Frigoletto, Robert 1-1 Transcription
In: CIC Frigoletto, Robert 1-1 - Final.pdf
Part one of an interview with Robert and Joanne Frigoletto. Topics include: Robert's grandparents came over from Grumento Nova, Italy. His parents lived in Fitchburg, MA, which is where Robert grew up. Memories from his childhood. His family owned a house in Fitchburg and a summer house on a lake in Lancaster, MA. The different summer jobs Robert worked. Food deliveries in the summer. The food Robert's family had when he was growing up. How Robert became interested in dentistry from his father. The different personalities in Robert's family. The importance of education. Robert's education. His father's dental practice. Religion in the family. His grandparents. ; 1 INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. ROBERT: She wasn't really sure, but they're from the same county in Italy, but they met here… and they married here, but -- and we were wondering because they're from the same place, which is not unusual, because you say, "Where you from?" You know, if I'm out in Chicago or San Francisco and someone's from Massachusetts—especially if I'm over in Italy, [unintelligible - 00:00:28] they're home. So you kind of get together with them automatically. Don't tell me you become friends just because of the distance. INTERVIEWER: Also, as people leave town in Italy and go to a town in the States, then you tell your friends or people… ROBERT: Then they would know somebody. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: You go to the same town. ROBERT: Yeah, but they did come over in the same town, from the same town. INTERVIEWER: Now, what year was that about…? ROBERT: Boy, that's a tough one. INTERVIEWER: No. That's not good. You did not…? ROBERT: No. INTERVIEWER: I see. Well, you can… ROBERT: Had to be the late 1800s. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, because your father was born…? ROBERT: 1905-ish or something. INTERVIEWER: Same as my father? ROBERT: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, so it must have been at the turn of the century or just before? ROBERT: Just before that. And then after that, then the sister and brother must have come over, but I don't think they came together. Just Grandpa Lewis.2 INTERVIEWER: Now beca-, first of all, let me introduced everyone. This is Linda Rosenman with the Center for Italian Culture. It's Monday, November 19 at 1:30 p.m., and we're here again, with Dr. Robert Frigoletto and his wife Joan. We have already tried this once before, but we had a corrupted card. So what I wanted to tell both of you, even if I've asked you the same questions of course, I have to ask them over again. ROBERT: Of course. We'll see if we can concise it somewhat. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. ROBERT: Not get caught running. We had such a pleasant visit last time. INTERVIEWER: We did, and I hope that you know, [unintelligible - 00:02:14] any more. ROBERT: A long time [laughter]. INTERVIEWER: Went at it [laughter]. But it ended early March. But you're talking about your grandparents who came here from Italy. And did they settle in Leominster? ROBERT: Settled in Fitchburg. INTERVIEWER: Fitchburg. And we're thinking that's the late 1800s, turn of the century. ROBERT: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And they were from the same village, which was…? ROBERT: Then my grandpa, which was same county. I don't know village. INTERVIEWER: Same county? Potenza, I think you called them. ROBERT: In the province of Potenza, in the village of Grumento Nova. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. Grumenta Nova? ROBERT: Cemento Nova? Nu something? Which used to be Sapanera. Stuff like that. Is that right? It used to be called… INTERVIEWER: Somehow they changed names. ROBERT: Sapalonara or Sapona… INTERVIEWER: Saponara, and I think they call that.3 ROBERT: Saponara, and then Mussolini changed it for some reason to Grumento Nova. INTERVIEWER: Now, are these your grandparents Frigolettos, or… ROBERT: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Okay. WIFE: His grandmother's maiden name was Padula. ROBERT: Padu… WIFE: P-A-D-U-L-A, and there's a whole… ROBERT: Oh, there's a whole… WIFE: … clan of Padulas. ROBERT: Clan of Padulas, one of which was the senator for a while. WIFE: Well, he married into the family and blown up [unintelligible - 00:03:38] with the Padulas. ROBERT: Yeah. He was the in-law. They run the -- I grew up in that farm with their father, I guess. I used to call him Uncle Mike. He was really nice, dad's cousin. WIFE: Was it your grandmother's broker? Not her father. ROBERT: Maybe. Boy, back that far? Mike. WIFE: True brother. INTERVIEWER: So Mike Padula? ROBERT: Mike Padula. And their offspring sell the tractors now. WIFE: John Deere equipment. ROBERT: John Deere equipment because that was a working farm, and I can remember drinking unpasteurized warm milk right from the udders. INTERVIEWER: Really? ROBERT: We squeezed it out and we'd drink it. WIFE: Boys. Mine though always came in bottles [laughter]. ROBERT: I don't think we did it every day. We did it to taste then to see what it was like, just for… you know, I couldn't have been four, 4 five years old then. I was in Uncle Mike's farm all the time. That was close to camp, by the way. Right around the corner. INTERVIEWER: Where was this located? WIFE: Lunenburg ROBERT: Just at the Lunenburg, Lancaster Road, where the Powell Excavation, Keating Excavation, in the city of Lunenburg. WIFE: Sort of, as you turn on the line. ROBERT: Yeah, on the Lunenburg, Lancaster line. INTERVIEWER: Now, is this where your grandmother was living? On the farm? ROBERT: I don't think so, no. I don't know. WIFE: I don't know either. ROBERT: No, they were living on Highland Avenue on the three-decker. INTERVIEWER: You mean before they got married? When you were visiting. ROBERT: No, they were living on Dana Patch, Water Street then. They had some real estate down there. They used to rent out a couple of places, and they were there on Water Street, because I can -- I still have a picture now of me today in a sandbox with a seesaw and a swing when I was maybe three, four years old, and I'm sure that was on Water Street. It was a park in Water Street. And then my grandparents bought a three-decker house on Highland Avenue up near the college. And we lived -- I don't remember this. We lived in the third floor, my brother told me recently, until my father graduated from dental school and built a very nice house half a block away, and we moved out of that now into this nice house, and one of my relatives moved into that third floor apartment. So we had Grandma on the bottom floor and two cousins, two uncles and aunts on the next two floors. INTERVIEWER: Now, getting back to the farm though, is that where your -- perhaps your mother, did she grow up on the farm? I mean, not your mother but your grandmother?5 ROBERT: Grandmother. She don't know. I don't think they were -- that was just one of the uncles, one of their brothers. I don't think she was on the farm. I don't remember her ever being heavily involved with the farm. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so did your father grow up on Water Street then? ROBERT: Father grew up on Water Street, the beginning. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember any stories that he may have told you about Water Street? ROBERT: No, that's too far back. I just remember the pictures. I don't remember anything 'til we got to Highland Avenue, which was close to the college. That's the only part I remember there. INTERVIEWER: How old were you then? ROBERT: Five to eight, four to eight, something like that. INTERVIEWER: So do you remember anything about your grandparents? ROBERT: Only the grandpa who used to fix my tricycle because he was a half a block up, and I used to bring my tricycle up to have him fix it. And he'd fix it, and of course it will break next week. I have to bring it up again. He would always do it in the cellar, left side of the house where the furnace was, and now I think of the furnace, it was one of those lined covered with asbestos. You know those old furnaces? INTERVIEWER: Coal furnace? ROBERT: Yeah. And he used to keep a little bottle of wine up in the back. He had a little wine while we talked. I didn't know what it was then. I thought it was medicine. It was medicine, he told me. I guessed grandma didn't want him to have it. He used to keep it down the cellar. That's what I think I remember. And I remember the coalman coming in, dropping coal at our home that my father built. I used to love to crawl around in that thing. I was black. I don't know why. I guess when the coalmen come I used to watch them do it, and all in dust. He used to come 6 and make [unintelligible - 00:08:38] the coal, and that's the only reason I remember some of this old stuff. Same thing with my father eventually built that place on the lake, down there at Port Barn. When we bought a new appliance for the home, we would bring the old stuff down to the lake because that was only a summer place. We called it the camp. We still call it the camp. We used to prime water from the lake with a pump on the sink to get the water going, I remember. And we used to have an icebox, and the guy used to come and deliver ice, you know, over the [Bellwoods], back on a waterproof pad and ice. I loved to chew ice. So I used to chip the ice out and my mother always used to give me hell, "Don't take the ice!" because I used to chew on ice. But I wouldn't remember an icebox if it weren't for camp because I'm not that old. I think. INTERVIEWER: [Laughter] Well, I don't know old… ROBERT: I mean, the only reason I remember is because we had it in the summer. So we had modern appliances up here. Up in the city, we called it city house. INTERVIEWER: But if there was still an iceman, I would think that many people still had an icebox. ROBERT: Many people must have still had an icebox. WIFE: On the [unintelligible - 00:09:50] side, because I remember icemen in our neighborhood. Even though we didn't have an icebox, I remember icemen. ROBERT: And then the farmer who's still down there now, who sells corn, used to deliver us milk in the old glass bottles with the neck and the cream on it. We used to take the top of the cream off half of that so we could whip it up and put it on the cake. We don't get that kind of milk anymore. WIFE: No, that was the only way you bought cream.7 ROBERT: That's the only way you bought cream when they came on the bottles, huh? WIFE: Well no, actually. No. The old bottle was where you could just get some of it off, and then it would stop. ROBERT: Then it would start the necks. WIFE: But then around the '40s or '50s, didn't they come out with… ROBERT: The necks? WIFE: In '50s they came out with a bottle with a little neck. ROBERT: And all the cream used to settle into the narrow and you could… WIFE: … spoon it out. ROBERT: Spoon in there and get it out? Ah, clever. WIFE: Yeah, that was the big improvement, so you could get all the cream without the milk in it, then you really could whip it. ROBERT: Yeah. So I would guess my dad graduated from dental school I think in '29. WIFE: When a dumbass male wasn't in the family… ROBERT: 1929, I think, from Harvard Dental School. WIFE: I do think he went to Northridge University on a scholarship family before that. ROBERT: On a scholarship before that, yeah. Then I'm thinking how many years after that did he build this nice house on Highland Avenue. So he built the camp at '34. Silvia said he built the camp before Highland Avenue because he didn't like living on the third floor. It was hot up there on the third floor apartment, so he built the camp next to the lake with one of his patients who became a friend. They both bought, simultaneously, land together from the Quaker development. Who were the – the whole lake was owned by people at the Harvard place we went. WIFE: The Shakers? ROBERT: The Shakers. That was all owned by the Shakers. All that land. Used to have meetings there. And then there was where they -- we 8 dropped the boats in now is this stagecoach stop on the way to Springfield years ago, and that now is a boat watch. The state -- because the state owned that land, they made it a public launch. WIFE: Now, we need to get back on track here. INTERVIEWER: Wait a minute, the camp. Now, where is that located? ROBERT: Fort Farm in Lancaster. INTERVIEWER: Now, was that kind of an unclaimed [for the] battalion families? WIFE: No, not at all. ROBERT: No. Nope just a land from the Shakers. WIFE: Just individual people bought it. In fact, the only little enclave on the lake was the Finnish people. ROBERT: The Finnish people, like, have an enclave on the lake, and it's still there now. And we used to go over -- as a teenager, we used to go over there to the -- Wednesday nights to the Finn Arts, into the Finn Theatrics. WIFE: Your next-door neighbor built the same time your father built, and he was Italian. ROBERT: And he was Italian. WIFE: And he owned… ROBERT: And that was Fred Angel's cousins'. WIFE: No, it was Fred Angel's uncle who built the house next door to your parents, and you and the next Angelo kids all grew up together. And they just sold the place two years ago. So that was really traumatic for us, because the house all blend right together, and it was like our beaches were together. ROBERT: Yeah, they joined everything. We even joined the beach together. That's right, grew up together. So he did that in '34, and I was born on '36 because of the third floor apartment was too hot, and a much -- then after '34, then he built the place at Highland Avenue. INTERVIEWER: It seems we have the time down. Out of the city directive. ROBERT: Maybe see the addresses.9 WIFE: Well, I do have now the pictures of your brother that your mother showed me. He was still a little -- he was born in '33. So he looked to be about three or four years old in the picture and actually fit with the Highland Avenue. So it must have been shortly thereafter. ROBERT: Shortly a year after. WIFE: A couple of year, a year or two. INTERVIEWER: So how was life different at the camp compared to Highland Avenue? ROBERT: No school. I didn't go to school in there. I get tired of it, certainly. We were just in the water most of the day and running around, having a good time. INTERVIEWER: Freedom. Total freedom. ROBERT: Until the [Cushman] came, until the baker man came with his chocolate cupcakes. WIFE: No rules, regulations, just freedom, which is what my husband wants. INTERVIEWER: I remember the [unintelligible - 00:14:58] yet? WIFE: No rules and regulations. ROBERT: Right, and those three months was kind of no rules. We could get up and… WIFE: Yeah and muddle, like we'll run if we wanted to. ROBERT: Yeah, it was just -- we'd put on our bathing suits and run out and come back to eat and run out again. Of course we had lots of company. My mother had -- all our relatives would come down and visit us because it was on a hot day, everybody would come down and swim. WIFE: Lots of big meals. ROBERT: And she always had sauce and meatballs going. INTERVIEWER: And did your father live at the camp during the week?10 ROBERT: Yup. We used to move down lock, stock and barrel. Put mothballs in the winter home on the lakes. Couldn't go in because it's burning your eyes because the mothballs was so strong. In fact they cleaned out the cell the other day and found, I think, our mothballs down there when they cleaned up the cellar. WIFE: Yeah, they were big with mothballs. ROBERT: They were big with mothballs. You couldn't walk into a city home without your eyes burning because all of the rugs, they'd sprinkled in mothballs. INTERVIEWER: Impossible to get that smell out. ROBERT: Smell out. Well it did, we only came back -- after Labor Day we would come back. Middle of June we'd get down. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, probably. ROBERT: I guess so [laughter]. We never had any moths though [laughter]. No moths in that house. INTERVIEWER: Now, were you required to do any chores while staying at the camp? ROBERT: I don't remember. WIFE: I doubt it. I doubt it. ROBERT: We had to take care of the boats. WIFE: I don't think they had to do any [unintelligible - 00:16:28]. ROBERT: The beach shores was our deal. We used to have to take care of the beach. WIFE: He had a privileged upbringing [laughter]. ROBERT: That was a great life. WIFE: But when I get into the family, I don't remember ever seeing you empty out the trash. ROBERT: Well, that's not true. No. Come on now. WIFE: When I was around I didn't. ROBERT: Well, we had to. We had to. Because we didn't have -- remember, the house didn't connect to the cellar. We had to go outside to get 11 to the cellar where we used to keep the icebox. One of the iceboxes was down the cellar, and all our boats stop in the… step and key for the boats was kept in the cellar, and that was our job. So I got it, up and down every day. We used to lug even -- I remember lugging the 3-horsepower motor up every night so it won't get rained on, I guess. In those days you brought the motor up. INTERVIEWER: Now, were you required to have a job, let's say when you were in high school? ROBERT: Oh yeah. Yup. When I was a teenager we worked in the summer. Every summer we'd -- some of them were kind of political jobs that I had to get from patients he knew and friends in factories. I remember my brother had a job doing some piecework working with shoes, and I had a job in the mailroom of place that sold pocketbooks. I used to package them up, up on West Fitchburg. And then after that I got working for the state. I used to work for the state cleaning up the highways, which was nice. It was the highway they put right in front of our camp, so it was very close to home. For lunch we used to go for a swim. WIFE: Difficult. Difficult on the job. ROBERT: We had that all worked out [laughter]. We'd pick up all the trash in the highway in town. 'Cause they took half our land to build the highway, Route 2. Yeah, it went through the driveway that came in. Well, we had a long driveway. We used to listen to the frogs croak at night; now we listen to the big trucks go by in the highway. INTERVIEWER: Is it an acre or half acre? ROBERT: Maybe a half acre. WIFE: Just by a [unintelligible - 00:18:40].12 ROBERT: Yeah, and I remember, I think we got 750 bucks from it. Had to be back in the early '50s, maybe in the late '40s when they took the land. I think the highway went in the early '50s. INTERVIEWER: So were you required to get a job mostly just for responsibility? ROBERT: For responsibility, yeah. INTERVIEWER: So you weren't contributing to the finances of the family? ROBERT: Well, I gave -- my father took all the money that came in from it. WIFE: Did he really? ROBERT: Yeah. I used to just give him the check. WIFE: I hear that over and over. ROBERT: Yeah, just like that. Just give him the check, and he would give me what I wanted to live. I don't even know how much it was. Like $2.70 an hour, I think, if I remember. WIFE: Gee, that was a lot [laughter]. I think my job was more like a [unintelligible - 00:19:34]. ROBERT: $2.10 an hour? No, it was 2-something. WIFE: Well, I'm working for the state. What can I tell you? INTERVIEWER: So you mentioned chocolate cupcakes or something. ROBERT: Cushman was the baker, bakery. Came in a black truck three times a week and you can get bread, fresh bread, and chocolate cupcakes and [unintelligible - 00:20:01]. Yeah, he used to come up that long driveway; and when he's coming, he used to honk the horn and we used to run up from the beach so we'd have an influence in buying some of the stuff. INTERVIEWER: Little cupcake goodies. ROBERT: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So this was basically at the camp and not… ROBERT: Yeah, I don't remember Cushman here at the city house. INTERVIEWER: Interesting. ROBERT: Yeah, we'd go shopping like everybody else.13 WIFE: Probably because you can't go so far away. Your mother wouldn't have to go running to the stores. ROBERT: Yeah, I would guess so. It was just the driveway, that's far away. WIFE: You would have milk and the bakery products come to you. ROBERT: Right. Come in the summer. And then in the winter we wouldn't have it anymore. So it was two different lives. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember any other products coming? Well, I guess the iceman. ROBERT: Yeah, the iceman and the milk. INTERVIEWER: No egg man? ROBERT: Both Cushman and Harper had eggs. Yeah, both guys sold eggs. WIFE: And butter, probably. ROBERT: And butter, right. Yup, dairy kinds of products. WIFE: I used to love all them. So really, you could live just with having the milkman come to the house because he would have the butter, the eggs, the milk, and cottage cheese. INTERVIEWER: Was cottage cheese a big item back then? ROBERT: Not for me, it wasn't. It's not now either [laughter]. INTERVIEWER: There might be a city thing [unintelligible - 00:21:19]. ROBERT: It might be a. I don't remember any cottage cheese. I remember spaghetti and meatballs [laughter]. The blueberry pie, because we had wild blueberries growing all over the place. And since the highway came in, not so good anymore. WIFE: All the blueberries bushes. ROBERT: Yeah, and maybe the trees grew up because there were low blueberry bushes. They cut a lot of sun now that all the trees have grown up. They look at it as very flimsy. I just found a big bush down by the lake a couple of years ago, and the birds are having a ball of it. I'm going to put a screen over it because it's loaded with blueberries now, and it's high. INTERVIEWER: Someone's going to be doing some baking.14 ROBERT: So we're going to -- right. The end of July used to be blueberry season. We used to go pick them blueberries, and then we'd have a month of blueberry pies that my mother would bake. WIFE: Well, I remember. ROBERT: And that's today is my favorite pie. WIFE: We used to leave the city and go to Franklin, Mass, which is -- used to be the country, it's down in Southern… INTERVIEWER: I grew up in Belem, my family. WIFE: Oh, really? Okay. And my uncle, who was a lawyer, had no children. He decided -- we used to call the farm. Well, it was just a home with not anything around it. Well, there was a lake, maybe, I don't know, a mile away. And then across the street from us, there was a farm. But he used to like to go there just to get away from the law practice and the city and whatever. And my grandparents loved it because they, from Italy, used to farm. He was a tailor, but they grew all of them vegetables and so forth when you could, because I guess everyone in Italy did that. We didn't got to the store. So we used to say we would go to the farm in the summer to visit. And my remembrances there were just all the produce that was… ROBERT: I don't remember the big garden at all, and most Italian older people had their own garden. I never remember a garden. WIFE: My grandparents could grow everything, and they did. I mean, we had watermelons, cantaloupes; we had potatoes. I mean, they just grew everything. What made me think of this was the pie that we used to go picking berries, and… ROBERT: Berries, yeah. We would have the wild berries. WIFE: … and pies in our family. We would only be eating during the summer when you would take blackberries and blueberries. We didn't do that in the winter. In the winter you had cakes; pies were only in the summer. On the farm you could have apple pie, but 15 that was kind of fun watching my grandparents farm all the fruit. I never could. I never, never, never do that. And they could grow any type peas. We used to sit and shell peas. INTERVIEWER: You know, different [unintelligible - 00:24:08] but you could, but you didn't have to. WIFE: Probably. Possibly. My father never had a big garden. He used to have just a few tomato plants and basil plants, but I think, I think because he was the eldest of six children, I think he was tired of farming. So he didn't want anything to do with it, so I never learned much about it. INTERVIEW: Now, you don't remember a garden in your family? ROBERT: I don't remember a garden in my family 'til later. WIFE: Until we were in college. ROBERT: Until I was in college, right, and they started doing their tomatoes and cucumbers and stuff. But as a kid, I don't remember a garden being around. INTERVIEWER: Tomato plants? Interesting, isn't that? ROBERT: Yup, and in the summer you'd think that there would be. But we had the farmer so close though. There were two farmers. There was Gole and Harper, and we used to walk -- and my dad used to come home from work on a windy road, and we'd know, he'd call, like, when he was going to leave the office, and we'd walk up the road and meet him just about at the farm, and we'd bring home the vegetables and milk or whatever. Sometimes, some of those days that we'd walk up, because if it wasn't hot enough to swim, we'd go for walks and meet him on the way home. But there were two farmers always, and to this day, I'm enjoying the seasonal corn and the seasonal things from one of the farmers that are still there. Well, both of them are still there, come to think of it. Gole and Harper. Harper used to be near Leominster. His father, and he's still doing…16 WIFE: He had the milk cab, the dairy farm, but then the son started raising corn and vegetables, too. ROBERT: I think there was corn. He had corn, too. Yup. WIFE: But Gole's… ROBERT: Gole's corn is superb. WIFE: That is still a legend. I mean, it is like… ROBERT: It's gold. Everybody has tasted it agrees that it's the best in the world. WIFE: This area is revered to this day. I mean, we have to bring it down to my daughter in Boston and… ROBERT: We'll bring it to our doctor friends. WIFE: Oh yeah. I'd bring it to my doctor; every time I'd go to my doctor in Boston, I have to bring it to him. They get very mortified if I don't bring it to him. ROBERT: They just won the tomato. Massachusetts and New England, they have the best tomatoes in New England. Same guy who was in Massachusetts? WIFE: Growers Association, yeah. ROBERT: They always came in second or third or fourth, but this year they came in first. So later in the corner, this wonderful thing that I grew up with, it's seasonal. WIFE: We packed it in ice and sent it back to Atlanta with my son and to California with my son. They don't eat any other corn but Gole's corn, so it really is a… INTERVIEWER: Now, do they know this? ROBERT: Oh yeah, we told them. Yeah, because they were patients of mine and the parents of patients of my father's, so we know them well. And we had been dealing with them for, you know, our life. And all of those seasonal things, we came back to our city house different times, different life, different -- it was just like vacation down there for two and a half months. 17 WIFE: And it was only eight miles, ten miles. ROBERT: It was only eight -- less than that -- six, eight miles from my house, which is my situation now. WIFE: Well, a little closer than your parents were in Fitchburg. ROBERT: No, right. We're four miles from… WIFE: We're five. They must have been ten, eight, whatever. INTERVIEWER: So do you really close up the shells of the mothballs and everything? ROBERT: No mothballs. INTERVIEWER: But do you come back in? ROBERT: Yeah, we leave it pretty much open. WIFE: We don't really close it up. ROBERT: We live down there, but weekends we're here, and half our clothes are here. And when the kids come or the relatives come, this is always available for bedrooms. WIFE: I have family who don't live around here, so people are coming to visit, we need a lot of bedrooms. Whereas when he was growing up, all of his family was here, except he did have family in Boston or Plymouth, but they would just come up for the day. No one would ever stay over. So we need lots of bedrooms, so we always have both houses open. INTERVIEWER: Now, did your children, did they enjoy the camp much like you did? ROBERT: Same thing. They wanted to be there forever. WIFE: It's holy ground. That's what they consider it. INTERVIEWER: Now, getting back to your grandparents and your parents, I realize that you don't remember much about your grandparents, but they must have been pretty remarkable to have [still] something in your father. I mean, he was the first graduate of Harvard from this area? ROBERT: We think so. Yeah, at least at professional school. They were seven kids. 18 WIFE: I don't know. I know there's six in my family. I don't count yours, now that [unintelligible - 00:29:04]. REESPONDENT: Yeah, six or seven kids, and I think my father was the youngest. INTERVIEWER: What was his name? ROBERT: Fred. INTERVIEWER: Fredric. ROBERT: Fredric. F-r-e-d-r-i-c. Not "Frederic." It's Fredric. INTERVIEWER: Fredric, and… WIFE: I don't know where that came from. ROBERT: And finally get out of middle school, and I guess was, did very well on the first two years because he started these houses [laughter]. And then I remember him -- I remember in the early '40s when penicillin was invented and he almost had it in the army, and then the war ended soon after that. He was a dentist then in the Park building on Main Street and Fitchburg. And I can remember my mother going in Sunday mornings -- every Sunday morning, they would go in and she would, on her hands and knees, wash the floors, you know, all the floors in the office. WIFE: I think by choice though, because she had help at home. ROBERT: Not in those days. She had Camelia and whatnot. WIFE: And she had the young girl who was an orphan, who lived with you people in Highland Avenue, took care of you when you kids were little. She told me that. ROBERT: So why did she go in and do the… WIFE: Well, I think because it was a joint venture and she liked to do it. ROBERT: It was a joint venture and she liked to do it, and I used to go play in the lab with the plaster, and pull up models in plaster and all of that. And I think that's how I got my interest to become a dentist. That's why she was… INTERVIEWER: How old were you when you started doing the help?19 ROBERT: Eight. I wanted to be a dentist since I've been maybe eight, nine years old. I would watch him do his stuff and enjoyed the lab and tinkering with all that stuff. My father was a tinkerer like myself. He liked to fix and break things. WIFE: This acorn did not fall far from the tree, let me tell you that. People who see him on the street right now, he's embodied his father. So it's like oh my god. ROBERT: I walk by them and they say, "He looks just like his father." INTERVIEWER: Do you have the same personality as your father? ROBERT: No, no. No, ask my wife. WIFE: He has the same… Bob is more of a cut-up, but when you get down to the personality… ROBERT: Yeah I'm a lot of my mother. WIFE: But the way you view life and the way you order and do things in your life is exactly as your father used to do it [laughter]. ROBERT: Yeah, I got my mother's personality. WIFE: Yeah, but you have that decision -- he had a style that was if they had decided they're going to do something, they're going to do it, and their way is the right way and that's it. It's not open for, you know… ROBERT: Well, because it's the right way. WIFE: See, and that's where he's like his father. ROBERT: Now, that's simple. It's the right thing to do. WIFE: But his father was more serious and quieter, and he's very much like his mother who was very extrovert, very outgoing. So he got bits of both. ROBERT: That's what you're supposed to do, right? Take the best of both worlds. INTERVIEWER: What about work ethics? ROBERT: Same thing. We're [unintelligible - 00:32:23]. 20 WIFE: He picked that [unintelligible - 00:32:25], although he complained about it, and he kept telling his father, "Oh I'm not going to work as hard as you, and I'm going to retire when I'm 40." He ended up being just like his father in that office. ROBERT: Yeah. My father would have a temperature of 103 on Sunday night, and Monday morning he had no temperature. Go to work. I'm the same way. I could be dead on my feet and I'd still end up at work without a temperature somehow. WIFE: No breaks during the day. Absolutely none. You work… ROBERT: But then I learned to take breaks for a while. WIFE: Well, it took a long time. ROBERT: It's not too old. INTERVIEWER: Did you tell me last time -- I don't think they had a sick day at work. ROBERT: I don't think -- I can't remember missing a day maybe. WIFE: He came home once, half a day. He had something like 103 temp. ROBERT: I used to marvel at that, but he hadn't missed any days. Wow, how lucky. INTERVIEWER: Now, did your mom and dad expect you to become a dentist? ROBERT: I think so. He would've liked both of us to become a dentist, but my brother didn't want anything to do with it. INTERVIEWER: Now, your brother is older? ROBERT: Got an older brother. INTERVIEWER: And what's his name? ROBERT: Fredric Jr. He's the junior. INTERVIEWER: He didn't become a dentist. ROBERT: No, he became a physician. He didn't want anything to do with dentistry and I didn't want anything to do with physicianing [laughter]. But my father always wanted us to be equal, because I guess he had trouble in his family, jealousy and whatnot, with some of the sibling, weren't of the same financial level.21 WIFE: Well, he had the one brother, and the rest were sisters. ROBERT: And the rest were sisters, but still there was -- and the brother had most of the jealousy. WIFE: But they all -- everyone in the family… ROBERT: Everybody got along. They did well. WIFE: They all worked. That family, I don't know whether it was the combination of Padula and Frigoletto, but they all had this amazing work ethic. I just -- when I came to the family, all aunts and the uncle worked. And it was everybody. ROBERT: I think I mentioned it last time, too, one of my favorite stories about my father's oldest sister. Somewhere around 90 years old, she had a heart problem and they told her she couldn't wash her kitchen floor anymore, and her kid wouldn't let her. So she told me she set the alarm up to three o'clock in the morning, get up out of bed and washed the floor and nobody would stop her. So she'd been doing it for years, and now it's never going to slide. Once a week, you didn't have to do the -- well, I had to do the floor once a week. Why I shouldn't wax, I should do it. WIFE: I can remember when I got into the family, she was in her late 70s and she was still working as a salesclerk at the local department store. I mean, which never dawned on her, but maybe she could retire. INTERVIEWER: Now, what was her name? WIFE: That was Mary. ROBERT: It was Mary. WIFE: Mary Romano was a lot of everything, and then Bob's aunt Josephine, her married name was Dragotti. She and Bob's father were two of a kind. They were like a tornado. ROBERT: They were like twins. Tornado twins, right?22 WIFE: They never stopped, and they thought you should just work 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. I mean, even in your leisure time, you should be doing something constructive. ROBERT: When my father -- she married an Italian guy from New York, and my father was instrumental in helping them buy their business, which was a print shop, which became a very successful print shop for printing for business in the city of Fitchburg. INTERVIEWER: And what was his last name, Dragotti? ROBERT: Dragotti, and my favorite story there, if they like stories, is he goes into the safety fund bank on Main Street one day, parks his car on the No Parking side of the street, which is where the Safety Fund Bank is, when he comes out and delivers some packages and printing. When he comes out of the bank, there's a policeman giving him a ticket. So and my uncle's -- he was a wonderful guy, he was like the saint of the city. He looked at the policeman, grabbed the ticket and looked at it and said, "You keep giving them and I'll keep printing them." [Laughter] And with a smile, get into his car and -- he was just… WIFE: This particular uncle, I don't think I ever, ever heard him lose his temper or speak above a soft tone. He really was a saint. ROBERT: He loved everybody and everybody loved him. WIFE: And everybody, they knew him. I used to call him ambassador. INTERVIEWER: I know his last name now, but what was his first name? WIFE: Lewis. Lewis Dragotti, who was from New York originally. ROBERT: Yeah, married -- came here and was fixed up with one of the other… WIFE: Mary. ROBERT: No, Louise. Was fixed up with one of the other sisters and noticed Josephine in the background, and when he got home, he called the number and had asked Josephine, "Would you mind if I didn't go out with your sister? I went out with you." And that sister went to 23 -- ended up in Boston, marrying the chief of the Boston Fire Department. INTERVIEWER: Louise did. ROBERT: Yeah, he became the chief of. He wasn't -- then he was just a private fireman. INTERVIEWER: So was that expected that you would go to Harvard? ROBERT: I think my father would've like to. Yeah, he would've liked that to happen. It didn't happen to either of his sons. Now we're -- my brother is now a… is a chair in Harvard, so that made my dad happy. INTERVIEWER: But refresh my memory, because I seem to remember that you have a [unintelligible - 00:38:43] at schools but maybe didn't accept you or him. ROBERT: That was Harvard, yeah. My brother went to BU medical, didn't get into Harvard, and I didn't get into Harvard. I went to a school out in the Midwest. I came back, and both my brother and I, during our careers, have been presidents of national organizations. So here we are from little old Fitchburg. WIFE: His brother's on the faculty of Harvard. He was a chair at Harvard. He trained all the Harvard doctors, so in short it was -- and he taught at BU. Sort of. They had MTAPS. They sort of came back and said, "Well, now you're hiring us as your teachers." ROBERT: My father always used to love that, that they wouldn't take us now but now you're teaching them there, right? So that was good. He always wanted us to be equal, and he always pushed us to do that. Gave us a lot of drive. WIFE: My daughter got the same thing. ROBERT: And my daughter got the same kind of thing. WIFE: She is the oldest of… ROBERT: She's going to be the career girl.24 WIFE: …four. Well, she was so -- first of all, my daughter was the first girl in the family. There was just two boys, and she's the first grandchild. Well, let me tell you, all the pressure that was put on the boys growing up, we've put on my daughter growing up. Excel, excel, excel, study, study, study, and she took it to heart. So right now, she's getting her master's degree at Tufts, and she's always making reference. When he'll say something, she'll say, "Well, that's not what Poppy would have said," or "That's not what poppy did," that's what they called their grandpa, Poppy. So he had a big influence on her also. He was quite the presence. INTERVIEWER: So education was very important to him? ROBERT: Education was everything. Always pushing us to go on to school, go on to school, go on to school. WIFE: He had a little trouble understanding my son, who was a musician. "What? Not a science? Don't you want to be an engineer, a chemist, a doctor, a lawyer?" Lawyer, not so good, but you know, the sciences. Well, music was just -- he just couldn't fathom that at all, although my son is very good in engineering also. That warped into his degree, but that was tough. ROBERT: I remember my father convincing me, but when I was in high school -- because we went to and became prep school brats, right? And then when I was in high school, he convinced me to go college summer school before I went to college that year so I could take, get a couple of credits out of the way and do better in the -- not to have such a strong schedule or something. I don't know why he convinced me to do that, but I did, took two courses at summer school at a high school level at BU before I went to college. Ended up going to Tufts, and maybe that's why I get into Tufts. I don't know why either. And then he wouldn't let me play a major sport while I was at Tufts because he wanted me to study and get a good start. So I ended up playing, ended up doing a 25 winter and a spring sport, but I couldn't play major sport in the fall. INTERVIEWER: Now, was that every year or just at… ROBERT: Yeah, every year. WIFE: Yeah he did not allow him to play football, which was his favorite. ROBERT: I don't know why I didn't rebel about that. [Unintelligible - 00:42:30] does that. WIFE: I don't have any [unintelligible - 00:42:30] to rebelled at everything else. ROBERT: But I think he had me brainwashed a little bit that studying was probably a good idea. I had to get a good start. I think he had me brainwashed. INTERVIEWER: So it sounds like maybe he had tight control over the family? ROBERT: Yeah, when it came to school he did, pretty much. WIFE: But on the rest of the time his mother, with household. ROBERT: Yeah, Mother ran pretty much the household after that. We got to mention during back -- I don't know what year that was, but Dad was for 15 years head of the Park Department here in Fitchburg and had something to do with [unintelligible - 00:43:12] what's that first name at the ice skate at Carmela? WIFE: Carmelita Landry. ROBERT: Carmelita Landry, speed skater in town. ROBERT: Connected with the city somehow. WIFE: Somehow he got money so that she could enter the speed… ROBERT: Got money to push it along. So he was very involved. WIFE: Community-oriented. ROBERT: Community-oriented guy, yeah. And then… WIFE: He was on the Parks Department. He established the… ROBERT: Park Hill Pool in [unintelligible - 00:43:45], created that whole thing for that area of people that will let out the pool in the summer, and went on to donate some dollars to the prep school 26 that we went to, my brother and I, and subsequently my daughter, with his influence. WIFE: He carried the influence. He went to that school, because that's where Poppy wanted her to go to high school. Not that we care, but he did. ROBERT: And he gave some dollars, and… WIFE: A lot of dollars. There still is… ROBERT: Scholarship in my mother's name. WIFE: Scholarship in his mother's name, and the money that he donated after he died. And after his mother died the money was earmarked for that launched academy, and they built… ROBERT: They renovated the infirmary. The infirmary at the school is now named the Frigoletto Infirmary. We didn't think [unintelligible - 00:44:45] name on it, with the sound that -- my dad had passed away by that time, and we had kept the money in side pocket for a new dorm, which couldn't get built somehow, so they came to my brother and I to say, "What are we going to do with this? Would you contribute a little more?" And then so we refurbished the infirmary, and I, in fact, made it -- I used to collect old dental equipment, so we donated all that old dental equipment to the infirmary and paid those glass shelves and bookcases and stuff. Some of this equipment, when you walk into the waiting room down there at the infirmary, and here's all these ancient dental equipment and history books and whatnot so that people could see. WIFE: There were times when it was a disaster before that, truthfully. I mean, you would… ROBERT: Yeah, it was really a hole in the wall. WIFE: … to be sick there. And quite nice. ROBERT: Yeah, now we got what? Six beds, full of lights, and… WIFE: They have a psychologist's office there and the central office there. ROBERT: Yeah, they fixed it up quite nicely.27 INTERVIEWER: So tell me how you did become a student at Lawrence Academy? When was that? ROBERT: You could only get into medical dental school if you went to prep school, supposedly. That was the theory. So I can say it was partly true in those days. You would have a better chance graduating from a preparatory school than high school. My uncle always said it was the student that was on trial and not the school. WIFE: Now, I don't really agree with that, but… ROBERT: Yeah, but I think that was the philosophy at that time. WIFE: But the '50s, if you wanted to go to a good undergraduate school, you had a better chance if you went to one of the… ROBERT: Yeah, in fact a lot of the people who are getting out of the service or who didn't get into college and high school would spend their PG at post -- your senior a year at the prep school to prove to the colleges that they could do well under a supposedly heavier schedule and then get into college. So we had a lot of PGs and seniors. WIFE: But when he and his brother went, it was strictly boarding. There were no day students. He was a boarder, and then… ROBERT: Well, we had a few day students from [unintelligible - 00:47:07]. WIFE: Oh, really? Did they allow that then? ROBERT: Yeah. WIFE: Oh, they did. I thought it was strictly… ROBERT: It was a mile thing. If you loved within so many miles, you could. We used to call them the day-hops. We didn't accept them as people, because they were the day-hops. INTERVIEWER: They didn't have the same experience. ROBERT: Right. WIFE: And his mother was thrilled, too. They could only come home once a month. ROBERT: Once a month.28 WIFE: So your mother had -- I thought she had the best deal going. I mean, these kids came home once a month, and she spoiled them and then sent them back to prep school. ROBERT: Very traditional prep school, which my brother graduated from. I only made it two years there. I told my father I'm going to run away from home if he didn't take me out of there. So I found another prep school I went to. INTERVIEWER: And which one was that? ROBERT: That was Cambridge School in Westin. That was a progressive co-educational school, which changed my life and every one of my classmates. As we see them today, every single classmate admits that they've changed their lives. And the thing that was even more confirming, about five years ago, we went to a reunion, and Mr. Muga was there. WIFE: David Muga? ROBERT: David Muga. He went to Cambridge School, and it changed his life. So he donated a whole big building they were building. He's the guy that supports the fireworks at New Year's. WIFE: The philanthropist in Boston who gives millions for all the Fourth of July fireworks. And I think he's… ROBERT: I don't even know what business he's in. WIFE: Wasn't he -- I don't want to say this on tape in case I'm wrong. I though he started out in… ROBERT: Well, it doesn't matter. The important thing is, we went to this reunion, he was the speaker, and it was interesting to hear him paraphrase the same thing my classmates and I would as we talked with each other. WIFE: Because he only went there one year. His parents took him out of the Belmont Film School because he was floundering, and they sent him to this Cambridge School. ROBERT: It was just a wonderful school to…29 WIFE: Listening to him, he found it -- when he spoke of his experiences, he sounded just like what Bob said. ROBERT: Yeah, and then all of my classmates. WIFE: They did something at that school, they did something right. And it was very -- his father was not thrilled with that. It was his uncle, who's a professor at BU, who… ROBERT: Who knew the French teacher at the school. WIFE: … this school by his son, and of course it wasn't traditional, and it wasn't. ROBERT: So my daughter had to go to Lawrence. My daughter had to go back to the traditional school. That's where my father's heart was, really. INTERVIEWER: But I -- well, I shouldn't put words in your mouth, but if she didn't do well or if she said that she too was going to run away if… ROBERT: Yeah, then we would have [laughter]. I'm not sure run away. Anywhere around the corner. I had too good a life to run away. WIFE: Yeah, right. He wouldn't go. He knew he had a good life. But no, I did not have the feelings that his father did about it. School is important, but to me, it was important that they be at the school that they liked. Because if they liked it, they would do well. I wasn't even in favor of Lawrence Academy, because I did not want my child boarding as a teenager. ROBERT: We used to come home once a month. And I had another friend who was at Lawrence Academy, and the other one was at Cranwell Prep up in the western part of the state. And then we had a couple of friends who went to the local high schools here. So we came home on the weekends. We had a pink pair of pants. WIFE: She wouldn't know it anyway. ROBERT: No? You know, pink in the velvet style of local clothes, because we were grey-flannel straight-tie people at prep school, but we come home, we have the oversized jacket and the pink pants. And 30 we always keep one of those, and our friends locally, we would dye them for Christmas, the red tie and the grey flannel pants, so when they came to our environment they had one suit of clothes for that. So I remember, but we always used to come home and wear the clothes of the local high school and date and cross-dating, fix up and whatnot. I remember double-dating with the recent mayor of the city, she and her husband, because they were dating at the same time. INTERVIEWER: Did you ever reflect on how your lives may have been different if you didn't go to a prep school? ROBERT: Yeah. I would've have known a lot more people in town. We always felt left out somehow. We're that small group that we would meet monthly when we came home through a couple of contacts but never really had a lot of close peers in town because of being away. And we'd had our kids go away, we would remind them of that and say if you make friends locally, put a little extra effort into that. So that's one of the things I missed. WIFE: That's one of the reasons I didn't want my… ROBERT: Yeah, that was one of the reasons, but we tried to… WIFE: However, my daughter was hell-bent on going to Lawrence, and she liked it. ROBERT: Yeah she liked. WIFE: She did well. It did well by her, and she loved it, so that was fine and dandy. It was certainly not… ROBERT: But Jay, we tried Jay at a prep school, didn't like it. He came back and ended up going to Notre Dame, which was a local… WIFE: We knew it was a long shot for him. ROBERT: That was influenced by a [unintelligible - 00:52:51]. WIFE: But he, much like his father, he would have done better with the Cambridge School at Westin. But he went to this [unintelligible - 00:53:03] on Herman, and he just didn't like it, so after…31 ROBERT: And I knew how he felt. WIFE: And after one year, he came back and we let him pick his own school. And everyone in town said, you're not going to send him to the other school? And I said we interviewed all the school… ROBERT: And we let him pick the one he wants. WIFE: And it was [unintelligible - 00:53:25] right school for him. They had some great teachers, and he did very well, small classes and you could think for yourself. So he did well. ROBERT: He's still friends with one of the teachers now. See, that was ten years ago, maybe more. WIFE: So it's like different strokes for different folks. INTERVIEWER: I find it interesting that your father obviously got into Harvard. He must have graduated from… ROBERT: Norwich, Norwich University. INTERVIEWER: Which high school did he graduate from? ROBERT: Fitchburg High School. INTERVIEWER: But he felt prep school was better for you? ROBERT: Uh-huh. WIFE: I guess the idea was that you're always going to give your children something more than you had. That must have been it. ROBERT: Yeah, and I think that's it and in those days, it was true because of the PGs. Everybody who was going away to the colleges were coming from prep schools. Not everybody, but a greater percentage. WIFE: No, not everybody. I certainly went to Charleston High, and I did not go to a prep school. And my sister went to Simmons, and she did not go to a prep school. ROBERT: I didn't say it was bad. I just said that the percentage of people and the chances of getting into college was better from a preparatory school. At least, that was the philosophy at the time. And I don't hear of PGs at prep schools nowadays, because that's not true 32 anymore. But there was an era there, and tied with it -- it had something to do with the wars. The Korean War maybe and whatnot? No? WIFE: No. I thought it was just a phase. ROBERT: These people came back -- no, because some of these people had gone into the army for a couple of years and come back and had to spend a PG refresher year before they could get into college. WIFE: Well, ours it was -- from our school, the ones that went to the post-graduate like that, the kids that maybe were borderline, they thought they had a better chance of getting in if they spent a year. ROBERT: Yeah, or spent too much time in sports and just didn't do their work and had to prove themselves in a more structured environment [unintelligible - 00:55:25] so that was the philosophy. INTERVIEWER: Let's talk about your father's practice, his dental practice. For example, you had explained to me how your father's patients were really friends with him. ROBERT: The guy who built next to the camp became a good friend. There are still a few families in town that I do business with, and they did business with me. We don't see them socially, but our parents were good friends from doing business together, and we just keep it going and talk about it, "Hey, let's keep the tradition going." WIFE: Actually, it might be worth mentioning that your father and mother both were instrumental in bringing two doctors from Boston into Fitchburg. Your mother's friends from Newton and two of her girlfriends were married, one to a physician and one to a podiatrist, and… ROBERT: And both of those of Jewish descent. WIFE: Jewish, right. And they left Austin and came here to continue practices.33 ROBERT: And came here. Plus, maybe in the culture in there, my mother—and I think I've mentioned this—was one of the few Protestant Italians who were the [unintelligible - 00:56:56] who was a congregational minister. WIFE: And he's from Belmont, right? They lived in Newton, but I think he was in Belmont. ROBERT: Right. INTERVIEWER: So first let me ask you, do you remember the doctors' names who came here? WIFE: Yeah. Doctor Silver and Doctor Zyde was the podiatrist, and his son was a lawyer in town and a judge now. ROBERT: Judge now. INTERVIEWER: And explain to me how it was your mother was a Protestant Italian? ROBERT: I have no idea how that happened. I think the family come over from Italy were Protestants. There was a small segment of the Italian population who were Protestant Christians that aren't Catholic. WIFE: There are. Now, I don't know whether or not he was one of those, because I remember checking on the library, and I know there is a Protestant group of Italians in Italy, but I thought I remembered someone saying, that when he came over here… ROBERT: He came from Connecticut. WIFE: And I thought, perhaps was it someone in the Protestant church that had helped him or something, and that's how he became… ROBERT: I don't know. I don't remember. WIFE: I wasn't sure. I thought I might have heard that. We should've checked that out. I don't know. ROBERT: He met Grandma, who was from Milan, in Connecticut, at the church he was at. And so they get married.34 INTERVIEWER: And it was your grandmother that was a Protestant Italian? ROBERT: Must have been. Also, I don't know. WIFE: Well, it's not -- she became one when he… ROBERT: It's not -- yeah, when you marry the minister. I guess she became one because -- my mother became Catholic, but it's a… good Catholics. WIFE: I never thought of asking, but Grandpa Marlino, the minister, married your grandma. ROBERT: Grandmother. I don't know what she was, but they were Protestant growing up. But I give my mother a lot of credit. WIFE: And all the children are Protestant, so they must have… ROBERT: Yes, all our uncles were Protestants. My mother was the only Catholic out of her family. All of… INTERVIEWER: How did that happen? She changed when she married? ROBERT: When she married my father, yeah, and brought us up good Catholics. I don't ever remember a conflict there. WIFE: No. ROBERT: Other than when your grandfather says grace at meals, "Shut up. If it's too long, don't say anything." He would go for minutes and hours until our holiday meals. So of course we had to have the minister say grace, and I think -- I don' know, I never remember conflict there. We just [unintelligible - 00:59:41] Catholic. I give my mother a lot of credit in those days. WIFE: Well, certainly, your aunt and uncle, who were Protestant, never seemed to fail. ROBERT: I don't remember ever having a conflict about it. WIFE: No, not one. INTERVIEWER: I wonder if there was a conflict when you found he was getting married? WIFE: Yeah, I think there was, because…35 ROBERT: Well, he got married twice. Saturday night in Boston under the minister, and Sunday here with the priest. INTERVIEWER: I wonder how your grandparents felt about it, that you father's… ROBERT: I didn't think they knew in those years. I think it was a secret for a while. They weren't invited up to the Fitchburg wedding. They thought that was the wedding. It was all done and all went down. I think he had a second one up here, it seems. I don't really know. INTERVIEWER: Grandpa and Grandma Frigoletto, did they not meet Grandpa Frigoletto? ROBERT: Yeah, I don't know. WIFE: Taking in account all that history, and… ROBERT: Yeah, we have all that here. We weren't historians in those days. Luckily my kids are, and we are now. WIFE: Because I know all my relatives and all the stories and history. I mean, that was part of my growing up, but I think because he was away to school so much, and then when he was home, his father was just discussing school, school, school. ROBERT: Yeah, my father used to come home for supper and then go back to work. WIFE: I think we had more -- maybe my family had more contact with all the different branches. ROBERT: The other doctors used to take Wednesday afternoon off, then my father got home at 4:30 instead of 6:30. INTERVIEWER: But that wasn't typical I take it for doctors. They would… ROBERT: They would usually take Wednesday afternoons off, so now it's holiday Wednesday is the typical thing. But my father never get out of work. WIFE: I don't think you were as into what was going on in his family life, because he was just always a party guy. He was up playing all the time, and I think maybe a brother who was three years order, he might know somebody, I bet.36 ROBERT: He remembers more of the people that lived around too, but three years makes a difference in memory, too. INTERVIEWER: I know a little bit of the history. What did the Protestant and Catholic, [unintelligible - 01:01:55] think? ROBERT: No, that's done. We don't really know either. WIFE: Certainly didn't seem to be a problem, when I get into the family anyway. INTERVIEWER: Getting back to your father, he had a brother and sisters? ROBERT: One brother and four or five sisters. INTERVIEWER: Now, who was it that pushed him? ROBERT: Rose, his mother. The Padula. Yeah, because Grandpa worked for the city. He house the dirty work in the streets for the city, and Rose was the pusher and educator. So Grandmama did that. INTERVIEWER: In which ways? ROBERT: Hmm? INTERVIEWER: In which ways? ROBERT: In which ways? INTERVIEWER: How did she push him? Because I imagine that… ROBERT: I don't know, she was always -- because Grandpa died early in my life. I only remember from the tricycle and from some movies we've got down at camp. I don't remember him other than that. But Rose ended up living with us. We had a close sister who lived on the same street that we lived on, and she was always the pillar of strength. Drove a car when she was 84, had the same car, got it in '36 when I was born. It's a blue Ford. INTERVIEWER: What else can you tell me about her? ROBERT: Great cook. Peppers, which I never liked, because she used to do all the Italian spiced foods, but then my father got some stomach problems, diverticulitis, couldn't have any of those foods anymore. So as I grew up, my mother kind of lightened up on a lot of the 37 stuff my father couldn't eat, [unintelligible - 01:03:58], stuff like that. But my brother remembers all the cooking and the… WIFE: I remember your grandma Frigoletto, because she came to our wedding. She was very much alive and vibrant. She -- I didn't know her obviously when you were kids, but I bet she was a very… ROBERT: She was a big part of the household. Strong woman. WIFE: I think his father's directing people and ordering people, I think maybe that's where Josephine and Fran and Fred probably got it from. ROBERT: Got their oomph from, just her personality. Because I think Grandpa was not that powerful of a man. WIFE: And thinking that he died so long ago and she managed to… ROBERT: And I think yes it's her who decided to buy the three-decker house so that the sons and daughters could live close by. Just recently, we heard they have four, five rental things that she was… she was a go-getter and all that stuff. I'm sure he just followed along. WIFE: She sort of took care of -- she lived with your Aunt Josephine, but she ran the kitchen. Josephine and Lou worked in their business. She ran the house. INTERVIEWER: You said that you just recently learned that they had rental property? "They" meaning your grandparents? ROBERT: Grandparents, yeah, on Water Street. Yeah, they had rental properties. Sylvia just told me when I was asking about them. WIFE: This cousin Sylvia that he's mentioning, she -- her mother was Fred's oldest sister, and she died very young. ROBERT: Giving birth, to one of the other kids. WIFE: So Sylvia lost her mother when she was a young girl, and I guess she got a stepmother after that. But Sylvia went on to go to nursing school, [unintelligible - 01:06:01]. 38 ROBERT: And in fact my father put her through nursing school just financially. And she always, even to this day, she says, "Your father was so good to me. I remember paying him back after I got a job for a number of years and gave him a check. He never cashed it." WIFE: He just -- whoever he could get to go to school. ROBERT: Yeah, he was just… WIFE: She was then an instructor, in the school of nursing. ROBERT: Yeah, nursing at Burbank Hospital, her and Grace Gumo. INTERVIEWER: Do you think you grandparents or even your father ever faced discrimination being an Italian, a recent immigrant?/AT/jf/cm/es