Transcript of an oral history interview with Philip R. Marsilius, conducted by Sarah Yahm on 20 May 2015 as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Philip Marsilius was a member of the Norwich University Class of 1943. The bulk of his interview focuses on his military service in World War II as well as his continuing relationship with Norwich University as a student, alumnus, and trustee. ; Philip Marsilius, NU '43, Oral History Interview May 20, 2015 Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Sarah Yahm SY: So let's start out with, where were you born? And when you were a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up? PM: Well, I was born in Woodstock, Illinois in 1921. My father was running a company there. And my family consisted of a brother four years older, and a sister two years older. The sister and I were born in Woodstock. My father had been in World War I, and an ordinance making French 75 guns. And after that, was hired by this Woodstock typewriter company, which is older than the old typewriters, who was owned by the Sears family. And they made in addition, calculators and typewriters. And so I grew up there for two years. And then my father took an opportunity in Bridgeport to run a machine tool company, hence we moved here and lived in the north end of Bridgeport. Grew up there, went to public schools. Went to Harding High school, and from Harding, then to Norwich. SY: And did your father talk about his experiences in World War I? PM: Yes. He was a Norwegian immigrant. Came over from Southern Norway when he was 14, and learned his English in Boston at the YMCA. And then was hired by a company that made shoe machinery -- big, big company. And then they recommended he go to MIT, and he went and graduated as a mechanical engineer. And went immediately into the Army, and came out as a captain. And he was in machine tools all his life. He came here, and through the younger years -- then -- and when I was at Norwich, my folks moved to Trumbull, built a house there. And I spent a little time there, but we were accelerated in our senior year at Norwich. We went out early because they wanted us in the service. And we couldn't go to summer camp in our junior year, which was the standard routine. We were horse cavalry in those days. And we would take a trip through the back roads of Vermont up to Burlington area to the fort. And they had too many trainees at that time, so they ended up saying, we can't take you. You're gonna have to go to OCS. After four years at Norwich, we still had to go to OCS. SY: So, were you mad? PM: No, because we got out early. We got out end of February. SY: And I've heard stories of everybody on campus marching down and enlisting, was that what happened? Or? PM: Well, everybody -- a lot of them left early and joined -- volunteered for the Air Force. And some went to Canada to get in the Canadian Air Force when, like, might not be able to go in the US. And then a lot who had not finished Norwich, left and enlisted. SY: So were you eager to sort of get overseas? Were you eager to kind of get into the war? PM: Very much so. Would've left early after December 7th when Pearl Harbor hit. We went -- several of us went and volunteered. They said, you're not 21, you can't go without parental approval. And my folks said, finish your college, and then you can -- you're on your own. SY: So there was no part of you that was sort of frightened to go? PM: No. I was anxious to go. SY: And why? What was your -- why -- PM: Because I'd had good military background. The war was a devastating war. And in my mind, if we didn't stop what was going on and prevail, life would not be the same -- not be. So it just made sense to go in, and I volunteered for armored. Went to Fort Knox, and there were three others from Norwich. They had room in that class -- 110 candidates. SY: And how -- let me rewind a little bit. How did you adjust to being at Norwich? How did you adjust to being a rook? Did you take to the military lifestyle or was it difficult for you? PM: It did -- wasn't difficult. I had more -- I had more fun as a rook. And we had to come out in our pajamas. I had bought fancy pair of pajamas because I had heard about -- so I just said -- you know, they did a lot of nonsense. Bracing and all that stuff. SY: But it didn't faze you? PM: Didn't faze me. And second year, I was president of the class, and I stayed president of the class for all three years. SY: So, you did well there? PM: And I was valedictorian in addition. SY: In addition. OK, so how was the decision made that in February -- oh, tell me what you remember about Pearl Harbor. How did you hear about Pearl Harbor? PM: Oh, it was basically on the radio, and I just finished a book -- and it's in my car right now -- returning it. A Day of Deceit. FDR, and not letting Hawaii know he knew it was -- he wanted the Japanese to attack so he could declare war. And I've been through that whole book. But we knew it right away, obviously, from the radio news. Everybody knew it pretty fast. SY: Did you have radios in your room in Norwich? PM: Not in our room, no -- not. I can't -- I don't think we had radios. Today, they have everything. SY: Today, they everything. Exactly. OK, so then February, were you all called together into the Amory and told that you were gonna go to war? How as the decision made? PM: Oh, we were -- what we were told to do was, we had -- we actually had a graduation, and then we had a week off. And then we were told to return to Rutland for induction. And they made us corporals, of all good things, when we were supposed to be second lieutenants. And then we departed by train to Massachusetts, and then they went through the induction shots and all that -- get you prepared. And then they scheduled wherever you were gonna go. Some went to Riley in Kansas. Some went to chemical warfare, some went to electrical. So it was -- but four of us, I was able to get a car, and so I had a car. And the four of us drove from Florida, Massachusetts -- I can't think of the name. But that's where we were told to meet, and went through five days of basic nonsense. KP duty and all that kind of stuff. And then we drove from there, I picked up the other officers. They weren't officers then, they were corporals. And we drove all the way to Camp Polk, Louisiana, where we were entered into -- well, back up. We were at Fort Knox for three months, and then battle training for a month in Elizabethtown, Kentucky. And then we were assigned -- the four of us from Norwich were assigned to the 11th Armored Division. That's when I got my car, and we drove from there down through Alabama over to Louisiana, and we arrived. And the next day, we were ordered to come to the commanding general's office. And low and behold, he was a Norwich grad, General Brooks, and a very decent individual. He came out as lieutenant general. And we went from -- they were ready to move the whole 11th Armored to the desert training in California. But we had to go to an interim location, temporary post in Texas -- Abilene, Texas. And at that point, we had six weeks wait until the other armored division that was in training had completed. And then we moved out there. What happened when we were out there, typical of -- they have -- each company has a normal staff of say, five officers. But when they're in training, they had maybe two extra lieutenants, so you all get involved. And then about every couple of months, they go by and say, boom, boom, boom, boom. You're out, you're going to overseas, or you're going someplace. SY: So did you take a ship? I'm sure you took a ship. Obviously, everybody took a ship. But do you remember the name of the ship you took overseas? PM: No, I don't really. What I did was the second the go-around in December, I went to my colonel and volunteered to go to be one of the select. I wasn't pulled out, but I volunteered, because I didn't think 11th Armory was gonna get over there for the fighting. So I volunteered, and that's a tough decision because then, you're on your own. You go -- you go back to the East, and you go to wherever they direct you. And then you get assigned to a fort, and you go as a replacement officer. And you have hundreds of enlisted men, you don't know anybody. SY: And you don't have a relationship with them. PM: You end up having to do duty on the ocean crossing. And I had about 50 men in the lowest deck, most every one of them sick all the way over. Four bunks high -- it was a mess, but you spend 8 hours on duty with them. But anyway, we got to England, and then we went from Liverpool, went on down to Frome, England, somewhat east of London. When the officers went and replaced officers, they enlisted them and went to another post. And then you waited for your assignment. And I with another officer, made a [forayed?] to the Rangers to volunteer to join our Rangers, knowing they needed officers. And both of us were accepted physically, but they made a stipulation, we can't change orders if the time you get back to your camp. If you have orders directing you to another unit, that's it, forget us. And that's what happened. I was already assigned to the 106th Cavalry Group, which was a recon outfit. And it turned out I was -- because I was Cavalry, I was in light tanks. So, I was in tanks the whole war and it was good. You know, and we got over to Normandy in late June. Not D-Day, but mostly, we joined first Army. Patton hadn't already -- his Army hadn't been formed. And we had an interesting time in Normandy. We were right on the east end, right where the water was -- and the channel. The tide would go out a mile, and we had to send a platoon of troops out every night to collect stragglers. People trying to -- were around. And right across -- SY: Who were the stragglers? PM: Well, people who wanted to get away from the Germans. French people. You didn't know whether it was spies or what they were. Could be anybody. And we had to collect them, and make sure that they were the -- had credentials and know who they were, so that they wouldn't cause trouble. If they were just going home to join friends or family, that was OK. But there were a lot of them. And the Germans were -- got quarter of a mile from where we were, and there was a river in between, flowing out. And we had to send patrols down the beach, and one other patrol across to make sure the Germans were there. And they -- we got fired on, and fortunately got back. But -- so we did all that kind of stuff while they were waiting for the breakthrough. And when we first arrived, we -- the first combat we had was with the 82nd Airborne. And they were cleaning up a couple of villages, good size villages. And that's where they -- we broke in with them, and then they left. And then we moved over to the coast. SY: So, I've interviewed a lot of Norwich grads who were in combat, and they -- a lot of them have very intense and vivid memories of their first experience with combat. Do you have intense and vivid memories of the first time you were under fire? PM: We were under fire every day. SY: Do you remember what it was like the first time? PM: Oh sure. SY: What was it like? PM: Where I mentioned about the beach area, at one point even though we were in tanks, we got out of the tanks and went down on foot with carbines and tommy guns to stop any infiltration by the Germans 50 yards in front of us. And dusk, day, and nighttime -- well, yeah, you do what you have to do. SY: Were you frightened? PM: I never was frightened. I was -- tried to be sensible, and you couldn't go into combat and be frightened all the time, because you had to lead 30 men, and I had five or six tanks. So if I was frightened, it'd be -- that wouldn't work. SY: Some people also talk about everything being very slow, and the colors being very bright, and things sounding different. Do you -- you don't remember that? PM: No. Guns sounded like guns, and they were noisy. And -- but recon, we were out in front of everything. We were the first contact, and we have to fight then until we developed how strong the enemy is. And then if we can't handle it, we move aside and bring the heavier stuff up -- infantry or armor, who are close by. So that -- that's -- and when it's under heavy fighting, often we as recon would be on the flank. We'd be making contact with the next American unit. SY: I read the sort of memoir you wrote, briefly. Your short memoir about your time at war. PM: I tried to stay away from the gruesome stuff. SY: Yeah, but I think it's important to sort of -- you know, to talk about it. Just sort of talk about what every day was like and what sticks with you. What sticks with you now? What -- do you think about your time at war now and throughout your life, did you? PM: Not really. No. Just another episode. Once in a while, you can't help but go back. But after the war, there were about eight officers in our unit, and we had a -- the original 106th was Illinois National Guard -- that's where they started. And they had a reunion every year, and we went to the reunions for about three years. And finally decided that it made more sense for us to get a group of the officers together, because half of the enlisted men we didn't even know. And they were having a good time, but we didn't want to invade their fun. So what happened was eight officers, a couple who were in our squadron and a couple that were in the other -- there were two squadrons. And we would meet in California, Texas, Kansas. I had them to my summer home in Maine twice, and usually wives were, are all part of it. So we had a nice good time. They're all dead now. SY: It sounds like in some ways, the most intense experience was in late September at the Foret de Parroy. Am I pronouncing that right? PM: Oh yeah, Foret de Parroy. That was a tough one. SY: Do you want to talk about that? PM: Well, I think I mentioned the minefields. SY: Yeah, but why don't -- I mean, I've read the description, but people who are going to be reading the oral history won't have. So what happened there? PM: Well, we as a recon unit, were asked to take the left side of the woods, and 79th Infantry had the rest of it. It was one muddy road and fortunately, the tanks could maneuver in the light wooded area. So we find our own. But it was dense wooded, rainy, mud, and the Germans were shooting into the trees. So the shrapnel was coming down on you from wherever. And the minefields were never laid in any rational form, you just didn't know. And I don't know if I mentioned, but I called one of my tank commanders and asked him to go to headquarters for the recon group. Because we were all -- five or six tanks were all here in a line. And he jumped off the tank and right on a mine, and dead just like that. And the same -- the next day, we called on the radio and said, well, it's a minefield we're in. We need the engineers to come down with the magnetic mine finders, and they came down. And had fire breaks, and they found a way to get in. But they get there and they tripped one of these what they called a Bouncing Betties, and the shrapnel goes out at three feet. I think a dozen of them were down. And I had to go with a knife blade on hands and knees to crawl in there, with a doctor behind me. And I did a lot of the shots while he was cutting off legs and obviously tourniquetting, and Novocain for pain, and then whatever else we could do. We saved them all, but it was -- it was a messy ordeal. Fortunately, we got -- we were able to get them on stretchers, and put them on the back of the tanks and get them out of there. So anyway, we were all alive, but not in good shape. SY: And it sounds like a bunch of your sergeants asked to be relieved, what was that? SY: Yeah, two of my National Guard guys. Well, this was toward the end of that month in the woods. And these were big stoic National Guard from Illinois, and I thought one was my sergeant major and the other was a sergeant. Surprisingly to me, they came one day and said, lieutenant, we've had it. We just can't handle it anymore. And I thought these guys would be sturdy and strong, and I was wrong. But I told them there's no -- if you're not up to it, you're -- got the shakes, you're not gonna do me any good. SY: Did they have the shakes? PM: Yeah, there was -- kind of think they just couldn't handle it anymore. SY: And had they been there a long time? PM: Well, they'd been with us all the way through to that point. SY: And had they -- PM: But they were in the National Guard for years before. So I thought, you know, these are guys that know it and have been promoted up the ranks. Ones I was not expecting to lose. But I replaced them with corporals and made them -- and they stayed with me the rest of the war. SY: And did the sergeants get sent home? Was it shell-shock? Was it -- PM: I never knew what they -- I wasn't gonna follow. They weren't shell-shocked, but they were just at the point of no return, I guess, best way of stating it. SY: I know, you know, it's much more common to talk about the difficulties of combat and the aftermath, but your generation doesn't talk about it that much. It wasn't something that you guys talked about with each other, and it doesn't sound like you really have lasting effects from that difficult time. PM: I don't think so. I would say that on all of the gatherings we had -- the eight officers, we never refought the war. We never get into that. We talked about things of our present day life, family, and just enjoyed each other's company socially. SY: OK. So then it sounds like you moved through, then around the Battle of the Bulge, what happened? PM: They -- by that time, we were -- then our whole corps had moved, the 7th Army. Seventh was the Army that came up from the South. And they had a couple of corps, and they split us off from Patton, and we moved. So 3rd and 7th ran parallel through France and most of Germany, but when the Bulge hit, they were the closest. So two of their armored divisions and the recon -- similar to our recon, they moved north and went, I guess, 40 or 50 miles. We had to fill that gap they left, and we had to spread our troops out, and that's what we did. And I was in touch -- one of the four officers that had gone to Fort Knox from Norwich with me, Hal [Solon?] was in that armored group -- recon group. And I sent him a note, and he was already -- he had lost a leg, and was already on his way home. So I got a note back when it caught up with him, what had happened. So he never got up to the Bulge, he had already gotten -- but I saw him afterwards. He was active with Norwich after the war. He did fine. SY: And then it sounds like, you know, by spring, the tide has turned, right? And you're having very different experiences, all of these sort of bizarre experiences that make for good stories, right? Like, rescuing the king of Belgium. PM: Well, that was the end. And that was a happenstance and -- because the town of Strobl was -- we were told to stop here in St. Gilgen, the town of Strobl was eight miles down on the lake. And this was a gorgeous lake, about 10-12 miles long. Across from where we were in St. Gilgen, was six-seven foot high mountains. Gorgeous scenery, and Wolfgangsee was where we were. And Wolfgang town was down here, and Strobl was here, and we were here. And these -- two of the prince in Teylingen, bicycled up to St. Gilgen on an afternoon. And we were staying in this hotel, which obviously, we took over. And they come up on the porch, and we offered them a scotch. And they, sure, that'd be nice. But our mission is we want you to come to Strobl and liberate us. We've got a lousy mayor who's a tough Nazi, and he's made it -- made life miserable in the community. So we said, well, we don't have any orders. But we said, well, maybe it doesn't matter. We'll just get four officers, and we'll take my tank, and we'll just go out it. At dark, got out of the motor pool. And since we're officers, we tell the guards what we're -- where we're going. So we did. Out we went about 10 o'clock, and about 11 or before that, we arrive. And they met us at the entrance of the town. It took us right to the mayor's office, where -- but it was really fun because one of the officers had been translating for the -- some part of the government. Translating German and French, censoring material. So he could speak better German. I could speak German, but not that well. And so Nat hopped out and told the mayor that he was a no-good son of a gun, and he was through. He was our prisoner, and we were liberating the town. But the whole town was out in their pajamas having a real celebration. And then they had a nice -- Teylingen had a lovely party for us. And I think we mentioned it -- SY: Because it was you or the Russians, right? In terms of getting liberated. PM: Well, the Russians would've gotten there if we hadn't gotten there. SY: And so the town was hoping it was the Americans not the Russians. SY: Oh, they certainly didn't want the Russians. And we did send a couple officers to meet the Russians. I don't know exactly where they did, but they did meet them and got drunk on vodka. But so I can't remember exactly how far they were from. But we then learned about Leopold the next day, and that's how that all -- SY: So then you already had done one thing without orders, and then you did the next thing without orders, right? PM: Well, we didn't take the tank the next day. We took that Von Ribbentrop's six-wheel Mercedes, the staff car. All full leather seats, a gun rack in the assistant driver. The driver was on the left side, same as our cars. Not like the English. And had a rifle rack right there for the assistant. And then you could have five seats in the back to (inaudible) [00:34:20], and beautiful. And we went to Prince Von Furstenberg's house. First thing he asked about 10:30, can I get you a drink? And we had Bloody Marys, and sat there and talked, and his mother came out. And [Gerhard?] was a real gentleman, and we did see him after the war. We went back again 30 years, and he as in Vienna then, and he came out to have a reunion with us. SY: This was the Prince of Belgium? PM: He was the Prince of Austria, the Von Furstenberg family, famous family. He had been fighting on the Russian front, and he'd come back -- by that time, he'd come back. SY: Fight with? PM: With German. He had a fight with a German Army against the Russians. SY: Right. So it's odd that you were -- PM: He was out of the army by then, and back in Vienna. But he had a summer home in Strobl, and that's how he -- I don't know whether he was injured or what, but he had the -- something happened, because he had been in the fight earlier. So -- SY: Was it strange to spend time with somebody who had been on the other side? PM: Oh no, he was in -- he wouldn't have been -- he wouldn't have been in the Army if he hadn't been force to be. That, he wouldn't. It's when Germany took over Austria. SY: Yeah, yeah, the Anschluss. And then there are some other things that were really interesting. First of all, you talk about hearing about Dachau. PM: We sent one our men to go to Dachau. SY: And then when he came back, did he report to you? PM: To tell us what he saw, and the horrible scenes that he saw. I have no interest in going, because I knew -- and couple of places we found -- graves with 20-30 people. They hadn't been buried, they just laid in the graves. So we saw enough of that without even -- for me, wanting to go. SY: So you weren't surprised to hear about the concentration camps? PM: No, no. We knew about that before. You know, we were well aware of the horribleness of the Holocaust. The genocide, if you will. SY: Because people back in the US didn't really know yet about the Holocaust. PM: No, they didn't. I guess they didn't realize it. I -- maybe they didn't publicize it, but of course, I was here and knew about it. And there were more than a few, because they were in Poland and Germany. What was it, six million Jews that they killed? SY: At least six million. And then there were -- and then, you know, there were other groups that they killed as well. So we don't know the total new number. So I'm wondering if there were any other distinctive memories of your time in Europe that you sort of want to get in the record. Have we talked about the highlights? Are there any other sort of, you know, critically important moments? PM: Well, there were a lot of them important moments when I got hit -- when my tank got hit with a 75 shell, bounced off, didn't hurt us. But if I'd stayed there any longer, the second shell would've gotten me. You know, we had close calls like that. And mines were really the worst, because we could find the fighting units, the guns, and avoid them if we could. But the mines, you just had to be on the alert, and suspect that this might be a place that -- fortunately, my recon guys were pretty sharp. And we noticed areas and checked them before we just ran over them. And so -- but I lost two tanks to mines, teller mines. And both cases, my guys lost their legs, because the whole plate of armor came -- folded right up, and just cut them off here. But we, again, saved them and -- with plasma and tourniquets. And I went to visit one of them after the war, and he was already outfitted with a brand-new Oldsmobile. You didn't need any feet, you could do everything from the hydra-matic drive. And so he was -- he had been a truck driver, and he was -- but my -- I had one episode when -- I don't know if I mentioned in there, when we were attacking the town, and one trooper cavalry was on the hardpan road. And we had gone up the back woods overlooking the town from another direction. We thought we'd coordinate two troops with -- and they got stopped by a road block that they couldn't penetrate. And they were fighting, and we jumped off from the woods. Turned out, the field was mud, and two of the tanks just went right in the mud. Couldn't go, they got stuck. My tank, I just told my driver, I said, George, take your hands off the laterals. Don't try to control it. Just keep the full speed. And it kept moving, and we did get to the one single road across. Fortunately, I did, because I had a platoon of the recon troops who had taken over some trenches close to the town. But they had kicked the Germans out of it and taken over, but they needed someone there to support them. So I had to stay there for about five hours, and the Germans were shooting at me. And I bet at least I had 200 rounds shot at me, but we kept moving the tank. Didn't keep it in one place. And I was firing up where I knew they were shooting. So they claim I might have gotten one of the guns. I don't know, never would worry about that. But I stayed with them until dark. When they withdrew, I withdrew. So we saved them. They -- SY: What happened to the two tanks that got stuck in the mud? PM: When I -- I called them on the radio and told them to abandon, but put grenades in the gun and blow the guns. So they were disabled. After the war, they were still there. Still there for -- I don't know where they are now. SY: Did you go -- did you see them? Did you go back to Europe and see them? PM: I didn't go back. We went back 30 years later, but someone who had been there said the tanks were there. But they were no -- well, they were no good, because the guns were ruined. SY: Right, you disabled them. I wonder how they got rid of those tanks. I wonder how they moved them eventually. PM: Well, they had to wait until there was solid ground, and they'd have to go in with a crane and pull them out. But -- so they might be in a museum somewhere around. SY: They might. Who knows? Do you think you were a good leader, and do you think Norwich prepared you well for war? PM: Oh, I think Norwich -- everything regarding the military and Norwich was fine and appropriate for what we needed as officers going into combat. We had --- even though we were on horseback, we still had a lot of background and realized what was involved in fighting. And so I have no bad feelings at all about anything that I learned at Norwich. I think I could put it to use and -- SY: And do you think you were a good leader and a good officer? PM: Well, I ended up as a captain, so I didn't -- and I couldn't get promoted. Because at the time when I was a platoon leader -- because we had three platoons, 17 tanks, and each platoon was assigned to one recon troop. So when they were out -- I usually was B Troop because I was 2nd Platoon. But the company commander and the exec officer never fought. My tank company, they were at headquarters all the time. They never were fighting and -- because 1st Platoon was A Troop, 2nd Platoon -- B Troop, and C Troop, and they -- we never fought as a tank company. So they just were -- but there were no promotions either. You couldn't get to be the company commander because -- but in the econ troops, there was movement, because they can move to headquarters. And from -- and a number of them did. They could go from captain to major, and be at headquarters in another role. And then -- and that's what happened in B Troop. Lieutenant Bennett, who was with me -- who I fought with, he got promoted to captain when his company commander moved to headquarters. But there was no movement in the tank. SY: No, that makes sense. So let's talk about -- because I know, you know, we don't have endless time. So let's talk about you getting home and what it was like. First of all, did you -- what made you decide to leave the Army? PM: I didn't. SY: You didn't? PM: I didn't. I stayed in the Reserve. SY: Oh, you did. OK. But you didn't want to be career Army? PM: Oh no. I had no idea of career Army. SY: What was you thinking about that? PM: Well, I had no intent, but since I was in the Reserve, I was part of a tank battalion that met in Stanford, Connecticut every two weeks. And I was serving -- well, I was a captain, but I was serving in a major's role. And we did training, and we did -- and I was in until '51, I guess it was. So I was still active. But right in the middle of that the Korean War was just getting going. Two business came to me and asked me to go to Washington on a dollar a year assignment to handle the tool and die industry. They hadn't had a director of the tooling industry in World War II. They'd had machine tools and related, but they never had tool and die. And then they realized that they needed that because there were about 3,000 tool and die shops, and those tools were put on machine tools. So you can't have a machine tool, you got to put the molds and dies in the fixtures. So because I would -- I had finished -- I had gone back to MIT after the war. Because I had advanced degrees -- these businessmen who ran beautiful businesses, you know, had come through apprentice route, didn't have college background. They felt they wanted a -- should have a college person down there. So I ended up doing it for a year, and it that was what I called a graduate degree in government. You learned about Washington. I was there five days a week. Came home Friday night, flew back, and then went to my office all day Saturday and Sunday morning. Got on the Sunday night train out of Bridgeport, got into Washington Monday morning at 7:00, and went right to the office. SY: That sounds exhausting. PM: Well, it was so -- it was a busy year. SY: Did you have a family at that point? PM: I had one son, and a wife, and a little house here in Fairfield close to water -- and very pleasant. And she had her own car, and we had two cars. And -- but most the time, she drove me to the station, and then she'd pick me up in Newark when I flew back. So bring the youngster down with us. But -- SY: Oh, sorry. PM: Go ahead. SY: When you first came back, what was it like to adjust to civilian life again? PM: Well, it was -- I had 90 days of leave. I got out of -- I had to go back to Massachusetts at the camp -- oh, I forget. And we had to go back there to bust her out. But -- and my sister drove up and picked me up. And I was engaged at the time, and by February, I got married. And we took a week's long honeymoon down south and visited some of the World War II officers I had served with. And then a week later, I was at MIT, and grad work for two years. And my wife and I lived in Boston in Needham, and she went to Boston University and took courses. So -- and then we had our -- we had our first son in the last semester of the second year. And -- but I had the company business where I had agreed to join the business when I was in the war. My brother -- four years older, had come back. He was in ordinance in India, and he was a major, and they sent him back to command school in Leavenworth to become a lieutenant colonel. But while he was back, he took time and took a look at our factory and what was going on. And he wrote me a -- about a 10 page letter describing what's happening, and inviting me to consider joining him as a partner if I was interested. SY: And was it -- had it been your father's business? PM: My father was the president of the business, and -- not the major owner, but he had three other owners. And what happened was I got the letter when I was in heavy combat, and I couldn't even read it for a couple of days. But then eventually I got around to answering it, and then right after, I got another letter. And I said, you know, I think two things. I've got to go back and go to MIT, and get up to date on business management and engineering. And then if I do that, I'm willing to join you, but I want equal ownership and I want equal salary, but I don't care about titles. But he was senior, and it worked for 45 years. SY: And over the course of your career, you witnessed, you know, the decline of American manufacturing. How did that affect your business and -- PM: Well, our business was -- well, I'd been out 25 years now. But the second generation -- my son who died, and my nephew who still runs the business, we didn't just -- we bought another business in Bridgeport and merged the two. And then started a whole new technology business in New Hampshire, which is doing fine. And the -- what's left here in Bridgeport is 20 percent of what it was, but the New Hampshire business has been booming. Mostly Asia and Europe, 25 percent here in America, but 50 percent at least, Asia and 25 here. And we have another third business out in New York State, and that's in small tools, and that's doing fine. And I had a business in Mexico for a while, and I started one in Canada for a while. They both -- I gave one away, and the other one just finishing up after 65 years. Winding it down, so that's gone. But the businesses are fine, and fourth generation is in it. My grand-nephews are now in their late 30s, early 40s, and they're digging in. So things have done very well. I'm out of it completely other than just life insurance -- should be. SY: So let's talk about Norwich. So when did you start getting -- when did you get on the board of trustees, and why did you want to back in -- you know, involved with Norwich again? PM: Well, when I was at Norwich, in addition to being president of the class and valedictorian -- as I told you, I was one of the trouble makers. With the fraternities, the old rules were that the freshmen would pay for the orchestra for carnival week, but not be allowed to attend. And I, for one, said that's nonsense. Either you let us in the fraternities before carnival week, or we're not about to pay a couple thousand dollars for a New York orchestra coming up for you guys to have a good time. Well, they didn't think that was -- the class ahead, who became juniors, they -- us -- they agreed to change the fraternity rushing to November. In fact, around Thanksgiving or after Thanksgiving. But they wouldn't rush the class after us, because we screwed it up. So they didn't want us. But -- and one of my father's business partners was SigEp, and he wanted me to go to SigEp. And -- but these guys were, we don't want you guys. Eventually, they invited me to Theta Chi, and I was happy. Then I became president of Theta Chi. And then later, I was president of the inter-fraternity counsel, which was quite a turnaround from screwing them up three years before. Anyway, I enjoyed it, but I -- we had bought land with Theta Chi across from where SigEp -- is where the president lives now. We had -- and Theta Chi is over there -- a new house. We were in an old three story big house on Central Avenue. We had the money and bought the land. And when I came back from the war, I wanted to find out what happened to the funds we had. Well, they had screwed around with it, and we raised hell. And finally they got back on track, and began to put some money aside and build a house. So I stayed with it. And for some reason or another, I stayed in the alumni association, but I was not president of it. I was vice president at the time. When typically, the president was invited to the board as one of the alumni, and Harmon asked me to do it rather than the president. Which was a little embarrassing. So I can came on for a five year stint. And then -- I don't know exactly what day it was, but 1970 was when I took over as chairman. And -- SY: And what was going on at Norwich in 1970? PM: Well, Harmon was the president. And at that time, we didn't have ladies in the corps, and Vermont College was independent. So a lot of things were -- I think we were 600 or so cadets, and now horses -- tanks were replacing the horses. And Norwich had built several new buildings, it was making good progress. The upper campus was -- I don't -- SY: And then Hart became president. PM: Well, Harmon -- this was let's see, 70 -- SY: Was is Hamlett after Harmon? PM: Hamlett came first. Harmon stayed until '65, and then the Vietnam War was a big factor. SY: And how did that change the climate of campus? PM: Well, I wouldn't say it -- we had to elect -- Harmon had -- I think had 15 years or whatever, and he wanted out. And we were able to get a four-star general, Hamlett, who was vice chief of staff of the Army, and a wonderful man. And -- but it was Harmon -- oh, and Bill Adams, who was chairman of the board, and Louie Cavat of the Cavat family. They left the board meeting when Bill Adams said, it's my turn to step down. So the three of them became a nominating committee of whatever we had -- 25 member board. They came back and selected me. I don't know why, because there were military officers there. There were others -- guys that -- SY: So what role -- so the Todds say you played a really critical role in kind of keeping Norwich together in hard times. So can you talk about those hard times and -- PM: Well, that was the Vietnam War, for one. And when Barksdale Hamlett had cancer in the back, and he had to leave for health reasons. It was a hell of job finding a replacement. Who in the Vietnam era at '72, wanted to be president of a military college. And we had search committee, a good search committee, and one was lieutenant general. We -- but he wasn't -- he said he's not up to doing that job. He was a good, wonderful person. And we interviewed a number of people, but military people weren't interested. So we came back to Loring Hart, who was head of the English department. And I had a difficult time -- one thing, the chairman and the president have got to have a good rapport. You got to work together, and got to understand each other. And Hamlett and I had had excellent communication, and there was never any problems. And he knew that I wouldn't interfere with his role, and I knew where the limits were. And faculty often would come to me and ask -- I'm not gonna bypass the president. You go there, not to me. And I told him explicitly and a matter of fact, I met the whole -- the staff faculty senate and told them. I'm not interfering with pay scales or tenure or anything, that's not my role. So we made that clear and -- but finding a new president, Loring was the best we could do. Well, you're on your way. SY: Nice meeting you. PM: OK. She's out to dinner. So that was an awkward period, and Loring was -- he wasn't good at selecting -- F1: Your car is blocking me. SY: Oh no. No problem, let me move it. F1: I should have thought of that sooner. PM: Anyway -- SY: So yeah, so what happened under Loring Hart? PM: Loring was a wonderful person, but difficult in selecting subordinance, putting them in the role. And that was true all the way through. And I just don't think he was a good enough administrator. At one point, I told him he had to go to -- back to -- I'm trying to think, the American -- anyway, they have courses for corporate executives. I said, you got to go to one of these for at least a week, and get some background in executive authority. And he did, because I lectured him time and again. You've got to get the right people in the right positions who are qualified to do what needs to be done. And you can't just select people because you like them. You got to know what they're capable of. So he got the message, and he did it, he went to San Francisco to let's see, American Association of whatever. I had been to courses up in New York State for corporate executives, and they were wonderful. They really helped you. And I met some Fortune 500 companies heads there. Made longtime friends with them. Anyway, we got that done, but at the end of eight years, we -- by then we had brought women into the corps. And that meant, you know, we had to clean out our barracks and allow that strictly for women, and we had to integrate them. And then Vermont College got in trouble, they didn't have sufficient endowment. And the president decided he was ready to leave, so there wasn't any conflict. And it made sense to us to merge with them, so we went through that merger during Loring's administration. And again, that was difficult because we had to change key people over there. And two or three times, he made the wrong choices. But finally at the end of eight years, I talked to the executive committee and said I think it's time we begin looking for a new president. Obviously, he and his wife resisted very much. SY: And were probably hurt. PM: Oh yeah, yeah. And -- but I said for the good of the university, we got to do -- got to do something. And it took two years to flush it out. And we were in the executive committee meeting in Boston, at the Ritz, and we had a vote. And the vote was that -- I don't know but the executive committee was probably 11 people then, and only one voted for him. And then we decided we needed to get a new president, and we had already had a search committee. And we had identified Russ Todd as the potential. And I can remember at that -- after we had made the decision on Loring, and we already had looked at and settled on five candidates, that Russ Todd was the best. And we went through a very rigorous procedure of criteria -- and of his background. And then also laid out an eight-point plan that he had to agree to as far as running Norwich, and what had to be done. SY: It seems like you two worked very well together. PM: We did. Yeah. The same with Barksdale Hamlett. SY: So what enabled you and Russ Todd to work so well together? PM: Well, because he knew right from the start that we had laid out what he had had to agree to to become president. And he didn't mince any words, he was very forthright about everything he did. Russ, you could depend on, no BS, he told you right straightforward how he felt and what he would like. And -- but as I said at the outset, you got to have a relationship -- SY: And he said, you know, that he'd call you and you'd talk for an hour -- for hours, and you'd give him advice. So what advice were you giving him? How did you sort of -- PM: Well, I can't tell you that, could I? SY: You can't tell me that. PM: Well, I don't know because whatever the issue was -- SY: And then how did -- it seems like Norwich got back on its feet, so what happened? How did it get back on its feet? PM: Well, one thing we -- when I finished as chairman, we really went after campaign fundraising. We had very little endowment back in the early days. The first job I took as I stepped down as chairman was a 16 million dollar fundraising drive to get us launched, and we did. We raised that 16. And then we had a very strong investment committee with Fred Weintz because of his Goldman Sachs background. He had connections and contacts, and so we were doing a thorough job of investment management. You know, using the right resources, and then continuing. And now -- of course, back then -- it was 40 years ago, we started doing that. A dollar is a little different today. And the new generation of business leaders and Norwich grads are much better off. And -- SY: So, I'm just wondering -- you know, I didn't ask you at the beginning of the interview why you decided to go to Norwich, but that question connects to sort of why does Norwich mean so much to you? You've dedicated a lot of your life and time to the institution. So why? What's special about it? PM: What's -- two things that started me, my family and my high school principal, Dr. -- Mr. Hedges. His sister was the registrar at Norwich. And I had grown up with horses. Two things. They felt I needed discipline, and I enjoyed the horse life. And I played polo with Norwich and things. So I -- and they had a good chemical program. And one of my dad's partners had suggested that maybe chemistry was a good start, because he had done a lot of work for DuPont. Knew about them, and said, maybe. So I said, well, why don't I take a chemistry course, and Norwich has a good one. And so the combination of all three. SY: Yeah, sure. But then why did Norwich continue to be meaningful in your life? A lot of people are like, yeah, I went to school there, who cares. But you really dedicated a lot time to it, so what is special about the institution? PM: Well, I think everything is special. Particularly, to see it prosper and grow, and begin to really have a place in the academic world -- strong place, and one you can be proud of. And comparing to Citadel and VMI and Texas A&M, and not -- nobody -- the officers that I was with in the service were Texas A&M. So they all were cavalry background too. So we had a lot of commonality. But just to -- well, the fraternity was one thing, and when we got rid of the fraternities, Harmon was still there. He called me on the phone and asked me to -- his -- my advice about the fraternities. And since I'd been head of the counsel and head of the Theta Chi, I said, well, sympathize what you're saying -- because they were disregarding the discipline. So I went up to Norwich and went to Theta Chi unannounced, and just observed and talked to few of the cadets. I called Harmon and said, I'm with you, let them go. They're a distraction for the university. And they did, and I'm still on Theta Chi's list because it's the Alpha Chapter. And I had given them some money, but I don't now. SY: How do you feel about Norwich as it is today? It's very different than it was then. I know some alumni aren't thrilled about there being civilians on campus and things like that. How do you feel about all that? PM: Well, I helped the merger, so I was there as part of -- and a lot of -- well, first, VC was in trouble. When we merged it, we were not planning to bring it over to the campus. But it became obvious after a few years that us commuting back and forth from classes and all of that, just you better have one campus, because you're not that huge a school. And I was happy at the second civilian dorm was finished -- 285 people, so that's pretty good size. And I also -- you know, this -- our society is not just the military. And I'm happy that we have civilians, but I think because of our military program and honor code and discipline, it rubs off on the rest of them. I think it makes them better than -- better students and better people, and their -- the value system. SY: Interesting. I don't know if I have any other questions for you. Anything you want to add? PM: Oh, I had not planned -- when I took the job, I -- usually, it's a five year term. And I had another board member whose father had been to Norwich, and White Chapel was -- that's the father that -- a name for him. And Bill White was a year behind me, and he was on the board then -- replaced his father. And I think we all agreed that Bill would be the next one to follow me. And I -- because I think because of his father's background and all of that, he thought maybe he would be the selected one, and he wasn't when Harmon and the others asked me to do it. But I said to him, five years is fine. He came down with cancer with four years later, and was out of it within a couple years -- he died. So then I was in deep trouble with Loring and getting into that part. Then we were into the school mergers and the women combat. Things were just ramping up, but we managed. But again, I say it's a relationship, and we had some wonderful people on the board that -- Walter Juckett who was vice chair with me. And I was a member of his foundation, and we ended with -- he had some stock in foreign companies that he'd gotten almost gratis -- Finland, Sweden, Norway, Canada, in the wood industry. And when either Goldman Sachs or someone went over and evaluated the value of all of what they all had, they came up to many millions. And when they were bought out, that went into the foundation. And when I was having lunch with Walter in Boston one day, I said, what do you think the foundation -- a portion was coming to Norwich. Oh, he said, probably a million. It ended up to be four or five million, because he had no idea what they were gonna pay. What they'd appraised it for and what it was sold for. So I stayed on his board, and he was in foundry and machine building for the paper industry. And I had a commonality of interest, and -- but Walter and I were just very good, good friends. And he was just a wonderful person, and I could go on with anecdotes about Walter. But we did a lot of things together, including lunch at the Waldorf. And when he went to Waldorf, the waiter came in, said, oh, Mr. Juckett, you want this kind of bread? And he didn't come there every day, he -- but he was very specific about what he wanted to eat. I can remember that. But anyway, those were little anecdotes of life with -- and John Charles Daly, who was on the board -- he was "What's My Line?" He was on TV. You remember that name? Goes back, you know -- SY: I think it's before my time. PM: -- 35 years. How old are you now? SY: Thirty-six. PM: Yeah, see that goes back. He was television "What's My Line?", and he was on the board of Norwich by virtue of one of the trustees. He was chairman of the -- of a boys' school in New Hampshire, and that person recommended him to come on the board, and we became close friends. And I played golf with him down in Washington where he lived. And his wife was the daughter of the former chief of Supreme Court justice, but that was his daughter. But he was -- you know, his English language was perfect for (inaudible) [01:23:19]. And he just -- he was very serious about important things, but he was just full of fun when you got through all the heavy business. He just had a good time. So -- SY: So you had a good time on the board? PM: Yeah. Those were the kind of -- but we had a 30 member board. We brought six from VC onto the board, and they were good people. Then we had -- well, we had a lovely group of women on the board, who -- one was a lawyer in Washington, who -- topnotch person. We had -- SY: Were you involved in the decision to sell VC eventually? PM: Oh, that was over -- past my time. With -- once we moved over here, there was no reason not to sell it, and it was sold to good people. So there was no question about -- it was great property. And if someone who -- from Cincinnati -- SY: Well, they actually sold it just, you know, 10 years later -- less than 10 years later. But it's doing fine now, because it's now independent, Vermont College of Fine Arts. PM: Yeah, I don't know what it is now. SY: Yes, Vermont College of Fine Arts, it's actually doing very well. But Union Institute, that was short lived and not actually great, but -- PM: We also took part of the Marshfield College -- SY: Goddard. PM: Goddard. We took the graduate program from Goddard, and they were unionized. And we got rid of the union, brought those professors over, and they were excellent professors. They were topnotch people. SY: And they were at VC. PM: At VC? SY: Yeah. PM: Yeah, but they wanted out of Goddard too. SY: They did, because it was so unstable. PM: Well, it was a commune. SY: Well, actually, because I've interviewed a bunch of them, they didn't -- they -- a lot of them believed in Goddard's educational vision, but it wasn't economically sustainable for them and their families. PM: But they lived out in the woods with a -- I went to the campus, and I agreed that they wanted to keep their undergrad program. Yeah, that's fine. And it fitted for a certain type of people, so I was happy with that. SY: Sounds like a lot of really important decisions were made during your tenure on the board. PM: Well, I think it eventually stabilized. And in perspective looking back at it, it's hard to know how we would have done it differently in light of the circumstances. Vermont's a little different state than some others, you know? Not an easy state to do things in. So you have to put that in reasonable relationship to everything else that happened. But it -- you know, it's a changing society. It's a changing technology, which I used to be involved with. When I think back when I finished work, and where the technology is today, and then when you think of the social media that all you guys fool around with -- iPhones and oh, whatcha -- Twitter and Facebook and -- you know, I say fine, that's -- social media's great. It's done a lot of business and advertising and all that. I personally prefer person-to-person discussion, either a small group or big group. I don't want to be texting -- driving along, texting. That's not -- you know, I'm not gonna do that. Period. I have a cellphone, and I don't use it much, but I have it for safety if I need it. But when you're 93, you don't -- SY: You're certainly not gonna text and drive when you're 93. PM: I still drive, but I wonder whether I should sometimes when you get on the road. The way people cut you off and zoom, zoom. SY: Yeah, it's a fast part of world too. All right, well speaking of person-to-person contact, let's let you get to your dinner with your neighbor. PM: Well, yeah. END OF AUDIO FILE
Transcript of an oral history interview with Priscilla Dole Hatch, conducted by Sarah Yahm on 11 June 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. The bulk of her interview focuses on Priscilla Dole Hatch's family and their long-standing relationship with Norwich University; also discussed are her experiences as an elementary school teacher and her memories of Northfield, Vermont. ; 1 Priscilla Dole Hatch, Oral History Interview June 11, 2015 Interviewed by Sarah Yahm SARAH YAHM: Hmm. Well, we'll keep trying. This may not work. We might need to reschedule but we're going to give it a shot. I've been having some trouble with my equipment. Um, okay, so you've been here for eighty-something years? PRISCILLA DOLE HATCH: Eighty years actually. SY: Eighty years. Was this the house you were born in? PH: No. No. When my family bought this house when I was four years old. SY: Wow. But you were born in Northfield. PH: Born in Northfield. SY: And where was your, what house were you born in? Where was your original house? PH: The house up on, um, the corner of Stagecoach and Route Twelve. SY: Wow. PH: Right across from the library. SY: Okay. So, you've seen a lot of big changes in your lifetime. PH: Oh, yes. SY: Yeah. So, I guess I'm wondering, so your family has a long-standing history with the University. Right? Could you talk about that relationship a little bit? PH: Okay. Which one? My grandfather? SY: Both. PH: Both of them. Okay. My grandfather Dole, Charles Dole, was acting president for two years. It was at a time when Norwich was having financial difficulties. So, he used his own money to pay the instructors. Of course, there were fewer instructors then than there are now but, um, he did that and then he had, four boys went to Norwich, his four sons. And then he had two brothers I believe that went to Norwich, at least one, maybe two. And then, my other grandfather, Ira Holden, he went to Norwich, I think, two years, because he liked to play football. That was the 2 reason. But then he had to go back and work on the farm. So, he only stayed in for two years. SY: So, I'm wondering, okay, so you were born in Northfield. You grew up here but I'm wondering what your first memory is. PH: My first memory. I don't know if it's from pictures or really a memory but I remember living on Cross Street. And it was a duplex house. We had a family living beside us. Excuse me. We had a family living beside us and there were two boys in the house. And they were, we all played together and had a good time. And let me tell you what I did. Uh oh. One day, I decided to take a walk and I was three, I think. So, I, my mother discovered that I was gone. And so, she started looking for me and they were digging a cesspool line all the way down Vine Street at that time. Of course, they're pretty deep. So, she went the whole length of the cesspool trying to find me. She thought I was fallen in there. Anyway, in the meantime, I had walked down Vine Street but didn't fall in the sewer, walked down Vine Street and then I went down over the bank, walked the tracks until I got into town, into the depot. And then, I went across the, I went across to, um, East Street. Now, I went to visit my mother's hairdresser. That was my point of travel. So, she, of course, was just about crazy and she went to, she finally got the telephone call from her friend, saying, "I have a little girl down here. She walked in just a little while ago." P.S. then, when I got home, I was put on a rope and I was able to, it was on a run and I could, I could move around that way. But I had to stay on that. The little boy next door, the reason I mention him, the little boy next door came running into the house one day, that day, and he said to my mother, "Don't worry, Mrs. Dole. Don't worry, Mrs. Dole. She's all right. I let her go." (Laughs.) SY: Uh oh. PH He thought was, that's pretty much, that's the first big memory I have. SY: How old were you when that happened? PH: About three. SY: About three, oh. So, that was a young memory. PH: I was young. Yes. SY: So, what was Northfield like as a kid? What were your favorite places? What did you do? Where'd you go? PH: Well, we had the, we had the concerts down on the common. We used to go to that in the summer. My father played in the cornet band and as he did at Norwich too. And, oh dear, what else did we do? We didn't have a lot. I mean, we just pretty 3 much played together as kids. My father worked in the post office. And so, he was busy all the time. We didn't have long vacations or anything like that. We pretty much lived at home. And then, I used to go up to my grandmother's, up on Twelve A and they had a farm. And that was when I really had fun, up there too. That was great, great sport. SY: What would you do? PH: Well, if you were really good, you were allowed to ride the hay, what do you call it? SY: Wagon? PH: Wagon! Thank you. The hay wagon, back from the field, when my grandfather was, you couldn't ride it when there was any hay on it. He was too nervous about that. But you could ride once. You could ride down. And so, we used to do that and in the summer, once in a while, I could take a friend and go up there. Then, in the winter, we used to go up to the sugar house because he made maple syrup. You went up over the tracks there and up on the hill behind the, I don't know how to describe that, um, he had a bridge that went across Dog River there and that he had built himself. And then, because he had to take horses upwards to draw the sap. Anyway, he had the sugar house up there and I was allowed to go up there. We would take an egg, one egg with us and it had to be a raw egg. We took that up. He'd put it in the sap. And then, come lunchtime, we had a hard-boiled egg that was cooked in the sap. SY: Oh! Did it have a maple-y taste? PH: Just a tinge. And if it didn't, we thought it did. (Laughs.) SY: Of course, it doesn't matter if it did for real. Yeah. PH: Right. SY: Absolutely. So, I'm wondering what your impressions were of Norwich were as a kid. Did you have much interactions with the cadets? Did you ever get on campus? Do you have any memories? PH: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Of course, they were always around. They had more freedom then. They were off campus more. Once we moved here, I don't know how it always happened but they used to come here and, you know, they'd get sick of campus food and they'd come over and have dinner or something like that. My father was acquainted with quite a few of them. And so, you know, I'm just talking three or four, something like that. But they, this kind of got to be their second home. 4 SY: And how did your father know them? Just through the post office or because he was an alum? PH: No. I think through the Masons. He was a Mason and they were learning to be Masons. So, they'd come over here and study, study the, whatever it is. Then, of course, they'd stay for dinner. I can remember my mother making homemade English muffins. They were so good. They would sit down and have those and coffee after their lessons. And they would come. It was interesting. They just seemed to be glad to have a home atmosphere and feel like they could come over whenever they want. Sit on the porch or what have you. So, I knew quite a few of them that way. Of course, we used to go the football games and the basketball games. Then, when I got older, I knew a few of them. Let's see. What did we do when I was older? I dated some of them. SY: Yes. So, you did. You dated indecipherable. So, what did that mean? Going to the balls? PH: I did. Some. Mm hmm. Went to the ball and to the fraternities. They had the fraternities there. We would have parties. One of the boys that I met that I really thought a lot of, after graduation, he came back to visit. On the way back, he was going to grad school in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And on the way back, he was on a flight that went down. So, he was killed unfortunately. Great, great, great cadet. Really nice, nice young man. Anyway, uh. SY: That's very sad. PH: Pardon me? SY: That's very sad. PH: It was terrible. SY: And how old were you when that happened? PH: I was, oh, by then, I was, I had dated him so I was, how old was I? I was nineteen, twenty. SY: And when were you allowed to start dating cadets? PH: It was interesting because then, if you dated a cadet, the town boys wouldn't date you. SY: Why was that? PH: They were jealous, I think. There was a definite demarcation there. You went with one of the other and you didn't go with both. You always had to make a decision. 5 SY: What, why'd you make the decision that you made? Do you remember your teenage thought process about it? PH: Actually, until after I got out of school, I did not date any cadets. I did date the town boys. But then, after that, I don't know. I don't know how it happened. A lot of the boys went away. That was '48 and it was getting close to the Korean War. A lot of them went in the service. Then, I met some through them coming here. I met two of them when they came here. And one of them I dated and we went to the ball, the junior, what was it called, junior. SY: The ring ceremony? PH: Pardon me? SY: The ring, uh, I always forget what it's called. The junior weekend. PH: There was junior weekend but there was a special name for I can't remember what it was. But anyway, it had the king and the queen and the whole nine yards. SY: Yeah. Yeah. PH: Yeah. SY: Would town boys be sort of mean about? PH: No. They just wouldn't date you. It was kind of a, a hidden thing, you know. Nobody talked about it. Nobody said, "I won't date you if you date." That wasn't even part of it but it just happened. That's the way it was. SY: That's very interesting. Let's rewind a little bit and let's talk about, because you're a teenager during World War II. Let's talk about what it was like during World War II in town. Do you have any memories of that? PH: I do. I do. SY: Could you talk about those? PH: I do because I had an uncle and two cousins that were in the War. They were Marines. I was, let's see, at that time, I was trying to think the other day how old I was when the Germans marched into Poland. That was '39, so I would have been eight. I can remember lying in bed and this was a direct route for the planes to go over from Portland to, I think, Massachusetts. I used to worry. I'd hear those planes and I think, "Oh. Are they going to?" You didn't know who they were. Whether they were our or theirs. I used to think about that, lying in bed and I used to think about my cousins, worrying about them, where they were and what they 6 were in to and so forth. Plus, other boys that were in town, you know. You worried about them too. It was an interesting time. I can remember when I heard that the Germans had gone into Poland in 1939. I was walking to school and I met up with somebody who had heard it on the radio and they mentioned it. It was a shock. It was a real shock. Because, of course, we didn't have TV and all of that to get instant information. So, it was hard to take. SY: Yeah. Do you remember deprivation during the War? Do you remember rationing? Do you remember blackout curtains? What was the day to day life like? PH: We had all the curtains on all the windows were all blacked out. SY: So, in this house, all of these windows were blacked out curtains. PH: All the windows were blacked out and, uh, then, they had the civil patrol. What was it called? I think it was called civil patrol. They would go out and canvas the town to see if they could see any light. If they did, they knocked on your door and told you something was leaking somewhere. SY: And was it your job to pull down the curtains? Whose job was it to pull down the curtains? PH: Whoever was near them at the time. Not anybody's job really. SY: Were those blackouts scary? PH: No. No. You just had them all the time. You pulled them down all the time. No. We got used to it. My mother and father were spotters, up on the hill up here. They would go up. Now, my father and friend went from six to twelve because they were working. My mother and the friend's wife went from twelve to six in the morning. So, they were up there all night. SY: Looking for planes? PH: Yes. When a plane went over, they had to notify. If it was going this way, they had to notify if Massachusetts. If it was going that way, they had to notify Portland. SY: And did they have phones with them? How did they? PH: Mm hmm. They had phone service up there. SY: Wow. PH: Mm hmm. SY: And they did that every night? 7 PH: No. Once a week. SY: Once a week. PH: They were scheduled. Different people were scheduled once a week. SY: And it was rotated. PH: It was rotated. It was constantly covered. Somebody was up there. SY: Anybody ever see anything? PH: Just the planes going over, you know. Yeah. No. Nothing happened. Thank goodness SY: No. Nothing did. Do you remember when all of the Norwich cadets left campus and enlisted? Do you remember that? Could you describe that? PH: I do. And then, the ASTP came in. SY: Yes. Could you describe that and tell that story? PH: Well, it's all of the sudden they just were, they left and there was no fanfare, not much fanfare anyway. There was more fanfare when ASTP left. They marched to the train and they went that way, as I remember. SY: Did you see them marching? PH: I think so. I know I saw the ASTP when they went down. SY: What does ASTP stand for? PH: I knew you were going to ask me that. SY: Ha! Ha! PH: Army training service? They were soldiers. SY: Yeah. PH: They were soldiers that, non-com soldiers, you called them, I think. They were up here to, I think they had different stretches like six weeks, six months, I mean. I don't know. I'm not sure what their schedules were. But they were up here and that was time we still had horses at Norwich. They had to, they had to take care of them. In fact, we had two friends, two of the AST people, their wives came and 8 stayed here. One, she could only get away like weekends. So, she'd come here. And then, the other one, she was, oh God bless her, she was only eighteen years old. She followed her husband up here. What the people did around here, they took them in. And they could live with, we had one that lived with us, the one I mentioned for room and board. And they just worked, you know, did the dishes. SY: And they weren't associated with Norwich? They were associated with the Guard or something else? PH: No. They were with ASTP that was up there. SY: But that was up on campus? PH: That was on campus. The boys were on campus. SY: Oh. I see. So, all the Norwich cadets left. And then, the campus was used probably to do some training for the military. PH: Exactly. SY: Okay. Now I understand. Okay. And you remember when they left. And you're a little kid, at this point, watching this happen, watching the country mobilize for war. What were you thinking watching all this? PH: Right. I had to, I don't know. It was just something else that was happening, I think mainly. I don't think, I mean, we knew about it and it was talked about and we were concerned. But we didn't really know what was happening, you know. We couldn't visualize. SY: Was there part of it, because when you're a little kid, any event is sort of exciting, even if it's scary. It's a little bit like a snow day like, "This is a new thing that's happening!" Do remember being excited by all the fanfare? PH: It wasn't that much fanfare, really. It really wasn't. Everything just sort of happened, you know. The fanfare was when they left and I can remember going down to the train with the girl that lived here. And, of course, she was weeping because he was going off. He was going to war then and she was going to have to go back home. She was very distraught. I can remember walking with her down to watch them march down, follow them and to get on the train. It was tough. It really was tough. SY: Was she waving? PH: Yeah. SY: Yeah. And crying? 9 PH: Crying. SY: That sounds hard. PH: They all were. All the girls that were here. Many, many people took the girls in so they could be near them. It just, they were friends forever. SY: Yeah. You stayed in touch with them? PH: Mm hmm. SY: Yeah. PH: Yeah. SY: Wow. Do you know what happened? PH: Went to visit them in Florida many, many years afterwards. SY: Oh. Look at that. So, what about rationing during the War? Were you able, what foods weren't you able to get? How did that, how did daily life change? Did the town feel empty without men? PH: Well, we didn't, we didn't have much trouble as far as meat was concerned because my grandfather had a farm and he butchered the cows or had them butchered. So, we were all right with that but butter and sugar were the two things that were difficult. And, of course, you had your stamps and your little coins that you use. It was an interesting time. You'd go to the store and, oh, and we'd take our fat, fat that you had that you dried out like if you had bacon, if you were lucky enough to have bacon. If you had bacon, then you'd dry that out and you'd take the fat down and they'd give you maybe two cents. SY: For the lard. PH: It was like a donation almost for the lard. SY: And what would they use it for? PH: They turned it back in for, they remade something with it in the war effort. SY: Interesting. Was cloth hard to get? I know that cloth was sometimes rationed. PH: I, probably, probably it was. I know my mother, my mother made everything. She made all the clothes and everything. I don't know if cloth was hard to get. I really don't. 10 SY: Okay. So, you remember your little ration book and stamps and going around and getting things. And was cooking different? Did you cook differently than you had before the war? PH: If you had a pound of bacon, you stretched, I mean a pound of hamburger. You stretched it. You put an egg in it because eggs we could get. You put an egg in it and you'd put some breadcrumbs in it. You really stretched it to make it go. SY: Do you feel like you kept some of those habits throughout the rest of your life? PH: Some of them. SY: Because you also were a Depression baby. You were born during the Depression. PH: Right. SY: Yeah. So, did you feel that that influenced you as an adult, those early years? PH: Oh, it has. SY: How so? PH: My children tell me is has. (Laughs.) SY: Oh, yeah? They're like, "Mom!" So, what types of things? PH: Oh, dear. Well, I'm frugal. That was one thing that I learned. Make it work. What other things? I don't know. Maybe the way I cook. I think that might have some influence on that. And making food go. When you're first married, you don't have much money no matter where you are. You tend to fall back on those old ideas. SY: Yeah. So, were there a lot of men missing in the town? Did it feel empty? PH: Yes. Quite a few. Quite a few of the boys went. Yeah. SY: And boys you grew up with too. PH: We lost one. Tom. Tom Mayall. We lost him. He was missing in action, finally declared dead. They had a funeral for him here. His body wasn't brought back. They had a funeral here. And then, about two years later, he came to life. He was not dead. He was prisoner. I think he was a prisoner. And he surfaced. SY: Do you remember how that news was spread? Tell me that story. That's a great story. 11 PH: Everybody was excited. Everybody, whether they knew Tom or not, they were excited. SY: And had you known him? PH: I did know him. SY: Yeah. So, do you remember where you were when you heard that he was alive? PH: I don't. I don't remember. SY: Do you remember when he first came back to town? Did he come by train? PH: I don't remember how he came to town. I remember just having him here and his mother being so excited and, oh, she was so excited. She had other boys that were in the service too. SY: What a reprieve! Can you imagine? Every mother who loses a son is like, "Maybe it's a mistake." What an incredible thing for it to have actually been a mistake. PH: Yeah. SY: Wow. You said your uncle and cousins were in the War and they were okay? PH: Yes. SY: Any aftereffects? Things like PTSD? Were they different afterwards? PH: No. SY: No. Did they talk about it or did they not talk about it? PH: They didn't a lot. No. My husband didn't either until shortly before he died. I mean, it wasn't that he wouldn't talk about it. He just didn't talk about it. If you asked him something, he would answer you, but he was not, he just didn't make a big deal out of it. That's the only way I can describe it. SY: But then, before he died, he felt the need to talk about it. PH: He did talk about it more. Yes. He was an avid Marine. He was very proud to be a Marine. The other two cousins, actually I had several, my favorite cousin, he was in and his brother and his father was in. And they met over in Okinawa. We have a picture of them where they met, the three of them in Okinawa. Uncle Ray, I think he was a general at that time. He graduated. He's on the flag up there at Norwich. Are they still there, the flags in the chapel? 12 SY: I think so. PH: And his two sons. He met his two sons over there. That was kind of nice. SY: So, he had been a Norwich graduate as well. PH: Mm hmm. SY: So how did you meet your husband? PH: In college. SY: And where did you go to school? PH: At Castleton. SY: You went to Castleton. You met him at Castleton. After the War? PH: Yes. Oh, yes. SY: What did you study? PH: On campus. SY: No. What did you study? PH: What did I study? Oh, teaching. I was a teacher too and he was a teacher. SY: What subject? Or did you teach elementary? PH: I taught elementary and he taught junior high. Then, another interesting thing that happened to me, I laugh about it now. They had a course. I don't know if you've heard about it. They had a course here in Norwich in aviation, in the summer. You've heard about it? Okay. I can't think of his name, the one that taught. Oh, he was wonderful. All of them were. Anyway, I took that course. One day, it hit me. I said, "I'm the first girl to go to Norwich, to take a course and go to Norwich in our family." It was like, okay, so there was my uncle, my grandfather, and my father and brothers. And then, I had the chance to go. SY: You might have been one of the first girls ever to take a class at Norwich! PH: That's right. SY: So, what year was this and tell me what it was like? 13 PH: I think it was 1950. Oh, we had a wonderful time. It was all teachers. I used the material a lot afterwards. I wish I could think of the man's name. SY: And what were you learning? Were you learning to actually fly? PH: Aviation. Mm hmm. Well, we had an hour, two hours in the simulator, the simulator here. We did a lot with, we learned how they studied air currents and all of that and the principals of flying. Enough so that we could take it back and give the kids an understanding of it. They loved it. I did a unit on it afterwards, the first year afterwards. Oh, it was so much fun because they got so excited to be able to do something so different. We had to make planes. They had to fly. I can't remember how long they had to fly but they did. We had to pass that. That was very important we passed that. SY: So, you had to make planes, like miniature planes, and they had to fly successfully so that you could demonstrate understanding aerodynamics. PH: Right. Right. SY: And you got to be in a flight simulator. PH: You got to be in the flight simulator. We took a trip to Sikorsky in Connecticut where, you know, they were building, they were building, I think, helicopters. Maybe they're doing that now. I'm not sure. Anyway, yeah. We had to fly. It was just a wonderful course. Nobody could ask for a better course. They were working so hard to make it successful. They really just put their all into it. SY: And it was other teachers. So, there were other women in that course. PH: Oh yes. SY: Lots of other women in that course. I wonder if you guys were technically the first group of women to take a course at Norwich. PH: I think we were. SY: Huh. How did that feel? PH: I was excited because I liked the idea of going there. SY: And your whole family had gone there. So, it makes sense that you were like, "What about me!?" Yeah. PH: It was really fun. It was a different experience. I'm trying to think how many were in the class. It must have been, I don't know. There were twenty-five of us, maybe. 14 SY: I wonder how long they ran that course for. PH: Only a couple, three years. They dropped it. I never knew why. I always felt bad that they did. SY: Yeah. PH: Because it was a wonderful teaching tool. SY: And it's exciting that they were also attempting to connect to elementary school teachers, right, and create an aviation curriculum. So, it sounds like you worked for most of your adult life. PH: I taught until I went down to New York. And then, I stopped teaching when I went down there. I substituted. That was all. And then, I decided I wanted to be home when my children came home. So, I stopped working. I didn't stop working. I stopped teaching. (Laughs.) SY: Yep. Let's not make that mistake. PH: No. SY: You were working hard. PH: But anyway, yes. That was it. We were there twenty-five years. Then, we came back here, retired back to this house. Been here since '82. SY: I have some more questions. I'm wondering, when you were a little girl, what you wanted to be when you grew up? What were your dreams of what you were going to do with your life? PH: You're going to laugh. I wanted to be a teacher. SY: I'm not going to laugh! And why did you want to be a teacher? PH: Probably because my mother was. I suspect that was my motivation. SY: Where did your mother get her teaching degree? PH: She got it at Montpelier Seminary. There's a seminary down there. SY: So, that was Vermont College, wasn't it? PH: And then it was Vermont College. Yes. But she did not want to teach in village schools. She only taught in the country schools. She loved it. She absolutely loved it. 15 SY: Why not the village schools? Why the country schools? PH: The children are entirely different, entirely different. They're so appreciative, everything you do. You can't do enough for them. They don't have a lot, you know. They just are super kids. SY: So, she was never your teacher. You were going to the village school and she was teaching in the country. Or did she stop teaching when you were born? PH: The way it happened was the superintendent came to her and he wanted her, because right after she got married, she was teaching down in Braintree. After they were married, she came, they came back here. About five years later, I was born. And then, she wanted to stay home with me. I guess I was four at the time because I was going to be five when school started. The superintendent wanted her to teach and she said, "No. I'm not going back in to teaching until Priscilla goes to school." He said, "Well, maybe I can arrange that." He said, "I can't put her in the village school because the cut-off date is six." And I would have been five. He said, "But maybe I could put her up here in the center across from the library, up on the hill." He said, "Maybe I could put her in there and it won't cause a ruckus. Then you could teach." (Laughs.) Who'd do that? SY: So, is that what happened? PH: That's exactly what happened. I went to school up there for a year. And then, I came back down and I went to second grade in the village school. SY: So, you come from a, your mother loved teaching, it sounds like and you love teaching. I guess, where was your first teaching job and what were your joys and failures? I've taught, so I know there are joys and failures. PH: There are. My first teaching job was right here in Northfield. SY: Where you'd gone to school. PH: Yep. And I had what I'd call the best class that ever went through the Northfield school system. 1957, the class of 1957. And they were, oh, they were just wonderful kids. I've kept in touch with them all these years. I go to their reunions. They're just wonderful. SY: What made them so great? Well, what grade were you teaching? PH: Then, I was teaching sixth grade. I was teaching in an overflow class, an overflow group, because there were so many, they divided them. So, I only had nineteen. Perfect! 16 SY: Oh, because this is the baby boom. This is the post-war boom. That was the first year of that. If they were twelve, then. PH: That's why there was so many and that's why they divided them. I really considered myself lucky. To have such a class. Oh! All just wonderful and they've done very, very well. SY: What types of stuff did you do with them? Do you remember some of the curriculum you did, some of your projects? PH: Oh, dear. We had to stick pretty much to the, you know, one time, it was a Friday afternoon and everybody was like this, you know. And so, I said to them, we had to do, it was a literature, world literature. We had a little unit on that. And so, they were working around the Australian area. So, I said, "How would you like to learn to sing Waltzing Matilda?" Well, they thought that was a good idea and I figured it was good for anything else, right. So, the only way that I could do it was by rote, because I had nothing to do it with. I was singing to them and there were two doors on either side. The superintendent could come in. Of course, anybody could come in either door. So, I'm singing away there to them and then, I'd have them do a part of it and then I'd sing some more and then we'd do all of it. I did it that way. I happened to be singing and I didn't have the voice I have now. I happened to be singing and Walt Gallagher was the superintendent and he came around the corner and I looked up and I saw him and I don't know what, there must have been a look on my face or something. He said, "Oh, I won't bother you now. I'll be back later." (Laughs.) SY: (singing) Waltzing Matilda! Waltzing Matilda! PH: That's exactly what I was doing. It was fun. I loved it. I did. I loved teaching. That's all I can say is I really enjoyed it. SY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It must have been nice to teach in the school that you had gone to. You probably knew the, there were probably just a couple families and you knew all the families. PH: I knew the families but I also taught with some of the teachers that taught with my dad. SY: That's a strange experience, huh? PH: It was very strange. In fact, the eighth-grade teacher, I mean I always called Ms. Lyon, Ms. Lyon, you know. That's what you call her, I mean. She was very strict. When she was the principal, you know, you were scared to death of her. One day, she said, "Priscilla." And then she paused, she said, "Priscilla, call me Vesta. Don't call me Ms. Lyon anymore." Okay. (Laughs.) 17 SY: Yeah. PH: And it was the hardest thing for me to do. The others, there were a couple of others there, I didn't have any trouble with. But to call her, it was really wicked. Oh. I was so nervous. SY: That's hilarious. PH: I had been afraid of her in school and it sort of carried through. SY: What was your biggest challenge as a teacher? What was the thing that was hardest for you in the classroom? PH: What was the what now? SY: Your biggest challenge as a teacher. What was hardest for you in the classroom? PH: Discipline. SY: Yeah. What the expectation then of how you were supposed to discipline kids? PH: Well, of course you didn't harm. I wouldn't think of hitting them. No way. But, it just, I don't know, I never had that much trouble with it really. I had one incident and he's a graduate of Norwich. No names. He was a challenge personified, really. I knew I was going to get him. The others teachers had so much trouble with him and I determined, right at the beginning, I determined, "I'm going to win this child over." So, he came in. He did a couple of things but he came in one day and, uh, I don't know what he did. Oh. Yes. I had already put his desk down beside mine. I was headed this way and he was headed this way. So, he was sitting there for several things he had done and then, I don't know what he did now. I can't remember. I sat down and I put the children to work. I sat down and I wrote and I wrote and I wrote and I wrote. I put it in an envelope. And then, I put his mother's name on it and I put it on the corner of his desk. This is in the morning. He's got to look at this until lunch time. So, I guess you'd call it torture. I don't know. He sat there and looked at it. So, he went home. When he came back, I said, "Did you give your mother the note?" He said, "I threw it on the table as I was leaving." I said to him, "Well, that means you've got to wait all afternoon to find out the result. That's going to make it even worse. Isn't it?" And so, that was that. The next morning, I went in. He's sitting at his desk. Now, I went to school about 7:30. Early. I did my best work with planning in the morning. I went in. There sits Gary. I said, "Did you get locked in last night?" He said, "No." He said, "The janitor let me in this morning." I said, "Why are you here so early?" He said, "I just had to tell you," he said, "I didn't know how much you cared about me." Because in the note, I had written, "It's only because I care so much about so much about, that I really want him to do well. Seventh grade is very important because it will be the start of his really having to buckle down in high school and learn to do well. I 18 know he can do it but he's doing too much extracurricular fooling around." He said, "Nobody's ever liked me in school." SY: What a success that is! What a success! PH: It really was. I consider it the biggest success I had in all my teaching. I had written on the bottom to ask his mother to please come in to see me. She came in and we talked about it. She said, "What can I do? What can I do to help this along?" I said, "Well, I don't know." I said, "He's very fond of his football equipment." And so, she took his football equipment away from him and told him he couldn't have it back until I wrote a note saying that it was possible. So, I let him go about six weeks. I was going to win this one. Finally, one day, I sat down and I wrote a note. Put it on his desk. He took it home. The next morning, I came in, same time, there sits Gary, full football uniform on, hat, all this stuff they wear, ball under his arm. SY: That's very sweet. PH: Is that a wonderful story? I love it. I just love it. SY: And how did he end up doing? PH: All I can say is he now, I think he's the registrar of one of the biggest colleges in the country. SY: Look at that! He did all right, that kid! PH: I wish I could tell you his name, but I shouldn't. SY: No. Oh, you shouldn't. That's a very sweet story. PH: Oh, it was wonderful. I was so pleased. He was so cute. After I left teaching, he even wrote me. He would write me letters. He was one of the ones, when we had the, when I had the units on aviation, he really got into it. He did so well on that. He really did. He was interested and excited about it. I remember him probably being the most excited than any of them. SY: It sounds like you were a wonderful teacher. PH: Oh, I don't know about that. We did have a good time. We had a good time. Hopefully, they learned. SY: Were you sad when you were moving to New York, to leave teaching at the village school? Did you teach? PH: I did. I was. Yeah. 19 SY: Did you have a send-off when you left? PH: No. Not really. Not really. SY: So, why and you lived in Northfield your whole life so you must have been sad about leaving Northfield or were you excited about moving somewhere else? What was the, I assume your husband got a job. PH: I was excited about going down there. I just wanted to do something, you know, outside. I knew I could always come back. I liked New York. I really did. Teaching was different. SY: How was it different? PH: I had, I was called in to teach first grade one day and I was pregnant with my youngest son. And so, I kind of hesitated but I said, "Okay." I would go in. I had this little kid who, I had put them all to work and when you go in, you don't have any lesson plans and you've got to figure out something quick. You've taught school. You know. So, I worked on that and then, I was walking up the aisle, between the, of course, the seats were all together. I was walking up the aisle and this little kid stuck his foot out, tripped me and I just barely, just barely held myself up and got out of it. I got home that night. I said to Stanley, "That's it. No more. Not now." SY: What was, you know what? I'm just realizing your chair is kind of squeaky. I'm wondering if maybe we should switch chairs because the squeak is coming up. PH: Is it? SY: Do you think this chair is less squeaky? PH: Could be. SY: Let's try. We'll just move my chair over and hope it's a little less squeaky. Trade. PH: This one's more solid. SY: That's more solid? Okay. Then let's do that one. There we go. So, what was it like to live in Huntington after having lived in Northfield? How was life different? PH: We lived in Northport but he taught in Huntington. It was different but I had very nice neighbors. That made it, you know. SY: And it was suburb then, right? 20 PH: Yes. We even had some potato fields. SY: Really? PH: Yes! SY: Wow! PH: Not now. SY: I was trying to figure out where Huntington is. PH: North Shore. SY: North Shore. And where's Levittown? PH: Levittown is closer to the city. SY: Closer to the city. PH: And it's in the middle. SY: But these were, like, some of the early post-War suburbs, right? PH: Mm hmm. SY: Were all the houses kind of alike? Were they designed neighborhoods or were they older than that? PH: No. You know, Huntington was, Northport especially, they had a lot of cottages out there. People went out there in the summer. A lot of them were converted cottages. Now, they're McMansions. SY: Of course. Yeah. PH: It's entirely different. Even the house that we had, it was built in the fifties. When I go by, I can't believe it. They just sold it so I was able to look at the pictures of the inside and they've done some beautiful work in there. Good ideas. No. They're not side by side really. Now, it's condos and big senior units and things like that. SY: So, how did you like being a mom? PH: Oh, I loved being a mom. SY: You did? Some people like staying at home with their kids and some people don't. You liked it. 21 PH: I did. SY: You really like kids, it sounds like. PH: I do. SY: How many kids do you have? PH: Pardon me? SY: How many kids do you have? PH: Three. SY: Three. Okay. Are they still living out on the island or are they scattered? PH: They are. They're all down there. SY: That's good. So, you can spend winters down there with them. PH: Right. I said, "We left and they didn't." SY: Yep. What made you and your husband decide to retire back up here? PH: After my mother passed away, father passed in '60, after my mother passed away in '75, the house was ours. We'd come every summer, just doing the work that had to be done to keep it up. Other than that, we closed it. He was from Vermont. He was from Calais and I was from Northfield. It was just a given to do this. Get back to where it's quieter and less expensive to live. Right now, it's horrendous to live down there. Awful. SY: Were any of your old friends still around when you came back? Did you still feel like you knew people? PH: Oh, yeah. SY: So, it was easy to slip right back in. PH: Right. Oh, yes. No problem. Between relatives and friends, it was easy. SY: Yeah. PH: That's why I say I have the best of both worlds because I go down there for six months and I see all my friends down there and then I come up here and I have all my friends up here. 22 SY: So, of course, Northfield has changed over the course of your life but I bet there's also ways in which its stayed the same. I'm wondering your thoughts about that, ways it's different and ways it's similar. PH: Well, if you take this street, for instance, every house on this street, except for the one's that painted purple, every house is the same as it was. Off this here, we now have another street off it. That wasn't there. It wasn't spruces. It was grove up there of fir trees. It was gorgeous. They took them down. SY: Oh, that's sad. PH: It is. The Common, the Common down there has changed. And, of course, Norwich has changed. That's what we watched. SY: How have you seen Norwich change? PH: Oh, my goodness! As the buildings go up, it's just amazing. And all we ever had was the, you know, Plumley. SY: The armory. PH: Couldn't think of it. Yes. Plumley. But now they have Kreitzberg. It's just amazing. It's amazing what they've done. And that's all been since, except for the building up on the Quad, all these other new buildings have all been built since the '50s. SY: Yeah. Do you remember how you felt when you heard that girls were going to be allowed to come to Norwich? PH: Oh, that was great! Yeah. I thought it was great. Nothing wrong with that. And I was so glad when we had a girl cadet colonel. I was excited. Didn't know her but I was excited. SY: Yeah. What about it excited you? PH: Oh, I just thought it was wonderful. She did so well that she could do that. SY: Yeah. PH: She had to go over some hard bumps probably to get there. SY: I would imagine. For sure. Yeah. PH: That's, you know, the Common and Norwich, that's basically the changes that have been made around here. Not too many. 23 SY: No. I guess not too many. And, I guess, the house hasn't changed that much. No. PH: No. We haven't changed it. I had the kitchen redid. We made the kitchen larger. There was a sunporch out there and a little pantry. We put that window in which was just like this window. Did that when we first came back. Other than that, no. We haven't changed it much. I like a kitchen where people can sit when you're cooking and you can talk to them. SY: Who doesn't? That's what a kitchen is for. PH: That's right. SY: That's what a kitchen's for. I wonder if you have any last thoughts or reflections about Northfield, about Norwich, about I don't know, last thoughts. You're at this point where you're probably looking back on your life and thinking about it in some ways and, I don't know, what are you proudest of? Are there things that you regret? PH: Hmm. SY: That's a hard one. PH: That's a hard one. Yeah. That's a hard one. I probably do but I can't think of. SY: But mostly, it sounds like you feel pretty good. PH: Oh, I do. I do. SY: Yeah. PH: I don't have much to, I don't have anything to be upset about or sorry. Just getting older. SY: Yeah. PH: I said, "I don't mind." My son's going to be 60. I said, "Gee, I didn't mind when I was 60. That was a good age." I said, "70 wasn't bad either but 80 has been…" (Laughs.) SY: Yeah. It's been hard. Yeah. PH: Awful. SY: Really? 24 PH: Yeah. SY: Yeah. PH: But oh well. It's all a part of it. SY: It's part of the process. PH: It's part of the process. SY: Yeah. Exactly. PH: Nothing you can do about it. SY: No. There's nothing you can do about it. PH: I have such a marvelous support group here. SY: Yeah? Tell me about it. PH: Oh. I'm so lucky. I mean, everybody looks out for me. When I go away, of course, you see my one cat has been roaming around. Got a couple of those, another one, I mean. I have a cat sitter who comes in and lives here. He's very good. He just looks out for the cats. They like him I think better than they do me now. (Laughs.) That's what I tell him. He looks out for me. I get phone calls. "Anything you need at the store?" I am going to have a woman that I go to the store with because I don't have the stamina now to lift everything and put it in and do all of that so. She'll help me with that. At the end of the street, I have Bill Lyon, who, anything goes wrong, he's right here, fixes it. I had a leak in the basement down here along the edge. I have a friend that, her husband's an engineer and she said, "Oh, he should look at that. He can tell you what to do." So, he came down and looked at it. He said, "It's really bad. It's going to cost about $3,000 to fix that." And I go, "Okay." I'm thinking, "Oh, gosh!" Then, Bill said, "Let me take a look at it." He takes a look at it. The next thing I know, the next morning, I wake up and I hear pound, pound, pound. What is that? I go around and I look and he's down there. He's working on it. He's fixing it. He fixed it! All fixed. SY: They're taking good care of you. PH: Yeah. SY: Yeah. I know another question I have – town/gown relations. How have you seen the relationship between Norwich and the town change over time? PH: Very good question. Very good question, because there's always been, the only word I can use is jealousy, a bit of jealousy of Norwich. I always say, "If it wasn't 25 for Norwich, Northfield would be Bethel." You know Bethel? Northfield would be Bethel! I said, "I don't know how you can say that because, I mean, yes, they've taken a lot of the houses over here, down." They've done things that are maybe not to everybody's liking but the good they do. Helping with the EMTs. There's just so many things that they are responsible for, helping with the police department, the money they give for that. Sure, granted, they use them. I think people resent the fact that there's no tax and nothing coming in to the tax indecipherable, but it's a college. SY: Did the cadets also have a reputation for being kind of wild at different points in time? PH: Yes. SY: Carousing in town. PH: But it depends who you ask, you know. It really does. They were boys! (Laughs.) They would do some things some times. I don't know if you ever notice the centennial stairs had chips on them. Those chips were made, if I can remember, those chips were made, I believe, I'm going to say 1950 but give it a couple years either way. They did things like that. They rolled a cannonball down those stairs. SY: Oh my. PH: That was bad. SY: Wow. PH: It was bad but it's kind of funny now. SY: Do you remember when all the horses, during the War, all the horses left at one point, didn't they? Do you remember that? Visually, what was it like? How did the leave? PH: They must have put them on a train. Must have. SY: You didn't see it? PH: I didn't see that. That was right after the ASTP left, about that same time, '40s that they left. Oh, I know what I wanted to show you. SY: Okay. I'm ready. I won't go anywhere. I'll stay right here. PH: Oh. I'm sorry. Are we still working? SY: No. No. Is it something that should be on tape or not on tape? 26 PH: Not on tape. I don't think so. It's about the drum. SY: Oh. PH: I mentioned the drum. SY: And where does the drum come from again? PH: Will that be all right? SY: Yeah. Okay. So, tell me again about William Holden. PH: He was in Gettysburg. He came back here to Northfield. He was a very active man. It will tell you some of this in there. No. Maybe it won't. He ended up having a farm up on 12A. He was in the slate business with my other grandfather that lived on Dole Hill. That's where that comes from. I forgot how hold he was when he went into the Corp. Anyway, he was there for the duration of that. Then, he came back. He did a lot of things but he was a great part of the town business, things that went on. I believe he was also in the legislature. He just kind of had his hand in every pot. SY: Did you hear stories about him growing up? PH: Let's see. I was pretty young when he died. I can just barely remember him. SY: This is Holden or Dole? PH: Holden. SY: Holden. So, your grandfather you remember? PH: Yes. SY: Yes. PH: Well, not very well. Grandfather Dole, no not very well because died in, actually I can't remember him. He died in '29 and I was born in '31. SY: Okay. So, you never met him. PH: Never met him. SY: Yeah. 27 PH: No. I just know stories about him. Change the subject here, there's a book. There are two journals, big fat books like this. You know them. I think they go from 1885 to – SY: This is Norwich history? PH: Yeah. SY: The Ellis? Ellis? Yeah. PH: Okay? All right. It tells you about Dole. SY: About Dole? Yeah. I actually wonder about your father too. Do you know what his experiences were like at Norwich as a cadet and did he enter the service afterwards? PH: I could tell you a story. SY: Yeah. Tell me a story. PH: When he was at Norwich, he used to go home on the weekend. You could go home on the weekend. His mother made all sorts of goodies, little pies, cakes, and everything. He'd come down and he'd sell them to the cadets. There's stories about him coming back with great big boxes of goodies. They'd all be waiting for him when he got there. SY: He was a little entrepreneur. PH: Yes. He was. SY: Do you also remember, after the War, when married Norwich students were living in this sort of family housing? Do you remember that? PH: Mm hmm. SY: And it was, I guess it was over by the intersection with Route - PH: It's on 12A. SY: Yeah. Do you remember that? PH: Mm hmm. SY: What was that like? 28 PH: They were little duplex houses. There was one bedroom, one living room, sort of a dining room, and the kitchen was off that. That's what they were, pretty crude, but livable. That's where, they lived there. A lot of professors lived there too. SY: Yeah. PH: For housing. SY: For housing. People were desperate for housing after the War. Well, I don't think I have any other questions. That was great. Then, this article about the drum, where was this from? What newspaper? PH: Okay. I don't know. See, my grandmother, great-grandmother, W.W.'s wife, so that's in the late 1800s, she would take anything that was happening in the paper about them. See, even down here, there's something, I think. Isn't there? SY: Yeah. PH: Right here. Were they celebrating a – SY: Yeah. PH: She had a book, a medical book and I wish I had it downstairs. She would paste articles in it. So, I don't know whether that came from a Vermont paper or, doesn't look like a Northfield paper. SY: No. It doesn't. I don't know. Well, I'll hand it over and we'll see if we can figure it out. PH: I figured it's documentation. As you read it, you'll see, because they never had anything to know. SY: Anything about the drum. PH: Anything about the drum. SY: Your family donated it but they don't know anything about it. PH: W.W. donated it. SY: I'll go find out what the deal is with it. PH: I'd love to know when you find out. SY: I will. 29 PH: Because I've never known. I mentioned it once when I was up there and they didn't have a clue. SY: There's a new registrar. He's very conscientious. End of Recording
Collected data and research material presented in the monograph are a result of financing of the Polish science budget in the years 2011−14; the research project was financed by the National Science Centre according to decision no. DEC-2011/01/B/HS4/04744. The project that resulted in this monograph was financed from public funds for education for 2011 − 2014, the National Science Center under Contract No. DEC-2011/01/B/HS4/04744. ; Value-Based Working Capital Management analyzes the causes and effects of improper cash flow management between entrepreneurial organizations with varying levels of risk. This work looks at the motives and criteria for decision-making by entrepreneurs in their efforts to protect the financial security of their businesses and manage financial liquidity. Michalski argues that businesses exposed to greater risk need a different approach to managing liquidity levels. The scientific aim of this monograph is to present the essence of financial liquidity management under specific conditions faced by enterprises with risk and uncertainty. Enterprises differ from one another in risk sensitivity. This difference affects the area of taking decisions by the managers of those enterprises. The result of interactions between levels of liquidity and sensitivity to risk affects the managers of such enterprises (Altman 1984; Tobin 1958; Back 2001; Tobin 1969). In this monograph the research hypothesis is the claim that enterprises with a higher sensitivity to risk are very different from enterprises with a lower sensitivity to risk, resulting in a different approach to managing their working capital. Enterprise managing teams react to risk, and this reaction is adjusted by an enterprise's sensitivity to risk. Because of its subject area, the book will address the issues of corporate finance. The monograph discusses the behavior of enterprises and the relationships between them and other factors in the market occurring in the management process under the conditions of limited resources. As a result of these interactions with the market and the environment in which individuals who manage enterprises operate, there is an interaction between money and real processes that in the end are the cornerstone of wealth building. This chapter discusses the objectives and nature of enterprises in the context of their risk sensitivity, as well as the relationships between the objectives of enterprises and the characteristic features of their businesses. Enterprises operate in various business environments, but generally speaking, they all have one main aim: wealth creation for their owners. The realization of that aim depends on an idea of business in which the enterprise is an instrument to collect money from clients of the enterprise's services and products. Business environment is crucial not only for future enterprise cash inflows from the market but also for risk and uncertainty (Asch, and Kaye 1997; Copeland, and Weston 1988; Fazzari, and Petersen 1993). According to the author, it is necessary to include an understanding of that risk and uncertainty of future in the rate that reduces the net size of free cash flows for the enterprise owners, beneficiaries, or more generally stakeholders. Enterprise value creation is the main financial aim of the firm in relation to working capital components (Graber 1948; Jensen, and Meckling 1976; Lazaridis, and Trifonidis 2006). Working capital management is a part of a general enterprise strategy to its value maximization (Laffer 1970; Kieschnick, Laplante, and Moussawi 2009; Lyland, and Pyle 1977). This chapter presents a definition of financial liquidity and liquidity-level measurements. This chapter contains four subchapters that address the specific role of short-term financial decisions, a classification of definitions of financial liquidity, sources of information about liquidity level, and liquidity-level measurements (Lazaridis and Tryfonidis 2006; Long, Malitz, and Ravid 1993; Kieschnick, Laplante, and Moussawi 2009). Financial liquidity definition and liquidity-level measurements Here we have an opportunity to present the author's opinion on what assets should be financed with short-term funds and what the level of liquidity is in an enterprise (Michalski 2012a). The discussion also pertains to the issue of the dividing line between long-term and short-term decisions, with greater emphasis on the durability of their effects, rather than the decision-making speed. This section also attempts to answer the question: What are the short-term effects of operations under conditions of uncertainty and risk? The reason for the considerations in this section is the need to characterize the decisions that affect the level of enterprise liquidity. The research hypothesis of this monograph assumes that differences between more risk sensitive and less risk sensitive enterprises are seen in liquidity management. Simply because the enterprises, during financial liquidity management, take into account the differences in their risk sensitivity. This chapter discusses the relationship between firm value and business risk sensitivity. The chapter starts with a presentation of intrinsic liquidity value and firm reactions to market liquidity value. This is the basis for target liquidity level in the enterprise. Liquid assets are the main part of working capital assets, so the next part of the chapter focuses on working capital investment strategies and strategies of financing such investments in working capital in the context of firm value creation. The chapter concludes that, from a firm-value-creation point of view, more risk-sensitive entities should use flexible-conservative strategies, while less risk-sensitive entities have the freedom to use restrictive-aggressive strategies. In the context of a crisis, this is the clear answer and explanation for higher levels of working capital investments observed empirically during and after a crisis. The determinants of intrinsic value of liquidity are attributed to liquidity by enterprise management. Enterprises in which financial liquidity has a high internal value will have a tendency to maintain reasonable liquid resource assets at a higher level. The levels of stocks of funds maintained by enterprises are also the result of the relationship between the liquidity market value and the intrinsic value of liquidity. It demonstrates how to approach the estimation of liquidity and presents the market value of liquidity. Having connected this information with the knowledge of manifestations of the internal liquidity, we can offer an explanation as to why the target (and also probably the optimal) level of liquidity for enterprises with higher-than-average risk sensitivity is at a higher level than the corresponding target (optimal) level for enterprises with a lower level of risk sensitivity. Working capital value-based management models In this part of the monograph we discuss the items contained within the cost of maintaining inventory. Using this approach, a model of managing inventories is presented. Theoretically, the value-maximizing optimal level of inventory is determined to be the modified EOQ model, presented as VBEOQ model. We also present an outline of issues associated with the risk of inventory management and its impact on the value of the enterprise for its owner. We also discuss the principle of the optimal batch production model and how the size of the production batch affects the value of the enterprise for its owner. Here also is demonstrated a modification of the POQ model: VBPOQ. The proposed modification takes into account the rate of the cost of capital financing and the measures involved in inventory when determining the optimal batch production. When managing the commitment of the inventory, it is crucial to take into account the impact of such decisions on the long-term effectiveness of the enterprise. This chapter also discusses the relationships between the management of accounts receivables and the value of a business. A modified (considering the value of a business) model of incremental analysis of receivables is presented, as is a discussion of the importance of capacity utilization by an enterprise for making management decisions pertaining to accounts receivables. Issues related to the management of working capital and enterprise liquidity are and will be an area of research. The analysis in this study focused primarily on working capital and liquidity management; understanding its specifics will facilitate the management of liquidity in any type of organization. Working capital as a specific buffer against risk has its special role during a crisis and can serve as a good forecasting indicator about future economic problems in the economy if a whole business environment notices higher levels of working capital and its components, like cash, inventories, and accounts receivables. The scientific value of the issues discussed in the book is associated with the issue of working capital and liquidity management in enterprises. It is also a result of the exploration and definition of the main financial objective of businesses and the relationship between the objective and the management of working capital and enterprise liquidity. The choice of topic and the contents of research resulted also from empirical observation. Empirical data on enterprises that operate in countries touched by the last crisis document higher-than-average levels of working capital before, during, and after the crisis in these enterprises. These conditions provided the means for a "natural experiment" of sorts. From that point, working capital management theory faced a necessity of even wider development. ; Collected data and research material presented in the monograph are a result of financing of the Polish science budget in the years 2011−14; the research project was financed by the National Science Centre according to decision no. DEC-2011/01/B/HS4/04744. The project that resulted in this monograph was financed from public funds for education for 2011 − 2014, the National Science Center under Contract No. DEC-2011/01/B/HS4/04744. ; How to Cite this Book Harvard Grzegorz Michalski . (April 2014). Value-Based Working Capital Management . [Online] Available at: http://www.palgraveconnect.com/pc/doifinder/10.1057/9781137391834. (Accessed: 28 May 2014). APA Grzegorz Michalski . (April 2014). Value-Based Working Capital Management . Retrieved from http://www.palgraveconnect.com/pc/doifinder/10.1057/9781137391834 MLA Grzegorz Michalski . Value-Based Working Capital Management . (April 2014) Palgrave Macmillan. 28 May 2014. Vancouver Grzegorz Michalski . Value-Based Working Capital Management [internet]. New York: Palgrave Macmillan; April 2014. [cited 2014 May 28]. Available from: http://www.palgraveconnect.com/pc/doifinder/10.1057/9781137391834 OSCOLA Grzegorz Michalski , Value-Based Working Capital Management , Palgrave Macmillan April 2014 ; Author Biography Grzegorz Michalski is Assistant Professor of Corporate Finance at the Wroclaw University of Economics, Poland. His main areas of research are Business Finance and Financial Liquidity Management. He is currently studying the liquidity decisions made by organizations. He is the author or co-author of over 80 papers and 10 books, and sits on the editorial board of international conferences and journals. Reviews 'Due to the recent financial crisis, interest in the topic of working capital has grown significantly to both theory and practice. The research results presented by Grzegorz Michalski contribute to the development of a comprehensive theory of liquidity management and the creation of an integrated working capital and liquidity for different types of business model. The job is processed on a high quality level." -Marek Panfil, Ph.D, Director of Business Valuation Department Warsaw School of Economics 'The book of Grzegorz Michalski is a very good publication that has found the right balance between theory and practical aspects of financial liquidity management. 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