Suchergebnisse

Issue 71.1 of the Review for Religious, 2012. This was the final issue. ; Volume 71 2012 Editor Michael G. Harter sj Associate Editor Garth L. Hallett sj Book Review Editor Rosemary Jermann Scripture Scope Eugene Hensell osb Editorial Staff Mary Ann Foppe Tracy Gramm Judy Sharp e v i e w f o r r e l i g i o u s A Journal of Catholic Spirituality contents prisms 4 Prisms Ignatian spirituality 8 Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? We Are Sent Kathleen Hughes rscj explores the provocative parallels between the Four Weeks of the Spiritual Exercises and the four-part rhythm of the Eucharist as two ways we are caught up in the work of God in Christ, and two invitations to replicate the whole life, death, and rising of Jesus. This article was one of the keynote presentations at Ignatian Spirituality Conference V held in St. Louis, Missouri, July 21-24, 2011. 29 Without the Drama: The Transition from Third to Fourth Week Ronald Mercier sj explores how those who make the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius are invited to enter into a grand silence where they contemplate the empty space without answers that follows the crucifixion—the space that remains the context of our lives, the place of our ministries, and the space within which joy dawns for those who know the Risen Lord. Questions for Reflection 58 Finding or Seeking God in All Things: A Few Cautionary Notes Peter J. Schineller sj researches the phrase "finding God in all things," common in writings about Ignatian spirituality, and discovers that it is rare in the writings of Ignatius. He finds that phrases such as "searching for and seeking God in all things" more accurately describe the Ignatian approach. 2 Review for Religious sharing experience 69 The Warmth, the Will, and the Way Ben Harrison mc is discovering that it helps him be more consistent in his spiritual journey if he is attentive to the warmth of the Spirit's presence in his heart and to the vows as an expression of the will to move deeper in his relationship with God. 78 Getting with the Program A young man writes of his experience of coming to terms during the novitiate with his addiction to pornography. This article could be used profitably as a case study during a novitiate class or read as background for a community discussion. Questions for Personal Reflection and Group Study discernment models 86 Dialogue with the Radically Other: Models of Discernment in the Old Testament Ligita Ryliskyte md phd sje explores the rich imagery of the Old Testament and offers valuable paradigms to understand spiritual discernment as a dialogue with God. In this essay she describes four models of discernment that might be distinguished in Old Testament imagery. departments 100 Scripture Scope: Vocation and the Call to Discipleship: A Reflection on Mark 1:16-20 105 Book Reviews 71.1 2012 3 Review for Religious prisms 4 A wise man once said: "It's a shame to waste a good crisis." If that is true, Review for Religious is facing a moment of great opportunity. In recent years the number of subscribers has steadily fallen off, and the cost of publication has risen to the point that our future as a print journal is in jeop-ardy. The recent deaths of Fathers Fischer and Fleming have taken their toll. We have reached a critical point in our history. When my provincial assigned me to succeed David Fleming as editor, he gave me a specific mission: Assess the viability of the publication. So for the past year, the staff and our advisory board have taken that mission seriously even as we worked to meet our ordinary production schedule. While we all hoped to be able to keep this good work alive, the real goal of our discernment was not to save or to close the journal, but to explore ways to more effectively serve the church. In the past months we have consulted widely. We looked at the shifting demographics of reli-gious life and understood that younger reli-gious are getting more of their information on 71.1 2012 5 the Internet than through printed periodicals. We sorted through spreadsheets of detailed financial information. We looked hard at our available resources and realized that we could sustain publication of the journal in its present format for a maximum of three to five years. The hand-writing on the wall could not be clearer: Simply maintain-ing operations as they are will inevitably lead to closure. Maintenance, without change, is not an option. Part of our analysis took us back to look at our history. Our journal came into being in 1941 at a Jesuit theolo-gate in St. Marys, Kansas, where three enterprising faculty members—Augustine Ellard, Adam Ellis, and Gerald Kelly (later joined by Henry Willmering)—invited their students to edit and publish the papers they wrote as class assignments in what became the early incarnation of this journal which has served the church and religious life proudly for the past 70 years. Richard Smith, Daniel F. X. Meenan, Philip Fischer and David Fleming edited the publi-cation over the subsequent decades. Since Review for Religious was founded at a small theology school, we began exploring the idea that a theology center, rather than the confines of our office, would be a more logical site for the publication of this journal. As we realized that a network of theology centers around the world linked through the Internet could have great potential for producing articles and generating lively discussion, we began exploring that path. We contacted the moderators of Jesuit Conferences that have significant centers of religious formation in Africa, India, and the Asia-Pacific region—in parts of the world Augustine Ellard, Adam Ellis, Gerald Kelly, Henry Willmering Review for Religious Author • Title 6 where religious life is growing—to see if any of them would have an interest in assuming responsibility for the journal. As a result of our inquiries, we are engaged in a conversa-tion with just such a center about continuing the mission of Review for Religious. We are not looking to replicate the journal as it cur-rently exists, but are talking about re-envisioning and re-designing it with current and future generations of religious in mind. As a result of our discussions and discernment, we have determined that this copy of Review for Religious is the final issue that will be produced by our St. Louis office. Whether the journal remains as a print publication, or is redesigned for delivery on the Internet, or ceases publication altogether is yet to be determined. In the meantime, we are suspending publication and putting a moratorium on renewals or new subscriptions until our discernment is completed. To say that we have reached the end is premature. A hiatus or pause is a more accurate description. As Ron Mercier points out in his article in this issue, a rest is as important a part of a musical score as is a chord or a whole string of arpeggios. And such a time of waiting can be a rich moment. We are not sitting idly while the discussion goes on but are in the process of digitizing our entire collection. We plan to make every article, poem, and book review we have published available on the Internet. It should be an invalu- Richard Smith, Daniel Meenan, Philip Fischer, and David Fleming. 71.1 2012 7 able archive for anyone wishing to research the shifts in religious life during the past 70 years. I am grateful to our current staff: Mary Ann Foppe, who has been the office manager for the past 25 years; Judy Sharp, our receptionist, who has handled subscriptions; Rosemary Jermann, who has written the Bookshelf column; Garth Hallett sj, who has served as Associate Editor; Tracy Gramm, who has done layout and graphic design. I have appreciated Ed Hensell osb, Elizabeth McDonough op, Richard Hill sj, and Joseph Gallen sj, who have provided regular columns over the years, and Jean Read, Iris Ann Ledden ssnd, Regina Siegfried asc, Claire Boehmer asc, Joe Meek, and many oth-ers who have made major behind-the-scenes contri-butions. They have been an excellent staff. We are grateful to the countless number of con-tributors who have sent us manuscripts and poetry for our consideration. They helped us keep our finger on the pulse of religious life. And finally, we thank you, our faithful subscribers. We are grateful for your support, and we trust that we have been an important resource for you over the years. Please read the inside of the back cover of this issue. It contains details about how to keep informed about the progress of our discernment. We will notify each subscriber about the outcome of that discernment. Please pray that the Spirit will lead us to a good conclusion. Michael Harter SJ Rosemary Jermann, Mary Ann Foppe, Tracy Gramm, Judy Sharp and Michael Harter Review for Religious Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? We Are Sent I need to begin with a confession. I was given an assignment to speak about the Eucharist, particularly as it describes a way of life flowing from Weeks Three and Four of the Exercises. I am not an expert on the Spiritual Exercises, but I have been a student of the Eucharist for many decades, so I was happy to think about this topic. And, though the talk was still non-existent, a description had to be prepared for the program booklet. Many of you have prob-ably had the same experience. You make up a description of a talk right out of thin air, hop-ing to be sufficiently generic so you can talk about almost anything at all. kathleen hughes ignatian spirituality 8 Kathleen Hughes rscj, former professor of Word and Worship at the Catholic Theological Union in Chicago and former provincial of her order's United States prov-ince, is currently a mission consultant in the Network of Sacred Heart Schools. Her address is 541 S. Mason Road; St. Louis, Missouri 63141. 71.1 2012 9 But a funny thing happened to me on the way to the topic assigned. I took a detour. I stumbled onto what I regard as an amazing new insight about how the Eucharist and the Spiritual Exercises mirror each other. At first I thought I was the last to arrive. Then I checked with those who have far greater familiarity with the literature on the Spiritual Exercises, and no one had heard any reflection on such a topic. That, too, gave me pause and left me wondering how far out on a limb I was climbing. Nevertheless, here's the insight I want to develop in the first part of this talk: there seems to be a quite provocative parallel between the Four Weeks of the Spiritual Exercises and the four-part rhythm of the Eucharist. The gathering rites of the Eucharist include elements of praise and penitence, as are typical of movements in Week One of the Spiritual Exercises; the Liturgy of the Word is the gradual unfolding of the person and work of Jesus Christ, as occurs in Week Two; the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the celebration of Jesus' death for the life of the world, is the heart of Week Three; and the concluding rites of the Eucharist have an affinity with the rhythms of Week Four. In these pages I intend to develop this thesis in more detail, hoping in the process to give fresh insight into God's activity in these two parallel celebrations of the paschal mystery—these two ways we are being caught up in the work of God in Christ. Then I will move to a focus on the Eucharist itself, as it flows from Week Three, incarnates the intimacy of Week Four, and remains the abiding experience of consolation, chal-lenge, and invitation to faithful living, parallel to leav-ing retreat and picking up everyday life. Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 10 Part I: Parallels Overview First, then, before we look at the Four Weeks of the Spiritual Exercises and the four parts of the Eucharist in more detail, let me offer an overview of the resonances I've discovered between them. Both the Eucharist and the Spiritual Exercises are a series of movements or stages that, negotiated with grace, realize the Christian ideal of identification with Christ. Both are invitations to conversion; both, at their heart, are offers of holi-ness and transformation. Both the Exercises and the Eucharist have a basic psychological rhythm that facili-tates growth in the spiritual life. The Exercises and the Eucharist as we know them only gradually evolved to their present form. The Exercises began as jottings in Ignatius's personal notebook—conso-lations, desolations, graces received—and this collec-tion of insights developed into a practical manual as Ignatius gave them to oth-ers and learned from their experience. They remain a core series of spiritual exercises that are endlessly flexible as enfleshed in the lives of individuals. The Eucharist, too, is the result of a gradual evolution over time around the core of readings and the breaking of bread, making every age and every human commu-nity a fresh inculturation of a basic pattern. Happily, in our day the basic four-part structure of gathering, listening, responding, and sending has been recovered in the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council. Both the Eucharist and the Spiritual Exercises interrupt our ordinary time with extraordinary grace. 71.1 2012 11 Interestingly, both the Exercises and the Eucharist are filled with words, indeed with dialogue, and with spaces of silence. Both also make appeal to all of our senses and stir up mystagogical insights in those who are attentive. Both the Eucharist and the Spiritual Exercises interrupt our ordinary time with extraordinary grace; they help us to make sense of our life as it is unfolding before the living God. And both the Eucharist and the Exercises send us to live, in deed, what we have just experienced in this time of encounter with the divine. Finally, both these patterns of prayer follow, for most of us, familiar and predictable dynamics and so, for each, we need the grace to pay attention, to move beyond the familiar in order to get inside the mysteries. The First Week and the Gathering Rites of the Eucharist We come to retreat or to Eucharist just as we are, and we bring our history and our particular world with us into this sacred time and place. We come, sometimes breathlessly, from the work we have just left behind and the preoccupations that fill our minds and hearts. We come always with unfinished business and with distrac-tions, even burdens, of body and spirit. We come with our crosses and our inexhaustible needs. We come because we are drawn to a time and space of intimacy and prayer, of encounter with the Lord who will tutor our hearts, of transformation to new and deeper life. We come to be nourished. We come remembering God's goodness and God's fidelity to us, no matter our own response. We come hoping to touch our finger to the flame once again, placing ourselves, for this span of time, on holy ground. God's unconditional and ever-faithful love perme-ates our awareness in Week One. Each one of us has Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 12 been blessed with divine life; God's creative activity has showered each of us in unique ways and has supported and sustained us throughout our lives. In face of the immense goodness of God, we acknowledge our inade-quate response; we know that sin has hindered our rela-tionships with self and others and, above all, with God. Week One provides the opportunity to recognize sin as our failure to respond with love to God always present, to express our own sorrow and repentance, and then to know God's ever-greater love, mercy, and forgiveness. We reflect on our lives in light of God's boundless love for us, knowing that God wants to free us of everything that gets in the way of a loving response. The focus is less on particular sins than on our relationship with God that has been damaged, perhaps even shattered. Yet it is a relationship always available, for God longs for intimacy with us far more than we could ask or even imagine. Our personal history gives us hope: God is filled with mercy and compassion, slow to anger, full of kindness. God's response to our repentance is mercy and forgiveness. By the end of the First Week, we know ourselves as sinners, loved and rescued by a God who is so much greater than our hearts. These same heart movements are present in the gathering rites of the Eucharist. We generally begin the celebration with a hymn of praise and thanksgiving. We are then invited into a time of silence before the liv-ing God, and we cannot but realize our unworthiness and our experience of sin. In the language of the new Missal we own our complicity in sin "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault," and we join with one another in begging for mercy and for-giveness: "Lord, have mercy." Then the Gloria is our hymn of praise after the words of absolution: "May 71.1 2012 13 almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you your sins, and bring you to life everlasting. Amen." We begin the Eucharist knowing ourselves as loved sinners, disposed to open our hearts to the word proclaimed in our midst. There are two additional striking parallels between the First Week of the Exercises and the gathering rites of Eucharist. The first has to do with the cross of Christ, for the cross is prominent at the beginning of both experiences. The retreatant is invited to make a first meditation before the cross; similarly, when we gather for the Eucharist, the entrance procession places the cross at the very beginning of the celebration. There is nothing like the cross of Christ to sharpen our focus, to bring us to the sober reality that relationships have consequences, that the paschal mystery of Jesus' life, death, and rising is what has made it possible to draw near to the throne of grace. And here's a second intriguing possibility with the Eucharist. There is a presidential prayer at the conclu-sion of the entrance rites, another at the preparation of the table and the gifts, and a third after Communion. These are all, essentially, prayers of petition; they each ask for a specific grace that is dependent for its focus on the place of the prayer in the rite. We really could think of these prayers as "preludes" that name and ask for a specific grace as we move from one week to the next, from one part of the Eucharist to the next. For example, the opening prayer for today's liturgy, the Seventeenth Sunday, Year A, from icel's Missal of 1998, reads: God of eternal wisdom, You alone impart the gift of right judgment. Grant us an understanding heart that we may value wisely the treasure of your kingdom Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 14 and gladly forego all lesser gifts to possess that kingdom's incomparable joy. We make our prayer through Our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son Who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit God for ever and ever. Amen.1 What a perfect presidential prayer to open our hearts to the Word of God; what a perfect prelude to move to Week Two of the Exercises. The Second Week and the Liturgy of the Word The parallels between the Second Week of the Exercises and the Liturgy of the Word are easily dis-cernible. Both focus on the scriptures, and both invite decision; both are grounded in the Gospels and in the Mystery who is Christ; both the Spiritual Exercises and the Liturgy of the Word, over time, offer an intimate encounter with Jesus of Nazareth—healing, teaching, sharing meals, welcoming sinners, going about doing good, spending the night in union with his Abba, gath-ering disciples and forming their hearts. We reflect on scripture passages, in retreat as at Mass, one after another, not in order to know the scriptures better but to discover ever more fully the One whom they disclose to us. During the Second Week of the Exercises, like Martha's sister, Mary, the retreatant sits at the feet of Jesus, the teacher, drawn to his person, absorbing his attitudes and values, his choices, his preaching of the dream of God for the world, for humankind, for each of us. The Second Week, of course, is not full only of the consolation of spending time with a dear friend. That 71.1 2012 15 dear friend of ours also reveals to us the cost of dis-cipleship, the misunderstandings, the disappointments, the gathering storm of criticism and anger. We take in the whole of the life of Jesus Christ and are drawn to know him more intimately, to love him more ardently, and to follow him more faithfully. We choose to be dis-ciples of the perfect disciple. Empowered by the love of God experienced in Week One and by Jesus' friendship, which deepens for us in Week Two, we choose an ever closer relationship with him, no matter what. Loved sin-ners become loving servants, embracing and following Jesus, setting our faces, with him, to Jerusalem. It has been written that during the Second Week "We find ourselves drinking in the experiences of Jesus, so that we begin to assimilate his values, his loves, his freedom. This style of praying provides the necessary content of decision-making or discernment, which forms an essential part of the Second Week and is meant to be an abiding part of a Christian's life that is shaped by the Exercises."2 Of course, those statements also describe a regu-lar pattern of solitary prayer in daily life that reaches its summit in the Eucharist. God speaks to our hearts, opening up for us the mystery of redemption and salva-tion and offering us spiritual nourishment; Christ him-self is present in the midst of the community through the Word proclaimed.3 The cycle of readings, highlighting first one evange-list's portrait of Christ and then another's in the three-year cycle, invites our reflection on the life and ministry of Jesus, his proclamation of the Good News, his say-ings and parables, his teachings and miracles, and, espe-cially during Lent and the triduum, how his face was set to Jerusalem during his last days on earth. The Gospel is the highpoint of the Liturgy of the Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 16 Word, and we mark it with various signs of reverence for the book and with the tracing of the cross on our forehead, lips, and breast, praying that our mind be opened, that our words be true, and that our whole being be exposed to the consolation and the challenge of a Gospel way of life. The homily follows. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal describes the homily as a necessary source of nourishment of the Christian life.4 In fact, for a majority of Christians it is often the only source of spir-itual nourishment in a busy week. The Second Week of the Exercises illuminates the challenge to those who give the homily in the Eucharist. The point of the hom-ily is identical to the grace sought in Week Two of the Exercises, namely, to enable the assembly to know Jesus more intimately, to love him more ardently and to follow him more faithfully. Nothing less! Not entertainment. Not exegesis. Not personal self-disclosure. Nothing less than knowing, loving, and following Christ, choosing his choices, becoming gradually and almost imperceptibly more like him, putting on his mind and heart. Just as one chooses discipleship at the end of Week Two, so too there is a choice at the end of the Liturgy of the Word. As we prepare to move from the Table of God's Word to the Table of the Lord's Supper, we join ourselves to Christ and ask that we too be transformed every bit as much as the bread and the wine, that we and they may become for us and for our world the Body and Blood of Christ. The Third Week and the Liturgy of the Eucharist The focus of Week Three is both the Last Supper and the Passion. So, too, these two themes are conflated in the Liturgy of the Eucharist: "the Sacrifice of the 71.1 2012 17 Cross and its sacramental renewal in the Mass, which Christ the Lord instituted at the Last Supper and com-manded the apostles to do in his memory, are one and the same, differing only in the manner of offering, and . . . consequently the Mass is at once a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, of propitiation and satisfaction."5 The first meditation of the Exercises in Week Three is on the Last Supper in its entirety—including the preparations, the choice of place, the arrangements for the meal, the assembling in the upper room, Christ's washing of the apostles' feet, the supper itself, Christ's giving of his body and blood in Eucharist as the ultimate expression of his love for them, and his final words, his last will and testament, that they continue this same action in his memory. Much of this finds a resonance in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. There is, of course, first the preparation of the table and the gifts, the preparation of the altar itself and then of the offerings of bread and wine. There is the washing of the hands of the presider, a ritual of cleansing and interior purification in readiness for all that will follow. There is the prayer over the gifts, a simple and focused petition—a second "prelude," if you will, asking in a variety of ways that the gifts we have placed on the table will become holy and that we our-selves will be caught up in this action and be made holy to the praise and glory of God. Then the great prayer of praise and thanksgiving, the Eucharistic Prayer, begins. We tell the story of Jesus' life, death, and rising. We enter into Christ's liturgy, the endless self-giving of Christ into the hands of the One he called Abba, from whom he receives back his life. Our worship is an offering of our whole selves with and in Christ to God. That is our participation in the paschal Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 18 mystery of Christ's obedience unto death, our identifica-tion with Christ in his radical obedience to God. Have you ever used one of the Eucharistic Prayers for your meditation during Week Three? The Eucharistic Prayer is addressed to God the Father. Could we not think of it as a colloquy with the One Jesus called Abba, our own intimate conversation with God, as we ponder the mystery of the Passion? By turns, the Eucharistic Prayer "collo-quy" offers thanksgiving to God for the whole work of salvation realized in Christ; it implores the action of God's transforming Spirit; it tells the story again of the night before Jesus died when he offered his body and blood, gave the apostles to eat and drink, and left them a command to perpetuate this mystery; it recalls the events that fol-lowed the supper, especially the blessed Passion of Christ together with his victory over sin and death; it makes an offering to God not only of the spotless victim but of our-selves so that day by day we might be perfected through Christ the mediator and be brought into unity with God and with each other when God may be all in all.6 It is a perfect prayer; it is a perfect condensed statement of what we believe and what we long for; it is a colloquy, if you will, that gathers up and gives expression to the faith of the community in Jesus' salvific death and rising and our par-ticipation in that mystery. There is no better word at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, or at the end of our Third Week meditation on the Passion as we dwell in the silence of God, than the word "Amen." So be it. Week Four and the Communion and Concluding Rites We are ready for Week Four—Jesus' resurrection and his apparitions to his mother, to the women, to the disciples, to Mary in the garden. Always the message is 71.1 2012 19 the same: do not be afraid; peace be with you; go now and tell the good news; go now to feed my lambs. And as peace is the gift of the Risen One, we beg that same peace for the whole human family, and we ask for mutual love among ourselves. We approach the table of the Lord and receive the one Bread of Life, which is Christ who died and rose for the salva-tion of the world. Our Communion makes us one with the Risen Christ, and the last presidential prayer, the prayer after Communion, is a final "prelude"—a peti-tion that we might go forth and live, in deed, what we have just done in word and ritual action. "Please make this Communion take!" this prayer seems to beg. We become what we eat. Through the Communions of our lifetime we are gradually being transformed into God. We know that we ourselves and our world have been radically changed by Jesus' resurrection, and we embrace his commission to become the Heart of God on earth. In contemplating the love of God in the conclud-ing exercise of Week Four, we pray an intimate prayer of thanksgiving to the One who has shared his life so completely with us that we are filled with gratitude and with a desire to make a generous return of love. "Take, Lord, receive," we say, and in so doing we express our availability before God for whatever we will face, rely-ing simply and completely on God's grace. We know ourselves as blessed and sent. Thus far I have been developing the ways that the Eucharist and the Spiritual Exercises mirror and some-times illuminate aspects of each other. As a transition to the second part of this reflection, I suggest pausing over the words of the "Anima Christi" using David Fleming's translation. It was David who said that this prayer is a summary of the dynamics of the whole movement Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 20 of the Exercises, and he also described the prayer as a summary of the transformation wrought through the Eucharist. Jesus, may all that is you flow into me. May your body and blood be my food and drink. May your passion and death be my strength and life. Jesus, with you by my side enough has been given. May the shelter I seek be the shadow of your cross. Let me not run from the love which you offer, but hold me safe from the forces of evil. On each of my dyings shed your light and your love. Keep calling to me until that day comes, when, with your saints, I may praise you forever. Amen.7 Part II: Living the Eucharist David Fleming also called the "Anima Christi" a summary of the living of the Fourth Week in the everyday, so it is to that topic we turn, the living of the Eucharist. Many years ago I read a book by Gregory Dix called The Shape of the Liturgy, a very long, very erudite history of the Eucharist by an Anglican clergyman and liturgi-cal scholar. At the conclusion, around page seven hun-dred something, the author shifts from liturgical history, archeology, and philology to spirituality. He quotes the words of Jesus at the Last Supper, "Do this in memory of me," and then poses an intriguing question: Was ever another command so obeyed? Dix paints an extraordinary picture: Century after century, spreading slowly to every continent and country, to every race on earth, this action of Eucharist has been carried out in every conceivable human circumstance and for every conceivable human need, from the heights of 71.1 2012 21 power to places of poverty and need, for royalty at their crowning and for criminals going to the scaffold, for a bride and bridegroom in a little country church, for the wisdom for the Parliament of a mighty nation, for a sick old woman afraid to die, for Columbus setting out to discover the New World, for a barren couple hoping for a child, by an old monk on the fiftieth anniversary of his vows, and on and on. Dix lyrically enumerates these and scores of other instances in which the Christian com-munity has been faithful to Jesus' command, "Do this."8 Over the centuries the Eucharist has been celebrated by innumerable millions of entirely obscure faithful women and men like you and me, people with hopes and fears and joys and sorrows and sins and temptations and prayers every bit as vivid and alive as yours and mine are now. Week by week, on a hundred thousand succes-sive Sundays, faithfully, unfailingly, the followers of Jesus have done just this for the remembrance of him.9 This is an extraordinary picture of the sacrament that constitutes the community, of the event that binds us together, one with another and with Christians of every age, place, race, tongue, and way of life. The Eucharist has been like a wave of grace rolling over the community again and again across the centuries of Christendom, hollowing out spaces for the divine in the midst of the everyday. Was ever another command so obeyed? But after pondering Dix, I realized that when I con-sidered that Last Supper of Jesus and his friends, there was another question on my mind. When Jesus said "do this in remembrance of me," what did he mean by the this? Surely not just the Jewish pattern of the meal, though we know a lot about Jewish rituals, the blessing of bread, the number of cups, the style of blessing said over both. Surely the this is something more. What are Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 22 we being asked to do? to be? to embrace? to celebrate? What commitment do we make when we say "Amen"? Scripture supplies two directions toward an answer: one in the Synoptic accounts of the supper and Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, and the other in the Gospel of John. Recall the words of Paul describing the Last Supper: I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me" (1 Cor 11:23-25). Do this in remembrance of me. But what is the this? Have you ever considered that the Last Supper was precisely that—it was the last. The Last Supper was the last of a whole series of Jesus' meals recorded in the Scriptures. Jesus never played the pious ascetic, keep-ing away from celebrations. He loved a good feast. He used that image of feasting as a metaphor of the reign of God—a great banquet. It was said of him, "This man is a glutton and a drunkard." An even more shocking accusa-tion was whispered behind his back: "This man sits down at table with sinners, with the morally dubious, with the outcasts of society, with those living on the fringes." On nearly every page of the Gospels there is a meal or a reference to food. Jesus calls out to Zacchaeus, "Get down from that tree. I'm coming to your house for What commitment do we make when we say "Amen"? 71.1 2012 23 lunch." There is the story of Simon who threw a din-ner party but was an inattentive host, and of the woman who slipped in to minister to Jesus as he sat at Simon's table. There is the story of Peter's mother-in-law who is cured only to get up and wait on them. There is the Syrophoenician woman who would not take no for an answer, who spoke about crumbs that fell from the table and who expected—and received—more than crumbs from this man. There are the feeding miracles that tell us something of the utter lavishness of the banquet and that everyone will receive enough and there will still be something left over for another day. There are parables of feasts, of great abundance, of jockeying for places at table, of appropriate attire, of filling the room with those drawn from the highways and the byways. Even the risen appearances of Jesus include meals. "Peace be with you," Jesus says. "What's for dinner?" On the shore, in the upper room, on the way to Emmaus, they recognize him in the breaking of the bread. How do you recognize someone? Even at a distance, you rec-ognize the timbre of a voice, or a particular gesture, or the slight tilt of the head so characteristic of an indi-vidual. The disciples recognized Jesus for what was most characteristic of him: the way he broke the bread. What is the this that we are to replicate? It is the whole life and ministry of Jesus at table. Scripture scholars refer to this as Jesus' ministry of table fellow-ship. To share food, in Semitic times, was to share life itself. And Jesus shared life with an astonishing assort-ment of people. Everyone was welcome to sit with him at table, to tell stories and to break the bread. Jesus' ministry of table fellowship is a ministry of universal reconciliation, no exceptions. The Last Supper reca-pitulated the attitudes and values of Jesus, who opened Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 24 his table and his heart to everyone, who offered hospi-tality to all, who was himself at home with all manner of people, who knew the human need for nourishment of body, mind, and spirit and who was always present to the other—welcoming, reconciling, offering life. Do this in memory of me. The Gospel of John offers a second answer to the question "What is the this?" In John there is a very dif-ferent institution narrative. It is the account of the foot washing. We know the story so well. Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, rose from supper, laid aside his garments, and girded himself with a towel. He poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel. Peter resisted this tenderness until Jesus pressed: "If I do not wash you, you have no part with me." Peter relented in typical Peter fashion: "Not my feet only but also my hands and my head!" When Jesus had com-pleted the washing and resumed his place, he said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you" (Cf. Jn 13:1-15). You should do as I have done. In other words, "Do this in memory of me." I had an experience when I was studying at the University of Notre Dame that colors my understand-ing of the washing of the feet after the manner of Jesus. Notre Dame has a reputation for the excellence of its liturgical studies program and, at least when I was there, for the perfection of its liturgical celebrations: every 71.1 2012 25 minister rehearsed; every detail on a checklist; every liturgy perfect. And, during the sacred triduum, the lit-urgies were even more perfect! It was Holy Thursday and time for the foot washing. Twelve people moved forward, probably having prepared for the foot wash-ing by carefully washing their feet! Then, seemingly from nowhere, a very unkempt man started up the aisle, staggering a bit, perhaps under the weather. It was one of those stunning moments. Time stood still. Then the deacon walked down the aisle to help the man for-ward and assist him in taking off his shoes and socks. What is the this? Tender and loving care for the other; accepting our mutual vulnerabilities; choosing to open our hearts to all, even the one staggering into our life and upsetting its plans and perfections. Foot washing is not just a way of life but an attitude of heart, a kneeling before the other in reverence. Foot washing is embrac-ing a way of service after the manner of Jesus, simply, generously, not counting the cost. Do this: Embrace my attitudes and values as your own. Love those I love, and be my heart to them. Welcome the stranger, the one on the margins, the disenfranchised. Become vulnerable with one another. Kneel in reverence, especially before those whom soci-ety shuns. Nourish one another's bodies and spirits. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep, both here at home and half a world away— those in Norway who are paralyzed by a massacre they Foot washing is not just a way of life but an attitude of heart, a kneeling before the other in reverence Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 26 could never have imagined, those who are starving from the drought in Africa, those who are terrified of nuclear contamination in Japan, those who are caught up in trafficking around the globe or denied asylum here at home, those who have lost the ones they love and all they owned in fire, flood, tornado, or earthquake. Make a habit of roaming the globe in prayer so that you do not remain distant from the joys and pain of the world. Send those waves of grace once again across continents and cultures to bathe our world in the love and mercy of Eucharist. Do this in memory of me. Conclusion Week Three invites us to experience the Last Supper, to place ourselves there in the upper room, to look around at the faces, to listen to the words, to pon-der them in our hearts as we watch the immense tender-ness of the Lord with those he loved even to the end, whose hearts he was tutoring even on the night before he died. And we have stayed with him, watched and prayed with him, and accompanied him as he gave up his life. Then we have simply dwelt in silence. That same intimacy and presence to one another marks Week Four, a time of tenderness and affection with the risen Jesus who shares his love and his joy with us but does not let us cling to him. He sends us as apostles, empowered by his Spirit, to continue his sav-ing presence, to be his heart on earth. And day by day, week by week, the Eucharist con-tinues to draw us into these mysteries. The heart of the Eucharist is Jesus Christ. The heart of it is the cel-ebration of Jesus' life, death, and rising every time we gather—and the merging of our daily living and dying with his and with one another—for the life of the world. 71.1 2012 27 The heart of it is joining ourselves to Christ, the perfect sacrifice, to the praise and glory of God. The heart of it is begging that the Spirit will transform each one of us just as really as the bread and wine so that we become more and more Christ's Body in truth, not just in name. The heart of it is learning over and over again to say "Amen" to all of these realities and—at least some-times— actually meaning it. Meaning "Amen," meaning yes I will try to live, in deed, in the coming days, what we have just enacted in word and ritual action. I conclude with a favorite reflection of mine on the word "Amen." Be careful of simple words said often. "Amen" makes demands like an unrelenting schoolmaster: fierce attention to all that is said; no apathy, no preoccupation, no prejudice permitted. "Amen": We are present. We are open. We hearken. We understand. Here we are; we are listening to your word. "Amen" makes demands like a signature on a dotted line: sober bond to all that goes before; no hesitation, no half-heartedness, no mental reservation allowed. "Amen": We support. We approve. We are of one mind. We promise. May this come to pass. So be it. Be careful when you say "Amen."10 Notes 1 Cf. Sunday Celebration of the Word and Hours (Ottawa: Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, 1995). This book contains the Sunday collects prepared by the International Committee on English in the Liturgy for the Missal of 1998, since withdrawn. Review for Religious Hughes • Were Not Our Hearts Burning within Us? 28 2 David L. Fleming sj, "The Ignatian Spiritual Exercises: Understanding a Dynamic," in Notes on the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola (St. Louis: Review for Religious, 1981) 11. 3 General Instruction of the Roman Missal, 2003, §29, paraphrase. 4 GIRM, § 65. 5 GIRM, § 9. 6 GIRM, § 79. 7 David L. Fleming sj, The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius. A Literal Translation and a Contemporary Reading. (St. Louis: The Institute of Jesuit Sources, 1978) 3. 8 Gregory Dix, The Shape of the Liturgy (London: Dacre Press, 1945) 744-5, passim. 9 Ibid. paraphrase. 10 Barbara Schmich Searle, "Ritual Dialogue," Assembly 7:3, February, 1981. Obedience You have had my yes for years– and I have had yours since the sun, the seashells, and the storms at sea. But now, ah . . . you and I are more than yes. As time moves with, within, and around, this yes of ours takes on wings, takes on colors I never imagined, challenges that strengthen and soften me, glory that stills me, stirs me, extends and opens me. It becomes a murmur of love that we share. Love that frees me and compels me to choose you again and yet again . . . that I might respond as I wish to respond . . . openly, knowingly, even a little mysteriously . . . as the bush in the desert responded to flame. Kimberly M. King rscj 71.1 2012 ronald mercier 29 Without the Drama: The Transition from Third to Fourth Week of the Spiritual Exercises S travinsky's "Rite of Spring" caused a furor when it was first performed in 1913, but the more I listen to it, the more I think it expresses something important, and not only from a musical point of view. At the tail end of the piece, the "Sacrifice," Stravinsky tries to cap-ture the human spirit in its "pagan"—pure—form. You might want to find a recording of it and play it before you read further. Cacophony—there's no other way to describe it! Bad sound. It assaults the senses. It builds to a crescendo and with the violence of spirit that leads to the sacrifice of a human, a woman who dances herself to death for the Ronald Mercier sj is associate professor of theology at Saint Louis University and rector of the community where Jesuit scholastics pursue the study of philosophy and theology. This article was originally given as a keynote presentation at Ignatian Spirituality Conference V on July 22, 2011, in St. Louis, Missouri. Comments can be addressed to him at Bellarmine House of Studies; 3737 Westminster Place; St. Louis, Missouri 63108. Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 30 sake of the community. It is violence that can kill and wound and send to hell, to use Ignatius's words from the Incarnation meditation. In the ballet that goes with the music, there is a frenetic dance that is almost a form of madness. No wonder people were so challenged by the music; this is not about some nice ethereal enjoyment, but is a revelation of what can shape the human heart and actions. This revelation opens to our fears but not to our hopes. Curiously, the music ends with a bang, a loud discor-dant chord that leaves us waiting for something more. We would like some kind of resolution at this point, but we are left with utter silence after that dramatic end. We wait, but the music just ends. Or does it? For me, this piece leads to a reflection on the transition from the Third to the Fourth Week in the Ignatian Exercises, a movement out of a murderous drama into a disorienting grand silence within which the Fourth Week dawns. I would like to invite you to sit with Ignatius in what we would name "Holy Saturday," a place he sketches as the space for contemplation within which we experience Resurrection. My thesis is simple: Without the grand silence of Holy Saturday, the "seventh day" for Ignatius, we do not experience the joy and freedom of the Fourth Week. Waiting in the transition—a transition into, not out of, emptiness—allows for creation of the space into which the Risen Lord comes, if we let the quiet ripen. The music of Stravinsky captures the movement of the Third Week, a drama of human making. We walk with Jesus as he experiences being sacrificed for "the good of the people." Curiously, Ignatius invites us to experience the Passion, but he does not describe the gore that would have been standard fare in the spiritual-ity of his time. No doubt he assumed that people knew 71.1 2012 31 the specifics of the passion, crucifixion, and death from the religious imagination of his time. I wonder, though, whether that is all. It strikes me that we are invited into two spaces: the fullness of the world upon which the Trinity gazes in the Incarnation mediation, but also the reality of the Trinity's desire effected through what happens in these moments. In this transition, we fulfill the movement of the Incarnation meditation. Ignatius certainly invites us to "consider what Christ our Lord suffers in His human nature . . . [and] to strive to grieve, be sad, and weep" (SpEx §195). We "must be with the Lord in his suffering, [and] follow him unto his death," lest we be "simply spectators at a Passion event which may be very touching, but which in no way dis-turbs the egotism of our lives,"1 as Gilles Cusson so nicely puts it. We experience with Jesus what human egotism can do, the dramatic clash that seeks sacrifice to maintain some order. Ignatius's contemplation of the Passion has little to do with Mel Gibson's hero worship; we con-template one who embraces utter powerlessness, not "muscular humanity." Yet, Cusson also says that we need to attend to Ignatius's Fifth Point, "how the divinity hides itself; . . . it could destroy . . . but does not do so" (SpEx §196). What is God about in Christ? What goes beyond the "work of our hands," the murderous sacrifice, and actu-ally effects the will of the Trinity? Is God violent? Is We contemplate one who embraces utter powerlessness, not "muscular humanity." Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 32 this the "divinity [who] hides"? Or is the violent god our god? What occurs when our dramatic violence ends? For me, personally and as a director, this question is never academic. The temptation to remain specta-tors or to wonder at the horrors of the Passion—and so to remain distant from it and from the Resurrection— always presents itself as a path of light, as "really feeling bad" for Jesus, and perhaps knowing real (even mur-derous) anger toward those who create perverse tor-tures for him. The experi-ence of the Fourth Week then somehow appears too remote, not surprisingly, and not only because by that time we know the exhaustion of having given ourselves so radically to prayer. But if we remain spectators of the Passion, what also becomes remote is the real joy of the Fourth Week, a joy so different from the transient happiness that we may whip up but never suffices for the long-term journey. And the Fourth Week is really for the long haul, not transient at all. What alternative remains? Consider for a moment where Ignatius leads us. As he did in the contemplation on the Incarnation, he places us with the work of the Trinity and with Mary. This gives us our transition point and deserves some pause. Notice how he frames our prayer at the end of the week, the time of transition: One should consider as frequently as possible . . . that the most Sacred Body of Christ our Lord remained If we remain spectators of the Passion, what also becomes remote is the real joy of the Fourth Week. 71.1 2012 33 separated from the soul, and the place and manner of his burial. Let [the exercitant] consider, likewise, the desolation of our Lady, her great sorrow and weariness, and also that of the disciples (SpEx §208, Seventh Day). Two dimensions frame the time after the death of Jesus on the cross, two movements that invite us into a depth within which resurrection happens: the experi-ence of death in Jesus and its impact on those (like us) who love him. Resurrection, Cusson rightly suggests, never becomes a topic for consideration, but encounters us in and through the one whom we love and who has conquered death, a "confirmation from above surpass-ing all human hope."2 Let us stay, though, for a moment with the two aspects Ignatius gives us not so much as a conclusion to the Third Week as the door through which the Third Week becomes, or opens to, the Fourth Week. We have in the Christian tradition a powerful sense that the Paschal Mystery—the death, coming to the dead, and Resurrection of the Lord—never constitutes the past, something complete and over, but, rather, remains the context of our lives, the place of our ministries, the space within which joy dawns for us and for all who know the Risen Lord. Two things, then, shape this contemplation, which really becomes the shape of "the seventh day," a con-templation of the Passion as a whole. First, Ignatius begs us to consider the fullness of the death of Jesus because, without an experience of that fullness, we really cannot complete the journey of the Third Week (and of the Incarnation) or comprehend the fullness of the ways in which Jesus' ministry touches and shapes our lives and our world. We need to ponder, prayerfully, what it Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 34 means for Jesus to "remain separated from his soul," to know death, not just to "be killed." Let me suggest that this consideration never rep-resents some thought exercise or parlor game. In our culture we often trivialize death and, in fact, avoid the topic completely or paper it over with euphemisms. We do not say that people die, but that they "pass away." We make the reality so antiseptic, so unreal, that we actually generate a fear of death that drives us even to try to con-trol it, like some unruly passion. Humans have always feared death, as the social critic Ernst Becker makes clear. In our modern North American culture, though, we have created a kind of nightmare; we rarely encoun-ter the reality of someone's dying. Even worse, people have to die not freely as Jesus did, but alone, caught up in our medicalized model. Alternatively, we can make death into a mere video game: how many can we kill? By contrast, Ignatius invites us to a thoroughgoing realism. In Jesus' death, we contemplate the fullness of his human death, freely embraced for us, the fullness of the trajectory of the Incarnation. We are invited to consider especially his embrace of abandonment. Hans Urs von Balthasar, the great Swiss theologian and pro-foundly Ignatian thinker, asks us to ponder just what this means, as a path toward hope: The Redeemer showed himself therefore as the only one who, going beyond the general experience of death, was able to measure the depths of that abyss.3 Think about that with me for just a moment. For Balthasar (and here he places himself in the whole strand of Christian mystics) we desire to shield our-selves from death. We may have "the general experience of death," but we seek to hold it at bay, often at great cost. No one wants to die, of course, and from time 71.1 2012 35 immemorial we have created lovely myths of "afterlife" as ways of avoiding the fullness of what we would expe-rience in death, so that we do not really die. Instead, Ignatius invites us, in the wake of the cry by which Jesus freely gives up his spirit and accepts death, to consider what it would mean for someone freely and fully to enter into the realm of Hades, of Sheol, in which, as the psalmist says, "no one can praise You." In Jesus, God goes fully to claim the reality of human death and dying as God's very own. Balthasar uses the image of the abyss—a wonderful image—for this. We need to ponder, not morosely but in faith, the full tra-jectory of the Third Week. Ignatius places us there and asks that during the Seventh Day—however long it might be—we continually call that reality to mind and keep it before us. He invites us there in place of repetitions or Applications of the Senses, because in pon-dering the fullness of the death of Jesus, in letting it "ripen to fullness," as it were, we begin to grasp the fullness of what it means that he dies for our sake, that he goes where we would not go. If, as David Fleming, John Futrell, John English and many others suggest, the Last Supper sets the tone for the Third Week, here we know what it means to "be broken and poured out," even to the fullness of death itself. We have been praying for the grace of freedom throughout the Exercises, and in a sense here we encounter freedom in its fullness. Balthasar notes what freedom—in its purest form, free from all stain of sin—would mean: "And precisely in that did his mortal anguish and God-abandonment differ radically from the habitual anxiety of the sinner." 4 Jesus freely—and with-out defense—walks the way ahead of us, embraces our path. Jesus claims the fullness of death as a space within Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 36 which to meet us—thus, the implication of the seventh-day exercise. We can—and do—often hurry by the real-ity, or simply marvel at the wreck of a corpse in the Pietà. Ignatius, according to Balthasar, invites us to let death be full, that we might know freedom with Christ, freedom for our mission ultimately, freedom to love "even to death itself." No masochism or delectatio morosa marks this moment, but only a profound invitation to explore what we fear with the One who has gone the way before us. For Ignatius, that remains key. If Resurrection cannot grasp the fullness of what death means, if it can-not meet us in the anxiety that would hold us bound and create the kind of craziness that marks our death-obsessed culture, it remains but a "nice idea," easily dis-pensed with, perhaps. For Balthasar, Jesus delves into death as abandonment, freely, without losing hope, but relying completely on the God who alone can overcome death. Imagine "separation of soul and body" in its totality, without the experience of Resurrection that often shields us. Jesus embraces that. This descent remains but part of the story for Ignatius, since he invites us to place ourselves with Mary and the disciples in their desolation—an impor-tant context. The imagery of that placement reveals a deliberate quality in two ways: it prepares us to encoun-ter the Risen Lord and accept our mission. In one sense, of course, we explore the same space as previously, explore what it means for Jesus to have died—but now from the perspectives of those left behind. Again, Ignatius invites us to contemplate with Mary—and to some extent with Mary Magdalene—to share space and time with women who also embrace the "empty space" without defense, freely. The sinlessness of Mary parallels Jesus' own condition, and invites us 71.1 2012 37 to imagine how she, whose heart knew only openness, would experience the "separation" of soul from body. In her once again, Ignatius asks us to confront death as death, in its fullness in Jesus, in one whom we pas-sionately love. While I will focus on the encounter with Mary, the mother of Jesus, as a basic form of the Resurrection con-templations, I do not mean to suggest that one must force people to engage that path. Eventually the pattern of the Exercises does lead us there, but as John English suggests in Spiritual Freedom,5 a directee may find it difficult to enter into the purity of Mary's openness to encounter the Risen Lord; a person may find more fruitful prayer with the grief of Mary Magdalene, or the guilt of Simon Peter, or others. Still, the fullness of that openness to the Risen Lord brings us back to the full "yes" of Mary, mother of Jesus, as a paradigm of freedom. We have probably all known a parent who has lost a beloved child. As I write this I cannot help but think of the parents of a young Chinese student who failed at university and chose suicide in the face of despair. I cannot begin to imagine the grief of soul such a moment would entail for those parents; nor can I imagine the added burden of feeling guilt for having laid on a child expectations that he could not fulfill. That empty space of a dead child shocks us; "it should not happen," we say quite rightly. Parents should die before their children do. The empty space becomes almost too much to take in, though with Michelangelo's Pietà we catch a glimpse of how a face might appear when gazing on that emptiness. Yet, for the director at this point in the Exercises, especially in the face of what happens in the transition, an important distinction remains. Monty Williams, in a work in progress that he shared with me, advises that we Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 38 note two different paths as one encounters fear, notably the fear of death. There are two ways of being present to our fears. We could look at them and wonder how we can be so stupid, and then make the plans . . . to ensure those mistakes never happen again. . . . The other way . . . is to experience the amazement. . . . The more we ponder . . . it, the more we are filled with a sense of wonder—which gives no answer. That wonder, that sense of amazement, is our first awareness of the presence of God in the space we have created by looking at our fears. As Williams frames it, two choices remain. We can panic and move into flight or analysis or simply an excess of emotions to make us feel better. Or we can be attentive, in the face of such fears, to an empty space without answers—a much harder place to be. When Ignatius invites us to contemplate, to recall Mary, all of those spaces we have known in the Second Week come to mind. Mary remains for us always the one who attends, who does not withdraw, even in the face of the horror of the slaughter of the innocents, but who pon-ders. The path of our entry into the Seventh Day parallels Mary's path, and a director looks at whether the exerci-tant gets caught up in his or her own pain or can ponder the empty space with Mary—that dreadful emptiness the church hints at in stripped altars and empty tabernacles after the Good Friday service. With Mary, we hear the invitation in freedom to know our beloved Jesus as dead. A terrible space, but not a maudlin one! We hear the call to compassion, to attentiveness, to let an empty space open. In essence, Michelangelo's Pietà invites us not to wild grieving but to face the reality of Mary holding her dead son. Attentiveness is a state of waiting, but for what? 71.1 2012 39 I can't help but remember Mary Oliver's powerful poem "The Uses of Sorrow," which captures so much of what I think Ignatius presents to us in constructing a place for prayer: (In my sleep I dreamed this poem) Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this, too, was a gift.6 The poem admirably catches the difference between panic/analysis and attentiveness as ways of responding to the human—and here divine—reality of death. For us the path takes time; Ignatius invites us on the seventh day to recall this to mind again and again, but the full process may well be the journey of our lives and our dying. However, contemplating the loss of Jesus is but one dimension. With Mary—and with the disciples—we are invited to ponder the world in which, as Cleopas said, "we had hoped" but which is now a space of desolation. We face the fullness of what Ignatius means when he invites the retreatant to see and consider the Three Divine Persons. . . . They look down upon the whole surface of the earth and behold all nations in great blindness, going down to death and descending into hell (SpEx §106). The reality of human violence is seen in its full-ness in this moment, especially when, with the disciples, we see that violence is also part of their lives—in their abandoning their Master. With Mary and them, the full brutality of violence in the name of God, yet murder-ous of God, comes home to us in all its savagery. No doubt they had seen or heard of crucifixion before. This Roman "tool" helped maintain fear in the populace by destroying its memory of the one killed, lest anyone else Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 40 attempt to do what the crucified one had done. We can all rationalize human cruelty to suit our purposes. Here, though, their Master, Lord, Mentor, the one who healed, raised from the dead, preached Good News—the one they loved—becomes the victim of such cruelty. With him, the hope he had proclaimed also becomes a victim, exactly as the Romans would have desired. Hope is too dangerous a drug to a people fac-ing death. Is the reality of what Cleopas proclaimed— that "we had hoped"—also dead? With Mary and the disciples, we gaze on the empty space in the wake of the cross, and we know the dying of our hopes, of the ways in which all of our plans and expectations go to the cross with Jesus. Our history, our world, hangs in that balance. As director, how often have I sat with people who, in the wake of Jesus' death and burial, have to encounter again their own history of violence—received, experienced in others, commit-ted! The call to attentiveness in this space where our wounded history is made so evident places the past and the future in the balance. If in the first movement with Jesus and Mary we know the fear before death, in this second movement perhaps we face the fear of living in a world mediated by violence, a violence that we can usually hold at bay or ignore by switching the televi-sion channel. Yet, in this transition place, we face the brokenness and "poured-out" quality of our world, and we hear the call not to stronger forms of violence or retribution but to attend in that quiet space and know the fullness of a hope that might have died too. So many people live in this space. It is not theoretical. So, for me, the power of Stravinsky's piece, build-ing to that awful crescendo, that cacophony of death, followed by nothing, silence, lies in wanting some reso- 71.1 2012 41 lution other than the sacrifice. He captures well what those first disciples must have been going through on their "seventh day," after the terrible dramatics of human violence, cruelty, power; now Mary and the others know an empty silence made all the more desolate by what had come before. Building better plans, creating monu-ments, assigning guilt or blame—all of these would have tempered the grief. Instead, we hear the invitation to silence, to attentiveness. It may be that real forgiveness, hope, and resurrection can occur only in such silence. Ignatius places us before those realities that so easily move us away from attentiveness—fear of death and fear of violence or rejection—as a space within which some-thing very different—freedom—can arise. This experience could well represent a kind of "downer" for us, but need it be so? The sense of the deaths we experience—whether the physical death that Jesus freely embraces or the death of our illusions about the world and our patterns of dealing with it—create, as it were, a wasteland, an emptiness before which we stand and pray with Mary and the disciples. Its all-encompassing nature seeks to enlarge our freedom by placing before us our fears. Facing the wasteland yields fruit not in darkness or desolation (though we do indeed pass through these) but, as Antonio Valentino noted in a Directory written in the first generation after the death of Ignatius, aims at perfection in prayer and work, holding always God before one's eyes with gentleness and consistency, and remembering God whenever we think, speak or act.7 If we are moving toward the Contemplatio here as a mode of engaging the world, then this transition that "clears the ground" can yield an abundant harvest. We are left waiting for God's action—not ours. Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 42 I do not use the imagery of "clearing ground" acci-dentally. I find myself touched by the way in which one deals with one sweep of contemplation, which clears, seeds, and bears fruit in ever deeper ways. Think through with me the extraordinary introduction to the Fourth Week that piggybacks on what we have seen. As Cusson mentions, when Ignatius presents the medita-tion on the first resurrection appearance (SpEx §299), he offers a first point, nothing else; the simplicity of the perspective shines through: "He appeared to the Virgin Mary." Ignatius sees no need for second or third points, as are given in all the other meditations. It is a unique tableau.8 Ignatius does complete the sweep from where we have been: His soul, likewise united with the divinity, descended into hell. There he sets free the souls of the just, then comes to the sepulcher, and rising appears in body and soul to His Blessed Mother (SpEx §219). We have before us the same matter as in the con-templations on "the seventh day" of the Third Week; the setting does not change. What happens arises from within where we find ourselves as we attend to the empty space at the end of the Third Week. Our entry into the Fourth Week comes not because we will our-selves to joy. Rather, in the space that death and vio-lence have laid waste, Resurrection dawns like light and, with it, love, joy, and hope as the fruit. We do not change spaces for Resurrection, for the Fourth Week; rather, we extend the Third until it bears fruit. As director, I cannot overemphasize how hard it is to keep people focused at this point; exhaustion has set in. The Fourth Week regularly gets short shrift, as does Resurrection in so much of Christian life; yet, as I pray with the transition from Third to Fourth Week, I 71.1 2012 43 realize how crucial that transition point is to our ability to be in and to serve a broken but risen world. Ignatius leads us to the "hell" which Jesus has entered freely and fully, with all those who have gone before—and with us eventually—and then moves to Mary, in her home and oratory, exactly the order that repeats the end of the Third Week. I would like to move in three points—Jesus' apparition to Mary, Jesus' rising "from the dead," and the gift of joy to a world that killed and can kill still. They are related, but quite distinct too. Think of how redolent Jesus' apparition is for Mary. Ignatius does not describe it much, except for a clear allusion. He asks us to "see the arrangement of . . . the place or house of our Lady. I will note its different parts, and also her room, her ora-tory, etc." (SpEx §220). In §103 we were asked "especially to see the house and room of our Lady." The parallelism is almost exact, and, of course, David Fleming in Like the Lightning alludes to the Annunciation contemplation.9 This is not pious drivel, as some are tempted to say; this really is a new Annunciation, but one that asks Mary—and us—to go on mission for the Trinity with the Risen Lord. After all the Sturm und Drang of the Third Week— the drama of our human violence and blood-lust, even the drama of the Last Supper that begins the Third This really is a new Annunciation, but one that asks Mary—and us— to go on mission for the Trinity with the Risen Lord. Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 44 Week—this dawn of the Fourth Week, of a new world, is so undra-matic. Mel Gibson would have a difficult time with it. We would be tempted to make it dramatic, and certainly the Miraflores altar-piece does so, with Jesus showing his wounds and with Mary por-trayed as quite the medieval lady. Ignatius's description, though, is so different. Certainly, as he notes in the fourth point, the "divinity here manifests itself so miraculously," though in the fifth point the man-ifestation is as the consoler, the one who brings joy in the glory of the Resurrection. What are we to make of the apparition as "con-soler"? By the way, Ignatius gives only this contemplation in the Fourth Week, though we find a number of other texts arranged from §299-312 (in the section on the Mysteries of Christ's Life), with an ever wider circle of people let in on the Resurrection. In the Fourth Week itself, one contemplation alone pre-cedes the Contemplatio, again with Mary. If we take a step back, Mary represents the free per-son who has tasted the fullness of the passage of Jesus, both into death and at the hands of a broken, murderous world. If the darkness that John evokes in the Gospel stands as a hallmark of the Passion, Mary knows that darkness fully. As we wait with her, we hear the invita-tion to know that darkness, to let our own hopes and dreams die, to recognize the fullness of what death, as God-forsakenness, means. Mary roots us in a barren 71.1 2012 45 landscape without familiar landmarks. Stark—not dra-matic. Quiet. As long as we cling to our own artifacts, the land remains cluttered, and we are unable to receive. In essence, Mary descends into a kind of hell as well, the fullness of the First Week's hell, which is not of her doing, but which is the fruit of the world we have created. The more I ponder and pray with these texts, however, the more they strike me as a new "Incarnation," but with a different order and intent. In the Incarnation medita-tion, we move from the work of God, who ponders the broken, murderous world and chooses to enter it, invit-ing Mary—and us—to share in the work of the Trinity here now. With Mary we have been placed in a God-less world, the fullness of hell. We gaze, we ponder with her, in the freedom of those who have elected to follow Jesus. Mary—and we—know what God's heart would have felt in the acute desire to set people free. We now move from the order of "this world" to an encounter with the Trinity as we know the fullness of the desire of the Trinity in the Incarnation prayer, now effected by the Risen Lord. Again, I want to stress the point: Ignatius places us with Mary as the archetype of the person of the Exercises, the free person. While in later contempla-tions we are indeed shown the rest of the Gospel story, here he asks us to share in the fullness of what freedom The Apparition to Mary Reverses the order of the Incarnation meditation From the Trinity To a Broken World To revelation of the Trinity From a Broken World Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 46 means, freedom at the intersection of our engagement with a broken world, and we wonder at the dawning of a world shot through with Resurrection. The transition of this time represents not a movement from Third Week to Fourth Week, as if we could leave the former behind as just a bad memory; rather, the transition is the on-going space of discipleship. We, like Mary, remain in a broken world, but the transition into the Fourth Week recasts the meaning of the world in a dramatic way, so that we can accept the call to serve a world still broken. Contemplation constitutes the basic hallmark of this freedom; the encounter with the Risen Lord that Ignatius sketches out occurs as an offer of new life in the midst of the contemplation of the fullness of death and sinful violence. These two elements of death and life form a diptych, as it were, for our lives and our prayer. We encounter here not merely the Risen Lord but, with Mary, the pattern of what we shall know as we await that ultimate coming of Christ to the world, and we receive a mission to act upon hope. Into that space, the risen Lord comes, not just as resuscitated—"I'm back"—but as a living proclamation of a new world, God's plan for the ultimate healing and completion of the world God so loves. From the broken world, we encounter the divinity made flesh again for us, but now glorified and risen. If Christ performs "the office of the consoler," as Ignatius says, this consolation does not simply cause a "feeling good" or even a happi-ness, but a revelation of a new world and the empower-ing invitation to dwell in that new world and extend it through time and space. That power is "joy." Joy in this case is not an affect, or even a spiri-tual movement, for Ignatius. In fact, he distinguishes between the two realities: 71.1 2012 47 as soon as I awake [I will] place before my mind the contemplation I am to enter upon, and then . . . strive to feel joy and happiness at the great joy and happi-ness of Christ our Lord (SpEx §229). Happiness we know as an affective movement, a passing reality; we feel happy when we experience cer-tain realities. We can know happiness but still be alien to joy, since happiness comes and goes, depending on the experience we feel. Happiness has an object, and in this case Ignatius does want us to evoke within ourselves the experience of happiness; the encounter becomes the cause of our happiness. Joy, however, pertains to a very different reality. Joy—and this is Christ's joy, of course, a gift of the Holy Spirit—intends not a movement of the heart, a feel-ing, but a disposition, a way of being; it is the hallmark of those who have encountered the risen Lord in the midst of surrounding darkness. Joy makes possible the freedom to go on mission into the Fourth Week—our ordinary time. That light dawns in the Resurrection, not apart from but in the midst of the darkness which Mary—and we—have known. G.K. Chesterton's lament about "joyless Christians" captures something very important here: Christianity satisfies suddenly and perfectly man's [sic] ancestral instinct for being the right way up; satisfies it supremely in this; that by its creed joy becomes something gigantic and sadness something special and small. The vault above us is not deaf because the universe is an idiot; the silence is not the heartless silence of an endless and aimless world.10 The joy we experience in the presence of the Risen Lord does not suddenly wipe away the reality of the grief we know at the experience of the brokenness of Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 48 the world and its impact on the vulnerable; rather, such joy places it all in context, allows us to see the world as it is, in the context of God's proclamation of new life and hope in Christ. The way Ignatius ends the Exercises with Mary and this twofold contempla-tion seems to suggest that this joy becomes our "new normal," what God intended in creation and effects through the Incarnation, ministry, and Passover of the Word. We often emphasize the continuity/discontinuity of the Risen Jesus; he is like but different. But is it not really also the world which is continuous/discontinu-ous? In a great line from "Lion in Winter," Eleanor of Aquitaine says, "In a world where carpenters get resur-rected, everything is possible." Exactly—and such is our hope and the cause of our joy. As contemplatives moved to action, we in the Ignatian tradition live in the intersection of the two parts of the diptych, of Holy Saturday and Easter, but with joy as the hinge, something into which we grow. The encounter with the Risen Lord in the midst of a broken world becomes the reality of our lives and a point of conversion into this "new world." In that respect, we are unlike Mary but more like the others who encounter the Lord in a gradual way, but who nevertheless grow into a joyful engagement with the world. However, we can-not separate this encounter from the work which serves life and just peace; we grow in joy and hope only if we place ourselves at the service of justice, as it were, as the thirty-second General Congregation of the Society of Jesus suggested. Yet, we are no longer simply disciples, but apostles, those sent as the Word was sent into the world, but now into a world transformed. This "new normal," a joyful realm, disorients in many ways. Please excuse me as I take a bit of a detour 71.1 2012 49 into a Byzantine theme, that of the "Harrowing of Hell," an ancient icon in the East that depicts a scene sketched by a homily from the second century. I ask you to pon-der it with me for just a few moments. We have here one particu-lar rendition of the icon, but a powerful one with three signifi-cant movements. One of these captures the Contemplation for the Fourth Week as given by Ignatius, namely that the Risen Lord sets free the souls of the just held bound before Christ's Resurrection. For Balthasar and oth-ers, this moment of encounter with the Risen Lord has become the deciding moment for them, the one in which heaven—and the second death—actually open. In that sense, we have a key moment of election again, a confirmation to "fol-low" but now in a different way—to eternal life for them. Yet this Risen Lord calls us to proclaim eternal life and freedom in this world. Second, and this evokes the reality of La Storta, the risen Christ carries the cross, but as a tool through which to break open the gates of Sheol. This Christ on mission invites us to the imagery of the Third Week, but now as a call to freedom, not to death or destruction. The order of the world is profoundly inverted here, and violence gives way to freedom. No wonder the thirty- Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 50 second General Congregation could so freely embrace being "under the banner of the cross" as a mode of identification. This rising Christ changes all the imag-ery of violence, death, and hopelessness we would have taken for granted. One finds joy even in the cross—how odd—but, again, joy is not simply a moment of happi-ness but a consistent mode of being. Again, we cannot separate encounter with the Risen Lord from presence to those who know Holy Saturday and its pain or loss of hope. Last, though, for the East—and for Ignatius, I think—the implications of this little icon and of the work of Christ show free-dom in an even bolder way. A second-century homily proclaims, "I did not create you to be held captive," as does the Office of Readings every Holy Saturday. Do we ponder, though, the implications of that little line, the heart of the link between the Third and Fourth Weeks? The dynamic of the Third Week—from the human point of view—reveals the inevitability of betrayal, duplicity, shame, violence, grief, blood-lust. Not an appetizing menu, to be sure. Ignatius would ask us to contemplate the recreated world in which such patterns have lost their power forever, not just for a moment; we know their power, but as something that has passed away, both from the world and from our lives. If a counterpart to the contemplation on the Incarnation in the Second Week is the Two Standards meditation, perhaps this "diptych" does something Joy is not simply a moment of happiness but a consistent mode of being. 71.1 2012 51 similar. In the Two Standards meditation, Satan calls his demons and "goads them on to lay snares for people and bind them with chains" (SpEx §142). Christ bids, attracts, graces, to a very different world, of poverty, bearing insult and humiliation freely as a means of free-dom (SpEx §146). We have seen that first standard lived to its full-est in the Third Week; now we see Christ who in his revealed divinity, as the fullness of the revelation of the Trinity, continues to serve, to free, to attract, to bid, but now as having conquered all freely and lovingly. Do we not know here the prospect of a whole new world unbound or in the process of unbinding, a process to which Christ missions us? Does Christ not call us in this contemplation with Mary to gather companions in the work of dwelling in this contemplative yet active space? The full import of what has been "the normal" becomes ever clearer to us, even as we enter more fully into com-panionship with Mary in this contemplation. The chal-lenge to us, however, never degenerates into hopeless self-scrutinizing or, even worse, scrupulosity. We do not get forced back into contemplating our sins, as too often happens when people gaze upon the cross, or into the violent guilt or shame of the Third Week. Rather, aware of the Third Week and its full impact on the one whom we love and on the world Christ so loves, we hear the invitation to explore contemplatively a dawning world, one which opens, I think, to the Contemplatio and to our role in extending Christ's joy. James Alison, the British Catholic theologian, has written movingly on this, inviting us to consider how our cultures shape our imaginations through the pat-terns of interaction—rivalistic patterns—which for us constitute "the normal." In Christ, and I think in Mary Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 52 and the disciples, God gives us a dramatically differ-ent pattern of interaction, one that creates relationships touched by joy, not by violence or rivalry or fear. In the complementary contemplations we are given through-out the Fourth Week, we encounter many such persons, wounded in and by the Third Week, even agents of the violence of the Third Week, with whom and in whom we now encounter the pattern of joy and hope. These reflections lead me to ponder the meaning of the "Rules for Thinking with the Church" (SpEx §352-370). They are usually given as a form of Counter- Reformation ecclesiology, a guide on how to engage the debates of the mid-sixteenth century. The text contains all kinds of very context-specific allusions—echoes of debates on predestination, sacraments, authority, and the like that helped tear the church apart. We realize that the inability to attend to what the other was saying represented but one more kind of violence in an already violent age. Ignatius, of course, never had shied away from a fight. One has only to remember how ready he was to dispatch the Moor who had shown insufficient defer-ence to the Blessed Virgin, his Lady. He certainly would not be the first choice as a poster boy for pacifism. Yet, think with me for a moment about the Rules, written at a time when everyone wanted a good fight and looked, all too often, for occasions to pick a fight or score a point. Ignatius's presentation strikes me as curious in that regard, strangely pacific, to use Alison's invitation to a radically different imagination, a con-version of imagination, where our normal expectation is no longer violence or the violent god but rather of a world ordered to and by peaceful relationships. We find here none of the grand drama of the instructions to 71.1 2012 53 the Cardinal Legates to the various Diets and Councils. Instead, we find a man desperate to preserve the unity of the community, to avoid the kinds of clashes that mark his age. Perhaps when we look at the Rules for Thinking with the Church, the metaphor that I have been using— of having had the earth scorched around us and entering a new world—could be helpful. We tend to bring with us the imagery and imagination to which we have grown accustomed. We bring the patterns of guilt or shame or blame or grief or violence that we have learned only too well from the world we have known as normal. Yet, the totality of the presence of the Risen Christ to Mary— and to us—challenges any return to those spaces to which we have grown accustomed. Certainly, if Christ has "harrowed hell" and broken dominant patterns, we are in need of "a way," of his way. Might not the Rules for Thinking with the Church be Ignatius's way of inviting us to turn from the slavish obedience so alien to the freedom of the Fourth Week and to become attentive to the community of people elected in grace, graced by Risen Life, empowered by saints, who could sketch out for us and for our imagi-nation a path with and to Christ? We stand in need of a community of faith, the Church militant in the original Spanish text, which can model for us the new life revealed in and through the Risen Lord. While the Rules invite a kind of docility in seeking a way of peace and renewal of imagination found in the community of the faithful, they do not require checking one's mind at the door. At times we can, like Ignatius, grieve because of a church that shows the marks of the violence and domination of those who killed the Lord. Nevertheless we wait in the hope of encountering Christ in this com- Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 54 munity, in the Holy Saturday-Easter Sunday diptych, still confident that we will contemplatively learn a way forward, not in spite of but in the pain. In a similar way, Ignatius needed the community to foster conversion out of scruples and into Christ. Still, a real encounter as is experienced in the tran-sition opens a path to community. Rooted in a new experience of the world, it is a community of peace, joy, hope, creativity. This, of course, has none of the "grand drama" of the Third Week that would thrill Mel Gibson, but it has the quiet quality of a son meeting a grieving mother who has been wounded by violence but, in joy, is experiencing the possibility of new life, the opening of heart and imagination. Quiet, not dramatic in the ways we are used to, but nonetheless a powerful and creative stance. The difference between the drama at the end of the Third Week and the quiet dawn of the Fourth invites us to know in its fullness what the Two Standards means and what Christ offers: not a crusade of our own, but an allowing of new possibilities to dawn in our age. We have seen such dawns, and their ecclesial power touches deeply. I think of Jean Vanier's L'Arche com-munity embracing the handicapped, those rejected by the world. There is the hospice movement, which rose from Dame Cecily Saunders's refusal to allow cancer patients for whom medical drama could do no more to simply go away and die. Those who serve refugees and bring a moment of tenderness and hope to fragile lives similarly stand at the confluence of this Paschal diptych. Easier, I suppose, would be to follow the temptation to take up arms and fight back or condemn, but we are invited to a very different path, not of moralism but of an embrace like that of Mary by her Son. 71.1 2012 55 We began this talk with Stravinsky's musical image of primal humanity and its lust for sacrifice, a lust that seeks "salvation for the people" in a woman condemned to die by dancing madly. The music crashes to a dra-matic conclusion followed by silence. I would like to end with a different dance, one described by Sydney Carter's words applied to the Shaker hymn "Simple Gifts," here the "Lord of the Dance." Perhaps this could evoke something of the transition to a dance that is joyous, inclusive, expansive. May this be our prayer and our path. I danced on a Friday when the sky turned black— It's hard to dance with the devil on your back. They buried my body, and they thought I'd gone, But I am the Dance, and I still go on. Dance, then, wherever you may be, I am the Lord of the Dance, said he, And I'll lead you all, wherever you may be, And I'll lead you all in the Dance, said he. They cut me down and I leapt up high; I am the life that'll never, never die; I'll live in you if you'll live in me— I am the Lord of the Dance, said he. Dance, then, wherever you may be, I am the Lord of the Dance, said he, And I'll lead you all, wherever you may be, And I'll lead you all in the Dance, said he. Notes 1 Gilles Cusson, Biblical Theology and the Spiritual Exercises (St. Louis: Institute of Jesuit Sources, 1988), p. 299. 2 Cusson, p. 303. Review for Religious Mercier • Without the Drama 56 3 Hans Urs von Balthasar, Mysterium Paschale: The Mystery of Easter (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans, 1990), p. 168. 4 von Balthasar, p 169. 5 John English, Spiritual Freedom: From an Expertience of the Ignatian Exercises to the Art of Spiritual Direction (Guelph: Loyola House, 1973), p. 247. 6 Mary Oliver, Thirst (Boston: Beacon Press), p. 52. 7 Martin E. Palmer, S.J., On Giving the Spiritual Exercises: The Early Jesuit Manuscript Directories and the Official Directory of 1599 (St. Louis: Institute of Jesuit Sources, 1996), p. 79. 8 Cusson, p. 303. 9 David L. Fleming, Like the Lightning: The Dynamics of the Ignatian Exercises (St Louis, Institute of Jesuit Sources, 2004), p. 77. 10 Gilbert K. Chesterton, Othodoxy (Garden City, NY: Image Books, 1959), p. 160. Questions for Reflection 1. Where have I embraced the emptiness of death and how has it enabled me to experience the joy of the Risen Lord? 2. Do you have any favorite music, artwork, or poetry that helps you enter into the sacred silence discussed in this article—or that helps you understand other moments in the Spiritual Exercises or in the Gospels? 71.1 2012 57 Dolor 5: At the Foot of the Cross Giving birth is contracting to sleep with death. It is an agreement to pass on everything that has been fed, fondled, fiercely treasured, looked forward to as one looks for the first hibiscus every spring. It is a signature and seal in pledge that one will leave someone something. It holds the possibility—tormenting as tarantula's tricks— that the loved child may pass first, cursedly, of illness, mishap, quick step in the wrong place, by fate or by murderous hatred heaped upon the great. The blood and wash of afterbirth foretell that every holding close lets loose. Small fingers, small toes enlarge as mothering bellies pull back to size and shape. Flowerings green up. They will, they must, brown down with wintering. And every footfall tells an end to every earthly good, each breath started with a slap, each name begun so well that slips into what's next. Pamela Smith sscm Review for Religious 58 peter j. schineller Finding or Seeking God in All Things: A Few Cautionary Notes "T o find God in all things" is a commonplace of Ignatian spirituality. Books and essays on Ignatius and Jesuit spirituality have highlighted the phrase as a hallmark of that spirituality. However, in an essay entitled "The Ignatian Charism and Contemporary Theology," the late Cardinal Avery Dulles wrote that "to the best of my knowledge the expression 'finding God in all things,' does not appear verbatim in the writ-ings of St. Ignatius."1 He admits that we do find "similar expressions" in the writings of Ignatius, and adds that "it seems evident that God can be found in all things." Dulles's observation makes me wonder and leads me to the unanswerable question of whether Ignatius deliberately avoided the phrase "find God in all things." Ignatius does write in many places that we should seek Peter J. Schineller sj is the archivist for the New York Province of the Society of Jesus. He resides at America House, 106 West 56th Street, New York, NY 10019. 59 71.1 2012 and serve God in all things; but, as we will see, except for one place, he does not use the phrase "find God in all things." Jerome Nadal, one of the early companions of Ignatius, clearly believed that Ignatius had the gift or charism to "feel the presence of God" and that this experience should likewise characterize Ignatius's fol-lowers. He writes: "I shall not fail to recall that grace which he had in all circumstances, while at work or in conversation, of feeling the presence of God and of tasting spiritual things, of being contemplative even in the midst of action: he used to interpret this as seeking God in all things."2 Note well that Nadal says Ignatius interpreted this experience as seeking God in all things. So too, Pedro Ribadeneira, also an early compan-ion of Ignatius, reports that "we frequently saw him taking the occasion of little things to lift his mind to God, who even in the smallest things is great. From seeing a plant, foliage, a leaf, a flower, any fruit, from the consideration of a little worm or any other animal, he raised himself above the heavens and penetrated the deepest thought."3 And, in the Autobiography of Ignatius, Luis da Camara, who wrote down the words of Ignatius, states: "At whatever time or hour he wanted to find God, he found Him."4 (To be precise, da Camara says that Ignatius could find God at all times, not that he found God in all things.) So we ask: might there be some wis-dom or insight—or caution—in the fact that Ignatius only once uses the phrase "find God in all things"? The Sole Text and Its Context In the long letter to Antonio Brandão subtitled "Instructions given by our father Ignatius, or at his Review for Religious Schineller • Finding or Seeking God in All Things 60 direction . . ." we read the advice given to scholastics: "the scholastics cannot engage in long meditations . . . they can practice seeking the presence of our Lord in all things; in their dealings with other people, their walking, seeing, tasting, hearing, understanding, and all our activities. For his Divine Majesty truly is in every-thing by his presence, power, and essence. This kind of meditation—finding God our Lord in everything—is easier than lifting ourselves up and laboriously making ourselves present to more abstracted divine realities."5 Again, a caution. This letter was not written by Ignatius, but at his direction by Juan de Polanco. Further, before he says "finding God in everything," he says the scholastics must "practice seeking the presence of our Lord in all things." Finding that presence is not auto-matic— and, perhaps, not so easy as we might think! In the Constitutions of the Society of Jesus, we read that Jesuit novices "should often be exhorted to seek God our Lord in all things . . . loving him in all crea-tures and all creatures in him" [§288]. Again, we see emphasis on the element of search. So too, in the Contemplation to Attain Love in the Spiritual Exercises, we read: "Here it will be to ask for an intimate knowledge of the many blessings received, that filled with gratitude for all, I may in all things love and serve the Divine Majesty" [SpEx §233]. Ignatius wants the retreatants to love and serve God in all; he does not write that they are to find God in all things. I wonder if the rea-son might be that Ignatius wishes to safeguard the Divine Majesty, the ever-greater God. Might it be that he fears that we will believe that we can capture or contain or iden-tify the ever-greater God in any one thing or in all things? In addition to frequently encouraging that we seek or serve God in all things, Ignatius does say that we 71.1 2012 61 can and must "find the will of God." Thus the Spiritual Exercises are a way of preparing the soul to rid itself of attachments and "of seeking and finding the will of God in the disposition of our life for the salvation of our soul" [SpEx §1]. And Ignatius most frequently ends his letters praying for the grace to "know God's most holy will and per-fectly fulfill it." Or, "may God in his goodness give us his abundant grace to know his most holy will and entirely to fulfill it." Even as Ignatius urges us to seek and find the will of God, he emphasizes the method and the search. He never claims that seeking and finding the will of God is easily done. It demands prayer, reflection, seeking, mortification, time, and effort. Today's Background, Context, Horizon In an obvious oversimplification, we might say that in our age we find two extreme tendencies: 1) the skepti-cal, secular way of underbelief and 2) the less critical way of overbelief. These correspond to two rival "isms" in our globalized world, spoken of by Fr. Adolfo Nicolás, supe-rior general of the Society of Jesus, in a major address on higher education: 1) an aggressive secularism and 2) a resurgence of various fundamentalisms.6 We might look at the cautious and critical way of Ignatius in light of these two tendencies. 1. The skeptical and secular viewpoint. Many today, including Christians, experience the distance, absence, Seeking and finding the will of God demands prayer, reflection, seeking, mortification, time, and effort. Review for Religious Schineller • Finding or Seeking God in All Things 62 or otherness of God. Rather than finding God in all things, they do not find God anywhere in their experi-ence. Or God is edged out by many possibilities, alter-natives, and options, by many "things" that are not God. They live in a world come of age that no longer "needs" God and are skeptical of those who find, describe, and talk of God so easily. They are critical of claims or interpretations that seem to make God into one thing among many. This objectification of God, they find, entails a loss of God's otherness and transcendence. 2. The less critical fundamentalism or overbelief. At the other extreme are the many believers who see God at work in every event. God is close and at hand. Some Christians seem to think they have a lock on God, clearly grasping and knowing the divine intentions and will for the world and for humankind. Statements to that effect indicate a temptation to reduce God to our size, to capture and lay hold of God. In a general way, two of today's thinkers reflect these two tendencies. The first is the critic George Steiner. In My Unwritten Books, a sequel to his book Real Presences, which points us to various signs of the transcendent, Steiner writes that he feels strongly the absence of God—a powerful experience of emptiness. "Awesome is the God who is not. . . . I strive to be with His sovereign absence."7 Steiner finds himself groping for and seeking God more than believing in and finding God. He adds that to be great, literature need not believe in or affirm God, but at least must grapple with the question of God, the search and debate over the reality of God. From an explicit Christian perspective, we might also listen to James Gustafson. In an article entitled "The Denial of God as God,"8 Gustafson writes that "the history of our religion is the history of human 71.1 2012 63 attempts to manage and manipulate the awesome power of God, who is finally beyond our capacities to know fully, to capture in human thoughts and deeds. . . . It is the history of efforts to control the times and places of his presence." Gustafson asserts that we overlook this awesome reality of God: "how we want a God we can manage, a God who comes when we beckon him, a God who permits us to say that he is here, but not there; a God who meets our needs on our terms; a God who supports our moral causes and destroys the forces we think are evil; a household God and a kitchen God." Then, drawing from the thought of Martin Luther, he challenges us not to try to manipulate or reduce God, but to "let God be God." Ignatius's Balance Surely Ignatius is not guilty of this reduction or denial of God. He had a strong sense of the immen-sity and majesty of God (he loved stargazing), as well as the closeness of God (recall his meditation on the Incarnation and birth of Jesus Christ in the Spiritual Exercises [§101-117]). But can this be said of all his followers? Might some be at times guilty of oversimpli-fying, reducing, identifying God with their own prefer-ences and thus not "letting God be God"? To put this more boldly; if we think it easy and pos-sible to find God in all things, might we end up by not finding the true God—the transcendent God—in or above any things? Emphasizing the finding of God in all things could become misleading and wrongheaded because it misses or misinterprets the special presence of God in some particular times, places, events, and things. Might this approach be similar to the positive emphasis on the generous and widespread presence and Review for Religious Schineller • Finding or Seeking God in All Things 64 offering of God's grace to all persons. If that view, good in itself, is pushed to the extreme, if all is grace, then we no longer distinguish between grace and non-grace, between grace and nature. Or, if all ground is seen as holy ground, then we might overlook or undercut the special presence or intervention, the special rev-elation of God. If we hold that everything i s sacred and noth-ing is profane or secular, then we could also hold the reverse, that nothing is sacred. Ultimately, it seems important and necessary that we maintain the distinction (not separation) of sacred and secular, of grace and nature, of the God who is in all things and yet above all things. Ignatius also writes of one other thing that Jesuits should seek in all things—namely, greater abnegation and continual mortification! "The better to arrive at this degree of perfection which is so precious in the spiritual life, [the] chief and most earnest endeavor [of the Jesuit candidate and those in formation] should be to seek in our Lord his greater abnegation and continual mortifica-tion in all things possible; and our endeavor should be to help him in those things to the extent that our Lord gives us his grace, for his greater praise and glory" [General Examen of the Constitutions of the Society of Jesus, §103]. While the seeking of mortification does not pre- If we think it easy and possible to find God in all things, might we end up by not finding the true God— the transcendent God— in or above any things? 71.1 2012 65 clude the effort to seek, find, and serve God in all things, surely it derives from a very different, and more sober perspective. It offers a balance to an overly posi-tive, totally one-sided incarnational spirituality. Ignatius is reminding us that the God or Christ that we seek and serve in all things is the Christ of the cross (abnega-tion and mortification) as well as the Christ of glory who comes with power. Thus Ignatius can write regard-ing the qualifications of the rector of a college, that he should "be a man of great example, edification and mortification of all his evil inclinations" [Constitutions, §423]. The ideal superior is one who both practices mortification and seeks to find God in all things! Living with and Maintaining the Tension Deus Semper Major—God Ever Greater—is the title of the monumental work of Erich Pryzwara sj on Ignatius of Loyola.9 The God of Ignatius, the God we seek, find, love, and serve is ever greater, always more. God is in all, but also always above all. Ignatius had the ability to keep seemingly opposing tensions or ten-dencies in view—prayer and action, contemplation and action, the local and the universal, trust in God and trust in our talents and efforts, and obedience and free-dom. In these reflections we are pointing to 1) the ten-sion between the God in all things, and the God above all things and 2) the possible tension between seeking God in all things, and finding God in all things. It seems best and most creative to hold on to both elements of these two tensions and not eliminate one or the other. In one tension we hold that God is in and also above all things: incarnate, indwelling, working in the world, and yet, in keeping with the fourth part of the Contemplation to Attain the Love of God, above Review for Religious Schineller • Finding or Seeking God in All Things 66 and beyond, the source of all. In the second tension, we maintain both the seeking for and the finding of God. St. Augustine writes that we would not seek God unless we had already found (and been found by) God. So I am simply suggesting that rather than conflate the two, or eliminate one or the other, we place a bit more emphasis on the seeking and searching, and less on the finding, in accord with Deut. 4:29: "from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find him if you search after him with all your heart and soul." A Caution and a Challenge Does this mean we should not use the phrase "find-ing God in all things"? No. It is in common use and does reflect the way Ignatius was interpreted by his contem-poraries even if Ignatius was normally reticent in using it. At the same time, we should use the words carefully and with awe, recalling that God is always greater and beyond. We dare not think we have captured God. We can preserve and use "finding God in all things" if we emphasize the search, the process, the prayerful effort of trying to find God in places and events around us. Two final cautions: Meister Eckhart said that "Foolish people deem that they should look upon God as though he stood there and they here. It is not thus." God is ever greater, ever here, and ever beyond. We might recall, too, the words of Fr. John Courtney Murray when he saw a poster to be used at a demonstration. Expressing the spirit of the times and a commitment to faith and justice, the poster read: "God Is Other People!" Murray is reported to have said "They forgot the comma after the word 'other.' It should read: 'God is Other, People!' " Probably the strongest challenge now is to seek and find God in the cities, in the world of technology and 71.1 2012 67 computers. We should not seek to find God only in sun-sets and stars and in the least of the sisters and broth-ers, but also amid skyscrapers and elevators, amid steel and concrete buildings, amid asphalt streets, on subways and in airplanes—wherever God seems to be edged out, overlooked, or denied. If the challenge seems daunting, we might be consoled by the words St. Augustine attri-butes to God: "you would not search for me unless you had already found me." And, we might add, we would not search for God "unless God had already found us." Notes 1 Avery Dulles sj, "The Ignatian Charism and Contemporary Theology." America (26 April 1997): 16. 2 Monumenta Historica Societatis Iesu, Mon. Nadal, iv, 651. 3 Monumenta Historica Societatis Iesu, Vita Ignatii Loyolae, in Fontes Narrativi, iv, 742. 4 Ignatius of Loyola, Autobiography, §99. 5 Ignatius of Loyola: Letters and Instructions, (St. Louis: Institute of Jesuit Sources, 2006), p. 342. 6 Adolfo Nicolás sj, "Challenges to Jesuit Higher Education Today." Conversations on Jesuit Higher Education 40 (Fall 2011): 9. 7 George Steiner, My Unwritten Books, (New York: New Directions Books, 2008), p. 209. 8 James Gustafson, "The Denial of God as God." Criterion (Autumn 1977): 6-9. 9 Erich Przywara sj, Deus Semper Major: Theologie der Exercitien (Freiburg im Breisgau: Herder, 1940). Review for Religious 68 In Distressing Disguise for Agnes Gonxha Bejaxhiu he's a lonely old man dandruff dusts his faded black shirt some polyester blend shiny, holding odors of sweat and cigarettes and left-overs some of which remains on the front of his trousers the purple around his neck shabby, soiled, worn-out even burned a little in one place careless as he is with his smokes over my head his palsied hand trembles and to my ears come mumbled words of grace while my heart strains to see Him, to see His true face, here before me in distressing disguise. Sean Kinsella Winter Sunset At exactly five-fifteen p.m. the over-ripe sun paused a second on the town's rim, all the horizon's color sealed in its neon pulp. I could hardly stop gazing, sure it would burst and spill red-orange juice, winter's redemptive blood, across the Western sky. Patricia Schnapp rsm The Warmth, the Will, and the Way The dilemma is that I am not making very steady progress on my spiritual journey. This leads me to think that I need more consistency. Since I already live "a stable way of life" as a member of a religious order, my basic direc-tion is set. I see that this way of life is leading me where the deepest currents of my heart want me to go. But despite that general clar-ity of direction, I find myself dawdling along, sometimes going backwards, often wandering off to explore some curiosity, rarely totally focused on the path, much less on the goal, of this particular journey on which the Way is also the End. We often pray that the Holy Spirit will fill our hearts and "enkindle in them the fire" of 71.1 2012 sharing experi-ence 69 ben harrison Ben Harrison mc is a Missionaries of Charity Brother. He has worked in formation and has journeyed, in the U.S. and Europe, alongside homeless people, prisoners, addicts, and other people on the margins of society. His email is . Review for Religious Harrison • The Warmth, the Will, and the Way 70 his love. Once on a retreat I was complaining to the director that I didn't feel any sense of God's presence, and he assured me that I wouldn't be feeling the absence if there weren't a kind of presence; the longing itself was a sign of the Spirit's presence. If I could welcome that longing as a warming presence rather than endure it as a chilling absence, it would help to enkindle the fire of his love. When I speak of this warmth of heart I am not talk-ing about seeking emotional experiences in prayer but rather of finding that sense of inner presence that is so important in the prayer of Eastern Christianity. My mind and the actions it inspires range all over the place, but if I am attentive to that warmth in my heart, the inner pres-ence not only influences my thoughts and feelings but also anchors my actions and desires. This sense of warmth, then, helps me to be more consistent on my spiritual way. I frequently have very good insights, and for a long time I thought that they could keep me centered. I often thought, "Oh, what a brilliant idea! If I can only remember that every day, I will be set for life." And so I would make a note and stick it on the door, or I would write a prayer and say it every morning, until it became so routine that what I was saying didn't even register. Soon I would have another brilliant insight with life-changing potential. Such thoughts are like matches that provide real fire, but only for a few minutes. Then, unless the match is touched to a candle or to a heap of kindling, it is spent. I need something more reliable than insights. I need something more reliable than insights. 71.1 2012 71 Perhaps the secret is to do what would be done in a cottage in the woods: continually add fuel to the fire, a log at a time, to keep it burning. Then, late at night, bank the coals, rake them together in a little pile so that the heat will not dissipate. A few glowing embers will remain in the morning, upon which new kindling can be placed and fresh wood arranged so all is ready to warm the beginnings of the new day. That way the hearth never grows cold. I am discovering that this warmth of heart is a sign of the Spirit's presence with me, abiding in me, direct-ing me toward the goal. But there is something else that seems to be essential in order to deepen that presence and strengthen God's claim on me—what I would call will. The desire is there: the forward impulse, the yearn-ing for the heights, the longing to surrender my being to the One Who Is. What is the difference between this desire and will? To wish for something is to entertain a desire for it; to want it is to own that desire; to will it is to act on that desire, to put it into operation. Will has about it an element of determination. And it is not something I can drum up within myself. It has to be given. St. Paul says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil 2:12-13). Will and the Vows As I think about my vocation, I would say that my will is expressed, above all, by the vows. My vows are the way I demonstrate to myself, to God, and to oth-ers this desire to belong totally to him. The Latin verb for will is volo, velle, and the Latin verb voveo, vovere means vow or wish. Though etymologically the roots of volo and voveo do not seem to be related, there is, Review for Religious Harrison • The Warmth, the Will, and the Way 72 to my mind, a consonance of meaning. The vows of religious life are a way of making concrete the double-edged desire that is God's desire for me, expressed in a call—a word spoken silently in the heart—that awakens a reciprocating desire in me. His desire to give himself completely to me sets that very same flame alight in me so that I desire to give myself irrevocably to him. The gentle fire of the Spirit's warmth that God enkindles in my heart is drawing me, slowly but surely, toward the blazing glory at the heart of God, and my vows repre-sent the power of that attraction and my determination by God's grace to reach that goal. I see the vows of religious life as the embodiment and expression of the will to be united with God and to give myself to him totally in a particular context, in response to his gift of himself to us in Christ. This is so whether we are speaking of the monastic vows of obedi-ence, stability, and conversion of life or the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience (or, for that matter, similar sets of vows or promises: those of priest-hood or sacramental marriage, of virginity or service, of oblate-hood or lay association). From primitive times a vow was a solemn promise to make some gift or sacrifice to a divinity as an earnest of a good requested or in thanksgiving for a boon received. Although on a literal level this sounds like a type of bargaining or commerce, I can also see it as a way of demonstrating to myself and my God how important something is to me, how sincerely I desire it, how des-perately I need it, how serious my intentions are. The medieval king might have prayed, "Lord, defend us from the threat of these brutal enemies and I will build a church for your glory." Or a mother may pray, "Lord, if you spare my daughter from this dread disease, 71.1 2012 73 I will do everything I can to support research for its cure." Or a widow may say, as one I know did, "Lord, if I am spared from this condition leading to blindness, I will never use my eyes to take pleasure in what is not good and pure." Thus we see how a vow is an expression of a wish for some good for oneself or others. The Italian word for such a commitment is impegno, which can be translated as "pledge." Literally, some-thing given in pegno is pawned. By the vows I am putting the treasure of my earthly life in pledge for a higher good. I am putting my security, my posterity, and my liberty in pawn for something I need more urgently. What is it, in this case, that I need so urgently? I need the grace to live up to this persistent impulse to give myself—an impulse that God has placed in my heart. I know that the faith, hope, and love in me are too weak and faltering to do the job, to get me where I yearn to go. And so I pledge what I have to him and entrust my poor being to him, not to pay him for what he freely gives, but to show him (and myself) that I am serious about following him and that I trust him with this pre-cious but paltry gift of my life, trust that he will keep it safe and see it redeemed and restored in his own time. Pledging my life to him, I am confident that he will give me the grace I need to live each day. In the world of commerce, one pawns something of value for ready money—something that has value but is not spendable, for something that can be spent. The ready cash makes it possible to buy what is needed today. Another word for this ready cash is currency, also called fluid or liquid assets. All these words—"current," "fluid," "liquid"— suggest an action of flowing and remind us of the Spirit, that spring of living water that flows forth from the heart of Christ. Review for Religious Harrison • The Warmth, the Will, and the Way 74 Thus, when I make my profession of vows, I am proclaiming my faith in God and my desire to belong to him. The vows that I pronounce represent the totality of my gift of self. In the institute to which I belong, we profess the evangelical counsels—the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. These three vows are an apt symbol of the totality of my life. By dedicating to God all that I have, all that I love, and all my choices and decisions now and in the future, I am effectively giv-ing him all I am. This triad of the evangelical counsels reflects a totality of being, as do many similar triads. I have no trouble, for example, in seeing parallels between the vows and St. Ignatius's prayer surrender-ing "my memory, my understanding, my entire will." The traditional baptismal formula asks us to renounce "the world, the flesh, and the devil." Scripture tells us that we are to love God with our whole heart, soul, and mind (Mt 22:37). The magi brought the treasures of the nations—gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Micah tells us that our sole obligation is "to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God" (Mi 6:8). It is easy to see how the three evangelical counsels reflect the three theological gifts of faith, hope, and love. And finally, without putting too fine a point on the comparison, I suggest that the vow of poverty is descriptive of my relationship with the Father, without whom I am nothing and have nothing; chastity reflects my relationship with the Word, the Son, who is friend, Savior, and Bridegroom of souls; and obedience is the domain of the Spirit, who prompts the content of obe-dience and makes possible its practice. The act of making vows is thus a statement of my desire to surrender myself absolutely to the Absolute, to dedicate myself to his way and consecrate myself to his 71.1 2012 75 purpose. The mutuality of giving to which God invites me does not mean a mere absorption in each other. Though I would be content to lose myself in God, he seems to want more for me than that. God wants me to share his love for others and so, by my self-offering, he unites me to his own mission—his out-pouring, in-gathering action of universal love. Thus I am given to the particular apostolates and ministries of the institute in which I live my vocation. Sometimes vows are spoken of as sacred bonds. Bonds are something that we feel gripping us, holding or securing us. If bonds are involuntary we feel them as a constraint, an injustice. If they are desired, we feel them as a comfort, a belong-ing, an embrace. I suppose anyone who makes vows feels them sometimes as a restriction and some-times as a liberation. But part of the radi-cal nature of such a commitment is the protestation that one is willing to pay the price, that one values the liberation of giving oneself more than the security of having oneself. It is a recognition that dying to self is the road to life and that the cross shared is the victory won. Like the fox in Antoine de Saint-Exupéry's The Little Prince, I want nothing more than for the Little Prince to tame me, so that "the wheat, which is golden [like your hair], will remind me of you. And I'll love the sound of the wind in the wheat." The act of making vows is a statement of my desire to surrender myself absolutely to the Absolute. Review for Religious Harrison • The Warmth, the Will, and the Way 76 Consistency in the Way Returning, then, to my original point, I am saying that two things will help me to find a salutary consis-tency in my spiritual journey: the abiding warmth of the Spirit's presence in my heart, and the will—the determination—to yield to the relentless attraction of Jesus drawing me, and all, to himself. God's love for me in Christ arouses a reciprocating love in me. I give my poor self to him in pledge, not because I have to but because I want to, and he gives me, in return, the wherewithal to make the journey: the daily bread, the water from the rock, and the yearning for home—for the harbor—at the heart of God. Perhaps the greatest indication of his love that God has given me, from my point of view, is not his love itself for me (of which I can scarcely conceive) but my love for him, which is a sweet hunger, a soothing need. Nor is my love for him something that I can claim or that I often feel, but rather an occasional glimpse of light; a fitful melting of joy; a momentary, faint intima-tion of promised ecstasy. It is to the memory of those rare moments of tender quickening, of nostalgia for the unknown, that my will clings during the long periods of dryness, confusion, and loss. It is will that keeps me walking on the way when even the cherished memory fades and all I have left to fall back on is the Spirit's quiet presence in my heart. Indeed, it is all up to God. It is he who supports the journey from behind with his warm abiding. It is he who lures me from ahead through that hunger in my heart. And it is he who strengthens me on the way by the will to journey on. Each day's reminder of that will at work in me is the comforting burden of the vows, by which I experience within myself the debt of love, the 71.1 2012 77 yoke of gratitude, the claim of oneness by which I know that I am his. Being as I am, the fact that I do not manage to live my vows wholeheartedly is not surprising. But it is important that I feel the rub and the pinch and the chafe of them against my stubborn self. As my need and desire for God become stronger than all lesser needs and desires, so the bonds of my belonging to him will grow stronger than all my resistances. At the point that I can give myself without reserve, I will be free. And how do I dare to think that I will reach that point? St. Paul tells us that if God has gone so far as to give his Son for us, "will he not also give us all things with him?" (Rom 8:32). And Paul says further, "I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6). I trust that God would not have put this desire in my heart, and that of my companions on the way, if he didn't intend to give us the grace to see it through. Home Walking the Labyrinth at Chartres Home. Is it where I begin or end or at the middle stillpoint? Am I at home on the way? Here I am, Lord. Never far from the beginning always approaching the end continually circling the center. Eugene Cartier Review for Religious Getting with the Program P robably one of the most important graces of my novitiate was coming to realize that I had an addiction. It was a painful and embarrassing experience, and yet I have no doubt that it was the best thing that has happened to me in a number of years. During my novitiate I started accessing pornogra-phy online. It was a development I was so ashamed of that I was afraid it would herald the end of my journey into religious life. Previously I had bought magazines and sought out sexually stimulating images in films or through image search engines on the Internet. My behavior began to take root at an early age in romantic fantasy. I would fantasize about being with a girl and wooing her in some exotic setting. Even though I was sexually inexperienced and naive and did not know what adults did together between the sheets, I would some-times escape into this fantasy when I went to bed. 78 A young man writes of his experience of coming to terms during the novitiate with his addiction to pornography. He has requested that the article be published anonym

Dean W. Hurst ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 78p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound discs: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Dean W. Hurst Personal History 13 April 2003 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Dean W. Hurst Personal History 13 April 2003 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection includes interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories date back to the early settlement of North Ogden, and cover various topics including the History of Fort Buenaventura, city government affairs, controversial issues, Latinos in Ogden, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Hurst, Dean, a personal history by Dean W. Hurst, 13 April 2003, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Dean W. Hurst ca. 1967 1 Abstract: Dean W. Hurst shares his recollections of growing up in Ogden, Utah and his involvement with Weber State College in a personal history interview held on April 13, 2003. Dean's involvement with Weber began as a student before being drafted into the military in February of 1945 and sent to Ft. Douglas where he was trained as a paratrooper assigned to the 517th Airborne. Following his military service, Dean returned to Weber State and became actively involved in the alumni association. In 1967, Dean began his career at Weber State College as the Director of Alumni and Development Director and progressed to the position of Vice President of College Relations. He retired from Weber State University in 1991. Dean shares stories of his childhood as well as his family and friends and the memorable experiences throughout his life. DH: I have found that memories belong to those that have them. Two people who remember the same incident often remember it in different ways. What I'm going to talk about may be a little different than your memories, but allow me the privilege of having them as I remember. I don't remember much about the circumstances of my birth, I have to rely on what Mother told me. I was born on December 4, 1926 in Ogden, Utah delivered by Dr. Merrill. My brother, Farr, was born at the hospital and suffered a somewhat traumatic experience. Mother decided to go the whole nine yards at home as she later did with both Jimmy and Bonnie Lee. At the time, Dad had been burned in a fire, so my birth was particularly difficult in the nature of the birth and the fact that Dad was not expected to live for the first 3 months from the time that he was burned. It happened the day after Thanksgiving and I was born 2 within a week of that time. It was 3 months later that Dad gave me a blessing. He was almost crippled to the point that he couldn't walk, but was able to walk down the aisle at church and give me a church confirmation blessing. Another circumstance that made it difficult for Mom was that Farr had fallen down the basement steps and put his teeth through his lip. Also, Grandmother, who was assisting Mother, had come down with influenza or some terrible sickness and was out of her head telling Mother that we were going to have to amputate Dad's legs and that he was going to die anyway. So, Mother had a screaming baby who was left in another room adjacent to her bedroom. I developed pneumonia and nearly died at that point. Mother told me that I didn't eat and developed what could have turned into the beginning stages of rickets. The family story is that Aunt Annie, who delivered my cousin Jack six months later, ended up nursing me. So, my Aunt Annie was my nurse in the period of time when Mom was sick and didn't have enough milk. We grew up in an area probably as ideal as any person could ever want. I know that there were homes that were bigger or more luxurious, but our home at 2940 Ogden Avenue was utopian for a boy to grow up. It was in the middle of the block between 29th and 30th Street and Washington and Adams. Grandfather Hurst bought a number of pieces of property within the area so there were areas large enough to play games like football and baseball. We had great ball games there. There were a number of trees that we could build tree houses in. There was room to dig undergrounds and we always seemed to have a supply of lumber. I don't know where we got it all, but I do remember taking some out of an 3 old fence. There were old buildings and whatever the situation, there always seemed to be something we could build for any of the undergrounds or tree huts. We had an ideal family relationship with our grandparents. Grandparents Hurst lived just immediately next to our home for a number of years. Aunt Annie and Uncle Herb were across the street. Aunt Lydia and Uncle Earn were just up the street from us too. At one period of time, there was Uncle Leonard and Aunt Floss and Aunt Velma and Uncle Jim. It was like a communal order. I don't remember having a key to the door or a lock. It was kind of an "open house." I've mentioned Aunts and Uncles, but I haven't talked about cousins. There was Jack, Gene, Fern, Lavar, Bob, Shirley, Keith, and Jerry. Later, Jim, Annette and Bonnie came along. I remember a Dutch family that lived in a home that Grandpa built, the Koolmans. We used to take our grass clippings from our lawn to feed their chickens. Harold White lived across the street and was probably my oldest and closest friend up until the time we were teenagers and had begun to differ a little bit in some standards. I had more of a religious inclination than Harold did, but he was a good friend. His younger sister, Carol, is one of Bonnie's closest friends and remains so to this day. It was an ideal place not only for the home, but for our extended family. At Easter, we would go to Little Mountain and roll Easter eggs. (I haven't got the symbolism of that yet because they'd generally break into pieces rolling them down the hill.) A favorite place was East of Ogden, right where the Mt. Ogden Golf Course is now, where we would picnic and barbeque. I had a great time as a child. I remember one Easter we drove out to the sand hills, which was 4 another fun place across the Ogden River next to a place called Salamander Pond. There was a beautiful little glen called Sylvan Hollow. It's totally gone now; you can't even see a remnant of it. They made a garbage dump out of it. A lot of the old scenes of childhood have since gone, but one time we went there on a rainy Easter and ate our Easter eggs in the car. We had great night games in the neighborhood. We'd play, "Run Sheep, Run," "Ice Man," and "Kick-the-Can," with all the neighborhood kids and cousins. Another thing during those depression years that was so much fun was mulligan stew. We would get a gallon bucket and build a fire from whatever we could find from the neighbor's fence or place. We'd get the BB gun and go over to a pigeon loft in an old chicken coop and "plink" off a pigeon or two that we could put in our mulligan stew. It consisted of whatever anybody could bring; an onion, potatoes, carrots, etc. Squab was pretty good, but you don't see it on menus much anymore. Years later, I was talking with a girl that lived adjacent to us named Beverly Shipley and as we commented on the old neighborhood the first thing she said was, "I remember those mulligan stews." I didn't think she'd remember, but she remembered making a fire and putting potatoes in it so they would get blackened husks and you'd rip that open and eat the potato out of it. We had a lot of great times. We were having a little bonfire and roasting marshmallows out in the yard right next to our house. Our oldest cousin, Lavar, was there and his marshmallow caught on fire. Lavar flipped it and the marshmallow hit Gene Swaner in the eye. How he survived childhood I don't understand. He seemed to be on the wrong 5 end of any accident and he had cuts, bruises, and abrasions all over his head, cheek and elbows. It was just accidental, but I can remember that flaming marshmallow hitting him in the eye and it stuck. It was like a ball of hot tar in there. I don't remember how we ever had the capacity to build that tree house in the big box elder tree behind our garage, but it was well-built. It had to be at least 25 feet above ground. It had a deck, a bench, four sides, and a trap door in the middle where you could climb in from the bottom. We even carpeted it. Where in the world did we get the piece of asphalt roofing that we put over the roof? I don't remember where we got all the material. One day, we came home and some wretch had knocked the hut down and pushed it out. We never did know who did it. It was remarkable when I think about how we got up that high, put the pieces in place and built it. Of course, we had carpenter families. We grew up in the radio days before the days of television. We grew up to the strains of, "Who's that little curly locks, the one with all the auburn locks, who can it be? It's Little Orphan Annie," or "Ranfrue of the Mounties." We'd listen to those and have our secret decoder rings. We thrived on the ones later at night, "Myrt & Marge," "I Love a Mystery," and "The Great Gildersleeve." Those were great radio days as I recall. Neither Mother nor Dad had the means to give us special music lessons or anything. Farr had a little bit of a knack for singing and I remember Farr and Fern sang "Santa Lucia." They did well and sang in harmony. I had absolutely no musical talent. Mother taught me readings that she learned from her mother. My 6 favorite readings are probably the ones from Edgar A. Guest such as, "Pa Shaved Off His Whiskers." ("I haven't had such jolly fun for 40,000 years I laughed and laughed until I thought my eyes were running out in tears. There never was a mother's son that had such jolly roaring fun as children have begun since pa shaved off his whiskers.") I remember that particularly well and many other verses because during that time Dad grew a beautiful beard. Bonnie had just been born when Dad shaved off his whiskers and she didn't recognize him. She doesn't remember that, but we sure did. She was used to Dad with a great set of full whiskers and his derby hat on. I went on to learn a whole host of Edgar A. Guest poems that I can't even find copies of anymore. A favorite was, "Little Orphan Annie." ("Little Orphan Annie came to our house to stay, to wash the cups and saucers up and brush the crumbs away and to shoo the chickens…etc.") I had two great loves in my life. As a child, my preoccupation was cowboys. I can remember getting Mom and Dad to drive me down to Wall Avenue where I could see a picture of a cowboy with Levi's on made by Scowcroft's Never Rip Overalls. One of my earliest recollections was Grandmother Hurst made me a little holster to hold a cap gun and Grandmother Salt made me a pair of chaps. I wanted a rocking horse and I remember going to the old Emporium and there was the most beautiful rocking horse. It was a dapple gray with a beautiful black harness with red trim. I wanted that horse and I asked for it from Santa Claus, but I didn't get it. Mother and Dad were so concerned. These were difficult years. We were not poor, but there were tough 7 times. Dad built a rocking horse and I have to say I have felt bad all of my life that I can't remember it. Mother and Dad have described it to me. He made it out of an old log and it had a little saddle in the middle. The rocking horse I do remember was the old rocking chair in the front room. To me, it looked like a horse with the arm rest where I could sit. I made a pair of spurs with rubber elastic tubing and a nail in it. I spurred that horse for 40 miles over hill and dell. I can remember Mom and Dad scolding me about that. Anyway, that was my rocking horse. I also had a great love of drawing and I'd use up reams of paper that Farr had for school. I could be anything in the world that I wanted on paper. I could draw pictures of the army, cowboys, Indians, soldiers, airplanes, and my imagination could just run rampant. I had an imaginary friend whose name was Bim. He was my companion as a young kid. He was the sheriff of the town, I was his side kick and together we rode the range. School and church were very much a part of my childhood years and I can remember Primary and the days that we went and I still remember "SHSK," Spiritual Health Service Knowledge. I can still sing, "Oh we are the boy trail builders…" I did that in church a while ago and had half the congregation singing along with me. I always enjoyed church. I was noisy and disruptive and I had a lot of teachers that would have been happy to kick me out of the class. Grelden Nelson used to bribe me with candy. I remember some really had a hard time with me. I don't believe I was mean, I was just overly energetic. 8 There was one very spiritual thing about my baptism. I was baptized in the old 17th ward. It had a baptismal font. I used to think of this often because I was on the high council at the college stake when Alan Hall was a bishop. His office was built over the old baptismal font. I used to sit in that meeting and remember what, to me as an 8-year-old, was a very spiritual experience. A lot of people say they don't remember their baptism or anything that happened. It was memorable for me. As I was waiting to be baptized, I looked up at the font and saw a dove that illuminated with a neon light. I thought that was really cool. I heard the story about Jesus going into the water and the Father speaking, "This is my beloved son," then having the Holy Ghost descend as a dove. Many years later, I went into that old baptismal font and I wondered what happened to that dove. I asked someone and the person shook his head and said, "There never was, never is, and never has been anything like that." I told that story to a person one time that came up to me after and said, "You had the sign of the dove given to you at that time of baptism." I didn't particularly think of it as a child, but as an adult I thought, "I can accept that." Maybe a skeptic would say that it was just what I thought of in my childlike mind and imagination. To me, it has always been a very real and very personal experience. We enjoyed a host of things as young kids growing up. We could get free buttermilk at the old Cream of Weber Dairy on Adams Avenue. The old Alahambra Theatre was built on Kiesel Avenue. It became the Paramount Theater later, but it was the Alahambra originally. The Lyceum Theater on 25th Street is still there. The Popeye Club at the Paramount was a dime or 15 cents 9 and we could see half a dozen cartoons, two double features and a host of other things. Mother and Dad would send us off on Saturday morning and we wouldn't come back until the evening. We'd get out of the Ogden Theater on 25th Street and stop to get a cold glass of buttermilk free out of the spigot at the old dairy. It was real buttermilk with chunks of butter floating around the ice cold whey. Those are great memories I have. I remember fishing with the families at Bull Run, Lost Creek, and Chalk Creek. We had to put the old Model-T Ford in Rucksel Gear and take it up in reverse because it didn't have enough power to get up the steep hills. I loved the outdoors. I remember a lot of hiking with cousins and fishing with uncles and Dad, who was always the champion fisherman. One time, Uncle Herb and Dad came back and Uncle Herb had one more fish than Dad, so Dad took his fishing pole out to the river to catch one more fish just to catch up. There were always those kinds of fun competitions. We would hike up to Malan's Peak or Waterfall Canyon which was one of our favorites. We hiked to Mt. Ogden Peak and I think that got us some training for later hikes to Ben Lomond when Mother and Dad were taking care of the girls' camp in North Fork Canyon. I was exposed to work early. We would chop firewood for the stove and at one time we had to paint the house. I don't know how good a job we did. Ours was a lovely home even though it was small. Aunt Lydia and Uncle Earn lived there at one time when they were finishing their home. Uncle Herb and Annie also lived there once. Including their family and ours, there would have been 12 people living there at one time with one bathroom upstairs and very limited water 10 sources. We laughed about the fact now that we were on a septic tank and many times had to use other means. In that time, people just didn't bathe more than once a week. We just didn't have the water. We didn't have an indoor toilet until I was 9 or 10-years-old. I remember well the births of my younger sister and brother. I remember praying so hard for a sister. She was an answer to our prayer. Following each of their births, I was shocked to see my brother and sister for the first time when their eyes were totally blackened with silver nitrate. It used to be put in the eyes of all the children as prevention for venereal disease. It was mandated by law at that time. Their eyes were just an absolute black like they had put charcoal in them. I enjoyed school. I remember going to school the first time and Farr showed me the ropes. Mother started me a little early, which I don't think was that good for me. She thought I was ready for school, but it put me almost a year behind in growth so I was smaller than most of the kids. If you look at my class pictures, particularly through junior high school, I was much smaller and it made it difficult for competing in school and athletic events. There was a stigma about being six to eight months younger than the girls in my class. I don't think I was as sharp mentally either. She did it because she thought I was ready. I think she wanted to get me out of the house. I struggled in some classes in school though. I really suffered thinking I must have been dumb because I had a hard time with algebra. It was easier for me to just freehand geometry than to try to figure out all the angles and curves. I really struggled. I had a teacher in the 5th grade named 11 Mary Jensen. She recognized in me a certain talent for art. I began to feel I had something that made me as good as the rest of the kids. I was recognized along with Beverly Shipley as the best artist in the 5th grade. That kind of carried me through a number of classes. I also followed up with a lot of drama for which I had a natural inclination. When I was four or five years of age, Mom and Dad needed a child to be in a play they were in. It was a story about a kidnapped child and I was to be the kidnapped child. I didn't have to say anything. After they brought me on, the dialogue went on for three acts and to show my total dramatic ability, I went to sleep. I slept through the entire performance. At the end, I was supposed to wake up and run to Momma when she came in. I didn't wake up for my dramatic scene. I slept right through it. I gave readings of the poems that Mother taught me earlier in my childhood all over the city. I remember Mother taking me to MIA's, competitions, road shows and any number of shows while I did my bit. I remember doing readings of: "Castor Oil of all the Nasty Stuff," "Gee Whiz, That is the Very Worst There Is," "Pa Shaved Off His Whiskers," and "Ma Fixes Things." Those poems carried me through until my junior high school days when I really got into more heavy poems. They had contests at the city schools. I did a reading of, "Penrod and Sam," which was a classic. Penrod's friend, Sam, was tongue-tied, so Mrs. Dobbs taught me how to be tongue-tied by rolling an elastic band on my tongue. I did the reading of "Penrod and Sam" and won a contest as well as, "Willis McPrang," and "Cleaning His Garage." The poem that took me from beginner to 12 stellar was Alfred Noyse's, "The Highway Man." I won a local contest with that and it was one of Mother's favorites. My first date was with a pretty girl named Betty Dawn Agey. I think that was in the eighth grade. The Ageys lived right next to Grandma and Grandpa Salt on 30th Street. It was just one of those dates where we went to a school party. My first serious date was with a girl named Carol Moyes. I was student body president and I finally had the guts to ask a pretty girl to a dance. She remains a very special friend to this day. She's lost her husband and occasionally we'll meet. Carol Moyes was the first girl I ever kissed. When I was 15-years-old, a number of big things happened in life. I was going to rehearse for a school play and they announced that Pearl Harbor had been bombed. In that same spectrum of time, I went to work at Lowe's Hardware because the men had all gone to war and they were hiring kids at just 15-years-old. I was doing a man's work and worked there for a period of time before going to work for Tanner's clothing store. During the war, I worked at the Naval Supply Depot. I met Laurence Burton at Ogden High School. He had a great impact on my life. He was a very popular guy in school and we were in the school play together. We wrote a little take off of Hamlet called, "Hamlet: Prince of Denmark." We put it on in high school and had Mrs. Chambers help us with it. Laurence and I became very close friends in high school and into college. I went to college at Weber while I was waiting to be drafted. My birthday was December 4th and I graduated from Ogden High School in June of 1944. I worked at the supply depot in the summer while waiting to go in the military. I 13 took classes in aerodynamics, theory of flight, learned about pseudoadiobatic charts in preparation for the Army Air Force Cadet program. You could join when you were 17 and when you turned 18 you automatically went into flight school. The war was beginning to wind up at the beginning of that time and others who had gone in a little bit before me were put in gunnery school. I wanted to fly. Laurence and I got out of the program and tried to go into the Navy. I passed the first battery of tests and went on to the physical tests and found out that my eyes were not good enough. So, I was out of the Air Force, Army and the Navy. My cousin, Dick Salt, had the idea to go into the Merchant Marines, so I joined and prior to leaving I double checked with my draft board and they said, "Dean, your draft notice will be in the mail by December 5th, the day after your birthday and they'll take you out of the Merchant Marines." I got out of the Merchant Marines and my actual draft notice didn't come until February. It ended up being a blessing in disguise because the guys that went into the Merchant Marines were drafted back into military service when they came home. I left in March and went to Ft. Douglas. I volunteered for the Marines, but the quota was full. I tried to get into the Navy and there was no opening there. The only option left was the infantry and I thought, "Anything but the plain infantry." I remembered seeing a fellow walking down the street with jump boots and the Airborne patch on his shoulder and thought, "That's cool." So, I volunteered for the paratroops. I went through basic training at Camp Maxey in Texas. I was an acting sergeant all through infantry basic and an expert infantryman which was the highest honor you could get at that time. I was very 14 serious. I wanted to be a good soldier and I wanted to save my life. I figured the harder I worked, the better prepared I would be for the jump school. I knew it was going to be hard and wanted to succeed. My original group of trainees went overseas and ended up in the last campaigns in Okinawa. In later years, I talked to a couple of the guys in my outfit that had seen action. Two of the fellows that I knew had been killed in Okinawa. I met a paratrooper walking up the street and I went up to him and said, "Hey, I joined the paratroopers too." He said, "You dumb son of a.," I found out that he was an old shot up veteran who had been in combat. He must have been with the 11th Airborne. He was probably hurt in one of the jumps there. When I learned the quota for jump school was full, I thought that I wouldn't be going. One of my sergeants pulled strings and got me in and only three of us in that whole group ended up going to the paratroops. It turned out great. The period of time I spent in training gave me a chance to develop some real challenges physically. The most frightening thing in jump school at Fort Benning, Georgia was jumping from the 275 foot towers. They pulled us up, hit a release and the parachute dropped. I'll never forget the older troopers singing, "There was blood upon the risers, there was brains upon the chute." I thought, "I'll go through training to prove I can do it. I just won't jump." I went through all of the stages, packed the chutes and learned everything. When the first jump came I thought, "If I don't feel like it, I won't go." I looked up and there was a fellow still standing there and the jump master said, "What's the matter soldier?" He said, "Well, I don't think I'll jump." The jump master said, "I think you better jump and then if 15 you don't want to anymore you don't have to." He said, "I've never been up 1,500 feet in the air and that doesn't stop me from being scared." The jump master said, "You're going to jump." He grabbed him, turned him around and threw him out the door. I looked out the window as he went out and he was like a cat just flailing around. I thought, "Well, I guess I'll jump." So I did. I was assigned to the 517th Airborne. The war ended while we were making a practice jump. We were training for an invasion of Japan and we were making a night simulated combat jump when they announced the atomic bomb was dropped. We knew that the official surrender hadn't been signed, but the war was over. That night, Johnny Barnes, who slept above me, was killed on a night jump. It was just one of those accidents that happen in the Airborne. I had a lot of fun in the service and had some good friends. I was a member of the honor guard. We paraded in Philadelphia, Boston and probably one of the highlights of my Army career was being in the New York World War II victory parade. The 82nd was chosen to be the honor guard for that. We paraded all the way up to 5th Avenue under a confetti parade. It was a great thrill. The whole town came out for us and it was a marvelous experience. I met a fellow by the name of Bob Curran while I was in the service. Bob was a paratrooper who had made the Rhine jump in the 17th Airborne. We became good friends and he became interested in the L.D.S. church. He had a dog named Trooper and we felt we should make him a fully qualified parachutist, so I jumped with him. I dang near killed myself in that jump because I was coming in frontwards and I was afraid the bag with the dog had pulled out from the opening of the parachute and 16 was right over my knees. I was afraid that in my landing position I'd drive my knees and squash the dog, so I reversed myself with the risers facing backward which is the worst position. I came in and there was no way of flexing anything. I hit heels, butt and head as the bag smacked me in the face. I heard the dog make one little yelp. It knocked me out for a minute and when I came to I opened the bag and that dog looked dead as could be and I thought, "Oh boy, I killed the dog." Then it shook its head and opened its eyes. There was a Catholic kid from Philadelphia named Bob Titus, and the last jump I made in the service he and I jumped together. He was a bit of a nut and totally opposite from me. He was a bit of a drinker, a smoker, a party guy, and a staunch Catholic. We just had some other things in common and we were good friends. I didn't see him again for years and one day while I was working at Hill Air Force base, there was a phone call and they said, "Is this the Dean Hurst who was in the 82nd Airborne Division?" I said, "Yes." He said, "This is Bob "Catholic" Titus, I just flew in and I wondered if I could come by." Bob had stayed in the service, went to flight school and was flying P-51's. He had been shot down over Korea. He had just landed at Hill Air Force Base. We had a fun get-together. We talked and laughed about the old days and I was really impressed. Thirty years later, I was at home and the phone rang and he said, "Is this the Dean Hurst that was in the 82nd Airborne Division?" I said, "Yes." He said, "This is General Titus." Bob Titus became one of the most highly decorated generals and was a Wing commander in Vietnam. I have yet to talk to an Air Force man that doesn't know of Bob Titus. He was at the end of his career at the 17 academy in Colorado Springs and he was doing some consulting at Hill AFB and brought his wife. She was a sweet lady. Carol and I took them to dinner and we began to correspond and send Christmas cards. One year, I didn't hear from him, so the next time I saw the General at Hill I asked, "What do you hear from Bob Titus?" He said, "You didn't hear? He died suddenly one year ago." He was a heavy smoker. Who would think that a relationship as divergent as that was would exist? That was just one of the great military experiences I had. I came back from the military and went to Weber College. I was very active as yearbook editor. Laurence and I developed a little routine called, "The Act," in which we did a song and dance routine. We put that on all over the place and had a great time. I met a girl I fell "desperately in love" with named, LouJean Sneddon. Unfortunately, she didn't fall as hard for me as I fell for her. That was another one of those blessings in disguise. I chose to go on an L.D.S. mission. I had been interviewed for a mission before with the bishop and I told him I felt I'd already served a mission. Later, I met a friend by the name of Don Belnap and he told me he had just accepted a mission call. I don't know why we make our minds up at certain times, but I knew right then that's what I should do. I was interviewed by elder Mark Peterson. I was very close with a group of Hawaiian kids in infantry basic, so when they asked where I wanted to go on the mission I said, "I'd like to go to Hawaii, but I'll go wherever I'm called." When my mission call came, it was to the Central Pacific Mission. I found out the headquarters was in Honolulu and of course that delighted me. When I'd left the Hawaiian kids after basic I said, "One day, I'll come and see you." The word spread and I bumped 18 into two or three of the guys. I still call a Hawaiian kid named Samuel Kaupuiki, who lives on Lanai and keeps me up with what happened after I left basic training. When I returned from my mission, I continued my schooling in art at the University of Utah and studied with some great teachers. My G.I. Bill ran out and I dropped out of school thinking it was going to be just for that summer. I went to Hill Air Force Base to be interviewed for a temporary summer job and found out there was an art job open which had some great opportunities. I took that job and ended up making it a career. I didn't go back to school until later when I took some additional classes at night school. I was very active in the alumni association both at Ogden High and Weber College. I became very active in the association in 1952 and that has never ended as far as involvement with Weber State. I was working at Hill Air Force Base when a good friend, Rulon Garfield, introduced me to Carol Watkins on blind date. I had just bought a beautiful new car. My first car was a little 1930 Model A Ford that I bought for 35 dollars. It had been used as a chicken coup, so I had to take the entire interior out and fix it up. I sold that first car for 100 dollars and then bought a 1932 Ford Coupe with a rumble seat. I painted it, fixed it up and sold it for 200 dollars and bought a 1939 Ford. Later, I traded it for a 1951 Ford Victoria with a continental kit on it. Carol though it was a Cadillac and I thought any girl that thought a Ford was a Cadillac was my kind of girl. I never dated another girl. I can't say the same about Carol not dating another fellow, but she was much younger and was attending school 19 at Utah State and I courted her while she was in college. We got married a year later and had our first child nine months later. Carol had gone from queen of the school and Miss Utah State to diapering babies nine months later. It was difficult to go through that transition. We lived in grandparent Watkins basement where Kevin was born and were there a short period of time while we were building a little home on Maple Drive. Dad and I built it and I did a lot of the work on that myself. I left Hill AFB at that time and began working for Pierson, Kearney and Hurst, an advertising and art agency. I'd been in an advertising agency that "Pony" Halverson and I started called Halverson Hurst Advertising and Art Agency. I was working five jobs. I was also working for Tanner's for Men, at the Cal Pack with Wes and Jack Swarner and doing freelance artwork on the side, so life was pretty busy. I probably didn't do any of them as well as I should have, but I worked really hard during that time. We built a little home on Maple Drive and lived there for nine years. We built it for $12,000 and sold it for $17,000. I worked for Pierson, Kearney and Hurst for 13 or 14 years and loved my time there, but after my 40th birthday I had an impression in the middle of the night that I should contact Weber College. I didn't know why and I thought when I'd wake up in the morning that impression would be gone. I put it off for a period of time, but then I called the college and oddly enough, President Miller answered the phone. I said, "President Miller, I don't really know why I'm calling you. Is there any kind of job up there that I could be doing?" He said, "Well, it's interesting that you'd call. There is a job that we are in the process of finalizing 20 and your name came up, but we didn't think we could hire you away." I said, "Well, what is it?" He said, "It is the Director of Alumni and Development Director." I didn't know a lot about that, but I knew Weber and a lot of people in the city. I said, "What are you offering?" He gave me a figure and I said, "I will never take a job for less than what I'm making. If you could make that a little bit higher, I'd be interested." He said, "I can't offer you the job, but you would certainly be a candidate at that price." I interviewed the following day, was offered the job and that started my career at Weber State. I took the job in January of 1967 and retired in 1991. I went from Executive Director of Alumni to the Director of College Relations and later Assistant to the President and then Vice President of College Relations. In that capacity, I had alumni, fundraising, public relations, development, the athletic program, the director of the Dee Events Center, the Director of the Browning Center and campus security. Elizabeth Dee Shaw knew my mother and lived in the old 10th Ward. The Dee's and the Barker's and their families lived there on the other end of town. They were entrepreneurs along the likes of David Eccles. Thomas "Grandpa" Dee had developed several businesses and a number of other enterprises. His granddaughter, Elizabeth, had inherited a considerable amount of money. She married a man named Donnell Stewart and they had no children. They kind of adopted us as a result of me serving as bishop. I interviewed them for a mission and we became very close. We traveled with them extensively through Asia and Europe. Donnell sponsored me in the Rotary Club of Ogden in which I've been very active. 21 Elizabeth and Donnell gave millions of dollars to Weber and I was instrumental in setting up a number of trusts that focused money from that source into the university and community and have served on those foundations since. We've since poured millions of dollars into the community and another 50 million to Weber. In addition to the opportunity of raising money, I met a lot of great people. I was on a first name basis with Val Browning. He was a marvelous guy who was a million dollar donor several times over. J. Willard Marriott Sr. was another great guy. I went to school with his son, Bill Marriott, at the University of Utah. I went to Mr. Marriott's home in Maryland to pick up a check for a million dollars. I knocked on the door and he answered the door himself. It impressed me that there was no security. He answered the door in a sweater with a sleeve that was broken out in the elbow. He was very unpretentious. He and his wife were just salt of the Earth people. The Eccles' family was also great. I met people like David Kennedy who was the secretary to the treasury. I had dinner with Charleston Heston, Edgar Bergan, Shirley Chisom, John Wooden, Elliott Richardson, and Gordon Liddy. The students would have them come as speakers and would wisely ask someone to go along with them to make sure the proper protocol was maintained. All of those were marvelous opportunities. The one who stood out as the celebrity that I enjoyed the most was Neil Armstrong. During the schools' Centennial Celebration I had the opportunity to meet him at the airport and drove him to the Marriott Hotel in Ogden. Following his remarks at commencement, I drove him back to the airport and had a chance to visit with him one-on-one. 22 The period of time I served as Bishop from 1969 to 1972 was probably the most difficult period of time in our marriage. I think it was a result of a number of things. It was a transition period for me at work and as bishop. It was a tough time and I mention that because I think we outgrew it and boating helped. Carol had never had a great opportunity of camping like we had as kids, and we didn't have a lot in common. The outdoor adventures that I loved weren't of interest to her and it took a toll on us a little bit. She became very active in music, which I admit I resented. I wanted total time and effort and acceptance and everything that went along with it. The boating helped give us something in common. She turned into a heck of a boater. She could cook up meals and our boating experience really helped us heal. I loved Lake Powell and some of the fondest memories I'll ever have are the times we shared with the family. All of you here know that same love we had for Lake Powell and I've had my boat on Jackson Lake, Flaming Gorge and Willard Bay. Those were great times. We traveled extensively. We went to Asia we went to China, Japan, New Zealand, Australia, Bali, and the Philippines. Later, I went with the Rotary conventions to Holland, Germany, France, Luxemburg and all over England. We had a marvelous time with friends traveling to England. We traveled to Mexico where we all got the "Montezuma's Revenge." We had some tremendous experiences there. Tahiti had always been a dream because I remember as a kid, Rudean Allred had gone to Tahiti and the idea of going to Tahiti was always a dream. I ended up getting a couple of weeks there and Carol didn't want to go. 23 She lacked the desire to go, so I went with my son, Kevin. We had a great time there. I've had a few strange illnesses, I had a burst appendix and one time, I fell out of a tree and dislocated my shoulder. I had a kidney stone on Memorial Day that I will never forget, bypass surgery with five coronary bypasses and in Hawaii on the anniversary date of my open heart surgery ended up with an upper GI obstruction and had to go to the hospital at 2:00 in the morning after a 911 call by my wife. That was a challenge to be in a strange city and to get me there. We finally got that straightened out. I had cataract surgery and wear hearing aids that don't work. We've been pretty much through the gamut. I am also a cancer survivor, but that's another story. I want to conclude by telling two or three of the miracles in my life and I'm sure that there are many more. I don't think any of us are aware when angels protect us. I think of Mother saying, "Don't climb the cliffs at the waterfall," and we climbed the cliffs. I remember hitting a piece of dynamite with a hammer to see what would happen. I would jump off the chicken coops with a parachute made out of a bedspread and I can't imagine why I didn't break anything. I think when the roll is called up yonder; we can look back in time and see some of the things where it was only through divine intervention that we survived. I wanted to mention this and one other thing in closing. I always felt like I wasn't the best dad. I think back and I remember spanking one of the kids and I don't even remember what it was over, but I remember my hand print on the little bare bottom and it hurts me to even think about it now. It's bothered me and I 24 don't recall ever spanking the kids when I felt it wasn't justified. I really appreciated Boyd Packer's talk about grandparents. I think I am a better grandparent than a dad. I really love my grandkids, we only have six grandkids, but I love them with all my heart. Some of them have special needs and different challenges, but I made up my mind that I was going to be a good grandpa and other than times of discipline, I've really enjoyed them. I've been more of a companion and played with them when they were younger. They're growing up to be teenagers now and I'm having a tough time because I can't get down to that same level. I like to think that I was a good grandpa. I wanted to tell another story that was a foundation to my testimony. I was on my mission and I hadn't been out too long. I was a little discouraged and hadn't received a letter from home for a long while. I had been working hard with little success and we tracked down to a home one time and knocked on the door and a little Japanese woman came to the door and we introduced ourselves. She suddenly went hysterical and started to cry and weep inconsolably. The more we tried to find out what was wrong, the harder she wept. We had been invited into the home and sat down when she started to cry. It bothered us so much that we finally just had to get up and walk out. Later, I called Sister Okimoto, who was a member of the church and didn't live too far from this woman. I said, "We don't know what happened, we didn't want to offend her." Sister Okimoto went and visited her. She met us later and said, "This woman had been very concerned over which church to join and had just knelt down and prayed that she might know which church to join when there was a knock at the door and she opened it 25 up and there were two Mormon missionaries." That was really impressive to me. I was transferred out of that area and I don't know whether she ever did join the church or not. Another experience I had on my mission was a lesson that wasn't so much the testimony of seeing a miracle as much as a testimony of faith and unity. On New Year's Day, we were having a district president's convention and President Weig asked an old Hawaiian fisherman if we could help him with his Hukilau. It was a tradition for him to take his nets out and the fish he caught on New Year's Day was his tithing for the prior year. That was how he paid it. There were ten or twelve of us and it turned out to be a boisterous sea and the waves were very high. Some of the missionaries didn't want to go out, so Brother Kalili said, "If you don't have the unity and the faith that we could go out and succeed, I won't do it." We all went away and prayed about it and when we had the impression that we were all together we went back and told him that. He said, "If you are united, we will do it." We took the nets out and I was assigned to go out and keep the nets off the coral. As we were pulling the nets in, I began to see what I thought were sharks. As we got to shore, the net began to catch on some big boulders and I'd go down to see what they were and all of a sudden a big head came out. It was a huge sea turtle. The word got out that we caught a mess of fish that was too heavy to pull in. There was over 100 yards of netting extending out in the ocean. All of a sudden, the native villagers all came out and helped the elders pull the nets to shore. We had caught four sea turtles, which in that time were in high demand. The Japanese and the Chinese would eat them, 26 but the Hawaiians would not. Those represented a major source of income in addition to a ton of fish that we caught in those nets. We couldn't even pull them all in. It was a miracle in the understanding that unity and faith are inseparable and there was a lesson taught. That event has gone down in the history. If you go to any of the older people in Laie, they remember that event. All the missionaries were invited to the next Hukilau. I want to tell one other quick story. When we were living on Washington and 36th Street, Carol was teaching piano to a little girl named Mary Kimball who had a twin brother named Tommy. They lived across the street and they were an inactive L.D.S. family. Tommy came over to the house one day and said, "Mrs. Hurst, come quick. I just shot Mary." Carol went over to find the scene, which was horrific. There was little Mary lying in a pool of blood on the kitchen floor. Her brother had played with a rifle that the father had borrowed to go deer hunting. He chambered a round and accidently fired it. The bullet went through her wrist, struck her abdomen and disemboweled her. Pieces of her intestine and stomach were all over the kitchen wall. Mary was totally conscious laying there and said to Carol, "Mrs. Hurst, don't let me die. Please don't let me die." Carol called the ambulance and at first they went by and she thought, "They're not going to stop," but they backed up. They came in, picked up her insides, put them back in the cavity of her stomach, covered her with gauze and took her to the hospital. No one expected her to live. She did barely survive and about a week later her mother called and asked, "Would you come and give a prayer for Mary?" I called Carol's father and 27 we went up to the hospital where her mother went in first and came out crying. She said, "I don't know whether we should do this. She is in so much pain. I don't know whether I want to prolong it." I said, "Bernice, do you want her to live or not?" She said, "I want her to live." I said, "We will administer to her." So we administered to her and Eddis anointed her and I sealed the anointing. I can see the scene in my mind's eye as clear today as it was then with the blessing I delivered. Here was this little child in a semi-reclining position in the bed and there was no part of her body that didn't have a tube or a wire or something in it. She just looked like a specimen stuck on a board and she was unconscious. I gave her a blessing and felt prompted to give her a blessing of health and strength, but the unusual thing that I said was that she would not only live, but that she would be a mother. I finished saying that, sealed the blessing and as I walked out the door, I turned to Brother Watkins and said, "I don't know why I said that." Well, she lived and went through many operations. She had a plastic tummy and I remember I was working at Tanner's Store when the nurse came in and said, "Mary had her first BM." That was a sign that Mary was functioning and her body was working. I waited for another 12 years as she went on to survive. She was homecoming queen at Weber College and a beautiful little blonde lady. Later, she was married. One day, I picked up the paper and read that Mary had just delivered a child. She had three children. They later said that the odd thing about that wound was that it tore her stomach up, but it didn't touch her female organs. 28 In conclusion, all of those are factors in that I have been blessed all my life with the testimony that I know that God lives and Jesus is the Christ. I appreciate my membership in the church because I don't know that I would have had the temperament to join had I not been born in the gospel. I have been eternally grateful that I was privileged to be born into a family that taught me those gospel principles. I have enjoyed, loved, appreciate and testify and do so in the name of Jesus Christ whose resurrection and atonement I value and appreciate so much, and do so in His name, Amen.

Richard Richards ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 81p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Richard Richards Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 7 August 2012 13 August 2012 24 September 2012 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Richard Richards Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 7 August 2012 13 August 2012 24 September 2012 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Richards, Richard, an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 7 and 13 August 2012 and 24 September 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Richard Richards October 2012 1 Abstract: Richard "Dick" Richards, WSU alum, attorney, author and Republican Party National Committee Chairman (1981), grew up in Ogden, Utah and became involved with politics as a young man in high school. Richard is now retired and resides in South Ogden, Utah after spending most of his political career in Washington D.C. He sat down with Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University to discuss his life growing up in Ogden, his family, education, career and devotion to Weber State University. Richard endowed the "Richard Richards Institute of Politics and Ethics" at Weber State University which awards scholarships to high school students, and currently serves on the board. He and his wife, Annette Bott Richards, have five children. ROH: Today we are beginning an oral history with Richard Richards in his home in South Ogden, Utah. My name is Rebecca Ory Hernandez. Why don't we go ahead with you just stating your name and where this interview is being held? RR: My name is Richard Richards, most people call me Dick. I'm in my home at 5273 Daybreak in South Ogden. I'm prepared to discuss my early history with Rebecca and I look forward to it. ROH: When and where were you born? RR: I was born in Ogden at the old Dee Hospital on May 14, 1932. Nearly all my brothers and sisters were born at the same hospital and had the same doctor, but that was a long time ago. The hospital is now gone. ROH: Where did you grow up? 2 RR: I grew up in South Ogden. I lived in Ogden until I was about 12 years old, and then moved to South Ogden and lived here until I was drafted into the army in 1952. ROH: What part of South Ogden? RR: My first home in South Ogden was 3999 Norton Avenue. That's just next to 40th Street and 40th Street was the dividing line between Ogden and South Ogden. My father bought that home during the war. It was a 1,000 square foot home and I had seven sisters and a brother. So, 11 of us lived in this 1,000 square foot home. There were a couple of bedrooms in the basement that accommodated us, but 11 people in that small home. I can't even remember how we ate dinner. There's no way we could have eaten at the same time because the kitchen wasn't that big. I have no recollection of how exactly we operated in the home, but we lived there for several years. ROH: Where did you fall in the family line-up of children? RR: My brother was the oldest child and I was next to him about a year and a half later. All seven girls came after me. Four of them were born in the month of May one year apart, so the family grew rapidly and it was all girls after my brother and me. ROH: I can't imagine having that many children under one roof. RR: I don't know how we did it. I really don't. I had one sister that was really fastidious and she needed the bathroom for a long time. We agreed that she could have 3 the bathroom for an hour starting at six o'clock in the morning. After that the family had it. ROH: Are all of your siblings still around? RR: One of them passed away. That's the one I was talking about. All of the others are scattered around from California, Idaho, Oregon and I have two sisters living in the Ogden area. ROH: Do you stay in touch with them? RR: We have family reunions. We just had one at Park City in July. We had 123 family members there. We've been doing this for about 20 years and we have not had one death in the family or one child born with severe disabilities out of all 153 of us. We have been a blessed group. We have MBA's, Ph.D's, and a couple of doctors. We've got some pretty good children and grandchildren. My father came from the coal mining camps of Utah when he was in the tenth grade. He didn't graduate from high school. He was tired of living in the coal mines and said, "I'm not going to be a miner, I'm getting out of here." He went up to Salt Lake and got a job helping a sign painting company called Bird and Jex Company. Later on, he decided he didn't want to work for them and he set up his own company here in Ogden. His first shop was no bigger than this living room, but he's the guy that brought us out of the coal mines. ROH: What was the name of the sign shop? 4 RR: Richards Sign Company. That was a long time ago, but that business still carries the name. It's gone through three generations. My father had a stroke many years ago and as a result he couldn't work so he sold his business to a guy by the name of Derek Warner. He ran it for some period of time, then he retired and gave it to his son. His son retired and now it's the next generation working the Richards Sign Company. The company was so well respected that no matter who owned it, they wanted to keep the name. It's still there on Grand Avenue and a bustling business, but it's different. They don't even have a paint brush down there anymore because everything is done by computer. When my dad sold it, we did it all by hand. ROH: Did you learn how to paint signs as well? RR: I did and I earned my living painting signs while I was in law school. Even after I graduated and I was practicing law, the income was so meager that at night I painted signs to make some money to take care of my family. I always hoped that potential clients didn't see me painting signs or they'd wonder about my ability as a lawyer. ROH: That's interesting. What about your mother? RR: My mother lived in Ogden. She met my father in a church activity and her father was a railroader and they lived down on Grant Avenue. My mother did graduate from high school and I don't know if she worked before they were married. ROH: Do you recall which high school she graduated from? 5 RR: It would have been Ogden High School because that's the only one there was. ROH: Okay. They met at a church activity, but can you be more specific? RR: Apparently, it was a Golden Green Ball, a dance of some kind where my father met my mother or shortly after because they participated in the dance and won a prize. A great uncle of mine introduced them. AR: What I understand is that she had caught his eye and she was walking along the street and he pulled over and said, "Could I have a date?" She said, "Yes, if you'll go to church with me." They did enter a contest with the Golden Green Ball and they won. ROH: Did you inherit their love of dancing? RR: No. I don't' dance. ROH: I'm surprised. I thought all politicians liked to dance. AR: He's got a son that dances. ROH: What were some of the things you did as a young person? RR: Before we moved out to South Ogden, I lived on Monroe and we played Kick-the- Can and all kinds of games in the streets. We didn't have television of course. We didn't pay too much attention to radio so we played outside. We played with each other. ROH: Where did you go to school? 6 RR: I went to school first at Quincy for the first grade and so on. Later on, I went to Madison. I was at Madison for a while, then my family went to South Ogden and I went to Riverdale Junior High School. After Riverdale I went to Weber High School. ROH: So you lived on Monroe for a little while? RR: Yes on 26th and Monroe. The family lived there, but as the family grew and more kids were born in the family we had to find a bigger place and my dad bought a house in South Ogden during the war for about $5,000. The house we lived in on Monroe is now a little parking lot for a neighbor. There's nothing there, but it was a very small yard and very small house. ROH: Are there any memories that you have from being at Quincy or Madison that you'd like to share? RR: Not at Qunicy, but when I moved to Madison, I was the newcomer and they had to see whether I was tough enough to be in that environment. They picked fights with me and forced me to fight. I wasn't going to fight. Kids carried me over to the park across the street and I was to fight with a guy and I beat him up, so I was successful there. Then, I had to try one more and I got in a fist fight during art class. The teacher came down, banged our heads together and stopped us. I punched the guy in the nose and his nose was bleeding. I was crying and I didn't want to fight. The teacher came down and knocked our heads together. The guy I was fighting hauled off and punched her and knocked her down. He was expelled from school. They didn't do anything to me because they knew I didn't 7 want to fight with this guy and that was apparent. He was kind of a bully and it was good. I passed the test fighting those two guys and from then on I was accepted. ROH: I just can't imagine that. Annette said she had something she wanted to share. AR: An interesting thing, I was at Quincy School and I was standing over by the water fountain. His brother, Jim, was a year older than me and Dick was a year younger than me. I remember thinking, "Oh, that's Jimmy Richard's little brother." He was running around. That was our first meeting and then he went to Madison and I continued on at Quincy. ROH: Okay. Were there any favorite subjects that stood out to you at that time as a young boy? RR: I liked the art classes, but we didn't have many of them until I went to high school. I was not a good student. I was a troublemaker and I just got by as far as the academics were concerned. There was always trouble, and a lot of it was my fault. I remember when I went to Riverdale Junior High School we rode the bus from South Ogden out to Riverdale and there was a kid in the neighborhood by the name of Tommy James. Tommy crowded in front of us in line for the bus. As I walked past him he took a seat up front and I hauled off and smacked him in the back of the head. When we got to Riverdale I chased him down and picked a fight with him and he just beat the hell out of me. That was the only time I was ever really beat up. He just kept pounding me, the big tall guy with long arms and I would be swinging at him and I'd be missing him by about four of five inches. 8 Incidentally, the principal came down and grabbed us and took us up to the principal's office. He said he was going to give us the board of education. He had a board that he used to paddle kids with and the board had holes in it so he could get a good swift whack. He asked what happened and I owned up. I said, "I picked the fight, it's my fault." I guess that impressed him and he said, "Well, get going and get back to class and I don't want any more of this." ROH: In junior high, Did you have any particular subject that you were fond of? RR: No, I was just getting by doing what I could do. ROH: Being a kid. RR: We rode the bus and I always rose a rumpus on the bus, so the driver kicked me out and said, "You're going to walk home." I said, "Okay." Instead of walking home I went around to the back of the bus and climbed in the window on the side he couldn't see. I rode in the bus with him until we got to Ogden and we got to the bus stop. I jumped out the window and ran up front and said, "Haha Clink, I beat you." He felt bad that he was going to make me walk and before he left he said, "Hey where's the Richards kid, I was only joking I wasn't going to make him walk." I played a joke on Clink. Incidentally, I've had an occasion to work with the Fernilius' again in my business. When we get to that I'll tell you. ROH: You went to Weber High. Tell me about that experience. RR: Well, I shaped up. ROH: Did your parents have a car growing up? 9 RR: Yes. In fact, I remember when I was six years old my brother and I had our tonsils taken out. We went to the doctor's office in the old First Security Bank building and had our tonsils removed. My father picked us up in his brand new Pontiac car. He paid $600 and got a beautiful blue Pontiac car. That's the first car I can remember my folks had. ROH: When you were young, do you remember where you went shopping for new supplies and clothes and things like that? RR: As a kid, I didn't do that. I don't remember that. As I grew up a little bit I remember being in town because I would go to the paramount theater that had the Popeye club. On Saturdays, they'd have Popeye and a series of the Lone Ranger or something and I remember going to town for that. Other than that, I don't remember going to town. ROH: In town are you talking about Ogden? RR: Yes, I'm still talking about Ogden. These were younger years. ROH: Is this the 25th Street area? RR: Yes. Actually there were several theaters in town at that time. There was an Orpheum, a Colonial, Lyseum, The Egyptian, and the Paramount. That's five theaters. Most of the kids went to the Paramount because that had the Popeye Club and the series. Movies cost about a dime and I would work around the yard and I'd get a dime or 25 cents and I was able to go to the movies. ROH: Okay, so we're going to go back to high school now. 10 RR: Before high school, let me talk about Riverdale Junior High School because that was really a turning point for me. That was a rough school. When I went there I was in the 7th and 8th grades and we were rough on teachers there. We drove a couple of teachers out of the room crying. There were several of us that were involved in this kind of stuff. ROH: How did you do that? RR: Just by not paying attention or throwing spit balls or whatever. We drove a couple of substitute teachers out of there. We were upstairs in a room that was called Idaho because it was kind of shaped like Idaho. My friend and I were in the back of the room raising the devil and there were two kids in the middle of the room that were raising Cain and the teacher came in and he just stood there with his arms folded for a few minutes waiting for everybody to shut up. They didn't shut up so he walked down the aisle and gave each of these kids a karate chop on the side of the head and whacked them in the kidney and knocked both of them out. Both of the kids fell with their faces on the desk and my friends and I shut up. That cured us. He really knocked the two kids out. One of the kids' families sued him because when he hit him in the kidneys he bruised him. This teacher didn't say anything and I don't know what happened to him, but I didn't see him again. That was sort of a turning point for a lot of us. After I left junior high school and went to Weber I shaped up. It was a 180 degree change for me. ROH: How many kids were in your class in junior high? RR: I would say there were 20 or something like that. 11 ROH: That was a good-sized class. Is there anything else from junior high that you can recall? What was your favorite part about being in school? RR: Recess. I remember I was supposed to be in arithmetic class, but before the class started I went down to the shop. There was nobody in there except a few kids. The teacher wasn't there and I had never had any experience with some of these tools like the buzz saw. I picked up a chunk of wood and I was going to cut it, but I put it in the wrong way in the saw. It threw the wood and knocked the window out of the class. It would have killed a kid if it hit him. I didn't know what I was doing. I got out of there and sneaked into my arithmetic class by crawling on my hands and knees to the desk so the teacher wouldn't see me coming in. It was a funny school, I had a friend called Toshi Shiba and he went around the junior high school with a water gun and he would shoot the light bulbs and it would pop them. In those days they didn't have a chandelier glass over them, they just had a globe. My friend went around shooting those things and the shop teacher caught him and grabbed him and shook him up and said, "I never did like you Japs anyway." Nothing ever happened as a result of that, but today that would be a disaster. ROH: It sounds like you were a bit precocious. RR: I was not a good little boy. I never did anything really bad, but I did a lot of things that were border line. ROH: Did your parents ever get called to school? 12 RR: No, and I never told them when I had a couple of teachers assault me in junior high school. One guy was a music teacher and he was in the auditorium with the music class and a kid in that class had stolen my baseball mitt. I spotted it because it had my name on it. He had used a leather puncher to punch holes in it so that my name would not be visible, but I saw it anyway. I went into the class and confronted the kid about the mitt. The teacher said, "You get out of here." I said, "I'm not going until I get my mitt." He came down and grabbed me by the shirt and took me out in the hall and he was slapping me on the side of the face front-hand and back-hand. He hit me several times, but I never told my parents about that. You know, that just happened. It was not uncommon in the schools for a teacher to whack a kid. ROH: That is true. Moving on to high school at Weber High, where was Weber High? RR: Weber High School was on 12th and Washington Blvd. We had to take a bus from home to school. When I got into high school I really settled down. It was a major change in my life. I was elected sophomore class president when I went out there. Right out of this junior high school environment to the high school and we had kids from other junior high schools come in from Eden and Huntsville. I don't know the circumstances, but I was elected sophomore class president. ROH: You don't recall running for president? RR: No, I don't recall any of that except that I was elected and I was in a sign painting class and I painted some signs for sophomore assemblies. I misspelled the word "sophomore." They said, "It's got an "o" in it." 13 ROH: You said you got more serious in high school. What were your academics like? RR: I was a good student. It was the beginning of a new life for me. AR: One of the teachers said that Dick was the worst and best student that she ever had. ROH: Did you go to high school together? AR: No, I went to Ogden High School. ROH: Did you have a favorite subject in high school? RR: Yes, I liked the debate class and I participated in the debates and extemporaneous competitions and I did well. So, I did a lot of it. It's interesting because the debate teacher at Weber High School was the same principal that dragged me up to the principal's office when I was at Riverdale. ROH: Is that right? He moved from the other school to that school. He must have had some kind of impact on you. Who were your friends in high school? RR: I had several that lived out here in South Ogden like, George Palmer, Carl Hassel and Bud Reed. I had a lot of friends. We did things in a group out here. Nobody played alone. ROH: What were some of the things you were involved in other than debate? Were you involved in any clubs or activities? RR: No, because I worked after school. Instead of taking the school bus, I would take the city bus and go from 12th Street down to my dad's shop and work after 14 school. I didn't have any time for any of the athletics. I did win the intramural boxing championship for my weight when I was in high school. I didn't play football, basketball, or baseball or anything. Those intramurals took place within the classroom for the most part. ROH: So you continued to fight in high school. You got into boxing? RR: Not a lot, but we had an intramurals program in boxing and I won that in my class. I boxed with the kids that were in the other class. I also wrestled. I met another kid in the other class wrestling, I got down on the mat like you're supposed to and he was over me and the referee said, "Go!" He pinned me so fast I didn't even know what I was doing. I was out of that competition in 15 seconds, just as long as it took for the referee to count me out. This kid was a skinny kid with a glass eye and he went on to win the state championship in his weight a couple of years. He was a very good wrestler. I think his name was Garcia. ROH: So, if you ran for sophomore class president, you were interested in politics at that time. RR: Yes, and that is one of the things that I gravitated toward was the speech class and the debate and that sort of thing. About that time I had developed my philosophy as a Republican. One of my debate partners was a democrat, one that I called the yellow dog democrat. He would rather vote for a yellow dog than a Republican and that's still his philosophy. My father talked politics to us at the dinner table. He talked about a conservative writer at that time called Westbrook 15 Pegler. Pegler was a conservative and he hated the Roosevelts. Most of his column was anti-Franklin and Eleanor and my dad talked about that. There were also some things happening in our life that got me to be a conservative. During that time when we were growing up, we had a coal furnace. The coal man would come to your house, open the coal chute and empty the coal out in the basement. John L. Lewis was the head of the coal miners' union and he called a strike. When he called a strike, we couldn't get coal and everybody complained about that. Even my grandmother and my father complained about it. My father said, "I'm not going to be at the mercy of John L Lewis," and he changed the coal furnace to a gas furnace. John L. Lewis was really big at that time. ROH: When was this? RR: I would say in the early 1940's. Coal mining was a big deal. My grandfather was a coal miner and he still lived down in Carbon County. Coal miners liked John L. Lewis because he got the wages up. He forced people to pay more and if they weren't willing to do that he would call a strike and limit the coal production. My dad talked about that a lot at the dinner table and that had an influence on me. ROH: Who was your friend that was the person who would vote for anyone but a Republican? RR: Jerry Hatch. He was my debate partner. His dad was in the state legislator as a democrat. Jerry always was a democrat. He never changed. He is still a democrat. 16 ROH: When you were in high school did you realize that you wanted to go to college at that point? RR: Yes. In fact, I wanted to be a lawyer at that time and when I wrote my name on the book just to identify it as my book I would write, "Richard Richards Esquire." AR: I've got a page out of something when he was the student of the year and he tells what he wants to do in the future. RR: When I was a senior in high school, I was chosen to give the Valedictory speech. I was not the Valedictorian, but I was chosen to give that speech at the graduation. ROH: So you ran for president and got interested in debate, how did that come about? Were you listening to the radio at that point or did you hear other people speak that influenced you? RR: We listened to the radio and read the newspaper. We always had newspapers and I even take four newspapers here now. I spend a couple hours every day reading the Wall Street Journal and the Investor's Business Daily, The Standard, and Deseret News. ROH: That's incredible. Did your dad take a lot of newspapers too at your house? RR: I don't know how many he took, but I know we took some. ROH: I was just trying to find out where the influence of the debate would have come from because you were interested in both battling physically and verbally so I find that fascinating. 17 RR: Well, I think the word "debate" means to "beat down." ROH: Did you have teachers that inspired you in high school? RR: My debate teacher was the principal out at Riverdale that banged my head. He was my coach all the way through. ROH: You were in school and you were working so give me an idea of your schedule. RR: I would go to school and after school at 3:30 p.m. I would go to my dad's shop and work for a couple of hours and go home. I always worked on Saturdays. My dad probably was the greatest influence on me of anybody because he always said, "I'm not going to give you money, but I'll give you a job. You can work for it and you can have the money." That's the way he was. ROH: So you were student of the year in your high school. RR: Well I don't know if that's what they called it, but maybe they did. ROH: Yes, we will get a copy of this. I'm looking at a photograph that says, "The typical boy graduate is Dick Richards, he's only 5'8" but he has short brown hair and warm brown eyes. He likes school this year but in the past years he skipped school every chance he got. Now he's sorry he's leaving." Is this college or high school? RR: That's high school. ROH: Do you remember what you talked about in your speech? 18 RR: I don't think I have a copy of that speech, but I have a copy of my college speech when I spoke at graduation there. ROH: You were public speaking at a young age. We're going to finish up talking about high school years and move on to college. When you graduated from high school, you wrote the commencement speech. What did you do after high school? RR: Obviously, during the summer I worked for my dad. In the Fall I enrolled at Weber Junior College. Weber Junior College at that time was on 25th Street at about Monroe and Madison. There were about four buildings there and one of them is still there— it's the Deseret Gym building. The other buildings are gone. It was a very small school. Interestingly enough, the president of that school was Dr. Henry Aldus Dickson. He knew an awful lot of the kids by name. We were all very friendly with him. He took a liking to me and I'm not sure why, but he said to me one time, "Dick, are you having a little trouble raising money to go to school?" I said, "Yeah, I'm working but I don't have the money yet." He said, "Well, you drop in my office and see the secretary and she'll give you a scholarship." So I walked in the office and they gave me a twenty-five dollar scholarship. That was a full quarter's tuition. I actually have a copy of that scholarship. ROH: That's fantastic. RR: He liked me and he wanted to help me out. I guess he knew I came from a family of a lot of kids. All of my siblings were still at home. ROH: Did your brother ahead of you go to college? 19 RR: I don't remember. I guess he went to college before me, but I didn't have a lot of relationship with my brother at that time. He was a year and a half older than me and he had different friends. We did some things together, but mostly we each had our own friends. ROH: What did you study at Weber College? RR: I studied debate, philosophy, political science, and economics. I did a lot of those subjects, I didn't do any basket weaving and that stuff. No political correctness at that time. I got enough credits in what I studied in history, philosophy and economics that I was able to transfer them to law school without having a bachelor's degree. When I applied to law school they said, "Well you haven't got a bachelor's degree, you can't come here with what you've got." I said, "Look at the catalog." The catalog said, "153 acceptable hours," or something and I had them. I said, "There they are." He said, "Well, I guess you're right." They enrolled me in law school without having a degree from Weber. ROH: Where was that? RR: University of Utah law school. ROH: How old were you when you started law school? RR: I started law school after I'd been in the army and returned, so there's a gap there. ROH: Did you go into the army after Weber? 20 RR: In August of 1952, I was drafted. The Korean War was on and we were all drafted. It was kind of interesting at that time because there was a lady by the name of Agnus Christe who was the head of the selective service office who really resented Mormon kids going on missions and not going in the army. So, the day you turned 18 you got a draft notice. You couldn't go on a mission. ROH: Did you have any other friends that you were in the army with at that time? RR: I was drafted ahead of my friends for some reason by a matter of a few months. I was drafted with one kid from Ogden by the name of Jim Pollus and we went to basic training together. I went on to leadership and OCS and he did not. He's passed away since. My friends I had here in South Ogden came to Fort Ord after several months that I had already been there so I was ahead of them in the army. ROH: Well, we just kind of skimmed over Weber College, so the next time we meet we'll talk about Weber College, the Army, and Law School. Thank you very much for sharing your young years with me and we will continue next time. This is the end of the interview on August 7, 2012. Thank you. RR: You're Welcome. ROH: Today is Monday, August 13, 2012. We are in the home of Richard Richards, who goes by Dick. I am Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University and we are going to continue his oral history. We will pick up with your university years from where we left off last week. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your time in law school? 21 RR: After I came home from the Army, I decided to go to law school. I had done some other things in the meantime, but when I found out I was going to go to law school I needed some more credit hours. I went back to Weber and picked up some more hours in political science, history, and philosophy. I was married and had two children. I had to work because I had to make a living, so I worked for my father part-time and painted signs. I worked in Ogden for my dad about 20 hours a week and went to law school. That was an hour a day going down and an hour a day going back. That didn't leave me a lot of time for studying. I really didn't study very hard in law school, but I studied all day Sunday and started at 5:00 a.m. It was a tough grind. I decided it ought to be easier if I lived in Salt Lake because I wouldn't have to commute. So, I got a job with the state liquor commission. It was a political job. Governor Clyde was the governor and I think Laurence Burton was his assistant at that time. Anyway, I got a job with the liquor commission selling liquor out on 23rd South and 13th East. They paid $1.65 an hour and that wasn't enough for me to make a living so I decided even though I'm going to live in Salt Lake I better commute to Ogden to work because I could make $2.50 an hour painting signs. I moved to Salt Lake to the student housing. It was called "Stadium Village." That's where the stadium is now. Rent was $30.00 a month so it was livable for a student. While I was in law school, I was active with the Young Republicans and I was asked to become the Young Republicans state chairman. I didn't know about that because it takes time and doesn't pay so I thought I'd 22 better check with the Dean. He said, "I think you could be of help to us so you go ahead and take that job." I took it and the interesting thing is, later on when the law school was trying to get an appropriation from the state legislature to build a new law school. Jerry Hanson and I invited his grandfather who was a leader in the state legislature to come to the law school and see what kind of shabby condition it was in. He visited the law school and said, "Boy, this is bad." Our main classroom in the law school was a row of tables about 24 inches deep and about six or eight feet long and they were covered with Masonite. They were really old-fashioned. The chairs were all separate and it was a noisy place. When they saw that they said, "Let's make an appropriation for a new law school." They usually invited the governor to come speak on "Law Day" which was the first of May. The assistant dean said, "The governor doesn't like lawyers, he won't come here." I was up to the governor's office talking to Laurence and I asked, "Would the governor like to go up to the University of Utah law school and speak on May Day?" He said, "Sure, we'd love to do that, but we haven't had an invitation." I asked, "Will you come if you get an invitation?" They said, "Yes." I drove back to the law school and went in the dean's office and said, "The governor would like to come if you'll give him and invitation. You type one up and I'll hand carry it to him." He was really pleased that we could get the governor there. The assistant dean that said the governor wouldn't come was embarrassed. ROH: Who was the governor at the time? 23 RR: George Dewey Clyde. The dean of the law school was Dean Diksra. He was a good dean. The assistant was a fellow by the name of Emory. Emory was a democrat and he didn't want the governor up there anyway. ROH: It must have been really good for the law school. RR: These were big helps in getting a new law school. Anyway, I hadn't graduated because I was seven hours short for graduation. I did it in two years. I didn't have time to go for three years. I was married with kids and didn't have time for that. I took extra credit and went through the summers. A couple of the fellows were in the same plight so we asked if we could take the Bar early with the preceding class. They agreed to let us take it. We took the Bar and I passed the Bar before I graduated. I had to go back to pick up seven more hours. Needless to say, I wasn't a very diligent student after having passed the Bar already. They changed the system after that. From then on you had to have a degree. They won't let you take the Bar until you've completed law school. We ruined that for the next-comers. ROH: Did you specialize in anything in law school? RR: No, I just graduated. I was not at the top of my class. I was in the top third of the class, but I did not strive to be number one. I didn't have time to study and do all that because I was working. In fact, working 20 hours was against the rules. They said if you go to law school you can't work 20 hours because you wouldn't be able to keep up. They tested me when they found out I was traveling to Ogden, but I did okay and that all worked out. After I got out of law school, I got a 24 job with the Clayton and Gould law firm in Ogden. Since they were both prosecutors I couldn't do any criminal work. If you can't do criminal work as a young lawyer, you're never going to do any trial work. I said, "I want to get courtroom practice so I'm going to quit." I quit and went on my own. I remember my first month I did not make one dime practicing law. The second month I made $50. It was a struggle. By the end of the year I was making pretty good money, but our total was $6,000 a year my first year. ROH: Do you remember your first case? RR: Yes. I remember my first major cases anyway. I went to the judges and said, "I want to try lawsuits. Give me your guys in jail who don't have any money and can't bail out and I'll represent them for free." Between the judges they gave me ten felons and they were spread out over about a year's time. I got eight acquittals out of the ten. Immediately, I had a lot of criminal clients. They would ask, "Who's your attorney?" They would give them my name and that generated a lot of business for me. I got tired of the criminal stuff, but it was a great experience to try the cases. The first murder case I had was a fellow that came into town on a Greyhound bus, got out of the bus station, walked across the street to the Friendly Tavern, pulled out a pistol and said, "So you're the "blankety-blank"?" He shot a guy about seven times. That was Joe Edgington. He killed him right on the spot. He didn't even know him and the guy was completely nuts. He thought he was somebody else. He casually walked across the street toward the police 25 station. Several witnesses saw him throw the gun in the bushes and keep on walking and they arrested him. L.G. Bingham and I were assigned to defend him pro bono and that was my first major criminal case. L.G. Bingham, in my opinion, was the smartest lawyer in town. He was a good thinker, but he was not a real studious guy and he didn't spend a lot of time preparing the case. Sometimes he would go into court without any defense in mind. He'd find a defense as the prosecutors put on their case. He won a lot of cases. He was very talented in doing that. He and I defended this guy and ended up pleading "not guilty" by reason of insanity. That stuck and he went to a mental institution. I haven't heard anything from him since. That was my first case. L.G. Bingham and I defended another case of a couple of fellows that murdered a man on North Ogden Divide. Maybe you read about it. They picked up a sailor from Salt Lake and took him up to Ogden. They'd been drinking and they thought he had money so they took him up to rob him. The guy resisted and they hit him. They took off all his clothes, threw him in the car and left the guy naked. He was walking down the highway naked and finally fell over the side and froze to death. They were looking through his clothes because they thought he had some money in it. They looked through his shirt and no money in his shirt and threw it out the window as they traveled down the canyon. There was no money in the pants, so they threw the pants out along with the shoes and socks. His clothes were strewn down the canyon for a half a mile and nobody really understood what it was all about. One of the boys called the police and gave himself up. They arrested the other guy a few days later. Ray defended one of 26 them and I defended the other one. They got off with a voluntary manslaughter and two years in prison. They were young guys, drinking and doing stupid stuff and ended up killing a man. I tried cases from 1961 until 1980 when I went to Washington to work full-time with Ronald Reagan. I did spend some time in the early 1960's in Washington with Laurence Burton. That was for two years. I was there at the time that John Kennedy was killed and the Senator of Texas and John F. Kennedy's Vice President, Lyndon Johnson, became the president. ROH: How did it come about that you ended up moving to Washington? RR: Laurence Burton asked me to help him on his campaign. I was one of two major campaign managers on his campaign for congress and he won. He invited me to come back to Washington. I went back there as his legislative assistant and after a year I was made his administrative assistant. Dr. Aldus Dickson, who was a good friend of mine as I indicated earlier said, "Dick, do not stay there more than two years. Laurence is going to ask you to stay, but don't do it." ROH: Why not? RR: He said, "If you do you'll get caught up as a professional staffer in Washington and you'll never develop a career of you own." The pay is good and it's an exciting thing if you're a staffer to a senator and they have big issues. I followed his advice and I came home. ROH: When did you come home? 27 RR: I came home in 1964. I was here when the election was held and Barry Goldwater was soundly defeated. I decided I wanted to run for party chairman. I'd been Young Republican chairman, so I ran for party chairman and won overwhelmingly. The reason I did is because while I was working for Laurence I traveled to all of the counties in the state when they held their county convention. Those were the guys that were going to be delegates to the state convention. When I met them on the county level and they came to the state, they at least knew who I was. I ran against a guy from Salt Lake that should have won. He had a lot of money, was a prominent business guy, and kind of a moderate fellow, but I beat him about six or seven to one. Afterward he said, "I knew you were going to beat me, but I didn't think you were going to stomp me into the ground." He was a good sport. I was the party chairman for two years. In 1966, the state of Utah turned from a Democratic state to a Republican state. People say this has always been a Republican state. However, they were heavily Democratic all over. All of the counties were controlled by Democratic county commissioners. In Weber County, prior to that time, only one Republican had been elected to county office for 50 years. That was Sherriff Mac Wade. This county was so strongly Democrat that a Republican may as well not even get on the ballot. We turned that around in 1966 and won control of the legislature, both the House and the Senate, by a vast majority. I think there were only five Democrats in the Senate when we got to it. There were only ten in the House. In fact, we elected too many. It was a bad deal to have that many Republicans and 28 so little opposition. That gradually faded out. That was one of the most exciting elections of my life because it was such a wonderful victory. I was re-elected party chairman in 1968. I had a good record and got a call from the Republican National Committee in Washington. The chairman of the Republican National Committee asked me if I'd come back and interview for a job working for the National Committee. I went back and I remember the feeling. I got out of my hotel and got that stinky, humid Washington air and I said to myself, "Dick, what in the hell are you doing here? Turn around and go home." I went to the interview with the deputy chairman and the chairman of the committee at that time, Rogers Morton. They offered me a job and I took it. I became the head of party development. After I did that for a while, I was promoted to the political director of the National Committee. I brought my family back and we lived in Maryland. We also lived in Virginia down by the Pentagon and had some nice experiences. We went to the grave site ceremony of John Kennedy when he was taken to Arlington National Cemetery. Later, at the top of the cemetery, they put a forever memorial for John Kennedy. Laurence and the other congressman from Utah, Sherm Lloyd, were there. Somehow or another we got on the parade route out to the cemetery. The soldiers and the Marines were lined up all the way and we had no way to get off. Laurence was joking and said, "Don't throw out any beer cans." We went up past the soldiers and when we got to the cemetery, the guy that was in charge told us we had to leave. We didn't want to after all that effort, so we sneaked into the press section and got kicked out of the press section too. We 29 went up the road and nobody paid attention to us there, but everybody including the Kennedys came up that road. The Carsons and the Kennedys were there. The Emperor of Ethiopia and Charles Degall came in. We were almost within touching distance of each of them. It was really kind of interesting to see that. In part of the ceremony they had the Irish Guard do a drill procedure and when they were through they marched out. As they marched out me and this kid marched in where they had been and we ended up right in front of the congressman. Laurence Burton said, "Hey Dick, look who's standing behind you." I looked behind me and there was Adlai Stevenson, who was the ambassador, and all these big-shots. We stood directly across from the grave site where the Kennedy casket was standing. The Kennedys were all on the other side. I was not even 20 feet away from Jacqueline Kennedy and her kids when all of this happened. In fact, we had a chance to walk by the casket. That was a good experience. Then, of course, Lyndon Johnson became the president and in 1964 he forced the passage of the Civil Rights Act that Kennedy could not get done. Kennedy didn't have the horsepower in the Senate to get it done. The House passed it, that wasn't a big problem, but it was the Senate that didn't want to pass it. They filibustered and did everything they could to avoid passing it. Lyndon Johnson just beat them up and on the 4th of July, they passed the Civil Rights Act. ROH: What was that like living in Washington when that happened? 30 RR: That was an exciting time. They had Martin Luther King Jr. speak at the Lincoln Memorial. There were hundreds of thousands of people there. I was at the Capitol and we talked about going down, but we figured it wasn't a good thing to do to go clear down there and get involved in that crowd. We were also there at the time the Blacks rioted on 14th street and burned a lot of the buildings. That was pretty close to the same time Martin Luther King Jr. gave his historic speech at the Lincoln Memorial. That was a big event at that time. It was an exciting time and an exciting point in history. ROH: Do you remember having conversations with your family about those events in the evenings when you were home with them? RR: My kids went with me when we saw the Kennedy ceremony. I explained that to them and when we got home and they were excited about it. They liked John Kennedy, they though he was a wonderful fellow. They got to do things that other kids don't get to do. They got to go to the White House, the Capitol building, Williamsburg and Jamestown. We went down to Jamestown and that was one of the great experiences where we saw replicas of those three little boats that brought the pilgrims here in 1607 and built the first permanent settlement in America. They gave us the history about how most of them starved to death or were killed by the Indians or by something else. There were very few survivors. That was a real eye-opener to us about early history. We got up to the Baltimore Harbor where Frances Scott Key saw the Star Spangled Banner and we saw the battlefield of the fight between the British and 31 the Americans on the Potomac River. Of course, the British captured Washington and they burned down a lot of things. They tried to burn down the White House and burned down a lot of it. They torched the various places in the Capitol and you can still see where the smoke was where they had gone with their torches. That was a great experience for my kids. They all became far more interested in American government. ROH: You've written a lot about your time in Washington in your book, so I won't repeat a lot of that, but tell me a little bit about how you felt about your career at that time. You had some significant leaps and bounds from Ogden to Washington at that point. RR: Reagan was anticipated to be a candidate for president in 1968. The convention was held in Miami Beach and Nixon, George Romney, and Rockefeller were candidates. Nixon was the clear leader. I was the state party chairman at that time. I knew the Nixon people and they knew me. They talked to me many times about helping on the Nixon campaign and I said, "Well, I'm the chairman of the party so I can't do that." We invited Ronald Reagan to come to our convention and the Nixon people were just livid after Reagan spoke. We only had about 14 national delegates at that time. This was the year we picked our delegates to go to the national convention. Nixon was clearly the favorite, although George Romney had some friends here because of his Mormon ties and ties to Utah. A guy from Cutbank, Montana who was a close associate of Reagan and a guy I knew as a party chairman said, "Dick, how would you like to have Ronald 32 Reagan be the keynote speaker at your convention, he'll do it for free." I said, "Hey, great. We want him." He came and Annette and I met him in the old Hotel Utah the night before he spoke. That was the first time we met Ronald Reagan. Annette was enamored because he was a movie star, and I was enamored because he was a politician. Anyway, he spoke the next day and he just mesmerized our delegation. Every one of them would have turned around and voted for him against Nixon if he ended up being our candidate. As we got down to Miami Beach, Nixon was nominated and Reagan withdrew his name, but George Romney stayed in and I was given the opportunity to second the nomination of George Romney for president back in Miami Beach. That was a high point for me. Nixon won of course. After he won the convention delegates, they hired me to do some ground work as a field man for Nixon in about 8 Western Rocky Mountain states. I had Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Hawaii, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana and Arizona. I organized the ground campaign and it is interesting because the thing that attracted me to the National Party Leaders to begin with was my organizational technique for recruiting people to go door-to-door. We called it the neighbors program. I was called back to New York after Nixon was nominated to meet with John Mitchell who was in charge of the campaign. They asked me about this program that I had in mind and Mitchell liked it, but some of his aides didn't like it and they started to argue with me. Mitchell sat there and just smoked his pipe and never said a word during my presentation. When it was all done, they started asking, "How do you know this is going to work?" I said, "We've done 33 it, we know how this thing works, you don't have to worry about that." Mitchell said, "We're going to do it. I like it. Richards, we'd like you to come to work full-time for us." I said, "I can't do it because I'm the party chairman out in Utah, but I know somebody who can do that program for you." They wanted to do it in Oregon first and he was running a primary against Rockefeller. Oregon was a liberal state and Nixon's people said, "We're not even going to go there, it's just a waste of time." So they didn't go there, but they sent my friend Alan Peterson, who was the guy that I recommended to do this. Peterson was an intern to me when I was party chairman in Utah. He knew my program, so they hired him to run the program and Nixon won. Nixon had never been there and Rockefeller had been there three times. Rockefeller's slogan was, "He cared enough to come." Everybody expected Rockefeller to win, but Nixon did win. Nixon said, "That's my secret weapon. I want to do that." Peterson was hired to run this program all over the country and did a great job with it. After the Nixon campaign, the next effort I got involved with was when Ronald Reagan was running against Gerald Ford. Nixon left, Ford became the president and Ford wanted to run. These same people that brought me back to Washington all thought I would be for Ford and wanted me to be involved in his Ford campaign. They asked me to get involved and I said, "I can't do that. I'm for the other guy." They said, "You're for Ronald Reagan? You can't be against the seated president. You're a party chairman and you're against our incumbent president?" In fact, the owner of Zion's Bank in the state of Utah, Roy Simmons, 34 met me at the airport and said, "Dick, that's crazy. You're going to go for that "class B" act against the president." ROH: Why was that? Why were you so pro-Reagan? RR: I just really liked the guy. I saw something in him and I thought, "This is the guy that ought to be the president." Reagan and Ford contended against each other at the convention in 1976 and it was a very close battle. We lost it right at the last minute and we felt bad about that. Prior to the time that I went to work with him Ronald Reagan had a group called Citizens for the Republic. This was a political action committee that was not for his benefit but where he could raise money and give to conservative candidates. Paul Laxalt was Reagan's closest friend in Washington, the former governor of Nevada and the Senator at that time. He invited me to join the Citizens for the Republic. I got a letter from Ronald Reagan saying, "I understand you're willing to do this, I'd love to have you join us." I became a member of the executive committee for the Citizens for the Republic. After we lost to Ford, we held a couple of monthly meetings and the meetings were usually held in Florida or someplace a distance from me and I had to fly over there and I had to pay a hotel bill. It cost me money to do it, about a thousand bucks every time I went to one of the meetings. After I went to a couple of them I thought, "This is a big waste of time." I got up in a meeting Paul Laxalt was conducting and said, "You know the next battle we're going to have is a convention fight just like the one we just lost and I don't see us getting any better prepared than we were then. I think we're wasting time." Ronald Reagan was 35 sitting at the far end of the table and he was doodling. After I said that he stopped and said, "That's right," and he pointed the pen at me. Paul said, "Well, does anybody else have anything to say?" We said, "No." No one else was going to interfere after the president said that. He said, "Okay, Dick, I'm appointing you to form a committee to come back to the next meeting and tell us what we ought to be doing. Richard, you're the chairman of the committee." We held some meetings after that and came back to the next meeting and gave him a report on what I thought we ought to be doing. We put together a program and I presented it. Everybody at the meeting thought it was a great idea except for two people. One of them was John Sears, who later became the chairman of the Reagan campaign. The chairman was fired at the night of the New Hampshire primary. The other guy was a fellow that had been with Reagan for many years named Nofziger. They all said, "Hey, this is great we want to do it. So after the meeting was over, I headed home and Paul Laxalt remained there for a while with this guy from Cutbank, Montana and Paul said, "I like Dick's idea, but who's going to get to run it? The program entails some work." Frank said, "Well, why don't you ask Dick?" Paul said, "He's a lawyer, he doesn't have time to do this and we don't have money to pay him to get it done. That's a lot of time involved." Frank said, "Well, before you write him off, ask him." So Paul called me on the phone and asked, "Would you run this program that you proposed to us? We will pay all of your expenses and enough money to pay your overhead of your office while you're gone working for us, but we don't have the money to pay you for your time." I said, "Okay." 36 I spent several months doing that and after Reagan got nominated and he was going to do the campaign, he said, "Dick, we want you to run the Western half of the country." Dick Wirthlin was put in charge of it and Bill Casing was the chairman. Dick Wirthlin was the strategist and would say, "We want you to take everything West of the Mississippi River except Texas and build the ground organization." After we won, Reagan wanted me to be the chairman of the transition team for the Department of Interior. I headed the team where we transitioned the Department of Interior from the Democrats to the Republicans and that was an interesting experience because they were paranoid about us and we were paranoid about them. It was common courtesy for the outgoing administration to cooperate with the incoming and let them have whatever information they wanted. So, we went down to the Department of interior, I recruited a group of guys to work with me on the campaign. Paul Laxalt had a couple people he wanted to do that and we took over down at the Department of Interior. We decided what we wanted to do, what people we wanted to remove and what changes we wanted to make. During that time, there were a lot of rumors in the paper about what was going to happen to Dick Richards. You saw them in Ogden. Is he going to be Secretary of the Interior? Is he going to be chairman of the party? When we got through with the Department of Interior, I got a call from the White house and they asked, "Dick, will you be available at 5:00 p.m. to take a call from the White House?" I said, "I'll be here." At 5:00 p.m., I get a telephone call from Ronald Reagan and he said, "Hi Dick, this is Ron, you've been reading about rumors that I was going to 37 appoint you chairman of the National Committee, so I want to make those rumors a reality. Would you take that chairmanship for me?" I said, "Mr. President, I'd be glad to." That's how it happened. ROH: It was that simple. RR: That simple. That's the way Reagan was, he was straight forward and simple. Let me tell you a thing I learned. This is a little out of order, but it shows Reagan. After I was elected, I was invited to go to the meetings that took place once a month between the president and the leaders of the House and the Senate. Bob Michael was a minority leader of the House. He was from Peoria, Illinois. One time, as we walked into the meeting, President Reagan says, "Hi Bob, how are things in Peoria?" Bob says, "Shucks, Mr. President, we've got it tough. We've got 5,600 caterpillar workers unemployed. We're trying to get a contract to sell our ditch-digger to the Russians and we just can't get it done." The president said, "Well, what's the matter? Is that a piece of high-tech equipment or something?" He says, "Hell no, it's a ditch digger, anybody can make a ditch digger." The president said, "Then I don't understand." He said, "Well, we have to get permission from the Department of Commerce in order to make the sale and they haven't made a decision." The president walks over and put his hand on his shoulder and said, "Bob, they just did." That day, Bob announced to his people in Peoria that the President approved their sale and they all went back to work. That's the way Reagan did it. I would have thought that he would have said to his Chief of Staff, Jim Baker to call Secretary Mossbacker and see what's holding 38 this up. Well, he didn't need to do that, he was president he could make the decision. ROH: Today is Wednesday, September 5, 2012. We are in the home of Richard Richards continuing his oral history. This is Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State University. Present are Rebecca and Richard Richards as well as Annette Richards. Why don't we pick up from when you were still in Washington D.C. and you've finished your political piece of working with the White House? Tell me what you did after that presidential term was completed. RR: After I completed my two year assignment at the Republican National Committee, I chose not to run longer because there were too many problems fighting with people that wanted to control the National Committee and all that stuff. As I left, Ronald Reagan called me down to the White House and said, "Dick, you've been a loyal lieutenant to me for a long time, but you've never really been in my administration. I would like you to come and be part of the Reagan administration. What I'd like you to do is go over to the Department of Interior and be the Under Secretary to Jim Watt. Jim is having trouble and I think you could help him out. I said, "Well, Mr. President, I've been a volunteer for you for about six years and I'm broke. I need to get out and make some money. So, I really don't think I can do that." Not only that, I was beginning to have some health problems and I knew that it would be a torture chamber to go through some kind of hearing with the Senate controlled by the Democrats. I could not imagine that the Democrats would approve someone who had just been chairman of the Republican Party to go be the Under Secretary of the Department of Interior. I 39 passed that up and I opened up a lobbying lawyer business in Washington and began representing various interests. ROH: What was the name of the company? RR: Initially, I was with a couple of other lawyers, but when I started my own company it was called, "Commerce Consultants International" (CCI). When I left the National Committee, I had a going away party sponsored by the National Committee. It was to introduce my replacement, but also it was sort of a going away party for me and Ronald Reagan came. I heard from some inside people that some of the folks at the White House said, "Don't go for Richards, you didn't go when Dick Allen left or when others left. Why go for him?" Reagan said, "Well, I like him and we'll go." So, Reagan came and he spoke and said, "Dick Richards was my friend when it took courage to be my friend." That refers to the fact that I was the only state party chairman that supported Reagan against Gerald Ford while Ford was the president. That set me apart from the others and that's why Reagan appreciated me. It took courage to do that. I opened my office and immediately got some clients. One of the first clients was Sikorsky Helicopter Company. They had been trying to sell their helicopter to Taiwan for about six years. At one time they had a deal, but when Jimmy Carter was president he killed it. I met with a representative who was a lobbyist for Sikorsky and also a General from Taiwan. He came to my office and said, 'We want to buy the Black Hawk, and if we can't get it in the next six months we're going to write it off and we're going to buy the French helicopter 40 called the Augusta. We'll give you six months to get this done." I contacted Ed Meece who was counselor to the president and told him what we wanted to do. He went to the president and the president said, "Let them have what they want." That was six years of red tape cut by the president. I became a hero to Sikorsky because they'd been trying for six years. I developed a pretty good base of aerospace clients. I represented Sikorsky and I did some work for Boeing, General Dynamics and Pratt Whitney jet engines. I did a lot of work for them over many years. It turned out to be a very good client. ROH: Were there any other major clients when you were working? RR: I had some interesting ones. I was asked to represent the Kingdom of Thailand. I was the foreign agent for Thailand here in the United States. The United States was pressing some trade violations against Thailand. They were copying some of our medications. I remember they had a fake Sudafed that they sold and they copied our movies and all kinds of stuff. They stole a lot of intellectual property. The United States was going to punish them for it. When I was representing them, I talked to the Prime Minister and saw the other people that were movers and shakers over there and I asked, "What's your deal?" They said, "We'll stop stealing in two years, but we've got to do that now because the American products like medications are too expensive for Thai people to buy so we have to copy them and sell them at a lower price. We'll stop in two years." I asked, "Why?" They said, "Because we're working on our own copyright and patent laws and when they're in place to protect us then we'll protect you, but we're not going to protect you until we're ready." I went to the White House and I talked to the 41 domestic advisor of the president who was a friend of mine, Roger Porter. I said, "They said they'll quit in two years." He started to laugh and he says, "How am I going to tell the president they're only going to steal for two years?" I said, "Well, you know, the Japanese lied to you, the Chinese lied to you, everyone else lies to you, but these guys are at least telling you the truth." They withheld the sanctions against them. I represented this fellow by the name of Chachi. He was the first elected Prime Minister and after a couple years he got on an airplane with one of his generals by the name of Suchinda. The general pulled out his pistol and said, "Okay, Mr. Prime Minister, you're out and I'm in." He took over and executed Chachi right there with the airplane. Later on, Suchinda was trying to establish himself there and a lot of students rioted and picketed and so forth. About 1,500 of them just disappeared. I guess he had them killed and removed. When the king found out what happened he told him, "You're out. You can't be the prime minister here." Suchinda walked away. The king had a great deal of moral influence, although he had no legislative or statutory right to make those decisions. That was an interesting experiment. ROH: Did you ever have to travel to Thailand? RR: I traveled to Thailand once in a while, but my area was mostly in the Far East. I did a lot of traveling. In fact, someone asked me about traveling to Hong Kong and I looked it up and found I had 22 round-trips to Hong Kong in the 10 years of my passport. I did a lot there. 42 ROH: What about in Bangkok? RR: I did a lot in Bangkok. Later on, I represented a company in California called Sunrider International. I went to Bangkok, Malaysia, Indonesia and other countries to get permission for Sunrider to sell their product there and to convince them that our method of selling was legitimate. It was multi-level marketing and that was not common in the Far East, so we had to talk them into letting us do that. ROH: What happened next in your career? RR: That went on for several years. I represented people during the George Bush administration and did some part-time volunteer work for George Herbert Walker Bush in his campaign. I did some organizing in neighborhoods and in Washington, Oregon and here in the West. In fact, I was telling Annette that while I was involved with George Bush, he invited me to fly out with him to Boeing in Seattle. They were honoring the astronauts. They had the living astronauts there and I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to who was there, I never took any pictures or anything because I was there on a political trip. I think about a half a dozen of those guys and Neil Armstrong was there. They were given an award by Boeing Company for their exploits. They had an airplane like the one George Bush flew when he crashed into the ocean and he was rescued. He was really excited about that. He was looking at that and reminiscing. I was talking to Barbara Bush while he was doing that and she was excited for him because he hadn't seen one of those airplanes for a really long time. 43 ROH: Did you do any lobbying after that? RR: I did lobbying almost up to the time that I came home to Utah. Having been the Republican National Chairman, I had excellent contacts with Republicans and the Republican presidents. After Bill Clinton got elected, most of my contacts were gone. They were now Democratic contacts, so I figured that was a good time for me to go home. ROH: What year was it that you came home? RR: I think I came home about 1993. We were looking for a place to live here. I had a nice home in Washington and the value of it increased significantly. I had a profit on that property, but the tax laws were such at that time that if I sold my house, even though I bought another house I didn't get any kind of tax break on it and the government would have taken about $70,000 from me in taxes. I said, "Well, I'm not going to do that. I'll put the money into a new house." I bought a house here in South Ogden. I bought it without Annette seeing it. I came out and I saw this house and I walked in and it was a beautiful house on 46th and Jefferson, a big gray rock house. I walked in there and the neighbor was a real estate agent for Weber County. I walked in and looked in the foyer and I didn't even go through the house, it was just so beautiful and I was impressed so I said, "I'll take it." I gave him a check that night for earnest money. I said, "One condition, my wife has a week to decide whether she wants to come here." I called Annette and she didn't want to be bothered coming out. My daughter who lived here went to see it and she said, "Oh mom, you'll love the house." We agreed and we moved 44 into the house. We lived there until I started having a pretty serious heart problem and we couldn't keep up the land. The property was too big and complicated. We had to move, so we moved here into the condominiums. ROH: Tell me a little bit about your health problems you are referring to. RR: When I was living in Virginia I went out for a bike ride with my youngest son. As I pumped up a hill I had severe chest pains and I stopped at the top and I said, "Brian, I have to stop and rest." He wanted to go on so I told him he can go on but I had to rest. When I went home Annette saw me and she said, "Dick you look terrible, you need to go to a doctor." I said, "Well, I'll do it tomorrow." I was kind of gray and having a lot of pain. I waited until the next day and went to a doctor. They examined me and said, "You've had a major blockage of your arteries, but don't worry about it because the worst that could happen to you already happened." We thought that was pretty crazy to say that, so I went to a very famous cardiologist I had contact with as a result of some of my business. He ran a heart hospital in Phoenix. They tested me and said, "You've got some blockage." They gave me an angiogram and put in a stent. The stent lasted just one day and it was clogged up again. This was just a couple of days before Christmas. I said to the surgeon, "What do you recommend?" He said, "I think you ought to get a mechanical fix." He meant a bypass. I said, "Well, I ought to do it. This is a good time for me to do that. Business is slow in Washington. So when can you do it?" He said, "I can do it 45 tomorrow." I called Annette and said, "I'm not coming home for Christmas, I'm getting open-heart surgery tomorrow." Annette had Christmas in Virginia with the family before she came to see me. I remember after the operation when I looked in the mirror; I looked like my father looked on his death bed. My voice was just like him. Annette saw me and she started crying. That was my first open-heart surgery. I got over that for a while and later on I developed another problem. In fact, I'd been in Korea and worked out in the exercise room in the hotel in Korea and I thought, "I'm doing great." By the time I got to the airport I was having trouble, so that was the sign that I needed it again. Then, I ended up having open-heart surgery again here in Ogden with Dr. Cain at the McKay-Dee Hospital. That one was kind of interesting because I went to Salt Lake to the Beehive House and I was participating in a political meeting there. The pains became more severe and more severe. I didn't think I was going to make it home it was so bad. Immediately, I saw a sign that said "Hospital Next Right" so I took the road up to the hospital on Antelope Drive and went to the emergency ward and went in and told the lady, "I need some help." She said, "You look terrible. Sit down." They got me in a wheelchair and got me some oxygen and said, "You need to see your heart doctor tomorrow." I went to see him and that's when he said, "We'll do another operation on you." So I got another open-heart surgery here. The one I got in Phoenix I got about five or six bypasses. When I was here in Ogden I got a couple more. It seemed like every two years I would have problems. 46 Later on, I had a problem again and I saw the same doctors and they said, "We won't open you up, we've opened you up twice and we're not interested in performing another open-heart, we never know what we're going to get into." I was in serious trouble and nobody would touch me. I went to the LDS hospital in Salt Lake and they didn't want to do anything and McKay-Dee didn't want to do anything. My son got on the internet and found a vascular surgeon out in Daly City, California who was doing some experimental laser surgery. We decided to try that. I went out to see them and they acknowledged that I needed some surgery, but it was experimental and the FDA would not let them perform that surgery unless I had an independent doctor look at me beforehand to say, "If he doesn't get it he'll probably die." It was one of these compassionate things. They said, "There's no insurance, so if you come out here, you'll have to bring cash with you." The vascular surgeon's secretary or nurse negotiated with the hospital and everybody involved and I had to take $15,000 out to Daly City Hospital and they performed that surgery on me. It's called TMR Transmyocardial Revascularization. They open you up and pull the ribs apart and punch holes in your heart with a laser. They move the laser right up to the heart muscle and punch a hole and blood will start coming out and they rub their finger on it and it seals it over and they move over and punch another until they punch 25 holes, sew you up and that's it. I'll tell you, it was the best operation I've ever had. The impact was dramatic. I walked out of there in a couple of days and the only thing that was wrong with me was I hurt a 47 lot on the soft tissue. Otherwise, it was like I'd never had a heart problem. That lasted me for several years and we decided I could go on a mission. Annette and I volunteered to go on a mission and we were called to the Rochester, New York mission and that included Buffalo, Rochester and Palmyra. While I was there I had the problem again and I was hospitalized. When I got home everything looked pretty good. I ended up over here at Ogden Regional and had a few more stents put in. I got to a point where I was really in trouble and my doctor said, "I tried to go in there and put in another stent, but I couldn't even get my wire in the artery. I tried four times and then I gave it up. I have to tell you, you're in pretty serious shape. I don't think you'll live on too much. I'd give you about two months unless somebody can fix this and we don't have a doctor with the ability to fix this particular problem." It was the main descending right artery. ROH: What year was this? RR: It was about 2007. The doctor said, "Let me call Mayo, Johns Hopkins and Cleveland. If anybody could do it one of them can, but I don't even know if they'll touch you." Cleveland said, "Come on back and we'll look at it and decide what to do." So we went back there and we checked in on a Monday and they did all kinds of tests on me until Friday and I met with the surgeon and he said, "Mr. Richards, you're in pretty bad shape. You've got about two months and that's about all you can live with this. The only way we could avoid that is if we could fix it. We don't even want to try. We don't open up people three times, now you want 48 us to open you up the fourth time. We don't normally do that." I said, "Well, doctor, you're the best hospital in the country to do this, you're the best doctor and I'm a tough patient. I want you to do it." He started laughing and he said, "I guess if anybody can survive it, you probably could. I won't agree to do it, but stick around for a day or so and I'll talk to some other surgeons and we'll see if we can work something out. But you have no promise from me." On Sunday, we got the telephone call from them and they said, "If you're still willing to take the risk and give appropriate releases, we'll do it on Tuesday." They called back and said, "We've got a cancellation Monday, come on in Monday morning." So I went in Monday morning and that's when they did the operation on me. It was kind of interesting though, the doctor did not want to do it. I knew he didn't want to do it, so he was looking pretty glum when they were about to do it. They did twelve open-heart surgeries a day at that hospital. He looked kind of glum and I said, "Well, doctor, let me tell you something that will make you feel better. I'm a Mormon, and we have a scripture that says all men are given a gift and you have a gift to heal people and I have the gift to be healed." He gave me the thumbs up and shoved me in the operating room and that was it. He called my doctor here and said, "You know, if it hadn't been for his attitude, we would have never touched him. He had such a good attitude. We thought he had a reasonable chance to survive." After about a year my doctor said, "Write to this guy and tell him you're still alive, I think he'll be interested in hearing it." ROH: It's been five years later. Are you doing well now? 49 RR: I'm doing pretty well. I've got some problems, but I'm doing pretty well. ROH: So does this heart issue run in your family? RR: Both of my parents had strokes, so I presume it runs in the family. I've got seven sisters and none of them have the problem. I have one brother and he's had one little problem, but hasn't had a stent put in. I've ended up with nine bypasses, four open-heart surgeries, fourteen stents, and a pacemaker and I'm just ticking along until it's time to go. ROH: Were there any prominent surgeons here in Ogden that worked with you on this? RR: Doctor Cain at McKay-Dee Hospital and my cardiologist here is Doctor Diehl at Ogden Regional. He's put in about seven of my stents. He's not a surgeon, he's a cardiologist. So, that's my medical history. ROH: Let's back up here a little bit. You moved back here from Washington. Were you involved in law practice when you moved back to Ogden? RR: I still represented Sunrider Corporation out of California. I was their general council. I really wasn't though. I had the title, but I was more of a consultant to them and did routine corporate work for them. I did a little bit of other lobbying. I did not do legal work, but I did some lobbying for people. ROH: Were you lobbying for Utah constituents or people back in Washington? RR: Mostly back in Washington. 50 ROH: Can you tell me some of the people you were working with then? RR: I was working with people in the aerospace business and I had to lobby the congress for them to put a little pressure on Taiwan to buy a bunch of Boeing aircraft. Taiwan Airlines wanted it, but they had some guys in the Taiwan government that didn't want to spend the money although they had billions on hand. Our job was to build a little bit of fire under the head of the government in Taiwan so they'd buy the airplanes from us. We had a bad balance of trade. They sold us a lot more than we sold them. To sell them eight or ten 747's was a big deal and we promoted that pretty aggressively. I didn't do a whole lot more, I really was quite retired. ROH: Did you get involved with any groups in the community? RR: I got involved with some friends and we played golf once a week. I did a little work in politics. I helped Orrin Hatch and other Republican candidates. I didn't do a lot. I didn't have the energy to do a lot and I didn't feel safe to travel. I did do some traveling to visit my son in Alabama and my daughter in New York and stuff like that, but I've been retired. However, I'm writing some papers on how I think we can improve the presidential election system in America. ROH: I know you have written a lot. RR: I've had people ask me to represent them and I've turned them down because I couldn't be reliable. If I had to go someplace tomorrow at 10:00, I'm not sure I could do it because of my health. I wake up some mornings and I just can't operate. 51 ROH: I know about you're involvement with Weber State and you've indicated that you guest lecture at the University of Utah. Why don't you tell me a little bit about that? RR: My interest was primarily with Weber State. When I left Washington after having seen the legal profession and the lobbyist I thought, "We have a real problem with ethics in this country." I wanted to do something about ethics and I talked to Ann Milner who was president of the university. I embarrassed my wife in what I said, but I said, "Ann, you ought to teach ethics on the campus. If you do that, you'll be a hero and if you don't do it you'll be a bum." She said, "You mean I'll be a bum?" I said, "Yes." We laughed about that. We talked about ethics and the development people got in touch with me. He said, "If you want to do something about it, why don't you put up some money to start a foundation?" So I did. I put up quite a bit of money for it. We started our ethics program and what we've been doing is giving scholarships out. For the last couple of years we've given scholarships and I think last year we gave about $20,000. That is, $1,000 scholarships to 20 people. ROH: Tell me a little bit about who is receiving the scholarships. RR: We put on a program in conjunction with Garff Motors, who has a program for high school students. We decided to have each of the high schools in the area participate in a contest to write the best essay on how we can improve ethics in our community. The people who wrote the best essay in 20 high schools were given a $1,000 scholarship to Weber State. We've done that for two years and I 52 presume we will continue to do it. In the meantime, I decided to write a book. I started writing my book about what I had done and so on and I've got some good help from Gene Sessions up on the campus. It took me a long time. Writing a book is not an easy project. My wife had a lot of good notes. My secretary kept a lot of good notes. I had a lot of press releases. A lot of what I put in there I got from newspapers because most everything I did was written up in the press somewhere. The book is called, "Climbing the Political Ladder One Rung at a Time" That was designed primarily to encourage young people who like politics to get involved. Also, to tell them how I was able to go from nowhere to the National Chairmanship and that they can do the same thing. As I give talks around, one of the first questions everybody asks is, "How did you ever get to become the Republican National Chairman?" The press says, "He came from Podunk Utah. Where's Ogden?" They had no idea where Ogden was. I had no family that was previously involved in politics. My family didn't have money, so how did I get to be National Chairman? ROH: Do you think that in today's environment that something like that could happen to someone? RR: It would be pretty rare because I've never heard of it happening before either. ROH: I'm sure that's what a lot of the students say is that it's really remarkable. RR: Well, what I tell them is that if they are willing to do the grubby, unglamorous work like licking the envelopes, putting on the stamps and running the errands, 53 you can work yourself up that ladder. Candidates love volunteers and if you're a good volunteer, you will just keep progressing up the line. The guy that I hired to be the executive director of the party here when I was the national chairman was Dave Turner, a young kid out of Utah State that volunteered to drive a car for me when I was a candidate. He was just a young kid interested in politics and he was a driver. From there he just moved up the ladder until he ended up in a pretty good position. ROH: What is he doing now? RR: He worked for Hudd for a while and he's just trying to get some years in for government service and he's working for the national security people at the airport. ROH: Back to this ethics business. It's curious to me because I don't know of a lot of ethics programs at other schools, so what inspired you to create something related to ethics at Weber State? RR: Well, because we needed it. We really need it. When I talked to them, Ann said, "Talk to the head of the business department." I talked to him and he said, "Well, we devote an hour or two in the course of study on ethics." I said, "That's nothing. We ought to have a whole program of ethics." I really pushed it hard and Nathan Clark pushed me to put up the money to start it and that's what we've done. Every day you can read in the newspaper about some major breech of ethics on the part of a governor, a senator, or someone that works for the city— everybody. There's ethical breech all around us and a lot of times these kids 54 don't know any better. I've seen surveys where they ask kids if they have ever cheated in school. Seventy-five percent of them say they've cheated and when you ask why they say, "Well, everybody else is cheating and I'm competing with them. If I have to compete with them then I guess I have to cheat." I thought, "We need to start teaching them a little bit earlier." If we can get a hold of these kids in high school and get them involved in ethics, it's going to a make a difference. Someone asked me, "How are you going to measure success?" I said, "I don't know that you can, but somewhere along the line you're going to touch somebody and that's going to improve their attitude on ethics." That's what it's all about. It's a difficult thing. It's prodding all the time and trying to get people to buy scholarships for the kids, but we have had some experience from these young kids that won the scholarship that say, "I could not have gone to college without that scholarship. That made all the difference in the world to me." We give it to them not because they are rich or good students, but because they have the best ideas about ethics. I still spend a lot of time and effort on this ethics stuff. ROH: I think that's great. RR: However, I do have a complaint against the university on this and I've talked to a lot of these guys that raise big chunks of money. I say, "Why don't you tell the people that are giving to earmark some of that money for ethics?" The university doesn't want to do it because they want the money to go into the building or whatever they do. There's no reason why we can't tell a guy that's going to give a million dollars that $50,000 of that can go into ethics, but the university has their 55 own program and it isn't channeling the ethics program. We're getting the new president soon and I'm going to be approaching him. Ann has been supportive, but nothing has happened other than holding those meetings. We had the former governor speak to our group a year ago and we gave out all these scholarships and there wasn't one word in the press about it. Standard Examiner never wrote one word about it. We had the pictures taken of all these kids that got scholarships and we were hoping they'd get their picture in the paper and they did not. I called Doug at the Standard and I asked if he would run a story on the ethics program. He said, "Yes. When is it?" I said, "It was last night." They did not even know what night it was and I said, "You guys at the university and the public relations department failed, you should have seen that the press was there." Again, this is the second year they didn't do it. We've decided that we've got to have a public relations guy on our board. It's their job to get the press. ROH: Is there anything nationally that you're aware of happening with ethics? RR: No. It was kind of interesting when Jon Huntsman was the governor, he came up when they named the Richard Richards Institute. Governor Huntsman and Jake Garn were there and they named it. Huntsman said, "You're the only university around here that's promoting ethics. I'm going to support you. I'm going to help you." Well, he hasn't. I sent him an email when he was over in China and said, "You said you wanted to help us I thought it meant you were going to give us some money or get other people to give some money." We hate to have to go out 56 and grub money a dollar at a time to give these scholarships. Zion's Bank has been a big supporter. They have given us $12,000 each year for two years. That was very helpful to us. The university has paid for the meals when we have the banquet and that's about all the university has done. It really hasn't caught on yet. ROH: It takes some time. How many years has it been now? RR: I've been working on it for about three or four years, but we've been giving out scholarships for the last two. Alan Hall is a big money raiser for the school. I went to Alan and said, "Alan, why don't you tell these guys that are giving money that they can earmark some for ethics." He said he would do it, but I don't think he has. However, in the next week or so that committee meets again and I'm going to go back to Alan Hall and say, "Look, give us some money." In fact, because he writes this business article and I told him, "Alan, why don't you write an article about ethics?" He wrote a paragraph about it out of probably 30 or 40 columns. We got two inches referring to ethics. We're going to have to press it. ROH: I think it would be good for you to write a column too because you've got more experience. RR: I've written some columns only they've been political columns. ROH: What do you think about ethics in politics these days? RR: Well, politics today is meaner than it has been in a long time. When Jake Garn decided he didn't want to run again and Howard Baker from Tennessee, the 57 senator from Colorado said, "It isn't fun anymore. It used to be fun, but it is just mean now. Your colleagues are mean, your constituents are mean, the press is mean and it just isn't fun." Senator Baker told me, "If I knew how good it was on the outside, I would have quit the senate a long time ago." It's just a bad environment and it is getting worse. You can go back in history and you can see even in George Washington's time they slandered one another, but we slander them day after day in the press that gets to millions of readers every day. That's why it appears so bad. ROH: How do you inspire the youth? Let's say these high school kids that you're helping to go to university. How do you inspire them to change when what they're seeing is so slanderous? RR: We've made a couple of attempts to do that. We were assigned by the governor to sit on the committee to tell how to improve elections in the state. I got the students up at Weber to write a program on it and we submitted it to the governor. We also got one on ethics and what the ethics reform ought to be. Our kids on the campus wrote a program on how to establish an ethics program in the state of Utah and the legislation didn't pay any attention to it. We gave it directly to the governor and we gave it to legislatures and we gave it to the press. Everybody saw it but the legislature pre-empted everybody and wrote their puny little ethics reform which is nothing. 58 ROH: I was wondering if that had anything to do with it. I remember hearing about ethics reform a little over a year ago, so I was wondering if that is just one of those things that will take more time. RR: Yes, it will take time beyond my time to get, but whatever we do to get it going is worth it. Like I said, if you ask, "How do you measure your success?" There are no definitive measures, but if you touch the heart and mind of a half a dozen kids, that's good. Out of our first year we had one of our students that got an ethics scholarship and they worked on our committee. They went to Washington to be an intern at the White House for Obama. Another one went to work for congressman Bishop. The kids did get involved and they're doing some stuff. I can pick out two or three kids that I know we've had an impact on and will do something in politics. As I look back, when I was party chairman in Utah, Karl Rove was one of my interns. I didn't even know him. I didn't pay attention to him at that time. Another one was this guy Dave Hanson, who runs Orrin Hatch's campaign and I had lunch with him yesterday. Another one named Alan Peterson who did a nationwide organizational program for Richard Nixon and we had some guys from Ogden participating. Alex Hurtado, he was one of my best political friends and he got involved in this national organization for Nixon. I've seen a handful of people that have become involved and have been very successful, but it's got to be more. ROH: Is there anything else you'd like to add about ethics? 59 RR: There is one thing that's happening. Isaac Goeckeritz is putting together a film on ethics to promote the ethics up here. He has interviewed Jake Garn, Richard Wirthlin, Mr. Mack, the governor, and a whole lot of people talking about ethics in their business. Bob Garff talks about the ethics of his father in the automobile business. They're talking about ethics and he's preparing it and his wife said he is coming close and maybe by Christmas he will have it done and it will go on the air at KUED. I think it will be good enough that it will open up a lot of other things. Another guy that's in that is Dan Jones and he talks about ethics in the polling business. ROH: That will be good to see. Isaac Goeckeritz, for future reference, is a local historian, film documenter, a Weber State graduate, and one of Richard's relatives. RR: We were involved with the one on the Union Station, he did the one on the hill out in Uintah, "The U," he did one on homeless vets and now he's doing one on ethics. He's also doing other stuff. KUED loves him, they say he's got a great deal of talent and they're going to keep using him. ROH: Today is September 26, 2012 and we are in the home of Dick Richards. Present are Rebecca Ory Hernandez and Dick Richards. We are going to continue your oral history. The last time we spoke we talked a lot about the Ethics Institute at Weber State, so today I would like to talk a little more about present day and what is happening in your life. What are your involvements here in Ogden and in 60 the state related to politics? I know that you have been a guest on a few T.V. shows, so why don't you tell me a little bit about that? RR: I was on two Ted Capner shows, that's the Sunday afternoon broadcast. The first one after he read my book he invited me to come and talk to him and we talked about the things that are in the book. You've seen many of them. The other discussion we had just a week or so ago was on how we can cut down the cost of presidential campaign. This year's presidential campaign will probably cost 4 billion dollars. Each one of the candidates will raise about a billion dollars for their campaign and the political parties will make another half a billion. Then, 527 committees, or so-called super-packs, will each raise about a half a billion or more and that will put us at least $4 billion for the presidential campaign. The point that people don't understand is that the Supreme Court has rules that anyone can get involved in a campaign and spend all the money they want provided they do not coordinate with the candidate. All these committees raise money and you know what their message is going to be, they don't have to say vote for Obama or vote for Romney, you can tell what they're promoting. They get involved in it and that will bring the cost to over $4 billion. My proposal was that in order to prevent this limit the time, since you can't limit the money. Reduce the time of the campaign and allow the candidates to do their exploratory effort up until about the 15th of April in the election year. By the 15th of April they have to announce whether they will or will not be a candidate. If they say they will be a candidate, from that day on they can start raising money. They'll have to go through the primaries of the various states from that time before November. 61 If you're in a state with a caucus convention like we have, you might have your first caucus about three months after the candidate announces. We'd have the county conventions and the state conventions and if you had to have a primary you'd push the campaign between the Republican and the Democrat clear back to about August of September. They can't raise or spend a billion dollars between September and November, so it will really force the whole process to slow down to eliminate cost. Romney had been running for about 6 or 8 years and Obama has been running for 3 and it's just boring, wasteful and non-productive. The conventions and the debates they have are really about nothing and they reduce themselves to just petty criticism of the other guy. If you had only a three month campaign period they'd talk about what they want to do. They'd talk about the positive aspects of their campaign. ROH: Who profits from all of this money? RR: I made that point on television. The only ones that profit are the television stations, the radio, the newspaper, the campaign managers, and the advertising firms. The public doesn't profit by it. It's the guys that make money out of the campaign. Professional fundraisers get a percentage of the money they raise, the television people get money for everything they run, the campaign managers and the public relations people get 15 percent of what they spend on television. Just imagine a $200 million campaign on television and the guy is going to make about $30 million for putting the ads on the air. That's a big deal. ROH: So the candidates don't actually make any of the money they are raising? 62 RR: No, the candidates don't get it. It's those that are in the campaign business that get the money. Nobody likes to give it, but when you've got a campaign and they keep hitting you up for money, you feel the pressure and you make contributions. Everybody but the guys that make money on the campaign would like to see it shorter. ROH: Do you think that will happen in our lifetime? RR: It could, but I don't know whether it will or not. There has been a drive in the past for regional primaries or a national primary. If we had regional primaries, that would help a lot because then the candidate would have to talk to all of the American people instead of just eight states. Where they are now they go to Illinois and they talk about automobile manufacturing because that's the big issue there. They go to Ohio and they talk about the agricultural subsidies. It really isn't a national campaign, it is a series of little local interest campaigns. That's not good for the country. ROH: Are there any other shows that you've been featured on other than the one that you just mentioned? RR: No, I've been on his show a couple of times and I speak once in a while at the Hinckley Institute. I get invited more to the University of Utah to speak than I do Weber State, but I do participate on the campuses and I've been asked to talk to civic groups in town. My health is such that I have been turning them down. I don't know whether or not I'm going to feel well enough to do it. I just say, "No, I don't do that anymore." 63 ROH: Are you doing any local speeches during this campaign? RR: I write down suggestions for the candidates to send to them and they never follow those. What happens is that when a guy gets to be the campaign manager doesn't want other people telling him what to do. They look at guys like me and say, "Oh those guys are over the hill, they don't know the campaigns are different today." They don't pay any attention to us. They're wrong. I found my way to the national chairmanship by doing a good campaign on the state and local level and then on the national level. The principles of running the program we run is the same today as it was 20, 30, or 50 years ago. The average American has nothing to do with the campaign. They don't know the candidate. They don't meet the candidates and they don't even know who they are. If you put on a program where you give them the opportunity to participate in the campaign they're flattered by it. They want to do it. What we had done over the years was recruit people. For Richard Nixon, we set up a telephone operation and called people in the various neighborhoods and said, "I'm a volunteer for Richard Nixon, we think he's uniquely qualified to be president of the United States. We're doing what we can, will you help us?" A lot of people say yes and ask what they can do. We send them brochures and ask them to go door-to-door and tell the people about Richard Nixon and give him their personal endorsement. We know it flatters people and they think their job is very important. 64 Many years ago, one guy up in Portland called up after we went through the primary and said, "I did my work in the primary, but I'm 82 years old and legally blind. I don't think I can do it in a general election. So, you better get someone to take my place." He thought that the little role he had in the neighborhood was so important that if he didn't do it, there would be a problem so we'd have to get somebody to take his place. T The campaign chairman doesn't make any money if you do this volunteer work and neither does the television or anyone else, this is a very quiet campaign. The only person that makes any money on this is the guy that rents you the building and maybe the telephone company that has telephones from it. ROH: That's interesting. Are you doing any other kinds of present day consulting? RR: No, I'm actually retired. I'm helping a couple of little businesses, but I'm basically retired. I'm one of the 47 percent that's living off of the government program called Social Security. ROH: Can you share a little bit about the businesses you're helping? RR: I've been helping a company that makes a gasoline additive that reduces the pollution of your automobile and increases your gas mileage. Interestingly enough, my role is to get government people to look at it and try it out. I have found that people that work for the government in the motor pools don't care if you save money on gasoline. It's not out of their pocket. You can give it to them and ask them to try it out, but they don't do it. We talk about the need to increase 65 mileage and reduce pollution, but the guy that's running the motor pool at the state of Utah, Salt Lake and Ogden don't care. ROH: Is it corn-based? RR: No, it's not a food-based. It's made of algae. It does not affect the corn prices or the wheat prices. I use it in my car and I get five more miles per gallon in the city and on the highway. ROH: That's fascinating. RR: It's just a little tablet you put in the gas tank. It looks like a jelly bean and when you fill your gas tank you drop it into the tank. ROH: Is it available on the market? RR: Yes, but it's only on the internet. You can't sell it at the gas stations because it cuts down their gas sales they don't want that. I've got to give my wife credit that she put up with all of the things I've done and all of the moving. I have dragged her and my kids around the country time and time again and they've never complained. I think they've had a great benefit from doing it, but at the same time a lot of people complain if they've had to pick up and move every year or two. We never lived in a house for more than 10 years until we were 13 years in that house in McLean, Virginia and that's the longest we've ever been in a house. AR: Actually, we've been here now about as long as we've been there. It wasn't easy, I'll tell you. 66 ROH: Annette, you do history, right? AR: Yes. I've been doing that. I went to a meeting in Salt Lake on this new family search and they asked how long people have been researching and I'd been researching the longest. Over 50 years. I started when I was pretty young. Our oldest daughter was three months old when I got involved. ROH: Okay. Thanks Annette. Let's talk a little about present day politics, just a couple of quick questions. Are you involved at all in present day politics as far as on the national level? RR: Once in a while a candidate will call me and ask if he can sit down with me for a while and talk about the campaign and I give him some ideas. Otherwise, I'm really not involved. I was called by the campaign chairman for Governor Rick Perry and asked if I would be the Utah chairman for Perry and I said, "We've got to get passed John Huntsman first." I couldn't work for Perry as long as John Huntsman was in the race, but if Huntsman was out I'd be glad to help Perry out. I think he was a good candidate except he can't talk and answer questions. ROH: Other than Perry, are there any other names? RR: Well, I gave a little bit of advice to Hatch's opponent, but I said, "Orrin is a good friend of mine. I can't tell you how to run against him, but I can tell you what I think the issues ought to be." I spent an hour with Dan Lillianquist and I thought he was a good candidate, but he ran a bad campaign. ROH: What makes a bad campaign? 67 RR: If the campaign doesn't connect with the public and the voters it's a bad campaign. What you've got to do is talk about a message that they want to hear about and you have to have a good point of view on it. That's what these polls are about. They're polling all the time, "How do you feel about immigration? How do you feel about this or that?" The candidate tailors their message to appeal to those people. Unfortunately, it gets to be just a pandering deal to them. I respect Jon Huntsman because he said, "I'm not going to go to Iowa because I'm against ethanol subsidies. If I got to Iowa they're just going to "boo" me and I won't make any headway there, so I'm not going to go pander to them." I respect him for taking that position. Most of the candidates will go to one place and pander to them and it's just not healthy for the country and I think it's too bad. I'm 80 years old and my health isn't good, so I deliberately took myself out of a lot of this. I did join the tea party and I'll tell you why I like it. Number one, this is middle class America, the silent majority starting to make a little bit of noise. They're not looking for something special for themselves; they just don't want things special given to everybody else. They say, "We've got to cut down our spending." It isn't a question of raising more money, it's spending less money. When they go out and they have a rally of 15,000 people, there's no paraphernalia on the ground or a mess. They don't create a problem. It's clean, it's nice and these are good American citizens voicing their opinion. I read where people say, "The tea party is fading and they are not going to be all that critical in the campaign." They're kidding themselves. The tea party is alive and well and they will be very active in the campaigns when it comes closer to election time. 68 They don't campaign all year long, but they will be out working and they will have an impact. ROH: I think it's interesting that today that we have a new party. I think most people would find that interesting historically to look back and see the beginnings of this new party. Thank you for sharing. RR: One of the things that I propose in election reform is that they allow all parties to campaign in primary elections. Let them all get into the campaign and you'll wash out those that aren't really going to be a contender and you're going to end up with two or three. Maybe there would be three candidates in November, but there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe the guy that wins the presidency only had 47 percent of the population, but that's okay. Other people ought to have the right to voice their point of view and have the American people hear it. ROH: I had a young political science student ask me a question that they wanted me to ask you. He said that a lot of his friends are just not interested in politics at all. I would say between the ages of 19 and 26 are the age of his friends right now. He wanted me to ask you why they should be interested or get involved in politics because their perception of everything they see is negative. RR: That's unfortunate. A lot of people are turned off by the negative campaigns. I am. I'd get tired of listening to them. In fact, I asked Ted Capner if he watched all of the debates and he said, "No." I said, "Neither did I." I couldn't watch them all because they were not productive. I'd tell these young kids, "If you are really interested in politics, find a candidate that you like who's telling the story the way 69 you like it and join that campaign. If you get involved in it you will see your way through all of these things. You'll see how productive it can be." When you're only 19 years old, you're not thinking about retirement, medical expenses, or high taxes. You just haven't been out in the real world yet. As soon as you get a job and get your paycheck and you find out how much money was taken out for social security and worker's compensation and all these other things you think, "Hey, I thought I was getting $200 and I got $150." That shocks them and that's the eye-opener to these people. It kind of goes along with what Winston Churchill said, "When you're 19 years old, if you're not a liberal you've got no heart, but when you're 55 years old, if you're not a conservative you've got no brains." ROH: Right. That was what he asked, "How does it impact my life? All I'm trying to do is survive." He's actually got a wife and a child. He's working, going to school and he's involved on campus in leadership. He said, "I don't see how I can even be a blip on the radar of what's going on nationally." RR: Well, that's a story I tell in my book. I started out as the junior Republican chairman at Weber Junior College in 1952. In 1980, I was the Republican National Chairman. I climbed up. President Reagan said, "He's had every job on the way up. This is the first chairman I know that's worked his way through the state and national chairmanship positions." There's opportunity out there for these guys and in order to really understand it, I think you have to get involved in a campaign. The guy who's going to school and has a wife and kids says, "I'm 70 worried about my health insurance and if we have another baby we can't afford the cost of it." Then insurance becomes interesting to him. After a while, he gets hurt on the job or he gets sick, then social security, Medicare, and disability becomes interesting to him. These things become interesting as he grows older and he's facing that proposition. Young people don't look that far ahead. They think they're invincible and indestructible. They just don't see the problems down the road. ROH: Right. So let's talk a little bit about your family. I know you've got lots of children. RR: I've got five. ROH: That's a good-sized family. Are any of them involved in politics? RR: No, that is the interesting thing. My oldest son is a professor of philosophy at the University of Alabama. His name is Richard Albert Richards. He was named after Annette's father. He started out to be a dancer professionally and he danced around the world as a ballet dancer. He was quite good, but not good enough to be a star, and if you're not a star you can't make a living doing it. He finally decided that it wasn't for him and he went back to school to study philosophy. When he went back to school, he took the college ACT test and he got in the 98th percentile and he was offered a full fellowship at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. He got his degree there. He was a very good student and he had very good recommendations by the number one philosopher there and he went around to some of the colleges to seek employment and he ran into people that 71 said, "White men need not apply, we're going to hire a minority or a woman. So don't bother to apply." My oldest daughter, Julie Dockter, is married to a real estate salesman and they have four sons who are all doing very well. One of them is a businessman doing a lot of business with China and has made a lot of money. Another one is a medical doctor and his name is Dr. Dockter. Another one is in college studying something in physical sciences and the other one is a computer expert at Novell in Provo. My next daughter is married to a lawyer who's practicing law in New York. She's interested in politics, but she doesn't do much of it. She reads a lot and she gets involved a little bit but she has three kids and teaches early morning seminary and some other things. Her name is Jan Stevenson. My next daughter is Amy Hartvigsen and her husband is a landscape architect down in Alpine and they have four boys. The oldest is now on a mission. They have really talented kids. There is a lot of talent around my grandkids. My youngest son, Brian, works for the state of Utah in Utah Workplace. That's my family. I have ten grandchildren and eleven great grandchildren and four of those great grandchildren are part Chinese. My grandson, Chris Dockter married a Chinese girl from Taiwan. 72 ROH: I couldn't help but notice that you have a lot of art hanging in your home. RR: It's all family art. My father was the artist. ROH: Other people in your family are also artistically inclined. RR: Yes. My brother is an artist and he taught art at Dennison University in Dallas. My son, Rich, painted that big picture on the wall there. On the wall up there I've got paintings of my father, my brother, my daughter, and my son. We've all got a painting up there. My father is the best artist of the bunch. I have sisters that are very good. I think you saw the picture of the dogs in my bedroom. One of my sisters did that. There are a number of good artists in the family. The etching above the piano was by my brother. That big picture there is done by my son, Rich. The Abraham Lincoln was given to me by the Republican Party of Utah when I completed my term as state chairman. The star is a little thing that Richard Nixon gave out when he was elected president. The eagle is from the inauguration of Reagan and Bush. Geronimo is one that I just purchased. A friend of mine, Jay Taggert, former superintendent of the schools for Utah gave me the Teddy Roosevelt. ROH: Is there anything else that I might not have asked you that you would like to address? RR: I tell people jokingly that I used to be a genius, but now I'm just very bright. As a result of my heart operations, I have lost some mental acuity and I'm not as sharp as I used to be. My memory isn't as good. I have bad days so I'm limited. As a former National Chairman, I always have access to a seat at the national 73 conventions. They have one for former chairmen and I couldn't go so I asked them if my nephew could use my credentials so he went to the last convention. I went to every convention from 1968 until George W. Bush ran. I did not go then, but I went through Nixon, Reagan, and H. W. Bush. I've been to a lot of conventions. ROH: Is your nephew involved in politics now? RR: He's a lobbyist so he's a little bit involved in politics, but he likes to get involved. He has worked for candidates in the past. I don't have any children that wanted to be lawyers or wanted to be in politics. I wouldn't encourage them to be lawyers because I'm unhappy with the profession now. ROH: I was going to ask you if you encouraged them at all when they were younger to go into law or politics since they were living in Washington. RR: My girls were more enamored by living in Washington than my sons. They loved going to the White House and going to Kennedy Bunk Port and going to the parades and inaugurals and so on. They really enjoyed that. Everybody really loved being in that historical place, including me. ROH: Are there any stories about Ogden that many people might not know about or historical stories that would be just interesting to share? RR: Did you see the film that Isaac did on 25th Street? There is some historical stuff that I'm involved in on that 25th Street thing. When I went to law school, I drove from Ogden to Salt Lake and I had a couple of people that paid me to ride with 74 me. One of them was Annabelle Weakly and the other was Jane Larson. She was about 70 years old and she wanted to go back to school. She graduated from Weber College when she was 70 or 72. I got to know both of them fairly well. After I got out of law school I wanted to try lawsuits and I wanted to go to trial. If you want trial experience as a young lawyer you're not going to get it in a civil case. I went to the judges and said, "I want some trial experience so give me your criminals that don't have any money that are in jail and can't make bond." We didn't have a public defender system then. Over a period of one year they gave me 10 criminals and I tried the 10 felonies to a jury. I got 8 acquittals out of my 10 and that put me in business. I had lots of criminal business. In fact, it was too much. I ended up trying to get rid of it because I got tired of the criminals, but that's where I got my experience in the court room. I'll give you a quote from a guy if it won't sound politically incorrect, "One day I was walking along the street and this black guy came up to me and said, are you Mr. Richardson Richardson?" I said, "Well, I guess I am." He said, "Are you the man that represented Copeland Griffin?" I said, "I guess that's right." He said, "Well, let me shake your hand. You must be good. He was the biggest crook in town." Two of my defenses were for one guy and I won both of the cases and this impressed those in the black community. All my life I've been interested in politics, not for the sake of winning, but for the sake of helping the country. I've been concerned about the country. I see things that I don't think are right and I don't know whether I told you this story but when I was pretty new in the practice, we saw some misconduct and what I call 75 criminal activity on the part of elected officials in Weber County. I was instrumental in getting a grand jury called and ended up putting a sheriff in jail and some other things. These guys were doing a lot of things wrong. ROH: No, you didn't mention that? Who was the Sheriff? RR: It was LeRoy Hadley. I was representing a guy by the name of Ralph Anderson. He was a federal prisoner being housed in Ogden and waiting for his appeal in the tenth circuit. He appeared to have the run of the jail. Every time I'd go up to jail to see another client I'd see him hanging around. He wasn't in a cell, he was hanging around. One of these guys that had tattoos on his arm and had a pack of cigarettes rolled up in his shirt sleeve tried to hire me to represent him and he wanted an appeal to the tenth circuit. He was in jail for burglarizing a couple of post offices. He and his brother-in-law would drive a particularly adapted automobile up to these small post offices, break in, wheel the safe out and put it in the trunk of the car and drive up into the mountains and blow it up with dynamite and take out the money orders and postage stamps. He said, "Dick, I'll hire you. I'll give you $10,000 to represent me. I've got $60,000 stolen in postal money orders up in Pocatello. I can sell those for $20,000 and I'll give you half of it." I said, "No thanks. Not interested." Anyway, as time went on I talked to the guy and one day his wife came to me and said, "Mr. Richards, they're going to let Andy out of jail again this weekend. I'm afraid if he gets caught out of jail when he's supposed to be in jail the sheriff will say he escaped and he'll get an extra 5 or 10 years punishment." 76 When I found out they were letting him out of jail I said, "I've got to tell the judge. I am an officer of the court so I have to tell Judge Anderson, the federal judge in Salt Lake, what's happening here." I called the judge and he said, "You ought to call Judge Ritter." I said, "Judge, I don't like Judge Ritter and he doesn't like me so I'm telling you. I've now done my duty." As a result of what happened here a grand jury was called and the grand jury heard the evidence that the sheriff would let him out on weekends and he'd go burglarize someplace and share what he stole with the sheriff. The grand jury said to contact him and ask him to give some specifics about one of the burglaries that only the burglar would know. We'll find out if he's telling the truth. He said, "I knocked off the Red Pantry Café on the corner of Ogden Avenue and 25th Street. I got in by kicking in the back door with my foot and I left a shoe print on the door so I had to get rid of the shoes afterward. When I went in I got into the cigarette machines, I got into jukeboxes and I stole the stuff out of there. One thing that was very peculiar is when I got the jukebox money, there were a lot of quarters with red fingernail polish on them. I don't know what that meant, but that's what I took." They called in the man that owned the Red Pantry Café and said, "What about the money in the jukebox? Is there anything unusual about it?" he said, "Oh yeah, part of those quarters are what I call show quarters. I put red fingernail polish on the ones I put in so I get them back. When somebody saw other people put in for music they'd play music. They were show coins. I got to keep them and 77 the guy that owned the music company would take all the others." That was proof that my guy stole the money out of the jukebox. Finally, they put the sheriff on trial. When it was known that the sheriff let the guy out, his attorney said, "Sheriff, isn't it true that the reason you let him out was to take him to your home and show him what good law abiding citizens lived like and to get a little spirituality in your life?" The guy said, "No, that isn't true." The lawyer asked the question, "Well, why did you let him out?" He said, "Greed, Mr. Alsup. Greed." They convicted the sheriff and the sheriff was put in jail down in Davis County. ROH: What year was this? RR: I don't know what year it was. I went back to Washington shortly after that. The sheriff came up to me one time when I was alone and said, "Richard, you son of bitch. I'll get you for this." He threatened me, but I didn't say anything about it. He went to jail and some of the other public officials lost their jobs and it kind of cleaned up the community. The interesting part of that is that one of the guys that we had as our plaintiff in our action against the county officials was the lieutenant governor's father. He ran a janitorial supply place in Ogden on 25th Street. His name was George Bell. His son is now the Lieutenant governor. It took courage on the part of his father to act as a plaintiff in the case. It was a taxpayer's lawsuit filed against him because they were crooked. The

Edward and Floris Anderson ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; The following is an oral history interview with Edward Kemp Anderson. Mr. Anderson was born on December 20, 1925 and raised in Lewiston, Utah. This interview discusses his early life before, during and shortly after World War II. On December 21, 1943 Edward received his draft notice the day after his 18th birthday. Edward married his wife Floris on December 30, 1943 just before departing for military service. He continued to serve in the war until 1946, one year after the war ended. The interview was conducted on May 27, 2012 by his son, Michael Edward Anderson in the Anderson home in Washington, Utah. Also present during the interview is Edward�s wife, Floris Thomas Anderson. ; 78p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound discs: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; i Oral History Program Edward Kemp Anderson Interviewed by Michael Edward Anderson 27 May 2012 ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Edward Kemp Anderson Interviewed by Michael Edward Anderson 27 May 2012 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection includes interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories date back to the early settlement of North Ogden, and cover various topics including the History of Fort Buenaventura, city government affairs, controversial issues, Latinos in Ogden, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Edward Kemp Anderson, an oral history by Michael Edward Anderson, 27 May 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Edward and Floris Anderson Edward and Floris Anderson 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Edward Kemp Anderson. Mr. Anderson was born on December 20, 1925 and raised in Lewiston, Utah. This interview discusses his early life before, during and shortly after World War II. On December 21, 1943 Edward received his draft notice the day after his 18th birthday. Edward married his wife Floris on December 30, 1943 just before departing for military service. He continued to serve in the war until 1946, one year after the war ended. The interview was conducted on May 27, 2012 by his son, Michael Edward Anderson in the Anderson home in Washington, Utah. Also present during the interview is Edward's wife, Floris Thomas Anderson. MEA: I was just thinking that the World War II experience is part of our family history and I think that it needs to be written down and shared with all of us. Not necessarily blood and guts kind of stuff, I'm not going to ask you those kinds of things just simple history. I always think it's neat to hear about when you were gone that mom paid for a house, you know while you were gone. EKA: Bought a house while I was gone for eight-hundred dollars. FTA: Two years and—I don't remember how much the payments were. MEA: So when I go into Lewiston then I tell the kids, "You know, they lived right there, that little house near Theurer's Market. Mom bought and paid for that." It's neat for them to think, "We have roots in Lewiston." FTA: Great grandpa was in the front of that in the shoe shop, he mended shoes there. 2 MEA: I always tell them about Uncle Alma. We used to go over to the flower shop and that there was a greenhouse there and we used to run around and play in that. Now, they don't see that of course, it's just a house there in Lewiston so there's a lot of history. None of us has that. These are just simple questions to help us get going and see what you think. The first thing I was wondering was, what were you doing before you joined the military? You weren't very old. EKA: I was just working on the farm. Worked on the farm and hauled coal for Elburn Kent. That's about it. I worked at the sugar factory too, didn't I? FTA: Oh yeah, you worked at the sugar factory. EKA: Campaigned the last month or two, but was paid good money. MEA: What was good money back then? EKA: Oh gosh, a buck and a quarter a day. FTA: He would have been going to high school if he hadn't quit school to go to work. The teacher wouldn't let him make up for it, so he just threw his books out the window and took off. EKA: Beet season is when you could make a lot of money topping beets. They'd give us a two week beet vacation, is what they called it, which you have your Spring break now, but it was to go to work to help the farmers get their crop in. Back in our days, two weeks wasn't enough. I worked about a month and went back to school and asked all my teachers for makeup work. They'd all give me the makeup work but one. He said, "You'll just have to flunk." I asked, "What do you 3 mean?" He said, "You don't make up work in mine. You missed that two weeks of school, you can't do anything about it— it's gone." There was another guy in there that was trying to get me to quit school all year. He was sitting clear in the back and I was up at the desk and I said, "Hey Don, you still want to quit school?" He said, "I sure do." I said, "Let's get out of here." We went over to the window that was open and threw our books out the window and went, and that was the last day of school for me. MEA: Wow. How old were you? EKA: I was seventeen. I only had a year to go to graduate. MEA: Did you ever go back and finish it? EKA: No. MEA: No? Didn't have to? EKA: Back in our days, college was something that only the rich and famous went to, there were very few college degrees and you didn't need the education back then. Now, if you haven't got that education, you're out of luck, but back in those days, why, if I could drive a dump truck I could get a job any place I wanted. When I got out of the service I figured I'd be able to go right to work, and out of the service, they didn't even have dump trucks like I used to drive. Big Utes and all that kind of stuff, didn't know nothing about that. MEA: How old were you when the war started? EKA: Let's see, I'd be sixteen—fifteen I guess. 4 FTA: Sixteen. MEA: So it was going while you were still in school? EKA: Oh yeah. MEA: Did you get drafted? EKA: Yep, got drafted. FTA: All that stuff is in that book you wanted. MEA: We should get that out. FTA: We could get it out when we get through with this. MEA: Did you join when you were seventeen? EKA: No. I turned eighteen on the 20th of December, and I got my notice on the 21st of December. MEA: Wow. So you knew it was coming up? EKA: It was kind of a bad deal there. The people that were on the draft board were farmers up there in Lewiston. What they did is they deferred all the boys on the farm. Anytime they had somebody like me, they would grab them to try and fill the quota so they could keep their boys at home. So we didn't get much of a chance as they did on the farm. MEA: So you got drafted pretty quick? EKA: Oh yeah. 5 MEA: Where were you living? I know you were living in Lewiston, but you weren't attending school. Were you guys dating? What were you doing? EKA: Oh we were running around since we were sixteen, but we— FTA: Not really dating. EKA: There were four girls and there were four of us. We weren't really dating but we would always go every place together. FTA: We would ride bikes and play the "Kick-the-Can" games. Things kids do at that age. EKA: It's different than when we were kids though. There wasn't any television. FTA: There wasn't anything. EKA: The only thing we had was the radio. FTA: You made your own fun. EKA: A multi-line telephone. It's changed so much that back in those days, all we had was each other and those kids we are talking about. That's the only fun we had, we didn't have any toys or anything else to play with. Had each other to play with and that's it. MEA: Pretty much married kids within the town. You dated and married in town. EKA: I got back out of the service and tried to make a living up in Lewiston. It wasn't there, so I moved to Ogden. I got a job and did like you, I drove a whole week. I 6 came back after one week and I wouldn't drive that distance for nobody. Of course, she was very good. She agreed with everything. So, I moved to Ogden. There weren't any places to rent so I was living in a chicken coup. Finally, I got a place to rent and we drove down. I just wouldn't drive that distance. FTA: That's when I was pregnant with Cathy. EKA: I'd come over Sardine Canyon, the old canyon. It was quite treacherous. The roads were slick and everything and I'd been driving for a week. I left Logan and I remember leaving Logan, but the next thing I remember was the lights in Brigham. We used to have to drive through Brigham, you didn't cut it off. I don't ever remember going over that canyon and right then I said, "That's my last trip." Not going to drive all those miles. Too many hours and not enough sleep. Too dangerous. Me and two other guys moved down to Ogden until we could find a place and bring our wives. MEA: Do you remember how you felt about the war in Europe, prior to Pearl Harbor? Actually, I guess Pearl Harbor was probably a big thing. EKA: You know when you're just a kid you don't really think about that stuff much. FTA: You don't know politics like they do now. You just do what you're told. EKA: We didn't have information. You can get worldwide information now instantly, and we didn't have all that. We didn't hear about all those things. Sure, you heard about Pearl Harbor, but that's about it. I mean, Japs attacked Pearl Harbor. Now 7 they'll tell you blow by blow, but we didn't have that back then. News was not any more than what they had to tell you. MEA: Just got newspaper once in a while? EKA: I had newspaper and radio. FTA: My folks never took a newspaper. We had a radio. MEA: What was the feeling back then? Sometimes you hear about Vietnam and how everybody was trying to avoid the draft. It seems like back then they were a little more patriotic about things. EKA: I believe it was more patriotic back then than it has been. But then, World War II, we had to fight it. They attacked at us, we had to fight it. Vietnam—and I can't even think of some of the others—Iraq and all this stuff, we didn't have to do that. We momentarily did it, and World War II is the only war we've won. All these others we've lost. Every one of them we lost. There's never been surrender since World War II. In World War II, Japan and Germany both surrendered. We won those wars, but these others they didn't. MEA: Just kind of declared we've had enough and that was the end of it. EKA: Yeah. MEA: Did you have a choice of what military service to join? EKA: Yes, I could've gone to any of them, Army, Navy or Marines. There wasn't any Air Force then; it was Army Air Force. I don't know why I went in the Army. I 8 always liked the water, and when I went down there they said, "You're physically conditioned and you can take your choice. Anything you want." I walked right up to the Navy desk, turned, and went over and signed up for the Army. MEA: Really? EKA: I'm alive so I guess I made the right choice. MEA: You made the right choice. Did you plan on the Navy all along then? EKA: We didn't know anything until they said, "You're eligible," so I didn't have a big plan. I liked the water and I thought I'd make a lot better Navy man than I would anything else, then I went and signed up for the Army. MEA: Where'd you go to join? Not there in Cache Valley, did you? EKA: Logan. MEA: Right in Logan? They just had a recruiter's office or something? EKA: There's a recruiters office in Logan. In fact, we left from Logan. I got on the train in Logan and went in the service. Of course, we just went to Ft. Douglas for a start, then from there to Texas. MEA: Was Texas a big camp? EKA: Camp Fannin, Texas. MEA: What did you think it would be like there? FTA: It was nothing but sand. 9 EKA: Only place I've ever been in my life where I could walk in the water up to my knees and have the sand blowing in my face at the same time. It wasn't a real good place. They didn't use up good ground for Army bases, they were just out on the sand. MEA: How long was boot camp? EKA: Six months, then overseas. I thought I was safe for a while because at that time they had a deal that said they can't send you overseas until your nineteen. They couldn't send you overseas as a replacement until your 19, but they can send you over if you're already assigned. So, I was overseas for three or four months before I turned nineteen. MEA: I can't imagine being that young and right in the middle of that stuff at eighteen years old. EKA: Just snot-nosed kids, that's all we were. MEA: Where did they send you first? EKA: We landed in Marsai, France. We hit the front line in the Vosges Mountains of France. They're mountains like High Creek— cold. We spent the winter in the Vosges Mountains. It was pretty chilly. EKA: Yeah, her and mom sent me a nice Christmas. A nice bathrobe and slippers and I was in a foxhole. FTA: The one thing you got that you really liked was that Bells candy. She made sure you had that. 10 EKA: Yeah she made homemade candy and it was sure good. She made it for the Bluebird in Logan. Then she'd send it over to me. MEA: Did you get any special training in camp to be prepared? EKA: Well, yes, I took a lot of demolitions training and went to an A&P (Ammunitions Pioneer) platoon after I finished basic training. It was a little different in the fact that you did patrol work all the time and diffused mines and stuff like that. We knew how to use explosives. One time, we ran into a dynamite cellar and the lieutenant wanted me to go in there and take that dynamite out. He said, "You have the dynamite, take the dynamite out." I said, "No problem." I kicked the door down and it should have blown up. I looked in there and the nitro was dripping out of those dynamite sticks. I just backed out of there right quick. He said, "Well that's a direct order." I said, "Then fire me. I won't go in there and touch that dynamite. I'll blow it up, but I won't touch it." Another officer came by that knew what was going on and chewed that officer out and let me off the hook. Once that nitroglycerin comes out of your stick and a drop of it gets on the floor, it explodes. MEA: Wow. EKA: I handled explosives and stuff, but also every time you'd lose people on the line they'd replace them with us until they could get replacements. We spent a lot of time on the front lines. If they'd get hit real heavy, they might lose fifty or sixty people. They'd send us up and we would take their place until they'd get replacements up there. You've got to have so many people up there or they'll walk over you. 11 MEA: Who were you serving under then? EKA: General Patch in the 7th Army. Patton had the 7th, then they took that away from him and gave him the 3rd Army and gave Patch the 7th. MEA: Were you in France all the time? EKA: France and Germany. Mostly Germany because we fought out of France that winter. We busted out of France and got into Germany. When we were in France, it was actually easier because you fought around the towns in France. You tried to preserve France. But when we got to Germany, we fought right in the towns up there and were blowing the towns up. We didn't care if we blew the German towns up or not, but, we tried to conserve as much as we could in France. We lost a lot of people because you didn't want to blow this building down, or this church house, or that cathedral up on the hill. They'd want you to preserve them. All the time that's where the snipers were. So, we tried to take them without blowing them up and it'd get a lot of people killed. MEA: Can you tell me about your most memorable experience? EKA: It's a funny thing. Most of the stuff I don't even remember. I didn't remember right after it. If you read my bronze star, for example, I can remember everything about that. I can remember getting these people who were wounded. I have no idea how I got them out of the town. I have no idea how we got back to the line. It's all a blank. I don't know I guess there are certain things we just blank out on and we don't remember them. A lot of the things I can think of some of the stuff. After this 12 longer period when I think about something I think, "How did that ever happen?" or "Am I dreaming?" There's a lot of stuff that I don't know. MEA: Maybe it's kind of a blessing. EKA: Oh, I think it is. I think it is. It happened several times to me, but that was the biggest thing. We had twenty-eight people that we rescued out of that town. I can remember the Germans were moving out and there was a big convoy. We were just hiding from Germans and trying to find these wounded people and we found them, and I can't remember anything else. MEA: Was that in France or in Germany? EKA: That was in Germany. Well, I'm not sure. It was still winter. It could have been France. We could have still been up in the Vosges Mountains. MEA: Did you just get word that there were some people down and you had to get them out? EKA: We lost Charter Company. We lost C-company, the whole company. They wanted a volunteer group to go see if they could find them and I volunteered. Not to be a hero, but because I was freezing to death. I was in that foxhole and they said they were looking for volunteers, "Take me." We got out of the foxhole and we walked all night long. I don't know how many miles. Twenty miles or so I'd imagine. We pulled into that town and we had lost the whole company. There were 28 people left in the whole company. MEA: How many are in a company? 13 EKA: Oh gosh, I don't know. I don't remember. That's just a small amount, anyway. MEA: Was that part of that article I read? It was a newspaper article I read that mom showed me in the book of remembrance. It talked about a Lewiston boy. Is that the time you volunteered? EKA: That was the first time she found out I was in combat. MEA: Really? FTA: We weren't smart enough I guess. EKA: Salt Lake Tribune. FTA: We wrote letters back and forth all the time, but— EKA: The war was just about over when they came out, so there wasn't much left. There is so much that I don't remember. I remember just before the war ended I got the shakes real bad and hid it from the Lieutenant for a long time. We'd go out on patrol and I was fine, but I'd come back and sit down and just start shaking. He caught me one day and he said he was sending me back to rest camp. I said, "No you're not, the war is going to end any day and I want to be with the guys. I'm not going to get killed after what I've been through." He said, "I'm not worried about you getting killed. I'm worried about killing the guys who could kill me. Get on the truck and get out of here." I went back to rest camp and the war did end while I was back in rest camp. I wanted to be with the company when the war ended, but I wasn't. I was in rest camp. I had only been back there 14 a couple of days when the war ended. I wanted to be up there on the front lines when the war ended, but I was back in Marsai, France. MEA: Was it a hospital kind of place? EKA: Well, it was just a rest area. Just vacation to go back there and have nice hotels and stuff. Good places for you to stay with three meals a day and just rest, that's all. MEA: What was it like to hear the war ended? Must have been quite a celebration. EKA: Those French people. They got the news before we did. We were eating supper and all of a sudden those French gals working in there got screaming and running around and we found out it was over. It was an experience you could say. There hadn't been any street lights on in Marsai, France for years, and they turned the lights on. People were out there in droves just looking at the lights. French people. I'm too soft-hearted, Mike. Not much I can talk about. Cathy wanted me to do something or talk about temple and I can't talk about the temple. There are so many miracles. When you're working in the temple, you see them happen every day, but you just can't talk about it. MEA: Some things are just too sacred. FTA: They are. You try to tell somebody and you can't do it. MEA: Sometimes I think the Lord blesses us with experiences that he expects us to keep to ourselves too. EKA: Well, that's probably true too. 15 MEA: Whenever there's a time you have an opportunity to share it and you feel impressed that it's what the Lord wants you to do, that's when you do it. I can't imagine being in an area where the lights were always out because they'd been fearful of the enemy and then to see them. FTA: They had blackouts. You couldn't even have lights on in the house when you guys were blacked out. EKA: I got to see a lot of Germany. After the war was over, the division came home and I didn't have enough points to come home. So, they transferred me to the third division, 15th infantry. I drove a truck all over Germany for almost a year before I got enough points to come home. I had enough points to get discharged, but I didn't have enough points to get on the ship. You figure how many people they'd send overseas. Millions of soldiers over there taking seniority rides to bring them back. They didn't fly anybody. We rode boats back. Ships are all you had back in those days. They had a few aircraft, but nothing they could move a whole bunch of people with. The officers would get to fly back, but we just had to wait until there was room on the boats and the ships so we could come back. I had to spend almost a year— nine to ten months—driving a truck over there. They did that for me, they changed my MOS number to a truck driver. I said, "If I've got to stay over here I don't want to walk around with a rifle on my shoulder, I want to do something else. Give me a military driver's license, I'll drive." I never drove a five speed transmission and 10-wheeler. I figured out of all the other vehicles in the service, I want to get one of them I can drive. Of course, I got a 10-wheeler. 16 Spent all night long in the motor pool that night and drove that truck around the motor pool finding where all the gears were. MEA: You ever remember any of the men in your units? Ever keep in contact with them? EKA: No, I hear about more recently in the Marines, they have get-togethers and all that kind of stuff. We never did get close to each other. You get too close then it's too hard to lose them. So, I just never made too many friends. I had a couple of friends though. Ira Sally, he was a professional wrestler. He was my buddy I went with him all the time. Just never did get close to them. Reece, gosh, their whole company knew each other and knew them by name and everything. I never did do that. We just stayed by ourselves. Didn't want to make good friends because you make a good friend and then you'd lose them. It was just easier not to make them in the first place. What you want me to talk about in comparison to what there is today it just— MEA: It's so much different when you look at what happens when a soldier is out on the battlefields now compared to what it was like when you were there. I mean, now they have all these modern things and can fight a war with enemies that they don't even see from a distance. That wasn't the case for you guys. EKA: That's true. MEA: You think about back in Book of Mormon times it was even worse than that because it was hand to hand with swords and spears. I think the loss of life because of what wasn't available to you then is certainly different than now. 17 EKA: Even what you see on television. Thousands of men on each side back in biblical days. They'd come together and kill thousands and there would be thousands of people laying all over. It wasn't that bad. MEA: I was just wondering if you ever received any medals and citations. You talk about the bronze star, what was that? EKA: That was for going beyond and above the line of duty, but it just depends on where you are and what time it is. Everybody does spectacular things when they have to. Some of us got cited for it and some of us didn't. I could have got a Purple Heart, but I was always against that Purple Heart. If you get killed you get a Purple Heart. If you cut your finger, you get a Purple Heart. I never did think much of the Purple Heart for that reason because there were some recipients that really earned it, but then there were some of them that just got it as a gift. We were out in our three quarter ton truck carrying some ammo and a bunch specialized stuff and we hit a land mine. It blew one front wheel right off the vehicle and blew us all out of the vehicle. We were all bruised up and we could hardly move. The guy that was driving, it's cold there of course and he had put a regular winter glass, house glass and a piece of plywood across there for a door on the truck. That glass broke and cut his face. One thing about a Purple Heart, you have to draw blood to have a Purple Heart. That guy that was driving the truck inside that got a little scratch on his face got a Purple Heart. The rest of us just almost got killed back there but we didn't draw blood so we didn't get a Purple Heart. 18 MEA: You just drove over a mine? EKA: Yeah. MEA: Well, we kind of talked about what everyday life was like there that's for sure. I always think it's interesting when you were talking about mom sending that gift over and not knowing where you are. It's kind of interesting that they didn't allow you to say, "This is where I am." They didn't allow that? EKA: Well I could have told her. I couldn't have told her the exact location, but I could have told her what I was doing and everything. FTA: They censored your letter. EKA: I just didn't want her and mom and dad to know that I was getting shot at. FTA: They black it out. They didn't let it come through. MEA: So you actually got letters? EKA: I'd send letters. Well, I'd say I sent her letters all the time, but she probably got twenty or thirty letters in one bunch. I'd get the same from her, a whole stack of letters. I hadn't had any letters for a month and then I'd get a whole month's supply of letters. FTA: You'd try to write every day, but what is there every day? MEA: People would write to you but it'd be months before you actually received the letter? How did you know what was going on at home? 19 EKA: Didn't. We didn't know after we got over there. FTA: Probably just as well because then you wouldn't worry about all that. Worry about yourself there. MEA: I'd get homesick wondering what was going on at home. EKA: You do, but I think the whole thing is the Lord just takes care of you. As far as being scared is concerned, when I got the letter that said, "Greetings," I was scared until I got home, but nothing that I couldn't handle. Like I said, I think the Lord just takes care of you and makes it to where you can do what you have to do, that's all. EKA: Some guys got sick on the boat over. They didn't think they were going to make it. Thought they were going to die from sea sickness. We had two guys in our outfit that they took off the boat on a stretcher. I mean, they were so weak they hadn't eaten. We were on the water for fifteen days and they hadn't done anything but throw up for fifteen days. I never got sick. I was hungry all the time. All of them got sick. That's fine because then I could go down to mess hall and get anything I wanted. MEA: Did you always have enough to eat? EKA: No. On the boat we did. They only fed you two meals a day, but they were substantial meals. MEA: I remember one time I was asking you about Christmas and you told me that you were able to get a good turkey dinner. 20 EKA: President Roosevelt said that every man would get a turkey dinner on Christmas and we did. Oh man, I hadn't had a meal for months. Just cold sea rations and K rations. Ate this meal and we were all just sick, but it sure tasted good going down. They had jeeps and they'd bring food up in jeeps as close as they could get and then hand carry it the rest of the way to the front line. We got our hot meal. MEA: What was Christmas like? Just another day? EKA: Just another day. You see some of these picture shows where the Germans and the Americans both back off, but I never did see it. MEA: Didn't happen for you, huh? EKA: No, just one day the same as another. MEA: Did you have any reminders of home with you? Did you carry anything? Picture from mom? EKA: No, I don't believe I did. FTA: Yeah you did, I think. EKA: I don't know. Did I? I probably did. FTA: He threw them all away when he landed at Ft. Douglas. He threw everything away. EKA: It was coming back, not going over. See, you weren't allowed to carry anything that they could identify you by. If you got picked up you weren't supposed to have 21 anything in your pockets or anything like that. Not a picture or an address or anything like that. All you had to do was say your name, rank and serial number when you got picked up. So we didn't really carry anything. FTA: Had your dog tags and that's it, wasn't it? EKA: Oh yeah, I carried them. That's the same thing as giving your name and serial number is all. So they could identify you when you get your head blown off. MEA: When we were just little boys that you bought us some Springfield 30-06 military rifles. You used to tell me that in the winter those were pretty reliable, but those automatics weren't so good in the winter. What did you carry? Did you switch out? EKA: I switched for a couple months there. I happened to find one. They didn't issue them. The snipers use that Springfield like I got you guys. MEA: With the peep sight? EKA: No, it didn't have fancy scopes on them. I could knock the scope off because I couldn't use that and use a peep sight just exactly like the ones you have. MEA: When I couldn't shoot? EKA: I don't know, dog gone thing. That sight fell apart and everything else. You had the worst luck when it comes to guns. FTA: Guns? Not only guns, everything he got. 22 MEA: I just know dad's a dead eye shot with that peep sight. I couldn't hit anything and he shot a porcupine off a tree and said, "There ain't nothing wrong with that gun." So, you're a pretty good shot. EKA: Well, it was the same peep sight on the M-1, on the automatic too. MEA: Oh really? EKA: That's the same sight that all your military weapons had. So it wasn't like changing sights, it was the same thing. MEA: So you used an M-1 and then you used the Springfield? EKA: Yeah. They'd freeze up and you could hardly open them. The bolt, you could grab that and even if it's frozen up you could grab that and open it. It only had 5 shots and the M-1 had 8. At the same time, I'd rather have five that I know will shoot than 8 that I didn't know if they would or not. I think you've seen in some of your war shows— guys pounding on their M-1—trying to get them to open so they could get them cocked and shoot. MEA: Not too reliable. EKA: They probably were, probably what you get in your own mind. At times I didn't know, but I'm sure it was very few. All they have to do is not open once and your show is over. I went to a Springfield for a month or two there. In fact, I mostly didn't carry an M-1, I carried a Carbine. MEA: Oh really? 23 EKA: Yeah, I carried the Carbine because we usually had other stuff to carry besides just the rifle. We carried Carbines so we could carry ammo. When we'd go on patrol we'd like to go on patrol with the Carbine a Grease Gun, or a little automatic. Full automatic Grease guns is what they'd call them. That's just what they looked like is a little Grease gun with an iron stalk and everything. A lot of times when you go on patrol you were just trying not to let the Germans rest and keep them scared. You'd go up there and the artillery observers would spot a congregation of them. They'd take a patrol in there, sneak up on them, throw a couple of hand grenades and empty out a couple of those guns. Then they'd turn and run and we'd stay and fight. We'd just turn and run back for the line. So when they lay down and tried to get a little rest, in the back of their mind they're thinking, "Are those guys going to come and bother us again?" We'd just keep them nervous and worried all the time. I carried a full automatic for a while and called in a raid platoon. All we did was go out and raid camps like that. That was good duty too. You talk about food, we'd have to go out every night in front of the line companies and in the day time we went behind the lines and got hot meals. That was pretty good. As long as we didn't mess up and give ourselves away, you figured, those guys we were raiding weren't shooting back. You're looking for someone to shoot at so you go throw grenades and shoot a couple of clips of the automatic and take off. Those guys are still docked, they're not trying to shoot back. By the time they wise up, we're gone. As long as we didn't get caught going through the lines getting back through there. That was pretty good because we'd get good hot meals. 24 MEA: I know you've seen the movies with Bob Hope when he does the USO shows. Did you ever see any of them? EKA: I've seen one of them. MEA: Did you? Who did you see? EKA: Bob Hope. In fact, he was late to the show because he tried to run a road block and they shot at him. Shot the gas tank out. Stupid. He put on a good show. It was their dirty show, but not real dirty. Well, today they would be clean shows, but back then they were dirty shows. He put on a real good show. I don't remember the girl that he had with him, but he had girls and he told some jokes. Some of the jokes were pretty raunchy and some of the girls would leave you a lot of thoughts to think about what they were thinking. The everyday movies are worse now than the Bob Hope shows back in those days. For instance, Bob Hope got an awful big fine on the radio before they had television. He said, "The new women's swimsuit is going to consist of two thimbles and a cork." They cut him off, but it was too late. He got it out before he got cut off. Oh man, was he ever reprimanded and got a big stiff fine for saying that thing. MEA: Things were different then. EKA: Nobody would think anything about that now. Back then that was a terrible thing to say. MEA: I just remember watching the variety shows with you back in the good old days when they had them, and always watching Bob Hope T.V. 25 EKA: I only got to see one of his shows, but I did get to see one. He put on a show in Stuttgart, Germany when we were there. MEA: Did you ever play any pranks on your buddies? EKA: Not to speak of, but they were pulled that's for sure. MEA: Did you ever get to come home? EKA: Once. After I finished basic training, I got to come home one time and that was it. MEA: Once you went overseas that was it? EKA: I went overseas and stayed there until I got discharged. MEA: How long were you there? You said you had to drive trucks for nine months. EKA: I was overseas about a year and a half. MEA: What were you doing all that time, Mom? Just worrying? FTA: Working. That's when I worked for Dr. Kragen. My first family. EKA: I never realized how much of the stuff I forgot all about until you asked me questions. Most of it left me. Well, that was a few years ago. FTA: Well, that was over sixty years ago. MEA: What was the year when you went? EKA: Forty-four. FTA: We were married on the 30th of December of 1943. 26 MEA: So you'd been married a year? EKA: Before I went in? Just a couple of months. MEA: Really? Married a couple months and then away you went? That's not time to have a relationship. FTA: No. I don't know if we'd have done it differently. We'd done it because he was leaving and they had a special section at the temple for military. That's why ours is on the 30th. EKA: The temple was closed, but they opened it up for one day for the military guys. MEA: A bunch of you just showed up and went through your endowments and you got married after? FTA: At Logan Temple. You had to climb up all those stairs. Back then you couldn't get anything like a wedding dress or anything. This other couple had a veil made out of that knit stuff and every step she took to go up there she'd rip, rip, rip. She'd step on it. They were the first to get married and when the guy told them to kiss, they gave a big smack. Grandma Anderson said, "Don't you do that." She didn't want to get embarrassed. It was quite a deal that day. A special day. A day to remember. MEA: Were you in a wedding dress and everything? EKA: No, she didn't have one. She borrowed the clothes that she got married in. FTA: Aunt Ivy gave me a blouse and a skirt. 27 EKA: A blouse and a white skirt. FTA: The rest was just the temple issued. MEA: Do you remember the sealer? EKA: I don't. FTA: It's probably on our marriage license. MEA: Where'd you go on your honeymoon? FTA: Salt Lake on the Galloping Goose MEA: What's the Galloping Goose? EKA: A train that used to go to Lewiston—the Utah Idaho Central. MEA: Is that where you got on? EKA: No we got on in Logan and stayed at the temple square hotel. FTA: We stayed there also when he came home. Didn't we? EKA: No, we stayed at…I can't remember the name of it now. FTA: New House. EKA: New House Hotel. Mom and dad got us a room there. We did stay at the temple square hotel. In fact, when we stayed there it was a brand new hotel. It hadn't been opened very long. FTA: We didn't even know where to go to eat or anything. 28 MEA: I was going to ask you, what did you do for your honeymoon? Go out to eat? Go to a movie? FTA: We went about two feet and then to the hotel because we were scared we'd get lost. EKA: Country hicks. We were afraid we'd get lost if we went any place. There was a drug store on the corner there that had pretty good food; we'd eat there most of the time. We didn't do much of anything. FTA: Well, I've never been any place in my life. MEA: So, Salt Lake was quite an adventure? FTA: I'd been to Salt Lake once when my grandma took me. EKA: We rode on that Galloping Goose and when we got to Salt Lake, we got off the train and were afraid we'd get lost so we hailed a cab down. I said, "Can you take us to the temple square hotel?" He said, "Yeah, it's right there." The old Vanberger station, there was just an alley between that and the temple square hotel. We got off the train about twenty feet from the train was the hotel. MEA: They knew you were from out of town. FTA: There was this box on the wall, we didn't know what it was and we didn't dare mess with it. Finally, found out it was the radio, wasn't it? 29 EKA: Well, it wasn't the radio it was just a speaker. What they had was a central place where they could play music, and you just had to push the button on the box. I didn't know whether it was for room service or what it was. FTA: What was it that we were just laughing about? Oh, somebody next door was celebrating the New Year and light was showing through. We were laughing our heads off. Remember? Trying to listen to what was going on in the other room. EKA: We went to one station while we were there. I can't remember where we went, but we went to a live show. MEA: How long were you in Salt Lake? EKA: I think we stayed there two nights. FTA: Then, we went back home and stayed with his parents until he left. EKA: Yeah, we stayed with mom and dad until I left. MEA: How long? EKA: A couple months. When I got home, I owned a home. She had bought a home. MEA: For eight-hundred dollars. FTA: His uncle gave us a stove. I bought a kitchen set and a bedroom set. Mother and dad gave us a couch. Back in those days, we didn't even have a fridge. We had an ice box. EKA: I don't think we had a telephone, did we? 30 FTA: No. EKA: I didn't think so. Now, you've got these things here that… MEA: I know. When you got home did you stay and work in Lewiston, or is that when you left? EKA: I stayed in Lewiston for a couple of years, but just couldn't make enough money. FTA: We tried the floral business. EKA: We bought into the floral business with Uncle Al and Aunt Ida. There just wasn't enough money there. Both of us got out of that and I worked as an auto mechanic up there at the Jim Bridge for a while. FTA: That and the sugar factory. EKA: I took the sugar factory and I drove a dump truck down the road from Richmond to Trenton on those back roads. I helped build those back roads. I was working at the sugar factory and driving dump truck. I got scared and quit the dump truck. I wasn't getting hardly any sleep at all. I'd go down there, take out that dump truck and go dump my load. I'd come back in we'd be talking and they'd say, "Boy, did you see that big herd of cows on the side of the road?" I didn't see them. One time I came back there and they said, "Those kids are going to get killed playing on the side of the road there." I never saw those kids. Right then I decided, "I can't be doing this. I've got to quit." I'd work graveyard at the sugar factory from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. and had to be at the dump truck from 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 31 p.m. The guys would cover for me for that last five to ten minutes while I'd go get on the other job. I was only home about five hours a day. It just wasn't enough. MEA: What was it like coming home? When the war was ended and you came home, was there welcome in the community? Or you just came home? EKA: No, just came home. They showed all that stuff about World War II and the big parade back at New York, but that wasn't anybody that had been in combat. They were the state side "Joes" that never went overseas in the first place. They had a whole bunch of big celebrations, but we were fighting people and we didn't have any celebrations at all. We went quiet and we came back quiet. FTA: I don't know if they had anything in Ogden. EKA: Seemed to me like you said they did because you said that Craig had taken you there. I think it was in Ogden they took you and they had a parade or something. They did right after the war ended though. They had some celebrations, but when I went, I went all quiet and when I came back, I came back all quiet. Only trouble I had was I couldn't take any prisoners to Uncle Ed on the farm. They had a German prisoner of war camp in Preston and they'd use these prisoners up on the farm. Uncle Ed was having a rough time and I was helping him all I could. I said, "Let's go get some prisoners." He said, "They won't work." I said "Oh yes they will, I guarantee you they'll work." So he said, "Alright, let's go." Had to be armed, so I went and got my shot gun and we went to Preston. We got ten of them all ready to go and they found out I was just out of the service from Germany and they wouldn't let me have them. They were afraid I'd kill them. 32 FTA: Yeah, they'd top beets right next door to the Doctors where I worked we'd watch them out there topping beets? MEA: It's interesting that they'd bring them all the way there to Lewiston from Preston. EKA: Yeah that was a prisoner of war camp in Preston. MEA: They must spread them all around the country. EKA: Yeah they were. FTA: Not in one place. EKA: I don't know why they were still there because that was a year after the war was over. They hadn't sent them home or something. I don't remember what the deal was, but I know when I first got out of the service they had a prisoner of war camp in Preston. Crazy world. FTA: You're getting a history lesson. MEA: I didn't know that at all. MEA: We're going to look at this book of remembrance and dads going to share some of the things he remembers about the stuff that mom saved. EKA: That's Ira Sally, the professional wrestler that used to know. MEA: He used to tell us a little bit about him. Is this over in France? EKA: In Germany. MEA: In Germany where it's all bombed out? 33 EKA: I didn't even know you had all those pictures of me. FTA: It's not something you have out every day. EKA: You can see that we're real smart taking pictures, aren't we? All those shadows; can't see anything anyway. This is in Germany. MEA: You really bombed them out it looks like. EKA: I have a hard time seeing much about it. This is showing you everything pretty much bombed out. Their fortresses are houses over there. They're all cement rock and cement houses with walls a foot and half thick. Nowadays it wouldn't mean very much, but back when a flight of B-17's went over Stuttgart, they would spend 3 minutes over Stuttgart and level it. The whole town was leveled in 3 minutes. Now, they shoot one shell over there and level it. Back then that was a lot of bombs they used over there. That picture right there, for example, that's the Carbine I carried. That's a German pistol I had at the time. A guy offered me more money for that pistol than what it was worth. MEA: This is an article that I don't know if I've seen. It says, "Lewiston Man was Cited With the 100th Division of the 7th Army in Germany 1st Battalion Headquarters Company. The 398th infantry has been awarded the Meritorious Service Unit Plaque. EKA: Meritorious Service Wreath, I forgot that. That's the one that's on the sleeve. I don't know whether you took that off or not too. She stripped my jacket and all my ribbons and everything on it. She took all that stuff off and I didn't know how 34 to put it back on. It was put on there in the right places by the right people and she took it all off and washed it. Its wool and it shrunk. It was half big enough for me after she got through with it. I'd like to have had that. FTA: That was a terrible thing to do. I was trying to be so nice. EKA: I don't even know what awards I received. I forgot about that Meritorious Service Wreath. MEA: It says, "By direction of the President… the Meritorious Service Unit Plaque is awarded to the First Battalion Headquarters Company, 398th Infantry for superior performance of duty and achievement of a high standard discipline. The 100th (Century) Division, of which the 398th Infantry is a part, fought through the Vosges Mountains in France, cracking the proposed German Winter line there, seiged the famous Maginot Line city of Bitche for three months and finally captured it for the first time in the city's two-hundred years history. Breached the Siegfried Line and drew the Germans on the Southern end of the Western front back across the Rhine River at Ludwigshafen and deep into Southern Germany. Most recently, before the wars end in Europe, the 100th had captured the key Nazi rail and communications center of Heilbronn, after a bitter nine day battle. The fanatical German stand at the city 100,000 was called the most determined defense the Nazis put up of their homes soil. Later, the 100th cooperated with the first French Army. EKA: There's the whole thing right there. MEA: You didn't remember that? 35 EKA: Bitche, France was why we had such a hard time taking that. There's a big cave up above the town there and they'd take 88 artillery guns. They had two 88's up there and they'd shoot direct fire at you. It's a shell about that big around and any time we moved, they'd shoot at us like that and we couldn't knock them out. Finally, we did. I guess that must have been an enormous cave because Sally Berlin, we'd listen to her when we'd get a chance. We went up above on top of the mountains and led charges down on rope and blew the cave up and Sally Berlin came on that night and said we got the name of the "Bloody Butchers of Bitche" because they said we killed over two-hundred people in that cave. They had a fort in that town, an old Robin Hood type fort and they supplied the Maginot Line. It was talking about that in there. They had underground all the way to these pillboxes they could send people or guns or ammunition and anything they wanted from that fort. They'd come up from under the ground. Everything was underground. Bitche was Maginot Line, but the Siegfried Line was the same thing. They had a central place, we'd go there and hit those pillboxes and take them. Figure everything was taken and go on through to the next row of pillboxes. We'd be getting shot at from the ones we just cleared and we couldn't figure out how. That's how, because we'd get too hot for them and they'd leave the pillboxes. We'd get there and throw hand grenades in there which would kill anything in the pillboxes, but they wouldn't be in there. After we'd get by they'd go back up in the pillboxes and start shooting at us again. "Bloody Butchers of Bitche." MEA: That was quite a big deal then to get that handed. 36 EKA: Yeah, that was a rough stand there we had. We lost a lot of people in that. The "Bloody Butchers of Bitche." MEA: She was a German radio announcer? EKA: Yeah, that was just amazing. We landed at Marsai, France and took all our patches and everything off before we left the states. Everything was top secret. We landed in Marsai and Sally Berlin came on the radio and welcomed the 100th Division. They knew all about us. They knew how many of us there was and they knew where we were going to go, where we were going to hit the front lines. They knew everything. We just laughed about it because everything turned out that way. Your people tell you that they'd make the password up to five days in advance. She said, "Get your pencils and papers out. Here's your password for the next thirty days." And she was right. MEA: So they knew everything. EKA: Knew everything about us. That deal called us the "Bloody Butchers of Bitche," it wasn't 30 minutes after we blew that cave up that she'd come on the radio and tell us what was done and how many people were in that cave. MEA: Enemy behind your lines or something. EKA: She did us a lot of good really. We just loved to listen to her programs. She played music on it all the time and do you think your loved ones are waiting for you back there and all that kind of stuff. We just got a kick out of it and we loved the music she played, so it was just very interesting. When we landed in Marsai, 37 France, she came right on the radio told us we'd landed and that we were going to meet German crack troops in the Vosges Mountains in France and that's exactly where we went. How she knew, I don't know. There had to be somebody on our side of the line who was feeding her information. A spy of some kind. She knew a lot more than we did. We didn't know where we were going, but she sure did. MEA: This other thing says, "Edward K. Anderson 3-9-9-2-6-8-8-5 Private 1st Class 398th Infantry Regiment for Meritorious Achievement in action during the period of 6 November 1944 to the 23rd of April 1945 in France and Germany as an ammunition bearer in an ammunition and pioneer platoon. Private Anderson performed his duties commendably throughout this period of combat operations. He displayed outstanding courage and was initiative on 5th December near Lincoln, France where 6 members of his platoon, he helped to evacuate six casualties under intense enemy fire for several hours aided his comrades in riding off a desperate hostile counterattack. The repelling of which substantially contributed to the capture of Wingen. He entered military service from Lewiston, Utah." MEA: So, your dog tag number, you remember it still? EKA: 3-9-9-2-6-8-8-5. MEA: Here's another group of you in the mountains. It says, "Just outside Bitche, just before we made our attack on the 15th of March. There's a pillbox behind us that were in for borage of artillery. Just came in and the German planes striked and 38 so the battered pillbox looks pretty good." So it's a picture of a pillbox, group of you around it. I wouldn't have known what a pillbox was if you hadn't told me. There's a pretty handsome guy with his shirt off. It says, "My darling, the paper's not very good, so I am sending the magazine with all the pictures." These look like pictures of France and some of the sites. Cathedrals. FTA: Why don't you see that sketch of your dad? MEA: I saw that. Who did that? FTA: Who did that for you? Do you remember? MEA: There's a name on it but I can't read it. MEA: It says Sally. FTA: I wondered if he was an artist. MEA: Who was Sally? EKA: Don't remember that either. EKA: He was a professional wrestler. His wife got after him until he had to give it up. Then he went into show business. Got him a little band called, "Yodeling Ike and the Texas Rangers." He said, "There wasn't any one of us that'd been to Texas." "Yodeling Ike and the Texas Rangers." He could yodel that's for sure. MEA: "So it's your first day in the Army and you want a raise in pay? Certainly its worth more now after I learned the work would be easier." You've got a bunch of postcards. 39 MEA: Here's another article on the 100th. "Once again the Wheel of Fortune brings the 100th division rest inside the fold of VI Corps guiding sentry division for the third time with the headquarters under which it received its baptism of fire. In war, Major General Withers a duress 100th division, served twice under the Veteran Corps direction. First, upon entering the line in November 1941, in the Vosges Mountains and last in the struggle for Heilbronn in March and April of this year, separated and ordered under other control in each of these campaigns, the division recently became an occupational unit of the headquarters. The woods were dense and the hills steep in Vosges." EKA: Sergeant Ingel Britson was the platoon sergeant. Lieutenant Jamson was a Lieutenant. He was the one that sent me to the rest camp that said he's not worried about me getting shot he's worried about me shooting the guys going to shoot him. MEA: It talks about the atomic bomb. Were you back home by then? EKA: No, when they dropped the atomic bomb, the 100th division hadn't come home then. We were preparing to go to Japan, but decided to stay there when they dropped the atomic bomb and ended the war. The 100th division came home and I didn't have enough points to come home. MEA: So after all you been through there getting you prepared to go, another one? EKA: If they hadn't used the atomic bomb we probably would have made it over there, but they figured a lot of people were going to get killed when we get to Japan. We didn't have to get Japan, they surrendered before we had. 40 MEA: This says, "August 6th, President Truman today announced that an atomic bomb has been used against Japan for the first time with power equal to 20,000 tons of TNT. In a statement issued at the White House, Mr. Truman revealed that sixteen hours ago, sometime Sunday, and American airplane dropped one of the new bombs on Hiroshima, an important Japanese Army base. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons. He said it had more than 2,000 times the blast power of British grand slam which is the largest bomb ever in the history of warfare." EKA: A lot of history in that book right there. MEA: I'll say. You have a German swastika. Japan surrenders. BJ Day. MacArthur. Douglas MacArthur must have been there. You have a long thing called, "Loving a Soldier." A poem? Here's your citation for the Bronze Star. This is the same one that I read. FTA: I can't believe there's so much history in that book. MEA: You got a recommendation for the Sustained Superior Performance Award. "Twenty-five Aircraft Sheet Metal Recruiters WG-10 and intermediate levels." That was at Hill Field. Well, we got quite a bit. Anything you want to add? EKA: There's stuff I forgot all about, then you see stuff in there that I don't remember happened. FTA: You got those two German friends that were writing to you telling you to come home and never answered back. Weganer, something? 41 EKA: Vernor. A lot of things I should have done and didn't. FTA: Like what? EKA: Answer those kid's letters. 42 Appendix Pill Box 1945. Just Outside of Bitche just before we made our attack on the 15th of March. It is a pill box behind us that we were in. A borage of artillery just came in, and the German planes just striked, so the battered pillbox looked pretty good to us. Ludwigsburg, Germany Bitche, France St. Lewis, France Bitche, France My Darling, the paper is not very good so I am sending the magazine with all the pictures. 43 44 Ludwigsburg, Germany Bitche, France St. Lewis, France 45 Bitche, France Bitche, France Bitche, France Ludwigsburg, Germany Bitche, France 46 47 Lt. Jamson our platoon Lt. and Sgt. Ingel Britson our platoon Sgt. Ira A. Salley, Carver Street Waterville Maine. Ludwigsburg, Germany Stuttgart, Germany This picture is not just a blur, it is just the view of Stuttgart. My Darling, this is a picture of us when we were pretty regal and as you can see it wouldn't hurt us to get close to a razor and also get about 2 inches cut off my hair. 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78

Bernice C. Stromberg ; The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, WeberState University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ; 40p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Bernice C. Stromberg Interviewed By Rebecca Ory Hernandez 3 October 2012 24 October 2012 i ii Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Bernice C. Stromberg Interviewed by Rebecca Ory Hernandez 3 October 2012 24 October 2012 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in the University Archives, which also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Communities Oral History Collection include interviews of citizens from several different walks of life. These interviews were conducted by Stewart Library personnel, Weber State University faculty and students, and other members of the community. The histories cover various topics and chronicle the personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Stromberg, Bernice C., an oral history by Rebecca Ory Hernandez, 3 and 24 October 2012, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Bernice Stromberg October 24, 2012 1 Abstract: Bernice sat down with Rebecca Ory Hernandez in October of 2012 to share stories of growing up and moving several times with her family in Southern Utah. Her father was a well-respected music teacher. Bernice is the widow of Mr. C. William "Bill" Stromberg of Ogden, UT, who served on the founding Board of the Stewart Education Foundation. During this time, Bernice became very good friends with Elizabeth Stewart. Bernice is also a very good friend of former Weber State University President, F. Ann Milner. Since Bill's passing in 2010, Bernice has remained a regular attendee of many WSU events, especially football games. The Stromberg Complex is named in Bernice and Bill's honor. ROH: Today is Wednesday, October 3, 2012. We are in the home of Bernice Stromberg in Ogden, Utah. I am Rebecca Ory Hernandez with Weber State University and the Stewart Library. Why don't you tell me when and where you were born? BS: I was born in Kanab, in Kane County Utah, on January 12, 1927. My dad taught music in the high school down there. The day I was born, my dad and the doctor were going to go to a basketball game, but when dad got home from teaching, there was the doctor waiting for him. My mother was on her knees scrubbing her floor. Dad said, "We're going to the ball game." The doctor said, "Oh no, we're not. I've turned our tickets in. We're going to have a baby around here if I can get you to get your wife into bed." So Dad did. My dad had arranged for the neighbor to take the three older girls just to get them out of the way. I was the youngest in the family. He told my sisters as he dropped them off, "Now when you get home you're going to have a really nice 2 surprise. So you be good and when I get home I'm going to show you your surprise." When the girls came home, after I was born, they all cried and said, "I thought it was going to be a puppy or candy or ice cream or something. Not just a baby." I have always said, "It's good that I didn't know it then because I would have had my feelings hurt." ROH: How much distance is there between you and your sisters age-wise? BS: The one just older than me is Arlene and she is three years and three months. My oldest sister, Rachael, was seven years older. My next oldest sister was Lois and she was about five years older. ROH: So there were four girls total in your family? SB: Four girls, no brothers. When I got married, I didn't know boys teased like they do and I had a hard time dealing with some of these things that came up in our marriage because I didn't know how to respond. It was a wonderful life with a house full of girls. ROH: What was your maiden name? BS: Christensen. We did not live in Kanab terribly long because as happens in school nowadays and all time, what's the first thing they cut from schools? This was during the depression. ROH: Art and music? BS: Art, music and all of those things. They cut out the music department. Dad played the violin. He lost his job and couldn't get a job anywhere. Later in life, he 3 was in the first Utah Symphony Orchestra as the first violinist. It was a WPA Project. Reginald Beal was his director and Dad loved the Orchestra. It was a great time of his life. ROH: Where were your parents from? BS: They were from Moroni, Utah in Sanpete County. My ancestors came from Denmark. Most of the Scandinavian people settled in that part of Utah. That's where my parents were both born. I don't remember what year they came over from Denmark, but most of the family came. Mother and Dad went to high school there, from kindergarten to High School. They said it was a fun town. My sisters and I loved to go down there to visit. Grandma Christensen would let us go to the chicken coop and each gather one egg. We would take them to the grocery store and spend them or a bag of candy of our choice. Moroni is just East of Nephi, in the valley there. Dad finally bought a Model A Ford. It had no heater and no air conditioning. It took four hours in that Model A to go down Moroni to visit and we would come home the same night. We weren't real happy going down just because of the long ride. Mother would heat rocks or bricks in the oven and get blankets and coats to keep us warm and we four girls would sit across the back seat. We kept warm but we didn't like to stay so cooped up for that long. ROH: Did your mom work in the home or outside of the home as well? BS: She did work outside of the home. We were very poor after the Depression and we had no money. Many times we didn't know where the next meal was coming 4 from. I ate more bread and milk during that time than I would ever like to say because sometimes that's all we had. Mother would make bread because she had flour but we all liked it fixed differently. I liked mine hot with salt on it. My dad liked it cold with sugar on it. The rest of them just had their own way of having it too. It kept us alive and we got along just fine. My mother, bless her heart, made such a pleasant home. In the summertime for every meal, no matter what we had to eat, there was always a bouquet of flowers and a tablecloth on the table. She loved flowers and she grew a lot of them. We moved a lot during my life. I was teased quite often from my friends because of this. They'll say, "Name a town, Bernice lived there." ROH: Tell me some of the places you moved to that you can remember. BS: We moved to Richfield when we left Kanab. Dad did a number of jobs there to feed us. He sold the Deseret Newspaper and did anything he could find for work. I was only three when I lived there, but this time is the clearest part of my memory. I don't know how mother let us do some of the things we did. We had an irrigation ditch in front of our house and we had a wide canal in the back of the barn a little ways. The girls would go down to the canal and pick Potawatomi Plums to make jam. (They were named after some of the Indians in Southern Utah. When Bill and I moved to our home in Ogden, I found a tree just like them in my backyard. I said, "My word where did that come from up here?" They were really good). One day, I just thought, "I'm going to go with the girls down to the canal". We all were down there and I decided I wanted to go home, so I left by myself and decided to take a short cut. The field next to where we lived was all in 5 clover that was in blossom. I thought, "I'll just run fast through that field." By the time I got home I had literally hundreds of bee stings on my ankles and my feet. My feet were swollen and they really hurt. I did learn to never go through that part of the backyard again. We had a lot of fun experiences there and some not so fun ones. We had two dogs. One was a black and white spotted bird dog. The other was a curly haired white dog. I was so afraid of that white dog, because she would get hold of my coat in the cold weather and she would just shake her head as hard as she could and drag me all over the yard. I couldn't get away from her. The big dog was my companion for my nap. We would lie behind the coal stove and he'd lay his arm over my shoulder and we'd have a nice nap together. ROH: That's very sweet. BS: It was. I really slept so good back then. I remember that my mother made handmade soap. You have to use ashes for that, so she'd burn her trash out in our backyard and get the ashes from there. ROH: Did you have any other family around? BS: No. Before I was born there were places they lived that had some around. They lived in Bingham and they had an experience up there. Mother had Lois (my sister) sleeping in her crib in front of the window of the bedroom on the back side of the house. A huge rock dislodged and rolled down the mountain, through the window and into Lois' crib. My mother just knew she was gone, but she was up in 6 the corner of the crib and the big rock went in the rest of the bed. Lois was not touched at all. We felt that was a great miracle. We moved to Salt Lake from there when I was in kindergarten. The only thing I remember about kindergarten was that we had to take naps. We had to bring a blanket and a pillow. I would lay mine down and this little boy in my class named Danny would wait until I lay down and he'd bring his blanket and lie down right next to me. It irritated me to no end. I would get up and move somewhere else and he would too. He was determined to take his nap next to me. That's all I remember about kindergarten. ROH: You don't remember learning to read and write, just remember that. BS: We didn't learn to read and write until the first grade. ROH: Oh you didn't? BS: Kindergarten was more of a social learning and how to share with the other children. It was learning how to get along with other children and it was a playtime. The teacher would read stories to us, but we didn't have reading or writing. We'd color and things like that, but we didn't have any kind of instruction while we were there. ROH: That must have been fun. BS: It was. About this time Dad heard that California had all the jobs, so we up and went to California. ROH: What part of California? 7 BS: Oakland. Dad and Mother both tried to find work there. ROH: What year is this? BS: I was five so about 1931. I don't remember much about California because we weren't there long enough. We rented the basement of a big home. I have no idea what they paid for it, but I know the lady gave it to them for almost nothing. My mother and dad even got down to the point where they were selling toothpaste door-to-door to earn enough money to feed us. I remember we had sub for Santa that year. Someone brought in all of these boxes for our Christmas. It didn't bother us. Everybody was in the same situation. The only thing is my mother thought I had measles, come to find out it was fleas. We had fleas in the beds so bad that mother had to take the bedding outside to shake them and wash them often. I was allergic to the flea bites and I was covered from head to toe. That's why she thought I had measles. They itched. Oh my gosh, I thought I'd die during that time. We used to go out in the desert and get turtles. We loved the desert turtles. They are very calm. Dad would drill a hole through the back of their shell and chain them to a post in the ground so they wouldn't run away. It wasn't harmful and it didn't hurt them. We fed them religiously, particularly the outside leaves of the lettuce and what food we didn't eat. It was a fun time there. We looked forward to Christmas, because that is the only time in the year that we got an orange. Oh, I looked forward to that one orange we would get. 8 ROH: What were some of the things you would eat when they did have a little bit of money? BS: We would eat vegetables. Mother would usually plant a garden. We would have a little bit of meat. Some of the neighbors that had cows would bring us over some milk. Fruit was too expensive. We just couldn't buy fruit, except to can for the coming winter. ROH: Except for those plums. BS: Yes. While living in Oakland, my sister, Arlene, had an assignment in her school class to draw a picture with snow in it. None of the kids had really seen snow because it wasn't cold enough. Arlene drew a picture and the ground was all black and the snowflakes were black. The teacher said, "I thought snow was white." She said, "Well, you've never seen Salt Lake snow then." Everybody in Utah used coal stoves to heat their houses, so it would be absolutely black in a day or two from the soot and smoke of burning coal. Arlene thought the snow was black. It makes sense. ROH: It does to a child. BS: Soon, California announced that they would pay the train fare for anyone that would go back to their home state. We decided we'd take advantage of it because we were worse off there than we were at home. So, we went back home and when we got there, I broke out in red measles. ROH: Were you the only one out of the four girls that caught it? 9 BS: Yes. I also had pneumonia with them. We had no place to go when we got to Utah, so my aunt took us in. We'd sleep on the floor in front of the fireplace. I would open my eyes when we'd lie down there and see these spinning things all over the fireplace. Of course, I was hallucinating from the fever. We lived with my aunt until we found a place on 5th East and 4th South. It was just one room above a business. It had no refrigeration and no air conditioning. It had nothing in it but beds for us to sleep on. You had to go down the hall to use the bathroom. I was still very sick when we moved in. They had the doctor come out again and he told mother, "That child has to have milk, or I'm not sure she's going to make it." Mother said, "I can't afford milk." He said, "Use canned milk and dilute it." We had no place to keep it cold if I didn't drink the whole thing in one day. It was always warm. That was the worst thing I ever drank. I don't like canned milk to this day. I use it for cooking, but I don't like it. ROH: Was your dad able to find a teaching job in Salt Lake? BS: Not at first. He was still struggling to find one. He decided he was going to open a printing shop. He would print and help distribute things. The business did not make much more money. We were still struggling. We finally found a little house in back of a larger house. I remember while we were there that if we were naughty, Dad would say, "You need your legs switched." But he wouldn't go out and cut the switches. We had to go out and cut our own switches. We would try to find the thinnest switches we could find. But we soon found out that they would 10 sting worse than the thicker ones. We straightened up pretty fast with that. It did not happen very often after that. ROH: I would imagine. Let's take you back to Salt Lake. Were you in school in Salt Lake after you got well from the measles? BS: Yes. We came back to Salt Lake City before I finished first grade. I went to the Liberty School there in Salt Lake. I remember only three of my teachers in school and that's all. In the first grade, her name was Ms. Anderson. My fourth grade teacher was Ms. Morgan. In the sixth grade, I had Ms. Jensen. In those times, a married woman could not teach school. I had a lot of girlfriends during my school years. After we graduated, 2 of them moved to the Ogden/Weber County area. It was great to renew our friendships. ROH: At what point did you move to Ogden? BS: We moved to Clearfield when my dad finally found a good job at Hill Field. My mother was working at the Ogden Arsenal. I also worked at the Ogden Arsenal between my junior and senior year of high school. I worked for a captain as a stenographer. His name was Captain Haugh. He said, "As soon as you graduate next year, come back and I'll hold your job for you." And he did. I had to report back to work on the last day of school. I checked with the Principal and he said that if I did not attend that last day, I could not graduate. I went to work that last day and when I went to graduation no one said anything about it and I graduated with the rest of the class. 11 ROH: Which high school did you attend? BS: I attended South High School in Salt Lake. ROH: Where were you in junior high? BS: In junior high I was at Lincoln. During the time I was in junior high we only went to junior high for two years. 7th grade was half a year and 8th grade was half a year. This meant that we only went to school a total of 11 years, so I graduated at 17 years old. ROH: Were you in Salt Lake for a long time? BS: I was in Salt Lake City all through my school years, until I came up to Clearfield to work. I was the only one at home by the time we moved to Clearfield, my sisters were all married. They all married within four months of each other. ROH: Wow. Your mom was busy. BS: She was busy. I think it's easier if you have them close together. I had Louise and Connie get married one in January and one in August. That was harder to do because we were out of the mood, having them all together is almost easier. ROH: Were you involved in helping your sisters with their wedding decorations? BS: Oh yes. And we all wore the same wedding gown. My mother made my oldest sister's wedding gown and we all wore the same one. We couldn't afford more than one. ROH: Do you have pictures of everyone in the same gown? 12 BS: No. I have a picture of mine and Rachael had hers. The other two didn't have a reception so there were no pictures. Unfortunately, the dress couldn't be worn to the temple, but it was fun for us all to wear the same one. ROH: Do you still have the gown? BS: No, my oldest sister had it and I don't know where it is now. She passed away a year ago. ROH: I hope she kept it in the family. BS: I'm sure it is. I think her daughter, Susan, may have taken it. ROH: That's a special gown if four girls got married in the same dress. You touched a little bit about the fact that the Depression was going on. Do you have any memories of the Depression other than not having food to eat? The further we get away from it, the more people seem to forget that it was real. BS: It was very real. We were all aware of it. I don't remember a whole lot as I was young when it began. When World War II started, gas was rationed, shoes were rationed, food was rationed, and meat was rationed. You couldn't get butter, you had to use margarine. It came white and had a yellow pill in it. You'd break that pill and knead it in the plastic bag until it was yellow. They couldn't sell it yellow. Sugar was rationed. We had food stamps for all of this. We were still feeling the effects of the Depression and when the war started it got even worse. I remember the day they announced the war on Sunday, December 7th. In Salt Lake at that time, the newspaper would send out a special edition 13 newspaper and the newsboys would go up and down all of the streets in Salt Lake saying, "Extra, extra! Read all about it," trying to sell newspapers. They said, "The Japanese have attacked the United States in Hawaii." I was just getting ready to go to Sunday school and that's the way I heard it. After the World War II started, we still had to watch pennies. ROH: Were your older sisters working? BS: Yes, they all started working when they graduated from high school. My oldest sister, Rachael, went on a mission for our church to New York. The rest of us worked during this time. Arlene tried to go to the University of Utah. She graduated from high school when she was sixteen. She just could not seem to fit in with all the people at the University, because they were older than she was, so she got a job. I went to work during my senior year of high school. ROH: How did you get that job? BS: Well, because of the war the men were all gone, so all the women had to take on the jobs that the men weren't here to do. I was very fortunate. I got a job at Deseret Book typing school orders for the Salt Lake schools. ROH: Was that being done at Hill Field? BS: No, I never worked at Hill Field; I worked at the Ogden Arsenal. Let me get back to that in a minute. You asked me how I moved to Clearfield. We decided that as long as all three of us, Mom, Dad and I, were working up here in this part of the state, we might as well move up here, rather than make that drive every day. So, 14 the family moved to Clearfield. We lived right there next to the Ogden Arsenal. It was closer to work. ROH: Was there a train at that time? BS: The Bamberger. Only the older people know about the Bamberger, at least the younger generation doesn't. How can that be? ROH: Everybody talks to me about Bamberger. That Bamberger was very important. BS: When Bill and I were dating, we had to date by riding the Bamberger. He was in Ogden and I was in Clearfield. We didn't have a car, and he couldn't get any gas because it was rationed. He got 15 gallons of gas a week to go to work and he could have two gallons of gas for pleasure. Gas was a lot cheaper then, it was only about 18 cents a gallon. ROH: It still didn't get you that far. BS: Exactly, we didn't have the gas. I had money to buy gas, but gas was not available to buy. ROH: So your job was at Deseret Book? BS: Yes, I worked at Deseret Book in Salt Lake and I'd go in at 1:00 p.m. and I'd work until 6:00 p.m. President McKay, before he was President of the LDS Church, spent so much time in the Deseret Book, and I got well-acquainted with him. In fact, he married Bill and me. He was also my mother and dad's friend and we, Bill and I, visited his office and asked him to perform our ceremony. 15 ROH: Today is Wednesday, October 24, 2012. We are in the home of Bernice Stromberg in Ogden, Utah. Present are Bernice and Rebecca Ory Hernandez from Weber State. Before I turned on the recorder you said there were a couple of things that we didn't talk about last time. Why don't you go ahead and tell me a little bit about your mom? BS: When I was in grade school, mother finally decided she would certainly like a washing machine. We had been using the scrub board. She said, "I'm going to go to work so I can buy a washing machine." She worked for a dress factory and her job was sewing sleeves on dresses all day long for 10 cents an hour. She was such a beautiful seamstress. She went on later to work for Ehlers Drapery Company. She made band uniforms and the heavy velvet stage curtains for schools and churches. I don't know how she did it because she was just a little bitty lady. ROH: Drapes like what you would see at an auditorium or a stage? BS: Yes. When I was a junior in high school, she quit work. That was the most delightful thing I had happen in my life because it was so nice to come home from school with my mother there. The house was warm and smelled good because she had been baking and cooking. It was such a wonderful feeling to have mother there when I got home. I was the youngest, so I was the first home all the time. Another thing I hated about coming home and being alone when I came home school, was the fact that we only had a coal stove in the kitchen that we cooked on and a Franklin pot belly stove in the living room for heat. Since I 16 was the first one home, I had to build all the fires in the stoves. I did this from the time I was probably eight years old. (When Bill and I were married, he couldn't even build a fire in a fireplace. I'd have to build the fire in the fireplace because he couldn't get it to start—even though he had been a boy scout). My high school years were not the most fun time in my life. I loved school, but there was just too much drama going on and people hurting one another's feelings. In my year book, one of the girls wrote, "Bernice, I really would have liked to get to know you better, but you were always so stuck up." I was not stuck up, I was very shy. I was totally afraid of strangers and other things. I was so shy that I would hold myself back and she thought I was just avoiding them all. Had I known, I might have done things differently. ROH: You graduated, but you didn't walk? BS: Yes, I graduated and I did walk. Education has always been so important to Bill and me. Neither of us had the opportunity to go to college. As I mentioned before, we were very poor and going through the Depression. There was no money. I could go to work, but I couldn't earn enough to pay tuition. Mother and Dad couldn't work more than they already were, so I was unable to go to college. Bill tried to get in the service, but they wouldn't take him because of football injuries he'd had in high school. ROH: Where did Bill go to high school? BS: Ogden High. 17 ROH: Let's talk a little bit about Bill's background as far as you are aware. Where did he grow up? BS: He was born and raised in Salt Lake until he was nine when his dad moved to Ogden because he got a better job there. ROH: What was his dad doing? BS: At that time, he worked as a grocery salesman. He'd go around to the stores and get all the food orders. He had all of Utah, part of Southern Idaho, and part of Wyoming as his district. He would write up all the orders and turn them into the grocery chain. ROH: Does the grocery chain still exist? BS: They're gone now. The building is still there on Wall Avenue with the name on it, Utah Wholesale Grocery. Bill grew up in Ogden and graduated from Ogden High School. He played football and that was very important to him. ROH: What position did he play? BS: Tight end. He played both offense and defense back then. His school took region the year he graduated. After graduation he went to California to the Curtis Wright Air Technical School and learned to be an airplane overhaul mechanic. He liked mechanics, so he went there by himself. He had a buddy that was going with him, but he decided not to go. Bill told him, "I don't care. I'm going anyway." He went and when he came back he was 18 and went immediately to work for Hill Field. 18 ROH: What was Bill's date of birth? BS: It was the 28th of February, 1925. He worked at Hill Field and loved what he was doing. We got married on August 29, 1945. I was still working at the Ogden Arsenal. I was eighteen and he was twenty. He lost his job three weeks after we got married. They were laying people off at the Base and if you didn't have military experience, you were the first to go. He was one of the first to go. I said, "I'm not sure this is quite fair, I go to work every day and you stay home." He got another job at the Navy base which was located where Freeport Center is now. He worked there for three years and then Hill started hiring and hired him again. He had been a warehouse man at the Navy base and when he went back to Hill, he qualified for a desk job rather than mechanics. Before he retired from Hill Air Force Base, he was the Branch Chief for the Material Management Department. He had been able to work himself up. ROH: When did he retire? BS: He retired in 1977. He was 52 years old. He called me one day from work and he said, "I've got a chance to retire Bernice, what should I do?" I asked, "Well, how is it going to affect our income?" He said, "It won't affect it a bit." They wanted to release one of the highest paid positions. So when they came back to him, he said, "Okay, I'm letting go of myself." They said, "You can't do that." He said, "Yes I can." They said, "We'll transfer you." He said, "You can't. That's an adverse action." So, he retired. 19 He had a lot of things he was interested in doing after that. He went into land development and timeshare. It was a blessing in disguise. I didn't work terribly long after we were married. I stayed home and became a housewife. We couldn't have children right away and didn't have Christine until 1947. My neighbor once came to see me and said, "Bernice, I need to talk to you." I said, "Okay, what do you need?" She said, "You know how when girls get married and they have babies right soon everybody talks about them? Everybody at church now is talking about you and Bill and why you're not having children." I said, "I wish I knew why we weren't having them. I don't know." We really did want children, so after a year or so I went to my doctor and he said, "You'll never have any children." I had a growth that had totally filled the uterus. He took that out I got pregnant right away and have had six children. ROH: You had many children. BS: It was a great thing. ROH: How did you meet Bill? BS: A girl that worked in the same office with me and I became very good friends. One day she said to me, "There are two really good looking guys that go to Mutual. Come with me" I said, "Okay." It was Bill and Glen Robertson. Bill asked me on a date. The way we had to date was even funnier because gas rationing was still on. I lived in Clearfield and he lived in Ogden. The Bamberger was still running 20 and it would run to Ogden. The only stop close to where I lived was at the West gate of Hill Field and the Ogden Arsenal in Clearfield. I would take the train to Ogden and we'd go on our date. Bill would pick me up at the station and then take me back to the station after the date. I would then take the train back and then I'd have to walk on the highway to my house. I lived in a housing development down the street. When I think back on it now, that was a dangerous thing to do because sometimes it would be 10:00 or 11:00 at night and it was always after dark. But it was a different time then entirely. Telephone calls were ten cents each and ten cents was a lot of money then. We had to really plan our dating so that we could use the train for transportation and not have to use the phone to make plans. ROH: Where did you like to go when you did go out on dates? BS: We would go to movies, go for long walks, get ice cream cones, or we danced often at White City Ballroom. There was a hamburger place down on Grant Ave and everybody went there. It was open for years and they were the best hamburgers in Ogden. The place was run by a husband and wife. When they gave it up their children didn't want it. They helped for a while and then they didn't want it, so they sold it. It was a block west of Washington on Grant Ave. Of course, things have changed so much since then. ROH: Where did you get married? BS: We got married in Salt Lake at the LDS Temple. 21 ROH: Where was your first home? BS: It was a duplex on the corner of 29th Street and Jackson. ROH: Is it still there? BS: Yes. We had no furniture or anything, but we were stable. I said, "You know it is amazing what you could do without." We were as poor then as I had been all my life. He hadn't had to do without so he was not use to it. We bought a little wooden table and chairs for the kitchen. His mother gave us a hide-a-bed couch. I had a rocking chair that my mother gave us and we bought a bedroom set. Later on, we were able to buy a washer and dryer. Sometimes we would have no more than ten cents, after paying the bills and buying food, and we would walk up to Harrison Blvd.to Judy's Ice Cream Store and we'd each buy an ice cream cone with that dime. We were broke. We both worked the first year and our annual income was 2500 dollars. That's what we lived on and that's what we bought the furniture with. A Grocery Store was just kitty-corner from where we lived. We had a big garden and we would sell a bushel of tomatoes to that store. They were always glad to get homegrown produce like that. Food was cheap back then. Lettuce was 5 cents, bread 10 cents and hamburger was 25 cents a pound. ROH: Did everyone have a garden at that time? BS: Yes. During World War II, they asked everybody to have a victory garden. Everybody who had a place where they could plant a garden did. I loved my 22 garden. I even planted some veggies out here this last year. I wanted some tomatoes, zucchini and cucumbers so I had one little spot where I took out roses and put in veggies. We really had a wonderful life. He brought home $64 everyday two weeks. We had to pay rent, buy groceries and we had to pay all our utilities, but we never went into debt. It's just amazing what you could do that back then. When we were first married, Bill had a yellow convertible. Later on, He sold that car and we bought a lot next door to Bill's parents on Mount Ogden Drive for 500 dollars. We built a house on it. It was a nice home. Our lot was large and went through the whole block. Years later, we sold the bottom half to a younger couple and they built a house on the bottom half of the lot. Soon all of the property owners did that. ROH: When you were home alone before you had children, how did you fill your time? BS: I started out right away working in my church and with young women. I was 18 years old and I taught girls that were 17 years old. I did lot of things with them. I also started doing genealogy work. I worked periodically. I worked as a ward clerk at the old Thomas Dee Hospital and I volunteered a few years in the McKay Dee Hospital. I told Elizabeth Stewart once, "I want to volunteer." They had come in with a grandmother program at the McKay Hospital where older women would go into the nursery to feed the preemie babies. Elizabeth said, "I'd like to go with you but I wonder if they'd let me not ever having any children". We went over and they said, "You bet." We would go over once a week and feed these teeny tiny 23 babies. She absolutely loved it. They have done away with the program now. I don't know why. One day, I had a little colored baby. He was so cute. His name was Maurice. I fed him, held him, and talked to him. He just grinned. I said, "You can't grin." He didn't weigh five pounds yet and he was 3 months old by that time and he could grin. I thought, "You're too little to smile." That was a great time in my life. I had plenty of things that I could do. ROH: Tell me about your children. BS: Christine was born in 1947. She was not a happy baby. She cried night and day for seven months and we'd take turns sleeping. I would sleep a few hours and Bill would sleep a few hours. But she was a beautiful baby. She wasn't even red or anything. She had such fair skin and looked like she was two or three months old when she was born. She got her first teeth at two months. She has taught school. She graduated from Ogden High Schools and Weber State University. She earned both a Bachelor's and Master's Degree. She married Travis D. Crowther. We encouraged all of our children go to college because we felt it was very important. She received a "normal scholarship" in the education department. You had to teach in Ogden schools for one year if you accepted that scholarship. It covered the tuition. She went through college and always said, "I really want to be a college bum. I would like to go to college all my life and never quit." She's done that and gone into so many things. She taught anything from second grade to sixth grade. They wanted her to go into high school teaching, but she said, "I don't want to because if kids don't get a good foundation in elementary school, they have too much trouble in junior high and high school." She's retired now. 24 ROH: She's not still going to school? BS: No. Both she and Travis are retired and they want to travel and be with their grandchildren Richard was our second child born in 1949. He was a good baby and a good child. But he's now so full of, I do not know what. He's always teasing. Sometimes I wonder about him. He went to Weber State University too, for computer science. When he got his master's degree, he went into mathematics. He decided mathematics would do him more good in what he'd probably end up doing. So he got his master's in mathematics and went to work for Phillips Oil. He works at Northrop Grumman as an engineer in missiles now. Richard had a hard start in school. In the first grade, I was very worried about him. He would go to school, but I knew he wasn't learning to read or the other things he should be learning. I would call the teacher and go to all the parent teacher conferences and she would say, "He's just doing fine." At the end of the school year, that teacher said, "You might just as well forget that boy. He's never going to learn anything." I said, "You've been telling me all year he was doing fine." She said, "Well he isn't. He's not smart enough to learn." I found out later that he had spent the entire first grade on a chair in the closet or out in the hall. She didn't like him and she didn't want to be bothered with him. I went to the principal and that teacher was transferred the next year. I was not the only parent that had problems with her. So Richard had a hard time trying to catch up. When he was in the fourth grade he had a marvelous teacher, May DeLange. She called me on the phone and said, "Bernice, will you have Richard do his oral reading at home 25 and I'll have him do the silent reading at school. They all make so much fun of him and call him Bucky Beaver." You see, his front teeth stuck out so far that he could not pronounce some letters. He could not have his teeth fixed until he was 11 years old. He really developed quite an inferiority complex, which you wouldn't know nowadays. Through high school he still had problems. Every time they had a parent teacher conference I'd get a letter that said, "You need to bring Richard in. He's failing in school." I made an appointment and went over to discuss this with his teacher. He told me that he gets an A on every exam, but he never hands in one page of homework. You get that many zero's, the A's can't cover it. I asked him, "Why? I know you do your homework because we all sat at the table and you did it." He said, "I know. It's in my locker." I said, "Why didn't you turn it in?" He said, "Because I think it's about time they grade you on what you know and not what you do." When he graduated from college, he did some graduate student teaching at BYU. I asked him one day, "Do you require your students to hand in their homework." He said, "Well, of course, how can I watch and follow their progress?" I said, "My how things have changed since you went to high school." He graduated from Weber State University and received his Master's from Utah State University. He married Pamela Day Cook. Third was Louise, born in 1951. She was so timid that many the kids bullied her. She'd go down to wait for the school bus but she wouldn't get on the bus, she'd walk back home. I didn't always have a car to take her to school because we only owned one car and Bill had to take it to work. She had to wear glasses in the first grade and that bothered her too. She was such a smart girl. 26 She attended Weber State University for her Associate degree in Nursing. She went on and finished her Bachelor's and Master's Degrees. She is now just finishing her Doctorate Degree. She teaches nursing at Weber State. At this time, she has passed her doctoral exam and only has her dissertation to do in her doctorate of nursing education. She is married to Michael Salmond. She has four children—two sets of twins. Fourth, came Connie and she was something else. She was born in 1954 and she was so anxious to be born that I almost did not make it to the hospital. She was so effervescent that she couldn't sit still to eat her dinner. She would be on a chair, off a chair, up and down and around the chair. I'd say, "Just sit on your chair." She'd say, "I can't, Mom. I just can't." She would walk to school down to the bus with Louise who just prodded along, and Connie would dance around her and the other kids at least six times before they got to the bus. She did well with school and did well with friends. When she was in third grade and I went to parent teacher conference the teacher said, "That child is the most effervescent child I have ever had in school." I said, "Yes I know she is. I'll talk to her and see what we can do." Mrs. Brown said, "Don't you dare. Can't you imagine how wonderful life would be to be that happy? She does her work and she doesn't bother any of the other kids." She's still that way. She attended to Weber State University, for only one a year. She took all of the business classes and she's since been the head secretary in the Cook Elementary School where all her children went to school. So that worked out fine. She married Stanley W. Sims and they have four children. 27 Douglas was our fifth child, and he was as bad as Connie was and couldn't sit still very long. He loved to be alone and he loved to be home. He could not sit still in school. I told the teacher, "I'll talk to him and see what I can do." She said, "Don't do it. I can teach him on his feet as well as I can teach him on his seat. He never bothers anyone. He just walks around the room and comes back and sits in his chair." I thought, "Oh, what a marvelous teacher." President Thompson used to call him the renegade because he's the only one that didn't go to Weber State. He went to BYU because he had a full ride scholarship in football. He received his Bachelor's and Master's from BYU and then went to Hanuman Medical University in Philadelphia for a Master's of Physical Therapy. He now works in physical therapy at Logan Regional Hospital. He married Maren Smith. Then there's Curtis. He was the best baby and little boy we ever had. We'd take him to the grocery store and he'd get in front of the cereal shelves and just look at things. He'd put his hands behind his back and never touched a thing. We'd do all our shopping and go back and he would still be looking at the cereal. I remember getting in the car one day to go home and said to Bill, "Oh, I think we left Curtis in the store." He did well in school. He's principal now at the Kaysville Junior High School. Most of our children went into education. ROH: Did they all go to the same school growing up? BS: They all went to Ogden High School. Christine, Richard and Curtis got their master's degrees from Utah State. Louise did hers online. She got her Master's 28 through Phoenix and her Doctorate through North Central in Phoenix. She said, "I'll graduate in May, 2014 and I expect you to go to Phoenix. I'm going to walk. I put enough into this that I'm going to walk, so I guess I have to go to Phoenix with her." They've all been good kids and have good jobs. ROH: What were some of the family traditions you had with the kids? BS: Well, Bill was traveling so much, so we took one big vacation a year with all the children. But I went alone with Bill a lot of times when he went on TDY. The grandmothers were always thrilled to take all those children for a time like that. Sometimes they'd divide the week. My mother and dad lived in Salt Lake and Bill's mother and dad lived on the other side of the Weber State campus on Mt. Ogden drive. ROH: Where did you travel to when you took vacations? BS: We went where he had to go work. We would go to Las Vegas and Disneyland every year since it opened, when our children were at home. He'd often have to go down to California and we would rent a house on the beach or close to it and take all the children. You would think we were nomads because we had the play pen, the high chair, and everything on top of the car and all the kids and suitcases inside the car. He had to go to several places in California and when he became branch chief of the material management department he had to visit every air base, even the ones overseas. For three years he was gone 70 percent of each year before he got his technicians trained to do it. He said to me at that time, "Bernice, you've 29 stayed home and raised our children, when I retire I'm going to take you to Europe and to every country I went to." And he did, except for Trippoli. Cadaffe had already taken that country and that air base was closed. ROH: What was that like? BS: It was wonderful. On one trip we visited ten countries—Italy, Germany, Austria, France, Netherlands, and so many around there. We took Don and Elizabeth Stewart with us and my sister and her husband. It was a wonderful trip. We also went to England a couple of times and went to Israel, Egypt, and many other places. ROH: On the same trip or a different? BS: No, it was at different times. Elizabeth wanted to go do some genealogy in England and Scotland, so we went there one time. When I think about all the trips, they were wonderful experiences. We later bought a condo in Indian Wells, California down in the Palm Springs area and we built a cabin up at Baer Lake. We also traveled a lot with the children. Yellowstone was one of the favorite places as a family. ROH: Tell me a little bit about Elizabeth Stewart because you were friends with her and her name is on the library. I like to ask people to tell me a little bit about her. BS: She lived just two doors up the street from us on College Drive. Bill was Bishop then and we got to know her well through the ward. We traveled a lot with them in their big bus. She became one of my best friends. We confided in each other. 30 One thing I remember so well is when she got irritated with Don somehow. All of a sudden the doorbell rang and here's Elizabeth. She got in her car and drove down to my house, past only one house, into my driveway and came in just fuming. I can't even remember what it was, but she was so irritated with him, so we sat and talked. Then all of a sudden she said, "I think I can go home now Bernice." So she got in her car and drove past the one house again and up into her house. She and I did so many things together and I remember once she was over and I was complaining about my children not doing what they were supposed to be doing. She took me by the shoulders and looked me right in the eye and said, "Bernice, I would give everything I own to have your children." We were good for each other because we could say things and the other would never get angry or upset; we'd just take it with a grain of salt. She was one of the most generous people I have ever met. She loved children. Our children called her Grandma Elizabeth. She was also known as the cookie Grandma. She tried to teach me piano lessons, but I didn't do too well. My dad was a violinist and he was in the first Utah Symphony Orchestra. One day I said, "Dad, I want to learn to play." (Richard did and he played in the youth city orchestra, but when he got to high school and played football he would not carry that violin to school). I did my best, but I don't hear music very well. One day after we finished the lesson my dad said, "You know, Bernice, I think you 31 ought to choose another instrument to play." It was the same with piano, I could not do it well. ROH: Just not your instrument. The piano wasn't either? BS: No. You can see why I didn't do much outside of the home with all the children home and no husband most of the time. When all of the children graduated from high school and were working and such, Curtis was the only one that was still home and Grandpa Stromberg was living with us as well. I also had my mother with us for 8 years and him for 20 years. Then Curtis had a friend that went on mission and his mother had cancer. He knew she wouldn't live until he got home from his mission. When he did get home his mother had passed away and his dad had remarried and moved into a trailer home. The new wife had a teenage daughter and his dad just looked at him and said, "I'm sorry Greg, you're going to have to find another place to live because I don't have room for you anymore." Greg tried living with his sister, but she and her husband were newly married and it just didn't work. He was going to Weber State and he asked Curtis, "Do you think your mom and dad would let me live with them while I go to school." Curtis said, "I'm sure they would." So we took in Greg. Then, we took in Debbie who wasn't a member of our church but she wanted to join so badly. She and her mother lived here in Ogden in the East Ridge apartments in a one bedroom unit with her live-in boyfriend. Debbie was sleeping on the couch. She came to live with us and eventually joined the church. 32 She lived with us for a long time. I still call her my bonus child. We had both of them for a while. When Greg finished school and went back down to Centerville. We had a swimming pool in our back yard and Curtis and Annette wanted their little girl to learn to swim. They brought Kari Sue up to teach her to swim in our swimming pool. Kari Sue was not a happy girl and she finally said, "Can I come live with you?" I said, "As long as your parents give you permission." That was always the one criterion with all the kids that lived with us. Her parents came up and visited with us and they said they thought it would be a good thing. She later went to Seattle for a better job. Then there was Michael, who had dated Debbie and wanted to come and live with us. By this time Debbie had dated and had been engaged to another young man. One week before the wedding was to be he said, "I don't want to get married." We had to give all the things back and I had made her wedding dress and everything. She was lost and I said, "Would you like to go on a mission?" She said, "Yes." So we sent her on a mission down to Costa Rica. She was such a spoiled child because she was an only child. I said, "You know, you're never going to make it down there with all the bugs and the forest and all of that. I'm just not sure you're going to make it." She told me later, "Bernice, every time I felt like coming home, I thought, no way I am not going to give you the chance to say I told you so." She stayed her full time. She spent some time in the hospital because she caught some of the bad bugs. 33 After Bill's mother died, Grandpa Stromberg came to live with us. He was pretty good for quite a few years, but then I had to watch him every minute because he'd wander. Later, my Ddd passed away and my mother was living alone, but I was afraid of her falling so we took her in as well. Counting the seven years that I took care of Bill, it had been 35 years that I was taking care of elderly people or teenagers in my home. I loved every minute of it. I really did. Bill's dad was the sweetest man I've ever met. I always called him my spiritual giant. ROH: What was his name? BS: Verner Lorenzo Stromberg. His parents came over from Sweden with one sister and two brothers. One baby died and they buried him at sea. Verner was born here. One day, his dad didn't come in from the fields, he was 35 years of age and they found him dead out in the field. His mother and grandmother were living here too and they didn't even speak English. It was kind of a hard time for them. My ancestors came from Denmark. I'm a pure Dane. Bill and I really had a wonderful life. We were always together. Everything we did, we did together or with the family. Did you want me to talk about Weber State? ROH: Yes, I was going to ask you how you became so generous with your time with Weber State. BS: It was a pleasure. I love the people there and the people that work there. John Johnson, the athletic director, I just felt like he was my own. He wasn't married when he was here and he'd come over to our home and sit in the big chair in 34 front of the fire place and say, "I absolutely love to just come over here and sit and talk with you and Bill." Bill was involved first, other than our involvement with the children going to Weber State. I did take one class there in home decorating. When Elizabeth and Don Stewart became sick and needed to have some more on their board, they asked Dean Hurst, Jack Lampros and Bill if they would serve on the board. ROH: How did Bill meet Elizabeth? BS: He was her Bishop at that time and she lived two doors up the street from us. ROH: Okay, so that's how they met originally? BS: Yes. Well, we knew them before that because we lived so close to them. She was the most generous person I've ever met in my whole life. A lot of people tried to take advantage of her. She'd get 15 to 20 letters in the mail asking for money. ROH: From random people in town? BS: Yes. They'd say, "I'm a friend of so-and-so who's the friend of…" and on and on. She said, "Well, I can't give it to you. We are a 501c3 charity organization and we cannot give to just an individual. It has to be charitable organization." That would cut most of them off. ROH: You're not the first person to say that to me. The first time I heard it I was surprised. Now, I'm surprised to continue to hear it. 35 BS: They knew she had money and wanted some of it. I had Don and Elizabeth over for Sunday dinner for 30 years, except holidays when they would go to Carol and Dean Hurst's. My mother was living with us at this time and would always make pies for dinner. She was the best pie maker in the world. When Don came to my mom's funeral he said, "Bernice, who's going to make our pies now?" I said, "Probably me." ROH: Do you? BS: Oh yes, I've made pies for a long time. ROH: So she taught you how to make pastry and pies? BS: Yes, Danish pastries and Danish foods, which I love. A Danish soup called hot soup. It's made with raisins, prunes, sliced lemon, cinnamon sticks, and tapioca. It's all boiled together and all those flavors blend. Oh, I did love that soup and so did Bill's dad because it was also a soup they had in Sweden. I finally found a recipe for it. My niece took all of mother's recipes when she passed away and I didn't get some of them that I wanted. My children and Bill hated the soup. It was so good though, I couldn't imagine them not liking it. Another quick thing about Elizabeth, she was known as the cookie grandma of the neighborhood. She always made cookies and the kids would go to her house or mine after school. I would always have hot bread and peanut butter and honey. One day, Douglas came home when he was about five and said, "You know what, Mom, I'm going to marry Elizabeth." I said, "Hun, she is already married to Don." He said, "I don't care. I'm going to marry Elizabeth." He 36 just kept telling her that and we just laughed about it. When he got engaged to be married, he came home from the "Y" and said, "I've got to go talk to Elizabeth." I said, "Okay, what do you have to talk to her about?" He said, "I'll tell you when I come home." He went up there with his bride-to-be, and asked her permission to marry Maren. She gave him and Maren her permission and blessing. ROH: That's so sweet. BS: It was just a sweet, sweet thing. ROH: That's adorable. How did you start to get involved with Weber State? BS: I always went with Bill. I was always with him because they invited us to everything and that's how I got to know Presidents Ann Milner, Paul Thompson, Steve Nadauld, President Bishop and Bill Miller. So you can see how far back we go with people from the university. I just tagged along with Bill. ROH: I've talked with the Miller Sisters. BS: Their mother, Mary, and I were so close and every time I'd see her she'd say, "Bernice, remember you're talking at my funeral. I've told the girls that you're going to be the speaker at my funeral." I just fluffed it off and she lived a lot of years after that. When she passed away Donna called me and said, "Bernice, I've got a question to ask you. "Would you mind if we girls talk at mother's funeral? We think that would be nice, but I know mom always said you were to be the speaker. I wanted to clear it with you before we did anything about it." I said, "Oh you sweet girl. I always expected you to." That family was a very 37 special family. It wasn't until Bill passed away that I was asked to be on the Stewart Foundation board. That's when I got a little more involved myself. I knew everybody so I felt like I was part of them already. ROH: Like part of the family. BS: Right. It's a great experience. That's why when they called me recently on the MS thing she said, "We'd like to know what you've done in the community." I said, "Shelly, I haven't really done a whole lot in the community." Bill and I liked the weight training building and they needed to make it bigger and get all new equipment and so Bill and I did that. I always think about what Jack said one day when they were asking him about donating money to the college. He said, "You know, it's an awesome experience to be an entrepreneur. Especially when you do it with someone else's money," meaning the foundation's money. I really laughed at him. ROH: He is funny too. BS: He is. Both he and his wife are. That's my connection with them, the foundation, and we became friends and traveled together. I can't say that I have done much other than just being a part of all of it with Bill. ROH: Well, that's very important because without your support we wouldn't be able to do all the wonderful things that we're able to do and it means a lot to the university. 38 BS: That's about all I did. I had been asked during all those years of raising children, if I would be the Weber County chair of one of the county foundations. They asked me many times if it would be possible to come and work in the social services to work with the pregnant girls, to be their friend, take them to Dr. appointments and let them know that someone cares and loves them. I wanted to help, but I always had someone at home that needed my care. I've always felt bad that I couldn't do more. I started working with the young women in our church when I was 18 and did that for 44 years. ROH: Are you still doing that now? BS: No. I had to give that up. It got to where I could not do the camping and hiking Ben Lomond and all those things, but I did teach for a while. They said, "Just come back and teach the girls and we'll get you help for the activities. You can just do the lessons." ROH: What keeps you busy now? BS: Great grandchildren. ROH: Are you still serving on the board? BS: Yes. I still am. I'm trying to think of what I do. ROH: Trying to keep up with all the family? BS: Well, that's the thing, I always have somebody here. Earlier I had an Avon lady that came to my house and she said, "I can't wait to come here. It's just like a three-ring circus. I never know how many are coming in and out." Ours was a fun 39 home. Bill and I both thoroughly loved teenagers. When the kids got to be teenagers and people, we just had a ball. Also, Ned and Maggie Favero had the White House wedding reception—do you remember that? ROH: I've read about it. BS: She asked me if I would consider doing catering for them. This was a perfect opportunity for my girls and me. We spent many, many hours together baking, making candy and tarts, talking, laughing, and bonding our love and lives together. It gave the girls work experience and an income. I loved to cook. I hate it now, but I loved it then and in the stake anybody that had a problem with cooking would call me. In fact, one ward has already called to see if I would make chocolates again. I said, "No, but Christine and Connie can do it." It really was a circus. We loved kids. When people start complaining about their teenagers I think, "Why? They're all so wonderful." I still have them come and visit, some of those that I taught back in 1945 and 1946. For years they would invite me out to lunch once in a while. Teenagers are pretty smart, they know genuine love and they know a put-on. Bill felt that way too, he absolutely loved young people and they knew it. I smiled when one of the hospice people came in and she said, "The first time I walked in your kitchen, I knew that this was a happy home." I have a sign up on the wall that says, "It's a Wonderful Life." Another lady in our ward brought me one that says, "Life is good." It was good. It really was. I can't say we always agreed. We could build houses and get 40 along fine, but put us in the yard and there was no way could we work together. I always said to him, "If you want to get a housekeeper or a gardener, be sure it's a housekeeper because I want to stay the gardener." He loved to build and I loved to work in the yard. My life was full raising our children and caring for parents, filling our home with teenagers when ours began to leave. When we moved here to Chimney Hills, it was the first time we lived alone, Bill and I. I really miss the full house. We have been truly blessed with a great posterity, 6 children, 26 grandchildren and 55 great grandchildren. When you add in all the spouses, that is over 100 in our family. Life's been good, and I wish I could share more. I've helped a lot of people, but it's just been me doing the things I love to do which is helping people. I still like to serve people. ROH: I thank you very much for taking the time to share your story with me. BS: Thank you, I am really glad to get better acquainted with you.