go to Fort Bragg to be trained as a Special Forces officer. So I reported into Fort Bragg and was trained. And the revolution in the Dominican Republic occurred. And the 82nd Airborne was deployed to the Dominican Republicans, so they sent a contingence of Special Forces down there, and I was one of those. My mission there was more -- as a detachment commander I was small team, modified team, intelligence gathering upcountry on the island. And then I came back after that and was the S4 for the unit. SY: So this is the revolution and opposition to Trujillo? RL: Trujillo had been assassinated. And the communist were trying to take over the country. And luckily the Dominicans were -- and the 82nd Airborne -- the US was asked to come 13 in and help. And they contained the uprising in the inner city of Santo Domingo, the inner city. And they barb wired it. They had literally barb wire all around the old city and kept the communist in there. Now there were some in the country, in other places and towns, but the Dominican Republic was set up as -- the police force was almost as strong as the army because every police force had a fort in every town. And they had their own weapons, et cetera, et cetera. And the police force was pretty brutal if there was any question at all. Like I was on jump status down there on the island and we used to jump over sugar cane fields. And nine out of ten times -- for practice and to keep proficient -- the police force or the military had brought in who they thought were rebels and popped them, dumped bodies in there. So you found those things. So there was a certain amount of strong armed tactics that the Dominicans were imposing against their own people. But these people were looked upon as Communists and were trying to take over the country. SY: So how did you react to that, finding those bodies in the fields? RL: I walked away. I wasn't going to bury them and I kind of took a pragmatic look at it. I said, "You know what, there is nothing I can do about it. These guys are dead. The diplomats are down here trying to effect an election where the people will elect a Democratic president. We're doing the best job that we can to provide a stable atmosphere for this to take place." And other than that -- and I was upcountry, as I say, intelligent gathering. And I will say that the country was pretty quiet. We had a few times where intelligence was -- radioed back. But the people on a whole were wonderful, hardworking people. And when I was the S4 of the unit, I went down to the quartermaster where our food depot was and that. And believe it or not, the doctors would condemn food, the package was open or something. It wasn't good enough for US soldier consumption. And there were no, what I call, rat turds in it or anything else, but it was just sitting there or a can was dented or something. I would police up all these food stuffs and with approval, the doctors said, "No that's OK but we can't serve this to the troops because of the rules." So I gather this up and we had other outposts in the country. And then I would fly up in a helicopter and give the food out to the people. I felt that was something because they were very, very poor. Let me tell you, the country at that time was -- SY: Oh I've spent time there. It still is. RL: I mean trash and everything, you couldn't believe it. Now it's a resort area though. SY: Except where it's not. RL: I'm sorry, but my personal opinion is that there are some places in the world that never improve. Why is it that the -- again, it's the old power grab. Those that have, have and those that don't -- unfortunately. We try to change that in so many places in the world and we've always done the right thing, for the most part, but it's a very tough, tough thing to do. And they can only help themselves. 14 SY: So that's an intense period of time in the DR. And then you come back and then they're like, "Oh, since you had that nice, intense experience, we're going to send you somewhere easy. How about you go to Vietnam?" I'm kidding obviously. RL: That's right. No, no, I went to school at Fort Eustis, had a job there for six months in the educational department doing reviewing training and things like that. And then I went off to Vietnam. On the way over I took a delay in route and visited Japan, Okinawa, and Taiwan because I had gone to school with a couple of Chinese officers who were stationed on Taiwan. I visited with them before I went to Vietnam. SY: Did you have any idea what you were getting into? RL: No, because I didn't know where I was going to be assigned at the time and when I arrived there at Tan Son Nhat Airport, we were getting rocketed and we lived in tents until they made our assignments. And I was assigned as a transportation corps officer to the fourth transportation command, which was working pier operations and that in Saigon. And I was a pier operations officer for part of my tour there. And this was before Tet Offensive. And we had barge sights that were out of town and I used to go by myself with a 45 strapped to my hip and drive like hell. [We went either by the River in a boat or drove to each barge site.] But at that time, we didn't realize how the VC had infiltrated the area and how serious the problem was. I was extremely lucky. I always thought in my career that I had a guardian angel watching over me because there were so many times where it could've gone the other way. And I remember this, just the night before -- actually the night that I was out and did something, which I won't say right here, it was all job related. I was out there alone in the delta and I came back and that morning was when the VCs struck. And when somebody from Cholon, which was the Chinese sector, some of the officers were going out to the headquarters and got ambushed, shot up, they never made it. And all hell broke loose. And I remember that the VC drove the people on the outlining communities into the city. I remember outside the port area, the one street was just -- one night -- was just crammed with refugees just streaming into the city trying to get away from the fighting. And there were a lot of other incidents where we had ships that were sitting out trying to get up the Saigon River to offload and they'd be spending days and days out there because the port was just jammed with ships and we were trying to offload the equipment and everything and we couldn't get them all up. And some of these ships were commercial ships with cargo holes. And they were rocketed and there were gaping holes in the sides and in the upper structure and things like that because they had to travel up through the delta, in a winding river which wasn't very wide to get to Saigon. And those guys, the bad guys, were out there. And we did our job. And I had a very good friend who was a helicopter pilot. And I remember we had to go to Vung Tau one time and we were in a Huey and we had a number of technicians with us and things like that. And we were flying along the delta and we were skimming the delta. We weren't flying high. We were just skimming. And all of the sudden I just hear this whomp, whomp, whomp, whomp and all of the sudden my buddy in the pilot chair, the whole chopper, he was trying to lift it, almost physically lift that chopper to get altitude because we were under fire. And this guy I have a great admiration for. He's been a friend for a good, long time -- got us out of the situation. We 15 got above it all and flew on to Vung Tau. And we got out. We looked and we were just lucky. Again, it's a matter of time, where you are, and sometimes just plain luck. SY: Right place, right time. Wrong place, wrong time. Did you have any -- I know some people had sort of superstitious good luck charms or things they did to -- were there things in Vietnam that you did to just kind of keep yourself safe in your own mind. RL: Nope. I just kind of -- I tell you quite frankly, I remember the presidential palace, right across the street from my billet. I mean the VC were so close into the city and Saigon was a beautiful town. Well let me say this, Tudor Street which was all tree lined, but during war time a lot of bars and bar girls and all that. But a beautiful town, some really fine French restaurants, but when they say Pearl of the Orient, it was prior to this time. I would say after the war, World War II because I don't think there was much damage there during World War II. But it must've been a beautiful country. SY: So when you were in Vietnam, a lot of people, it was an existential crisis for them. It brought on a lot of doubts about why they were there, what they were doing, the nature of war itself. Was that your experience or did you -- RL: I think that you could dwell on that if you wanted to. But I also think it's in the situation which you're placed in. If you're under a great deal of stress, if you're under fire, if your life is -- it might be snuffed out in a minute's notice, that you start to think about it more and say, "Why the heck am I here, God protect me. Let me just get out of this." And it so shocks your system that that images, they keep reoccurring. It's like your memory buds have been lit up and those things keep coming back in flashes. So I think it's all based upon the situation and where you are and what you're doing. SY: It sounds like you weren't in combat directly. RL: I wasn't directly in combat. I could've been shot because of snipers or anything else. But did I have a rifle in my hand and going out into the jungle, no I did not. My job was to ensure that cargo got lifted off of these ships onto barges or any place else and was delivered to the troops. And I did that. When I got promoted to major, then I was, due to a recommendation by one of my instructors at the transportation school, they recommended me for a staff position. And so they moved me -- still in the Saigon port, but I was at a staff position while I was there, the rest of the time I was there. I was there thirteen months. I was given a special project to do and I told the command that I would stay there until it was finished. So rather than twelve months, I spent thirteen months. SY: Do you remember the first day you arrived and the day you left? RL: I remember the first day I arrived. SY: What was your impression? RL: It was hot, steamy hot. We had a tent city. And there were hundreds of troops in a cantonment area at Tan Son Nhat Airforce Base. Planes coming and going. And I wasn't there very long. And then I was assigned to a unit in Saigon where I was working nights. 16 So I would sleep in daytime. So I do remember the arrival and coming off the plane. But going home, I'd have a hard time. SY: You weren't counting down your days? Well no, because you had that special project, so it wasn't like you were sure. RL: Well I knew I was going to stay. I mean I just knew it. I knew that I was going to do this and that was it. It's hard to -- SY: Was it hard to adjust to coming back home after being in Vietnam? RL: I came back. I was stationed at Fort Monroe. And I worked for the training command there. And I was responsible for the training budget of all the service schools around the United States, to include the aviation schools at Fort Wolters, Rucker, all this. And I remember I worked for a guy named General Pepke and his deputy was a General Andrews. Pepke was a two star at that time and Andrews was a one star. And I had a very responsible position because at that time, believe it or not, in the early '70s, they were downsizing to get out of Vietnam and the school budgets were being cut. And I remember the DA staff called me about the aviation budget for our aviation schools. And I worked with two colonels, lieutenant colonels, who became general officers and trying to save the aviation budget from being cut to the bone. And I remember I worked on a lot of projects and was flying back and forth between Fort Monroe and Washington to work with these officers and try to save as much as we could. And that was I think a turning point probably in my career because I had not been selected for the Commander and General Staff College yet, I was a major. Now Commander and General Staff School is very important to you. I hadn't been selected yet. So there was an opportunity there and I was already working on my master's degree, going to night school. Now I was working constantly with a high pressure job and I was going to school for my master's degree with George Washington and I was doing commander general staff work with the reserve unit at Fort Eustis which was about 20 miles away. SY: You were a busy guy. RL: So I was going to school for four nights a week plus weekends working plus doing my job plus doing the papers and studying and doing all the things you have to do. So I was out and that's why I say to people don't ever get discouraged, don't let people tell you that you're not going to make it or you're not going to do something. You have to keep plugging away and rely upon yourself to be good enough to do it. So I have to say that I wasn't married at the time, so your social life goes to hell in a handbasket. See, you have to set your priorities. And there's another thing that Norwich is going to help you do is set priorities and know what's important and what's not important in life because you have to look down the pike. Think outside the box and then see what it's going to be like ten -- 15 -- 20 years from now. So if you want a career, you got to work for it. And they're not going to hand it to you. You go out and get it. You prove your point to them. So all this happened and I finished up my Commander and General Staff stuff, I got my master's degree, and they shipped me to Korea.17 SY: Now at this point you must be tired. RL: Well I'm going to tell you right now, the thing is that you learn something from your education, from Norwich, which is to press on. It's the old thing as can do, I will try, whatever. Can do was my infantry, first of the fifteenth, can do outfit, Norwich was I will try. And those things drive you, especially if you have fire in your belly and you want to go someplace. And you're not satisfied with just sitting on your butt and hoping that it's going to happen. So I go to Korea and I work for 8th Army HQ in Seoul and I'm a logistical staff officer and out of the blue the general calls me in and said, "Oh by the way you're going to continue as a logistical staff officer, but you're now the missile maintenance officer for Korea." That's an ordinance job and the ordinance officer had just gone home and they didn't have anybody. So now I'm responsible and the problem they had with the Hawk missile program which is a Raytheon product was they were getting about 40% reliability. And DA was holy hell on the command. So I had to do something about that. Well let me put it this way, it's a twelve month tour in Korea. And my assignment officer, the big assignment officer from DA, came over and he says, "Hey, yeah Lotz, you're going to the armed forces staff college." So I said, "Hey look, I've been to Leavenworth." He says, "You're going to the joint school, the armed forces staff college, in Norfolk." And I said, "Well when's this going to happen." He said, "Your next class is six or seven to eight months out," after I come back. I said, "What will I be doing?" He said, "You'll snowbird." Well snowbird is that you go there and you do whatever the school tells you to do. And I told him, I said, "No, I don't want to do that." I stayed in Korea 18 months. I worked on the job I did and when I did that, the reliability of the Hawk missile was at 94%. I had done a whole refurbishment program on the other missiles that we had in budget, I had set up budgets for refurbishment, did all of that, and so I came out of Korea with what they call is a dual job efficiency report because I did two jobs in one. And then I went to the armed forces staff college. SY: There you go. And then you get married. RL: No, not yet. I got to school. I went through school. I was assigned to the military personnel center where I was given a job as the lead on women in the army. I used to brief the DA staff. I used to go over there with all the statistics because we were trying to create a model that would determine the grade and MOS and how to bring them in without having big bubbles and all of that, et cetera, et cetera. And I used to go over with these big, in those days, printouts like this and I used to brief the DA staff. And I used to bring these printouts to them and I'd say generals if you don't believe what I'm saying, you can read it. And I drop it on the floor and they'd all laugh. We're talking about two or three stars and they all laugh because they know they aren't going to do that thing. So they were listening to what I was saying, it's the how we were trying to work this. And I wasn't trying to be smart. I was just trying to lighten the load, just be a little levity there. And I was recommended for the Pace Award because of that and I was given a special award. And I met my wife in Washington. My wife, I was trying to get a date with her and she was busy or I was busy. One time I just got fed up and said, "Are you free Friday night? Can we go out?" And she finally said yes. And so her father was a retired colonel infantry which she never let me forget. And we went out to dinner and dancing down in Washington. And I said to her that night, I said, "I think I'm going to marry 18 you." She said she'd never marry a military guy. And she says, "I think you're right." I've been married ever since, the same woman, very happily married. SY: That's a lovely story. So we've been talking for like about an hour and fifteen minutes. RL: And you want to know something? You got more than you need. SY: And I think you probably want to -- I don't want to take up your whole day. RL: No, and I got to get going. SY: Yeah, exactly. So any last thoughts? This was great. Let me -- RL: It's too much, I know. But I'm telling you stories. SY: No, no, you're telling me stories. This is all really important. RL: We haven't gotten to the point where I got to be a battalion commander about this guy, Pendleton, who used to be -- I'll tell you that a different time. But that's the leadership team. There's what you face as a battalion commander. There is where you have distress and strain of seven days a week, 24 hours a day and have to take care of the troops. SY: So when we have more time, we'll really go into that. I'll put a pin in this. So let's pick. So when we talked on the phone yesterday, you were talking about how you think that in terms of remembering war there's this unfair hierarchy where combat stories are valued more highly than other stories. So do you want to speak to that? RL: It's the perception that people have that when you mention warfare, they think of combat because that's what it's all about. You wouldn't have a war unless somebody was fighting. So we focus on those people who are in combat because they're the ones nine out of ten times who get wounded or there's fatalities and things like that. But we forget about those who support the combat troops, the combat service support troops, and things like that, that there's a huge number of people behind supplying and taking care of, the medical people and the supply people and the transportation people and all these people that are supporting the combat role. Even the artillery people, the combat service support, it's a team and we can't forget that there's a large team behind the combat lines that are supporting those in the trenches. SY: And also I'm sure that in Vietnam even though you were behind the lines, you still were in danger all the time I would imagine. RL: Well you were because the way the war was there, you didn't know who your enemy was because the enemy melded in with the populace. And the snipers and the ambushes and things like that that could happen at any time. So you always had to be prepared. The convoys had to be prepared even in the city sometimes, especially during the Tet Offensive in '68, the Tet Offensive. A lieutenant working with us was ambushed and was killed. So it could happen at any time. And there was no front lines in the First World19 War. It was a trench. And you knew those bad guys were on that side and you were on the other side. It's a different war out there during my service. SY: Yeah. What was it like to live with that constant anxiety and confusion? You were there for a long time? RL: Well yeah, but the thing is is that you didn't dwell on it because if you dwelt on it, then you were afraid all the time and you couldn't get your job done and you couldn't function. So you put it out of your mind. It's one of those things that when you're put under stress, you look to God to say, "Make sure I get through this." SY: Were there ever moments when it broke through and felt that fear, like I don't know, going to bed at night or waking up in the morning or things like that? RL: Only from the standpoint of anxiety you might say. There were times -- the night before the Tet Offensive, I had to go to a barge site and I went alone and I had to go through the city across the bridge outside the city. And the Vietnamese troops were guarding the bridge and so I pulled up in my Jeep and they looked at me and I said, "I got to go to the barge site," which was a couple miles away. You had to go through this little village and all. And they looked like as if I was nuts. But I went and this was about one o'clock in the morning. And I went through the village down to the barge site, checked it out, the operation and everything, and came back and at dawn that same day the next vehicle that came into that village was ambushed. Well there for the grace of God, go I. So there's no way of telling what's going to happen at times. And so the anxiety level is there but you can't dwell on it and you do your job. SY: Does your training keep you from dwelling on it? RL: I think so, yeah, if you know what you're doing. It definitely is a big plus. If you didn't know what you were doing, your anxiety level would really be high because then you would be looking in the shadows. It's not that you're not conscious of what's going on around you because your training develops that instinct to look at certain things and evaluate certain -- and quickly and whether it's safe or not safe. So from that standpoint, yeah your training is a key factor into how you react and how you look at things. It tells you when to go and not to go at times. So it can be a life saver. SY: So I interviewed a guy just last month or a couple weeks ago and he was also an officer. He was also a logistics guy behind the scenes, but it was in Iraq and as we know there's no real distinction between combat and noncombat anymore. And he was describing when he came back, it took him a while to realize that he had some of the signs of PTSD. He needed the quick fix. He had the hypervigilance. He was seeking out thrills and things like that. And I'm wondering if -- it was talked about less in Vietnam, especially if you'd come back and function, it wasn't talked about at all. But did you when you came back experience trouble adjusting back into a civilian -- not civilian because you're still in but? RL: Well I think maybe I had a sense of -- I was self-sufficient you might say. I could handle my emotions. I could -- so I'm self-sufficient you might say, not a loner, but able to cope 20 you might say better than others. And because of my background, because of how I was brought up, because of everything, that all contributes to how you adapt and can assimilate all that happens to you in a combat zone when you come back and try to come back into the community. The associations you have with your family, the associations you have with people, how you view the world and everything else, all of that's a factor in what affects you up here in your head. SY: Claire, can you tell them to be quiet nicely? F2: Sure. RL: See that all affects how you look on life. And so from that standpoint I would say that I didn't come back with a lot of anxiety, I came back to a world that was safe, the world that hadn't been effected by war, a world that I didn't have to watch out. SY: Was it strange to like sleep in a nice comfortable and to eat delicious food? RL: No. SY: It just was easy? RL: It was easy. I assimilated right back in. But I tell you, that's based on attitude too. And you got to realize this, you don't always sleep on the floor. You don't always sleep and live out of a rucksack. There were cantonment areas and things like that. In Vietnam it was like they were trying, because the war wasn't popular, is they tried to bring all the comforts of home to Vietnam. So for the combat troops when they weren't out in the field, they could come back to a cantonment area with all -- good food, rest, relaxation, et cetera, et cetera. And they also had the R&R where they could go over to Australia or to Japan or wherever and Thailand. So there were certain things and they tried in Vietnam to try to keep guys in combat maybe six months and then six months in a rural area. So there's all different aspects that you have to consider when you look how a person's going to react when he comes back. SY: Are there any, I don't know -- when you think about Vietnam, I don't know how often you think about it now. Are there smells, images, feelings that you remember, anything that sticks with you? One guy, I read his memoir, he talked about the smell because they were burning poop where he was living. RL: That was up at a cantonment area. We had the outside latrines and all that and they had to do it to get rid of it. A lot of times in the Orient you'll find they'd throw it on their fields, in the rice, and all that. They use it for fertilizing. Well the Germans did too and animal manure was – used as fertilizer. SY: Welcome to Vermont spring. RL: Well you had the old honey wagon. So in Germany they used to pour it onto the fields. And that's why you had to be careful of what you ate and things like that, especially in the Orient. What I remember about Vietnam, the food, not the American but I mean the 21 Vietnamese food. I do remember the time where there was during the Tet Offensive a lot of rocket attacks right across the street from where I was staying and the presidential palace wasn't too far, like two blocks away. The thing was that the rocket attacks would come in and then I remember one morning they heavily rocketed that area and the concussions and the noise you hit the floor, and then I ran outside because right across the street there was a Vietnamese family and a rocket had hit the house. And so this other fellow and I ran inside, up the rubble, actually the rubble, and got into the front entrance because the family had children. And we found the family, luckily nobody was hurt. They were underneath the stairs and they had been saved because they had taken shelter underneath the stairs where that closet or whatever it was saved them. And we hauled them out. I remember that. I remember working in the Saigon port and on the Saigon River. I remember that little incidence where we took ground fire. I remember little things like that. SY: Yeah, I bet the food was amazing. RL: The food was. I thought the food -- Oriental food can be quite good. When I was stationed in Korea I used to eat on the economy all the time. And you'd sit on a pillow and fold your legs and a lot of times they had a grill in front of you and things like that. I liked Korean beer. SY: Korean beer is good. I like Korean barbeque too. So we haven't gotten talk about you being -- you were a brigade commander right? RL: I was a brigade commander. SY: How many people were in your brigade? RL: It was thousands. I was a commander of the school brigade which had all the troops and students for the transportation school at Fort Eustis. SY: And the story you were telling of when you were staying in the World War II barracks and you had that -- RL: I was a battalion commander at Fort Bragg. SY: That was Fort Bragg? RL: That was Fort Bragg, North Carolina. I was commander of the seventh transportation battalion, had a long military history in that battalion. We had the only airborne car company still left in the United States army and that was left over from World War II. And the commander was a captain and he was on jump status because of the airborne car company, that was the connotation of it. And they were used -- that's why I say it's leftover from the Second World War. They also had an air delivery company, quartermaster company, where it was commanded by a major. And they did rigging for heavy drops, meaning vehicles, supplies, everything, and rigging the parachutes, and things like that. And because I had airborne troops in my battalion, my job also my slot was designated as an airborne slot. So at 44 I was still jumping out of airplanes.22 SY: Woah, so how'd your wife feel about that? RL: I had been married two years, three years at that time. And her father had been a 30 year veteran in the infantry, had been in the Second World War and that. And it's part of the job. SY: You were meeting a lot of people. So did you have any leadership challenges? How do you think you did as a leader? Were you the right mixture of approachable and intimidating? Did you think about that? RL: Well I guess if I had to self-evaluate, I was both because my commander expected -- he expected his commanders to be combat ready all the time and to be efficient and to get the job done regardless of the obstacles. There was a certain amount of pressure. Which therefore, you had to -- like they say, it rolls downhill. Now you had to say that at this time we had a volunteer army. Yeah, we were in a volunteer army. We had kids from all over the country. And we had to appeal to their sense of duty because that wasn't an eight to five job. I don't know where they ever got this idea. And the accommodations they lived in were not pleasant. They were the bunks and the World War II barracks, one latrine at the end. And the barracks were not in very good shape because that was the time of the Carter timeframe and they were cutting back on the forces. The money wasn't there. It wasn't being appropriated for repair parts or anything else so your vehicles were down a lot of time. You had to spend long hours to try to maintain and keep them going. And maintenance was one of the biggest problems with keeping the vehicles going, trying to make sure that the troops were taken care, and weren't put in such a state where they couldn't function. And we just did so many different things within the battalion because not only did I have truck company, I had Jeeps, I had an air delivery company, I had a Stevedore company that lifted the boxes and all that. So we had a challenge because we were multifunction, not just one focus. And we supported the 82nd airborne. And the 82nd airborne was -- they had three brigades. One brigade would be in the field and we had to support them. One brigade would be in garrison and we had to support them. And one brigade would be I'd say down, not deployable, they were resting after doing these other two. Well we had to support on a 24 hour, seven day basis, those two other brigades. We never had any down time. And that's why the vehicles had problems because we were running them all the time. And so it got to be a challenge, a real big challenge. But I was extremely proud of my battalion I encouraged my troops to be competitors. Fort Bragg there was very competitive with the 82nd airborne, the other troops there. They had boxing matches. We had combat football. We had air delivery competitions with the 82nd because they had their own air delivery unit. And I would say that my boxers, I reestablished and let some of my troops box, started taking championships. We beat the 82nd airborne in combat football, never been done before even though my commander who was a major at the time and was captain of our combat football team broke his collar bone. And it wasn't too long after that that they outlawed combat football because there were too many injuries. But the fact here is here was a support element, a transportation battalion, that went up against the combat troops, the 82nd airborne, and beat them in combat football, biggest thing. I was real proud of my troops. I had the championship women's basketball team at Fort Bragg. So esprit de corps is a very important thing and you got to give them a sense of accomplishment, not 23 only on the job but also in these other areas. So you try to encourage that. It's a difficult thing. It's a balancing act. It's like you have to keep all the balls up in the air at the same time and you have to learn how to do that. And it's not an easy thing. SY: Interesting. So I have two more questions for you and then Clark has some Norwich questions for you. But I also know time is an issue. My buddy Dick [Shultz?] told me a story. He discovered halfway through that I was Jewish. And then it was all over. He talked about -- he says you have some story about an airplane, it was in Vietnam, almost taking off or something, a Cold War story about if this airplane takes off, we're with war with Russia. I don't know, he remembered something. You don't know what he's talking about or you do? And you watched the plane hover and then it went down again. Maybe this wasn't Vietnam. Maybe this was Korea. I don't know. RL: I don't know. I was in South America one time and I was in special ops. I was Special Forces then. And one of the planes, it was a C123, which was an old prop driven. I mean you never see those today. And it was special ops. And the pilots, we were contour flying. Contour flying means you're right on the deck, bounding up and down because of the air drafts and everything else, and I remember this vividly. I was up with the pilots and these two guys -- you got to remember, air force guys I think are a little bit different than army guys. And they have to be for what they do. And these two pilots were up there just chatting away. I mean it was like they're having a cup of coffee down in the wherever and they were just chatting back and forth and this thing was bouncing up and down, up and down, and all across wise. And they were just having the grandest time. And you got to realize that it takes a special breed to do this. And it's the joy. I mean, I was a young guy and I just had the greatest time because -- and you have to have the competence though. And that's where you were talking about the training and everything else is so important. It's that these guys were able to do this, almost with their eyes closed. But the fact is, it was dangerous, what we were doing. And the helicopter I told you about being shot at and the pilot, as I say, I make light of it. But the fact was, we were taking ground fire and very well that chopper could've gone right there into the patties except for the pilot, again who I knew personally and had great confidence, and just pulled back on the pitch. And that thing, we didn't know if it was going to make it up or not because the rounds were hitting and if they'd hit the wrong part, we were done for. But this guy was just cool as hell, pardon the expression. He was. And that chopper, the vibration, it was just straining to get up over 1,000 feet where we get out of range of the ground fire. There were other things, but -- which one? There was a couple other things. But it was fun because you're young and you think you're invincible. And like you were talking about, how do you feel about -- some of these things you don't think about because you put it right out of your mind. And sometimes you put it out of your mind for a purpose. SY: Training plus testosterone. RL: And you just don't think about it after that too. Some of the things are so emotional that you don't. You put them out of your mind and you don't go back. That's just the way of life.24 SY: So one last question, people talk a lot about the military civilian divide. And you said that they're two different cultures. So you were in the military a long time and then you're retired. And so how do you interact with the civilian world? Do you feel different than the people around you who are civilians? Do you mostly spend time in military circles still? RL: No, when I left the service I never looked behind. And I went 180 degrees, gone the other way. SY: All right, what did you do? RL: I established my own business out of a hobby. I worked with antique clocks, 1700 and 1800. And I found that in order for me to establish a business, I had to go do these high end antique shows. And so I started doing high end antique shows, maybe was doing 15 or 16 a year -- I had a studio built off the back of my house. Business was by appointment only. And I had between 45 and 50 tall case clocks plus all these other clocks and things like that. And I'm down to about two shows a year now. And I used to be driving 40,000 miles a year to do the shows. But it gave me the latitude to be my own boss. It gave me the latitude to where if I didn't want to work seven days a week, 24 hours a day, I didn't have to because I had a young family. And I just didn't want to go back into the pressure cooker. The pressure cooker is what I call, even in my final days -- I had great jobs, one of them where I was the DCS for air transportation in the military airlift command, which is now melded into the transportation command at Scott Airforce Base. I was responsible for all the aerial reports and cargo and passengers all over the world. I had people all over the world. And so one time I left from Scott Airforce Base to the west coast to Hawaii, to Japan, to Korea, to Okinawa, to the Philippines, to Diego Garcia, to Turkey, to Germany, to Spain, to England, and home. So I only say that because I'm giving you the perspective that you can do anything in your military career. It depends on the field you're in. And one time I worked for the comptroller of the army as one of his executive assistants and was also congressional liaison for the appropriation committee with Congress. I worked with the Senate and the House of Representations when I was stationed in Washington. So what I'm trying to say is that a military career is not just one thing. I've had a varied career from combat arms to comptrollership to transportation to a multitude of other things, Special Forces and that. SY: But then you didn't want to go back. You wanted a job that wasn't that intense? RL: Well it was the fact is that that was me. Everybody's different and it was me. And I've been involved with Norwich since I was a class agent. And let me just tell you what I did because this is what I say to the Norwich grad is to keep active. I was a class agent for a while, then I was president of the alumni club in Washington DC. Then I went to the alumni board. Then I was president of the alumni association. Then I went to the board of trustees. Then I went to the Board of Fellows. Then I was chairman of the Board of Fellows. And then I had been a contributor with the Partridge Society and all of that. And I worked with the Colby Symposium for 20 years. And today they just appointed me as chair of the Friends of the Colby, the military author's symposium.25 SY: Cool, congratulations. Do you feel like Norwich -- it clearly prepared you for a military career. Do you think it also prepared you for your civilian career? RL: Sure. SY: How so? RL: I think that Norwich gave me an attitude. You know, it's an attitude and it's a level of confidence. Norwich University was the perfect match for me because it gave me the opportunity for leadership positions. I was the cadre every year I was here. And second it did, it gave me a great opportunity to meet combat vets because of the PMSNT and the cadre officers and that and to associate with some really find people. Thirdly, I met some great professors. Loring Hart was my English teacher. And I wrote an article for the Guidon one time and he wrote me a little note. He said, "Well done, you learned something." Little things like that that were feedback from the administration. Ernie Harmon who was the president at the time, I had met maybe four or five times. And when I was given an award or my diploma and the only other time I met him was when he chewed me out one time really bad when I was a corporal of the guard, and I mean really bad. SY: What did you do? RL: He drove up and parked his Cadillac and was going up to his office and I was the corporal of the guard. We were ready to take the flag down or something. And I didn't see him. But I didn't call the guard to attention or anything. And he just came over and chewed me out for not calling to attention and saluting him. And I said, "Yes sir." And the other time I met him was the time he called me into his office. And here's a good story for you. He called me in. He says, "I got a letter from your parents. They're concerned because you weren't accepted into advanced ROTC," because I failed the medical because of my eyes. And he says, "Do you want to be in advanced ROTC?" And I said, "Yes sir." He said, "Well this is what we're going to do." He told me exactly what he was going to do. He was going to get me my eye reexamined at Fort Ethan Allen and that the transportation would be provided for me and to report at such and such a time. And that was it, bang, gone. I went up to Fort Ethan Allen, went to the doctor there, doctor came from my home town. And he says, "What's the problem?" He says, "Well you got to be kidding me." He says, "During the Second World War with guys that were absolutely blind were in the infantry and they gave them two or three pairs of glasses in case they broke one and they sent them off into combat." So he reexamined me and passed me and that's why I had a 30 year career in the army. And I spent a lot of time, when they said I couldn't be in the combat arms, I spent a lot of time in the combat arms. So I tell these cadets don't give up and the fact is you can be anything that you want to be, you just work for it. SY: Now, Clark you had a question. It was about this canoeing trip right? CLARK HAYWOOD: (inaudible) [01:41:05] that you got to, as I would say, as a young guy, you got to hang out with Homer Dodge. So what was Homer Dodge like?26 RL: Wonderful guy, just a wonderful -- and he had to be in his 90s. All right, I was stationed in Washington DC at the time and I was working in the Pentagon. And I was elected president of the alumni club in Washington. And so my wife and I, we looked at what we could do to be interesting for the group, to bring him in. So I contact Dr. Dodge and asked him if I went down and picked him up -- now he was down in Pawtucket and Camorra, Cremini or something plantation. He had a beautiful home right on the Pawtuxet River, old, old home. And I said if we come down and pick you up and bring you up for the meeting and then take you home. Well that was like two hours down, two hours back. Anyway, he agreed to that. So my wife and I went down and he addressed the group. And by the time it was all finished, we got home at like one or two o'clock in the morning after driving him home. And he invited us to come back and spend the day with him. So we did. Now he was a canoeist. If you read his bio and that, he was a pretty serious canoeist. And at the age that he was, he was still canoeing. I couldn't believe it. And he had it all upstairs. He hadn't lost a bit. He had not lost a bit physically and everything else. And his stature, he wasn't a very tall guy, but he says, "Come on." He says, "I want to go in the marshlands along the river here and we'll go canoeing." So my wife and I got the canoe out and all three of us got in and he paddled us around and showed us all this marshland and things like that. And we just had a great time. And we had lunch together down there. And so that's how my connection with another president, he was president from 1944 to 1950, and then Ernie Harmon came in. And then Barksdale Hamlett I think came in after Ernie. And I knew him. And then it was Loring Hart. And then it was Russ Todd. Then it became Rich Schneider. I knew every one of these guys. I worked with them because of my association with the school. SY: So what about -- you've seen Norwich change a lot over the years. And how do you feel about the changes? Your alumni are sometimes very pro and very anti, it's interesting. RL: Well you have to realize that our society has changed. And when females came into the corps, well that was a big thing. Well at the same time I was working in Washington. And as I told you, women in the army, that's what I worked on. SY: So you did work on that? You worked on making that happen. RL: Yeah. I was briefing the generals. Remember I talked about those reports and I used to throw them on the floor to laugh because this was all the statistics they were providing because we were trying to integrate women into the army in certain MOSs by grade and MOS so there weren't any big bubbles, you see, because for promotion and everything else. And so this was a big thing that the Pentagon was concerned about. And they were getting a lot of court action, litigation. So we were an important part of the personnel system to make all this happen in a logical way. And that was where my commander because of the group I was leading gave me a special award and also recommended me for the Pace Award which was a very prestigious thing. I didn't get it, but the point is that he thought enough of me to recommend me for it. And that's what counts in life is that at least you get recommended for some of these things. But seeing that in the corps, so that didn't bother me at all because I had women in my battalion. And they were some of my best officers and best NCOs. Now I will say we did have some problems with women in the army and that was with -- and the only thing I want to mention here is lesbianism. 27 We did have issues of that. And that's changed too. You got to know what the period of the time was and the problems that we were confronted with which we hadn't confronted before. So they were new to us. So in order to be concerned about protecting troops and everything else, you had to reorient yourself. And that's the most important thing. The issue why I say that is to be able to be flexible enough to adapt to a new change and to be behind it and to understand it and support it. Now if you don't -- there were times where I don't agree with everything that happens at Norwich but at the same time I understand this is a big operation here. It's grown so much that the opportunities for these cadets -- they're busy all the time. All the opportunities are so much greater than what we had when I was going to school. And the other thing is that you've got civilians here too. And those are all different problems that you have to work through so there's no favoritism towards one body or towards the other. And that's why I say with a Colby symposium is that we have to incorporate the civilians as well as the military. So the subjects have to be such as that they relate to both sides. And therefore they interconnect and therefore what we're trying to do is enrich the student's experience. And what I say is think outside the box. You can't be just focused with blinders on. If you do that then you're missing a lot. And you're missing a lot in life too. SY: That might be a good note to end on. Clark, any other questions? CH: Yeah, do you have any anecdotes of any of the presidents that you worked with at all, just funny or anything serious that you learned, like insights from the past? RL: Well Ernie Harmon was -- he'd watch you from his window as you walked your tours and all that. He was gruff. He was fair. And I didn't have a lot of contact with him. The awards, the diploma, and when it was necessary. Other than that, you didn't want to have any experience with him from that standpoint because it might be negative. That's what you didn't want because Ernie, he was a tough guy, but he was fair. SY: Any interactions with his wife? RL: No, none. None whatsoever. SY: I'm reading her autobiography right now. RL: You're a cadet and you're talking in the 1950s. And we're isolated then because we didn't have '89 up here. And that's what I think -- that's what made our class just hang together, the comradery and the fraternities and everything else. And that's why I think even today with our class, we hang together. Maybe it's other classes. It just happens that maybe I'm looking at just my class, but then you went from there to Hamlett who was a gentleman. He only was here for a little while. I think he got sick or had cancer or something and left. So it was limited experience there. But then Loring Hart came in. Now he was my English professor. And I have to say that Loring Hart drew me back into Norwich, he did, because I was in the alumni club, but he says you got to come back to Norwich. And he used to stay with me when I was the president. He used to stay in our home, he and his wife Marylyn. And she was a delightful person. SY: I'm trying to track her down.28 RL: I think she died. She's passed away. Either that or she's in a -- SY: A nursing home? RL: Yeah, extended care. And I'll mention that in just a minute. But Loring Hart was an academician and at the time -- each one of these presidents that we're talking about was the man for his time. That's what they needed. And then of course they outlived their time and so then they bring somebody else. So Loring was the academician. I think he brought people together. He certainly was a favorite of mine. I used to stay with him when I came up for the meetings. That's because we were friends. And that friendship developed after Norwich, after I graduated. When Loring left and Russ Todd came on, Russ and I talked -- General Todd and I talked a lot because I was on the trustees at that time. And he was the right man for the time because of the military aspect, that's what they needed. But I will say this, that Rick Schneider when it was his time to do it -- and he's been here, what, 20 some years. He brought characteristics or elements of all the presidents previously you might say. And why I say that, maybe not in the intensity of an Ernie Harmon, but he came with his military background with the Coast Guard. Second was his finance background, which is a Godspeed because he understands that you can't do anything unless you have the money to do it. And that is a big plus in the atmosphere that we operate in today. He also is able to work with people. Therefore, he's been able to advance the university in certain areas. And he's given them the latitude to do that, where we've gotten more prestigious things that are necessary in a university. Now he's working on the campaign for the bicentennial which he knows that may be part of his legacy is the fact that he leaves the school financially better off than when he came in, which is a very important thing because if we're to perpetuate this for longevity, we need the financial endowment. A lot of big schools have these huge endowments over the years. But you got to realize that in the early years, even in the '60s and the '70s, there was a very small endowment. And there wasn't a lot of money being given. But after that with technology a lot of our graduates have done extremely well. And they've been very generous with giving back to the school. So that's an important element as we look at our history in the 20th century and now in the 21st century is how things have changed from that standpoint. The university's changed because of the physical plant, because of the civilian population. And yet we're still getting great admission in the cadet corps. So the core values of the university, the concept of citizen soldier, has got to be preserved because that's the main stay as far as I'm concerned of the university. And when I came to this school, I had no intention of going into the military as a career. I took business and I expected to go into the business world. SY: And so why do you think you did? RL: As I progressed, everybody had to go in and had a military obligation regardless. I don't know how it developed. It just developed. I was always one of these people who was willing to take on responsibility and I was a cadre member the whole time. I did well at summer camp. And I was involved with all of these organizations here. SY: You were good at it.29 RL: Well I was interested in it. I was interested, like the honor committee and all these committees. But the point being is that I did well so I had the opportunity to -- I was a distinguished military graduate. I had the opportunity to accept an army commission. And I said, "Why not? Twenty years, get my masters, and go out in the business." Well I got to that point where I had my master's and 20 years and I got promoted early to colonel. And I had young kids and everything. I loved the military. So I just stayed in for 30. But how did I get into, it was Norwich. I didn't have any intention of coming into the military like a lot of these young men and women come into the school today. I had no idea that I would spend 30 years in the army. But I had a great career. I had great opportunities, great assignments, and so you look back on your life and you say, "Gee, I've been lucky." But I have to say that I was prepared academically before I came to Norwich, how to study, because the grades are important. And Norwich developed me after that. I don't know what more I can say. SY: I'm worried about you catching your plane. RL: No, no, don't worry about that. I'll catch that plane. I know how to do it. As long as they don't ticket me for speeding. SY: I think we're good. Thank you for coming back today. RL: Well you can edit anything out of that you want. END OF AUDIO FILE

Part seven of an interview with educators in the Leominster, Massachusetts area. Topics include: How education and the family system has changed from generation to generation. How grocery shopping has changed. The types of food people ate and family dinners. Different Italian dialects. Playing games with neighborhood children. The difference today between the parent, child, and teacher relationship. ; 1 SPEAKER: Um, but from the time that the war ended, um, I was in school. My parents demanded that I go to school. Uh, at the school, I, I did what everybody else did. Uh, we had a dozen sheep or so and, uh, one of my older cousins, uh, who was out of school, you know, she's completed her fifth grade and was apprenticed to a tailor in, in town. Matter of fact, she made my first pair of pants. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I still remember that. [Laughter] Um, he would, he would take the sheep out to the fields during the morning, and, uh, I would release them in the afternoon after school. Now, the school day was like maybe 9 o'clock to about 12 o'clock, 12:30. Um, you know, you arrived, you know, when you arrived. Oftentimes you had a, uh, a slice of bread with you, you know, the half of breakfast, and you were not allowed in the classroom if you're going to be eating anything, so you have to… SPEAKER: No free lunch? SPEAKER: … you'd have to wait out in the hallway. SPEAKER: No free lunch? [Laughter] SPEAKER: No free lunch, right… SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: … until you had your piece of bread or whatever you brought with you then you went in. The school got out roughly 12 o'clock, 12:30 because there were no lunches served, and, uh, every-, everybody went home. So at that time, I would go to relieve my older cousin and, you know, then [unintelligible - 00:01:19] I'd bring the sheep home. Um, but coming to this country, it's when -- my father went to work as I said in a coalmine, came to Leominster, went to work in a plastic shop like so many others. My mother as well. Uh, we were fortunate that my grandmother, my mother's, uh, mother, lived with us for a while. So she was able to watch over the children and, you know, helped with the 2 household chores and so on. My mother, you know, went to work. But I can never remember my parents ever entertaining the thought that, you know, when I became 16 or 15 or whatever that I should quit school and go to work. They just kept telling me that education was the future and encouraged me and paid for my college education and supported me, including having a car to drive. [Laughter] SPEAKER: Whoa! You got that? SPEAKER: And money for Saturday night dates. [Laughter] SPEAKER: That was the common… that was the common statement of most Italian parents, and I'm sure the other parents, too. There was no discussion whether you were going to continue school. If you look down the street at 7 o'clock in the morning, you saw husbands and wives walking to the factory, okay, and coming home at 5 o'clock. Okay, and they would say to you, the common term was, "You're going to have it better than I have." There was no discussion about going to college. It's where you're going to go, where can we afford you to go. Okay? There was no discussion of, "I'm not going." You will. Okay? Or you took a trade. Let's not forget that. Lots of kids took trades, which was, as far as I'm concerned, I'm a big supporter. Okay, so electricians, plumbers, and many, many Italian plumbers and electricians [unintelligible - 00:03:09] in the city of Leominster and other cities. But to answer your question, there was no discussion. You were going to do exactly… SPEAKER: Never any questions. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: And I know my mother's family, they were all high school graduates except her oldest brother. And my grandfather has had a stroke, and my mother was the youngest of seven children, and because of that had to be the bread earner and delivered milk at 4 o'clock in the morning in the city of Boston and things like that 3 [unintelligible - 00:03:47] kept the family going. But all the girls went to high school. My aunt went to [unintelligible - 00:03:53] State. In those days, for Italian women to have a college education, I mean, I'm talking about late '20s and early '30s, it was one of the few things. My mother had the option to do that and elected to get married instead. So she didn't follow through with that. But as far as my dad's family, he was the second oldest. He was the oldest of nine in this country, but he had an older brother in Italy that didn't come until he was maybe 11 or 12 years old. So when my dad was in the eighth grade, two weeks in the eighth grade, my grandfather found the opportunity at that time to go to work at DuPont. So that was the end of his education. And he went to work at DuPont to help support the family, and that's part of the reason that he had later on had to study for the civil service type exams. All of that, but there was never any question. [Laughter] I don't think it ever came up that you weren't going to go to school. I mean it was just a given. It was a given. SPEAKER: Thinking of progression of the parents who came from Italy, the next generation, which would be our parents, us, and now our children, every generation had it so much better than the one before that, and each one contributed to the latter going [unintelligible - 00:05:41]. SPEAKER: The American dream? SPEAKER: Yeah. My kids have it so much better than I do, I think, in many ways. But in many ways they don't. We didn't have the hecticness of the world today. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: We had wars, but we didn't have the [unintelligible - 00:05:50] television, drugs, rapes, bombings, you know. We didn't have that. We didn't have that. SPEAKER: No. 4 SPEAKER: Divorce. Divorce. If you hear about a divorce in the city of Leominster in 1940, it was gossip all over the room. That was a big thing. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:06:07]. SPEAKER: Yeah. You know, today it's common that people live together. Imagine if someone lived together not married… SPEAKER: I was the first one in my family and all of my aunts, uncles, cousins, the first one to be divorced. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And I don't think that that… it was a trial. I mean, I can't even describe the guilt that goes with that. But you also know what you can live with and what you can't live with, you know. But I thought it was the end of the world, but my parents were so accepting of that. SPEAKER: They were a little more [modern]. SPEAKER: I suppose and trusted enough to know that it wasn't a frivolous thing. I mean, it wasn't something that, you know, people are married for two or three months like [unintelligible - 00:07:02] now and then they divorce. This is the thing, you know. And that was a very difficult thing to do. You felt also like a failure because no one else before you… you know, all your family that preceded you, no one… SPEAKER: The family system worked. I guess that's my point. The family system worked. Each generation, as Stella said, you know, it gets a little better. They have a little more. My father had his first car at 15 years old. We would walk up town, go to [unintelligible - 00:07:39], Missouri and [unintelligible - 00:07:41], which was downtown. They didn't have big supermarkets. And we would carry the bundles once a week and we would shop daily for our meats. We would go to [unintelligible - 00:07:52], our local [unintelligible - 00:07:52] right down the street, and you charged. 5 Let's try to do that today. We went to the Italian market. We'd say, "Jeff, charge it. My mother will pay you at the end of the week," and they pay. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:08:09] on the hamburger and salami. SPEAKER: They have Italian colonial store prior to [unintelligible - 00:08:14], one on Lincoln Terrace and one on Lancaster Street. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: The Coop. Yup. SPEAKER: Italian Coop. SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: Yup. \SPEAKER: And you'd go to buy groceries and they would write down the cost right on the bag and add it up. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: They do. [Unintelligible - 00:08:30] is probably charged. SPEAKER: And they were quick, too. I'll tell you something about a charge because I worked at [unintelligible - 00:08:41] but Luigi's Market. SPEAKER: Luigi's. SPEAKER: It was the old burger chain. And you're right. We used to have sludge that we kept in a little metal container so that, you know, Mike would be getting out a [unintelligible - 00:08:49] and come in and pick up some milk or bread and call me Mashy. Right Mike, Mashy? SPEAKER: Mashy. SPEAKER: Mashy. SPEAKER: Mashy. SPEAKER: Put on my slip. "Okay, Mike." I'd write it down. And then at the end of the week or whenever payday was, you know, they would all come in and say, "Okay, what do I owe?" And they will pay. 6 Well, I remember one time, Mike and Lucy were both there, and they said, you know, "Mashy, how much do we owe?" So I pulled out the slip and I said, "You owe," at the time, I'll say, "seven dollars and fifty cents." "Really? What did I buy? I don't remember getting that." SPEAKER: [Laughter] JEAN: "Hey, Mike, don't you remember you bought this, you bought…" "Uh, I don't remember that." But as it was, he had a brother. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Okay. And his brother had come in and bought that and I put it on his tab. [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I still remember that, and he couldn't figure out, "How come I owe you all that money?" [Laughter] We straightened that out. [Laughter] SPEAKER: You know, maybe we should [unintelligible - 00:09:48] the city and there were many that were set up like the Italian [unintelligible - 00:09:55] over there. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:09:58] market was on what? SPEAKER: On Mechanic Street? SPEAKER: Mechanic Street? SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: It was to the church there. SPEAKER: I think there's another one on Crescent Street, but I can't think of the name of that one. SPEAKER: Geronimo. SPEAKER: Right near South Cotton, is that Cotton Street? SPEAKER: The Geronimo. SPEAKER: The Geronimos were on the… SPEAKER: Okay. 7 SPEAKER: The flea market, The Geronimos. SPEAKER: It's not a flea market. It was [unintelligible - 00:10:18] the Geronimo. SPEAKER: Okay. SPEAKER: On Salisbury Street. SPEAKER: The Geronimos on Salisbury [unintelligible - 00:10:23] going on what? Mechanic, the beginning of Mechanic? SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Near the paint store. SPEAKER: Not only did the grocery stores give you a charge, they delivered your food. SPEAKER: They delivered. SPEAKER: All you do is call up and say, "I want this, that," and they delivered. SPEAKER: My mother had a bleach man, a chicken guy, and I had to always [makes beheading noise], right? A bakery guy and [unintelligible - 00:10:47] clothing guy. Remember the guy from Fitchburg? You have two bucks a week or a buck a week. And Savetelli's downtown. You go buy a vacuum cleaner and you give him a buck a month. SPEAKER: Would they make house calls, or where do those…? SPEAKER: They make house calls, except… oh, Savetelli's. Do they come around? SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: But all the other ones did though. SPEAKER: But all the other ones did. Milk, bread, bleach, chickens, bakery. SPEAKER 3: The rice man. SPEAKER 2: Mr. Freda, Joe Freda, and [unintelligible - 00:11:11]. SPEAKER: I never heard of a bleach man. SPEAKER: Oh, there were, yeah. You had to use bleach. 8 SPEAKER: The cabinets were clean. Laughter] SPEAKER: Ice man. [Laughter] SPEAKER: I mean, I saw all these others, but never the bleach man. So, what? Would they come with a…? SPEAKER: Well, it was mostly because of the product that would, you know… it came in glass containers. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: I could remember many times in Luigi's you know, my banging up against the gallon of bleach that was on the floor and breaking it, and then, oh, I don't like the smell. Then you had to clean it up. So I couldn't understand it, but you know, the charging obviously was a way of life at the time and very helpful, you know, very helpful. But in Pennsylvania, we talk about [unintelligible - 00:12:01], the coal mining town. When I first visited it again, I brought my wife with me. As we approached the town, it was a hilly area, and you could see the rows of houses. They're all duplexes. Okay? And down at the bottom of the hill was where the coal mines were. Okay? And the houses were all up on little narrow roads, a row of houses. They were all duplexes and about 50 feet behind them, a row of outhouses. Okay? They all had them. Eventually they were converted to little sheds for the garden. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Because, you know, indoor plumbing came. But remember the song "Sixteen Tons"? SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: "I owe my soul to the company store." SPEAKER: The company store. SPEAKER: Because the company owned the store and you charged everything, and they let you charge but you're also indebted to them. Okay? 9 So when times were hard and you went on strike, they supported you. They allowed you to charge, you know, for your groceries. And the houses were all company houses you rented. And so they didn't throw you out. Okay? But by the time, you know, the three-month strike or six-month strike, you know, ended, you're in serious debt. So you owed your soul, and that's exactly what it meant. Okay? You couldn't leave. You were pretty much chained, you know, to that company. And it's very visual as you approach the town and you see the homes. Now, they're all, you know, individually owned. Some people bought both sides. Most people bought one side. And what's funny about it is they modernized. Okay? And you drive into the town now and you go up the street, and you'll see one side of the duplex has got cement porch, wrought-iron railings. The other side still has the old, you know, wooden porch. Okay? One side decided to put aluminum siding on their house. The other side still has the asphalt shingle or the roofs of different colors. [Laughter] It's hilarious, you know, looking at it. But you know, I mean, even there, the idea of, you know, being able to support yourself during a time that was difficult was there, whether it was family or the company. But there was also a price to pay for that. You know, there's no such thing as a free lunch. And the services of delivering. I mean, that was one of my pleasures when I went to Luigi's. Take an order right on the telephone, just tell me everything you want, and then I put it in a basket and ring it up and put it in a box and bring it to your house. SPEAKER: And [unintelligible - 00:14:40] whoopee pie. SPEAKER: And it was great. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And it was great. 10 SPEAKER: And then a big treat was Mr. Kelly had a truck, and on Fridays, he came with fresh fish in his truck and went to neighborhood to neighborhood. And he had fresh vegetables, too. SPEAKER: And the ice man? SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. I felt one of the times that you… if you wanted 20 pounds of ice, you would put a [unintelligible - 00:15:07] all numbers around it, and the number at the top would tell the ice man how many pounds of ice you wanted. [Unintelligible - 00:15:11] soup on Monday. We always had soup on Monday. That must've been an Italian custom. Right? And then there was going to the neighborhood grocery store at [unintelligible - 00:15:20], and it was like every Monday to go get a soup bone… SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: … probably 15 cents. SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Oh yeah. Right. SPEAKER: That was… SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:15:31]. SPEAKER: Usually leftovers. That's how Menestra came into being. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:15:40]. SPEAKER: Most people didn't have a car. As I said, my first car came when I was 15 years old, when my father got his first car. SPEAKER: Mine's a piece of junk. SPEAKER: Mine, too. SPEAKER: Couldn't heat the oil. SPEAKER: Mine, too. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I still have the nice car that she's talking. SPEAKER: Yeah. [Laughter] 11 SPEAKER: My father had a car even before he got married. He was one of the first [unintelligible - 00:16:01]. SPEAKER: He was rich. SPEAKER: And his big thing was to go to Boston and buy an Italian newspaper, and he read that newspaper over and over and over again until he went back a month later to buy another newspaper. SPEAKER: I know that. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Over and over, the same thing. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: I can remember taking my father's car, your mother, my mother, and a bunch of old Italian ladies, that'll be six or five or six of us, and driving them around town in a Sunday night, and I didn't have a license. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And my mother thought I was wonderful. And then I gave her lessons. I gave my mother lessons, and she would get me so upset because she did so poorly. I'd get out of the car and walk home. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:16:45]. SPEAKER: I remember my family giving my mother lessons and it was in a little Chevy, like a two-seater. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Anyway, we were on [Victory] Market where Lancaster Street is now. SPEAKER: The [unintelligible - 00:17:00]. SPEAKER: Yes. SPEAKER: The [unintelligible - 00:17:02]. SPEAKER: Yes, that's right. SPEAKER: And we lived in a three-decker across the street from Joe on Graham Street [unintelligible - 00:17:08] even a block. 12 SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Lots of times, I'd be in the back. By the time we got to the… SPEAKER: Sandbank. SPEAKER: … sandbank, [people had already left]. [Laughter] That was the end of the lesson. [Laughter] SPEAKER: That was the end of the lesson. Right? SPEAKER: [Laughter]. [Unintelligible - 00:17:29] my mother eventually did drive home. My dad [unintelligible - 00:17:30], he had no choice. But she had to take lessons from you know… SPEAKER: A professor? SPEAKER: Yeah, right. [Laughter] But I remember telling her [unintelligible - 00:17:43] end of the street [laughter] it was already the end, because of the way, you know, she was learning, so… SPEAKER: I was in a similar situation as Joe was describing. My father never got his license. My mother didn't get a license until she was about 50 years old. So I was the only one with a license and had to drive everybody everywhere. On Sunday, when we visited relatives or wherever, it will be [unintelligible - 00:17:43] you know, driving wherever, you know, we needed to go. Going to work, that was… it didn't matter. Whether it was Saturday night I had a date, you know, the one night a week, whatever it was, my father worked 11 to 7, and at 10:30, I had to be home to pick him up and bring him to work. And Vinnie's father used to work in the same place, and I'd pick him up. So there were three or four that I would pick up and drop them off, and then I'd go and continue. Oftentimes my date would be kind of with me. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Or if we were at the [unintelligible - 00:18:37], I'd say, "Well, I'll be back in 45 minutes." SPEAKER: There were times when we'd eat canned foods for the longest time. I can remember my mother canning 200 quarts of tomatoes every 13 year, and all kinds of fruits and vegetables. And they always wanted everything fresh. And my father liked to go to the beach, so [unintelligible - 00:19:02] pack it up. My mother would spend the whole week cooking, getting ready to go. However, the spaghetti had to be cooked fresh, and he had a Bunsen burner. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:19:19] and they didn't have that, however. So he was going to make something so that he could change up, because he didn't like the sand in his bathing suit. So he got pipes and made a rectangle and then got canvas and covered it. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: So he went in, and the cops came by and it's not allowed. You have to keep it up three feet from the ground. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Everything was done by community. Every Sunday morning in the summertime, the bus would go up to the markets [unintelligible - 00:19:52] and up on Lincoln Terrace. And the people would come and pay a couple of bucks and get in the bus and go to the beach. SPEAKER: The beach? SPEAKER: The one down… SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:20:04]. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: The beach, right. SPEAKER: Yup. Yup. SPEAKER: Today, you… [unintelligible - 00:20:08] pick and choose. But you got on the bus and you went to the beach. What a big day that was. SPEAKER: It was a time when family activities… because you didn't have the communication, because you didn't have the opportunities that you have now. Now, every kid has got a job. Any kid who wants a job 14 has a job. That gives them money. That gives them independence. Okay? They have automobiles. I mean, now they go to proms, they're in limos, they're in tuxes and whatnot. And all that's been good in a sense. You know, when Joe talks about every generation has made life easier for the next generation, well that's true in some sense, economically. Okay? But in another sense, there's always a loss. There's always a price to pay for that. SPEAKER: That's true. SPEAKER: And a lot of the things that we're talking about—families being together, whether it was going to the beach—you did it out of necessity at the time because you didn't have other opportunities. Okay? So you went as a family. You did the cooking because, you know, they didn't have their faith in canned goods or whatever. But there were activities that brought the family and kept them, you know, kept the ties together. And today with transportation being what it is, communication, as many said, anything that goes on in the world we know about at the same hour, and we'll see a picture of it, okay? Whereas you know, Lucy's father, you know, would have to wait a month to go into Boston to get a newspaper, you know, to find out. So it's been good in many ways, but in other ways, you know, there's been a price. And I think if we all think back to our growing up, I think we can recognize, you know, some of that price to be paid for that. SPEAKER: You know, life was so simple then. Life was so simple then. SPEAKER: But did they think that? Did we think that? SPEAKER: We thought that as kids. We thought that as kids. But you think of what your parents would've been going through. You know, in Italy, I was the happiest in my life growing up in Italy. We were poor. I don't think I ever had more than one pair of shoes that my father had made for me. It was a pair of boots because I could wear those in the wintertime. You weren't going to get, you know, 15 shoes that you could wear in one season. It had to be… the rest of the country was barefoot or your mother made moccasins or, you know, whatever. And oftentimes, you know, meals was skimpy. At a wedding, my uncle's wedding, we were told -- my younger cousin, no, a cousin that was the same age as me, the other cousin was 5 years old -- "You, you can have one meatball. You two, you're going to share a meatball." So all they got was a half. Those were the instructions at this wedding. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I remember that. Okay? You know… SPEAKER: What about meetings when we were deciding on the menu for the retired [unintelligible - 00:23:16] that we always have. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: You know, we always select the same things, the fish and whatever [unintelligible - 00:23:25] brought me back to the days where we had the same meals seven nights in a row. [Laughter] SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: I never forgot that. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: I had six children. This was during the Depression, and on Mondays, they had soup bones, too. But each child had his own bone, so after they ate their pasta… SPEAKER: Oh, really? SPEAKER: Yeah, after they ate their pasta, they sucked on their bone to eat all that meat. And we thought nothing of it because that's how they grew up. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: And then one of the boys brought his girlfriend home, and she sat there and watched everybody suck on bones. SPEAKER: [Laughter] 16 SPEAKER: Yeah. I mean, pork was common because, you know, people raised pigs. But beef, I don't remember ever having beef in Italy. I remember having… SPEAKER: I know. [Have I?] SPEAKER: Saturday nights in my house. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Smells great. SPEAKER: I know. And [good food]. SPEAKER: And we're making… I hate it. Smells great. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:24:18] anymore. What was it, like pinkish? SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Remember polenta? When was the last time you had polenta? Okay? SPEAKER: I don't have that. SPEAKER: Well… SPEAKER: I like that. SPEAKER: Oh, I love it, too. But you know what's funny? You know, what's funny? Vinnie will remember this. That in Italy, the only time we had cornbread or polenta was when we ran out of wheat. Okay? Because corn was something that you just didn't eat. SPEAKER: That's… yeah. SPEAKER: Okay. It was more for the animals. SPEAKER: When your stock ran down, okay, all the stock you had in your storeroom, your bags of beans and potatoes, you know, whatever, that you raised because everybody raised their own food and you started seeing polenta, then you know that you were down and needed stock. Okay? And the only way that we could put any kind of flavoring on that was trapping little birds. Okay? And I used to take little mousetraps, and I'd set them outside in the winter, outside in the garden in the snow, buried in the snow with a 17 little piece of stale bread or something just showing, and little birds will get caught in there. Okay? And then you plucked them. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I mean, can you imagine how much meat there was in little birds? SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: But that's it. That's the only meat you had that might've gone in the sauce. So when you had, you know, polenta, which was the cheapest meal you could get—it's nothing but cornmeal and water spread on a big board—but you enjoyed it. You enjoyed it because you just make a game out of it. You just try to make designs, maps, or whatever. I'll meet you over here and you'll eat your way there. [Laughter] That was fun. SPEAKER: Women would get together, and I'd forgotten whose house it was with [unintelligible - 00:26:03] the area, and the polenta would be out on the board and they'd have one section that has like sausage. There were different kinds of things, you know. [Laughter] SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: I was so [frightened], but I don't know… there were no men and no boys there. SPEAKER: [They didn't like it]. SPEAKER: It was like a ladies' night out. SPEAKER: Do you know what? Sunday [unintelligible - 00:26:26] wintertime, my mother would say to us, "What are we going to have today? Ravioli?" All the things you die for at a restaurant, that you pay big time in a restaurant, we took for granted. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: And I would roll, you know, heaps on the fork or crimp the… SPEAKER: Ravioli. SPEAKER: … and we had food for two or three days. And I was in a [unintelligible - 00:26:47] because my father was on the football team. [Unintelligible - 00:26:49] next door. [Unintelligible -18 00:26:52] and I own the football field. And I could tell who I didn't want there [unintelligible - 00:26:56]. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: In the baseball field, the baseball would go to the [unintelligible - 00:27:01] and my father would come home. SPEAKER: My mother baked bread every week. You should make enough for the whole week, but the biggest treat for us kids was to eat American bread. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: White, sliced bread. That was a big treat. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: We used to call it the… I can only remember maybe twice by nine years in Italy ever having white bread. We used to call it pane degli angeli, the angel's breath. Okay? Because it was white. And we thought that was terrific. Now, years later, I'm over here and I want to buy a whole wheat bread and I pay twice as much. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:27:40]. SPEAKER: When I was 4, I had this all the time. [Laughter] Now that I got a few bucks… SPEAKER: I miss junior high school… and then ham and pickle sandwiches with mayonnaise. You didn't have the mayonnaise in those Italian homes. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: Never. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: And I liked it. My mother said [unintelligible - 00:27:57] "I like it." Wow! SPEAKER: [Laughter] 19 SPEAKER: And when they made us a lunch, they made us submarine sandwiches. It was embarrassing to go to class with submarine sandwiches and everyone had their white bread. SPEAKER: Yeah. A brown piece of bread, right? SPEAKER: Today, we all like the submarine sandwiches. SPEAKER: Yeah, but then we used to roll up the paper bag and take it home. We were told, "You have to bring that home. You don't want to waste that. Use it again." And by the end of the week, it was so oily [laughter]. SPEAKER: Matthew Mcgloster and Joe Mcgloster would go to school every single day with eggs and peppers in it, and the bag used to leak. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Their sandwiches were absolutely wonderful, but they used to leak every single day of the year [unintelligible - 00:28:39]. SPEAKER: Those were the days when the most you had to wrap that sandwich in was wax paper, and that didn't hold anything, so… SPEAKER: Right. Right. SPEAKER: And I used to go up to work at the apple farm, and I'd have an Italian round bread, cut, okay, [unintelligible - 00:28:54] meatballs, cut in half, the whole thing. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Most of the guys in those days were just so [unintelligible - 00:29:01]. You ate well. SPEAKER: You were lacking in some of the basic stuff. Like I said before, I can remember being you know, poor as you could be, I guess, eating nothing but maybe, you know, a bowl of milk and some stale bread that you threw in in the morning. And you had the milk because you had sheep or you had goats. And not eating again until suppertime you know, when… SPEAKER: But you know, you never knew you were poor. SPEAKER: No, that's the thing. You see…20 SPEAKER: You only know you were poor… SPEAKER: What I'm saying is… SPEAKER: … if you feel poor. SPEAKER: I can remember being cold. I can remember you know, not having enough to eat. I could remember, you know, not having money, money in the household, and I'm wondering how the parent… you said, you know, but how did they feel? You know, we thought we had it good. There were good times. But how did the parents feel? Because they had the responsibility. We didn't. Okay? But throughout all of that, and I think all of us will say the same thing, we might've been lacking in a lot of material things, but I don't think any one of us in our family has ever doubted that we were not loved. Okay? And that's the key ingredient. Okay? It didn't matter what you had or didn't have. I had a -- one of my friends in Italy, after the war, communism was big, okay, and then one show we'll remember, all the speeches from the piazza off the balcony of the municipal building are political speeches that you, you know, listen to. The town was small. I mean, they would harangue and you could hear them across town. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And of course, the kids all stayed out late. That was just part of life. You stayed out late. But one of the friends that I had, his father was communist. And during the day, when you're outside playing, oftentimes you know, you get hungry, okay, want a snack. But we didn't have fruit. You know, we didn't have refrigerators, so you didn't have fruit. The best that you could have was maybe to go in and get a slice of bread. And my mother used to bake, you know, the [unintelligible - 00:31:07] loaves. Once a week, it was a communal bakery. Ovens, okay, we just have to… SPEAKER: There were a lot of them. 21 SPEAKER: During the holidays, like Easter, you'd have to sign up and take turns. Your family's time to bake was maybe two in the morning. And of course, it will be a family affair. You don't leave your kids at home. You brought them with you. And everybody had fun. But the kids would say, you know, "We're hungry." So I'd go in and I'd get some bread slices. I'd get a slice of whatever we had. Okay? I could still remember the day that—and his name was Alfietto—he said, "Well, come on over my house." So we went to his house, and he wanted some bread. He couldn't have it. And I looked at the bread box, and it had a lock on it. SPEAKER: Oh, my goodness. SPEAKER: And only the father had the key. So, as poor as I was, I recognized that he was poorer. Okay? But I also recognized, I don't know how, but I also recognized the difference in relationship between the parent and the child. Okay? For the parent to do that, have so much control, okay, that they would put a lock on the bread box, told me something, and I knew I had something that he didn't have, and it was more than just being able to get bread. Okay? Somehow I recognized that at the time. SPEAKER: Right. Trust? SPEAKER: Did your mother have bread pudding? SPEAKER: Pardon me? SPEAKER: My mother would save all the old bread, and once in a while, I'd get home and there'd be a big bread pudding. That was wow. Cut you… cut off a slab. SPEAKER: And you grated your own bread crumbs, you know. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:32:48]. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: And cheese. And how many times have you skinned your knuckles grating cheese? [Laughter] 22 SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And put her on the oven and then sprinkle it with sugar. SPEAKER: Yes. Yes. SPEAKER: And I had a go. SPEAKER: Sugar or… SPEAKER: I had a go. SPEAKER: … olive oil or oregano. SPEAKER: Remember that? [Unintelligible - 00:33:02] I had a go. SPEAKER: Remember that, Vin? Olive oil and oregano and just a slice of bread. SPEAKER: Oh, beautiful. SPEAKER: That was, that was it. SPEAKER: I come home one day… SPEAKER: I can have a couple of episodes about bread. SPEAKER: Go ahead. SPEAKER: Go ahead. Your kids… SPEAKER: Plus, I just wanted to insert my goat story. [Laughter] I come home one day, and the goat [laughter]… he [unintelligible - 00:33:21] tree with a string. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: My father was in the house. He called my uncle down on Elm Hill Avenue. We came with the wheelbarrow, and they had a feast. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Watch it. SPEAKER: Oh, I'm sorry. SPEAKER: I had pigeons, goats, rabbits, and I found that wasn't safe. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Vinnie, what were you about to say? SPEAKER: That's okay. Talking about bread, one of the first recollections I have about bread is something striking because I don't think I could've been more than five, six years old. And I remember that I 23 used to go with my grandfather to the field. He would go there with the [unintelligible - 00:34:03] vines and do some of the work. And he would be my babysitter, because my mother would be somewhere else working. And as he worked, he would tell me stories. He had spent his youth and a lot of time building roads in South America, Argentina and Uruguay, and he would tell me, "When you grow up, you have to learn things about the world [unintelligible - 00:34:41] you should go to America." By America, I think he meant South America. "And when you're there, you'll find that things are aplenty there. Tomorrow, you won't eat today's bread." And I said, "How come? They only bake a little bread so that it's all gone by the time you want to have a second meal?" And I didn't quite understand. Then I asked him, "How come they only bake a little bread and tomorrow you don't have yesterday's bread leftover?" He said, "Oh no, there's fresh bread every day." And to me, the idea of fresh bread every day was completely inconceivable. I mean, how could that be? He says, "And there's meat. There's lots of meat. You can have meat anytime you want." And as a child, we saw meat as sausages, as bacon, the pigs that we slaughtered once a year. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: When that was gone, it was gone. SPEAKER: Gone. SPEAKER: That's it. No more meat. But there, you had meat every day and fresh bread. "You didn't eat yesterday's bread. What did you do with it?" "Well, feed it to the animals, do whatever you want, but you don't eat it." Later on, when I was going to elementary school, we used to play ball in the street, soccer, or kick the ball. And for lunch, once in a while, we'll have a slice of bread with olive oil on it, and sometimes it would be toasted so you could have a little garlic on it. 24 SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: I would go outside and watch my friends play ball and sometimes join them. Every so often, the ball would land on my bread [laughter] and it would fall. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And well, okay, I'd say, "I'll go inside and get another piece." And one of my friends would pick it up, clean it up, and eat it. And I didn't realize until I thought about it much later that's probably what they intended to do. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: They had no bread available. They were hungry. They were so proud that they wouldn't ask me for a slice of bread, and that was the only way to get some food in their belly. SPEAKER: Plus, we call that garlic bread today. SPEAKER: But it was toasted in the fireplace, not in the toaster, in the fireplace, and you took a clove of garlic and cut it, and you rub that on. That's how you got the garlic on. You didn't have garlic salt or whatever. But in a child's mind, when Vinnie talks about he could not conceive of bread not being available, okay, to us it's inconceivable that he couldn't conceive of it. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Okay? But a similar incident for me was coming into New York Harbor. Okay? This was February 1, 1949, and of course everybody was up on deck with the [unintelligible - 00:37:45]. It's cold and everything, but I don't remember that. And looking out into the harbor, into the city skyline and seeing this big bridge which might have been the Verrazano Bridge, I don't know, but I'd see all these things going back and forth. Now, in my experience, for 10 minutes, I debated as to whether they were dogs or cars. SPEAKER: [Laughter] 25 SPEAKER: I said, "Wow!" Now, this was from a distance obviously. You can't make out what they are except you see objects, you know, going across the bridge. And I kept debating. "Those are dogs," I said. "No, they can't be dogs." And then I would say, "They're cars. No, there can't be that many cars in the world." I mean, in our town, we had a doctor who had a motorcycle, there was another doctor who had a car, and there was somebody who had a truck. Everybody else walked. Or, if you were fortunate, you had a bicycle. Nine years old, I could not convince myself if those were cars because there could not possibly be that many cars in the world. That's how limited, okay, our thinking was growing up in that little place. Now, you multiply that millions of times across the earth, whether it's in Vietnam or it's in Kenya or it's in Alaska, okay, how narrow the world is to an individual that doesn't have that communication. Okay? And that gets us back, you know, to education, because that's what it was. It was a lack of education, whether it was not having a radio available through which you receive communication, your parents did not have those experiences that they could share with you because they grew up in the same kind of environment. When you talk about the autostrada, you said they have beautiful roads in Italy. Yes, from the 1950s on when they started building the autostradas. As we would ride in the autostradas on the bus and then in our car that we rented, and you look up because it's very mountainous, and you look up and you see all these villages up in the mountains and you see these little lines, okay, those were the roads. No wonder that people from one town never knew people from another town. How could you get there except by walking? And even then, we didn't dare to because we were told by our parents that the people on the next town were no good. [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Laughter] 26 SPEAKER: And had different dialects anyway. SPEAKER: The different dialect is unbelievable. You know, he talked about some of the towns. It was Popoli. It couldn't have been more than three kilometers away. Okay? On Saturdays, my parents would take whatever, the few vegetables or whatnot they had, and go and set up in the open air market, and I would go with them. And I'd be sitting there next to the blanket, [unintelligible - 00:40:38] people would come, and I remember a lady come in and asked me whatever the price of tomatoes or whatever it was. I didn't have the vaguest idea what she was saying. I didn't have the vaguest idea. I had to ask my mother. Okay, now being grown up, they had heard the dialects often enough, okay, that they could understand each other. But as a youngster, never having been out of the town and being exposed to that, I didn't understand. I'm not talking about an accent. I'm talking about something completely different. Okay? The words [tremendously shocked]… I'll give you an example. The word andiamo, which means, you know, we're going, you know, andiamo a scuola -- iam, you see I-A-M. The A-N-D is gone. The O in the end is gone. [Unintelligible - 00:41:31] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:41:32]. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Not andiamo, it's iam. Now, how do you get to…? SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:41:37]. SPEAKER: And at different times, they all said the words differently, the same basic word but differently. I mean, Latin, you talked about Latin. Latin was still very pronounced in the influence in the dialects, because a lot of it stemmed from the old, you know, Latin. The letter V, you know, we say veni, vidi, vici. Well, it wasn't veni, vidi, vici. In Latin, it was weni, widi, wici. Okay? The V was 27 pronounced as a W. Okay? So the street that we lived on, the Villa dela Valle, we would say Willa dela Walle. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: How is that close to Villa dela…? You'd never understand. The Italian teacher we had in high school, Mr. [unintelligible - 00:42:25], I used to talk to him like that, you know. SPEAKER: You didn't have Lucia? SPEAKER: No. I'd love to hear what you… they're all dead. [Laughter] We're the younger generation. Okay? But that's the way it was. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I have a question. We were talking about how poor we were, but when you look at photographs that were taken when our parents got married and shortly after, they were always well dressed. SPEAKER: Oh, yes. SPEAKER: The wedding pictures were just beautiful. How could they afford all those [if they were poor?] SPEAKER: Took care of what they had. I had… your father, he had, I had dress pants, play pants, a pair of sneakers, and a pair of shoes. And we took care of them. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: Okay? But you weren't in Italy. SPEAKER: No. I'm talking [unintelligible - 00:43:23]. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:43:23]. Oh, yeah, they always -- the wedding pictures are gorgeous. SPEAKER: I mean, they always had big hats. SPEAKER: But there's an Italian saying—correct me, Vinnie—"[foreign language - 00:43:32] fare una bella figura. You have to make a good picture." SPEAKER: The most important thing. SPEAKER: You have to make a good impression. Okay? So that impression to them was very important. So in something like, you know, a 28 wedding or having somebody at your house as a guest, you have to present yourself well. You have to make a bella figura. Okay? So you went all out. You went all out with those things. SPEAKER: Did you have a sitting room? SPEAKER: No, we had a kitchen. SPEAKER: My mother had a power and nobody ever… SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Yeah. We didn't have that till we came here. That's when we had too much. [Laughter] SPEAKER: Yes. SPEAKER: Yes. SPEAKER: Over there, all we had was a kitchen. SPEAKER: No matter where we lived, we had a sitting room, and we had a kitchen going, so… in two of the houses we lived in. SPEAKER: No, but that's true. Impressions have always been very important. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Yeah. And of course, that… SPEAKER: The women show you the red carpet face. SPEAKER: It goes along with the pride. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: Exactly. SPEAKER: And at a wedding, a family affair… SPEAKER: Well, you described… SPEAKER: … you put out the best that you have even if you have to borrow to do that. And you go kind of go overboard. SPEAKER: Are you also impressing the people that you left behind to show them that you're doing well in this new country? SPEAKER: Absolutely. Absolutely. SPEAKER: Probably. SPEAKER: No, no, I went back, like I said, 1996 and I met all my first cousins. I'd never seen them because they were all younger, so it's the first 29 time that I met them, and they're adults, you know, for the most part. The second cousins were [laughter] younger but the first cousins were all, you know, married you know, for the most part, have families of their own. And I was at the time, you know, 57 years old, so I was retired. I don't know if that made them… you know, because they asked me, [foreign language - 00:45:28] you know, "Do you have a pension?" I said, "Yes." Now, maybe to them that was inconceivable [laughter], okay, to use that word, that I was able to go there, take a tour, you know, rent a car and whatnot. But they had cars, too. They had cars, too. And maybe, maybe from an economic viewpoint, they might've been impressed, but I probably left there being more impressed with them and their families than they had of me. Okay? SPEAKER: My mother's family, most of them stayed in Italy, and my father had never met them. But whenever they took pictures and took these snapshots and sent them to my mother's family, they always made sure there's a car within the picture. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: Absolutely. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:46:17] trying to tell the in-laws that your daughter married okay. SPEAKER: Do you still have the wedding pictures? SPEAKER: Make a bella figura, eh? [Laughter] SPEAKER: Speaking of funny pictures, my mother's now in the nursing home. And straightening up and things, I found this rolled up picture -- well, 1932. Can you figure out how brittle that was? And it was a picture of their wedding reception with the hotel name there at the bottom, March 1932. And I was amazed at how many people that I recognized because it had all the guests, too. The family was all lined up at the back. I think it's the only picture that I have that 30 has the entire family. And of course they're all mostly deceased. There are three living people out of that entire family. SPEAKER: Wow! SPEAKER: And then of course all the guests were in the foreground. Well, there were people that I didn't know, and Smithy [unintelligible - 00:47:27] I see him once in a while and I know he's a possible relative. So I showed him the picture. You know, he knew this one, he knew that one, so I added a few more names and wrote them down. And a couple of them, [unintelligible - 00:47:43] I said, "They can't drive. [Laughter] I couldn't believe this." Well, how did they get from Leominster to Boston…? SPEAKER: Exactly. SPEAKER: … to this wedding in March [unintelligible - 00:47:56] the whole bit, they took cabs. I could not… I still… it's inconceivable to me that they could have done that. SPEAKER: Right. Right. For that kind of an affair, they have to present themselves in a positive light. SPEAKER: They didn't have [unintelligible - 00:48:12]. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: You went to here, you went to Littleton, [unintelligible - 00:48:16]. SPEAKER: Oh, yes. SPEAKER: It used to take us four hours to get to Littleton. SPEAKER: You know what? Your neighbor, your ex-neighbor just died recently. SPEAKER: Mrs. [unintelligible - 00:48:23]? Yeah. I heard that. SPEAKER: Yeah, Vinnie was talking about playing soccer. It was a ragball. SPEAKER: Both. Whatever you could get. 31 SPEAKER: Just a stocking filled with rags. You keep wrapping the stock around it until, you know, and then you sewed it up, and we all did it. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:48:38]. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:48:45]. SPEAKER: It wasn't until after the war -- we used to get packages on occasion from the relatives in the United States, and it was always a big family thing when a package arrived. It was the town news. You know, the [unintelligible - 00:48:56] family got a package from America. And so, all the kids would gather around it, they open it up, and there might be some clothing or this and that. One time, there was this real ball. Okay? A real ball. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: So my cousin and I took it outside and we were so proud to show, you know, to all the kids we got a real ball, rubber ball, and we're playing soccer and damn it, we can kick that thing to make it go where we want. We just had a heck of a time with it. Okay? SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Years later, we come to the United States. In the summertime, we played baseball. And come the fall, I see these kids out—this is in Pennsylvania—and they're throwing a ball around. I look at it; I reckon it's a football. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: We had no idea what that ball was. Okay? We were trying to play soccer with a football. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And so, I was laughing about it years later [laughter]. Okay, thinking of these little ragamuffin kids barefooted trying to play soccer with a football. We had no idea. We didn't know what a football was or a baseball. Soccer's the only game that we knew. 32 So whatever it was, we were going to play soccer with it. [Laughter] SPEAKER: Remember the baseball? Every Christmas, somebody would get a new baseball. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: And that lasted us all summer catching it. [Unintelligible - 00:50:15] SPEAKER: I remember we played baseball on your [unintelligible - 00:50:24]. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: And the Mazafarro was owned by [unintelligible - 00:50:29] and oh, yeah, you know, you never forget those neighborhoods. You just don't forget them, you know. And we used to go [unintelligible - 00:50:36] and entertain yourself. I mean, made up your own rules. You know, you learned leadership that way as well. You know, everything is planned [unintelligible - 00:50:47]. SPEAKER: Yeah. Getting along with your peers, right? SPEAKER: We were all playing. SPEAKER: When I came to Pennsylvania in 1971, almost every single principal in the city of Monticello was Italian. Remember that? SPEAKER: Mm-hmm. SPEAKER: And who would have ever thunk that we would elect an Italian mayor? That never happened before. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:51:08] city council. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Okay. That I guess is the determination and trust that maybe this ethnic group [unintelligible - 00:51:16]. SPEAKER: As I said, my dad was the first Italian congressman. SPEAKER: That's right. That was amazing. But I'll tell you what, he'd walk on the street. I remember one Halloween going uptown, he had 33 peashooters, bows, [unintelligible - 00:51:31] peashooters, wax, the whole… SPEAKER: The whole thing. SPEAKER: The whole thing to get [unintelligible - 00:51:36]. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:51:38]. [Laughter] SPEAKER: We never… we got to the edge of town, picked them up… SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Do you remember the wax, Wanda? SPEAKER: What of it? SPEAKER: What we were referring to about wax? [Unintelligible - 00:51:51] what we did with the wax. SPEAKER: Hold it. After this story, though, we have to end. SPEAKER: Yeah, okay. [Laughter] SPEAKER: It's getting late. But it was very enjoyable. [Unintelligible - 00:52:00] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:52:04] get all that stuff and we melted the wax on top of it to preserve it. SPEAKER: Like paraffin. SPEAKER: Like paraffin. SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: And on Halloween. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:52:11]. [Crosstalk] SPEAKER: Uh-huh. SPEAKER: My generation is [unintelligible - 00:52:18]. SPEAKER: You never had peashooters and stuff like that? SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: But I probably wouldn't have to [unintelligible - 00:52:24]. SPEAKER: I do remember just to add. And you asked me how my grandparents probably got to this area, and through our conversations it was the building of the Clintondale… 34 SPEAKER: Okay. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: That's where it was. SPEAKER: It took me a little while trying to put that together. SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: Maybe we should end just with an education question. I was wondering, if you could tell me what the difference is nowadays between the parent, child, and teacher relationship? I think it was Joe that mentioned that if you did anything wrong, you were really worried about what your parents think, that… SPEAKER: Yeah. I mentioned it, so I'll start it. I relate to my mother—not my father, my mother. Mothers for some reason, in Italian families were the ones that took care of the school business and all that kind of stuff. And we were taught certain things, okay? And we were taught respect and, you know, parents respected professionalism. Okay? The teacher was a professional. When the parent went to the school and the teacher said this, that was accepted without question and you were expected to represent your family as a gentleman, right or wrong. The last few years, I spent in education, and I spent a number of years doing something [unintelligible - 00:53:43] filling in at interim, okay? Today, the child is never wrong. They go home and they tell their parents, "The teacher did this or said this." Their mother picks up the phone and calls another child. I called so many kids. This is getting to be common in the school. Okay? Right or wrong, the kid is going to say, "Oh, yeah, Jeremy was right. The teacher was wrong." Recently, I witnessed when an excellent teacher was dismissed on the say-so of a few kids who fabricated the story, and I know they fabricated it. I wasn't the principal. It would've never happened… but I guess the word I want to use is trust and respect, 35 and they don't happen today. The kids run the show, and the principals and the superintendents and the teachers are frightened of litigation and fabrication. And it's absolutely… [I worked at destroying, kids were surviving but it certainly makes things] [unintelligible - 00:54:49]. SPEAKER: Anything else you can add on that note? SPEAKER: I guess, you know, if we talk about the world getting smaller, so much more of the outside has come into the school. Schools used to be more closed. [Unintelligible - 00:55:04] any of your classes, you close the door and the teacher taught and so on. But as we've expanded, as the school has opened up to the world to educate kids, the world has also come into the school. It's been a two-way street. And I still believe that parents basically want what's best for their kids. Sometimes they may not know what's best for their kids. Sometimes they might lack the parenting skills. Because in that respect, life is a lot different today than it was 40 years ago. And so it was simple in that respect. You had clear lines of authority. Whatever your parents said, that's what you did. Relatives supported that. They would never contradict your parents. Parents never contradicted the school. They might think the teacher was wrong, but because the teacher was an authority figure and it was instilling the respect of authority that was more important than the incident itself, okay, that's what they were trying to deal with. And some of that has been lost. I mean, I agree with Joe. But I still basically believe, you know, the occasions that I've had disagreements with parents over kids obviously, when you sit with them one on one and you communicate to them that you understand they want what's best for their youngsters, just respect the fact that I also want what's best for your youngster. We're together on this, okay? Let's not have the confrontation between us, because that moves us away 36 from what the object of the conversation was, and that's this youngster. That's what we're trying to deal with instead of satisfying our own egos. Okay? SPEAKER: Let's say we did do well… SPEAKER: So there's more dialogue. There's more dialogue now between school and home. Okay? There wasn't before. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:57:07] is to get parents and discuss. And most of the times, I would say we want to get the point across and the people would leave happy. Okay? And we took the time to get them in. But we also had staff that understood, and they took the time to get on the phone and work with kids [unintelligible - 00:57:27]. We teach to a [testing]. We have a [unintelligible - 00:57:33]. I swore to God that I hope we never became New York. We have to ace the test. But we teach to a test. SPEAKER: I never [unintelligible - 00:57:43] day that we would teach to a test. SPEAKER: Well, you two are an unusual pair though. I mean, one of you was always ready when there was a CORE evaluation. I know schools with principals who [unintelligible - 00:57:55] in a CORE. SPEAKER: That is important. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:58:00]. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: But there are schools where principals [unintelligible - 00:58:02]. SPEAKER: Some say special education, bilingual education, anything out of the mainstream, has been outside of their realm of responsibility. So the special education is the realm of the special educator and the director of special ed. It's a SPED problem, let him handle it. Joe and I always work on the premise that if it's in our four walls, they belong to us. Whether it was bilingual or SPED, they were our concerns and our problems. Lucy is right. It's one of the 37 things that I don't see today. There's a lot of administrative involvement in some of those areas. And there should be more, because the principal controls the resources in the building. It's not the SPED director, it's not the LD teacher who will be sitting there and promising that we're going to do this or that or make this modification for the benefit of the youngster and then can't follow up on it because somebody else sitting there disagrees. Okay? Somebody has to be the arbiter of that. Somebody has to, and that's the principal. SPEAKER: Lucy never has to make an appointment to see us. I mean, no teacher ever had to make an appointment. I guess that's what's happened today in schools. SPEAKER: Open door. SPEAKER: Yeah. I know the schools in Leominster, you have to make an appointment to see the principal as a staff did. Christ, that's sacrilegious. A parent has to make an appointment. I know a parent went into a school not too long ago, he was told to come back tomorrow. [Unintelligible - 00:59:33] my telephone number because if it were a small problem, you never let it get to be a big problem. [But times are changing.] SPEAKER: We just need to… there's only a few minutes left on this. So thank you very much though. I could stay here for hours. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: All of you were so informative. And thank you again to Lucy. Thank you very much. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:59:56] a lot of fun [unintelligible - 00:59:59] negative. SPEAKER: This is the end of the interview./AT/mb/es

Joseph Prantil, July 17, 2013 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Joseph Prantil. The interview was conducted on July 17, 2013, by Sarah Langston. Joseph discusses his experiences with 25th Street. ; 17p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Joseph Prantil Interviewed by Sarah Langsdon 17 July 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Joseph Prantil Interviewed by Sarah Langsdon 17 July 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Prantil, Joseph, an oral history by Sarah Langsdon, 17 July 2013 , WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Joseph Prantil July 17, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Joseph Prantil. The interview was conducted on July 17, 2013, by Sarah Langston. Joseph discusses his experiences with 25th Street. SL: This is Sarah Langsdon and I am interviewing Joseph Prantil at his home in South Weber, Utah. Today is July 17, 2013. Joe, tell me a little bit about when and where you were born. JP: I was born in Ogden in 1943. So that makes me 70-years-old. I've lived here all of my life. I've been out of the state for periods of time, but I have lived here almost all of my life. SL: Where is your family from? JP: My grandmother and grandfather on my dad's side, who are the focus of our interview today, were born in Prio, Italy and migrated here. It's just a guess, but I think it was around 1900. My mother's parents migrated to America from southern Italy. SL: What was your grandfather's occupation? JP: In Italy, he was a stone mason and the family had a marble quarry. That was one of the major industries of that particular town in addition to orchards and vineyards. The quarry is still in operation today. I was there about five years ago and had a chance to see the whole operation. It's still in operation by the Prantil family. SL: When he moved here, what became his business? 1 JP: The story is that he went to Argentina first. My grandmother had brothers living there, so he stopped there. When he came here he worked as a coal miner. For a brief period of time he went to Elkhorn, Montana to mine, but ended up in Superior, Wyoming working in a coal mine. Shortly afterward he went back to Italy and brought my grandma to America. SL: How did he end up in Ogden? JP: He contracted Black Lung disease from the mines, which many of the miners did at that time, so he had to leave the mine and a lot of his friends from the same area of Italy lived in Ogden. Most of them were dairy farmers out in West Weber. He moved here to be with them and they encouraged him to come. SL: What stories were you told about his business at the Utah Hot Springs? JP: After my grandparents arrived here, my dad was born in 1910 in Superior, Wyoming and so were some of his siblings. My dad was the oldest of four siblings. I think that my grandfather came to Ogden around 1917 and he used the money that he saved and bought the Utah Hot Springs. I think that was probably one of his first purchases. My dad told me that at the time that they had a big hotel, the mineral water pools and swimming pools. It was quite an operation and people would come from all over to stay there. They had a railroad spur that went near there. He operated that business for quite some time until it burned down. I'm not sure when it did burn down, but Dad mentioned that they lost a lot of their possessions in that fire. They never did rebuild it. People in that day didn't believe in insurance, so when they had a disaster of some kind they just lost the 2 money. Around that time he bought the property on 25th Street and started operating that business as well. SL: What was the business on 25th Street and where was it? JP: It was on the corner of Lincoln Avenue and 25th Street. SL: What business did he run? JP: According to what Dad told me, it was an ice cream parlor, but in those days they called it a soda fountain. There was another area in the back that was a drug store, which they called an apothecary at the time. I think he may have rented that out and had somebody else run it because he wasn't a pharmacist. There were two businesses in there and then there were rooms upstairs. It was like a small hotel. SL: Was he ever arrested for bootlegging? JP: Yes. Before prohibition, the place may have been just a bar and they sold alcohol there. Prohibition came along and it was natural for him to turn it into the soda fountain. During those days, they were also selling alcohol on the street. I think downstairs they were probably gambling and having card games too and doing what they did back in those days. SL: Do you know what his set up was for running the alcohol? JP: Dad tells me that since my grandpa was a stone mason, he built a false wall in the basement and put a tank behind it. They plumbed the tank up into the faucets in the sink in the bathroom and had valves that would turn on the faucet and the booze would flow through it. They also had a tank above one of the doors where 3 there was a false ceiling. How many other tanks I don't know, but those are the two I know about. SL: Do you know how he was caught bootlegging? JP: I don't know how he was caught. I'm sure there was some kind of an informant that tipped them off to that. I heard stories that my uncles were caught bringing the booze from West Weber. The farmers were growing corn and they had stills where they made the alcohol and then they'd run it in. My uncles got caught one time running it in, but that's all I know about that piece of it. SL: Did he end up having to shut down the soda shop? JP: I think the local police were overlooking what was going on, but the federal police were not. It was federal police that arrested him for selling booze there. He was also arrested for selling booze at the Hot Springs, so he was arrested a couple of different times. In one of the articles I read (and I didn't know this before I got the article), but they listed his name as Luis Smith. He didn't give whoever arrested him his proper name. He didn't have to shut down the soda shop. SL: What was your grandfather's name? JP: It was Luis, but it was Luigi originally. SL: And your grandmother's name? JP: Her name was Josepina, but she he went by Josepine. As a kid, I didn't know their names. I only knew them by the Italian name for grandma and grandpa which was Nono and Nona. That's how I knew them and that's what I called them. Later, I learned their names. 4 SL: They also owned a gas station on 27th Street? JP: Yes, he bought a gas station and they ran it for a lot of years during the depression. According to what Dad told me, people would barter for gas. Someone had chickens and he had gasoline so they'd barter for food and other things. Growing up, I remember there was a Dr. Moyes who was a dentist and he would give us dental services for free and I never knew why until Dad eventually told me that he owed the family money for gas during the depression. SL: Where was the gas station? JP: The gas station was on the corner of 27th and Grant. It was a Mobile gas station, but I don't know what they named it back then. When I was a kid they had rented it out to Clix Swaner Sr., who ran it for most of the time that I was a kid. He's quite a well-known figure in town too. He lived to be 103-years-old. SL: Going back to the soda shop. They're most famous for the rooms upstairs being the Rose Rooms. What were you told about the Rose Rooms? JP: I wasn't told a whole lot because I don't think they talked about that other than when Dad told me that it had been a brothel upstairs. By the time I was old enough to remember it wasn't a brothel anymore. It had been shut down by then and I know that they had a lot of single men living up there. They were renting them out by the room. He did tell me that the Madame had a big cat and I'm not sure if it was a leopard or what it was, but he told me that story and that's about all I knew about that. SL: What about the doors? 5 JP: Oh yeah. When I went in there I'd help him do maintenance on it and that sort of thing. There was a door that went upstairs and came in from the street. It was a separate door and it went up the north side of the building and it had a separate stairwell that didn't actually go into the ice cream parlor or anything, it was its own entryway. At the top of the stairs there was another door and Dad told me that there were electric switches on it and there was a little peep-hole with bars over the window so they would watch to see who was coming up before they would let them in to make sure they weren't police. I asked him about all the holes around the window and he told me that someone had shot it with a shot gun, so I guess it was a pretty rough place. SL: Probably. What were some of the shops that you remember being on 25th Street when you were growing up? JP: The only thing I remember really is that they were bars. I don't remember a lot of shops down there, but there were businesses that may be still there like the Gift House, but it was when they were a pawn shop. That's how they started out, they were a pawn shop and they sold pawn items and guns and that sort of thing and still do to this day. The street was full of bars and some restaurants, mostly Mexican and Chinese food. SL: So not very much shopping. JP: No, not very much shopping. SL: Was that more a long Washington? JP: Yes, there were more along Washington. 6 SL: Do you remember any of the shops along Washington that your family used to go to? JP: Yes I do. There was a Woolworths Store and everyone would stop in at the soda fountain there. There was B&B clothes shop and Nye's and Perkin's had a clothing store along there. It was the place to go for shopping. In later years, as we all know, everything left Ogden City and it became pretty dilapidated, but it was the place to go. It was fun Christmas shopping there because of all the shops and stores and clothing stores along there. It was a fun place to shop. SL: Did you ever go to any of the theaters there? JP: Yes, there were several theaters in town and that's where we would go on Saturday morning. We'd all go see the show for cheap. SL: Was it usually the Egyptian or Paramount? JP: The Paramount Theater, the Egyptian, the Orpheum are the ones I remember. SL: Did you ever go to the Ogden Theater? JP: I don't remember that one. SL: It was across the street from the Ben Lomond Hotel on 25th Street. JP: I don't remember that one for some reason. There was also a big hotel on the corner of 25th Street and Washington and I think it was called the Broom Hotel. There were shops along the bottom of the building and the hotel was above it. SL: I think that's where Woolworths was. JP: That is where that was. 7 SL: Speaking of the Broom, do you remember any other buildings that are no longer there on 25th Street or Washington? JP: There were different shops and stores along there, but I don't remember exactly what they were. I know there was a sporting goods store called Wolfe's on 23rd Street and they tore that down and built other things. SL: Did you ever go to the Berthana or White City? JP: We'd go there to roller skate, but they were major dance halls and people would go dancing at Berthana or White City so they were ballrooms more than anything, but then we'd go roller skating there. SL: What were some other places that you'd hang out or what did you do for fun? JP: When we were kids we didn't have a television, but we had the radio. I remember sitting by the radio with Dad listening to the fights and to some of the shows like The Shadow. There were a lot of different radio shows that were mysteries, so we'd listen to the mystery sometimes. Television came along as time went on and we'd watch some, but not very much. It was something you watched on the weekend or occasionally. We mostly played outside. We had fields down below where we lived on 15th Street and the Mill Stream went through here. We'd play by the stream and go fishing in the summer and there was a little pond down there that we'd ice skate on in the winter. We spent most of our time outdoors. SL: Do you have any other things you'd like to share with us? JP: We talked some time ago about tunnels under the street. I do remember when Dad took me down there the first time in the basement of the building and by 8 then it was called the El Borracho and they had rented it out. After my grandpa died they rented the whole building out. He died in 1948. He was a pretty young man really, but I think Black Lung was part of his demise. You probably know the story of my grandmother being arrested. It was her building and the brothel was upstairs so they arrested her too and she had to quit renting it to the Madame. SL: How long did your family own that building? JP: I don't know exactly when they bought it, but I think it was somewhere in the early twenties and they didn't sell it until after my grandma died in the 1980's. They had everything all rented out and my grandma lived on the rentals from the buildings and the gas station. She lived on that and whatever my grandpa left her. Getting back to the tunnel issue, my Dad took me downstairs and I could see where they had cinder-blocked an area that was kind of a squared out area and Dad said that there was some kind of room back there and he talked about tunnels, but that's the only conversation we ever had about some kind of egress out that way. SL: With the reputation of El Borracho, did your family ever get caught up in the things that were happening down there? JP: Not really. They rented it out, so I know my dad would go collect the rent for my grandma and I remember going in there with him several times to collect the rent. I know that he was a little bit cautious depending on when he went in there because there were some pretty rough characters in there. 9 SL: It had quite a reputation. JP: I think what happened is that as time went on, the city wanted to try to close all the bars and that sort of thing down there and had plans to redevelop it, so they were involved in the purchase of the building. SL: So the city bought it from your family? JP: I think they did. They had a ghost buyer. Dean Perkins bought it, but I think he was actually a ghost buyer for the city as I understand it. SL: Well, thank you Joe. We appreciate it. 10

Ali E. Abbas (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is an associate professor in the Department of Industrial and Enterprise Systems Engineering at the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign. He received an M.S. in electrical engineering (1998), an M.S. in engineering economic systems and operations research (2001), a Ph.D. in management science and engineering (2003), and a Ph.D. (minor) in electrical engineering, all from Stanford University. He worked as a lecturer in the Department of Management Science and Engineering at Stanford and worked in Schlumberger Oilfield Services, where he held several international positions in wireline logging, operations management, and international training. He has also worked on several consulting projects for mergers and acquisitions in California, and cotaught several executive seminars on decision analysis at Strategic Decisions Group in Menlo Park, California. His research interests include utility theory, decision making with incomplete information and preferences, dynamic programming, and information theory. Dr. Abbas is a senior member of the IEEE and a member of the Institute for Operations Research and the Management Sciences (INFORMS). He is also an associate editor for the Decision Analysis and Operations Research journals of INFORMS. Email: aliabbas@illinois.edu . Kash Barker (" Decision Trees with Single and Multiple Interval-Valued Objectives ") is an assistant professor in the School of Industrial and Systems Engineering at the University of Oklahoma. He holds a Ph.D. in systems engineering from the University of Virginia, where he was a research assistant in the Center for Risk Management of Engineering Systems, and B.S. and M.S. degrees in industrial engineering from the University of Oklahoma. His primary research interests lie in modeling interdependent economic systems and decision making for large-scale system sustainment, with research funded by the National Science Foundation, the Federal Highway Administration, and the Army Research Office. Email: kashbarker@ou.edu . J. Eric Bickel (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus " and " A Simulation-Based Approach to Decision Making with Partial Information ") is an assistant professor in the Graduate Program in Operations Research (Department of Mechanical Engineering) at the University of Texas at Austin. In addition, Professor Bickel is a fellow in both the Center for International Energy and Environmental Policy (CIEEP) and the Center for Petroleum Asset Risk Management (CPARM). His research interests include the theory and practice of decision analysis and its application in the energy and climate-change arenas. His work has addressed the modeling of probabilistic dependence, value of information, scoring rules, calibration, risk preference, decision education, decision making in sports, and climate engineering as a response to climate change. Prior to returning to academia, Professor Bickel was a senior engagement manager for Strategic Decisions Group. He has consulted around the world in a range of industries, including oil and gas, electricity generation/transmission/delivery, energy trading and marketing, commodity and specialty chemicals, life sciences, financial services, and metals and mining. Professor Bickel is the vice president/president-elect of the Decision Analysis Society and an associate editor for Decision Analysis. He holds an M.S. and Ph.D. from the Department of Engineering–Economic Systems at Stanford University. Email: ebickel@mail.utexas.edu . Vicki M. Bier (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is a full professor in the Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, where she is currently department chair and also directs the Center for Human Performance and Risk Analysis. She is also the past president of the Decision Analysis Society and is an associate editor for Decision Analysis. Her research interests include applications of operations research, risk analysis, and decision analysis to problems of homeland security and critical infrastructure protection. Email: bier@engr.wisc.edu . Samuel E. Bodily (" Multiplicative Utilities for Health and Consumption ") is the John Tyler Professor of Business Administration at the University of Virginia's Darden School. He has published textbooks and more than 40 articles in journals ranging from Harvard Business Review to Management Science. His publications relate to decision and risk analysis, multiattribute utility, forecasting, strategy modeling, revenue management, and eStrategy. Along with Casey Lichtendahl, he was runner-up for the 2012 Decision Analysis Publication Award. He has edited special issues of Interfaces on Decision and Risk Analysis, and Strategy Modeling and Analysis. Professor Bodily has published well over 120 cases, including a couple of the 10 best-selling cases at Darden. He received the Distinguished Casewriter Wachovia award from Darden in 2005 and three other best case or research Wachovia awards. Professor Bodily is faculty leader for the executive program Strategic Thinking and Action. He is the course-head of and teaches in a highly valued first-year M.B.A. course in decision analysis; has a successful second-year elective, Management Decision Models; and has taught eStrategy and Strategy. He is a past winner of the Decision Sciences International Instructional Award. He has served as chair of the INFORMS Decision Analysis Society. He has taught numerous executive education programs for Darden and private companies, has consulted widely for business and government entities, and has served as an expert witness. Professor Bodily was on the faculties of MIT Sloan School of Management and Boston University and has been a visiting professor at INSEAD Singapore, Stanford University, and the University of Washington. He has Ph.D. and S.M. degrees from Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a B.S. in physics from Brigham Young University. Email: bodilys@virginia.edu . David V. Budescu (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is the Anne Anastasi Professor of Psychometrics and Quantitative Psychology at Fordham University. He held positions at the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign and the University of Haifa, and visiting positions at Carnegie Mellon University, University of Gothenburg, the Kellogg School at Northwestern University, the Hebrew University, and the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion). His research is in the areas of human judgment, individual and group decision making under uncertainty and with incomplete and vague information, and statistics for the behavioral and social sciences. He is on the editorial boards of Applied Psychological Measurement, Decision Analysis (associate editor), Journal of Behavioral Decision Making, Journal of Mathematical Psychology, Journal of Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory & Cognition (2000–2003), Multivariate Behavioral Research, Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes (1992–2002), and Psychological Methods (1996–2000). He is past president of the Society for Judgment and Decision Making (2000–2001), fellow of the Association for Psychological Science, and an elected member of the Society of Multivariate Experimental Psychologists. Email: budescu@fordham.edu . John C. Butler (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is a clinical associate professor of finance and the academic director of the Energy Management and Innovation Center in the McCombs School of Business at the University of Texas at Austin, the outgoing secretary/treasurer of the INFORMS Decision Analysis Society, and an associate editor for Decision Analysis. Professor Butler received his Ph.D. in management science and information systems from the University of Texas at Austin in 1998. His research interests involve the use of decision science models to support decision making, with a particular emphasis on decision and risk analysis models with multiple-performance criteria. Professor Butler has consulted with a number of organizations regarding the application of decision analysis tools to a variety of practical problems. Most of his consulting projects involve use of Visual Basic for Applications and Excel to implement complex decision science models in a user-friendly format. Email: john.butler2@mccombs.utexas.edu . Enrico Diecidue (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is an associate professor of Decision Sciences at INSEAD (France) and holds a Ph.D. from the CentER (Center for Economic Research), Tilburg University, the Netherlands. Since 2001 he has been a resident faculty member at INSEAD, except for 2008–2009 when he was a visiting professor at Wharton and 2010–2011 when he was on sabbatical at the Erasmus School of Economics (the Netherlands). His main research interests are in individual decision making under uncertainty, health decisions, and experimental economics. He is interested in the role of regret, aspiration levels, and time in individual decisions. His current research is also addressing the role of groups in complex and ambiguous decisions. Professor Diecidue's research has appeared in leading journals in economics and management. He is on the editorial board of Journal of Risk and Uncertainty and is an associate editor for Decision Analysis. He teaches M.B.A., executive M.B.A., and executive participants on topics such as uncertainty, data and judgment, decision making under uncertainty, risk management, and management decision making. He has won teaching awards at INSEAD and Wharton. Email: enrico.diecidue@insead.edu . Robin L. Dillon-Merrill (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is an associate professor in the McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University. Professor Dillon-Merrill seeks to understand and explain how and why people make the decisions that they do under conditions of uncertainty and risk. This research specifically examines critical decisions that people have made following near-miss events in situations with severe outcomes (i.e., hurricane evacuation, terrorism, NASA mission management, etc.). She has received research funding from the National Science Foundation, NASA, the Department of Defense, and the Department of Homeland Security through the University of Southern California's National Center for Risk and Economic Analysis for Terrorism Events. She has served as a risk analysis and project management expert on several National Academies Committees, including the review of the New Orleans regional hurricane protection projects and the application of risk-analysis techniques to securing the Department of Energy's special nuclear materials. She is an associate editor for Decision Analysis. Email: rld9@georgetown.edu . Raimo P. Hämäläinen (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is a professor of operations research and director of the Systems Analysis Laboratory at Aalto University, Finland. He received his M.Sc. and Dr. Tech. degrees in systems theory and applied mathematics from the Helsinki University of Technology. His research interests include decision analysis, risk and game theory, and experimental economics, as well as dynamic optimization with aerospace applications. He is widely known for his work in environmental decision making and energy policy. He is the designer of widely used decision analysis software, including the first Web-based value tree software, Web-HIPRE; Smart-Swaps; and the Joint Gains negotiation support system. He has recently introduced the concept of Systems Intelligence, which opens a new perspective to organizational learning and personal growth. He is on the editorial board of a number of journals, including Decision Analysis (associate editor), European Journal of Operational Research, Journal of Group Decision and Negotiation, and EURO Journal on Decision Processes. Dr. Hämäläinen has received the Edgeworth-Pareto Award of the International Society for Multiple Criteria Decision Making. He is also the honorary president of the Finnish Operations Research Society. Email: raimo.hamalainen@aalto.fi . Ralph L. Keeney (" Value-Focused Brainstorming ") is a research professor emeritus at the Fuqua School of Business at Duke University. His education includes a B.S. in engineering from the University of California, Los Angeles, and a Ph.D. in operations research from Massachusetts Institute of Technology. His research interests are in the areas of decision making and risk analysis. He has applied such work to important personal decisions and as a consultant for private and public organizations addressing corporate management problems, environmental and risk studies, and decisions involving life-threatening risks. Prior to joining the Duke faculty, Professor Keeney was a faculty member in Management and Engineering at MIT and at the University of Southern California, a research scholar at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis in Austria, and the founder of the decision and risk analysis group of a large geotechnical and environmental consulting firm. Professor Keeney is the author of many books and articles, including Value-Focused Thinking, Decisions with Multiple Objectives, coauthored with Howard Raiffa, and Smart Choices, coauthored with John S. Hammond and Howard Raiffa, which has been translated into 15 languages. Dr. Keeney was awarded the Ramsey Medal for distinguished contributions in decision analysis by the Decision Analysis Society and is a member of the U.S. National Academy of Engineering. Email: keeney@duke.edu . L. Robin Keller (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is a professor of operations and decision technologies in the Merage School of Business at the University of California, Irvine. She received her Ph.D. and M.B.A. in management science and her B.A. in mathematics from the University of California, Los Angeles. She has served as a program director for the Decision, Risk, and Management Science Program of the U.S. National Science Foundation (NSF). Her research is on decision analysis and risk analysis for business and policy decisions and has been funded by NSF and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Her research interests cover multiple attribute decision making, riskiness, fairness, probability judgments, ambiguity of probabilities or outcomes, risk analysis (for terrorism, environmental, health, and safety risks), time preferences, problem structuring, cross-cultural decisions, and medical decision making. She is the outgoing Editor-in-Chief of Decision Analysis, published by the Institute for Operations Research and the Management Sciences (INFORMS). She is a Fellow of INFORMS and has held numerous roles in INFORMS, including board member and chair of the INFORMS Decision Analysis Society. She is a recipient of the George F. Kimball Medal from INFORMS. She has served as the decision analyst on three National Academy of Sciences committees. She has been appointed to the editorial board of the new EURO Journal on Decision Processes. Email: lrkeller@uci.edu . Anton Kühberger (" Explaining Risk Attitude in Framing Tasks by Regulatory Focus: A Verbal Protocol Analysis and a Simulation Using Fuzzy Logic ") is a professor of psychology at the University of Salzburg, Department of Cognition and Development, and a member of the Center of Neurocognitive Research at the University of Salzburg. His research interests include the following areas: judgment and decision making, in particular framing, and the role of risk, ambiguity, and uncertainty in decision making; thinking and reasoning, in particular counterfactual thinking and the notion of rationality; and social cognition, in particular the foundation of the understanding of oneself and others either by a theory of mind or by simulation. In addition, he is interested in the development of scientific methods such as verbal protocol analysis and in understanding the role statistics for the accumulation of knowledge. He is a member of the editorial board of several scholarly journals and currently is vice-dean of the Faculty of Natural Sciences at the University of Salzburg. Email: anton.kuehberger@sbg.ac.at . Kenneth C. Lichtendahl Jr. (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus " and " Multiplicative Utilities for Health and Consumption ") is an assistant professor of business administration at the Darden School of Business at the University of Virginia. He is an associate editor for Decision Analysis. He received his Ph.D. in decision sciences from the Fuqua School of Business at Duke University. His research focuses on decision analysis, Bayesian statistics, game theory, and dynamic programming. Email: lichtendahlc@darden.virginia.edu . Jason R. W. Merrick (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is a professor in the Department of Statistical Sciences and Operations Research at Virginia Commonwealth University. He has a D.Sc. in operations research from George Washington University. He teaches courses in decision analysis, risk analysis, and simulation. His research is primarily in the area of decision analysis and Bayesian statistics. He has worked on projects ranging from assessing maritime oil transportation and ferry system safety, the environmental health of watersheds, and optimal replacement policies for rail tracks and machine tools. He has received grants from the National Science Foundation, the Federal Aviation Administration, the U.S. Coast Guard, the American Bureau of Shipping, British Petroleum, and Booz Allen Hamilton, among others. He has also performed training for Infineon Technologies, Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, and Capital One Services. He is an associate editor for Decision Analysis and the EURO Journal on Decision Processes. Email: jrmerric@vcu.edu . Luis Vicente Montiel (" A Simulation-Based Approach to Decision Making with Partial Information ") is a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Texas at Austin. His main research interest is mathematical modeling for optimization under uncertainty, with a special interest in decision analysis and simulation learning for optimization. His current research is dedicated to providing a theoretical and practical framework for approximating joint distributions under partial information. Luis has a Ph.D. in operations research from the University of Texas, an M.S. in financial engineering from Columbia University, and an M.S. in management science and engineering from Stanford University. Email: lvmontiel@utexas.edu . Jay R. Simon (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") is an assistant professor in the Defense Resources Management Institute of the Naval Postgraduate School. He holds a Ph.D. in operations and decision technologies from the Merage School of Business at the University of California, Irvine, an M.S. in management science and engineering, and a B.S. in mathematical and computational science from Stanford University. His primary research interest is multiattribute preference modeling, particularly involving outcomes that occur over time, space, or groups of people. His current and recent work includes a prostate cancer decision model, preference models for health decisions, preferences over geographical data, altruistic utility modeling, and multiattribute procurement. He is an associate editor for Decision Analysis and is the webmaster and social media officer for the Decision Analysis Society of INFORMS. Email: jrsimon@nps.edu . Christian Wiener (" Explaining Risk Attitude in Framing Tasks by Regulatory Focus: A Verbal Protocol Analysis and a Simulation Using Fuzzy Logic ") received his doctorate from the University of Salzburg, Austria. His first research area was the application of the EEG in connection with dyslexia. Later he moved to the area of social cognition, where his research was focused on framing and especially the simulation of decision-making behavior using a fuzzy-logic expert system. Since the completion of his dissertation, he has been working as a clinical psychologist with developmentally delayed children. Email: christian.wiener@gmx.at . Kaycee J. Wilson (" Decision Trees with Single and Multiple Interval-Valued Objectives ") completed M.S. and B.S. degrees in the School of Industrial and Systems Engineering at the University of Oklahoma in 2012 and 2010, respectively. Her primary interests lie in healthcare operations and reliability-based decision making, and she holds a National Science Foundation Graduate Research Fellowship. Email: kaycee.j.wilson-1@ou.edu . George Wu (" From the Editors: Brainstorming, Multiplicative Utilities, Partial Information on Probabilities or Outcomes, and Regulatory Focus ") has been on the faculty of the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business since September 1997. His degrees include an A.B. (applied mathematics, 1985), an S.M. (applied mathematics, 1987), and a Ph.D. (decision sciences, 1991), all from Harvard University. Prior to joining the faculty at the University of Chicago, Professor Wu was on the faculty at Harvard Business School. Professor Wu worked as a decision analyst at Procter & Gamble prior to starting graduate school. His research interests include descriptive and prescriptive aspects of decision making, in particular decision making involving risk; cognitive biases in bargaining and negotiation; and managerial and organizational decision making. Professor Wu is a coordinating editor for Theory and Decision, an advisory editor for Journal of Risk and Uncertainty, on the editorial boards of Decision Analysis (associate editor) and the Journal of Behavioral Decision Making, and a former department editor of Management Science. Email: wu@chicagobooth.edu .

Transcript of interview with Francis Dubois about his experience in the U.S. Army Air Service (later the United States Army Air Corps) during World War I. He discusses his experiences during basic training, the war, being shipped to England and Ireland, and problems after the war with re-assimilation. He also discusses his opinions on subsequent wars and treatment of veterans. ; WWI Transcriptions Francis Dubois Transcriber: John Pino Date Started: 2/28/18 (Interview Begins) Fred Holder (Interviewer): This interview is taking place in the home of Mr. Francis Dubois, and I was wondering how old were you when you entered the service? Francis Dubois (Interviewee): 21 years old. Holder: And did you live in Fitchburg? Dubois: In Fitchburg, I lived on 48 Main St. at the time. Holder: What branch of service did you enter? The Army? Dubois: I was in the signal corps, forerunner of the air corps. I was in the aviation section of the signal corps. Holder: You live in Fitchburg all your life? Dubois: Born and brought up here. Holder: Were you drafted or did you volunteer? Dubois: I volunteered. Holder: When you entered the service, what did you think, you know, did it turn out to be what you expected? Dubois: Well I didn't know what to expect so I wasn't disappointed or disillusioned either. Either way, I just accepted it as it came. Holder: What was your family's attitude what was your parents' feelings about you going off to the war? Dubois: To be frank with you I don't know what their attitude might have been, I did not consult with them. I merely enlisted and that was it. Holder: Where'd you do your basic training? Dubois: Basic training was down in Waco, Texas, 3 months down there. Holder: What kind of- what did it consist of mostly? Dubois: Well drilling, that was entirely drilling. In the mud fields down there. Holder: What'd you do before the war? Dubois: I was in business at 748 Main St. as a photographer. Holder: And when you came back did you go back into photography? Dubois: I went back into photography. Holder: When you were um, when you went into the service, you went in as a private obviously, what was the pay like then? (Dubois and a person in the background start laughing) Dubois: Well I was fortunate, I got in when the pay was raised from 15 to 30$ for private. Holder: Is that a month? Dubois: That's a month, and there was a 10% increase if you served overseas. Holder: Did you serve overseas? Dubois: I did. Holder: Where sir? Dubois: From April to December, I went to England and Ireland. I did not get to France. Holder: When you went overseas, did you go over in the big transports? Dubois: I went over in an English ship, the Armadale Cassilan. It was a converted cruiser. Holder: When you um, when you were in England, what was the feelings of the people towards you? Dubois: When we got there it was very poor. They complained that we came over there after the war had been lost (intense depression and nihilism felt in England?). Holder: When was that? Dubois: In April (1917?). Holder: As you were there, over time did peoples' impressions improve? Dubois: What I told these people is "just wait a few months and see!" (Laughter) Dubois: "And by August things will turn and change." Holder: What rank were you by the time you were overseas, were you still a private? Dubois: No I was a corporal, that was as high as I got. Holder: That's as high as you got. How long were you in the service? Dubois: A year and 3 days. Holder: What type of food did you have when you were overseas? Dubois: In England well… not too hot, not too good. Our best meal over there was New Zealand rabbits. (Laughter) Dubois: And this may sound corny to you but uh, we would scrape the maggots off of them before we ate them. Holder: (Disgusted groan) (Man laughing in background) Dubois: Well, before we cooked them and ate them let me put it that way. In their raw state we scraped them first. Holder (somewhat bewildered by the previous conversation): Umm… The equipment that you were supplied with was it good? Dubois: Uhh, the "equipment?" What do you mean the "equipment?" Holder: Umm, well, like during your basic training were the rifles more or less new or were they old or the uniforms? Things of this nature. Dubois: The uniforms were alright, they were woolen uniforms. But as far as equipment or rifles and armaments go, I had a gun strapped to my waist for 48 hours. Two 24 hour stretches and I handled a rifle for about 30 seconds. Never drilled with a rifle. Holder: Now umm, your officers, how did they treat you? Dubois: Hm? Holder: The officers, how did they treat you sir? Dubois: We had American officers, they were alright. Holder: How did you feel towards them? Dubois: They were there and they used me alright so I can't complain. (Chuckles in background) Holder (chortling): You were one of the lucky ones I guess. Before you went overseas and you didn't enlist in the war what did you think you were going to fight for? Dubois: Well to put down the Kaiser (Kaiser Wilhelm II, emperor of Imperial Germany). And that was about it. To put an end to his uhh, well his aggressiveness. Holder: What was your view, well, how did you feel towards the German people? Was there animosity built up or? Dubois: Well, I can't say that I held any animosity toward them. Any more than I suppose they held for the American people. Holder: Now how about um… you said you didn't make it to France, did you meet any French officers maybe in England or any in Ireland? Dubois: No, I didn't meet any of em', but I was informed that had it lasted two weeks longer; I would have been in France. Holder: Um, when you came back- Dubois: I went to Ireland before I came back I went to Ireland from England. Holder: Did you like the Irish people better than the English? Dubois: Oh it was great over there! We could do anything and get away with anything! (Laughter) Dubois: The food was great over there! Good meat and everything else! Holder: What'd you do in Ireland? Dubois: I was training there also, continued training they tried to make and airplane mechanic out of me. But I am not mechanically inclined, but they said "You're a mechanic," so I was a mechanic! Of sorts… (Laughter) Holder: Were you married during this time? Dubois: No I was single. I wasn't married until 2 years after I got back. Holder: Did you know the missus before you married here? Dubois: This is the missus (gestures over to his wife, who starts chuckling), she was a lady friend at that time. Holder: What was her feelings towards you being overseas? Dubois: I dunno, she never told me! (Dubois and his wife laugh) She could answer that for herself! Holder: Um, when you came back, what was the attitude of people upon your return? Were you a conquering hero or were they just happy to see you back or? Dubois: We received a nice welcome in New York harbor. They had all the fireboats squirtin' water up, I dunno how high but uh, a great welcome back. The only thing is that when you try to get back to where you were when you left. Assume the role that you have been in when you left, it was not so nice. You were a great guy when you went, but you were one of those fellas when you come back. Try to assume your place. Holder: Did you have trouble getting back to your photographer's job when you got back or things of this nature? Dubois: Uhh, slightly. Slightly. Holder: How about when you came back uhh, to Fitchburg and tried to set up your photography and- Dubois: Well that's what I'm talking about. Holder: Did the veterans' office help you at all? Dubois: The veterans were alright towards me but the uhh, competition I had left behind, they weren't so nice. They expected me to stay over there. Holder: So um, when you did come back though, the veterans' office at that time did they help you out in perhaps- Dubois: Well in WWI, the veterans didn't get much help from the government (important point) or anything else. Holder: You didn't receive your bonuses, how did you feel about that? Dubois: I uhh, I received a bonus… uhh. I forget how many years it was after I was discharged. But I did get a bonus. Holder: At the time you were supposed to get it, I dunno, very soon afterwards. How did you feel when you didn't get them, like a number of veterans didn't when they marched on Washington? (reference to the Bonus Army, when 4,000 disgruntled WWI veterans marched on Washington in 1932 to get their promised bonus in the immediate aftermath of the war) Dubois: We didn't anticipate we were gonna get em' so we weren't disappointed. Holder: So you weren't very surprised when you didn't get it after all. Dubois: No. Holder: What other benefits did you receive from the service? Dubois: What benefits? Holder: Yeah. Dubois: Well I dunno I think it toughened my body a little bit. It taught me a lot of things, I met a lot of different people. And I think that uhh, that's about what I got out of it. Holder: Now what kind of benefits did you get from say umm, in a monetary way from the government after you got out? Dubois: Oh I didn't… (Dubois thinks for a moment) I think we were given on discharge a ticket home and $60. Now I won't swear to the $60, I'm not too sure about it now. But afterwards I did get $950 when they paid the bonus. Holder: Um, in World War II did you see any service there sir? Dubois: World War II I was on the draft board in Fitchburg. Holder (sarcastically): Ehh that must have been a fun job. (Dubois wife laughs) Dubois: It was a good job. Holder: Was that more difficult than actually going over? Dubois: Much more, much more abuse too. And, it was an expense to anybody that was on the draft board. You paid for your own expenses, your own transportation. They gave you about a gallon of gas a month which you had to pay for, to get to and from the meetings. And that's about it. Holder: Now your chapter of the local legion, when did you join that organization? Dubois: I joined the American legion in 1919. And in 1948 I started the Cloygon(?) post 429. As first commander, I have been in office for quite a few years. I've been on the executive board, I've been the finance officer. Then I've pulled out for a while and now I'm back in again. Holder: What's the role of your organization now? Dubois: Well they try to uhh, induce patriotism. Watch out for the benefits of the veterans, their wives and children, the widows. It's a service organization. (Holder adjusts the microphone) Holder: Um, when you look back on the war, when you went over and everything, did you think it did you a lot of good going overseas like that? Dubois: Going overseas? Holder: Right. Dubois: Well it broadened my perspective of the world and its people. Cause' I met people on their own standing ground so to speak. I met the English in England, I was at camp Naughtyash. And I was at Sheffield airdromes. Holder: Would you ever go overseas again? Dubois: No. Holder: No? Huh. Did you ever meet any of those people overseas, did they come over to the United States? Dubois: There was one couple I met over there and they came to Boston. And I met them in Boston. And they came to Fitchburg once, that's the extent of it. Holder: Now um, when you look back on World War I, and you look back at World War II do you think that World War I really accomplished what you set out to do? Dubois: It's very evident we did not, World War I was supposed to be "the war to end all wars" (very popular phrase at the time of the war, coined by H.G. Wells), and I don't have to tell you any more of what's happened since. Holder: Now does it leave you disillusioned or disheartened or anything of that nature? Dubois: Oh no, that's life, that's the world. We're not all of the same mind so where's there a difference of opinion… sometimes it gets a little. well. a little "belligerent" if you wish. Holder: Umm, when you look back again at World War I, what experience sticks out most in your mind? Dubois: Nothing in particular now, not at this time. It's all in the dim past now all the edges have worn off, there's nothing that stands out now. Holder: When you came back to Fitchburg ya know, the general people, not the competition you said you were having trouble with, the average people, where they very helpful to you? Dubois: They were all nice to me. Except the competition. Holder: Right. Dubois: I can't complain about them. Holder: You're retired now I assume? Dubois: Yes. Holder: Umm, you've lived in Fitchburg all your life, you ever thought you'd like to, go over again? Dubois: Well I have had that thought but uhh, I dunno I like to stay at home now. My traveling days I feel are all behind me. The desire to travel has left me. Holder: Now, again, you know, when you look back at World War I and it was the "war to end all wars" and it failed and then World War II, um, when you look at World War I compared to World War II, does anything stick out in your mind there? Anything at all that you were thinking of? Dubois: Well one thing that does uhh, is the comparison of the treatment of the boys, what they get and what we got. When we got out, you're on your own and that's about it. When the World War II come along, they get all kinds of compensation, they get the education. They want to buy a house, they're helped to do that. Those are the things, the contrast that stands out in my mind. And as yet, the World War I veteran has not got a bonafide pension! You get a disability pension but not a right pension, they never gave it! And 20 years after the Spanish-American War, the Spanish-American War veterans got a pension (interesting, why no pensions for WWI vets? Can't be an issue of time period as pensions existed even before the Great War). An outright pension! World War I are the ones that the government forgot. Holder: Is that- now, Woodrow Wilson was president then and do you hold it against the Democrats that you never got a pension? Dubois: Well I can't say that the Democrats or the Republicans if one is as bad as the other. When it comes to giving it to the veterans, one is as bad as the other. Although I think the Democrats have been a little more liberal. But they've put the lid on too. Holder: Do you think that the American Legion should campaign more actively to get their- Dubois: It's pretty hard I think for them to campaign more actively than they are doing. Holder: What type of things are they doing to try and get it for em'? Dubois: Well they have a lobby in Washington and then there's a lot of literature that's spread around. A lot of the articles you read in the newspaper originate with the American Legion. And also with other veterans' organizations. We're not alone in this. Holder: Now, what do you think about other organizations? Why did you join the American Legion instead of one of the other ones? Dubois: It was the first one that I was able to join when I got out of the service. I did not join the veterans of foreign wars for, well… particular reasons that I didn't like at the time when it was available. But I have since joined the DAV, and I am a member of the Veterans of World War I. I belong to 3 organizations. Holder: Now, are you active in all 3? Dubois: No. Holder: Just the American Legion? Dubois: Just the Legion. Holder: The American Legion is famous for sponsoring things like baseball and baseball teams and what not and things like Flag Day and things of this nature, what other types of things do they do? Dubois: Well there are a lot of things that are not shown on the surface. We sponsor a lot of things, we've got 3 Eagle Scouts coming up, that we sponsor. We pay for their badges and so forth. A school needs a flag, we give it to them. Any new troop that starts, they come to the Legion for a flag or whatever they need. There's donations made to all these… call em' charities if you wish, the Christmas Seals, Easter Seals, you name em' all those things. We contribute to them and we sponsor different things. We have the Sally League coming up in Fitchburg. Where the Cloygon post is going to sponsor the entire league! Not just a part of it. We have sponsored the uhh, Little League at times. But we've discontinued that. We did have a team in the Legion baseball, but due to lack of interest by the players we've discontinued that. Holder: When you were overseas, did any of your friends get sent over into France and actually get wounded? Dubois: Yes, some of them got killed. Holder: Besides the obvious pain and loss, what was your reaction to that? Did it give you any doubts of why you should be there? Dubois: I never gave it any thought. Holder: You never gave it any thought? Dubois: No, I never gave a thought about it. Holder: Were any friends of yours or anybody you happened to know highly decorated? Dubois: Yes, there is one, here in Fitchburg. A fella by the name of Bouchet. He'd been highly decorated. Holder: Now you were not with him when he got the decorations obviously? Dubois: No I was not with him at all in the service. Holder: What was your reaction when you see him compared to you, when he got into the action, did you want to get into the action? Dubois: Its uhh, it's one of the things that you hanker for a little bit when you're in the service. You feel that you're being left out of the show. But, that's the way it was. I never wanted to be in the infantry, that's for sure. And this fella was in the infantry. I was in the aviation part, I had hoped to be an aerial photographer. But, that's the army you know, they put you where they feel like it. So many names down the list and you're that, regardless of what you were doing before, unless you had a lot of political influence, you just went where they sent you. Holder: Now what about when you were being transported overseas on the British ship there, were you worried about the U-boats? Dubois: You always looked out for them but during the last 2 days they were right with us. 2 days out from England, there were 2 U-boats in the pack of transport ships of 13 boats, and we were in the center, and there was a U-boat on each side. On each side of the boat, now at that particular time I had been on watch all night, so I was sleeping down at the bottom of the boat, until they started to throw out depth charges. Then I got up in a hurry like everybody else. We got up on deck hoping to see some action but all we saw was when they throw over the depth charges.

Transcript of an oral history interview with William F. "Bill" Lyons, conducted by Sarah Yahm at his office in Boston, Massachusetts, on 10 March 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Bill Lyons is a member of the Norwich University Class of 1990; his interview includes a discussion of his experiences as an electrical engineering student at Norwich as well as his later educational endeavors and his career as a planner, engineer, and attorney. His military service in Bosnia and Iraq is also a focus of the interview. ; 1 COL William "Bill" Lyons, NU 1990, Oral History Interview March 10, 2015 At his Boston, MA office Interviewed by Sarah Yahm Transcribed by C.T. Haywood, NU '12 March 19, 2015 SY: I am at Bill Lyons' office in Boston. It is March 10? Is that correct? WL: I think so. It's in that range. SY: It's in that range. It's March 10, 2015 and we're going to be doing an oral history interview. So, yeah you were just, you just started telling me before I turned the tape on about how you ended up at Norwich. So how did you end up at Norwich? WL: So when I was about thirteen I decided that I wanted to be in the military, and I wrote a letter to the Marine Corps asking them when I could enlist. And they informed me that I'd have to wait until I was eighteen but they encouraged me to apply for service academies and for scholarships. So I did. I actually started the process to attend the Naval Academy. I was Barney Frank's nominee in 1986 to attend the Naval Academy. But I did not pass the physical, because I have a lazy left eye and color blindness. So that was traumatic in that that particular dream was not gonna come to fruition. And so it just so happened that two doors down from us on my home street was guy named Wally Burke, who's Class of '86 [siren in background] and Skull and Swords and Honor Committee and all that stuff. And Wally's dad and my dad were friends. Wally's dad was a cop and my father was a firefighter and so my father told me about Norwich, but he simultaneously discouraged me because he really didn't want me to be in the military. SY: Hold on one sec— WL: Sure thing. SY: Because I just realized, oops, that I have my questions right over here. WL: Okay. SY: Um so why didn't you dad want you to be in the military? WL: My father was in the Army from 1958 to 1960. He left the Army early. He got a compassionate discharge because his father was in a TB hospital here in Boston. And my father was in Germany at the time and his older brother was in the Army in Germany, and so one of the boys needed to come home to look after the family. And my father quickly responded to that call. Being a city boy he thought all the outdoorsmanship was really not up his alley. And he was a very disciplined, disciplined man but didn't like the constriction of military life so he took the opportunity to come home early so he only served about eighteen months. And it's not so much that he didn't want me to be in the military, he just thought that he didn't like it so I wouldn't like it and um— SY: Did he just like not being told what to do? 2 WL: Yeah I think that's part of it. He ended up raising his most of his siblings, he was a very independent minded person. So he, he was not accustomed to being directed. He was the director. So he was a private and I think he got busted twice in rank from PFC down to private, PFC to private so that should be some indicator of the fact the life wasn't for him. So, ah in the summer of, between my junior and senior year I only applied to one school. I applied to Norwich because having not having the opportunity to go to the Naval Academy I thought Norwich was a great, um, a great opportunity for me to do what I needed to do. And as I was mentioning I was a, awful awful teenager. SY: Oh come on give me some details. How were you awful? WL: I got into a lot of trouble. I was actually, I was a decent student, studying came too easy for me so I never really learned how to study and I got great grades without doing any work. I worked full time after school and on weekends I was the director of custodial services for a florist bran--chain here in Massachusetts. And because I was working full time I had a lot of money and I was actually making more money than my mother who was working full time at the phone company at the time [car beeps]. And that lead to trouble. I was drinking too much, spending too much time not focused on my studies. I totaled three cars my senior year, one of them was an outright explosion, blew my father's brand new station wagon up. So at the end of my senior year my dad had pretty much had it. But the good news is early, I had applied early admission to Norwich and I got in early. So in November of my senior year I already knew I was all set. And had a good side - I knew I was in. And had a bad side because I knew I didn't have to try anymore so it cut both ways. But I knew that Norwich was the right place for me and um… SY: Had you gone up and visited? WL: I had, I went up with my dad for a brief visit. SY: And what was your impression? WL: You know it's kind of hard to remember, but I remember saying to myself, "This is what I'm meant to do." My father on the other hand was like, "Oooh I don't know" [laughs]. SY: So I wonder about that. So what was your dream, your vision of what being in the military was gonna be like? WL: So another little nitnoid fact- I had applied for a Marine Corps NROTC scholarship and I was notified that I was a recipient, and then about two weeks before school started in August of '85, no I'm sorry August of '86, I was notified that I, they had made a mistake and that the scholarship was no longer available because of my eyesight. So I was like, "You already knew that because you screened me out of the Naval Academy." But nevertheless my father, God bless him, he came up with the cash to pay for tuition. And so it, it just all came together. It really came together quickly and the rest is kinda history. I mean I settled in, I wanted at the time to be a Navy officer and after I took two years of Navy ROTC, and then after realizing there was no way in heck I was ever gonna get a Navy commission I switched to Army ROTC. And they said, "You want to commission? Sure you can have a commission." 3 SY: They were like, "We don't care about that lazy eye." WL: Yeah, so they gave me a contract in February of my junior year and gave me credit for my Navy ROTC. And at that time I was turned off the active duty thing. I had kind of seen it and done it at Norwich and didn't feel the need to do more. So I signed a Guaranteed Reserve Forces Duty commission, and took a commission in the Army Reserve. There was also a way for me to guarantee myself military intelligence as a branch because if you're in a military intelligence reserve unit you automatically get a military intelligence commission which is what I wanted. So that part came together quite nicely. The summer between junior and senior year I actually got, of course I went to the Advanced Camp for ROTC, but actually get to go Airborne School for three weeks and that was a, it was a life altering time just learning, learning to redefine what I thought my limits were. Obviously I learned a lot more about what I was capable of doing and that was a, that was a really good experience for me. And I came back to school ready, you know, I was like, "You know what, I gotta finish this school thing up and get my commission and drive on with life," so. [sound of something falling] [laughs]. SY: Sorry. Dropping things. Yeah. So let's rewind a little bit and ask you about being a Rook. Do you remember your first, do you remember your first day? Do you remember the first? WL: I do, yeah, it's funny I showed up for my first day, I had long, blonde hair because I worked in the outdoors all summer and my hair gets kinda blondish in the summer. And I hadn't had my haircut since the beginning of my senior year in high school so it was just about a year since my hair had been cut. Intentionally, you know, I was like rebelling. And my arm was in a sling. I had actually just had been in an accident. I was body surfing off of Singing Beach in the North Shore of Massachusetts, and there was a hurricane at sea. It was beautiful on the beach but there was a hurricane at sea, the waves were just huge. So I was body surfing and a wave picked me up and threw me on the beach and dislocated my shoulder. So that was maybe two weeks before school started. So I showed up with my arm in a sling and my bleach blonde hair and long hair, so I was instantly labeled "surfer boy," which really wasn't apt for me but that's all they knew was a snap shot in time. And I remember the, they challenged me to do pushups with my arm in the sling. And I was in much, much better shape than I am today and I actually did one-armed pushups and that was like the instant challenge I needed to be able to push back. And so I kinda got their instant respect because I dropped and started doing one-armed pushups. And so that was an interesting time, you know, I did everything I could to fit in but you know running was a real challenge with a arm in a sling, so. But I adapted and it was fun. SY: Did they make any exceptions for you because your arm was in a sling? WL: Yeah, you know they were all like, "Oh you don't have to do this now," and I was like, "I just want to fit in. I want to, I don't want to be the kid that's off to the side, you know, getting special treatment." So I worked really hard to fit in. There were obvious, I couldn't do sit ups so that was kind of out of the question. So, but did everything I could to fit in. SY: Do you remember being scared? 4 WL: You know I--scared is kind of the wrong word in the sense that it was more bewildering like trying to take it all in and understand because people are barking at me from every direction and I'm sure they do that now. All the barking is intended to have that bewildering effect, and it was very effective on me and I was struggling just to focus on what was important and who seemed to be the person that was in charge so I could follow their instructions. And I don't ever remember being fearful in the sense of, you know for life and limb, more just alarmed that I had to keep up with this dizzying pace of things so that I didn't fall behind. Because I had seen kids fall behind and then they get targeted, and then when they get targeted they kind of get drummed out and I didn't want to be that person, so. It was all I could do to just make sure that I wasn't the person getting picked on. SY: So something I've been thinking about, you know not somebody who has a military background, I've been reading a little bit about comparative military training like in, you know in Scandinavia and various different places. So to what degree do you think the Rook training and that sort of boot camp model really does help you when you are in the field later? How much is a residue from sort of previous understandings and how much is it really what's needed? WL: Yeah, I'm a very strong believer in a rigorous Rookdom, and as near as I can tell it's gotten more rigorous. I know they have much more stringent physical fitness standards than we had, and its substantially longer - Rookdom is substantially longer, or at least unrecognized Rookdom is substantially longer. For me I thought it was critical because it really--the basic training model is really about tearing you down so that everybody is more or less equal in terms of their ego and their psyche and and all of the individuality, you know it's all designed to strip all that off and then build you back up in the model that they want you to be in. I thought Norwich was incredibly effective at that, very, very effective. And I think reflecting on that it was really important to me, like I had some really good core values that my father and mother inculcated into me - honesty, integrity, and all those. Hard work, I had a very hard work ethic. And that was all there but it wasn't completely formed. And so my, my ex—my Rook year experience at Norwich was they tore me down to that base level and figured out how to build on it and make it all fit together with my individual personality, but in a fairly structured way. And I think that that, personally I think that made all the difference in my success in life because it preserved my work ethic, it preserved my core values, and then showed me how to take those characteristics and use those to my advantage in business and in the military and in all facets of life, really. So I give Norwich a lot of credit for making me the man that I am. SY: Yeah, interesting. Do you remember sort of a high and a low of your time at Norwich? WL: Yes. So I'll give you the low. I discovered my entire Navy ROTC class cheating on a test. They were in the barracks. I walked into a room, they had the quiz that I had just taken and they were kibitzing about the answers on the quiz. And I said, "Guys, I'm not gonna say anything, but go back, give them the test and tell them you need a different test So that everything's good." And they didn't do it and I, I remember the gut wrenching decision to tell the instructor. And the instructor, I remember him vividly, a guy named Lieutenant Fricke, he said, "Well I didn't see it and I don't, there's no, nothing to suggest that it actually happened other than you." And I said, "Well, I'm telling you it happened." And he said, "Well in the absence of something else to 5 corroborate that there's nothing I intend to do about it." And so I complained to the school. I actually didn't, someday I can dig up all the letters I wrote to President Todd and to Tim Donovan, who I've since become quite friendly with, and I complained pretty vocally. I wrote a letter to the Guidon, complaining that the school wouldn't take action on this and how contradictory to the school's value it was. And that was a very troubling time, that was my junior year I believe. It was a very troubling time for me, I just felt that Norwich didn't rise to the occasion to seize an opportunity to, to live its values and… SY: And what about your peers? Did, they knew you had reported them? WL: Ah you know, obviously a lot of heartache with some of my peers. To this day some of them probably wouldn't say hello to me. I'm okay with that. It's, you know, it is what it is and they are who they are, and I'd rather pick friends that are, share my values. SY: And you acted with integrity so if they can't handle that they can't handle that, yeah. WL: Yeah. The friends that I had are still my friends and so, you know, they got it, they were like, "You did the right thing, so hold your head high and be proud of what you did," so. SY: You know I see that today with students, that they seem torn between two things that Norwich teaches - one is the loyalty to the Corps, right? WL: Yeah. SY: And the other is this idea of sticking up for what's right even if pushes against the group and I'm wondering, that's a really great illustration of that conflict. WL: Absolutely. SY: Did you notice any other conflicts like that? Any other people struggling with that? Did you have other incidents like that? WL: I can't point to any. You now there were rumored to be all kinds of activities on campus that were, were in one sense these incredible examples of loyalty - we'll use the Knight Riders as an example, right, this mythical organization that supposedly existed. And then, so they're loyal to each other, and supposedly to the University, and allegedly worked to the betterment of the University, at least in their own minds. And then of course there's the things that they were accused of doing that some would say that they did do in terms of beating people up that didn't fulfill the you know the model cadet role. And so you know I think that's another example of it. I didn't personally witness any of that, but I heard plenty of the, we call it the rumint, you know rumor intelligence about that sort of thing. I didn't, I have to say in my four years at Norwich I didn't really indulge in that much, so it wasn't an important part of my experience. But I think that in any organization, the Army is an excellent example, there are constant, there's constant tension between loyalty to your brothers and to your service and the integrity of doing the right thing all the time. And, you know, the history of the Army is rife with people that make wrong decisions for the right reasons, if you want to say it that way. And so, you know, it's very, very hard to straddle very important values that span or are in that dynamic tension. And that's a really good example of it. 6 SY Yeah and I think, I'm gonna sort of ask you about that as we go through and talk about your military career when you leave Norwich that theme, because the citizen soldier seems to me be about that, that conflict, right? Especially because you have the Corps and then you a liberal arts education, right? And I talk to professors all the time who are like, "And I'm teaching them critical thinking and they're also learning how to follow orders. And sometimes they don't know in my class that they're allowed to disagree." You know it's like a different mentality, yeah. Okay, so your senior year you get commissioned by the Army? WL: Yes. So that was probably the highlight and I, obviously you would hope that would be a highlight is graduation, commissioning, I think just prior to that I found out that I got an A on my senior project, and that was a huge milestone for me. My, my early years at Norwich were marked by severe underperformance academically. I finished my freshman year at a 1.8. SY: Why do you think? WL: I failed Calc I. That is really bad for Electrical Engineering students [laughs]. So I had to retake Calc I over the summer, but not taking Calc II in my second half of my freshman year prevented me from taking Physics I, and it had a huge snowball effect. So I ended up graduating from Norwich with a 2.32 grade point average which was, I think, the third worst in my class, or it's in that range. [clears throat] My roommate happened to be lower than me so there was at least one lower than me. SY: That's always nice [laughs]. WL He's still still one of my best friends. But the fact that I managed - first of all had to catch up. So I ended up, there was one semester I took 22 credits just to get back on track because I came home from my freshman year and I told my dad that, "I think I need to change majors. This electrical engineering thing, I'm, it's not working out for me." And he said, "I'm paying for the next three years. You can finish up in the next three years. Your best chance of doing that is to stay in electrical engineering. So go back to school and get it done." So I did. I really wanted to change to diplomacy, and it didn't work that way. So I really had to catch up, I really did take a huge course load which of course, you know all my grades suffered when I was spreading myself so thin and trying to do Corps activities, et cetera. SY: Do you think it was also you didn't have to learn study skills in high school? WL: Yeah oh yeah, definitely. I mean Calc I, I was totally unprepared for the academic rigor of Calc I. Just totally not prepared for that, and it showed. So I did, I did the whole catch up thing and so by senior year I actually had a relatively normal course load again. And the fact that I, I think I got a 3.1 my senior year, to imagine that 3.1 still only got me to a 2.32 overall [laughs] should tell you something. But the fact that I got an A on my senior project was just a moral victory for me. And then so you know the crowning achievement of course was commissioning and graduation and everything that went with that. I was only the third person in my father's extended huge Irish family to ever get a college degree at that point. SY: So was your family ecstatic? 7 WL: Yeah, so the whole clan descended on Northfield. My father had eleven sisters and brothers of which one had passed by then, so everybody else descended on Northfield. They rented like a whole slew of condos over at Suagrbush and it turned out to be like a weeklong celebration. It was really quite something um… SY: That's awesome. And these are all like working class Boston cops and firefighters? WL: Yeah so my dad grew up in Roxbury and he was a firefighter. He ended up in Natick. He was an outlier, he actually moved all the way out to Natick at the time. One of my uncles was a Boston firefighter; another one was teamster, he drove an oil truck; another one owned a cleaning business. So they were working class people. Proud people. And my father was a very, very bright man but he decided he wasn't gonna go to college so that others could. That was really his decision. And so it was, it was you know it was a celebration of kind of that, "Well finally somebody's gonna move up the middle class," type of thing. So it was great, it was a lot of fun. SY: Yeah, and then what'd you do right afterwards? WL: So my, my orders to my military intelligence officer basic course weren't, didn't even exist yet. I got commissioned and went back into my Army Reserve unit but I had to do my officer basic course, and the next available slot was the following February. So I worked the summer at the tent company where I had been working summers, and then that job ended because the summer ended, and then I went back to work for the florist that I had worked at all through high school. And I worked there until February and then I, so that was kind of interesting working as a electrical engineer as a custodian at a florist company. And then I went to my officer basic course in Fort Huachuca, Arizona for six months. And that just so happened to coincide with the kick off for the Gulf War. So I was, you know, sitting in classes in Arizona trying desperately to try and get released so I could go to the war which is, you know, that's, it was the big show, who knows if there's ever gonna be another one, you know that sort of thing. SY: Oh back in the days when we thought there were no more wars. WL: Yes, right, Cold War was over and the Gulf War was the big show and— SY: Right that was gonna be it, the end. WL: So yeah, so of course they weren't gonna release me because I needed my officer basic course before they released me and then by the time the course was over it was all over but the crying, so. It was such a fast war. SY: And did you know anything about, I mean, did you know about Iraq at that time? Did you know anything about Kuwait? Did you know anything about Saddam? Had that been something you'd gotten at Norwich? Like that geopolitical understanding? WL: Yeah I had no geopolitical understanding from my time at Norwich. I did get a lot of that in the reserves and at the officer basic course. So I had a very, very solid footing on the geopolitical issues kind of as it was happening, I suppose you'd say, but definitely not while I was at Norwich. I was very, I had you know my, my ROTC unit, I was the first sergeant of the 8 freshman company when I was there. And I had no Corps responsibilities, and I had my electrical engineering curriculum. I was the president of IEEE, the Institute of Electrical Electronics Engineers, the student chapter, so nothing like picking the kid with the lowest cume in your class to be president of the social club. So that really took up my time and ah, there really wasn't a lot of time for much else. SY: Yeah that makes sense. Okay so you're all ready to go and the wars over. WL: Yup. SY: So what do you do instead? WL: So I came home and that was probably a lifetime low point. The economy in late '91 was absolutely atrocious. It was awful. No jobs anywhere. I went on so many attempted job interviews, you know just showing up at companies and filling out an application. And all the tech companies all over New England, and there was just nothing. And I ended up, let's see I sold pots and pans for a little while. I worked in a call center for a little while, and I was pumping gas for five dollars an hour in April of '92, so this was just about two years after graduation, when a good friend of my dad's drove into the gas station where I was pumping gas. It just so happened that the guy that owned the gas station was a selectman and I had run his campaign because my father was very active in town politics, and the guy that pulled in was a very good friend of the gas station owner and my dad. And at the time he was the Deputy Commissioner of Massachusetts Highway Department. And so he looked at me and he said, "Bill, why are you pumping gas? Don't you have an electrical engineering degree?" I said, "Yup. But there's just no jobs." And he said, "Well show up on Monday, you'll have a job." And I was like, "Show up where?" [laughs] He said, "Show up at 10 Park Plaza, that's where the Highway Department is. I'm sure we could use an electrical engineer." So that was my big break. I ended going to work for the Highway Department for two and a half years, and found a home and a career in an industry that I'm, I've been very fortunate to grow up in. And, you know its proof positive that family and your connections are as important as what you know. And that certainly worked to my advantage. SY: Yeah absolutely, and then you gone on, you've got like a gazillion degrees. WL: [both laugh] Well I'm, despite my undergraduate experience I've really come to appreciate learning and growing intellectually. So I've pretty much been in school ever since I graduated in one capacity or another with short breaks. There was my officer basic course, then my advanced course, and then after that you go to the Combined Arms and Services Staff School. And sprinkled throughout there I took some graduate classes at Northeastern, at UMASS Lowell, and then I completed the Command and General Staff College. And I really got bit by the bug, I decided in 1999 that I wanted to go to law school. And I'd always dreamed of going to law school when I was at Norwich but I, with a cume of 2.32 it was highly unlikely that I was gonna get in. SY: Well you also didn't have time to take classes that weren't electrical engineering classes.9 WL: That's true that's true. So, and and I set out to be a patent lawyer to utilize my technical background in the field of law. And in the '90s I worked for a consulting firm called HTSD and they did a lot of Wal Mart related work - site planning and transportation planning, traffic engineering. And I really found a niche presenting to local planning boards. And it just so happened I was elected to my hometown's planning board from '94 to '97, I think. And so I found, kind of found a home, I found a comfort zone with the planning board process. And I was attending a lot of planning board hearings and there would be a big high falutin' downtown Boston lawyer, and there would be a local planning lawyer, and then they'd put me out because I was articulate and could present technical information in a way that lay people could understand it. And I was at that time billing out at about 120 dollars an hour and the [clears throat] two downtown, the two lawyers were well above that, and they just sat there and listened. And so it kind of occurred to me, I'm like, you know, "I can sit there and listen for a lot more money and be happy" [laughs]. So I really decided in my mind that I wanted to go to law school. And so in '99 I left the consulting firm and I went to work for the City of Somerville as the traffic and parking director and worked in that capacity directly for the mayor. And I was in her office one day, at that time I was, I don't know, thirty-one, and she said, "Bill, it's pretty clear to me you don't want to be traffic engineer the rest of your life. You've good political skills, and you've good communication skills, what do you really want to do?" and I said, "Well I really want to go to law school but I don't think I can get in. I have an application pending at Suffolk, you know I just don't have the grades. I did okay on the LSAT." And so she said, "Sit right there." So she went into her private office and then she came out and she said, "You're gonna get a letter of acceptance in three days. Don't embarrass me." So she pulled a string, again it's who you know not necessarily what you know, and I went to law school. It actually took me seven years to graduate because I deployed twice. I deployed in 2001 to Bosnia, and then 2003 to Iraq, and so uh I had to take military leaves of absence for those two. The school was great about it, but. So in 2007, believe it or not, I finally completed the law school program at night. And like I said, you know I've been very, very oriented towards continuing my academic interests ever since then. I did the Joint Forces Staff College, and I did the Army War College, and I did - of course the War College is a master's degree producing program. And then the, I did the master's in transportation and urban systems at North Dakota State University. So it's fun. SY: You have a lot of degrees. WL: Its fun. I enjoy it so you know it's something that I feel incomplete if I'm not constantly studying, learning something. SY: I mean you're preaching to the choir, I have two master's degrees and am gonna go for a third at some point. WL: There you go. SY: I hear you. So let's go back, let's rewind actually, and let's go back to your deployments. WL: Okay. SY: So it's 2001. 10 WL: Yup. SY: So can you tell me that story? WL: Sure, in December of 1999 I was alerted that I was gonna get mobilized. Is that right? No, December of 2000 I was alerted that I was gonna get mobilized for Bosnia rotation. And at this time it was strictly a peacekeeping mission and there were actually several opportunities for me to jump off that bandwagon. But once I was starting to go down the path I was like, you know, "I've spent my entire time in the Reserve wanting to someday get mobilized. And here I am, you know, I have an opportunity to get off the train and I just really wanted to fulfill that particular aspect of my life and go on a mobilization." SY: Yeah, what's the desire to mobilize? What was the…? WL: Well I think on several levels. One is you know you get so invested in all that training. I mean if there's one thing the Army is particularly good at is training, constantly training and it's a huge investment. And I felt like I just wanted to realize the return on that investment, on some level. I also felt like the citizen soldier mantra of Alden Partridge was kind of a river running through that whole thing, because at the time the active Army was trying to turn that mission over to the Reserve and National Guard, and it just seemed to me a very logical extension of everything that had been my life to that point. You know it was a peacekeeping mission, it wasn't a combat mission. I had, you know, I don't know how much time you've been in Somerville, it's a tough town so one could say some of what I did there is peacekeeping. And it was, you know, it was it was nation building it was community building and to me that felt very satisfying, it felt like a good match for everything that I had to offer at that time. And I just really wanted to see that through. SY: Yeah. WL: So we mobilized in August of 2001. So there was a nine month buildup of this constantly training and repetitive drills and paperwork. SY: And what was peacekeeping, I mean obviously the mission became different, but what was peacekeeping gonna look like? WL: Peacekeeping was supposed to be having a continuous presence in the communities that had been torn apart by the civil war. In part to provide a buffer between the warring factions, but perhaps more importantly to set the example of how to do things right, to provide that beacon of democracy and hope and and and what, you know, the model of western democracy should look like. So a lot of it was anticipated to be monitoring elections, and providing a presence in the towns so that there was no opportunity for the warring factions to engage in what could be provocative. SY: Weapons or no weapons? WL: Um weapons. SY: Weapons. 11 WL: Yup and there wasn't, it wasn't expected you'd need the weapons and not to split hairs but the Army calls that form of peacekeeping peace enforcement, whereas true peacekeeping is without weapons. And so you can argue one way or the other, you know, what the intended mission was. NATO calls it peacekeeping, we were calling it peace enforcement, but it's because we had weapons. So we mobilize in August. We went to Fort Bragg for a couple weeks to train up with our active duty counterparts, got on a plane on September 10, flew from Fort Bragg to Fort Drum, picked up a whole bunch of soldiers at Fort Drum, and then flew from Fort Drum to Ireland, and then landed in Ireland. And then when we took off from Ireland and flew to Tuzla Main, which is the airfield at the Eagle Base, in that time the attacks in 9/11 occurred. So we landed at Eagle Base, and the whole plane cheered [laughs] because it was the culmination of literally ten months of training. We're like, "Yes, we finally made it. " There was on our plane a whole bunch of reservists from New York, New York City in particular. So when we coasted to the end of the runway we all expected to get off fairly quickly and nothing was happening. So we were all kind of bewildered, you know. And then the post command sergeant major, we didn't know he was the command sergeant major at the time, but the post command sergeant major came on the plane and he said, "I regret to inform of what's taken place in the United States. And gentlemen, ladies, the United States is at war and stand by for further instructions." So me and a bunch of my friends on the plane we were, you know, we kind of concluded in our minds that this was a drill. The Army's prone to coming up with these ridiculous scenarios and saying, "Okay you have one hour to brief the commander on what you would do under these circumstances." So, you know, we're all huddling, "What do we do, you know, what do you think we should do?" And we really had resolved in our minds that it was an exercise. And then not too long after that junior enlisted guy came on the plane and he said, "Okay, we really don't know what's going on in the world but we're in a predominately Muslim country. Everybody is gonna get their ammunition basic load as they get off the plane, and stand by for further instructions. Most of you guys are standing post until all this gets sorted out." So right then we knew it was no kidding. So the kids that were from New York City on the plane were obviously were very concerned about their families, and there were lines set up to use the very few phone lines on base. SY: Hey and we're going. WL: Excellent. SY: Look at that. Okay I feel good about that. Here we go. Okay so you're in the intel business, the mission is changing. WL: The mission changed. My job was to be the requirements manager, which is to determine what things get collected on. And then there are different means of collection. There's foot patrols, which was the vast majority of our intelligence collection. We had aerial intelligence platforms, and signals intelligence platforms, and various other means of intelligence collection. But my job was to figure out which asset would collect against which requirement, and then my boss who was the collections manager, would task out all those tasks to the various subordinate elements. And, you know, I was anticipating that my job would be mostly collecting about economic intelligence, political intelligence, issues related to governance. And it turned out that 12 there was still some aspect of that, but I really had two tasks: one was to help catch persons indicted for war crimes, which was our exit strategy to catch the we call them PIFWCs (Persons Indicted for War Crimes), PFWCs. So one job was to try and track those folks down so they could be captured by Special Forces, and the other job was to do directed patrols in neighborhoods and areas that were the more conservative and known extremist-view Muslim groups. So when Bosnia had its civil war a lot of freedom fighters actually came from the Middle East and from Northern Africa to Bosnia and settled there, married into the community, and so those communities were obviously of great concern to us at the time because we really didn't know what exactly was gonna occur. So that was, that took up a lot of time. SY: And what [coughs] what did you end up concluding about those communities? WL: Um so some, there was some activity there that was responded to appropriately. I was tangentially involved in the, the detention of the Sarajevo group that was trying to break into to U.S. Embassy. And that group actually ended up in GTMO so I was partially involved in the intelligence lead up to that particular operation. And I think that's probably the biggest operation that we were involved in. We were involved in other couple other operations and then on the other side I was very involved in the PIFWC hunting, which I thought was probably one of more rewarding parts of my time there. SY: Yeah I would imagine. Yeah and so what ended up, did you capture some people? WL: Ah yes, whose names they are anymore I can't remember. SY: Right, unless it's Milosevic, I won't remember either. WL: No, we were—the guy that we were really hunting was Radovan Karadžić and we didn't catch him. The French dimed us out and he escaped because the French gave him a heads up. SY: Huh, why they do that? WL: Um, that's a really good question. The French were very sympathetic to the Serbs, and I don't really know why that was but they had a very sympathetic posture towards the Serbs in the conflict. So they caught the guy on his cell phone telling Karadžić to escape and so he made a very speedy exit out of Bosnia. But from that point forward there was some very deep soul searching about who we shared intelligence with and that was a pretty tough thing to lose out on, you know. SY: Hm. You don't think of the French being people U.S. intelligence has to watch out for. WL: Yeah well I mean they're, they're, you know on a geopolitical level they are actually one of our biggest adversaries from a spying point of view. SY: Really? WL: Yeah. SY: Fascinating. WL: Yeah there's all kinds of open source documents on that you can read about [laughs]. 13 SY: Okay I'll go educate myself about that later. Um okay, so that's Bosnia and then there's Iraq. That's 2003. WL: Yeah so I was home for 10 months and the Iraq War was spinning up, and one of my closest friends who was my boss in Bosnia called me up and said, "Bill, we're putting together the band. We're going back, we're going back on active duty. Do you want to come?" And I said, "Well, let me think about it, talk to my wife, see what I wanted to do." And after a lot of soul searching you it just seemed to be the right thing to do to go with people I knew rather than wait a couple of years and be an individual mobilization placement and go with people I didn't know. So, you know, a couple of days' worth of serious soul searching and you know thinking about all that it would mean to my family, I decided to go. So I got mobilized in February of 2003, went to Fort Dix for our pre-mobilization training and activities. Spent about a month there, then got sent to a forward operating base called Camp Virginia in Kuwait, spent another month there getting all of our final shots and getting our vehicles in country and getting ready to go. And then during the ground war we got the go-ahead to go over the berm and head into Iraq. So we had a seventy-five vehicle convoy that took off out of Camp Virginia and convoyed just about twenty-four hours straight all the way to Camp Balad, which had numerous different names over the years, but it was Balad Army Base. And we ended up there for abou--I was there for about a month and a half. When we got there everybody they just said, "Freeze wherever you at, the ground war is over. And now were gonna consolidate on the objectives." And so we stayed there and made camp for about a month and a half. And then there was a call for augmentees to go to Baghdad to help staff up the new headquarters for the theater - the entity was called Combined Joint Task Force 7. So I was deemed not essential to my battalion headquarters. I had been the assistant S3 battle captain for operations and plans, and so they just said, "Listen you get a whole bunch of extra captains down there at the 325th MI Battalion, cough up two and send them to Baghdad and please send ones with human intelligence experience." So I didn't actually have human intelligence experience, but they sent me anyways. And me and one of my best friends got sent to Baghdad. He ended up being the battle captain of the CJ2X which is Combined Joint, 2X is human intelligence section. And I ended up being the human intelligence operations officer for the theater. And that, phew boy, that was probably one of the most traumatic, interesting, dynamic, fulfilling, every possible emotion you can think of. SY: So let talk about 'em, let's tease it apart. So what's, what's traumatic, what's fulfilling, what's? WL: Well it was a fairly easy job from June, I think I got there June 6, until mid-to late summer, and then the insurgency started. So it was initially really exciting to be in to be involved in the setting up of this new headquarters and the staffing of it and the policies and procedures that went with it and standard operating procedures and writing. We were still doing detainment operations and one of my responsibilities was again was to think about the requirements, what we needed to collect intelligence on from a detainee point of view. And I had a hundred tactical human teams out in the field that were collecting intelligence, and my job was to figure what they should collect on. So I had this huge enterprise that I was working on. I was only an Army captain and it was a huge scope for somebody with very little experience in that realm. And I,14 you know I sip from a fire hose for about two months, and learned a lot, and filled my brain up with a lot of cool experiences that I only learned about in books. And so that's kind of the fulfilling part. And then when the insurgency started we had a commanding general named Ricardo Sanchez, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, and he turned out to be perhaps the most toxic leader I've ever met in my life. He would, he would question everybody's performance of their specific jobs without any inkling of what their job actually was. He was heard to say things like, in front of thousands of people in the battle update brief, he'd say things like, "Why are we catching so many people and detaining them, why don't we just kill them?" So that environment bread a lot of, just a toxic environment. And if you're, if you're a malevolent person looking for an excuse to be and have an outlet for that malevolency, that's a license. And, and what that ultimately, in my experience, devolved into was the Abu Ghraib problem. So for me in August, August-September of 2003 we had an interrogation and detention facility over at Camp Cropper which is on Baghdad International Airport, and the international community for the Red Cross came and said, "These are inhumane living conditions. You gotta get these detainees out of here." So working with the MPs we had to find someplace new to put them and it just so happened that the prison, the maximum security prison out of Abu Ghraib - they're actually four prisons on the Abu Ghraib complex - had just begun renovations and it was intended to be used by civi-by the Iraqis for civilian detainees. And, and so we went out to take a look at it at the provost marshal's suggestion, and determined that it would be an absolutely magnificent facility for this. And kind of reflecting on the citizen soldier model, on my team of intelligence guys my driver and NCO in his civilian life was a corrections officer at Rikers Island; and my company commander was the president of state correctional workers in Massachusetts, the Correctional Worker's Union and he was, he was a, correction he was a corrections officer here in Massachusetts. So I brought them with me and I said, "You know we have to find some place to put the worst of the worst, the people we want to interrogate, what do you think of this facility?" And they were like, "This is perfect. This is the right place." SY: What made it perfect? WL: It was, ah, it was well organized, it was clean, it was neat, it wasn't in the bombed out parts, it wasn't in a mud puddle. It was just in immaculate shape because it had been renovated and it was perfectly suited for an interrogation facility. SY: So the thinking in some ways was that it would be humane? WL: Yes. Absolutely that was the absolute intention was to—when you have high level detainees you don't want them to think about anything else other than what you want them to think about. You don't want them thinking about how to escape the mortar attacks at night, you don't want them to—you want them to be thinking about whatever, whatever you're working on with them in terms of intelligence collection. So it was really an optimal facility. And so that was, you know that was a high point in my deployment. It was. I actually have pictures of me behind bars at Abu Ghraib. SY: I saw those pictures. WL: That's the day I picked Abu Ghraib. It was my staff action that made Abu Ghraib happen.15 SY: And they're really chilling in retrospect but at the time, right? And then and then it looks like you're seeing all the remains of Saddam Hussein's prison too. It looks like a lethal injection bottle and signs for death row and so I'm-I was trying to imagine what you guys were talking about when you were walking—there's graffiti, super weird pornographic graffiti. What were you guys talking about when you were exploring that building? WL: You know we'd already been briefed that Saddam executed about 30,000 people at that jail in his reign of terror. And we also knew that some pretty despicable things had happened out there. And so, you know, it was all to us almost surreal to be walking around and seeing all that wild graffiti, and the, you know we don't really know what was in those bottles but you can [laughs], you can make all kind of informed guesses. And then to actually go in the death house which, which ultimately got walled in so that people wouldn't go into it so it could be preserved for war crimes. Um, I mean that that to me was the closest thing that I have ever felt to death because you could smell death. It was it was an awful, awful, awful place. So that, you know, was traumatic on some level but the breadth of the experience for me was just absolutely incredible in terms of the scope of what I was involved in. SY: So let's go back to the citizen soldier idea to the idea of the ethical soldier. So what do you think happened there? What turned it into what it became? WL: So there was this enormous pressure starting with Secretary of Defense - Undersecretary of Defense - all the way down to Ricardo Sanchez: "We need to get more intelligence, more actionable intelligence so we can stop this insurgency." And the pressure, I can't even begin to describe the pressure that these people, these senior leaders were under. And I, I have the luxury now at this point in my career to have a sense of what that strategic leadership's like and how, how difficult it is to manage political expectations and, you know, the realities of a war torn environment. And I guess I can see how a twisted mind can get twisted to the point of losing the ability to be a genuine leader. And that's what happened. At all ranks people that could twist their social values to suit ends that were inconsistent with those values, those people were everywhere. And it permeated all the way down to the lowest level, it really did. I wasn't, I didn't personally didn't meet any of the MPs that were involved in the atrocities that happened at Abu Ghraib. I did know two of the intelligence people that were involved, not on a friendly basis but they were they were junior enlisted and I knew who they were and they weren't bad people, they just caught up in a very ugly situation. And so I think it was that that just that tiered level of toxic leadership that permeated everything - results now, don't care what the cost is. And, and I learned a lot from that experience. I learned, I learned really how easy it is for well-intentioned, well-managed groups to get off track because there's this abject fear and and apprehension about failing. Because you're failing your brothers in arms when they're getting killed every night from mortar attacks and roadside bombs, and so this this constant drumbeat of "Your brothers are dying, your sisters are dying on the roads of Iraq. You have to do something, you have to get this intelligence." And so when people say that enough, and you live through enough depravity, it's not hard to imagine how people can lose it and I think that's what happened. I really do. SY: And now you're a colonel so now you are higher in the leadership. How, how as a leader do you think you can prevent this type of thing from happening again? 16 WL: That's a, that's a good question. I've taken the last five years of my career and really focused on mentorship. I sit down with every single officer that I rate or senior rate and I'm, unfortunately I'm one of the rare people that does this. One on one I devote an hour at a time to each and every one of them and really have a conversation about values and how values are the foundation of citizen soldiery, because all my soldiers are reservists, and how values are really the foundation of good ethical leadership. And it might sound weird to have an hour long conversation about values but that time goes quickly when you have people that are engaged in it, and I can tell which ones get it and which ones don't get it. And the ones that get it are the ones that I invest my time in and the ones that just sit there and go, "Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir." "Okay [laughs], you don't really get it, so you know, you're not really on track." And that's how my ratings fall out. So that's my way of giving back, I guess, is to try and identify the people that I think have the moral footing necessary to be a strategic leader. SY: And so [coughs] if you were gonna give Norwich advice about how to train ethical leaders, right, who can who can stand up when things are toxic right, who can have integrity. What advice would you give them? WL: Excellent question. When I was a cadet, not a Norwich cadet, but an Army ROTC cadet and to some extent the Norwich thing, making second lieutenants was kind of a cookbook operation. It was "Here's the recipe. Put him in the box, sprinkle all the dust around him, shake it up, enough will stick. Send him all to all these very regimented courses. Get him smart about how the Army works and stick him in the force." And I think that was, I know that was a very Cold War mentality - shake and baking officers. Today's world is so much more complex. SY: Okay hold on one sec [sirens outside of office, interview pauses]. [interview resumes] WL: So now we live in the age of the strategic corporal, where the lowest private through social media can literally influence the battle. Abu Ghraib is an example of that, those pictures got out. And ah, so you have to teach leaders—it's much less a recipe than it is a crafting. Every individual needs to be crafted. They have to understand the strategic implications, they need to be taught how to think critically and creatively. The very volatile world that we live in with globalization, urbanization, mass communications, climate change—all these things weren't even in our vocabulary when I was a second lieutenant, because we were focused on the Cold War. And now our threats are more likely than not, the future threats are less about kinetic threats, somebody shooting at you, and more like what happens when a city of 24 million people gets hit with a tidal wave. And then what do you do? And you're a second lieutenant and you get put in charge of a bunch of people in that environment. There's no way that you can possibly teach a second lieutenant how to handle every single one of those situations. Whereas when I was a second lieutenant you had a cookbook, you followed the cook book, "Don't deviate outside of this, you'll be good." Now we have to encourage them to look outside of the four corners of their little world and figure out how what's on the right and the left is gonna impact their operation. And, you know, the military talks now not about the unknown but the unknowable. So as an intelligence officer the unknown was pretty daunting. My job was to 17 figure out what wasn't known and how to go know it, how to collect that information. What we talk now about the unknowable, the implication being, you can't know [laughs]. You can come up with various constructs of what that unknowable thing might do, and how you cope with that, but it's literally unknowable, you'll never know. And so that framework has to be driven into the lowest levels because those kid—those are the kids that are gonna make it survive. They're gonna go into villages with people who are living primitively and try and infuse in them our democratic Western values, and help them with development and conflict at the most elementary level. And that is not something you can get out of textbooks at Norwich. You have to go out in the wide world and see that. I love the fact that Norwich has a very aggressive international program now, because that is absolutely - I am utterly convinced that the future of education has to involve an international component so that you see, touch and feel how other people live and have an appreciation for other, other value systems other than Western value systems. SY: Seems like anthropology classes should be required too. WL: Language class, anthropology class. I know it's awfully hard to do that when you have a technical discipline like electrical engineering, but I think that it's we are doing our nation a disservice if we don't educate our children and our young adults to live in an increasingly global world. Insularity is the enemy of America's success, it really is. So I'm utterly persuaded by that. And a little aside - when I grew up in the Army it was all about the Cold War, the Russians were our enemies, anything to do with Russia was like, "ooh." And so just as an example of how things change, in Bosnia in 2002 I had a Russian Spetsnaz colonel - full colonel, I was a captain - I had a Russian Spetsnaz full colonel working for me, doing collection plans for the intelligence that the Russians were doing in their sector. We had a Russian sector. And the guy's name was Colonel Volkov and I befriended the guy, professionally, not personally, I befriended the guy. And we ended up having a very good cordial relationship to the point where on Defenders of the Motherland Day in, I want to say it was February or March of 2002, he invited me to be his distinguished guest at the Defenders of the Motherland parade and ceremony. And I ended up getting placed in the front row right next to the CG, and the CG sat down and he goes, "You're in the wrong place, move back captain, you don't, you're not a distinguished visitor." And I said, "Actually, I am, Colonel Volkov invited me." And he looked at me like, "What? That doesn't make any sense." And Colonel Volkov showed me that cooperation, even in today's environment, is possible, you know when you get down to the human level. He invited us to that event and then held a private reception for us with vodka and smoked salmon and toast and cheese. And then we moved from to that private reception to his group's his little special forces bar on the Russian base and we drank there for like four hours. And then we were all trying to leave and one of the traditions is to cut the patch off your uniform and exchange patches. So I was in the middle of cutting my patch off my uniform and the colonel was looking very longingly at my Gerber knife, it was a very basic folding knife. And I said, "Sir, would you like my knife as a gift?" And he said, "I could never accept," through his translator, he was like, "I could never accept such a generous gift." And I said, "Come on it's a thirty dollar knife," and I put it in his hand. And he goes, "And I must repay you." So he takes me to his private quarters. Now you have to keep in mind I'm on a Russian Army base in the middle of Bosnia and me and this colonel walk off into the woods arm and arm, half in the bag. And I'm gone, and all my 18 colleagues are like, "Where did Lyons go?" So I disappeared for an hour. He took me back to his private quarters. We drank Slobovicz and chatted a little bit down there, and then he reached into uni-his closet and he took his uniform, and he took every badge off his uniform and he said, "Is this a good enough gift?" And I was dumbfounded like, I have now all these Spetsnaz badges from Russia. And I said, "Sure." I'd have taken two, but I'll take it, you know? So I put it in my pocket, we had another shot of Slobovicz and then it occurred to me, "Oh my God, like I've been gone like an hour with a Russian Spetsnaz colonel and if they're not totally freaking out, something's wrong." So we go back and you know frantic, "Oh my God, thank God you're okay." And I went back to Eagle Base that night and I just reflected that a mere three years earlier we were mortal enemies, and to have that experience at that juncture in my life was just remarkable, remarkable. And it just proof positive that whatever today's situation is three years now it is not what you think it's gonna be and and and if Norwich doesn't produce people that can anticipate those changes and be ready for those challenges. You can't know them all, but you have to have the intellectual capacity to cope with them all, to adapt to them all. SY: And not knee jerk prejudices against entire peoples and populations or religions, right? WL: Exactly. SY: Because lo and behold [laughs]. WL: Yup, exactly. So that really opened my mind up to how important it is be, and I used the word agile because you have to be intellectually agile. You have to understand and perceive on a very subtle level all the little changes that are going around the world, and if you're not capable of doing that, you know, we're gonna make colossal strategic mistakes. The strategic corporal is gonna make a big blunder and jeopardize an entire national security strategy. And who better than to do that than citizen soldiers that have one leg in the civilian world and understand things from the civilian populous point of view, and one leg in the military world who have a greater appreciation of military strategy and tactics and operations. I think the citizen soldier brings that dimension to, a very much needed dimension to the national security strategy. And incidentally many senior Army leaders after thirteen years of war get it, they have had reservists in their headquarters and have had one on one contact. I myself, my boss in Iraq was General Barbara Fast, active duty, one star promotable, and I was in her office one day and she was briefing me-not briefing me but, you know, bringing me up to speed on a particular initiative [coughs]. And she says, "What do you think of this?" and I said, "Ma'am I think that's really awful idea." And she was startled, she said, "Nobody talks to me that way. Why do you talk to me that way?" And I said, "Ma'am, I'm a Reservist. If I can't be honest with you than I'm doing something wrong. If you like my advice and change your plan because I was honest with you, then good, you changed the plan in a way that I think is constructive. If you don't like my advice and you say, 'piss off,' I just say, 'good,' because you know I was heard, different ideas were on the table, and I wasn't a yes man." So I said, "Ma'am, you're always gonna get a very honest answer opinion from me. You might not like it but it's gonna be a very honest and direct opinion." And she goes, "You know, I have like twenty majors that work for me" (at this point I was a major). She's like, "You know nobody, nobody gives me honest advice, you're the only one." And from that point forward I was her go-to guy for the "is this a stupid idea or a good idea or whatever." 19 SY: So what do you think gave you the chutzpah to be able to do that, to sort of to speak your mind in that context? WL: I think it was a lifetime of of—first of all confidence in your analytical abilities which I, I've always been fairly confident in my analytical abilities. But I think it was the, you know, the lifetime of values thing, the integrity that my parents inculcated in me, and the school inculcated in this this this, "Always stand up for what's right approach." And, you know, the truth of the matter is you know we live in a somewhat political world so you do have to when to pick your battles and not everything can be a fight because that person gets nothing done. But you really have to be perceptive and know when is the right time to speak your mind and make your thoughts heard. And if you're judicious and thoughtful about it you'll get a reputation for being the one that can be called upon to consult with in tough situations. And I, I've been fortunate that that's been the case for me. I've been counsel now to people that I started as company grade officers that are now generals, and it's satisfying and rewarding when somebody calls you up and says, "Hey I got this, you know, this really tough problem, just wanted to talk to you about it, you know. I don't need an answer. I just want to talk it out." And it's very satisfying, it really is. SY: I can imagine, you know it's interesting at this point I've done a bunch of these interviews and in my experience it's reservists and ah helicopter pilots— WL: [laughs]. SY: Who their identity as citizen soldiers is about, you know, standing up for what you think is right even if it is pushing back against authority. And then people who are more Regular Army, that is not their mentality. It's interesting. That's what I've observed so far, yeah. WL: One of my, one of the, my, the deputy intelligence officer for Iraq, he was our boss for a little while, and he was responsible for the day-to-day operations and General Fast was the big thinker policy person. So Colonel Boltz is the guy's name, he's a Norwich guy, Norwich, I want to say '78, '79, Steve Boltz. He's currently the Deputy G-2 for U.S. Army Europe, fantastic guy. So he would come into our—we were behind a purple curtain believe it or not in our little headquarters, and he would come in and he would flip the purple curtain open, and me and my buddy who was Ponce, this guy's name was Captain Ponce at the time, he's now Colonel Ponce. He'd go with his really strange accent, "Ponce, Lyons, tell me the truth, all my majors lie to me and you're the only ones that tell me the truth!" And we'd sit down and we'd have an hour long bull session with this colonel because he could trust us to just tell us the way it was. And when we were flat out wrong, he'd explain it, he'd mentor us and say, "Just because you have the chutzpah to be honest with me. I'm gonna invest in you and, and mentor you." And so Ponce and he actually ended up being very close friends, and Bill just visited him in Europe like just two months ago. And he's just a fantastic guy, fantastic leader. I mean he was the, he's the classic guy who got to colonel speaking his mind but couldn't get to general because he spoke his mind. That's Steve Boltz and I appreciated him for all of that he was a really straight shooting kind of guy. Really, really cool. SY: So it seems like you've seen examples of really toxic leadership and really good leadership? 20 WL: I have, yeah, yeah. SY: And I'm wondering if I have more questions to ask you about that. I mean and you've served, you've served at all your deployments as an officer. WL: I have, yeah. SY: And I guess how do you think the experience is different um for somebody - I mean this is such a huge question - but for somebody who's enlisted. I guess I've been doing interviews in part with some people who've dealt with PTSD and it seems pretty clear that PTSD is more prevalent among enlisted men than officers, and I don't know if that's true or not true but do you have thoughts about that? WL: Yeah, it's not my experience. I think that officers tend to manage and conceal their PTSD because they're expected to. You're expected to be the tough one, the guy that keeps it all together, but there's ample opportunities, ample examples of officers that didn't keep it together. I'll give an example, my, my brigade commander, a guy whose name is escaping me at the time, he had the single largest military intelligence brigade ever assembled, seven battalions. It was huge and he was responsible for Abu Ghraib, the intelligence side of Abu Ghraib. And I remember being summoned to his office and a guy named Jonathan Carpik came to me and he, Captain Carpik, and he said, "Hey Colonel." I can't re—he's the guy pinning the medal on in my picture, and I can't--I'm just drawing a complete blank as to his name. He said, "He wants you in his office." Now he had this little closet of an office, it was literally a closet with a desk in it. And so I went and the door was maybe three inches open and I could hear sobbing inside. So I was like, "Well that's weird." So I knocked on the door and he said, "Come in," and I kind of cracked the door a little bit and he said, "Come on in Lyons." He was visibly shaken, and he looked at me he goes, "You know I never thought I'd say this, but I hate my job and I hate my life." And that was a full colonel in the middle of a combat environment. And if that's not PTSD I don't know what it is. So, you know he clearly was struggling like the weight of the world around him. I myself struggled with survivor's guilt coming home. SY: Can you talk about that? WL: Well I spent about a year in therapy just coming to terms with the various losses. Two guys in my unit got killed, Travis Fredrich and um Gregory Bellanger two, one was a cook that was on a convoy, the other was an intelligence interrogator who was killed in a in a mortar attack. And that was a bit of a loss and I came home and my Norwich class president Rob Soltes was killed shortly thereafter. He was an optometrist on a Civil Affairs mission in northern Iraq and he got hit by a VB IED and he died [coughs]. So those were very traumatic experiences for me, and what it resulted for me was you know those were lives that were lost. And first of all it could have been me and maybe I would have felt better it was me so that their families didn't experience the loss. But it also made me reexamine all of my own priorities in life, like and this is gonna sound trivial and trite, but how can I live better to make their loss worth it? So that's really been sort of the driving force behind my life since then. And then my bo--my roommate in Bosnia, a guy named Harold Brown who's from Bolton, Mass., Army Reservist, he ended up getting recruited by the CIA when we left Bosnia. And he ended up being an intel operative for 21 them. and he is the one of the guys that gets killed in Khost in the movie Zero Dark Thirty. That was what? Four years ago now, Christmas-ish? That was a huge loss, I mean that was very very traumatic. He and I were very close in Bosnia. We stayed close. So I still work with his family and we try to remember him every year. It's a very big loss, so. SY: I also would imagine coming home and then the Abu Ghraib scandal breaking would also be a bit of an existential crisis in addition, right? WL: Yeah. Well I and Ponce ended up being interviewed extensively, ah what's an AR-15-6 investigation, which is an investigation into potentially criminal activity. It's like a precursor to like a grand jury type of investigation. A guy named Major General George Fay came and interviewed us because of Abu Ghraib. And I was interviewed extensively as was Ponce, and you know looking, they were looking deep and desperately to try and find the trigger that caused all that and I mentioned I don't think it was anything specific, I think it was just pervasive. But um, but reliving all of that was very, very traumatic. And I'll tell you probably one of the weirdest things that I experienced in Iraq was at six months under the Geneva Conventions if you are a detainee you are entitled to a review of your detention. And so in August, which was roughly two--six months after the war started, we had to start reviewing all these cases. And I was appointed the guy that was gonna be the intel person coordinating the review of all the files. So there was an MP officer that was reviewing for threats, and there was an intel officer reviewing to determine if there was intel value in that detainee and whether we should keep them for the intel value. And so we were reviewing all these files and we literally had something like 14,000 detainees at this point, and I'm reviewing the earliest ones first because they're entitled to their review. So one of the first manila folders I'm handed, handed has a detainee number on the, you know the little piece that sticks out, index, and a name. And you open it up and there was nothing in it and I go, "Hey anybody have the information on this file?" "Oh no, I didn't see anything." So I called down to the detention center I'm like, "Hey I got this manila folder with nothing in it" [laughs]. And they're like, "Yeah that's all we got." I'm like, "Well how am I supposed to make a decision on that?" you know, "Go debrief the guy and find out what the circumstances of, at least the circumstances of capture were." So somebody goes into the pen and now this guy's been tied up for six months and when they go, "So you know what's the circumstances?" And so he was walking back from the hospital after carrying his daughter several miles to the hospital, dropped his daughter off. On his way home, um, the 3rd Infantry Division captured him because he was out past curfew. Got rolled up, sent to Camp Cropper, then sent off to Abu Ghraib and had spent six months wondering what happened to his daughter, wondering if his family knew where he was, wondering anything. And so, I mean if we didn't make an enemy out of this guy I don't know what would, right? So I reflected a lot of that. That definitely troubled me, you know, as I, as I came home and unwound from the war that. That, you know, that haunted me a bit. So, you know, PTSD comes in a lot of forms. Those are my forms. And there are all different forms, you know. It's… SY: Yeah I talked to a guy last week who was in Vietnam and Korea. And in his words he was "cuckoo" after Korea, that's what he said. So he was, he had PTSD after Korea. And he said oddly he healed himself in Vietnam because in addition to you know developing a missile, he 22 personally created these two humanitarian missions. So like they took some rice from the Viet Cong and the Army was gonna burn it and he was like, "Yeah I'm taking that over to that village," right? There was another instance where he took the packing crates and brought it over to build a school. And he said really beautifully that he was able to maintain his sense of himself as an ethical person even though he was doing other things that he didn't feel good about. Because of that he was able to, to not feel so messed up when he got home. WL: Yeah, it's a good outlet. I think everybody, that's really what you need is an outlet. SY: Yeah, and maintaining a sense of yourself, right? WL: Yup. Yeah absolutely. I spent the last—the first—when I was deployed my mayor got voted out of office so I came home to no job. SY: Oh no! WL: So while I was trying to figure what to do a friend of mine said, "Hey, we're gonna start an engineering company. Do you know anybody that'd like to run it?" and I said, "Well, me." So I took that job and the weird thing was for the first two or three months I couldn't do anything. I would sit in front of the computer and stare at it, do internet searches about the war, because I needed the "vig," you know, the excitement of being engaged. And it just occurred to me one day I was like, "I'm a basket case [laughs]. I am totally lost." And that's when I decided to seek counseling because I knew that there was something wrong with me, and it was very standard behavior for somebody that was so amped up 24/7. I worked eighteen hours a day on military stuff and then [snap] gone. SY: Welcome home! WL: Yeah, welcome home, get normal, put a suit on, sit in front of the computer and and build a company. I was like uhh…. SY: Ahh! [laughs] what do I do? WL: So— SY: Did you have that hypervigilance stuff too that a lot of people describe? Like scanning and— WL: No, I, I honestly didn't. I did some pretty crazy stuff in terms of convoying in Iraq, but I never felt like the, and some people describe it to me as sort of the razor's edge experience, like you feel like you're right out on the edge of stuff. I did a lot of convoying in the Highway of Death and I don't know why but it never, and I was very very, I was very attuned to the threat and I did everything that I was supposed to do, but I never felt that particular high. The high I felt was more about working with Special Operators to identify targets, and to me that was the most exhilarating thing that I could do. So I, you know convoyed to Tikrit, and I convoyed to out to Abu Ghraib a bunch of times. I convoyed to Babylon. That was a wonderful experience, I got to explore all the ruins. Oh it was just fantastic experience, just very, very, um, very rewarding to do that. And yeah, I mean I spent a lot of time on my way out to visit other agencies that I 23 needed to coordinate with as part of my responsibilities. And it just never occurred to me, I knew how dangerous it was but it never felt as exhilarating as the other parts of my job. SY: Hm. That makes sense. WL: The other people that worked for me were like, "Why do you go out so much?" you know, "You shouldn't be so quick to go out on these convoys." I'm like, "But it's my job. I need to talk to these people." They're like, "Use a phone." I'm like, "I can't get the same information on the phone, I gotta go talk to these people," so. My driver who was uh, Freddy Klein, who probably would much have preferred that I did not go out. He tried on numerous occasions to talk me out of my road trips but he and I almost met our fate, we got shot at from behind by our own people who discharged a weapon when they shouldn't have, and it went right between us. I was sitting in the passenger seat of the truck and he was sitting in the driver's seat of the truck, went by his ear by about six inches. Yeah it was a pretty interesting day. So that's the closest I came to getting shwacked. SY: That's pretty close [laughs]. WL: It was a big, there was a night we got 57 millimeter rockets raining on us, and so that was another fairly close call. It was quite the experience to say the least. SY: How'd you get that teacup? WL: So, um, when I went to the, I think they call it the Al Faw Palace, it's the the palace that was in the middle of Camp Victory. Camp Victory was actually forming at that time, like they just barely had the perimeter secured when I showed up. And I had this guy who was a Marine Corps Major, a guy named Bob Sirks who was nominally my boss for three weeks or something. And he goes, "Have you been in the palace?" Now the palace was supposed to be off-limits, we weren't supposed to go there. I said, "I haven't." And he goes, "Let's go in." I said, "I don't know." He's like, "There's nobody over there, nobody will ever know." He's like, "I've been inside, it's cool." I said, "Okay." So we, we found a way into the building, I don't even remember what way we got in and it was opulent - gold toilet seats and gold leaf everything. And so he goes, "Hey, let's go in the kitchen." So we go in the kitchen and this huge china set, now this was a palace, one of the many palaces that Saddam used, but this huge china set with the tea cups and everything just left untouched. It's just sitting there. And he's like, "Oh let's get a souvenir." I'm like, "I don't know, you know." He's like, "Oh just a tea cup." So, "alright just a tea cup." So he gets a tea cup and I get a tea cup and he goes, "Now what?" I said, "That's enough for me." And so he took a whole bunch of other stuff and I was like, "Well I got my one war trophy, I'll take this." So that was the tea cup story, and that particular day, again because there was nobody in the palace. There are a whole bunch of pictures in my CDs of being inside the chandelier which is a totally cool experience. There's a chandelier in the pictures and you can actually go inside the chandelier. SY: I somehow must have missed that set of pictures because I—you know what? Maybe there were two Iraq discs and I only looked at one. I'll go back and look later. 24 WL: Yeah, that was cool. And then there's a picture of me on the roof, and there's a hole in the roof so it's kinda like straddling my, I'm straddling the hole. And that's where a JDAM1 went through the roof and then you can see the picture of Saddam's bedroom that's blown to smithereens. And so that one bomb went down three stories and basically blew up on his bed. Of course he wasn't there, but the intent was to target him. And that was really proof positive that I was on the right side [laughs] just to see to see the technological advantage that we had. It was really really amazing. And the rest of the building was intact. It was just that room that was blown up. Everything else, the tea cups were all where they were supposed to be, the, nothing was affected outside of that. I mean it was really— SY: The building wasn't even rattled enough that the tea cups fell? WL: Yeah it was it was totally illus—illustrative of how we were— SY: Illustrative? I never know how pronounce that word, yeah. WL: Yeah you get the message. It was the, technical, technological overmatch was on, you know, absolute display in that, in that particular moment to me. It was really amazing, really amazing. SY: What'd ya think when you were walking though Babylon? WL: You know that was almost surreal. The Marines had kind of secured Babylon to prevent looting, and they hired the chief archeologist of Iraq to give tours. So this guy who was Saddam's chief archeologist showed us around all of the ruins of Babylon. And one of the weird things is that Saddam had—he was very envious of Nebuchadnezzar, the king that ruled Babylon. And he built a huge castle above Babylon to show his supremacy, but he later thought better of it and he wanted his castle built on top of Nebuchadnezzar's castle. So he actually in the process he sank Nebuchadnezzar's castle because it was on filled marshlands. So you can see the sinking process going on because stacked all these bricks with his stamp on it over Nebuchadnezzar's bricks with Nebuchadnezzar's stamps on it. But we saw the procession street where he had all his military parades and civic parades, the Lion of Babylon was still there. We got—I got pictures in front of the Lion of Babylon. It was a very rewarding experience. I can't say that I had a very classical education and that sort of stuff so I was kind of learning it on the fly with the chief archeologist of Iraq, so I guess you couldn't ask for a better teacher than that. It was a very, it was a very interesting experience. Very fun. SY: That's pretty cool. I have to head to Northbridge soon and I want to beat some of the traffic. WL: I got to go pick up my kids. SY: Alright, any last thoughts? This has been a fantastic interview. WL: Oh it's my pleasure. Um no. I, you know I will say that I owe my success to Norwich and to a number of leaders that were Norwich, and weren't Norwich, along the ways. One of my best friends is now a commander of my command in the Reserves, the military intelligence readiness 1 This is an acronym for Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), a bomb guidance system. 25 command. The guy's name is Brigadier General Gabriel Troiano. He's not a Norwich guy but he exemplifies the citizen soldier in my mind. He was my boss in Bosnia, he was my boss in Iraq, and now he's a brigadier general and that to me is proof positive that the right values system and the right leadership really does make a difference. It really makes a difference and I applaud Norwich for staying on that path all these years, and I hope that they stay on it. SY: Yeah, hey thanks! WL: My pleasure.

Transcript of an oral history interview with Madonna Commo, conducted by Sarah Yahm at the Sullivan Museum and History Center on 30 March 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project. The interview focuses on Commo's experiences working at the barbershop at Norwich University for the past thirty years. ; 1 Madonna Commo, Oral History Interview March 30, 2015 Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Sarah Yahm Transcribed by C.T. Haywood, NU '12, Mary 12, 2015 SARAH YAHM: Okay so I'm wondering if you could introduce yourself. MADONNA COMMO: I am Madonna Commo. I am in the barbershop. I've been in the barber shop for 30 years. SY: And today's March 30th? MC: Thirtieth I believe. SY: Okay it's March 30th and we're here at the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Okay so how did you first come to Norwich? MC: I first came to Norwich because they were looking for an individual that knew how to cut female's hair. The barbershop had male barbers for I'm sure the existence of the barbershop, but females were suddenly being introduced and so there was a new demand for someone that knew how to cut that female's hair. And so I suddenly had a job. SY: And did you see it advertised in the paper. How'd you know it was open? MC: He did advertise in the paper. He advertised for a—actually for a barber slash cosmetologist and I just happened to be reentering the field - I had been out of it for a number of years - and so I answered the call. I thought it would be a lot of fun and so he was quite demanding. He wanted me to go in and take barber college classes before I even started, which was pretty senseless. It cost me a lot of money to do and he could have done this as an apprenticeship, as a barber apprenticeship but he just didn't want to do it I guess or whatever. But I did what he asked me to do and so I did get a number of barber hours under my belt before I even started here at Norwich. But I was a licensed cosmetologist when I started here. SY: And what was your first day like? What was your experience working, it was an all-male bastion, right? MC: It was an all-male, yeah it was very--I'm not gonna say it wasn't intimidating. It was extremely intimidating. I wasn't sure I was gonna come back for the next few days. It was, and I'm not that easily intimidated. I was used to working around guys. But yeah, the whole atmosphere, the whole feeling was just very, very different from what I was used to. So it was, it was a very strong, dominating, loud. Between the military atmosphere which I was not used to, and the solid male pretty much influence, it was a real challenge to try to fit into the barber shop. SY: Did--were things said to you? Or was it more just a feeling? MC: Well, you know, it started out as a feeling. And there was, you know, definitely a, a dominance. The males were definitely dominating and of course they would be, I was the new kid on the block anyways. So I expected the dominance, but as the years went by and so forth they still wanted to continue to be extremely dominating and so forth. And it was more of a male dominance than it was an employee dominance that needed to be there. 2 SY: So how did you kind of assert yourself? How did you kinda make it a place that you were okay to work? MC: We were, we were so busy that I just I just kept cutting hair. I just came in and I just minded my business and I showed up on time, and I just, I just minded my business. And I tried to please both the Corps and my employer. I tried to do the best I could all the way around. I soon found that they you know, they didn't want me to wear certain things and I had to--he event told me not to have a conversation with the guys in my chair, that I didn't need to have a conversation with them. "Just put them in the chair. You don't need to talk to them, just cut their hair." And I'm like, "Okay," because my conversation might be flirting. And I'm like [laughs] "okay," and at one point it got it warmer you know I think it was a fairly warm day and so and I love dresses, so I just it wasn't a fancy dress, I put on a dress. We wore jackets anyway, and they completely flipped out on me, they just said, "Don't you ever show up here with a dress again. We don't want to be looking at those legs. You're giving the whole wrong influence on this barber shop." And I'm like, "o-kay." So it was yeah, it was very interesting job. SY: They sound terrified of women, just like terrified like the fact you and a dress could just "ah." MC: You know you're right it--at that point for me they were terrifying, okay? But as I look back at it they were the ones that were terrified of me, they were terrified of me even being in there they were--you know it's like putting a woman on a boat, it's just bad luck okay. And I got that feeling as the woman working in the barber shop it was just a sailor's bad luck, it was a barber's bad luck to have that woman in there [laughs]. Isn't that awful? SY: Sounds like the fifties in there huh? MC: Yeah let's go back to the thirties maybe, yeah. SY: Interesting. MC: Yeah. SY: Interesting, really strange. And then you left and you were back in Central Vermont where things were, yeah it's so strange. MC: Yeah. SY: Yeah, and so when did things start to change? MC: Well I just. you know I just stayed consistent [laughs] and held my ground as an employee I held my ground. And people came and went, in other words bosses came and went. He'd, they'd contract out the service and individuals would not get the contract and we would get other contractors. And the second gentleman that I worked for was much more a compliant, he was a wonderful boss actually, really liked him a lot and worked for a number of years for him. And ran the shop for him and enjoyed him a lot. So, he was a different, he was still old school but that influence was gone, and he allowed us to make the atmosphere of the barber shop a completely different atmosphere from what it was when I first started. SY: So how did you, how did you change the atmosphere? What was it like when you first started and what was it like when you changed it? MC: First started it was almost like they were sergeants in there, demanding and screaming and hollering at the kids to, you know. The kids were running to the chair, sitting down and staring into space and it was just [laughs] I don't know, that's a long day and I'm not supposed to talk to them. And so we realized 3 and after working there for a number of years I realized that this just ridiculous. So in talking to the commandants at the time I said, "I really don't want this to be a place where the military demand is influenced in here. I want this to be a relaxed atmosphere, you know even the Rooks, can they at ease in here? Can we have conversations with them?" and I believe it might have been Melville at the time or whoever, wonderful man and he's like, "Absolutely, that's ridiculous let's change this." So he took the initiative to allow us to just get rid of all of that and told the cadre or whoever that in the shop you're not to push a kid agonist the wall. Back in the day it was pretty aggressive and so that suddenly was not allowed and as that came into play the kids would come in and relax and then we would have the radio on, and the magazines and even the Rooks were allowed to sit down and relax and be people in there for their, you know, time that they were there. So that worked out much better. SY: So now do you think it's kind of a safe space? Do people look forward getting a haircut especially when they're Rooks? MC: You know I think they do. I think they have for quite a while. We--at this stage of the game if we compared what the shop was when I started compared to what it is now, it's done a complete turnover. I have two other ladies that are working for me with me and this shop right now is almost like the kids come in and they can almost talk to us, because they're away from their moms and it's comfortable and they even confide in us, you know, personal things that we don't let anyone else we'd never, nothing ever leave our shop and I think that's why I've been there 30 years too. But you know it's a completely different space and they're very comfortable there. I do think they are. SY: Isn't that, I mean, isn't that always the story that like hair salons and barbershops and bars are often where people confess things and tell. It's a very intimate relationship. MC: It is. I mean they're sitting in the chair and it's a one on one with the individual that you're cutting their hair. And you know young people today I think are very comfortable with a female barber or person cutting their hair versus the old school barber that was rough and tough, the tattoos and whatever. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just, I think we've really set a nice atmosphere here at the University. And I think the University's happy with what we've done. I do. SY: And you took over the shop at some point? MC: We did, yes we, boy I think it was 1999 that we've had the contract. SY: And how did that happen? Was that, did you think considering the vibe when you started that they would let you run the show? MC: Well you know it -- again being a contractor was a man's world, and so we took a real big leap to go against the barbers that were in charge, the male barbers that had been in business for a long time. And it took us a couple of rounds to get the contract, but I think again the fact that we were constantly dependable, we were constantly reliable, we were doing the job, we had a good feeling about what we're doing, and I think we got the University's confidence in us as individuals and as employees that we would be able to handle the contract as a business. And I'm hoping that I won over there, you know, ability to think that I would able to be a good business person as well as a man. I think the world grew a little bit in those years. So we've had the contract ever since, yeah. SY: Yeah, so let's talk about, because you arrived when the first female Rooks arrived pretty much-- MC: Yes. 4 SY: And so what did you sort of witness? You sort of witnessed that changing campus. What was their experience like? Did you get to talk to them at all? MC: Well at first there was no conversations, but yeah I mean they were, golly gee those poor girls. I, you know, they would pretty much always be together. I don't think there were a lot them at the start and they pretty much always came in together. And you know what? It's still pretty routine that if one gal down another one will come with her. I think that bond here for the females is still pretty, pretty much there. We do have some regular gals that come in all the time and they're just so comfortable at this stage I mean one is graduating for sure, we cut her hair all the time, that she doesn't bring a friend in. But especially that freshman group, they're coming down they're always with another gal. So, yeah. SY: I guess I'm curious about the role that the haircut plays at Norwich 'cause you're there at the very first moment in that rite of passage. Can you talk about that, about Rook Week and haircuts? MC: You know, the haircut -- you can come into the college, you can sit down and take the test, you can look at kind of what's going on, you can put on the uniform and shine your shoes. But nothing is really completely life changing until you sit in that barber chair and we take your hair off. That is the moment that reality really hits not only the kids but the parents. Because the parents throughout the years on and off have still been around when we're cutting hair and I've seen students cry in my chair. I've seen students just literally almost break down in my chair. Students have left my chair because I say to them, I can tell if they're having a hard time and I give them a moment and it's like, and I tell them, I said, "this is the moment that you really need to decide whether you're gonna stay here and give it a shot or if you want to go back to mom and dad." I said, " because once I take this hair off its gonna be awhile coming back and so if you want a few minutes I'll go get your cadre, you can go over there and just take your time." Because this is life changing right here for these kids. And I've had kids get out of the chair, they've literally left the chair. I've had kids that I just cut their hair and I happen to walk out with them at the time and their parents were standing there and their parents just had, they just didn't even recognize them and then they start crying. So yeah I think that the haircut really is huge people don't think about it but it really plays a huge role in changing the whole mood of what they're doing at that, at that moment. SY: So do they come in, is it a somber atmosphere during Rook Week when they come in there? Are they sort of aware suddenly of the symbolism of it? MC: They come down with their company, and so there they come down. Our shop holds 30 at a time. Our shop is a huge shop so that they can sit down, and we just run them through. The cadre are in charge. The cadre tell them what to do but they're not working them in the shop because we don't allow that. But they're still, it's a very strict, there's no conversations between the kids and the individual beside of them. The cadre has very much in charge as we run these, these freshman through. So it's almost like they're in an assembly line and they really don't have any voice at that moment to just jump out of the chair until I give them the opportunity or my girls give them the opportunity. Because they're afraid to say anything to the cadre up until that point. SY: How do you read it? How do you know when need to tell someone that? MC: Oh you can tell. You can just read the kids. You know, yeah. SY: It's on their faces, their body posture? MC: Sure. They're sitting there and you're like, "Oh this kid's having a hard time, hard-hard time." SY: And have some gotten up and not come back? 5 MC: I think they have. I think they've gotten up and not come back. One of the most terrifying moments was this, this individual that marched to my chair, sat down, I caped them up and you know routinely you do so many haircuts that it just become,s your kind of almost in your own daze at the stage of the game, pushing them through. And I went to grab my, my clipper and almost ready to go to right down the center of their head and I happened to take a second look at them and look at their eyes and they were female. I literally almost had the clipper to the head and I just kind of panicked and I backed off, I shut my clipper off and I just like took a deep breath because I almost went right down to the middle. I mean she just looked so much - the uniform she looked like a male - you know I didn't pay attention to her walking. They all walk stiffly into the chair and she sat there and I just, yeah. And so I still - she was here the 4 years and she finally grew out her hair out, because her hair was short, she had a man's haircut then. And I, you know I honestly said to her I said, "I almost got that Rook haircut on you." She said, "Oh I know." She did not say a word to me, she was so afraid that she never said a word. She would have sat there and let me literally give her a high and tight because that's how terrified they are when they come through our shop. You need to realize that. But she graduated. She graduated and I said, "we got to grow your hair out" [laughs]. SY: I wonder because you seem like such a warm person I wonder what little things you do make them feel little better. It's an assembly line but is there still, like are you aware of attempting to transmit kindness or reassurance in some way? MC: The whole, my whole team does. My whole team's great, yeah. SY: Yeah. Just the smile? Like what is it? MC: Yup, yup. We make them feel welcome and comfortable and I even just they sit there and they're so stiff and I'll just even pat them on the shoulders and say, "Okay take a deep breath, relax, you know. This is a great cut, you're gonna love this. You're not gonna have to shampoo for a year." And I say, "and your pillow, it's gonna stick to the side of your heads, so." And they, and they crack a smile and then you know so you just kind of, yeah. But they're not even breathing when they hit your chair. Not even breathing and that's normal, that's normal for them at that stage. They've been running, they've been you know [inaudible] throughout the week, this is Rook Week. SY: Those aren't even the ones who you tell to get u,p those are just normal [laughs]. MC: Normal ones yes. SY: What about the girls. What control, what are the rules regulating their hair? MC: The girls need to have the hair above like the collar of your jacket or whatever, they kind of want it just above that so that it's not hanging down below like your coat or your sweater or your uniform. They call it a blouse, whatever. So that has to be up, so it either needs to be cut fairly short in the back especially and they also restricting how much, you know the new haircut is kind of long in the front there, they would have to pin that up too so. Or you can have it very long which is most of the gals do and they just put it up every day, and that destroys the hair. So they're constantly coming down because we need to constantly trim those ends, you know. SY: So when -- it seems like you would have to talk to the girls in your chair even during Rook Week because you have to figure out whether they want you to cut it or whether you-- MC: Right. SY: Yeah. 6 MC: Yeah. SY: Yeah, and so you are able to talk to them a little bit? MC: Oh we're able to talk to them at this stage in the game, absolutely. I pretty much every once in a while you get some cadre and they're young too, they're just learning. This is their cutting edge of learning their job, and they're, especially at the beginning, they're feeling the power, you know and that's okay. But they start getting a little aggressive and I look at them and say, "Let's just, when they're in here, they're ours. When they're out there, they're yours." And he just looks at me and he backs off so you know, they're, they, you know. SY: They're not messing with you? MC: No, no they don't and we don't. Every once in a while the kids will sit there waiting and you know they're teenagers basically coming out of high school, and the language will get a little you know and immediately we look at them and say, "Not acceptable in here. This a very G-rated shop, be careful with your language." And they'll immediately apologize. We just don't allow it, just don't allow any of that in the shop. SY: Yeah you're creating a culture? MC: We are creating a culture and you know what? We're creating adults, we're trying start creating adults and they need to realize that this not high school. SY: And that's a question too because you're part of training them also, right? MC: I feel we are. SY: So what are, what are you training them to be? MC: Hopefully training them to be good leaders and good adults. SY: And you, how do you think communicate through the language stuff—are there other ways that you sort of communicate that? MC: Yeah we're very strict in the shop I mean we, they would love to come in throw their backpacks in the chair and throw their coats and their covers over in the care, in the corner and we just don't allow it. So when they come through the door we train them - "There's hangers over there, you will put your backpack over there. You will hang up your jacket or whatever, then you will come over here and you will find your card." We have, we really work hard on getting the whole program in place so that when they walk in at this stage in the game they're so well trained you just see them follow the whole little pattern of getting their haircut, because we don't allow anything else. SY: Because it just would be chaos? MC: Yeah, "You're not gonna throw your coat here that's not, no you're not home. Hangers over here." "Oh yes ma'am." Because we're not doing them a favor by doing that, and we're also not doing our shop a favor. We can't have coats all over the place and then have 20 kids come down. Where are they sitting on the floor? You're gonna throw your coats on the floor? Your backpacks? Let's teach them to be adults. SY: Right. And also you have so many kids going through so quickly. MC: So many kids I think we're doing 1500 on a regular month, that's twice a month that's 3,000 haircuts a month. That's huge. 7 SY: That's huge and what do you, how do you keep it interesting? MC: Well every kid's interesting. Every kid is different. I mean it's just like anything else. I mean you're sitting in front of a typewriter all day, you're sitting in front of a computer all day. I think my job is a lot more fun [laughs], a lot more fun. SY: And it's the connecting to the kids that makes it fun? MC: It is connecting to the kids. It's, it can be a fun shop unlike when I started. We try to make it fun in there. I mean there's a lot of haircuts and a lot of hair to deal with and we have to get, productivity is very important in that shop. We've created systems that were not in place when I started to increase the productivity of the shop. SY: What are your systems? MC: I created a rolodex system which is very backwards still, but it's still very functional. So every kid has a card and they flip through it, and we realized that we needed to create a menu. We had a lot of foreign students at this particular time and trying to understand what they wanted for a haircut took a lot of time out of the haircut. So we took pictures and it was like, we called it the McDonald hair menu, and the tops are certain numbers and the bottoms are certain numbers. You can actually mix and match the tops with the bottoms, and you come up with a 2 number on your card. So a lot of kids get a 5-6 which is a half inch top and a zero on the sides faded up. So the number systems work very, very quickly. It's something we can write on the cards so when the kid flips through his card we know what he's getting for a haircut, he doesn't have to worry about what he's getting for a haircut because he picked this out a while ago. So it increased productivity, doubled it so we could get them in and out. The kids love it because they don't have to remember what they're getting all the time. Because I have people that graduate and they go into a barbershop and they say, "Well I want a 2-6," and the barber is like, "what?" [laughs] SY: How fast can do a haircut? MC: Depending on the haircut, yeah. For fun one time I think I decided that I would see how many haircuts I could get done in a half an hour, and if I remember correctly I believe I got 7 haircuts done in half an hour but they were fast ones. [laughs] SY: Is that the record? MC: I--you know I don't know. We're pretty fast. You'd have to go a long way to find barbers that are faster than we are. But we also we don't cut corners because we do a nice job, so yeah. SY: So I feel like you have a unique perspective in some ways on changes at Norwich over time. What changes have you seen? I mean in the student population, have you seen in the culture of the cadre? You said it was pretty intense when you first got there. What's the, what are the larger shifts? International students. What are the larger shifts that you've seen? MC: Oh boy, I'm hoping that the system that's in place is still working which is the students training the students to become leaders. I, I think that's what the whole school is about. It took me a long time to figure this out. But, you know, I think that we need to continue to take you know the kids come in and I've had individuals that I had lunch with that are, they can't understand why they go through the Rookdom: what purpose does this serve? Why are we taking everything away from them? And it became apparent to me that, you know, if we put these kids in the military what is it that they're fighting for? 8 They're fighting for freedom. How on earth you can fight for something when you've never understood what it's like to loose it in the first place. SY: That's interesting. MC: And, and, and you know it appears as though not a lot of people see this whole program as doing exactly that. That's what this is all about. These kids at this age, which I don't think I could have done when I was 18, lose pretty much their freedom: their cell phones, their freedom, they lose their freedom. But they grow so much from that because they become leaders and they earn their freedoms back, you see. But I don't think half the people understand what it's all about. You can't fight a war for freedom if you don't have any idea what freedom is. SY: I don't even think the trainers have put it that way. I don't think the military formulates it that way. I feel like that's the smartest justification of the system that I've ever heard and I don't think I've heard it anywhere else. [laughs] MC: I tell the kids that and you know what it's like a light bulb going off in their head. They're like getting so upset because, "When are we gonna get Recognized? When are we gonna do this? When are--" I said, "Stop it. This is a short term thing. How are you gonna go fight and risk your life for freedom if you have no idea what it's like not to have it? Lose your freedom?" SY: That's so smart [laughs]. MC: It's just common sense. SY: And when, did you sort of have an 'ah ha' moment when that occurred to you? MC: Oh my gosh, um yeah I don't know, just came to me. I mean it's just like, isn't that what it's all about? SY: I just spilled tea all over myself, just so you know and it's this weird tea that has twigs in it. MC: I see that. SY: I'm having like really a day [laughs]. I'm fine. I'm fine. I just was like, what, why am I like suddenly warm? Oh I spilled tea on myself. Let me go back to what you were saying because that's so interesting. So are there any memorable mo--when you sort of when people say, "Oh what do you do Madonna"? And you're like "Oh I'm actually a barber at Norwich." And they say, "Oh, what's your job like? Tell me some stories." What are the stories you tell people? MC: Oh you know [laughs] that's interesting because being a military barber is probably one of the least most respected professions that people seem to have. And it's, I've come to terms with it over the years because it's just been a pretty constant, almost a bullying type of situation. My co-worker just gets so annoyed with people. But as an example, we went to my husband - he's been at his job for 30 years too and we're at this very nice dinner with people in business, contractors, and all kinds of people. Sat beside this gentleman and came up and he says so, "What do you do?" And I explained to him that I work at a military university and I'm the barber. Well you could almost see a sarcastic chuckle on his face. "Oh well what kind of a job is that? You just stand there and shave heads all day. That's a heck of a job." And he actually verbally said that at the table with my husband's other business associates and so forth. My husband was extremely upset and I felt very bad because I felt as though that was making me look, making him look bad by this guy, you know, really rudely making me look very foolish, like my job was very unworthy, like there's no -- anybody could do that. And I just thought for a moment and my 9 husband was getting ready to, you know, defend me. He's so sweet. And I just stopped him and I looked at the man and I said, "You know," I said, "I really love my job." I said, "My job serves a great purpose at the university that I work at." And I said, "Not only does it serve a great purpose there." I said, "But it's done very well for me." And I said, "And I actually do very well as a contractor at the military university." And he just sort of sat there and didn't quite know what to, what to say about that and afterwards a lady over there she looked at me, she said, "I'm so glad you put him in his place." In other words, you know, he just thought he was something very special and just, you know, but we get that all the time. SY: Really? MC: Yeah, all the time. SY: Why do you think that is? MC: I don't know. I guess they think it's, I don't know they just, even here sometimes I feel as though that we are probably the least respected business or contractors here. Until you need us and then suddenly, "Oh wow we need the haircuts." But everyone else in fact we went to get these rolodex done, this was like recently, and the gal up on UP or Jackman Hall sent an email back to my co-partner letting her know that we were not a priority at this university. SY: That's hurtful. MC: It's, yeah, I mean we're huge, we're doing 3,000 haircuts a month, you know, and we don't ask a lot from the university. We've really focused on getting here and doing our job and, you know, but we do need their help with this rolodex because we don't have any way of getting the students names to get this set up and it's very important we get this set up. And they just that was an email that was sent back that we were definitely not a priority. SY: And you take care of every single student in the Corps. MC: We take care of every single student. SY: Multiple times a month. MC: Multiple times a month. SY: Mhm, huh. MC: Yeah. So it's interesting how people's perspective of the--our work is, and I don't know. SY: But at the same time lots of members of the community who aren't students also end up in your chair, right? And so you often-- MC: They do. SY: You probably cut the hair of the administration sometimes? MC: We do. SY: And does that change the dynamic in the relationship? MC: No I mean they come in, they're great customers, we service all of them, all of them. Any faculty that's in uniform gets served in our shop, you know. They get a haircut. 10 SY: Yeah I would imagine that it would--that maybe that might make you feel more respected at times. Like those relationships? MC: Well it's interesting because a lot of the faculty, you would think that Dave Magida and the president wants that service extended to the faculty because they want their hair to be in regulation with their uniform. So they figure if they offer this in our contract type of deal that they're gonna come down and get their haircut, okay? But it's interesting because especially with the professors, the students we certainly don't expect anything from the students, but the professors because they're getting their haircut for free they think the university, they even won't leave my girl a dollar tip, you know. Which that's not in good taste, you know? So obviously they don't respect. If they respect the fact that this young lady is really cutting their hair and even whatever as the university they should still show some sort of support to the young lady that's done the service to them. And I find that offensive when they're not leaving my girls a dollar for their haircut. They're doing beautiful haircuts on them. SY: Yeah and if you were going to get your haircut in town you would leave a tip for the barber. MC: You would certainly leave a tip for the barber. So I see that as disrespectful. SY: Yeah huh. MC: Yeah. SY: But it also sounds like you've managed not to internalize it. That like you know you do a good job, you feel good about it and mostly you're able to not take on that judgment or disrespect? MC: Yeah, we don't treat them any different. I mean they still come in and we were, you know we do their hair and it's up them, you know. I mean, I feel [coughs] excuse me that if they thought they were paying maybe they don't understand that tip especially for the girl should still be there. SY: Yeah maybe they don't know. There should be like a PR campaign you know what I mean? Like tip your barber [both laugh]. How did you get into cosmetology? What was your, when did you decide that is what you wanted to do? MC: Right out of high school. Yeah I went to college for that right out of high school and then ended up doing music pretty much full time for 10 years. And that's why ended up coming back into it. SY: I was just gonna say you also have a whole other career. MC: Yeah. SY: So can you talk about that a little bit? What is it that you do? MC: Oh music is just wonderful, you know, it's been a great gift. My dad was musician and passed it on and so music has been part of my life. It's been a lot of fun. SY: And you're a fiddler? MC: I am, but I also ran my own band. I've run my own band. I play a lot of different, like seven different instruments, yeah, bass player in my band. But I also wanted to reach out and do as much as I could as far as my profession goes to. So I've served on the board of Barbers and Cosmetologists. I was on the board for 5 and a half years, and they made me chairman of the board for like 3 of those years. I got to go to a barber convention which is really close to [laughs] what is the convention with all those really crazy guys well a barber convention is close to that. 11 SY: Like a Star Trek convention? MC: Like oh my gosh that was such a riot. And then I was chosen to be a subject matter expert and what the subject matter expert does is that go and we create the state boards, national state boards for the barber test. So I, that was kind of interesting to reach out in my field and learn a few more things. I fought for, I went to the legislature because our legislature here in Vermont wanted to combine the cosmetologist and the barber license all in one and call it a go. And I fought for the barbers because that would basically shut down every barbershop in the state, because those cosmetologists would eat them up and spit them out. And I knew that and the only reason he was fighting for it was because he had some cosmetologists that wanted to open up up a barbershop and you can't. The rule, the law says, there's separate licenses and so I had to really go and fight him at the legislature. And we won. So still they're separate licenses so the barber still has his business, and the cosmetologist has her business so. SY: Do you have both licenses? MC: I have both, yes. SY: You have both licenses. Oddly my grandfather is in the Cosmetology Hall of Fame, there's like a weird bust of his head. And who knew Cosmetology Hall of Fame existed? But apparently it does because he used to write the certification exams for cosmetologists in New York State in like the fifties. MC: There you go. SY: But anyway there's literally a bronze bust of his head. So odd [laughs]. MC: How neat is that? SY: It's very cool. Jacob J. Yahm in the Cosmetology Hall of Fame. Um I don't know if I, I feel this was like a short but sweet interview. I'm not sure if I have any more questions. Do you have any other sort of last thoughts about your time at Norwich? Do you plan on working here until you retire? What's next for you? MC: I'm hoping that Norwich is still pretty comfortable with us. I think we're certainly providing the service that they're hoping comes out of that barbershop. I, you know, I plan on hopefully being a contractor here as long as they'll let me. I may not always be the physical one standing behind the chair because as I get older here, it is a very physical job. SY: I was gonna ask about that. MC: So my body's starting to take toll. SY: Is there, are there things, like is it your arms and your wrists? MC: Yeah my arm, I've got you know my elbow is, tendonitis in my shoulder. These clippers are heavy and you're standing. It's really a job doing 3,000 haircuts, pushing that through. This is, you know, this is a huge physical job and so I'm starting to feel that. But that doesn't mean I won't make sure that the person standing behind my chair isn't well trained to take my place so. SY: And you also need to keep, you know, if you hurt yourself cutting hair that also means probably you can't play music right? 12 MC: Right their both pretty physical. The music is not as demanding as this 8 hour, you know, grueling haircutting is. This is a tough one. Twenty year old is perfect in there [laughs]. Pushing 60 not so much [laughs], so yeah. SY: I don't know if I have any more questions. Any other thoughts about women at Norwich and how their transition occurred? You said they seemed scared--did you sort of, did people talk to you? Did they say to you? Were you sort of like a mother confessor a little bit where they talked to you what they were going through? MC: It was so strict back then that no one dared have conversations. So the young ladies wouldn't have dared to confide in me at that stage in the game. But I'm very excited to see how young ladies have grown and they're, they're heading up our university. So I think we've grown a lot. SY: So you've seen them get much more confident? MC: Oh they're confident and they're smart and they're gonna be great leaders. SY: That's fabulous. I don't have any last questions that was terrific and now you still have a couple more minutes on your lunch hour. MC: There we go. [laughs]

Many countries with scheduled elections this year face a difficult choice in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic: how to balance public health considerations with holding a free and fair election. Learn more from NDI Senior Associate and Director of Electoral Programs Pat Merloe and Program Director Julia Brothers as they talk about democratic back-sliding during this crisis, electoral integrity, and ways civil society organizations can still make a difference.
Find us on: SoundCloud | Apple Podcasts | Spotify | RSS | Google Play
Pat Merlow: In the public health crisis, especially where governments are weak or people are suspicious of governments, trusted voices are really important to get out accurate information.
Julia Brothers: Hello, this is Julia Brothers. I'm the Program Director for Elections at the National Democratic Institute. Welcome to Dem Works.
JB: Around the world, the COVID-19 pandemic is sewing insecurity among the public, which can be exploited by authoritarians to consolidate power in sideline democratic institutions. It also poses severe technical, political, and social threats to elections themselves.
In many countries, the effects of the virus may strain citizen relationships with government and elected [inaudible] officials, intensify political tensions and the potentials for violence, disenfranchise voters and increase conditions for democratic backsliding.
Today I'm joined by Pat Merlow, senior associate and director of electoral programs at NDI. Welcome to the podcast, Pat. Thank you for being here.
Pat Merlow: Hi, Julia.
JB: So the COVID-19 crisis is causing enormous challenges for every country, including those with scheduled elections this year. What are the biggest concerns deciding whether to hold or postpone elections?
PM: Elections must be held in ways that safeguard public health and in ways that ensure genuine opportunities for the electorate to vote. Universal and equal suffrage, which is in every modern constitution, means inclusion, not exclusion. So we have to also hold elections in ways where the political parties and the candidates have a fair chance to compete for votes without a playing field that's being manipulated or intentionally or unintentionally tilted in one party's favor.
So striking a proper democratic balance of public safety and credible election processes is different and really difficult in every country. Depends a lot on the level of economic and technological development in the country on the nature of social cohesion versus divisions in the country and political polarization.
So in many countries where NDI works, the concern is whether authoritarians will rush through elections with undue public health risks in order to gain an electoral advantage or to postpone elections under conditions that advantage their attempts to gain and maintain more power.
A second troubling circumstance in countries that are unstable or prone to various kinds of violence, where constrains of the public health crisis can be used by malign actors to flood the population with this information... I mean we're hearing this term infodemic; also hate speech and other means to scapegoat religious or ethnic minorities, LGBTQ people or women in order to gain political advantage.
That's not all the countries where NDI works, but even those are neither authoritarian nor fragile states, the COVID-19 crisis is still posing gigantic challenges both on the public health and to electoral integrity.
JB: Right. I mean these factors present themselves as challenges to electoral integrity, not just where there might be bad faith actors that are trying to utilize this crisis to consolidate power, but also just in addressing basic issues related to how to make sure that you're maximizing participation during a public health crisis.
What are some of the factors that these countries would need to think about in terms of actually implementing elections either during a public health crisis or immediately after.
PM: There really are a number of factors that have to be considered. So the first thing that comes to everybody's mind of course is what do you do? Can people actually go to polling places or should they be under some sort of the shelter in place lockdown-like circumstances.
That doesn't just affect whether to vote. That really has to do with whether you can register to vote safely or not. In countries where there are not a high level of electronic engagement where the digital divide falls really widely across broad swipes of the population, gathering those people into places to register to vote or to vote is really the only means of doing it. So the question of a postponement becomes really an operative question.
Then we're concerned with what are the conditions for the postponement and how does that interrelate with the declarations of states of emergency, whether they're being done properly with the kinds of constraints on limitations on powers or whether they're being done in ways that usurp power.
JB: Yeah. I think one of the major concerns, especially thinking about citizens being able to participate in the process, is that during a pandemic, if voters are concerned about going out to vote, chances are that that's not going to be an equal distribution among the population, where there are a vulnerable populations that will be more impacted.
You'll see disproportionate levels of low turnout among certain communities like senior citizens or persons with disabilities or women who disproportionately have the burden of childcare and are in a situation where you don't have options for even temporary childcare because of social distancing regulations.
Well, this seems like a good place to take a short break.
For more than 35 years, NDI has been honored to work with courageous and committed pro-democracy activists and leaders around the world to help countries develop the institution's practices and skills necessary for democracy success. Welcome back.
JB: So we talked a bit about the postponements that we're seeing around the world in terms of electoral timelines. Are election observers relevant during electoral delays, especially if there's restrictions on movement in the population if they're under some form of shelter in place or lockdown.
PM: Yeah. So Julie, you mentioned that NDI works in more than 70 countries and in fact, working with nonpartisan citizen groups and coalitions and various organizations is one of the hallmarks of NDI's work over more than 35 years now and certainly the 25 years where I've been involved.
There's a network of citizen election observers, there are nine of them in various regions of the world and they're amalgamated in more than 250 organizations from 90 countries. Those organizations have been sharing best practices and ideas about what can be done.
So let me just quickly mention a couple of them. There are four areas where they have been able to focus. One are ways to assist; that is, to assist public health agencies and the electoral authorities to bring about safe elections and fair elections.
The second is ways to address authoritarian opportunism and how states of emergency and various conditions are being used by those who would usurp the citizens of power.
The third are ways to address disinformation, hate speech and attempts at hyperpolarization that influence and create unfair conditions for elections.
The fourth way is to address, as you mentioned earlier, examples of where a health crisis can lead to disenfranchisement or further tilt the playing field so that it's an unfair circumstance.
JB: Yeah, I mean you mentioned especially tracking the authoritarian leaders who are potentially taking advantage of the health crisis to grab power and subvert democracy and in some unstable countries, this can threaten heightened instability.
What can election servers be doing to address that or what are they currently doing to address that?
PM: The most important thing is citizen election observers in all kinds of countries have been time tested and over the series of elections cycles two, three, even four in many countries, they've built national networks and they've established themselves as trusted voices.
In a public health crisis, especially where governments are weak or people are suspicious of government, trusted voices are really important to get out accurate information from the health authorities, accurate information from the electoral authorities about what to do, where to do things and so on.
Also, they have networks that can collect information; even during lockdowns. You and I were in a conversation with one of the partner organizations with whom we work in Sri Lanka just last week. The head of that organization is working on a civil society task force.
That task force is considering how to gain access to women's shelters, to older people's homes, to places where there's foster children's care, drug treatment centers, and so on because these are vulnerable populations that are being hit hard by the crisis.
One of the things that he pointed out in our conversation is that the government is taking advantage of the postponement of the election for electoral advantage by handing out dry goods to citizens and even medical supplies through the political party rather than as an impartial governmental service to the people.
So the question that he posed was, even during lockdown, is there a way that our network of over 1,000 people could begin to document this and report it so that we can lift up to the public the nature of this problem that's coming about and see if we can't get some accountability and get them to cut back.
So even during a lockdown, it's possible for the citizen observer groups to do things that are extraordinarily relevant.
JB: Yeah, I mean it seems like there are certainly opportunities for electoral observers to be monitoring the kinds of things that they would normally be looking at in a pre-election period when their elections are delayed... Issues related to is the government still helping to create conditions for a credible and competitive process in the midst of a public health emergency. Are conditions being put in place to ensure that marginalized populations are not sidelined from the process.
But it also kind of expands it a little bit too in that there are these potentially other issues that that groups may consider looking at. Like you mentioned, how health resources are being distributed and what kinds of policy changes are being made and how were those being made?
What's the decision-making process around things like delaying the elections, around emergency voting procedures? Are they inclusive? Are all the parties being brought in to them? Is civil society be brought into these discussions and taking a look at some of these new conditions that observers may otherwise not necessarily be monitoring in a pre-election period.
I think the other issue here is there are constraints here in terms of potentially being able to deploy a bunch observers out into the field to collect information if you're in a lockdown situation.
So it's been interesting talking with groups to see how they're thinking creatively about how they can collect some of this information remotely. What kind of data exists that you can collect whether it's open data sources from the government looking at budgets, looking at how budgets are changing and how resources are moving.
You mentioned looking at disinformation, being able to monitor social media and seeing what data could be collected from that.
It's been interesting to see how citizen election observers around the world are getting creative and still doing their jobs while being sometimes trapped at home.
PM: Absolutely. You mentioned the disinformation... One of the things that we've been seeing is that in Russia for example, they have been making use of the COVID crisis to begin to track people even more carefully to introduce facial recognition technologies and cameras.
The term that's been throwing around is cybergulags being created there. With China's facial recognition technologies and the way that's been used to suppress the weaker minorities, China has been introducing that working with governments and other places in the world to try to get that into voter registration so that you have biometric voter registration data that includes facial recognition technology.
So in this era, getting access to government decision making, getting access even to the health data and disaggregated by gender, by vulnerable groups and so on is part of the work that election observers normally do. Demanding open electoral data can lead easily to the same kinds of advocacy around open health data.
One of the other things I thought that you've touched on that's interesting is the states of emergencies and the relationships between that and postponement. There's more than 45 countries at this point that have postponed elections at the national and sub-national level.
Not all of them are problematic by any means, but in a lot of countries, there have been extended states of emergency without any end date. The postponements have no end date on them.
One of the things that election observers can do is to join with... And many of them are human rights organizations and bringing about the rules that have been established in the international arena for limiting the duration of states of emergencies, that the measures that are taken have to be proportionate to the nature of the threat to the nation to bring those issues up and do advocacy around them and to help those of us in the international arena be aware of where these problems are in various countries.
JB: With that, I think we'll take a quick break. We'll be back after this quick message.
One of the things that Secretary Albright has said is that it's absolutely essential for young people to understand that they must participate and that they are the energy behind democracy.
You can hear more from other democracy heroes by listening to our Dem Works podcast. It is available on iTunes and SoundCloud.
So before the break, we were talking about the role that citizen election monitors are playing in the COVID-19 crisis and its impact on electoral integrity. Are there other considerations that citizen election groups should be thinking about in the need for electoral integrity in their countries?
I'm thinking especially related to how groups can make sure that their observers are safe while also being able to collect information and an advocate for critical processes and good governance.
PM: That's really a critical question, Julia. A good example that comes to mind is in Mali, which has had very few reported cases of COVID-19, there was a parliamentary election just two weeks ago. The government, for national security reasons, has had to postpone those elections for almost two years and they were really in a phase of saying we need to push it ahead. In fact, there had not been a reported COVID-19 death until just a few hours before the election date.
So it went forward and the citizen observers with which NDI has been working in that country in the weeks leading up to that advocated that the polling stations had to have masks for the staff; had to have gloves; had to have hand sanitizers or hand washing stations because hand sanitizer is hard to get in a lot of places in Mali.
They made sure that their observers had those materials themselves. I think 1,500 observers went out to polling stations across the country. In their own headquarters and gathering data, there was social distancing that took place and they did a lot of checking in with their observers about how they were doing, how they were feeling over the course of the day.
So one thing that the citizen observers can do is to join with organizations that are health advocates for those places where either voter registration is about to take place or voting is about to take place to ensure that the conditions minimize the risk.
We just saw this over this past weekend in the elections that were held in South Korea. Whether or not you might think that the election should go forward, there was a country where there's a lot of public confidence in what the government has been doing and in the integrity of the election authorities and voter turnout was not terribly affected by this.
So there is something that can be done immediately and as you have mentioned, there are numerous things that can be looked at by citizen observers without ever really leaving their homes or their headquarters. One of those, as you mentioned, is disinformation. Our partners in Georgia, for example, have uncovered a link between Russian propaganda, which has gone up around disinformation around COVID-19 and linking it to destabilizing public trust in Georgia's government.
There's a really interesting report that they came out with just last week on that front. So how does COVID-19 and elections interface is something that can be explored in a number of dimensions.
JB: We've talked mostly about the work of nonpartisan civil society organizations and their own countries that are confronting this challenge. Is there a role for international election observers on terms of electoral oversight during a public crisis, especially knowing that they will have some of the same if not even more constraints than citizen election monitors?
PM: It's a very difficult role at the moment for international election observers. We've been in touch with our colleagues at the African Union and the European Union, at the United Nations and Organization of American States and so on. Many of them have been bringing teams home from countries. Some of them have been postponing or canceling sending teams out.
At the same time, there are a number of things that international observers can do. As you mentioned, you can look at things from a distance. You can review the legal framework, which is part of what every international election observation and citizen observers do.
You can compare what has been done over the past few cycles of elections, where recommendations have been made, whether those recommendations were acted upon or whether you find the same problem repeating in the next report and prioritize the issues that you might look to and even be able to inform diplomats and others about things that they should be raising with government.
You can look at disinformation and other information disorder, hate speech and so on, from afar. Certainly you can tune in with what the critical people inside a country who are working on these issues have been doing. You can conduct some long distance interviews with key people in the citizen groups and in the election authorities and the political leaders to learn their opinions about what the state of play is in the country and their concerns going forward.
But when it comes time to put people on the ground, we have to look at travel restrictions. We have to look at countries where foreigners have been seen as people who bring in COVID-19 and there's been violence against them; so security of observers is important. And the numbers of people who may go or where they may be deployed depending upon hotspots in the country and so on.
So this is something that over the course of this year will be a challenge. And the next thing will be a challenge for international election observers is that as so many elections are being postponed, they're being postponed probably towards the end of this year or the beginning of next year, which already has many scheduled elections. So there may be an overwhelming demand for which the supply of financial and human resources runs short.
JB: It does seem like at this point, especially knowing that international election observers in a lot of the places just can't deploy right now, one of the roles to play here is really trying to raise the voices of the citizen groups on the ground that are able to actually do some on the ground observation.
Also keeping in mind, especially for the places we're concerned about authoritarian overreach, thinking about how we can use some of these international mechanisms to push back on democratic backsliding and mitigate tensions in places where it could potentially be a bit more unstable with the current situation.
PM: You're right. That's the contribution that the international community can do, too... To really amplify the voices of the citizenry and to augment their efforts to bring about respect for civil and political rights.
When you have a network of thousands of citizens who have taken the time and the effort to go out of their homes, into the street, to look at what the nature of the threats of violence or vote buying or intimidation to document how these things of disproportionally driven women or restricted women's political and electoral participation, would they have taken the time to go into polling stations, sometimes under threat or coercion?
These people have become a solid core of citizen empowerment in so many countries around the world, and each of those citizens, of course, is using WhatsApp and other ways of talking and they're influencers within a country.
They can gather information, they can give accurate information out, but as they report up through their networks, if there's good collaboration between the reputable citizen groups and the credible international election observers and the international community more broadly, we can use that cooperation that we've been working on over the years to try to bring attention, even when it's hard to shine a light directly on problems in countries that are being affected by this crisis and facing political challenges and stress.
JB: Well, thank you again, Pat, for joining us. I think this has been a particularly relevant discussion. I'd also like to say thank you to our listeners.
To learn more about NDI or to listen to other Dem Works podcasts, please visit our website@www.ndi.org
PM: Thank you, Julia and thank you to the listeners.





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FEMALE REPRESENTATIVE AND RESISTANCE IN OKA RUSMINI'S EARTH DANCE Mita Hati Priyantini English Literature, Faculty of Language and Arts, Surabaya State University. Mitahati@rocketmail.com Mamik Triwedawati SS. M.Pd. English Department, Faculty of Language and Arts, Surabaya State University Abstrak Novel Earth Dance merupakan novel karya Oka Rusmini yang menyuarakan kaum subordinasi seperti wanita maupun queer. Dalam tesis ini, penelitian di lakukan terhadap dua tokoh representatif yakni Telaga sebagai tokoh utama dalam novel dan Kenten sebagai karakter queer. Dengan demikian, dapat di rumuskan tiga masalah yaitu (1) Bagaimana penggambaran representatif wanita dalam novel Earth Dance oleh Oka Rusmini; (2) Bagaimana representatif memimpin perlawanan dalam novel Earth Dance oleh Oka Rusmini; dan (3) Bagaimana dampak dari perlawanan terhadap tokoh-tokoh dalam novel Earth Dance oleh Oka Rusmini. Data dari tesis ini di ambil dari novel sebagai sumber utama dan membaca intensif untuk langkah berikutnya. Untuk menjawab semua masalah, penelitian menggunakan teori Feminisme untuk menggambarkan representatif dan perlawanan perempuan, baik penyebab dan dampakanya. Penelitian kepustakaan di gunakan sebagai data pendukung dalam analisis. Selanjutnya, deskripsi analisis di gunakan untuk menjelaskan hasil analisis. Setelah merumuskan tiga masalah dan langkah penelitian di atas, di temukan bahwa representatif wanita yang melakukan perlawanan di sebabkan karena adanya dominasi laki-laki yang meminggirkan wanita dalam konteks budaya Bali. Namun, pada akhirnya perlawanan wanita tetap mendapatkan hukuman dari para dewa yang harus di terima. Kata Kunci: wanita, representatif dan perlawanan. Abstract Earth Dance is novel by Oka Rusmini which championing the subordinate group such as woman or queer. In this thesis, the study is focused on two representative characters; they are Telaga as the main character and Kenten as a queer character in the novel. Thus, there are three problems which will describe in this study (1) how is female representative depicted in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance; (2) how is female representative leads to female resistance in Oka Rusmini's Earth dance; and (3) how is the impact of female resistance in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance characters. The data from this thesis are taken from novel as the main source and intensive reading for the next step. To answer the three problems, the research use theory of Feminism to depict female representative and resistance, whether the cause and impact to the doer. Library research is used as supporting data in analysis. Next is the analysis description used to explain the result of analysis. after the discussion the three problems above, the result is, that female representative did the resistance is because the male domination which subordinate them in the context of Balinese custom. Yet, in the end, these female resistance have to willingly accept their punishment from the gods. Key words : woman, representative and resistance. INTODUCTION The term of women derives from rakta swanita which means women's seed. Balinese custom were originates from Hinduism, in which the concept of Balinese women is contiguous as Hindu women; they are born, lived and are bound with their desa adat. The concept of of unity between men and women is called arddanisvarimurthi in which men and women are described to complete each other. While Balinese custom establish the joint responsibility of a marriage couple for sociopolitical and religious duties, the earlier ethnography of Bali has often associated men as the heads of the households with the role of representing households (Nakatani, 1997:727). Nakatani found that Balinese women have not only double but also triple roles. This research is done on women's roles in her family as a wife and mother, their social roles and a breadwinner in the custom. At the end, she calls Balinese women as wonder women. If super women are demanded to do their house chores as well as their career, 'wonder women' are demanded to do their role in desa adat as one of the characteristic of Balinese women. Bali which is known as the patriarchal system which oppressed women to will under men's dominance. Balinese custom arranged women to submissive to their husband though the women is in a high caste or lower caste status without a protest (Chaitanya, 2010:4-5). For Balinese women, the primary tasks are to produce a good quality children, fostering balance and harmony within family and to work as a family team in society/adat (Suyadnya, 2006:6). In the previous age, Balinese women are work in the house and made songket to earn more money and fulfill the household needs. Married women in Balinese have also roles in maintaining the ritual represented their household. They must take care of preparation and presentation of offering, ceremonial gift-giving and ritual assistance as their main task or they divide the certain task, especially the presentation of offering and gift-giving to their daughter or another female member in the house (Nakatani, 1997:736-737). Through Nakatani's definition of women, that the society prejudice women's main chores are to maintaining the household and take care of their family and it has become obstacles for their career. Most of Oka rusmini's works break taboo to tradition and vividly talking about body and erotic caused much controversy among her family, friends and even society who read her works. They might be disturbed, but she ignored. As an author, she can do something expressing her dissatisfaction, unhappiness and anxiety via the written words. Oka had produced three novel, collection of short stories and poetry, those are, Tarian Bumi (Earth Dance translated into English by Lontar foundation and German as Erdentanz), Putu Menolong Tuhan (Putu Helps His God, translated in English by Vern Cork), Sagra, Pemahat Abad (The Sculptor of the Century, translated in English by Pamela Allen), Tempurung, and Pattiwangi. In every her novels, poetry, and short stories, Oka Rusmini works are ingenious in the sense that focus almost solely on female characters and convey feminine perspective in a consistent and provocative manner. In addition to critiquing the caste system, which in her view is very much shaped and controlled by patriarchal system in Balinese Hindu, Oka depicts competition and tension among her main female characters, and this competition can often be fierce, sometimes even be violent. She explores without reservation the positive as well as the negative qualities of Balinese women from both social groups., but at the same time she never forget to reiterate that patriarchy bears the ultimate responsibility for the social problem related to the caste system. Based on background of the study above, it can be simplify the three problems which emerge as the discussion in this study. How is the female representative depicted in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance? How does female representative leads to female resistance in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance? How is the impact of female resistance in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance characters? In analyzing the data, this study use the theory of feminism. The theory of female resistance contains the definition of female representative which leads to resistance and the impact to the main character in the novel. RESEARCH METHOD In carrying out the study, the library reasearch, which used for literary work deal with this study, is basically descriptive and qualitative research. Most of the data collected from many speech dialogue in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance as the object analysis which define into twenty chapter in the novel. Earth Dance was firstly published by Indonesia Tera, Magelang, Indonesia in 2000 and was originally serialized in the newspaper Republika, 4 march-8 April 1997. The data is analyzed by using feminism criticism, which is why the librarian research is used as the method. Conducting this analysis will be used to answer the questions in the statement of the problems. The procedure of analysis divided as follows; (1) The first step is to collect data speeches, thoughts, and quotations which have relation to the discussion, (2) Then clasify the data of speeches, thought and quotations to the Telaga and Kenten as the object of analysis, (3) Selecting quotations of the data are finally analyzed by the theories that are mentioned above to describe the concept of female resistance, (4) The ideal characteristic of female resistance begins with the description of female in this novel in order to know what is the impact on Telaga's character as the main character through other characters, (5) Finally, to depict the characterization of Telaga and the impact of female resistance to indicate the significance of resistance in Telaga's personality, the analysis is done by the theories that have been mentioned in preeceding explanation. ANALYSIS The first question will be revealed the main problem that focuse on how female representative in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance. In this discussion, the female representative divide into three sub-chapters; (1) Physical description of Ida Ayu Telaga Pidada as a brahmana, (2) physical description of Kenten as a lesbian character, and (3) diferentiate of language uses between brahmana and sudra. The second question will be revealed the second problem which focuse on how is female resistance in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance. The discussion is emerge the main character rebells her own fate as a brahmana and female queer character who ignores the society which determine her as queer. The last question is, how is the impact of female resistance to the main character will be revealed by the discussion which divide into four sub-chapters; (1) punishment for rebel the caste system, (2) Telaga exilled from griya, (3) Telaga changing caste, and (4) Kenten isolated from society. Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance brings up the issues of gender and class-society. Narrated by Ida Ayu Telaga surrounded by four women who shapes Telaga's character and resist from her own custom, which in Telaga's mind was unfair. Telaga is a brahmana woman who feels trapped and unhappy with her own caste and custom. Her mother was a sudra who ambitious to married only to brahmana man. One the issue which cause problematic among woman is physical appearance. It is like that they were race as the most beautiful among others. Physical appearance of main character in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance Telaga is describe as beauty as a goddess and belongs to brahmana. Made the other girls envy of her. When she was danced oleg, it had always been a public secret that nobody could surpass Ida Ayu Telaga Pidada. Oleg is a dance of love, a dance about delights of romance, about the beauty of courtship (Earth Dance, 2011:13). One of the prominently character named Kenten. She is a best friend of Sekar and also the female queer character. She is a commoner and living only with her mother. Her father was disappeared and doesn't mention in the novel. she was a woman with ten men power and well built phsically strong. Kenten realizes since the begining of her different in desire. Although, she has to play the role of woman, especially in every month when a blood flows between her two legs. She needs to cleanse her body every month. Language system to caste is describes in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance in some of dialogues and monologue of Telaga's, as in evident in Telaga's speak as third-person narratives below: "Telaga considered him as an idiot, but an idiot who she had to approach with respectful titles: aji – noble father, or ratu – lord. He was a man without character; a man who could be proud of nothing but his masculinity. How could she trust him? As a child, Ida Ayu Telaga Pidada had ashamed to call him her respected father. Telaga's father had an Ida Bagus as a father and Ida Ayu as a mother, so people said his noble blood was of the very highest carat. And so, Telaga had to call this man she hardly knew "Ratu"." (P.17) Through the quotation above is proving that Language uses was strictly adhered by Balinese people. In the past infringement of these rules were harshly punished by fines and even debt slavery. Today, the extreme of language use have been largely abandoned because these sanction can no longer be applied. In Balinese caste system, everything has arranged even in the language uses. The Balinese language is itself a hierarchical, while most words have only one form and is thus insensitie to status; some 1,500 everyday words have two or more lexemes which are hierachically ranked and thus status highly sensitive. The basic rule is that the inferior must uses refined when speaking to a superior caste, whereas superior may use less refined to inferior caste (Howe, 2005:113). In Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance brings up the issues of gender and class-society. Narrated by Ida Ayu Telaga surrounded by four women who shapes Telaga's character and resist from her own custom, which in Telaga's mind was unfair. Telaga is a brahmana woman who feels trapped and unhappy with her own caste and custom. Her mother was a sudra who ambitious to married only to brahmana man. Throughout her entire childhood, Telaga witnesses the oppresive forces of adat and their impact on her mother, wondering if this is what it means to be a noble woman. She can only oppose the practice silently, asking herself many questions while watching the harsh life that her mother has to endure as an ex-sudra woman who has dared to enter the sacred brahmana realm. Telaga's own daily life is mostly confined by the griya walls and the complex rules that regulate her almost every move. Telaga's state of mind with regard to all these restriction is conveyed by free indirect speech. "Unfortunately, she could not enjoy that time for long. Telaga inevitably had to return this borrowed era to Life. She wished she could trick her way back into childhood, even just for a day or two. If only she could, she would grab that time and hide it so Life couldn't find it and ask Telaga for its return. But Telaga could not persuade all-powerful Life to compromise. Life insisted on the following of rigid rules: rules that could not be bent, even slightly." (P.57) The quotation blur's the narrator voice and what occur's in Telaga's mind. The narrator is involved emotionally in Telaga's lament concerning her lost childhood because of her noble status. Telaga is actually complaining about the gods' cruel decision to snatch her childhood so quickly from her, but such complain can only be uttered in the form of a monologue. And moreover, it is softened to the point that it sounds more like nagging than protesting, as if Telaga wants to be sure that it will not offend the gods. Differ from Telaga, Kenten is sudra and the queer character who has different desire for mostly normal women. in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance who describe as a stubborn woman. No one dared to bother her. Like Luh Sekar, she disdains men, but whereas Luh Sekar is willing to use men to achieve her ambitions, Luh Kenten does not need men and never intends to marry one for any reason. The novel describes her as a lesbian. She feels sexually aroused by looking at Sekar's naked body, but develops an aversion towards her own feminine body. As the result of resistance, female representative in the novel are willingly to receive the consequences of their desire against the rules. The main characters in the novel; Telaga and queer character; Kenten, are the most impacted because of their desire to resistance from the persistent custom which subordinate them. The consequences which had to be submissive by Telaga and Kenten will impact on their entire life. Delueze explain that power do not repression of desire, instead it is the expansion of desire (Colebrook, 2002:91). Ideology is take the concepts of how individual acts against their interest. Colebrook framed that feminity seen in the Jane Austen's or any novelistic composition of character describes on the fabrics, skin colour, gestures, rhythms of speech and body parts – the thiness of waist which it is become the misspresented of ideological stereotypes of woman. Woman is a group of socialy coded affect and intensities that have gone into making up the image of personhood (Colebrook, 2002:93). It is the law of Balinese hinduism if a noble woman who marry man bellow their caste will be exilled from her house. She no longger posses nobility and she cann't posses everything from her former house. Her child will be her husband caste (Avelling, 2006:2). Telaga and Wayan couldn't bear the feelings any longer even they tried harder to ignore it. So, they decide to face every risk which confronts them. Begin with Telaga who exilled from griya and do not allowed to bring anything from her former house. She her child must join to Wayan's caste as a sudra and living with her mother-in-law who opposes her marry to her only son. Yet, because Telaga is no longer a brahmana, she must address everyone in griya with the highest title – Ratu. The worst of it, Wayan found dead in his studio. Telaga had to endure Wayan's mother and sister who since begining didn't accept she coming to their house. Luh Gumbreg who realize that Telaga didn't get blessing from her family before she married with Wayan, ask Telaga to held pattiwangi ritual. The ritual which is remove the noble status from noble woman who marry a commoner. The ritual is also become the reminder for the others noble women to not do the same thing as Telaga. CONCLUSION Oka Rusmini is a Balinese writer who assert Balinese tradition in every her novel. Earth Dance is one of her novel which brings up the issue of female representative who resist against subordination. The main character, Ida Ayu Telaga as the narrator, represent female in high class-caste society who against the people grouping in Hinduism. Divide people into four categories and determine them based those categories. The higher the class-caste, the more they receive privilages and subordinate the lowest caste. While, the queer character – Kenten as a commoner must facing society's judge because her queerness. Both Telaga and Kenten who are representative their female in Balinese society and resist with their own ways. Telaga choose to betray her caste by marrying a commoner – Wayan Sasmita, and receive insult whether from people in griya even her own mother and from Wayan's family. She is no longer a noble woman, instead she is a commoner such her husband. Her child also bear the caste of her husband as a commoner. Through Telaga's action, she unintentionally purify her mother's past mistake by marry a brahmana man. Kenanga who was a pragina is a sudra who ambitious marry only to a brahmana man, after she finally marry Ida Bagus Tugur – Telaga's father, she never living a peace. Ida Bagus Tugur was marry Kenanga only to posses Kenanga's body. Differ from Telaga, Kenten as a female queer resist from her society by ignoring people's jugdements. Kenten is Kenanga's close friend. They become closer because of people in the village consider them as a shame. Since Kenanga was kid, her father caught for joining the Communist party, and since then people judge her as a communist's daughter. Kenten who desire for Kenanga's body could only keeping a secret for herself. No one she could confide in, although everybody in the village knews her intimacy with Kenanga. It can be conclude that female representative in Oka Rusmini's Earth Dance resist from rules that subordinate them. 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