Interview with Atillio and Robert Antonioni. Atillio is an attorney in Leominster, MA and Robert is a Massachusetts legislator. Topics include: The family restaurant business: Atillio's mother opened a pizza shop called Lazy A and then the Il Camino. Importance of education for the family. What the neighborhood was like when Atillio was a child. How the neighborhoods in Leominster have changed. Robert was elected to the Leominster city council in 1984 and then went on to become a state representative and senator. What it means to be Italian. Atillio's work as a lawyer in Leominster. ; 1 SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 00:00:03] with the Center for Italian Culture at Fitchburg State College. It's Friday, January 25th, 2002. We're at the Offices of Atillio and Robert Antonioni, 42 Main Street in Leominster. So I'll ask both of you to um, just tell me your name just so I can… ATILLIO: Atillio Antionioni. ROBERT: I'm Robert – Robert A. Antonioni. SPEAKER 1: Okay, usually I interview people [unintelligible - 00:00:33] closer and then back to you. I was telling your father that I've interviewed a lot of people in your family, okay. So I got a lot of the history from your brother as far as your mother and the restaurant business and – and uh, I thought it would be interesting if you could just tell me your memories of that, um, not necessarily dates because I really have that but just your memory of uh, her opening the restaurants and – and cooking. I believe she began with pizza? ATILLIO: Yes. Yes, she did uh, prepare pizza for the various people at the uh, the Dupont Facility that is back of us down there on Lancaster Street and the business to get into. We used to drive through the center of Leominster at night and there was the – that was a line outside there and she always felt that if uh, they could do it, she could do it. And so uh, they did. They opened a restaurant down there on Lancaster Street, the Lazy A. It was lazy because they worked very long hours but uh, we did have the restaurant there. That was when I uh, back at college at Holy Cross. We, she commuted to school each day and then worked in the restaurant at night. My brother and I used to alternate nights there working in the restaurant, everything. We were chief-cooking, [bottle] washers. We would uh, help cook the food, prepare it, uh, uh, clean up. I mean if it's done in a restaurant, we did it. SPEAKER 1: I guess it's important to know there are reasons for that?2 ATILLIO: The long hours, it's enough to discourage anybody. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: Then we did that one 'bout a number of years there and uh, until my folks retired. But uh, they were out of the business for five years or so, and my mother was always itching to get back in. So they built the El Camino Restaurant down on Central Street – sold the Lazy A, which is now known as the Gondola, sold it to the same people the El Camino that we sold it to. SPEAKER 1: Oh. ATILLIO: So that was extremely important to my mother. Unfortunately, she had to leave school early and go to work. And she was just [unintelligible - 00:02:54] felt that education was extremely important so that she's determined that we were going to go to school. There was no question about that. SPEAKER 1: And idea of when you were in high school, what would a day be like if – well, actually she didn't open up the Lazy A until you were in college. Is that what you said? ATILLIO: Till I graduated from high school. And the Lazy A was opened, I think, in the spring of 1948. After that time, however, we – father used to work at the DuPont. And he would work the 4-12 shift, I mean, because that paid a little money. And at that time, we were – she was also cooking pizzas at home that we would deliver to the Foster, to the cafeteria at the Foster Grand company. And so before I went to school in the morning, we would deliver pizzas there at the Foster Grand and then go to school. So when I was… SPEAKER 1: And when did you study? ATILLIO: Oh, in the afternoon and evenings. Well, I worked in the afternoon. I worked at the A&P. So we worked every afternoon then, but at night, we would study. It was always important to my folks and we did it. SPEAKER 1: Now was it only you and your brother in the family?3 ATILLIO: No, I have two sisters. Margaret and Margaret's husband own the [Volero] Insurance Agency. He passed away several years ago, and she sold it after that. And my sister Janie is [unintelligible - 00:04:31] thirty years, doing accounting work for them. SPEAKER 1: What was life like as a child? Can you tell me about the neighborhood that you lived in? ATILLIO: It was a good neighborhood. Life, I think, was much better for us than for many other families. My mother was an extremely hard worker. She knew how to stretch things considerably so that – I recall going to school during the depression there. There were many other children that weren't well-dressed as well as they could be and so forth, but we always had decent clothes. My mother made a lot of them. We lived on [unintelligible - 00:05:16] Avenue at that time. We had a large yard there, and we had – always had a large vegetable garden. There were fruit trees there and my mother would can all types of vegetables and fruits and things of that nature. So actually, I always thought we lived very well as compared to a lot. SPEAKER 1: Now when you would work in the afternoon, were you expected to put, let's say, the money on the table? ATILLIO: Oh, yes. The money was turned over to my folks. We got spending money, of course, but we turn the money. It was saved and [unintelligible - 00:05:54] so forth. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: I mean they were never using it to – for daily expenses, I'm sure of that. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: I mean they didn't confide in us. That's just the way everything went, but they had to save money in order to send us to school. SPEAKER 1: What kinds of leisure activities were you involved in?4 ATILLIO: In those days, we did a lot of visiting, obviously, because you didn't have any television. It was visiting with relatives and friends and playing with other children and so forth. And my father's club had an outing every year at Sima Park at Fitchburg, which was a big event and so forth. We go on picnics. We went on many of picnic at the [unintelligible - 00:06:40] Park. It was very enjoyable. But mainly, it was visiting with relatives and friends. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm, were you living in a predominantly Italian neighborhood? ATILLIO: Oh, no. We used to call it the League of Nations that was – there were Italian people there, but there were Irish, German, French –there was everybody. SPEAKER 1: At Longwood Avenue? ATILLIO: Yes. SPEAKER 1: So is it safe to say that you had friends of all ethnic race? ATILLIO: Oh, yes, absolutely, absolutely. There's always somebody around there that, you know, different people, obviously most of the relatives, well, all the relatives, will tag in but friends and so forth with everyone. My mother worked at the DuPont previously, and there were a lot of French-speaking women there and so forth and she learned to speak French working in the factory, so that she could speak… SPEAKER 1: How did as children, how did you really identify your differences? ATILLIO: With regard to ethnic backgrounds or whatever? SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: Oh, we never even thought about it. As I say, there was everybody there. We went out in the street and played. SPEAKER 1: Uh-huh. ATILLIO: And everybody played, regardless of what your background was. And there weren't any problems.5 SPEAKER 1: Oh, there wasn't any tension? ATILLIO: No. SPEAKER 1: Or dissension? ATILLIO: No, no, no. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: No. SPEAKER 1: How about your decision to go to Holy Cross? ATILLIO: Well, my brother was going there and so, you know, little did I know about schools and so forth but he went there so I figured out it would be a good place to go also. There was a question about whether I was going to be able to afford it and so forth. But they made it. SPEAKER 1: Now were you commuting with him and others? ATILLIO: Yes. I had an uncle from Fitchburg, actually, yes, who was the – you indicated that you would interview my Aunt [Doras] and Aunt [Via]. There was my Uncle Charlie who could tell from Fitchburg, and he was going to Holy Cross also. And he had a car and we commuted. There were other people from Leominster that he would pick up in the morning also and, you know, drive to [unintelligible - 00:08:55] after we had the restaurant then there was a little more money around and I had a car to drive back and forth in my senior year. SPEAKER 1: Now were you working at this time also? ATILLIO: Oh, yes. In the restaurant, yes, every other night. SPEAKER 1: Every other night? ATILLIO: Every other night, we worked in the restaurant, yes. But you had the study done during the day at school, during off hours and so forth. SPEAKER 1: What was Sundays like? ATILLIO: Well, when I was small, it was very enjoyable. There was always the big Sunday meal. And, of course, everybody go to church in 6 the morning and come back and there was a big Sunday dinner. And usually in the afternoon, it was lying around, taking it easy, going to visit people, listening to the radio and so forth. In later years, of course, once we had the restaurant, there was work because the restaurant was so full on Sunday. SPEAKER 1: Now was religion important to your family, your parents? ATILLIO: Absolutely. My mother was an extremely religious woman and we were on a very short leash; we didn't stray very far. She was, as I say, she was watching us all the time and brought up in a very religious manner, yes. SPEAKER 1: Were there any gender differences in the family as far as what the boys were expected to do and girls? ATILLIO: Well, not really because there were almost two families there. My brother and I, the girls didn't come along until 15 years later or something like that. And so it's just my brother and I, and we grew up doing housework and everything else. Before we had the restaurant, Saturday was a house-cleaning day, and we did dusting and everything else. And we washed dishes like everybody else. The girls came along at a later time but by then we just couldn't – just dropped the so-called family life because we're working. The girls didn't grow up the same way that my brother and I did because of my visiting and so forth so. But the restaurant was closed on Mondays, and every Monday, I would take the girls – SPEAKER 1: Oh, is education important for the girls to have too? ATILLIO: Oh, yes, yes. My sister Margaret went to Rivier College in New Hampshire, and Janie went to [unintelligible - 00:11:32], did a very good job with the [unintelligible - 00:11:35]. She's been with them a long time, she's almost… SPEAKER 1: Bob, are you bored yet, just sitting there? ROBERT: I'm all right.7 SPEAKER 1: So I thought maybe I could ask you about your childhood. First of all, were your grandparents alive? ROBERT: Yes, they were, yeah. SPEAKER 1: Can you tell me what you remember? ROBERT: My dad's mother didn't pass away until 1997. SPEAKER 1: Don't know, for some reason. The only thing that's been put there – I'm not sure why this is happening. ROBERT: Usually on Sundays… SPEAKER 1: I'm fine, but I'm trying to get in, if you can tell, as close as possible to – so never? ROBERT: Never. SPEAKER 1: You have had something to do with that or…? ROBERT: No, but I, you know, I could see that the hours there were really long, were very long. But no, it's not something I ever thought about up here in town, in Leominster. There were quite a few of us kids there so it was a busy place – a lot of children in the neighborhood too, so it was – well, I'd say we were all pretty much, you know… so, that's what I remember about that. ATILLIO: Well, in a sense it was that because the Oliviers have a French heritage and the [unintelligible - 00:12:55] were Irish and… ROBERT: Right. ATILLIO: We were [turning] to 22 children in those four households or five households, I mean… ROBERT: Well, that's probably true, I think growing, we didn't think so much about our heritage. It wasn't something that really… you know, we go to different churches, I suppose you could say, but that was it. ATILLIO: Well, in my day, of course, you had mostly the first generation… the parents were all immigrants. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm.8 ATILLIO: And obviously they tended to live with other people of their own heritage as a street area. The French were all congregated in Plains. And then that was only because I think you tended to stay among the people that you know and you were comfortable with, so to speak, because you had – many parents spoke only their ethnic language. My grandmother could speak a little English, but not much. It was mainly Italian and she had been in this country for many years. She was 99 and a half and still speaking Italian. And if you go down to, down on the hill, there'll be older people that are still speaking French all the time. So it was just – it isn't like today where everybody's just spread out and has gone everywhere. You tended to stay among the people that you knew and have been and so forth. SPEAKER 1: Is there a – a still… ATILLIO: Some of the old timers, but some of the old ones, yes. And my wife delivers communion to elderly in [unintelligible - 00:14:37] so forth, and some of them only speak Italian – prays in Italian so that she could say the prayers with them. And that was so they knew what to [unintelligible - 00:14:46], not too much. SPEAKER 1: And did your parents –? ATILLIO: Yes, but not always no. No, no – mainly with them it was English. But obviously they knew Italian very well because they were born in Italy and came to this country. But in the home and most of the time, 90 percent of the time, they were speaking English. If they visited other people, they would speak Italian to them depending on, you know, who they were. Those days a lot of the people, the people are a lot more comfortable with their native language. So they – there's not too many of those. SPEAKER 1: Italians? ATILLIO: No, no, no. SPEAKER 1: English?9 ATILLIO: We spoke English all the time. But they never spoke Italian in the house to us. Well, they tried to teach us Italian, but Mother bought books and we took lessons and things of that nature but… ROBERT: Yes, I think we – I think my folks expressed that with us certainly and you know, we would watch very much of, a factor. Yes. ROBERT: Well, I'd set an example I suppose and just seemed more of a natural fit for me than any other … ATILLIO: Oh, there was really no good reason for it. After I graduated from Holy Cross, I went into the service. And when I get out of the service, I didn't really know what I wanted to do and law school. You know I said not like being [unintelligible - 00:16:21], so I went to law school. It was that simple. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: Oh. SPEAKER 1: Mentor? ATILLIO: No, because I didn't even know any lawyers in those days. I didn't know one, graduated from law school and started working. SPEAKER 1: That's pretty courageous, I think. ATILLIO: It's been a good life, I've enjoyed it. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: Yes. [Angst] instead of leaders, there's no question about that from the way I used to practice, but it's enjoyable. I think when he was in college, he indicated that he wanted to become a lawyer also and I do law schools. I have a daughter who's an attorney. She graduated from [unintelligible - 00:17:09] in nursing and she practiced nursing for several years, but then decided she wanted to go to Arlington and [unintelligible - 00:17:24] John was in Bentley and Christina's wished to stay. All gone to school, but so when you talk about education, yes, we felt it was an… SPEAKER 1: You're the first Italian in Leominster and Fitchburg to graduate from law school?10 ATILLIO: No, oh no. No, there was a – in Leominster there was a Gene Oliver, he was the – when I started he was helping [unintelligible - 00:17:53] and then he was probably in his sixties then. Johnsberg, Paul San Clementi, a number of different Italians as attorneys – many, many more so since then, but they're all over the place now. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: Hmm, you know… SPEAKER 1: What were Sundays like growing up? ROBERT: Some days, everyone was around. It was a family day, you know, we'd usually go to, have a big lunch at home. At times we'd have relatives that would visit or we would go there, maybe – I'm guessing maybe once a month or something. But it was a time that we'd spent at home really. That was my recollection. We could play outside, but it was more of a family day, to be honest. That's what I remember. SPEAKER 1: What are Sundays like? ROBERT: Sundays are a day to relax, you know. You go to church in the morning probably… Well, we don't do that as much. My wife Priscilla and I will spend the day together, because work's in Boston and we don't see each other until, you know, seven, eight o'clock at night usually. And Saturdays, I typically work for at least half the day. So, Sunday we'll probably spend some time together or maybe take a ride or… My Uncle Ed was a fellow who was married to my Aunt Margaret; he had been a city councilor. And I think I always knew growing up that politics would be an interesting thing, like the fun thing to do. I always thought that that would be something I would try, be something I could do on my own so, I decided to run for the Leominster city council. It was a [unintelligible - 00:19:47] after I got out of law school, I graduated in '83 and I, city council in I guess it was '84 because I was elected on the city council. It wasn't really after I got out of 11 law school that I ran for office. And then state representative in Leominster, Angelo [Pacuzzi] passed away. He had been there for, passed away. It was an election year and I decided to run with a number of other politicians, and I was lucky enough to – we have the senate seat opened up and I ran for that too, so that's how it… SPEAKER 1: Um… ROBERT: I think that when Angelo Pacuzzi passed away, my Uncle Ed might have said to me "Gee, you should think about that." And I had to do it, you know. And he was, he was very helpful to me, I couldn't have done it without him. He had been a reporter at Leominster years earlier and he always enjoyed politics too. And he actually helped Angelo Pacuzi when he ran for the seat, you know 15 or 17 years earlier. And there was another guy by the name of [Chockie Antonucci], who was a firefighter, retired firefighter in town. I mean, Chock and Ed, you know, they really helped me out a lot. I never raced – they were actually involved in both of them. They were involved in the city council race, the state representative race and then the senate race; they were great, you know. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: I think so. I mean, I think that the ethnic factor certainly helped in Leominster, no question because, as my dad said there are it's a big [unintelligible - 00:21:22], and I think that that is a – from a politician's standpoint, the ethnic vote is still important and people, particularly those who are older, are certainly willing to consider someone of their heritage. Ethnic factor is a big thing, sure, even today. ATILLIO: I remember the incidents and so forth with all the happenings, yes. We were in Leominster at the time so, you know, we didn't take that much interest, as they would in Fitchburg. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm.12 ATILLIO: But in those days, he mentioned Chock Antonucci and Buck became a fireman. And a big party down there, because I am going on the, into the fire department; there weren't many around even beforehand or something like that, and so this department had a number of Italians. As I say it today, nobody looks at those things anymore. And I think it's for the better, obviously, because it shouldn't make any difference who you are; you know, as long as you are qualified, you should be in these positions. But again in those days, there were close-knit groups than there are today. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. What does it mean to you to be Italian? ROBERT: I had my identity. You know, it's a connection by, you know, cousins and, you know, part of your identity. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: You know, special thing, it is. And it's something you can, well, like I think I would want my children to appreciate. Oh I think you, you learn as you get older that there are people that share a different background with you and you come to appreciate [unintelligible - 00:23:10] that too. And as a legislator, you travel around a bit, you meet a lot of different people from – that's a – so you begin to, I think you appreciate the differences in people, too, that you know otherwise; it gives you a lot of perspective. SPEAKER 1: Now… ROBERT: Actually my wife is half Italian. SPEAKER 1: Is she? ROBERT: Yes, her grandparent – Boston, believe it or not, they were protestants. Her grandparents were Protestants when they came over. I think, Boston – the community in Boston were very supportive of grandparents. I imagine at some point they were Catholic in Italy, but that's just the way it was. And her grandfather was an Italian lawyer in Boston, and she's very proud of that.13 SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: And she's an attorney too. SPEAKER 1: Oh, not moving back to Leominster? ROBERT: Well, I think that being in politics – well, no really. Because when I graduated from law school, it was my intention to come back and work with my dad. So I intended on living here, but now being in politics and serving this area, Leominster, I expect that I'll continue to live in Leominster or the surrounding communities. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: Or one of the surrounding communities, sure. SPEAKER 1: I'd like to continue with… ATILLIO: Leominster, of course, has grown considerably. When I was in high school, there were only about 17,000 people in town. I remember one brochure describing it as a semi-agrarian community. We still had a lot of farms though, yes. Entire outlying areas were all farms here. SPEAKER 1: Uh-huh. ATILLIO: But now 30,000 people now. So the city has grown tremendously; there's no question about that. And the law profession, when I – so 17 lawyers in town and it must be 50 now anyway, tremendous increase in the number of attorneys all over the place now. And the law profession itself has changed. In those days, [aces and] things of that nature, now the actual in case that we take up 10 percent of the law work. You have so many more fields that have opened up. Environmental issue… SPEAKER 1: How is Leominster changed in just the period of time that, you know, you've grown up here and now as far as ethnic composition or is it – does it still have a hometown feel to it? ROBERT: You know that depends on who you ask. If you ask my wife, she'd tell you that it looks like something out of the '50s, you know. But I think it's changed quite a bit. You know, as my dad said, it's 14 really grown. And that I've, you know, come back to practice in the last 17 years or so, it's grown dramatically. I think that you've got many, many people coming from outside the city to live here and work because of its location on route two. And you got many of the developments that were built up on the farms and the old ski area here in town. They tend to be high-priced homes, at least as this area had known the housing scale. And you've got many people coming who didn't grow up here, who really had no connection to Leominster. And that's true, in fact, of the whole area here, the system migration west and because people are looking for affordable housing. Leominster's changed considerably. You know, I still think of it obviously as home. But it's a much busier place. I mean, you can't drive downtown on Saturday without waiting in traffic 10, 15 minutes. Friday afternoons as well, it gets awfully busy – sign of the times. SPEAKER 1: Now I wish [unintelligible - 00:27:24], did you have Italians coming in to be serviced or was it about… ATILLIO: No, not here. I never – quite frankly, we relied on the Italian community for my livelihood. I'm more – Italians, I think the one reason for that might be that my mother and father came from Fitch – Leominster people. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: So and at the time that I was starting, Jimmy Oliver was representing all the Italian people in town and John [unintelligible - 00:28:05] was. And they got the bulk of the Italian trade, so to speak. So it was just regular people, all kinds coming in to different things. The last 25 years or so, I haven't been to court in 20 years now because all I do is mortgage work for banks and probate work for those in the States and things of that nature, so that that in itself is literally with me. Like I said before, he handles far more different things than I ever did. And obviously it won't, 15 well, because I'm reaching the end of the trail here; I've been around 45 years now. But as I say with my work, with doing just mortgage work for banks and things like that, I handled dozens of closings for residential houses and lawns, shopping malls, the whole [unintelligible - 00:29:10] people needed. SPEAKER 1: Oh and initially when you began – I guess this is progress, all that noise outside, right? Anyway, when you first began business, how did people pay for your services? ATILLIO: Well, I was never one to get paid up front, because I knew a lot of the people didn't have a lot of money. And I never lost a lot. I mean I – some bills have gone sour but I never regretted that – I never had a real problem with regard to it. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: But it's interesting, you've just indicated that, the noise of the traffic outside. Well, when I started, we didn't have I-190 or any other highways. And all the traffic used to come right through town here. Everybody going from Worcester up to New Hampshire or through this entire area, they all used Route 12. And Route 12 goes right through the center of town here. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: And you got the traffic light there and you got the traffic light there. And it was amazing, even in those days, the number of trucks that you had. And everyone of them was stopping here and I started out across the street there. And – well I had an office at [unintelligible - 00:30:37] at 39 Main Street. And [unintelligible - 00:30:42] time you have the window opened and it was just trucks, trucks, trucks. And they stop for the lights and they rev the motors and so forth, so you had to close the windows [unintelligible - 00:30:52] try and do anything. So this is nothing compared to what it used to be like. SPEAKER 1: Did you begin by yourself?16 ATILLIO: No, I started next door in this building over here with Isidore Sullivan. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: And I was with him for five years and then I went, branched off on my own. Went across… SPEAKER 1: What's it like working with your son? ATILLIO: It's good, it's very good. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it. We don't have any problems. ROBERT: No. ATILLIO: We understand each other. We ask each other for advice and opinions and so forth. ROBERT: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: And I think the main thing is that it's, you know, we trust each other. ROBERT: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: So that when we ask a question, we're getting a truthful answer, you know for us, in our circumstances and so forth. So that…no, I've enjoyed having him with me tremendously. I don't know what I would have done if he hadn't come here, because I wouldn't have lasted this long, I'm sure of that. ROBERT: And it's been good, it's been very good. If my dad hadn't been an attorney, I don't know what I would have done too. But it's good, you know. I keep telling him that he can retire anytime he wants, although like I secretly don't want him to go. But no, it's been very good, you know. It's been a comfortable place to work. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: You know, I've never really thought of not doing this. The political job has enabled me to do other things, but still allowed me to stay here. And you know, I never thought of going someplace else, you know. It's a very comfortable place and, you know, we know each other obviously and… good, it's been good; I'm glad.17 SPEAKER 1: What happens when he retires? ROBERT: I don't know. [Laughter] He promised me… ATILLIO: I won't be far away. ROBERT: He promised me he won't. So, I don't know. I don't know what I –honest to God, I really haven't thought about it. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: And I keep telling him that, you know, whatever he wants, that's okay. He can do that. But I think my dad, this is like his, it's part of his work, but it's kind of his hobby too, I think really, you know. You know, I like to go fishing and stuff; he doesn't fish. So I think this is…I hope they say I'm honest, you know. I was sensitive to their situation. I guess that's what I would hope they would – I think education seems to have become the real big issue today, at least as I've been there. It's just really grown, you know, both in terms of prominence, in terms of the money that we've committed to it. It really is that the issue people seem to care most about fall pretty close to the other thing by healthcare. That's how it changed a lot. People tend to come to us for just about everything; you'd be surprised. The calls that we get from people that are having a problem with the Registry of Motor Vehicles or the Department of Social Services or traffic light or – you'd be amazed with some of the calls we get. And sometimes if they won't find me, they'll call my parent's house, you know, looking for me. They'd call like late, in the middle of the night sometimes, yes. ATILLIO: Yes, quarter to four the other day. ROBERT: Yes. SPEAKER 1: Quarter to four? AM? ROBERT: In the morning. ATILLIO: In the morning. ROBERT: Yes.18 SPEAKER 1: What happened? They can't wait or something? ATILLIO: We got to talk to the senator. [Laughter] SPEAKER 1: But not at that time. ROBERT: I think my mother hung up on them, which is pretty unusual for my mother to hang up on anybody but… ATILLIO: No, she said, "Call the office in the morning, not now." ROBERT: Ah, right. ATILLIO: You realize what time it is? My wife is a much nicer person than I am. [Laughter] ROBERT: I was friendly with Paul. I always liked him. He had been a legislator for a long time. We have a number of mutual friends, so I didn't endorse him when he ran as a Democrat. SPEAKER 1: Okay. ROBERT: He really – but I didn't endorse the Democrat either, who's running against him last time. You know, I think that on Beacon Hill, a lot of the partisan stuff is put aside most of the time. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: When the governor takes a position, very often it's partisan with the speaker or the senate president, but for the average person out there, you know, I think that you've got to have your eyes open and just kind of do what you think is the right thing and not so much what the political thing is, or what the partisan thing to do is. I think people don't really care about that a lot. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: So I didn't have a hard time working with Paul Cellucci or Bill Weld or James Swift. I got along well with Mike Dukakis too. It didn't really matter who the governor was, or the party so much, I don't think. Once they ran, you know. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: I mean you got to work with people. SPEAKER 1: So do you ever reflect on…19 ROBERT: Oh yes. SPEAKER 1: Where you are now? ROBERT: Sure, yes. I'm sure for them it was a real – I'm very lucky, you know. I know that. We were brought up, you know, our parents were there and they gave us a great education. We had a great family life, there was a lot of love there and that made all the difference. We all went to good schools. We had advantages that my grandparents never had, you know, on either side of the family, in terms of education and the ability to provide for ourselves. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ROBERT: For most of us, I think it really hasn't been a struggle. And that's, you know, that's a credit to my parents and my grandparents, to set out and establish a home someplace we don't know anyone or maybe they don't even speak the language. People wouldn't think of doing that, but back then it was fairly commonplace with [unintelligible - 00:37:36]. SPEAKER 1: That… ATILLIO: No. SPEAKER 1: That – you know… ROBERT: No, I don't – you know – I don't know. I… ATILLIO: No, that's all right. Marie married… ROBERT: Right. ATILLIO: Someone with no faith. An extremely, extremely good man, don't misunderstand me. But I mean he's not – she's happy and she has beautiful children. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: So… in those days my parents were – well, probably would have been shocked by it, but I mean it's –we're not today. I think one of the big difference is that, is the outside the religious aspect of it, but my graduating class at Holy Cross in 1951, 90 percent of the fellows in that class went into the service – ninety percent. Now I 20 think that's an extremely high percentage. And also that you had handicapped people in the class that were physically unable to go into the service and things like that, or the number of fellows that went into the seminary and so forth. Today, I think you have some patriotism around because of that September 11 incident, but people just don't look at it the same way today as they did. [Unintelligible - 00:38:55] Canada to avoid going into the service, whereas at the draft, they're doing the Vietnam War where you have any number of people that were – there are a lot of changes in the world, there's no question about that. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm [unintelligible - 00:39:09] know? ROBERT: Fortunately I am. SPEAKER 1: And you? ROBERT: I think you've covered it pretty well. SPEAKER 1: [Continuation] of the interview, the senator had to leave and I have just one more question for Atillio and that is, what does it mean to be an Italian? ATILLIO: Oh gosh, what's it mean? When you talk about Italian people, the first thing that comes for me is the warmth. It comes from within the people, from within. I think they generally love other people – most definitely strong believers in the family. And Italian mothers, don't cross them or their children because no telling what would happen. There is a great love of the children in Italian families. There's strong family feelings; I grew up with strong family feelings. A week, it was – over any great period of time when we didn't see our grandparents. Fortunately that was just on my mother's side because my father – I'm just happy, I enjoy it. I [unintelligible - 00:40:31] for life, their little [unintelligible - 00:40:34] Italian wedding, you would have fun. There's no question about that. Like to party, they like to eat and drink. And they're the warm, warm people, and I've enjoyed it.21 SPEAKER 1: What for your children? ATILLIO: Well, I hope that my wife and I have gotten along extremely well. And we've lived our years together, now we'll be in July and we've had six children and happy. I would hope that they would have the same happiness that we had, but as I say, unfortunately it's a different world out there. We intended to have as many children as the good Lord sent us and he sent us six. And we've been very happy with that, but I think the – I have two daughters that have children, most of them today and been running around that everybody does today, just the frantic pace out there now, that fortunately most of us did – everybody wants and all the new cars and so, they're cheating themselves in some form, but that's their decision and they do what they have to do. My wife didn't work; when the children were older, she used to help me out in the office and so forth. But it was the same with my brother, his wife worked with the children at home. She took care of the home and – because when I was sick, my wife took care of me, and I… SPEAKER 1: To take care of each other? ATILLIO: Yes, yes. Take care of each other and take care of your family. And that was the important thing. That's about it. Oh yes, I think you've covered everything. I'm sure I'll think of a thousand things after you're gone, but… SPEAKER 1: You can certainly call. ATILLIO: But, no I'm a – as I say, as far as – I've been very happy being Italian. I've grown up with a lot of wonderful people and workers. Kevin, my cousins, they are the Ballerin sisters; they're both doctors so on, so forth. Their parents worked extremely hard [unintelligible - 00:42:49], and then she had the bakery there. They get up at [three] [unintelligible - 00:42:53], taken several trips to Italy now, and they've been friendly to us, always been warm and…22 SPEAKER 1: Your ancestral village? ATILLIO: Oh, yes, as a matter of fact last fall. SPEAKER 1: Last fall? ATILLIO: Last fall we were there. With the trip to the lakes where [unintelligible - 00:43:11] in Italy and then we went to the house of my wife, my mother was born in, in Revine Lago. And that's a swirl of mountains there. They lived in what they call 'the castle.' It was a castle [unintelligible - 00:43:29] in the center of the town – that lives there. Seventeen hundred years old. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. ATILLIO: You know, last fall. My wife and I have been there before, but this is with the rest of the family. SPEAKER 1: Did you ever meet any of your cousins? ATILLIO: Oh yes. SPEAKER 1: Yes? ATILLIO: Yes, I've met many of them. Very hospitable to us when we went there last fall and so forth, having the – and they've come here and they stayed at my mother's house and… SPEAKER 1: And [unintelligible - 00:44:04] speaking, how were they different as far as lifestyle? ATILLIO: Well, I think the only difference is they don't go to the malls like we do all the time, because it's not in the large cities. They're working, they have decent jobs – well, some of them have done very well for themselves and all well dressed and they all appear to eat well – even, I'm sure that if you go up to New Hampshire from here, the people in some of those small towns lived differently than we do here in Leominster. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm, interesting. ATILLIO: That's all. SPEAKER 1: Well, okay, well, I thank you very much./AT/ee
In: CIC Mazzaferro, Maryanne Taylor and Rose Mary Pepin 1-1 - Final.pdf
Interview with Mary Anne Taylor and Rosemary Mazzaferro Pepin. Topics include: Memories of their grandmothers. Their parents spoke Italian. The difference between children in Italy today and children in the United States. Living close to family. The work Mary Anne and Rosemary do. What their mother is like. Italian food and cooking. Faith and going to church with their families. The importance of education, getting good grades, and going to college. Mary Ann and Rosemary went to Holy Cross. The differences in how Mary Ann and Rosemary were raised compared to their brothers. The support of their parents. Memories from living on Central Street. Growing up with their cousins nearby. What their Italian heritage means to them. The immediate impact of September 11th. Mary Anne's hair accessory business. Their parents' strong work ethic. ; 1 INTERVIEWER: …with the Center for Italian Culture at 12:55. And [unintelligible - 00:00:10] at their parents' house at 575 West Street. If you could just tell me your names, just so I can make sure this is being recorded. ROSE MARY: Rose Mary Peppin. MARYANNE: Maryanne Taylor. INTERVIEWER: Okay, now it's working. I'll be asking questions. MARYANNE: 'Cause I don't know what this is about… INTERVIEWER: Now, I'd like to -- I'll go out with, first of all, tell me a little about you grandparents if you remember them at all. MARYANNE: The only ones we could remember is our grandmothers. Both are grandfathers were passed on before we were born. Our grandmothers were elderly when we were small, right. So as far as I remember, my grandmother, my father's mother, [unintelligible - 00:00:57], she stayed at home and she cooked and took care of her family, and it was the same with my mother's mother, Carmela Guglielmi. She did pretty much the same thing. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Were they living close by to each other? Or… ROSE MARY: My dad's mother, [unintelligible - 00:01:18], she lived not far from Saint Andrew's Church. And [unintelligible - 00:01:24] about her because she passed on when I was… MARYANNE: I was eight. ROSE MARY: So I was like six. I just remember her being in the kitchen and just kind of stirring things around. I don't really have a great recollection… MARYANNE: She used to make Italian cookies. That's the one thing I remember about her. She always made the best. And she always had [unintelligible - 00:01:49] or very often when we came to visit. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember [unintelligible - 00:01:53]?2 ROSE MARY: They spoke English, but they spoke Italian with their children. They spoke English to use, but they didn't speak it very well. A bit of a broken English. Not extremely, but -- and Italian accent. MARYANNE: Broken English for sure with dad's mother is what I would always remember, and pretty good [unintelligible - 00:02:15]. ROSE MARY: Right. They would always speak Italian to each other when they didn't want us to know what they were talking about. We remember that. Do you remember that? MARYANNE: I remember that. INTERVIEWER: Your parents would speak Italian, in the house with the kids? MARYANNE: I don't remember that. But I remember with their friends that were Italian, and again, if they were explaining something that was not for the kids' ears, they would get into Italian. ROSE MARY: They would speak Italian with their parents but not with us. And not with each other, I don't think. Not with their brothers and sisters. They spoke English. INTERVIEWER: Do you ever wish that you had learned? ROSE MARY: Definitely. I have learned a little bit of Italian myself. MARYANNE: I did learn a little bit myself also. ROSE MARY: I spent a couple of years living in Italy. And so -- and at that time I could speak Italian. Not fluently, but enough to get by. But that was in the early '80s, and because nobody speaks Italian, I have forgotten just about everything. But I do very much wish that I had Italian. I'm in touch with my Italian relatives in Italy. A lot of them speak English because they learned it in school, but it would be nice to be able to speak Italian to them also. It would be easier to communicate. INTERVIEWER: Why did you live in Italy? ROSE MARY: Well, my ex-husband was in the military. He was in the Navy, and we were stationed there for two and a half years. So we were stationed in Naples, Italy. So at that time I spent a lot of time 3 visiting relatives. And I got to know them and maintain those friendships right up to today. Last summer, my son and I—my son just turned 14—we went to visit with them. And the neat thing about it is that it is hard to keep in touch with people that live in Italy because the long distance phone calls and everything. But now because of email, my son, who is 14, has a teenage cousin over there that they can email each other back and forth, and it's no more expensive than talking with your friends through email. And they can communicate on all different levels. Some of them are very good with English. Some of them are really struggling, but they all study it in school. So they are able to communicate. It's a little strained with some of them because they really have to think about what they want… INTERVIEWER: What were the years that you lived in Italy? ROSE MARY: It was 1982 to 1985. INTERVIEWER: Getting back to your son, and we will get back to the other things, I'm sorry but, your 14-year-old son. Do you see any differences between him and… ROSE MARY: The ones that live in Italy? Yes, I do. Maybe actually I don't. In some ways I think that their families are a lot closer there. I mean, we have a close family, but I think that -- for example all the cousins in Rome, they all live very close to each other, and they want to be that way. None of them want to leave Rome. They all want to be with their family and live near the family. Whereas I think these kids, they want to go off to college, they want to go live somewhere else, they want to experience things that are away. Other than that they seem very similar in a lot of ways in that they love the same things. They love rock music, they love going to the beach, they love going to the clubs, you know. 4 A lot of the Italian kids listen to American music. So they have that in common. Video games, they play video games. They have a lot of things in common. There is not drinking age in Italy. And according to all my Italian relatives there is no problem with alcohol. Alcoholism is rare in Italy. And kids wanting to drink, they are able to drink. They are able to go to bars from their early teens, pre-teens, and they aren't that interested in drinking. But they may order a drink at the age of 14 or 15 but they don't get drunk. And we did go to bars when we were visiting them last summer. They were all about the same age 14, 15, 16 to 18, and they would order a drink or two drinks at a bar, but they would never get drunk. INTERVIEWER: What about your son? ROSE MARY: My son isn't really interested in drinking. He's, you know, like I said, he just turned 14, so he was actually only 13 last summer. He would try them, just take a taste, to have the taste of the Italian liquor that, you know, we can't get here, but that's all. He wasn't really interested in drinking. He is still very young for that. MARYANNE: Something that you mentioned about the kids now, with your son and the numerous [unintelligible - 00:07:17] to my parents. I think what you said about them wanting to go experience new things, I think college and then, you know, look for different jobs than we are, I didn't have any interest in being back in Leominster. I wanted to, you know, live elsewhere and just from where college took me to different jobs. And then just 10 years later, I am back in Leominster, and you know, just the way things happened. And then, and you look at and you value the families more, I think when you do have kids. And I think with my mother and father it was just totally different world then, but they -- just the way things happened, Leominster boy meets Fitchburg girl, and they marry, 5 and everyone is from the same area. So I think that's just the change… INTERVIEWER: What do you think is the stimulus for that? MARYANNE: Education. I think the opportunity you can do whatever… ROSE MARY: And also, I think that the generation that is growing up right now [unintelligible - 00:08:22] our generation is more like my parents' generation. For example, my mother's family, my mother has three sisters and herself. She's the one that moved farthest away, moving from Fitchburg to Leominster. But her sister, one of her sisters never got married and stayed right in the house and still lives there today. You know, she has been living in the same house for 70 something years. Her other sister moved next door, built a house next door. Her other sister moved just up the street. My father's side the same way. His father and mother had a house. One of his brothers moved next door. One of his brothers moved behind the house, and the others were all kind of in the area. And the people seem to be like that still. They get married but they just move very close by. In fact, my cousins in Italy -- I don't work, we have a big family business with the plastic factory. I don't work in the family business. And my cousins in Italy had a hard time understanding that. Why, because when there is a family business in Italy, the whole family works in the family business, and it doesn't make sense to work somewhere else. They couldn't, you know -- it's a different kind of thinking. They couldn't understand that oh, well I want to do something different. INTERVIEWER: Did your parents? ROSE MARY: Oh, yes. They don't have any problem with it. Like my sister just said, she never even thought that she would come back and work in the family business. And it wasn't really a thought that we had to work in the family business growing up. We could do whatever 6 we wanted. But in Italy it's just more expected that you work in the family business. They still have that kind of thinking, I think, that, you know, they're all tied up with their families and all working together, all living close by each other. INTERVIEWER: How is it that you both ended up back in Leominster even though you didn't foresee that? MARYANNE: I went out to college and then got a journalism degree in Chicago. And then from that I was looking for jobs in the newspaper industry, and the job I got took me to Florida. So I lived in Florida for about three years and got a little discouraged with that just because of the -- it just wasn't a great fit for what I wanted to do, and the pay was not very good in Florida and also in the newspaper industry. So I started doing different sales jobs. And so I did that for a while, and then my mother was calling and saying come back, come back, and I just was -- I was happy there; I just wanted to experience life outside of the area. But then my brother, who was actually working in the family business, he was saying we really need some help in the family business doing sales. And so I thought about it and thought about the climate, because also the Florida heat was not grand. I did like the skiing and all that, so I just, I came back at that point and lived in different, lived in the area, and then lived in the Boston area for a little bit. And that's how I came back. INTERVIEWER: So then you ended up marrying someone? MARYANNE: Actually, I married someone from, who grew up in Westborough, Mass. We just met at a local health club. And we just were friends and then we got married and ended up finding a house in Leominster. And now, I actually -- well, now I don't really work in the family business, but I used to be part of it, and I bought part of the business, and it's a hair accessory business. And then -- so 7 that's still based in Leominster and is -- because it's tied into plastics, and I used [unintelligible - 00:12:12] some of the products so it just made sense that I'm here and being now 40. But even at 30 I could just see the benefit of Leominster, the town of Leominster, versus living in Boston with the traffic and all that. And it's a nice place to raise kids. So that's why I'm back here. That's the long story. INTERVIEWER: Does your husband work in the business? MARYANNE: Right before the birth of my second child he left his job to work with me, which -- it would have been a hell of a business because I couldn't do it with two kids and using daycare as we wanted, limited daycare. So he did join the business, and now the two of us are together. It's called Good Hair Days, Incorporated. INTERVIEWER: I love that name. Who thought up that name? Did you think of that name? MARYANNE: Yes. It's six years old now, and it started in 1996. INTERVIEWER: How did you end up back in Leominster? ROSE MARY: It was really just kind of by chance. I did want to come back to New England because I live in different places that didn't have any seasons. I loved the change of seasons in New England. And I just wanted to come back to New England, and it just turned out that it was convenient to live in Leominster. You know, the housing market at that time was good for me. One I got settled in, I just didn't move. INTERVIEWER: Were you still married at that time? ROSE MARY: At that time I was still married. Yes. But not now. Though it kind of worked out for me to stay in Leominster. I mean, I had a very small child, a one-year-old, on my own, so it did help to be around family. INTERVIEWER: And what business are you in? You're in real estate?8 ROSE MARY: I'm in real estate. Real estate broker, and -- no, I don't. I work at the Boss realty group in Leominster. INTERVIEWER: What's the name of it? ROSE MARY: Boss, B-O-S-S. That's my life in English, certified to be a high school, English teacher. But I haven't done it. I've actually done teaching when I was in Italy. In fact I taught English as a second language at the adult night school, which is a very fun job. When I came back here I was actually going to go into teaching, but at that time I was starting to go on my own at that time, so I went into something else where I could make a little more money. INTERVIEWER: Thought of the plastics industry? ROSE MARY: Yeah, I thought of it. I did work for a little while in it, when my son was young, but it's just not something I wanted to stay with. And I do like what I do. And it's working out well for me. INTERVIEWER: In fact, you invest in real estate property. ROSE MARY: Right. Mainly I do real estate investments. I do brokerage also but mainly I do investing. And it's been working out very well, so. I'm my own boss, which I really like. You know, I do work for a company, but as a broker you're an independent contractor, so you do your own thing pretty much, your own hours, things like that. INTERVIEWER: Your family rarely spoke about your father's mother. What can you remember about your mother's mother? ROSE MARY: Mother's mother was living until we were well into our twenties, probably mid or late twenties. 1983 is when she passed away. [Unintelligible - 00:15:32] MARYANNE: We visited, and she used to come around. She had a lot of energy, like my mother, is what I remember. Going to the Cape house, a weekend on the Cape. And I can remember going shopping. We were teenagers or adults or something, and it would be my mother, my mother's mother, and, you know, several kids. And I can 9 remember my grandmother just wearing everybody out shopping. She kept going and going. ROSE MARY: She loved to shop. MARYANNE: Picking out for her, however many grandkids she had. She just, would keep shopping. ROSE MARY: Going and going. MARYANNE: [Unintelligible - 00:16:15] Christmas tree shops and wherever else and just shop. And also she would always, whenever we visited, she would have Stella Doro cookies, and we had to take them home. No matter if we were on diets. ROSE MARY: She loved us like that. MARYANNE: You gotta eat. You gotta eat, and that's the way my mother is, too, with us, I can remember. And now with our kids, trying to eat lunch, early supper. ROSE MARY: Very religious, she went to mass every day, which my mother does now too, every morning. She would walk to church all the way up until she was well into her mid to late eighties. She would walk to church. INTERVIEWER: And what street was that that they lived on? ROSE MARY: She lived on Belmont Street, and she would walk down to Saint Anthony's Church. Actually, one year she did fall and break her hip on it. But she -- we used to visit her every Sunday. It was a regular routine every Sunday. We would go to church and then we would visit the grandmothers. One or the other or both. INTERVIEWER: Would she have a big dinner for all of you? ROSE MARY: There would be a lot of food and she would love to feed us. She would just keep offering food. And I remember one occasion when my brothers decided they wouldn't say no, they would just keep eating everything that was offered. MARYANNE: I think I remember that.10 ROSE MARY: And she never stopped offering and they just kept eating. I don't know how it finally stopped. They just couldn't do it anymore or something, but she was like that. INTERVIEWER: What was the relationship like between your mother and your grandmother? MARYANNE: They visit each other like once a week. I don't remember if they did talk every day. ROSE MARY: Yeah, they would. You know, that's what I recall, my mother calling at least every day on the phone. INTERVIEWER: Do you have any similarities between the relationship with your mother that she had with hers? ROSE MARY: Yes. Yeah. I say I see a lot of similarities between the way my mother is and her mother is. They both go to church every day, every morning. My mother, you know, they like to tell you how to raise the kids and that kind of thing. And her mother would do that to her. And Ma will do that to us, shoes and those kinds of thing. And my diet and the children's bedtime. All those things, you know. Not in a bad way. Same kind of thing. I think the grandmothers, they like to tell their daughters how to, the best way to raise their kids. MARYANNE: I've had -- you've had 14 years with it. My kids are young, 18 months and three, so. ROSE MARY: Oh, when they're little, I guess. Not as much now. And my [unintelligible - 00:19:07] loves to cook. Every time the kids come in she cooks. It doesn't matter what time it is. She gives them food, she feeds them. You know, feeding them all the time is a really important thing. Especially when they were little. She always had food for them, made a lot of pasta for them. There was always a lot of pasta when we were visiting our grandmother's. And there's a lot for our kids. 11 INTERVIEWER: [Unintelligible - 00:19:35] have you tried to keep up that tradition? ROSE MARY: A little bit. Not like my mother. My mother does cook Italian food. And her mother cooked Italian food… MARYANNE: I know my mother has a meatball recipe that was given to me, and I made it. ROSE MARY: And lasagna recipes. MARYANNE: I know that Nana Mazzaferro had some kind of Italian soup that is a combination of everything [unintelligible - 00:20:02]. My father's sister has that recipe, and she makes it now and then. ROSE MARY: [Unintelligible - 00:20:10] we've taken, and [unintelligible - 00:20:12]. And I love Italian. A lot of the foods that I -- I've actually learned to cook some Italian food when I was in Italy, from my cousins, actually, or just from people that I knew. And I do have those recipes at home. And a lot of the Italian food that you can get in Italy are ingredients, you can't find them here. So, I do try to carry on, I mean, just because I enjoy it. Not really for the sake of the tradition, but I do enjoy the food. You can't, you have to go to the north end, in Boston, to find them, some of the ingredients. [Unintelligible - 00:20:51] I don't know if you ever heard of that. But that's hard to find. INTERVIEWER: What other kinds of traditions to do you try to carry on? What about church? ROSE MARY: I'm not really a regular, but you know, we do try. MARYANNE: [Unintelligible - 00:21:12] about getting there. But you know, we talk about God and Jesus. But they're only… she's only three and one and a half. So one and a half. INTERVIEWER: Whether or not you go to church, that's kind of irrelevant? ROSE MARY: Oh yes, yes. Faith is important. MARYANNE: I believe in God and I believe in teaching them about that.12 ROSE MARY: We would say our prayers every night before going to bed, and I carry that on with my son. Even at 14 he says his prayers every night. You know, we do have faith. A lot of activities. MARYANNE: I remember as a kid growing up that whenever we had -- our cousins would attend, I'd say, my mother -- when we were little I see movies. They were big movie takers, my parents, it seems. The birthday parties were celebrated. And I think we try to do that now with the grandkids. But as they get older they don't want a birthday party, so that's understandable. But for the young ones we still do get together. MARYANNE: As they get older they just want to have birthday parties with their friends. When they were little they all, we all, had birthday parties and we'd all attend. All the aunts, uncles, cousins, so. INTERVIEWER: While you were in school did she work outside of the home? ROSE MARY: Probably when we all reached about junior high school level, and not when we were in elementary school. But she worked with my father in the family business, the plastics business. That's mainly what she did. MARYANNE: I think when I was around 14 or so I think is when she went to college for the first time. So she started studying. Even as we were young kids, babies and all, she would help my dad with any of the accounting business, and just doing some paperwork after the kids were in bed. ROSE MARY: She helped my father all along. She would do paperwork and things on a fulltime basis. Once we got to the junior high school level, and then like you said, when we even got just a little bit older she went back to college. INTERVIEWER: Tell me about that, her going back to college. MARYANNE: I thought it was great. It was something that she wanted to do, and I thought it was great.13 ROSE MARY: Yeah, we thought it was something she always wanted was a college degree, and she was finally able to do it. We were all old enough to take care of us once in a while. We were all in high school. I was in high school at the time. My older brothers were in college. It certainly wasn't a burden on us, not that we couldn't get our own meal or do things like that, so. It was her first opportunity to do it. She would fall asleep at the kitchen table, I remember that, studying. MARYANNE: She'd have her book in front of her and be asleep at the kitchen table. She was doing school plus taking care of the household and the kids and all. She knew it was important, so. INTERVIEWER: What kinds of things can you -- college, was it an option? MARYANNA: Good grades or that sort of thing. ROSE MARY: If we fell below As and Bs, if we got Cs, we were, you know, we had to bring them up. We had to bring our grades up. As and Bs were fine, Cs weren't. They didn't make us crazy about it or anything, but you know, we might have to go and go for some extra help to get that C to a B at least, you know. So yeah, it was always very important that we did very well. She would look at our homework. We were all good students on our own pretty much. On our own we did it, I think. But if we were struggling at any subject she would make sure that we would get extra help and get the grade up. But for the most part we were pretty good on our own. College, yeah, college was just kind of automatically we knew we were going. MARYANNE: As long as we tried, and [unintelligible - 00:25:23] remember getting Bs and Cs, but when you are in grammar school, it's no big deal. But we would try and, like she said, we did pretty well. What I remember though, I guess when I became a teenager, I wanted to earn money and was able to work in the family business, and they sent me to work summers in packaging. And when I 14 experienced working in the packaging department it would be assembly line work, doing the same thing eight hours a day, five days a week, all summer long. I was like, "I'm not gonna do this, I'm going to college." That was my understanding. I wasn't going to stop at high school because I didn't want to work in a factory for the rest of my life. That's kind of what stuck in my mind. And then being the fifth, follow the leader kind of, it just was assumed and I wanted to go. But in retrospect I think if I had waited a year that probably would have been real good, try out different jobs and get direction, but then… INTERVIEWER: Did all of you go to Holy Cross. Did I already ask that question? ROSE MARY: Yes, we all did. INTERVIEWER: How did that… ROSE MARY: That's where they really wanted us to go, and we all just went. INTERVIEWER: Oh, because your father went there, right? ROSE MARY: Right. INTERVIEWER: Because I forgot about that. ROSE MARY: Yeah, he went there. And he's still involved in the college, so. I don't exactly know what he is on, but he's on something. MARYANNE: I think just an alumni; I don't know, like, club or something. ROSE MARY: Right, so. That's where they wanted us to go and… MARYANNE: I think it was just always a backup. I think, you know, they really wanted us to go there, but we had other choices. I don't know if in your situation, but when you got into maybe one or two schools… ROSE MARY: I think that my mother probably didn't want us to go to school in Boston. I think that would have been my choice, but she was a little was a little nervous about Boston. So we ended up at Holy Cross in Worcester, so. It really [unintelligible - 00:27:36] old-fashioned Italian. Right, right. They don't want their daughter going off to the big city. But… INTERVIEWER: Were that many other Italians there?15 ROSE MARY: Actually, no. There weren't. It was mainly Irish Catholics. But all Catholic, but Irish. I think I probably was one of the few 100 percent Italian. MARYANNE: I think I generally -- except maybe this area, that there's not a lot of Italians. ROSE MARY: By the time you get to this generation it is kind of unusual to meet someone all Italian. MARYANNE: There are a lot of French Italians in this area. But, college I don't recall anything unique about being Italian in college. There were not Italian clubs or anything like that. ROSE MARY: There were a few Italians there, but I think the majority weren't. But it really didn't matter, you know. It wasn't a problem. INTERVIEWER: So by that generation… ROSE MARY: I don't think so, no. MARYANNE: It is just having a little bit of Italian in you. ROSE MARY: [Unintelligible - 00:28:40] read the Italian menu in the Italian restaurant a little better, but no, I really -- there was really no difference. INTERVIEWER: Was it important to you? ROSE MARY: Yes, that was probably part of the reason we ended up going there. Religion has always been important. My mother's always wanted us to go to Catholic schools. You know, we started out at Catholic elementary school. Couple years there before we went to public junior high school, just because there was no Catholic junior high school. Otherwise we probably would have ended up in a Catholic junior high at that time. Then we went to a Catholic high school and a Catholic college. My mother's the one that had more to do with our education. Definitely, you know, roles, my mother, the kids in the house, my father's role was earning the money. So yes, [unintelligible - 00:29:28] she wanted… MARYANNE: My mother.16 ROSE MARY: My mother, yeah. Probably not because of Italian, just their personalities. You know… MARYANNE: And then just being home, my dad, I just remember him working all the time. ROSE MARY: Right, dad worked a lot. He was always working. So, mom was home. So mom was the one that took care of the kids. You know, made sure the homework was done. Mom was always involved with educations, whereas dad was busy working. Not that education wasn't important to him… it was, but you know, working full time doesn't leave helping kids with their homework and making sure everything gets done. INTERVIEWER: Oh, why? SPEAKER 1: Maybe it was my. INTERVIEWER: Maybe your parents had different goals. Did the children also -- were there big gender differences growing up? ROSE MARY: I think when we were younger I would feel that -- I have three brothers, and I think the girls always have to do the housework. MARYANNE: Setting the table, clearing the table… ROSE MARY: Setting the table, clearing the table, Saturday morning vacuuming, dusting, and my brothers basically didn't have to do any of that. It was just the way it was with my parents. My mother took care of the house. My father took care the outdoors. My brothers had to take the trash out and mow the lawn. But… MARYANNE: Snow blow. ROSE MARY: Snow blow the drive way. They never really did any work indoors. And yeah, I remember I used to feel that it was unfair because we seemed like we had more work to do than they did. But, I mean, they got -- they were raised that way but now that they're older and they're -- they're not that way at all. They do, you know, housework and everything else, but they were raised 17 definitely for the girls to be trained in doing this and the boys to be doing that. INTERVIEWER: [Unintelligible - 00:31:14]. ROSE MARY: No. I only have one son, and I do have him do some cooking so he learns how to cook and he does some housework so he learns how to do housework. He doesn't do a lot. I mean, typical 14-year-old, right? But I do have him do some things so he'll know how to do things when he has to do them on his own. INTERVIEWER: Were their expectations different? ROSE MARY: No, I don't think so. I think we were all expected to get educated, and it just was around the house, I would say that we were definitely doing the housework. The girls, yeah. MARYANNE: Yeah, I agree with that. INTERVIEWER: What about socializing? Could you go out as much or date as much, or…? ROSE MARY: And my brothers, I think there was a lot more protection for us. We weren't allowed to do as much. MARYANNE: You're older and you remember… ROSE MARY: I was the icebreaker… ROSE MARY My older brothers Abel and Tony doing things and probably, you know, wearing down our parents a little bit, and then, you know, the first son does something and the second son wants to do this. But then when the first daughter comes along, she had [unintelligible - 00:32:29], and then by the time I came along it was like, oh okay, you know, it's okay, Maryanne did that and I can do that. But there weren't as many battles for independence. ROSE MARY: But I think when it was my turn I wasn't allowed to do things my brothers got to do at the same age, so. INTERVIEWER: Then to college. Were you expected to do certain things on the weekend? Did you -- were you expected to come home on weekends?18 MARYANNE: No. No. They never expected us to come home on weekends unless we wanted -- stay there and do whatever we want. Go to the sports events. Go to the parties. Socialize. Be involved in whatever. No, there was no pressure to come home. No, there was no pressure to marry an Italian. But I heard my father say once, "It would be nice to have one of my kids marry an Italian." But there was never any pressure. INTERVIEWER: Did that happen? Are there any Italian spouses? No. ROSE MARY: No. No. Not one. Not even part Italian, I don't think. INTERVIEWER: But did you marry in the same religion? MARYANNE: I think yes. For my mother, especially. Yeah. ROSE MARY: That didn't happen either. Not with everybody. Ed's married to a Catholic. Abel's married to a Catholic. I wasn't married to a Catholic. Three out of five. Not bad. INTERVIEWER: Do you find that important to your children to marry the same faith? ROSE MARY: No. I don't think so. I think what's more important to me is that, you know, something that's extremely different would probably be a little difficult for me just because we didn't -- take Christmas. If my son were to marry somebody that, for example, was Jewish, and didn't celebrate Christmas, and you had [unintelligible - 00:34:27] because a lot of people do. They marry somebody who's Jewish, and then he didn't celebrate Christmas anymore. It would be a little difficult, because you know, we enjoy celebrating [unintelligible - 00:34:37] holidays together, and a lot of them are based on the religion—Christmas, Easter and -- so that would be that be a little hard not to be able to celebrate those things with him anymore. But I would accept it, totally accept it if that's what he wanted, if that's what made him happy. 19 MARYANNE: Yeah. I think the person that they marry and the relationship that they have, you know, [unintelligible - 00:34:59] would react today. [Unintelligible - 00:35:03] family together. ROSE MARY: You know, my [unintelligible - 00:35:09] both my parents, you know, it's important. MARYANNE: I think that they supported us a lot. I know just like we supported each other. My brothers were active in sports, and they, you know, basketball. My brothers were in high school, the whole family would go and watch the games and that would happen frequently. They just did that. So we knew that we were important to them. In college they would drive out to the games and try to go watch the games or the games so they could watch their son or daughter. Family just was normal. INTERVIEWER: Because it didn't all get picked up. Just about your parents going to see the games. MARYANNE: With my brothers, and they would just follow the family. If it was a sporting basketball games or football games, they would drive wherever if it was going to Worcester, they would just go and watch, and they did that in college, junior high school, and grammar school and when the kids were young, the kids would go right along. So we were just together as a family. And it was just -- that was normal life for us was to go and watch the brothers and sisters play basketball. ROSE MARY: Plus they treated us all family, so there wasn't -- the family relations were always important, and we were raised and taught that from a very early age: be good to your brother, be good to your sister. Watch out for your sister, you know, watch out for your little brother, whatever, kind of thing, so. INTERVIEWER: Do you feel that's an Italian-related trait? ROSE MARY: Yes, I think so. I mean, not just Italians. I'm sure there's probably lots of groups that, you know, the family is very important. But 20 yeah, I think there are a lot of families that the family is not important at all. But I don't see that that much in Italian families. I see that the family is there. When someone has a problem everybody supports them and helps them out or whatever. And probably when we were growing up, when we were little, you know, Sundays. Sundays, it was the same routine every Sunday. Get up. Go to church. Go out to lunch after church or go to the grandmothers. And that would be the Sunday. But that's when we were little. Then when we get older, everybody's got their own activities, sports events, whatever. So everybody, once we get older, we didn't really have a special family… MARYANNE: While everyone else in was the country, we used to watch Walt Disney. I remember playing cribbage. I'd learned how to play cribbage with my dad and used to on occasion play blackjack with pennies at the kitchen table and the whole family would do that. It all kind of goes by. I mean, it just goes by in a blur. INTERVIEWER: [Unintelligible - 00:38:07] important to your family? ROSE MARY: Yes. My mother wanted us all to learn to play the piano, right? So it was important that we could read music and play an instrument. INTERVIEWER: I got the impression that you quit, maybe? ROSE MARY: Oh, sure. Like every other kid. Actually, I was [unintelligible - 00:38:27] but that's how you feel when you get older, right? MARYANNE: I taught my daughter that. ROSE MARY: I know. Yeah, you can tell your daughter that. MARYANNE: Yeah, and expose her. She wanted to expose us to different things, and my dad also would as we got older, he'd want to take us to a different restaurant, and [unintelligible - 00:38:42] something unusual. Just -- and have a well-rounded background. And always the one thing and then Maryanne and I, we just left them. But we continued with it to the point where we wanted to. It wasn't like they expected us to perform or the same thing with piano. If we 21 had natural ability, great. But there was some exposure. And, you know, I'm glad about that. INTERVIEWER: How did they make each of you feel special? [Unintelligible - 00:39:19] But, I mean, think of it, five kids. ROSE MARY: We used to all feel special. Gee, how did that happen? Well, I think that if we did something that deserved a compliment, we would get a compliment. I don't think that they ever praised us when we didn't deserve any praise, but they would, you know, say things like better, or I would expect something better from you or something like that. MARYANNE: I can just think of some specifics. Just little compliments that when you get to the age that -- and this would be probably in the mid to late ' 60 where my mother had [unintelligible - 00:40:08] home from school and then I could go run to the post office and then she could just drop me off and I'd run do that and say, "Oh, good little helper." INTERVIEWER: But just like little things like that? ROSE MARY: Right. Yeah, little compliments here and there, you know. I always made my bed in the morning and put all my things away. I'd hear, you know, that you're always as neat as a pin, you know, or things like that, just little -- on everyday kind of activities, every day, everyday things. MARYANNE: Didn't realize when it was happening, but now you think back… ROSE MARY: Right. Right. Exactly. You just have to think about what did they do to make me feel special. INTERVIEWER: Can you think of anything. a big event that stands out in your mind? Just little everyday things that add up over time. What's your hardest experience growing up? ROSE MARY: I'm trying to think, my hardest experience. MARYANNE: I have to get going in a short while because I'm away from work.22 INTERVIEWER: Okay. MARYANNE: Is there something that you wanted to ask specifically? INTERVIEWER: I want to ask about Central Street. How long did you live there? ROSE MARY: I was eight when we moved out. MARYANNE: So that was 1960… ROSE MARY: Seven. August of '67 is when we moved here. I remember we had not moved in. I had my 6th birthday party here before we moved in because we moved in, in August, so. MARYANNE: I remember running around in the backyard at Central Street and my aunt lived over the hill in the backyard, and running over there. I don't remember a whole lot being that age. INTERVIEWER: Italians living around here? ROSE MARY: Yeah. I think at that time there were a lot of Italians in that area. And our aunt, again, lived right behind us. And I had a uncle that lived just a little ways across the street, down the street a little bit. I remember a lot about living on Central Street because I was a little bit older. It wasn't like a heart-wrenching thing to move or anything, it was actually a very tiny little house, and my parents [unintelligible - 00:42:17] one child. When they moved out they had five children. INTERVIEWER: So a small… ROSE MARY: It was a very small ranch, and we were very crowded in there. And I can remember my mother just constantly arranging the furniture. Everything was like it happened all the time to me, but it probably didn't happen that often. Just trying to fit things in, you know, having to move the boys to another bedroom, because now there's three boys, and that's what I remember. So it wasn't -- we really needed a bigger house. So when we moved here, it was amazing. This house is three times bigger than the other one, and we had just one bathroom at that house. And there was five children and two adults living there. 23 So we have four bathrooms here. And I remember the first time I went to the bathroom, I had a hard time deciding where to go, which one to use. It was like I never had a choice before. But it wasn't an upsetting event or anything. It wasn't hard. It was really exciting. It was really exciting to move into a bigger house. Maybe I was nine years old when we moved. But I do remember being very crowded at that house. It was a three-bedroom ranch. One bedroom was used as an office for my father because at that time he was doing a lot of CPA work, so it was really just two bedrooms. MARYANNE: And my parent's bedroom was the living room. You walk in the front door and that was their bedroom. ROSE MARY: And my parents used the living room as their bedroom. And my brothers, for a while, they were out on this addition, which was like a porch but it was like a three-season porch. It was heated, but it was my brother's bedroom for a while and then we rearranged the whole house again, and you know… INTERVIEWER: Maybe we don't remember just the feeling that you had living in that neighborhood compared to this. ROSE MARY: Right. MARYANNE: Maybe that house wasn't even built before. I don't know. ROSE MARY: Yeah. I guess I remember that neighborhood really knowing everybody—mom, the kids. I could go door to door there. In this neighborhood, it took a while for meet people, and I didn't know, I don't even know the young people next door, but I might know the people two doors down or three doors down because they had kids. But in that neighborhood, I can remember back to when she was very little and she started to walk, now she must have been one. I can remember taking her for a walk around the whole 24 neighborhood, going from door to door to door, because I knew all the neighbors and showing them her. MARYANNE: I was her baby. ROSE MARY: She was my baby, right, and she was walking. You probably were a year old because it was summertime, and you were born in August. You were probably just a year because I was probably like three and a half, so. And that's the kind of neighborhood it was. I mean, I knew all the mothers. I knew all the kids. It was very safe. Can you imagine letting a three-and-a-half-year-old take a one-year-old for a walk now? But I did. . MARYANNE: There weren't a lot of houses though, I mean, it was… ROSE MARY: No. MARYANNE: It was Basset Street, which was just Aunt Eva's house. ROSE MARY: Right. MARYANNE: I don't know if you know that area, but with the [unintelligible - 00:45:19] is. INTERVIEWER: Your mother took me a long time ago. MARYANNE: It's a very short street, and then there's Christie Street, which probably at the time there was only about six houses on there. MARYANNE: Yeah, most of the houses are [unintelligible - 00:45:30]. ROSE MARY: Now, it's much further developed. MARYANNE: But still, I would never allow my three-year old out of sight… ROSE MARY: Right. And I was completely out of sight from the house. I mean, you couldn't see where I was from our house was. Yeah, [unintelligible - 00:45:47] in those days, or in that neighborhood. INTERVIEWER: You must have cousins, right? ROSE MARY: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: That are living, that grew up in Leominster in that small neighborhood… ROSE MARY: There's no differences between myself and my cousins and my father, probably the only one in his family that went to college, 25 right, I think? No. There's a big difference in the way, you know, his brothers lived compared to him. But I think their kids, for the most part, have gotten, you know, my cousins have gotten education and jobs, and you know, we're all living about the same. I mean, some people have more, some people have less. There isn't a big difference between myself and my cousins, but there is a difference my parents and their siblings and cousins. INTERVIEWER: How about growing up? MARYANNE: Every kid growing up, we just were playing with our cousins ,and what my dad did and their dad did didn't really -- we used to be able to play hide and seek a lot more, run around in the yard. ROSE MARY: Right. There was no judgment at all. And I don't think we really noticed a difference when we were growing up. It's true that we did, we probably the biggest house, but I don't think we had more than my cousins. We probably had the same amount. We didn't have better clothes or better toys or anything. We had about the same. You know, the kids all had about the same. We didn't have more clothes and more toys because my parents had more, but we probably did live in a bigger house. But kids I don't think noticed that as much. I don't remember noticing any difference. I think that actually my parents are very successful, but when we were growing up, they were building their business and they were building up their [unintelligible - 00:47:30], you know, so I think that a lot of money they had was really tied up in the business. So it never felt like we had a lot of money. I mean, it felt like we had everything we needed. We were perfectly comfortable. We had some luxury items, you know, my family had some luxury items, but I never really felt like we were rich or anything like that. I mean, I don't [unintelligible - 00:47:50]. But I never really felt 26 that, I mean, but the house, yeah, you might say that, you know, we would know that. But I think that a lot of money was always tied up. And probably when we got into our 20s, it seemed like suddenly that they had more money, because I think at that time, the businesses really just boomed, and that's like 20 years ago. But by that time we were already grown, you know, and on our own. Half of us were on our own, at least. Other than we had the big house where we usually the holiday parties were here and everything. Yeah, there was a tennis court. I guess that would make us seem like we had a lot. But it was different in those days, too. I mean, it was just a hard top, but it wasn't -- it wasn't beautifully sealed and painted and striped and fenced in. It wasn't. It was just like a black top. Really, it had a tennis net going across it, but it wasn't as nice then as it is now. We would just ride our bikes on it. We would play chicken. MARYANNE: Chicken, four square. ROSE MARY: Yeah. You had -- we didn't use it for tennis that much. I mean, a little bit but… MARYANNE: When we got older we did. ROSE MARY: Yeah. And then we'd just ride our bikes out there. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So [unintelligible - 00:49:13] a hard question? MARYANNE: It's really not something that I think about. You know what, I'm just who I am, and I have to think family is important to me. But my husband, who's French, and his family is very close too. So I don't see a difference… SPEAKER 5: Only your kids are too young. They wouldn't even know. ROSE MARY: My son, you know, probably considers himself Italian. He's half Italian, because I'm 100 percent Italian, but the other half is a lot of 27 different things. He says he's half Italian, you know. Plus that we've been to Italy and he has formed a bond with his cousins in Italy. Been there twice, so. He likes his Italian heritage. MARYANNE: I could see that, but first I have my own business and I have friends, so I scramble every day for time. So I would want to take care of both of those things first and as they grow, I can see myself doing some of that, but not to the extent that she does. Traveling -- she's what, 79? But to see them and be part of their lives. ROSE MARY: For me, I probably just see myself, I'd say, would have more time on my hands and do some volunteer work. Probably not to that same extent, 'cause my mother has a lot of energy. But I do see myself doing some things, yeah, definitely. When I have more time. I think that Leominster's very worthwhile. I don't have time to enjoy it, you know. I like the open land that we're trying to preserve through the Open Land of Leominster. I think that's really being developed, and we've really wiped out all our open space. So we're down to our last apple orchard, which at least we've saved. You probably know about Sowan Farms? I'm very glad that we saved that. It was one apple orchard, one apple farm. So I can see myself getting involved in things like that, plus the Historical Society of Leominster does a lot to teach people about Leominster's past, which I guess the city's changing a lot, it's really developing. Something like that. Right now, like I said, I'm totally consumed with work and being a single parent and not just having much time for anything, but as things get easier, my son gets older, I have more time, maybe I can be involved with the Center for Italian Culture. Actually, I love Italy. I've spent some time there and I've traveled back a couple of times. I do speak some Italian, but like I said, I've lost it over 28 the years, but I would love to get it back so that when I go to Italy and visit I can have a little… INTERVIEWER: To have a Center for Italian Culture? ROSE MARY: No, it's preserve history for the future generation. INTERVIEWER: Do you feel that way? MARYANNE: Yeah, I think so. I think it's good. I don't know a whole lot about what's being done, but I think it's good that people will have questions. The next generation, a terrible tragic thing that happened for the whole country. I think there's [unintelligible - 00:52:52] in the paper last night about dollars this anti-terrorism campaign is costing. I have a lot of customers in New York, and they were greatly affected. And everywhere, it touched everyone in the world, something like that happening. ROSE MARY: That thing, I feel, is very heartbreaking to imagine happening. It has changed, probably, my activities a little bit as far as going on vacation this year and getting on a plane. I don't feel it's a very good job of wiping out terrorism. We haven't done it yet completely. MARYANNE: It did make me think about family quite a bit more because I've passed on two opportunities to fly since then, and I weigh what to do, and one would be -- oh, and they were both for business -- but if it was just a decision about going on vacation somewhere, then I look at what my first job is, and it's to stay alive and raise my kids. The business, I'm going to do all that I can by phone and email and websites, and I'm going to avoid traveling until things are better. But then it can change at any time. They might change later, but I don't have a desire to getting in an airplane. ROSE MARY: Plus, actually, my oldest brother lives in New York City and when we first heard the news, of course we didn't know, and it was a while before we could get through on the phone because all of the 29 phone lines were jammed up to find out that he was actually traveling on business that day. MARYANNE: Actually, he traveled the day before, flew To California on the Monday. ROSE MARY: Right. He was nowhere around. He doesn't work in the building, but he does go by that train station, right? He gets off the train there every day. So I mean, the first initial reaction to hear that was, "Is he okay?" And the panic, you know, and then to find out that he's okay, but then to think about all the people that found out that their family members were gone, too. INTERVIEWER: How did you get the idea for the hair accessories? I realize the family owned the plastics business, so… MARYANNE: Well, I worked at Cardinal Comb & Brush, and they made combs, a couple of brushes, and they had some hair accessories. I did a lot of different things there, but I worked in sales and I created a hair accessory product that did quite well, and it sort of opened my eyes, because the hair accessory portion of Cardinal Comb was very small. And after that product did real well, I started thinking, "Oh, I should create other products," and this and that, but the products that I was creating were of a better quality, more upscale, and the combs that Cardinal were making were more -- good-quality but much lower in cost. It just was something -- I didn't think about having my own business, but it just kind of happened. My brother had said, "Oh, why don't you take a hair accessory business and do this and that," and it just worked out. So we talked about it, we figured out what to do and we made the deal. They continued to manufacture the plastic for me, and probably 1994 that the product got started, and at the time there was a product called Topsy-Tail, which was that you make a 30 ponytail and you put this little plastic needle with a loop. That just opened my eyes more. INTERVIEWER: So that wasn't your product… MARYANNE: That wasn't my product, no, but suddenly the whole marketplace was looking at hair accessories as something. So after the product I created did well in '94, we just started talking, and by '95 we had decided to split that portion of the business, and that's when the hair things got started in January of '96. It was called the French Twist kit, and what it did was it combined some really handmade side combs with hairpins in one package, and then on the back gave very detailed instructions and illustrations of how to put your hair into a French Twist. That's really the product that sold in many different markets, and from that I said, "Oh wow. You should keep doing more." INTERVIEWER: About the products, called, are they Good Hair Days? MARYANNE: The name Good Hair Days is on all the packaging, and there's another brand called Grip-Tuth, which are these handmade combs I'm talking about. So there's always Good Hair Days on the card, but in some products there's Grip-Tuth as well. Some of the products are sold without the name; they're just plastic parts that are sold in the bridal industry or the craft industry by the designers. They're taking the combs and putting them… INTERVIEWER: Right now, who owns the company? MARYANNE: Well, I'm the President of the company. I do the sales and marketing of our new products. Whatever it takes. Production -- my husband now is doing production, shipping, all the day-to-day paperwork you know. Payables, receivables. And we have someone who works part-time for us. I know, we have a running joke. It's like, "So, good morning! How was your weekend?" But we get along. We're probably -- few. We get along, we laugh with each other. 31 We actually value the time with our kids. I was lucky I was able to bring my daughter into the office and take care of her, and she didn't start daycare until she was 15 months. I would take care of her, work the phones. I had a playpen set up in the office. She'd fall asleep, take a nap, I'd run out and do shipping or whatever needed doing. So that's very fortunate; may people have to put their kids in daycare. I kind of set up home, also, to work, so I was able to put time in the office and time at home. Technology today is great because you get messages, you get paged; you can take care of business on your own hours and in between diaper changes. INTERVIEWER: You both live in Leominster? ROSE MARY: I live on the other side, right neat Lancaster. MARYANNE: I live probably, like, a mile, two miles, a mile and a half or so down this way. I think what I've gotten from him, if that answers the question, is they both have a very strong work ethic. What I remember about my dad is that he was always leaving, going to work on Saturday mornings. It was like a, "Where are you going?" kind of thing, and just doing what it takes. And Mom would do everything it took in the house so they wouldn't need to do anything, and they worked and take care of -- hardworking, and that would be one thing I want to carry on. ROSE MARY: Both had a lot of integrity. Honesty, integrity. MARYANNE: And work integrity. Honesty. That sort of thing. INTERVIEWER: Tell me about… MARYANNE: I couldn't even think of what you asked to begin with. INTERVIEWER: Well, thank you very much. ROSE MARY: Okay, you're more than welcome. INTERVIEWER: It's hard to do./AT/pa/cs/mfb/es
Tradicionalmente solo las grandes empresas se han vinculado a las Bolsas de Valores para la negociación de sus acciones y demás títulos valores emitidos por ellas. Por consiguiente los requisitos para las cotizaciones y, en general, para las transacciones se han fijado según sus características. Sin embargo, existe una nueva realidad económica que impone la necesidad de abrirle espacio a las micro, pequeñas y medianas empresas (MIPYMES) en el mercado bursátil. Esta realidad esta compuesta por los siguientes hechos: • Este tamaño de empresas ha tomado una gran importancia en la estructura productiva del país. • Las pequeñas y medianas empresas industriales tienen gran potencial exportador. Tienen importantes requerimientos financieros que no se pueden satisfacer exclusivamente en el sistema bancario, ya sea por los costos, por los plazos o por los montos ofrecidos. • Poco a poco se rompe la resistencia al cambio así como al temor de los pequeños y medianos empresarios a dar a conocer su información con la sospecha de darles gabelas a la competencia. • El favorable tratamiento a las acciones. En estas condiciones, la Superintendencia de Valores ha planteado la conformación de un mercado paralelo al tradicional (o primer mercado) que se denomina "Segundo mercado" o "Mercado Balcón", al cual pueden acceder los títulos valores de micro, pequeñas y medianas empresas (MIPYMES) para inducirlas a una ampliación de la oferta de títulos, en beneficio del ahorro y la inversión. Las micro, pequeñas y medianas empresas (MIPYMES), son aquellas que se definen a partir del tamaño de su planta de personal y del tamaño de sus activos ( medidos en salarios mínimos vigentes S.M.L.V ), según la ley MIPYME ( LEY 590 de Julio 10 de 2000. Las MIPYMES representan el 96 % de las empresas existentes en el país, éstas contribuyen con el 63 % del empleo nacional, con el 25 % del PIB, con el 25 % de las exportaciones totales y con el 50 % de los salarios generados de la nación. Los problemas que en general enfrentan las MIPYMES son los siguientes: Acceso limitado al financiamiento y en condiciones desfavorables, deficiencias de administración de sus unidades productivas, complicados procesos de legalización y falta de liderazgo gremial, se presentan disgregados, lo cual ocasiona desinformación de las medidas del gobierno. Con la presente investigación y teniendo en cuenta el marco conceptual anterior, se trata de responder a las preguntas siguientes: 1- ¿ Cómo facilitar a las micro, pequeñas y medianas empresas (MIPYMES) el acceso al capital en condiciones favorables de manera que les permita desarrollar sus proyectos ? 2- ¿ Es el Mercado Balcón, el medio efectivo que ofrece el Mercado Público de Valores, como alternativa de financiamiento para las MIPYMES en Colombia ? 3- ¿ La actual legislación sobre la promoción y participación de las MIPYMES en el mercado de capitales del país, ofrece garantías de participación y desarrollo en ese mercado ? ; Instituto Tecnológico y de Estudios Superiores de Monterrey (ITESM); Corporación Universitaria Autónoma de Occidente ; INTRODUCCIÓN 19 1. MARCO DE REFERENCIA 23 1.1 ANTECEDENTES 23 1.2 DESCRIPCIÓN DEL PROBLEMA 25 1.3 FORMULACIÓN DEL PROBLEMA 26 1.4 JUSTIFICACIÓN DEL PROYECTO 26 1.5 OBJETIVOS DE LA INVESTIGACIÓN 26 1.5.1 Objetivo general 26 1.5.2 Objetivos específicos 27 1.6 MARCO METODOLÓGICO 27 1.6.1 Fuentes de información 27 1.7 MARCO CONCEPTUAL 27 1.7.1 El mercado público de valores 27 1.7.1.1 Ventajas que ofrece el mercado público de 27 valores. 28 1.7.1.2 Definición de inversión 29 1.7.1.2.1 Rentabilidad de la inversión 30 1.7.1.3 Superintendencia de valores 31 1.7.1.4 Registro nacional de valores e intermediarios 32 de la superintendencia de valores. 32 1.7.1.5 Títulos valores 33 1.7.1.5.1 Circulación de los títulos valores. 34 1.7.1.5.2 Clases de endosos 34 1.7.1.5.3 Títulos valores en los cuales se puede invertir 34 1.7.1.5.3.1 Acciones 36 1.7.1.5.3.1.1 Tipos de acciones 37 1.7.1.5.3.1.2 Características de la acción 38 1.7.1.5.3.1.3 Función económica de la acción 38 1.7.1.5.3.1.4 Ventajas que otorga la acción 39 1.7.1.5.4 Bonos y papeles comerciales 39 1.7.1.5.5 Sociedades y tipos de títulos que puede emitir 40 1.7.1.5.6 Pagos a seguir para emitir valores 40 1.7.1.5.7 Exigencias de la superintendencia de valores 40 para autorizar una oferta 40 1.7.1.5.8 Otras opciones de emisión de títulos valores los 41 inversionistas. 42 1.7.1.5.8.1 Inscripción anticipada 42 1.7.1.5.8.2 Segundo mercado 42 1.7.1.5.9 Requisitos especiales que las empresas 44 inversionistas deben cumplir para emitir títulos valores. 44 1.7.1.5.10 Inversionistas institucionales 46 46 1.7.1.5.10.1 Sociedades fiduciarias 46 1.7.1.5.10.2 Operaciones permitidas 47 1.7.1.5.10.3 Operaciones prohibidas 48 1.7.1.5.10.4 Operaciones prohibidas con los recursos del fondo común ordinario. 48 1.7.1.5.10.5 Posibles inversiones 1.7.1.5.10.6 Con recursos propios 1.7.1.5.10.7 Con recursos del fideicomiso 1.7.1.5.10.8 Con recursos del fondo común 1.7.1.5.10.9 De que pueden ser dueños 1.7.1.5.10.10 Posibles inversiones 49 1.7.1.5.10.11 Sociedades administradoras de fondos de pensiones y de cesantías 49 1.7.1.5.10.11.1 Operaciones permitidas 49 1.7.1.5.10.11.2 Operaciones prohibidas 50 1.7.1.5.10.11.3 Posibles inversiones 1.7.1.5.10.11.4 De que pueden ser dueños 1.7.1.5.10.12 Fondos mutuos de inversión 1.7.1.5.10.12.1 Características 1.7.1.5.10.12.2 Objetivos socio – económicos 51 1.7.1.6 Bolsas de valores 51 1.7.1.6.1 Orígenes de las bolsas de valores 52 1.7.1.6.2 Funcionamiento de la bolsa de valores 53 1.7.1.6.3 Características de las bolsas de valores 54 1.7.1.6.4 Funciones de la bolsa 55 1.7.1.6.5 Importancia de las bolsas en el desarrollo económico del país 55 1.7.1.6.6 Inicio de las bolsas de valores en Colombia 1.7.1.6.6.1 ¿Qué razones motivaron la integración de las bolsas de valores de Bogotá, Medellín y Occidente? 1.7.1.6.6.2 ¿Qué beneficios traerá la integración para Colombia, el mercado bursátil, los emisores y los inversionistas? 55 1.7.1.6.6.3 ¿Para qué sirve? 56 1.7.1.7 Compra y venta de títulos valores 56 1.7.1.8 Indicadores bursátiles 57 1.7.1.9 Indicadores para el mercado de renta fija 59 1.7.1.10 Indicadores económicos más utilizados 59 1.7.1.11 Escala de calificación de valores 59 1.7.1.11.1 Escala de certificación para títulos a largo y corto plazo. 60 1.7.2 Matriz para la formulación de estrategia. 62 1.8 MARCO TEÓRICO 64 1.8.1 Teoría Q de la inversión 65 1.8.2 Aspectos generales de la teoría de la valuación de las acciones. 65 1.8.2.1 Valuación de acciones comunes 65 1.8.2.1.1 Crecimiento nulo de los dividendos 67 1.8.2.1.2 Crecimiento constante de los dividendos 68 1.8.2.1.3 Valuación de las acciones con base en el valor futuro de la acción 68 1.8.3 Otras teorías generales sobre costo de emisión y el costo de capital. La estructura óptima de capital 70 1.9 MARCO JURÍDICO 71 1.9.1 Código de comercio 72 1.9.2 Decreto 400 de mayo 22 de 1995 73 1.9.3 Decreto 1200 de diciembre de 1995 75 1.9.4 Ley 590 de 2000 76 2. EXPERIENCIA DE SEGUNDOS MERCADOS EN EL MUNDO 78 2.1 FRANCIA 79 2.2 ESPAÑA 79 2.3 INGLATERRA 79 2.4 VENEZUELA 79 2.4.1 Importancia de la PYMI en el desarrollo económico y social 82 2.4.2 Componentes esenciales para incorporar las PYME al mercado de capitales 82 2.5 COSTA RICA 84 2.6 MÉXICO 85 2.6.1 Antecedentes 87 2.6.2 Definición 87 2.6.3 Propósito 88 2.6.4 Participantes 89 2.6.5 Requisitos de inscripción y mantenimiento 89 2.6.6 Procedimiento para la inscripción de acciones 90 2.6.7 Sistema de operación 90 2.6.8 Reglas básicas de operación 91 2.6.9 Suspensión de operaciones 91 2.6.10 Suspensión de registros 91 2.6.11 Índice de precios 92 2.6.11.1 Expresión matemática 92 2.6.12 Instituciones reguladoras 93 2.6.13 Marco jurídico y normativo 94 2.7 PORTUGAL 94 2.7.1 Requisitos para la emisión de títulos valores 94 2.7.2 Requisitos para la emisión de acciones 95 2.7.3 Requisitos para la emisión de bonos 95 3. CARACTERÍSTICAS PROPIAS DEL SEGUNDO MERCADO 96 3.1 GENERALIDADES 96 3.2 INVERSIONISTAS CALIFICADOS 96 3.3 TÍTULOS A NEGOCIAR 96 3.4 DOCUMENTOS REQUERIDOS PARA HACER PARTE DEL SEGUNDO MERCADO 97 3.5 EL PROSPECTO 98 3.6 PROCESO DE OFERTA PÚBLICA 101 3.6.1 Autorización de la oferta por parte de la superintendencia de valores. 101 3.6.2 Inicio del proceso promocional a través de comisionistas de bolsa, dirigido a potenciales inversionistas poniendo a disposición, información sobre la empresa emisora. 101 3.7 PROCESO DE OFERTA PRIVADA 102 3.8 PERIODICIDAD DE ENVIO DE INFORMACIÓN EN EL SEGUNDO MERCADO 103 3.9 CUADROS COMPARATIVOS ENTRE EL MERCADO PRINCIPAL Y EL SEGUNDO MERCADO 104 3.10 DERECHOS DE INSCRIPCIÓN Y LOS VALORES DE CUOTAS QUE DEBEN CANCELAR LOS EMISORES DEL SEGUNDO MERCADO. 104 3.10.1 Derechos de inscripción 104 3.10.2 Valor de las cuotas 104 3.10.2.1 Costos comparativos al emitir acciones y bonos 105 3.10.3 Periodo de liquidación 105 3.10.4 Derechos por reasignación de oferta pública 106 3.11 INTERMEDIARIOS FINANCIEROS 106 3.11.1 Sociedades comisionistas 107 3.11.1.1 Operaciones permitidas 108 3.11.1.2 Operaciones que pueden realizar por cuenta en el mercado primario. 108 3.11.1.3 Límites de estas operaciones 109 3.11.1.4 Operaciones que pueden realizar por cuenta en el mercado secundario 109 3.11.1.4.1 Segundo mercado 109 3.11.1.4.1.1 Inversionistas que participan 3.11.1.4.1.2 Títulos que pueden emitirse 109 3.11.1.4.2 Principios generales que se deben cumplir cuando se realizan estas operaciones 110 3.11.1.4.3 Límites que deben cumplir estas operaciones 110 3.11.1.5 Posibles inversiones 111 3.11.1.6 Inversiones prohibidas 111 3.11.2 Sociedades administradoras de inversión 112 3.11.2.1 Operaciones permitidas 112 3.11.2.2 Posibles inversiones 112 3.11.2.3 Límites de las administradoras de inversión 113 3.11.3 Sociedades fiduciarias 114 3.11.4 Banca de inversión 114 3.11.4.1 Actividades principales de la banca de inversión 115 4. EXPERIENCIA DEL SEGUNDO MERCADO EN SANTIAGO DE CALI 115 4.1 EXPERIENCIA DE LA BOLSA DE VALORES DE COLOMBIA 115 4.1.1 Motivos de la poca efectividad del segundo mercado en Santiago de Cali 115 4.1.1.1 Motivos Operativos 116 4.1.1.2 Motivos macroeconómicos 117 4.1.1.3 Motivos mesoeconómicos 117 4.1.1.4 Motivos macroeconómicos 119 4.1.1.5 Motivos del mercado 119 4.1.1.6 Motivos coyunturales Valle del Cauca 121 5. PLAN ESTRATÉGICO Y MERCADEO PARA LA REACTIVACIÓN DEL SEGUNDO MERCADO 121 5.1 CARACTERÍSTICAS GENERALES DEL ENTORNO DE LAS MIPYME EN SANTIAGO DE CALI 125 5.1.1 Entorno económico 126 5.1.1.1 Crecimiento económico 126 5.1.1.2 Comportamiento del sector industrial en el Valle del Cauca 127 5.1.1.3 Comportamiento del comercio en la ciudad de Cali, primer trimestre de 2000 128 5.1.1.4 Inversión neta de capitales en sociedades de Cali, enero – mayo de 2000 132 5.1.1.4.1 Índice de desempeño patrimonial de las sociedades de Cali 132 5.1.1.4.2 Concordatos 132 5.1.1.5 La inflación en Cali 133 5.1.1.6 Sector Externo 134 5.1.1.7 Política fiscal 135 5.1.2 Tamaño del mercado 140 5.1.3 Fuentes de financiación 141 5.1.3.1 Entidades (actores) públicas financieras 143 5.1.3.2 Entidades (actores) privadas financieras 143 5.1.3.3 Entidades (actores) públicas no financieras 149 5.1.3.4 Entidades (actores) privadas no financieras 151 5.1.3.5 La ley MIPYME y el entorno favorable a la creación 152 5.1.3.6 de nuevas empresas en Colombia. 160 5.1.3.7 Productividad 160 5.1.3.8 Tasas de Interés de colocación y captación 161 5.1.3.9 Entorno legal 161 5.1.4 Cultura bursátil 161 5.1.5 Entorno competitivo 161 5.1.5.1 Amenaza de nuevos entrantes 164 5.1.5.2 Poder del cliente 166 5.1.5.3 Amenazas de productos sustitutos 169 5.1.5.4 Poder de los proveedores 169 5.1.5.5 Rivalidad entre competidores 169 5.2 ANÁLISIS INTERNO 171 5.2.1 Definición de segundo mercado 171 5.2.2 Portafolio de servicios 173 5.2.3 Difusión 174 5.2.4 Dirección y manejo 174 5.2.5 Operación 174 5.2.6 Recursos 175 5.3 DIAGNÓSTICO 175 5.3.1 Oportunidades y amenazas 175 5.3.1.1 Amenazas 176 5.3.1.2 Oportunidades 176 5.3.1.3 Matriz de evaluación del factor externo (EFE) 176 5.3.2 Fortalezas y debilidades 177 5.3.2.1 Debilidades 177 5.3.2.2 Fortalezas 177 5.3.2.3 Matriz de evaluación del factor interno (EFI) 177 5.3.3 Matriz TOWN (DOFA) 177 5.4 PLAN ESTRATÉGICO Y DE MERCADO 178 5.4.1 Objetivo del plan estratégico y de mercado 179 5.4.1.1 Objetivo general 179 5.4.1.2 Objetivos específicos 179 5.4.2 Estrategias y programas 179 5.4.2.1 Disminución de costos 180 5.4.2.2 Fondo de garantías 182 5.4.2.3 Emisiones conjuntas 182 5.4.2.4 Vinculación de los inversionistas al segundo mercado. 182 5.4.2.4.1 Inversión del 1% de utilidades 182 5.4.2.4.2 Market makers 183 5.4.2.5 Captación de MYPIMES con apoyo de gremios y asociaciones. 183 5.4.2.5.1 Difusión y sensibilización de MIPYMES 184 5.4.2.5.2 Difusión y sensibilización a inversionistas institucionales 190 5.4.2.5.3 Capacitación y seguimiento a MIPYMES 196 5.4.3 Control 200 5.4.4 Cronograma de actividades 204 5.4.5 Caso práctico de apalancamiento (endeudamiento), con emisión de acciones o acudir a la consecución de pasivos. 207 CONCLUSIONES RECOMENDACIONES BIBLIOGRAFÍA ENTREVISTAS ANEXOS 208 ; Maestría ; Traditionally, only large companies have been linked to the Stock Exchanges to negotiate their shares and other securities issued by them. Consequently, the requirements for quotes and, in general, for transactions have been set according to their characteristics. However, there is a new economic reality that imposes the need to open space to micro, small and medium-sized enterprises (MIPYMES) in the stock market. This reality is composed of the following facts: • This size of companies has become very important in the country's productive structure. • Small and medium-sized industrial companies have great export potential. They have important financial requirements that cannot be satisfied exclusively in the banking system, either due to costs, terms or the amounts offered. • Little by little, the resistance to change is broken, as well as the fear of small and medium-sized entrepreneurs to disclose their information with the suspicion of giving away to the competition. • The favorable treatment of the shares. Under these conditions, the Superintendency of Securities has proposed the formation of a market parallel to the traditional (or first market) called "Second market" or "Balcón Market", which can be accessed by the securities of micro, small and medium-sized companies (MIPYMES) to induce them to expand the supply of securities, for the benefit of savings and investment. Micro, small and medium-sized enterprises (MIPYMES) are those that are defined based on the size of their staff and the size of their assets (measured in current minimum wages SMLV), according to the MIPYME law (LAW 590 of July 10 from 2000. MSMEs represent 96% of the existing companies in the country, they contribute 63% of national employment, 25% of GDP, 25% of total exports and 50% of wages generated from the nation. The problems faced by MSMEs in general are the following: Limited access to financing and under unfavorable conditions, deficiencies in the administration of their production units, complicated legalization processes and lack of union leadership, are disaggregated, which causes misinformation of the measures of the government. With the present investigation and taking into account the previous conceptual framework, the aim is to answer the following questions: 1- How to facilitate access to capital under favorable conditions for micro, small and medium-sized enterprises (MSMEs) so that they can develop their projects? 2- Is the Balcón Market, the effective means offered by the Public Securities Market, as a financing alternative for MIPYMES in Colombia? 3- Does the current legislation on the promotion and participation of MSMEs in the country's capital market offer guarantees of participation and development in that market?
Part one of an interview with Julia Casey. Topics include: Julia's service as a clerk stenographer in the Civil Service Commission. Family history. Her parents came from Italy; her father was from Crenna and her mother was from Milan. The arranged marriage between her parents and their immigration to the United States. Her grandfather's work at a gas company in Italy. Her relatives worked in an embroidery business in Massachusetts. What it was like for Julia to grow up in Boston. Speaking proper Italian. What their neighborhood in Boston was like. The social club nearby. The foods people cooked and ate. The Christmas traditions of her family. How to prepare and serve polenta. Celebrations for patron saints. ; 1 LINDA: Okay. JULIA: All right. LINDA: So why don't I just start by saying this is Linda Rosenlund with the Center for Italian Culture at Fitchburg State College. It's Wednesday, November 16th, 2002. We're at the home of Julia Casey at 700 Pearl Street in Fitchburg. And Julia is just filling out the biographical information sheet, but I decided to turn the recorder on because she has some interesting anecdotes while she is writing. So she was just about to fill out the work history portion, and she began telling me that she worked for the War Department Chemical Warfare Services in Washington, DC, and you started 10 days after Pearl Harbor. JULIA: Yes. I had -- after high school, I had gone—and it's not noted here—to the stenotype school in Boston. And in the course of learning, they sent us to take a Civil Service Examination since [stenotypee] is a type, is machine shorthand. And in October, I took the [unintelligible - 00:01:13] Civil Service Examination in Boston, and then when the war broke out, I received a telegram to report to Washington by the 17th of December. And so 10 days after Pearl Harbor, I found myself at the War Department for assignment in the Civil Service Commission and the War Department. They sent me there, and then they assigned me to the Chemical Warfare Service as a clerk stenographer. LINDA: Does that mean it wasn't a choice? JULIA: No. No. There was no choice. They assigned you -- thousands of girls were pouring in from all over the country to, to man the increased offices for the War Department. The war was on, and every department in the government needed extra help, and so they took Civil Service Exams all over the country and the girls that were registered were sent telegrams to come in, and then they sent you wherever they needed you. So I worked there until I think October of 1944, and then I was transferred back to the Boston Procurement Office for the Chemical Warfare Service. LINDA: -kinds of things did you learn? 2 JULIA: It was straight stenographic work—filing, clerical, and stenographic work. I worked for a number of different people who dictated letters, and we typed them up and did general office work. LINDA: Were you ever learning anything interesting? JULIA: No. No, except the names of the various gases that they were using at the time, which was still pretty much what they had from World War I—mustard gas and things like that I haven't thought about it in years—but they had arsenals of gases all over the country. And so the correspondence mainly had to do with shipments and [unintelligible - 00:03:30] get into any of the research part at all. Men from major chemical corporations around the country came in to handle the government's program. Beyond that, we have no way of knowing. Things were either stamped secret or confidential. But the correspondence was so voluminous that things that came in, the regulations from the government had to all be filed and none of us did that and read anything like that. It was secret confidential, general -- you just filed it or you did whatever clerical work was assigned. LINDA: Obviously, war is such an uneasy time anyway. It must have been… JULIA: It was very exciting because we were young, and I eventually lived with four roommates in an apartment, and we worked almost six days a week. And because of the wartime, you didn't have as many things open to you. You couldn't visit the White House. For a long time, I never even got to see the Houses of Congress. We lived a very good life. We took care of our apartment. Each of the girls that I lived with, with whom I'm still closed friends, came from the different parts of the country except one who came from my own neighborhood. She lived with us. I lived with the girl from [unintelligible - 00:05:10], Missouri and a girl from Sunnyvale, California, and a girl that had come from Minneapolis, Minnesota, and we kept house, we shopped, we did laundry and we wanted to work in a 3 different agency and went to work with public transportation. We lived in Washington, and then we lived in Arlington, Virginia in an apartment. And we all came back to Boston together. We all arranged for transfers to various agencies in Boston. LINDA: Were you ever questioned about your Italian background? JULIA: No. I never was questioned. The questioning had to do with various organizations that you might have belonged to where they found your name. I mean, I was 18 years old when I left, so… And then I continued my Federal Civil Service until about seven months after I was married. LINDA: And that was in 1951? JULIA: 1950, yes. In April, I think I left my job, and I didn't work just for Chemical Warfare Service because after the war, they had what they call Reduction in Force, RIF. In other words, all the people that had been hired for the war were then let go, but you could go to other agencies that were getting rid of all of the stuff that the government had bought during the war, and one of the agencies I went to was the War Assets Administration in Boston. I forgot the name of the original name of the agency. They are in charge of reselling all of the machine tools that had been bought for the war plants, and New England was a very heavy industrial area for machine tools and machine and all kinds of things. So I went to work for the War Assets Administration, and then I think I put in sometime with one of the Air Force for terminal agencies here at the army base in Boston. And I was pregnant almost immediately after I was married, so I left in April of 1952. My first child was born in June of '52. LINDA: Are you okay? JULIA: Excuse me. I have a dry cough. LINDA: Okay. JULIA: [Unintelligible - 00:08:17] administration. LINDA: Okay. JULIA: I'll put CWS. That's the Chemical Warfare Service. LINDA: Okay.4 JULIA: And then War Assets Administration… and the Air Force. I still have all my papers, so I can check if we have to. And then I left in April. Our church, Catholic. That's all you want, isn't it? Or do you want… LINDA: Well, why don't you tell me where you go now? JULIA: All right. LINDA: -instead of Boston. JULIA: Okay, St. Camillus. LINDA: Okay. You have lived in Fitchburg since '68? JULIA: Yes. I've lived in Fitchburg since -- we moved here because my husband obtained the position of Director of the Library at Fitchburg State College in 1967, and he commuted about a year, and it was too much for him to commute to Boston. So, we had to sell -- we decided to sell our home, and we've lived here since March of 1968. LINDA: Okay. JULIA: Okay. Social clubs, wow. All right, I was a member, and still am, actually, of the League of Women Voters. LINDA: Okay. JULIA: Boston and Fitchburg. [Unintelligible - 00:10:07] Garden Club, where I was president for about four years. It's 1963, 1993, the June of [unintelligible - 00:10:30] Club. LINDA: I'm not familiar with that. JULIA: It's a Catholic layman's organization. I was actually the first woman admitted in the Fitchburg area. Would you mind opening the door? Letting the dog… LINDA: Oh okay. The dog is going to be [unintelligible - 00:10:48] with me now? JULIA: It's cold. She might just -- come on, sweetheart. Come, darling. Come on, Sasha. What a good [unintelligible - 00:10:59]. What a lovely dog! That would be on the tape. LINDA: That's okay. JULIA: All right. Let me…5 LINDA: What's that? JULIA: It's very cold in here because I turned down the heat, and the stove is not on. Let me just turn the heat up. Okay. Hold on. LINDA: Okay. What's the… JULIA: [Unintelligible - 00:11:24]. Ooh, my kids are [unintelligible - 00:11:29]. LINDA: Say what? JULIA: My [unintelligible - 00:11:33]. LINDA: Oh, who cares about things like that? Thanks for showing me all of the photographs. Julia just showed me the photographs that had been in her family since your mother passed away, I guess. What year was that? JULIA: My mother died in 1989 in Windsor, Vermont, because my sister owns a nursing home there and my mother went to live with her. But my mother lived alone on 11 and 13th Pompeii Street in Roxbury until she was 89 years old. My father had bought a six-family house on Pompeii Street, which originally was Lansdowne Street, and she lived in that house until she was 89 years old. Then she came to live with me for a year, and my sister took her up with her right after my son Steven's funeral in August of 1985. I treasure the artifacts, the furniture, and the pictures that I have. I have a whole collection of photographs from Italy which I'm hoping to organize before I die and so that the descendants will have some idea of who they came from. LINDA: Well, tell me a little bit about your parents. Were they born…? JULIA: My father was born in Crenna, Gallarate, C-R-E-N-N-A. It's a small town or village, and it's right above the city of Gallarate, G-A-L-L-A-R-A-T-E, which is a part of the Malpensa Airport in Milan. LINDA: Okay. JULIA: They are Lombards. My mother was born -- Lombardi is the province. My mother was born in Milan on December 5th, 1893. My father was born in Crenna, Gallarate on January 30th, 1891. And the family had lived there for a number of generations, and there are records in the church in Crenna. 6 LINDA: And their last names? Your father's last name is… JULIA: [Tomasine]. LINDA: Tomasine. JULIA: Yeah. LINDA: Mother's? JULIA: Seminario, and it was an arranged marriage. LINDA: So tell me a little bit about that. Did your mother tell you that was an arranged marriage, or…? JULIA: Most Italian women had to have the approval of their families before they married. It's a little complicated. When my father was an infant, a young girl baby was… I do not know the circumstances. She was assigned, she was asked -- no, that's wrong. She was given to my grandmother in Crenna, who was at the time nursing my papa. In other words, she was a nursing mother. And oftentimes when babies were either abandoned or the mother died or was too ill to take care of them, they were given to a nursing mother, who brought that child up along with the child she was nursing. In other words, she became a wet nurse. And if she had sufficient milk—since there were no formulas or bottles at the time—then she nursed both children. And this little girl, whose name was Carolina, she was brought up with my father until she was 18 years old. And then she was given her freedom, her choice to do whatever she wished, and at that time of course, girls, they went to work or they married. And she went to Milan to work, and she met one of my mother's uncles and married him, and as a result of this marriage, the two families were connected, not by blood, but because this girl had been raised with my father. And they have a child of their own, a little girl. And when the little girl was 9 years old, when [unintelligible - 00:17:15] was 9 years old, Carolina, her mother, died. And at the funeral, 7 which was during World War I, my mother went and my father went, because they were from the two families. My father went because she was called his sister of the milk, [foreign language - 00:17:45] de latte. That means that his mother nursed the two of them together, [unintelligible - 00:17:52] de latte. It was quite common, if there was no other way for these little babies to survive. Many women didn't have enough milk to feed their children, and my mother told me that in Milan, there were professionals wet nurses, and they used to come into the city on trams from the surrounding villages, and they wore special headdresses so they were recognized as women who were going to nurse babies in private homes. And this was their profession as long as they could. They would go to the home of somebody who could afford it and nurse a child whose mother is not able to feed a child, and they were honored. They were very respected women, recognized. They used to come in on the trolley cars into the city. And so I thought that was a very interesting thing. I have never heard of it myself. But I know I had another aunt on my father's side who went to South America and who could not nurse her first child and took her to a wet nurse in the country to nurse, to be fed. So it was not an uncommon situation at all. LINDA: So now your parents got connected at the… JULIA: They're only connected -- it's not a blood relationship. LINDA: Right. JULIA: It was marriage. And… LINDA: So you were telling me that it was arranged. JULIA: Yes. When my father came, my father came to America in 1912 with two brothers, two brothers were here, but America was a very tough place to be if you didn't speak English, and he didn't have any high skills. My father was trained as an embroiderer, because that was his father's cottage 8 industry in my [unintelligible - 00:20:23] in Crenna. But he couldn't get that kind of work in America, and so he did heavy laboring, washed dishes and did anything he could. And being the oldest son, when the family in Italy needed him, he went back, but he went back unfortunately in 1914. I think he told me that he went back in April, and in August the war broke out. And his youngest brothers were taught in the Italian army, and his two brothers in America joined the American army. So there were two brothers in the Italian army in the infantry and two boys who had a wonderful time in the American army and never was sent overseas. So when his sister of the milk died, then he met my mother at that funeral, but right after the war's conditions in Italy were very bad, he came back to America in 1919. And he felt that he was then about 26, 27 years old, and he felt that it was time to settle down, and he wrote to his mother. And his mother arranged with my mother's father and asked my mother if she would like to go to America to marry her son. And my mother agreed even though she didn't know him and had only met him at that one time, and so she came to America. LINDA: Did she come by herself? JULIA: No. Italian women did not come by themselves, unlike the Irish, who did. She came with -- by this time, the two boys, Vincent and Peter Tomasine, who were in the United States, decided that they wanted their mother to come. My grandparents were separated at that time, and so they made arrangements. One son Vincent had a girlfriend in Italy that he had more or less grown up with, and he sent for her. And then my uncle Peter and -- let's see, my grandmother came. They sent for their mother and Maria [unintelligible - 00:23:12], who married Vincent, and then my grandmother brought her youngest daughter, Mary, who was not married, and she brought her son-in-law, Angelo [unintelligible - 00:23:25], who 9 was married to my father's sister and had gone back to Italy from South America during the war. And after the war, he wanted to come to America. But the men always came first. So he came with his mother-in-law, who was my grandmother. LINDA: So your father returned in 1919. How long did he take him to save enough money to send for these? JULIA: Well, he worked very hard and the passage was very cheap, and so he sent money for them and sponsored my mother. And when she came here, they were married. There wasn't any big ceremony or anything like that. They lived with his mother and Maria [unintelligible - 00:24:24], who then married my uncle Vincent, and my father's youngest sister, Mary, Maria, and his brother-in-law until they all got settled. They lived in Roxbury in a flat. And then… LINDA: And what year was this that your mother came over JULIA: It was 1920 and '21, 1921. She arrived on October 12th in New York the same day, because she always said she came the same time as Christopher Columbus, on October 12th, 1921. By the way, I have a tape here that I -- of a family history that I wrote up in 1981, and we played it at Christmastime. And the whole story is on this tape. LINDA: Oh, interesting. JULIA: As far as I can remember—and I don't vouch for extreme accuracy in anything, because by that time, my mother was pretty well along in years in the late '70s. And she was 80. My mother and I, I went to Italy for the first time when I was 50 years old in August -- September of 1973. I went back with my mother, and I was in time to meet her brother, Raymundo Clemente, her brother, Umberto. His name was Umberto Seminario, the father of the boy who was lost in the Second World War, and his wife Osana, and my mother's half sister, Anna. And I say half sister because my mother's mother died at the age of 25 from consumption, when my mother was only four years old and her brother was two. And my grandfather, Raymundo Seminario had to remarry. He married within six 10 months so that he could keep his two children. Then there were two girls born of that marriage. LINDA: Did you mention the name Clemente? JULIA: Clemente was my grandfather, Raymundo Clemente Juliano Seminario. LINDA: Okay. JULIA: Yeah, three names. And sometimes they call him Clemente. Sometimes they call him Raymundo. But I was named for him, and my brother was named for him. LINDA: Well, that brings up an interesting point. I see that your name is spelled J-U-L-I-A, and Italian… JULIA: They Americanized it. LINDA: … didn't have J. JULIA: Yes. They don't have a J. LINDA: So when did that happen? JULIA: Probably when the birth certificate was sent into city hall. I was born at home, and the doctors who came in attendance didn't speak any Italian, and so they just put down what they heard phonetically. My brother and sister, all of us were born at home. So the records at city hall were just deplorable. They're awful. Then, of course, when we were baptized, then the names were different even on those baptismal records, which I have, because then we were baptized in the Italian churches in Boston. LINDA: So let me get back to the birth certificate. It's been my experience where the birth certificate actually has the Italian name, but it's later in school. Not yours? JULIA: No. I'd have to look it up, and you know, I'd have to look it up. But I think that the birth certificate -- it might be. LINDA: Well, it's just interesting that you [unintelligible - 00:28:52] change. JULIA: I also have my mother's, her brother's, and their half sister's report cards from their Italian elementary school in Milan, Italy, all signed by their father, my grandfather. I have it right around the corner. They're in the back.11 LINDA: Very interesting. JULIA: I went to visit the schools that they attended when I went to Milan. LINDA: So now your experience seems very different from many of the Italian Americans that I have, and their family is situated [unintelligible - 00:29:33] north. JULIA: Yes. Yes. Most of the Italian immigrants were from the central and southern part of Italy. From the north, the population there was more educated, and there was more industry, so jobs were plentiful unless, like in my grandfather's case, you had an industry where he was an embroiderer at many areas that have cottage industries. He worked out of his own home, and he was not a particularly good business man. So when the wars came along and he lost a lot of money, building an apartment house, so the boys decided that they would all come to America. LINDA: But they actually left the first time before the war. JULIA: Yes. Three of them came before the war, and my father was the only one that went back because he was the oldest son, and he must received word that things were not going well at home. And so he went back to help out for a time, but then after the -- he had to go into combat. Then when he came back after the war, things were not much better, and he joined his brothers in America again. LINDA: What did your mother's people do for…? JULIA: My grandfather started at the age of eight carrying bricks. He came from a large family in [unintelligible - 00:31:20], which is in Lombardi. It's the same town where Mother Cabrini was born. She was a modern Italian saint. And because child labor was very common, he went to school to learn to read and write, but then he got a job carrying bricks to build the gas company, and I just recently found out that the gas company in Milan was built by a French firm. 12 And so after the building was built, he got a job in the company. I don't know what he was doing, but he probably started out by shoveling coal or whatever. They made gas out of burning coal. And eventually, he worked his way up in the company until at the age of 54, he was in charge of sending out the gas to the entire city of Milan. They had huge gasometers in which they stored the prepared gas, and it's very strange because when my mother and father bought their house in Roxbury right across Massachusetts Avenue, which was the main street outside—their street connected to Massachusetts Avenue—there was a huge gasometer meter that was owned by the Boston Gas Company. And so all of my early life, I saw the same huge gasometer that my grandfather was a part of in Milan. LINDA: Interesting. JULIA: Right. It's gone now, as they put in the southeast expressway. They took it away, and they have different -- now they bring the gas in by pipeline, so they don't store it. LINDA: Did you ever have any discussions with your parents about the fact that it was an arranged marriage, or was it just so common then? JULIA: It was very common. You married people that you were introduced to, or there wasn't any of this thing of going out on dates. The expression in Northern Italy for a couple who were interested in each other was [foreign language - 00:34:04], meaning they speak to each other. That was the expression. They stayed in groups. They're amongst the families, and a gentleman, once a young man was interested in a girl, his only access was through her family. LINDA: Now, what brought your father to Boston? JULIA: Because his brothers were here and he figured he could -- he was very, very nervous. After the war, he came back in a very light post -- what do they call it? LINDA: Post-traumatic syndrome? JULIA: Post-traumatic… LINDA: Syndrome, I think.13 JULIA: They didn't call it that at the time, but he couldn't stay at home. And so, he came here and he did mostly have [unintelligible - 00:35:04] for the rest of his life. LINDA: But initially, when he came in 1912 with his brothers, what brought them to Boston? JULIA: Because they -- the Italians had started coming to America around 1890, 1888-1890, and the word got back that you could earn a living, and his brothers happened to be there. They had an aunt, their father's sister, Luisa Milani, came around 1880 or 1890, and she was married to a man who was a stonecutter, and of course, marble and granite. They have quarries in Massachusetts and Vermont, and her husband was a stonecutter. In fact, he died of silicosis. And these men were skilled laborers, and they worked in -- where they made cemetery monuments and they carved, they quarried stone for buildings. So their aunt was here, and they have to have someone to sponsor them. So my first two uncles came under her sponsorship, and so did my father under her sponsorship. Then a younger brother came around 1928. He had remained in Italy after the war. He was the youngest, and he came later than they did. And he became an automobile mechanic, a very skilled one. So that's right. And then my father, he bought these two houses for $1,700 apiece, and his brother Vincent gave him a down payment to put down so he could get settled. They bought homes almost immediately after they arrived. LINDA: Is this on Lansdowne, which later became Pompeii Street? JULIA: Yes. Well, my father did, and then his two brothers bought homes in other places. And his brother Vincent started up the same family embroidery business that he was -- that was his trade the rest of his life. He had a factory in [unintelligible - 00:37:36] where he did a great deal of 14 [wobbler], the embroidered patches that they used to distinguish outfits and military units and all types of things like that. LINDA: What's the name of that company? Do you know? JULIA: It was Vincent Tomasine Embroideries. And in fact later, after the war, long after the war, he sold it to someone else. LINDA: I'm wondering why your father didn't… JULIA: He couldn't stand it. After the way, he couldn't stand indoor work. He just couldn't. He was too nervous, and the business of course was run very differently from what his father had run in Italy, a one-man shop, whereas my uncle, all of my aunts went to work for my uncle, and they would get contracts. Say, women will embroidered slips and embroidered underwear, and the manufacturers in Boston that were making rayon, nylons, shorts would send -- they would stitch up the fronts of the slips, then they would send them by the box-loads to my uncle, who would put them on frames and do the embroideries on the front, then they went back to the factories to be re-stitched, to be stitched and completed. So he did all the embroidery, work whether it was blouses, whether it was slips, whether it was anything else that had to be done. As I said, during the war, it was military patches. LINDA: Now, about your mantle, you have a beautiful piece of embroidery. Who did that? JULIA: My mother. Because her mother had died so young from consumption, my grandfather refused to allow his daughters to work in large factories, in a factory. He didn't want them to do factory work. And so at that time, clothing was made almost custom. They didn't have huge factories that churned them all by the thousands, and fine clothing for girl who was going to be married, her [foreign language - 00:40:00] was made out of fine cloth and linen. And there were many, many -- again, it's a type of cottage industry, but small shops that were girls that were hired for this skill in stitching and 15 attaching tucking, attaching waist, and my mother worked in a place where they made shirts, and all kinds of skilled work was done by hand on single machines. And then every year for the month, they were allowed to vacation. My grandfather took them to the mountains, and that's still customary today. Every summer, most of the Italians go off to the mountains of the seashore for vacation. They believe in that. Most of them can afford to do that. If they can't, then they go away for a week or two. LINDA: So let's talk more about Boston. What was it like living on Lansdowne Street? JULIA: We loved it. It was a good street, and the same people that lived there when I was a child, the girls that grew up with me, other than one or two who have died, are still my friends. I still maintain contact even though they might have been a year or two younger or older, that contact with those families have never really been broken. There were about 60 families on two streets in a very -- they were part of [war day], but they were off of Massachusetts Avenue near the south end of Boston, although it was officially Roxbury. And all of the landlords on those two streets were Italian, and they came from all parts of Italy from the Piedmont to Lombardi down to Abruzzo down to the southern part all the way to Sicily. LINDA: Yeah. JULIA: So I grew up learning many dialects, hearing many dialects, and my mother kept in touch. She wrote letters to her family and friends in Italy and relatives until she couldn't see anymore 65 years later. So I would see my mother sitting there late at night, midnight, writing to Italy, and then the letters would come back and… LINDA: Did she save those?16 JULIA: No. I did it. She didn't. I saved quite a few. I have quite a lot, and as a matter of fact, one of my mother's girlfriends, [unintelligible - 00:43:10], I think, married a man named [unintelligible - 00:43:18], and her descendants lived in a part of Milan, and our children, which would represent the fourth generation, this lady's grandfather worked with my grandfather at the Milan Gasworks. And my mother kept in touch all those years with his daughter, with her friend, because they were neighbors. LINDA: Let me just slide you hand through here. Okay. JULIA: And my daughters and my sister's daughters had gone to Italy after college and met them and stayed with them. So there were four generations whose friendship has stood the test of time. LINDA: That's remarkable. JULIA: They came to visit two years ago, and I've been there to visit twice with my mother. LINDA: So what was it like when you went back? JULIA: It was like déjà vu. I knew everyone that my mother introduced me to. I'm very fluent in the dialect, which is very seldom spoken now anymore, because after Mussolini came in, one of the ways that he tried to unify the country of Italy was to insist that they all speak proper Italian, whereas everyone who came to America during the '20s and before spoke the dialect of their own region, or their own village. In fact, many people on Pompeii Street could not understand my parents. No one could if they spoke in the Lombard dialect, because it was so different. LINDA: How did they communicate? JULIA: Because they did have a common -- they could speak in proper Italian. Many of them had gone to school. And I mean, they could -- if they went to school in Italy, then they could read Italian, but there was a common thread. It was very difficult though, because they usually never spoke in proper Italian. But the southern Italian spoke closer to the proper language.17 LINDA: The southern? JULIA: Yeah. The southern and central ones, they spoke in a manner that was a little bit closer, closer to proper Italian. And my mother wrote in proper Italian, and most of them have had elementary school educations so that they could communicate with their families in Italy. LINDA: Did your parents learn English? JULIA: Yes, they did. My father could read the American paper. They listened to the news on the radio, and of course, we grew up and went to school in America. And my mother was forced. It was very, very difficult adjustment because she frequently misunderstood what I said in English, and it made for a great deal of friction until enough years went by that my youngest sister came along 13 years after I did. By that time, my sister came to understand the Italian because in the family, my mother and father still spoke in dialect and all of my aunts and uncles, the same dialect. So we got it through hearing it. It wasn't until I went back to Italy the first time in 1973 that we went back for three or four weeks, and it was the first time that I had what you call an immersion, where everybody spoke proper Italian and I suddenly understood. Like a person who plays the piano by ear, I understood the Italian. And then, when I went back in '76 with my mother and sister, again I was exposed to about three weeks or so, or a month, of everyone speaking proper Italian, except in mountain villages, where I visited with my mother—they still spoke dialect. And of course, I was fluent, and I still am. LINDA: So let me see though. Do I understand this correctly? Your mother spoke the dialect, but she came to… JULIA: But she could read and write proper Italian. LINDA: Right. So when she returned, and people were speaking more proper…18 JULIA: Right. But we only did family visiting. LINDA: Okay. JULIA: And so everyone she could understand because she could write and she had learned proper Italian. And my mother remembered the lyrics, the words to the songs she had learned from nursery school. She was sent to nursery school. Remember, my grandfather remarried, and his second wife had two babies. And nursery school, [foreign language - 00:49:00], it was called. [Foreign language - 00:49:04] is the proper Italian word. And they had very fine nursery school for children, and so my mother and her brother and sister were sent to nursery school, and -- my mother told me a very interesting thing. Up until she was 15 years old and went to this private Catholic school that was run by the Sisters of the Sacred Heart in Milan, even then, they had a woman who was referred to as [foreign language - 00:49:43]. And I haven't exactly known how to spell it, but a woman accompanied all these children to all their homes. The school was not far from their homes, but the children were accompanied to their homes by a lady. Even when she was 15 years old, someone accompanied all these students to their homes. LINDA: So when they walked home… JULIA: Right. Unless the parents came to get them; and if they couldn't, then somebody took them home. LINDA: Wow. So getting back to Boston, do you have all of these different regions where they are different Italians… from different regions is what I mean… JULIA: And all we young girls, all of us, we would play together, and then we would compare how our mother said things, how we would, you know, be there laughing, and then we [unintelligible - 00:50:48]. My mother said it like this. My mother said it like that. And all of us learned the different dialects, or they understood them even if they didn't try to speak them. 19 We had an awful lot of fun. We played on the street. We played street games. We learned to dance on the street. Our mothers taught us to crochet and embroider. That was another way that we passed the time. And the mothers, because this was small street, when the housework was done or the middle of the day, they came out, and when they weren't arms akimbo leaning out of their windows, they were down in the doorways, and we were watched all our lives, all of those young years. Somebody was always watching and looking out on the street, so nobody got away with anything. LINDA: Now, do the mothers socialize together? JULIA: Yes, they visited each other's little lots. As I said, I think I counted one time; there might have been 60 flats. It's still in existence, that neighborhood. But it's been bought by a developer. In fact, my brother still owns my father's house. He doesn't live there, but he still owns it. LINDA: So you had all different kinds of generations… JULIA: And all different kinds of cooking and all different generations; and when they died, they were waked in the apartments. They were not waked in funeral homes. Many children were born on the street, so we saw it all. We experienced it all. And young people died. I had two friends who were wonderful, lost a sister. Both of them lost sisters at 21 years old, and the whole street was born. It was complete support from everyone, because these girls had been -- one died in childbirth at 21 years old, and the other one died from apparently a blood clot just after some surgery. And everyone went to Boston City Hospital because we were only five minutes away from it. LINDA: Were the mourning traditions different between different regions? JULIA: They wore black. Some of them never took off that black. Even in the north end, most women who lost their husbands would wear black for the rest of their lives unless they remarried. Some of them did the same thing 20 on my street; if they lost their husbands they wore black housedresses. It was just the custom. But several children died, two of them from spinal meningitis, which at that time was fatal. And I think one was nine and one was 14. And of course, women, they mourned. They wept. They cried. That was a terrible thing. It was a part of life, and they didn't try to gloss over it. They lost a child in childbirth. You could hear them sometimes screaming from the pain even though doctor might come, an intern might come from Boston City Hospital. I remember that one of my friends' mother gave birth, and she lived on the third floor across the street. It must have been an extremely painful experience. My mother was marking the floor gray-faced, remembering her own. LINDA: So there was very little privacy. JULIA: The flat was small, and there was very little privacy. We knew who got along, who didn't get along. And some of them, even though they came from the old country, if things got too bad, they will separate. But for the most -- and the women as they got older, our parents, not my mother -- my mother went to work during the Depression when my father had an accident and broke his leg. He couldn't go to work. My mother went to work at the army base stitching uniforms. But it was only for a short time. As soon as my father was well enough to go back to work, then she had to stay home. LINDA: … in that area generally help each other? JULIA: To some extent. I will say this. When the Depression came, even though we lived in an industrial neighborhood, there were many pieces of vacant land. We have no idea who belonged to them, whether they were city owned land or belong to the neighboring factories. We had two very huge laundries which are still in existence. They were linen services. They 21 serviced hotels, restaurants. They did that kind of thing, places that used a lot of uniforms. So the girls who were brought up just ahead of me, many of them went to work in the laundry. I did too for a short time, while I went to night school after high school, and then as I said, when I passed the civil service exam, then I went to Washington. And after that, I did office work. But as the women grew older and their children were out of high school, many of them went to work either in the laundry or in a box factory. But during the Depression, every family sectioned off some small piece of these vacant lots and grew gardens. That was natural for them; even my father had an enormous garden from a piece of land that was vacant near our home. And according to my sister—this was while I was in Washington—and my mother, he just grew marvelous vegetables. Everybody grew, even in their backyards. No piece of land went to waste. So I never knew anyone who went hungry during the Depression. They would find jobs for each other. You just have to let -- they worked for private contractors, and Italian contractors were making their way up succeeding the Irish. So if my father was out of a job, he would notify the Italian men in the neighborhood and somebody would find him a job. LINDA: Now, did you notice that these people from different regions, did they kind of stick together? JULIA: Yes, they did. They [unintelligible - 00:58:30] somebody bought houses close together and lived in -- and people from the Piedmont occupied apartments kind of close together. But it was a tiny street. It was very small. So you were all -- you just grew up together. And as the women, as the families lived there longer 22 and longer, they got closer to each other, so they learned to respect each other. LINDA: What do you think the unifying factor would be, would have been? JULIA: The fact that they were all immigrants, and that they were locked into these -- they were a part of this small neighborhood. So you have to get -- men played bocce at the end of the street. Then they set up a social club. A few of the men from Abruzzo belonged to the Sons of Italy. And in the summertime, they would have a bus come to the street, and all the Italians who wanted to would bring watermelons and macaroni and meatballs and Italian bread and cheese and salami. If you want to tour, you can get on the bus and they would go to public parks where the Sons of Italy would have a big day. There would be a dance pavilion. They would dance to all this Italian music and have picnics, and the young kids would let them go [unintelligible - 01:00:15]. LINDA: Now, did people growing up here, did they begin their own social clubs depending on regions? JULIA: No. There was just one, and most of them were… I think the ones that belong to it mostly were from the Abruzzo. My father belonged to it a little while, but he wasn't really active. But there were quite a few families from the Abruzzo region of Italy and they belong. And they drank wine; they made wine in the house. The grapes would come into Charlestown, Massachusetts on the trains, and every October they would go to Charlestown and they would order a truckload of grapes. Then they would borrow grinders—my father did too—and grind the grapes. They might make a [unintelligible - 01:01:08] with boxes of grapes and make wine. So whenever you went to visit then [unintelligible - 01:01:16] you were an adult, they always offer you a glass of wine. Everybody's cooking was different because they came from different regions. My mother never learned to make what we refer to at the time as pasta [foreign language -23 01:01:33]. But today it's knows as spaghetti and meatballs. My mother had to learn after she came to America. That was not part of our Italian food culture at all. My mother came -- Milan is near a rice-growing area. So in Northern Italy, you eat cornmeal, polenta, and rice were the staples, soups. But in Southern Italy, they were used to for special occasions, they would -- it was always with tomato sauce that was the standard pasta with tomato sauce. Very seldom, they eat rice. None of us ate much meat. Meat was eaten very sparingly. In the Lombard region, the main dish which is now becoming, and again, has become very, very popular is called risotto. That was one of the staples that I grew up with. And the holidays, we had -- at that time, some of the delicacies that are important today were not important. Things like [foreign language - 01:03:10] was not important, but my mother told us about the Christmas customs in her home. She always mentioned this [foreign language - 01:03:19]. Now you can buy it anywhere. They import it, because the fly it in, and we had special things that we ate on holidays. And my mother told us about the Christmas customs of her family. LINDA: So was that a strong tradition on Christmas Eve celebration? JULIA: Christmas Eve was considered even by the Church as a day of fasting and abstinence. Christmas Eve, when I was growing up, was a non-meat day, and amongst the Italians, who were not accustomed to dairy anyway, they use cheese. But on Christmas Eve, you ate neither milk products nor meat. You ate fish. Now, the southern and central Italians would celebrate. They might cook six or seven, in some families, 12 different kinds of fish dishes. In my family, we observe Christmas Eve very quietly with no kind of celebration at all. The next day on Christmas, then we would have -- we might have polenta, which I made this Christmas, by the way. 24 LINDA: Oh, you did. JULIA: Yes. LINDA: Now, how did you serve it? JULIA: I plugged in? LINDA: You are. Just having system -- hang on. Okay. JULIA: Polenta is made—and I can assure you because I still have a package of flour there. You can buy it today under the Goya brand; it's the only place I find it. But in my father's day, you went to the various Italian markets and they would have barrels of it, and you bought course ground corn flour, cornmeal, and then you just put it into -- I still have my parents' cup of polenta pot. Everybody brought their polenta pot from Italy. It was called, in the dialect, the parieu. LINDA: How do you spell it? Do you know? JULIA: Parieu, P-A-R-I-E-U. It's how you pronounced it. That's in Lombard dialect. LINDA: And that's the polenta pot. JULIA: Right. Let's see, how did they say it in Italy? Paiolo is the proper Italian word, I think, if I can find it in here. Paiolo, P-A-I-O-L-O or P-A-I-U-O-L-O; it's a boiler, a copper, a cauldron, a kettle, that they used for polenta. LINDA: So how did your family used to serve the polenta? JULIA: The polenta was made in this copper pot that had a rounded bottom designed to hang from a crane on a fireplace. Because in Italy, they didn't have stoves, not even my mother's family, who lived in an apartment in the city, had a stove; they had small gas light burners. But if you have -- we have kitchen rangers, black iron ranges, and they would remove the round top on one section of it in the front where the fire was farthest, and boil a certain amount of water when you have much water to boil. And then you very, very slowly added the cornmeal. You added salt, maybe a little piece of garlic, and you slowly add in the cornmeal. 25 Now, one person has to hold the pot so it wouldn't tip over. And my father, that was my father's job, to stir that cornmeal until it was very thick and firm, and used an old piece of broomstick to do this, a [canalla], a piece of stick, like a piece of broomstick. Then when it was very firm, they would put down a cutting board, a piece of board on the table, cover it with a flour sack that had been -- a clean dishcloth. They used to make dishcloths out of flour sacks, the women, unbleached muslin. And my father would take that big kettle of polenta and dump it over on top of this cloth and then cover it. Then they use the string to cut it. You cut it because it would slice down with the string. And I've met many people in Fitchburg who remembered that same system of cooking polenta and cutting it with the string and dumping it over onto something. And we served it with various kinds of stew. Now, the southern and central Italians would most likely serve it with a meat ragout or Italian tomato sauce that they might use for any pasta dish. We served it with a stew that was called cassoeula, very difficult to spell, C-A-S-S-O-E-U-L-A. It was made from savoy cabbage, Italian sausages, spare ribs, and cooked with carrots and onions and garlic into light -- but no tomatoes, celery, into this wonderful stew, and I made it this Christmas. So from now on, as long as I'm alive, that's what we'll have for Christmas, and that's what we ate. Or they would make a rabbit… make a stew out of rabbit or chicken. But that's how we ate it. Then my father would eat it with gorgonzola cheese. And the next day, you sliced it and cut it and fried it with eggs for lunch or supper. I had an uncle, an old uncle, who lived with me after he was widowed, and he used to slice it the next day and layer it with milk and onions and bake it. And you can use polenta like you can use potatoes or rice with anything. It's delicious. My Irish husband loves it. Right, the kids love it. And you can make it out of a Quaker oats cornmeal too, but I don't like it as well as I 26 do the coarse meal. It has become quite popular again in upscale restaurants. LINDA: Now, when your mother would serve it on the board at the table, did… JULIA: Yeah. Put your dish there, and my father would take the string and the slice would fall on to the dish, then she'd serve the stew from the bowl or the pan. LINDA: I've also heard of people in Fitchburg, their mother would lay it out on the board, and then everyone would kind of eat it… JULIA: I have all that. Now, the first one I met since I've been here that tells me that, but I have a very close friend whose parents have 13 children, and the father made a big, long table to accommodate them. They lived in my father's, one of my father's flats, and when they made the polenta and the tomato sauce, he would lay it out on this table, and every child would have, every person would have a section and would eat with his fork or spoon, then they would put the tomato sauce over it. Right. LINDA: That's interesting. JULIA: Right. LINDA: So now, living with all these different regions or people from regions, were there different patron saints or celebrations? JULIA: A lot of them had relatives in the north end, and the north end was really the center of the Italian religious community, and so some of them would visit their relatives on feast days. Some of the Sicilian women who had relatives in the north end, they would go to the north on feast days. But we didn't do that. They would celebrate the feast days now that I think of it by cooking special foods, and a lot of them have like little [plaster] saints, and they would always keep votive candles, which was strange. They were little wicks that floated, little wicks, and you lit the wick, and they'd have like some kind of maybe a little asbestos washer, some little washer. I haven't seen those for 50-60 years. I haven't seen them. But I remembered the women used to keep -- a lot of the Southern Italian 27 women would keep votive lights. They would pray for their families and pray for good health, and they were attached to devotions to these different saints, or St. Joseph or the Virgin Mary, and they would keep little votive lights. I'm trying to think what -- they didn't have racks in them, but I don't know what the liquid was in these -- I mean, they still have the same candleholders. I got them on my dining room table right there, but they didn't have -- I don't remember the candles. I remember these little wicks./AT/jf/lk/es
Part one of an interview with Dorothy Giadone Poirier. Topics include: Where in Italy her grandparents came from and what they were like. Her father's work history. What her parents were like. The foods her mother would prepare. What her parents thought when Dottie's first marriage ended and their acceptance of her new husband. Memories of her family. Dottie is half Italian and half Sicilian. What family meals were like when Dottie was growing up. How Fitchburg, MA has changed over time. Her family moved to Leominster, MA. Her father's activity in the community and in politics. Memories of working in her father's furniture store. How her father got into the business. What it was like when her father passed away. What the customers were like at the furniture store. ; 1 DOTTIE: Oh, I bumped into her a lot at [Shritzer] or whatever. SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 00:00:09]. DOTTIE: Joe and Alice. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. DOTTIE: A lot of times they say well, come by and have a drink before, and I say no I'm going out. Uh, so I met him in the parking lot, and he said you better not say you can't meet -- you can't come for breakfast. Oh, I says, no. I'll be there. SPEAKER 1: Okay. [Unintelligible - 00:00:27] with the Center for Italian Culture 1002, and being interviewed five minutes of eleven. So thank you, Dottie. DOTTIE: Pleasure. SPEAKER 1: So you were telling me a little bit about your father, your father Bill Giadone. DOTTIE: Yes. Yes. SPEAKER 1: And just how influential he was in Fitchburg. DOTTIE: Very, very. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. Can you tell me a little bit? Mm-hmm. LINDAY: Oh yes. His grand -- his mother and father both, they were still -- I mean, they didn't die until I was, had -- I was a young adult. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. DOTTIE: Uh, his father was a very typical Italian, very stern. Mother was the salt of the earth. Just a sweet lady. In fact, one time I made a comment, I says to my husband, "Gee, sorry you didn't meet my grandmother, you would have just adored her." And then I says, "My grandfather—this is no baloney—you would have gotten along good with him." So he was man's man, my grandfather. But as a child, you don't realize that and you became frightened of him. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. DOTTIE: If he said be quiet, be quiet, except my younger sister. SPEAKER 1: Where did they come from? DOTTIE: My grandfather came from a small town in Sicily called [Pepepezzia]. 2 SPEAKER 1: Would you know how to spell…? DOTTIE: [Unintelligible - 00:01:43]. SPEAKER 1: Okay. So he came from Sicily? DOTTIE: Yes. SPEAKER 1: What about your grandma? DOTTIE: My grandmother also. They were both -- came over. I'm not sure of the exact -- well, maybe if we kind of -- my father was born in 1908, and he came here when he was six years old. So that was 1913? SPEAKER 1: Fourteen. DOTTIE: Fourteen, yeah. So that's when they came here. And they settled in Fitchburg, but I'm not sure exactly where they -- well, I guess at one time they lived on Hale Street when they were kids. I mean, I don't remember. I mean, back when my father was a kid. And my father went to -- I think he went to start the sixth grade, and then he left, and he worked around here in a bakery shop, I guess. I think it was Padua. And when he was 15, 16 years old, he [unintelligible - 00:02:40] something for a young fella to do that. And, I guess he went with some fellas, his friends from the area, and they got an apartment. And the reason he started shaving with a straight razor, which because every time he went to shave his razors were gone or dull or whatever. So he says I'll fix them. I'm going to learn how to shave with a straight razor. So he shaved with a straight razor up until the time he got an electric razor. SPEAKER 1: Really. DOTTIE: Yeah. So as a kid growing up, he shaved with a -- he had the strap and he shaved with a straight razor. SPEAKER 1: So you remember watching him do that? DOTTIE: Yes. Yes. And then he said that he worked his way up to bellboy, bell captain. He worked for the Yale Club in New York, and he said he got an education there as being a bellboy with the guys from Yale. Also, while he was in New York, he said he only did it for a while because the people were not clean at [unintelligible - 00:04:00]. I guess he tried everything, 3 and he says -- my mother tells the story, and she said, "Well, he gave that up quickly because someone came in that wasn't clean," so your father says, not doing this. So then he came back to Fitchburg for maybe a visit, and at the time they would have dances, and that's how he met my mother. He was running a dance thing. And he started an oil business and married in '32, so almost right away, and he had that oil business -- I want to say until [Audies], and that's when he started a furniture store. Actually, it was -- he was selling appliances. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. Right on Water Street? DOTTIE: Right on Water Street. And then he had a small little store, and then he bought a larger store where we lived. The bottom part was the store, and then upstairs was -- we had a fairly large apartment. SPEAKER 1: And that was at 3 -- 320 Water Street. DOTTIE: 320 Water Street. SPEAKER 1: Now, the oil business that he started, do you remember -- do you know the name of that? DOTTIE: Yes. Giadone's. And then he also had a gas station. SPEAKER 1: Now, how did he get involved in that? Do you know? DOTTIE: I don't remember. All I know is he had the gas station and he also had the oil business. I guess he started the gas business as someplace to put his trucks. So -- and he also, I guess, they delivered ice at the time too. SPEAKER 1: Okay. Do you remember…? DOTTIE: My mother, Fiona [Barzarelli], she was in Fitchburg, and it came from [unintelligible - 00:06:01]. SPEAKER 1: Okay. So they first were connected in New York? DOTTIE: Yeah, that area. That's where -- but she was very young. When she -- my mother had a very, very hard life because her mother was paralyzed, so she had to feed and clothe my grandmother, plus she had to do all the cooking. She had two brothers that she had to do the cooking and cleaning for. SPEAKER 1: And this was in Fitchburg by that time.4 DOTTIE: This was in Fitchburg, yeah. So…. SPEAKER 1: What did her father do? DOTTIE: Her father worked at a foundry in Fitchburg [unintelligible - 00:06:35] another foundry. And he worked in the Fitchburg area. And my grandfather too. I forget where he worked, but he worked in the area. SPEAKER 1: Now, did you know them also? DOTTIE: My grandmother I didn't remember. She died when I think I was two or three years old. I mean, these are the stories that -- Alice would know my grandmother better because she was older. SPEAKER 1: Okay. And Alice…. DOTTIE: Adante, yes. SPEAKER 1: Is she a [unintelligible - 00:06:59]? I don't remember. DOTTIE: Yes. Yes. Her father and my mother were brothers and sisters, so. And we were brought up close. She has -- well, she had -- there's only three now because one passed away. She had four brothers. SPEAKER 1: Okay. DOTTIE: And her mother and my mother were very close even though they were sister-in-laws. So my mother was close with my father's sister also. SPEAKER 1: So your mother had to take care of her mother? What happened when she got married? DOTTIE: Her father lived with us. My grandfather lived with us until I think I was seven or eight years old. I remember him just a little. Then my mother's brother, the other brother, went away and came home with this cousin of theirs, and he lived with us until he passed away. And he was only a cousin, and my mother would get -- 'cause men, you know, have as they get older they get a little sloppier and stuff. So my father would [unintelligible - 00:08:04] a relative. SPEAKER 1: So was that kind of expected back then…? DOTTIE: Yes. Just take care of your mother and father. They lived, like I said, they lived with us. My father, really -- today most men I don't think put up 5 with it. But my mother took care of her parents and her cousin. I mean, they never lived alone as a couple. SPEAKER 1: Ever lived alone? DOTTIE: Nope. Because when they got married she had my grandmother, and then she had my grandfather, and then we got Renaldo, which was her cousin. Excuse me. And then the kids came along. SPEAKER 1: Now, when grandparents live with their daughter or a son, what happens when…? DOTTIE: Well, see I wasn't too young to have known that, but as far as I know it's because of the way my father was. I'm sure he made the decision. When I was -- my grandfather was a very quiet man, my mother's father, so I don't know about the mother, because like I said, I was only two or three when she died, and I don't remember her. She had arthritis; her hands were closed. But my mother said she was a strong lady as far as her personality, because she would stick a broom in her hand, you know, this way, and make sure her bed was made to her satisfaction. And my mother cooked like better than most chefs. SPEAKER 1: Your mother did? DOTTIE: Not even having recipes and stuff, and she would just -- unbelievable. My friends would say, we're going to take you to a restaurant that you're not going to complain about. And I'd say, well, okay. But even today, to this day I go out and I still complain about where we've been and what we've -- you know, the food is not -- like I said, my mother was such a good cook. SPEAKER 1: Give me some examples of what she would cook. DOTTIE: Anything. I mean, we never had -- I mean, I'd come home and her dining room buffet would be covered with all kinds of pastries. I'd go, "Ma, we having company?" And she says, "No, I felt like baking," and she baked, but every night we had some form of pasta, because my father liked a little dish of pasta, or it would be soup or a little dish of spaghetti. But he always had to have his meat and vegetables and salads. We always had a balanced meal, and we didn't even know it because, we'd have the pasta 6 first, and then we'd have meat, and vegetables and we'd have salad last. And we'd have dessert. And that was -- I mean, that's how we ate. I mean, when the holidays came around, I mean, we had a little more, but every -- they would say, do you eat like that all the time? And we'd say, what do you mean? We just took that for granted because that's how my mother cooked. My father didn't like leftovers. So if he had a meeting or something, she would call my friends and say come for supper, and we're having leftovers, and my girlfriend's husband says, Fiona's leftovers are better than most restaurants' first course. So they came. I mean, she'd switch around, right. She'd call Tommy and [unintelligible - 00:11:39] and say come for supper, and my father didn't like beef stew or stuff like that. So if he was going to be away or a meeting or going to go to a convention or something, we would have that when my father wasn't around. So she would do things that. I mean, she pleased my father -- my father came first. If my father -- we would have the store closed at 6:00 so we would have dinner at 6:30. So my father got stuck with a customer, we would not eat until my father came home. So it was -- we had sat down to have dinner every night together. And when I started working at the store and then my father would say, he'd start talking about business and then I'd start clearing the table and my mother would say, "Well, I'm not done." I'd say, "Well, I am," because she would, you know, I would say, "Dad, you know what? You're a great father, but a boss, you leave a lot to be desired." SPEAKER 1: And how did he…? DOTTIE: He laughed. But he was an ace. Oh, you're lucky [unintelligible - 00:12:47]. "What are you, crazy? I can't take a day off." The day off I get is the day I have. I can't take just the day off and tell him I'm going shopping. What are you, crazy? Well, play sick. I live at home. How can I play sick? SPEAKER 1: But you stayed? 7 DOTTIE: Yeah. Stayed there until I got married. So I mean, you do what you do because -- we had a girl working for us, and she would be black and blue because my father would go -- he would start, you know, you didn't do this right, you didn't do that right, and I'd be pitching it because I didn't want to answer him. And so she'd go, "He's your father." I'd go, but he's wrong. I'd be, "Josie, if he's told you this was black and it was white and you would say, 'Yes, Bill, you're right.'" I'd go, "Josie, that's not right." And she'd say, "But he's your father and he's your boss. You've got to say yes," and I'd go, I can't do this. SPEAKER 1: But evidently he liked having you around. DOTTIE: God, yes, because we argued, but we still, you know, he would say, "Well, my daughter will -- she'll pick out the colors for you, and she'll do, you know, whatever," but he was tough. But I loved him dearly. I mean, he was, you know -- my first husband I separated from and I started to date Teddy, and I wasn't really -- your father that you're dating again. You know, I'm in my 30s now, I mean, I'm still -- but you know what they got you over here. SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 00:14:35]? DOTTIE: Yep. So I go and I tell -- I said, "Dad, I'm dating," and he says, "Yes, I know." I mean, who told you? He says nobody. He says your whole personality changed. SPEAKER 1: And he waited for you to say. DOTTIE: Yes. But I, you know, if you think they don't. You think they don't know you but they do. LINSAY: Now, did you move back in with your parents when you got separated? DOTTIE: Yes, I did. But I got separated and I went back home, and then we got together again and we went back to an apartment, and then the second time I just stayed in the apartment. SPEAKER 1: What did your parents think of your getting separated? DOTTIE: Well, they were glad because they didn't really like him. Teddy, they adored. Teddy they adored, because he was wonderful to my parents. He 8 was absolutely -- if he did nothing else for me he was just wonderful to my parents. To me, it was important. I mean, he -- my father called him and said I have to go here. He'd go, "Okay, Bill. When?" and I'll pick you up and whatever. He would do that. And my mother by then was in a nursing home. Before that, he just loved her. So he, you know, would take her out to dinner, and she just loved that, because my father was always busy with other things, and so we'd take her. And she just, you know, she just thought Teddy was -- she'd say, I want to go somewhere that we don't bump into someone he knows, because he was that type of person. If he didn't know someone when we walked into the place, he knew them when we left. That's sure. I actually believe, and the reason it's felt that way is because when -- I think they had a French priest that baptized my mother, and he couldn't -- that was how he felt it. So that's how -- the only other person that has that name is a cousin. SPEAKER 1: And was she named after her? DOTTIE: I think maybe she -- her real name is Virginia. In fact when people refer to her as Virginia… but you knew her as, you know, we always called her [Bunah]. SPEAKER 1: But her first name is Virginia? JENNIEFER: Yes. SPEAKER 1: Okay. DOTTIE: And she was -- her father died before she was born, which was my mother's brother. My mother had two brothers, and the two brothers had large families. Alice comes from -- which there was five and the other was eight. And this last one that was born was the Balderelli, but she never met her father because he died before she was born. The mother was pregnant for him when he died. That's a large family. And my mother's nieces and nephews were all close. They would all stop by and see her -- not every day, but three of the girls were -- I mean, they would come at least once a week to see her. SPEAKER 1: Now, what made them so close?9 DOTTIE: My mother -- one of my mother's niece was getting married and the father didn't approve, so my mother and father did the wedding for them. And for one reason or another, she was -- but even the guys would -- one of the guys worked for my father, and we'd just -- I don't know, I just can't explain it. And my father's family too, we were close, too. I never had any brothers, and my two cousins on my father's side are the brothers that I never had. During the holidays, my father's -- not so much the Balderellis because they were such a large family and they, you know, they but on the holidays, my father's brother and sister, we would always get together on Christmas Eve, and then it got to be too much for my mother, and then one of my cousins took over on Christmas Eve over at his house. And then as we got older, everybody, you know, got their own family. So we started to go to my sister's home. SPEAKER 1: Now, did your mother work? DOTTIE: She worked at the store. UNKNOWN: She also worked at home. DOTTIE: My father never had her on the payroll until later, until the doctor says, you know what, she works as hard as anybody, in fact, when the help saw my mother come, they'd go, oh, my God. She would work as hard as anybody. She cleaned the store. She decorated the store. She did the windows until later on. I mean, she worked as hard, so when she became -- when it came time for her to collect Social Security, they came and interviewed me. I and her. So this little twirp, I said, would you fire your mother? He's such a -- he's so -- he didn't even ask for help if she came into work. I mean, we weren't lying. She worked there as hard as anybody else. SPEAKER 1: But there wasn't any record? DOTTIE: There wasn't any record until later on when he put on her the payroll, but it wasn't really a record type thing. So they said, well, she never -- I says, well she worked harder here than most of us did. SPEAKER 1: So you mentioned the doctor? 10 DOTTIE: Dr. Silva was a close friend of my father's, and he said you should have her on the books because she's there as much as anybody. And so my father said, yeah, you're right. So he put her on his, you know, in [unintelligible - 00:20:43]. SPEAKER 1: So how did you mother feel about that? Was that kind of liberating, or…? DOTTIE: No. She didn't care one way or another. I mean, my father paid for everything. You know, we would just, you know, he would -- my mother'd go uptown and she'd, you know, the [unintelligible - 00:20:58] charges all over. And so she says your father is gonna complain. I says, "Ma, if you spend $5 or $500, he's going to complain. So spend the $500. He's going to complain one way or another." I says, "Ma, he's been saying that since you've been married he's going to shut your account. Did he ever do it? No, he's not going to do it." SPEAKER 1: Before we turn the recorder on, you had mentioned that you're half Italian, half Sicilian. DOTTIE: Yes. SPEAKER 1: So tell me about that. DOTTIE: I mean, I never thought about it. I just said, if anybody asked me what I was, I would say I'm Italian. And so I still say I'm Italian. But people who live in Sicily and other -- see, they figure that's the boot part and we're close to Africa. It was just a big joke. And it still is. But I feel that I'm Italian, and in my heart I know I am. So I say I'm half [Mathogen] and half Sicilian, which I am. And I'm proud of my heritage. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. So if you could think of what attributes are given to the Sicilians? DOTTIE: I don't know. I just think that what I could -- the only thing I could see is because my mother is such a good cook, and that's one thing, and my father was forceful in his -- and that's how I perceive to be a Sicilian. They're kind of, you know, forceful. And the [Mathies] are on the quiet side because my uncles were quiet. Well, I don't remember the one that 11 died early, but my other uncle was just this solemn man and just a sweetheart. I mean, just [unintelligible - 00:22:44]. SPEAKER 1: Was there any good-natured jesting done? DOTTIE: Yes. SPEAKER 1: You know, about being Sicilian in the house. DOTTIE: Oh yes. Oh god, between my Uncle Jeff, you're lucky that my sister married you and you're Sicilian, you're up close to Africa. I mean, just jokingly, you know. But when my uncle was [unintelligible - 00:23:06] took sick, he and my father went on a trip for almost two months. They toured the United States, and my father would say, "Oh my god, if you stopped in this restaurant and your uncle looked at it, he'd say we're not eating here." He said, he'd be starving but if he didn't like the looks of it, he said we'd have to drive another 50 miles. SPEAKER 1: So food was very important? DOTTIE: Yes. SPEAKER 1: To the family? DOTTIE: Yes. My uncle married a French woman, and she cooked as good as my mother. Alice's mother is French. And she was as good a cook as my mother. SPEAKER 1: Tell me about the preparation of the food and the table, you get the impression all of that is very important, the presentation. DOTTIE: Yeah. When I tell you it's -- another thing my mother had a knack to do, if my father came home with five extra people for dinner and didn't call my mother, there was still enough food to serve these people. If he phoned after a meeting with people, my mother would put out a spread, and I'd look at sisters and say, where did she get that? She just had a knack of, you know, putting things together and making it look beautiful. In fact, my husband did all the cooking and I set the table so it looked pretty. SPEAKER 1: But did your mother also set the table each day too? DOTTIE: Well, I guess, us kids did that. But it was -- when we all sat down to dinner together, both sisters got married early so there was -- if I was 12 working she'd say, okay, and I was living in my own apartment, she says, "Well, come for supper before you go home," and I'd say, yeah okay. My sisters say, "Oh, you're lazy. You don't want to cook." I'd go, yep, you're right. So she would make sure that we stopped at least two or three nights, and most of the time if it was someone's birthday, she would have us all for dinner and cook our special, whatever we liked. And it was obvious whoever's birthday it was, and most of the time it was one of the other sisters that was there. So one night we're all there and my father says, whose birthday is it because nobody assisted, and we called everybody. But most of the time, I mean, she'd -- I mean, she could have 10 people at dinner and think nothing of it. SPEAKER 1: So there was always enough to eat? DOTTIE: Oh. If you asked my mother if you wanted her to go shopping at [Filene's] or go to a gourmet grocery store, she'd say I want to go to the gourmet grocery store. I mean, she -- I'm going into Boston in the north end and like to try different -- she says, "Okay, I got to go to the grocery store before you take me home." I said I just got to go in for a loaf of bread and she'd be in there an hour. I'd say, "Ma, Ma, you said a loaf of bread." "Well, I decided I need to get this, this, and this." Mm-hmm. Things that people consider gourmet now. We had polentas growing up. We had risotto growing up. We had baked Alaska pie growing up. I mean, we had lobster [nugood]. We had baked stuffed lobster. We had razor clams. Some people don't even know what razor clams are today. SPEAKER 1: Tell me, how would she make those? I'm familiar with them. DOTTIE: Razor clams. She would just -- what she would do is steam them first, take the, you know, the clams out and then chop them up and make stuffing with it, and then put them back in the shell and put a little bread crumbs and bake them in the oven. I think they were absolutely delicious. I'm telling my husband about razor clams, he says, "I've never hear of razor clams." We're at the [unintelligible - 00:27:18] walk in the beach 13 and I said see, see that, see that clam? That's a razor clam. Of course, I think you had to -- I hadn't seen them in years. SPEAKER 1: I never see them in the stores. I've seen them at the beach. DOTTIE: Yeah. I've never, ever seen them -- I haven't seen them in the stores for years. And another thing is that -- well, she didn't do this because there were certain things that she didn't make. Uncle did. SPEAKER 1: French uncle? DOTTIE: No, my Italian uncle on my father's sister's husband. I think he was from Poland. My middle sister was the finicky eater. I mean, my father would say, "Barbara, have a little wine." "But daddy, I don't like it." "Honey, just try the wine, it'd do you good." So, but my sister and I would, you know, we always had the wine and the champagne. We've had the, you know, he always made sure we had a little just so that when we were older that we were accustomed to drinking and we didn't go out, and you know, and the cabinets would be -- whatever was in the house would be open to all of us. All of us. So now my sister gets married and she lives upstairs from my aunt and uncle, and she called and said, "Oh, Uncle Charlie made me --" we called them "babaluccis" in Italian, and I said, oh yeah. My sister says, "That's nice, thank you. Bye," and hung up. I called and I said, "Uncle Charlie, you like Barbara better than me." He says, no honey—because he had an accent—I like you both the same. I said nope. Oh no, he says, I like you both. I said, well, you make Barbara babaluccis and I didn't get any. The next day I had a pair. SPEAKER 1: What are babaluccis. DOTTIE: They're the snails. They're little snails -- he used to do them in a sauce that was absolutely delicious. And another thing my mother never made was tripe. And I never had it because I didn't like the smell. My grandmother would cook it and it was ugh. It was bad. They bought it and they had to clean it, and it was terrible. So now I used to have to go with Teddy, and we'd go out and they have tripe. I got ugh. So he goes, try it. So I say okay. I tried it. Delicious. Now, my aunt's sister-in-law 14 comes from New Jersey, and she makes a whole batch for my husband, but my mother still never cooked that. That was one thing she never cooked, and baccala. But 99 percent of everything else, she did, so. My favorite was that she used to do this roast pork with the center cut that she used to have, then we cut the bone so that we could have the bone. We would fight for the pork, so she'd make sure that we'd all get a piece of it. But that was my favorite, favorite dish that she did. SPEAKER 1: Now, I know that everyone would sit at the table. Was your father given priority, first serving? DOTTIE: He was given the first serving, but we all had -- the only thing that we didn't have that he had because we didn't like it was liver, because he liked liver occasionally. But he was served first. But whatever he had, we had. And the other thing, I don't think as kids, we didn't like lamb chops, so my mother would make something else for us. But now lamb is my favorite meal now. But you know, like I said whatever my father had, we had. Nothing was taken from us. I mean, he would serve for us. But if he had steak, we had steak. I mean, we'd choose not to have it. That was because didn't want it. But I have a friend that came from a family of nine, and father would have butter and the kids would have margarine, and so we said that if he could have steak and the kids would have something else, and so we had a brother, so this brother says, "When am I going to have this steak and butter?" He says when you start to work, and you know, contribute. They came home and he says, well, here's my money I want steak and butter or whatever, and the father says, oh no, some of it's for your room, some of it's for the clothes, and some of it's for this. You still don't have enough money for steak. SPEAKER 1: Now, who served the food at the table? DOTTIE: My mother never sat down. She did. I should say she was always on the edge. My father -- we always ate in the dining room in Leominster because we'd -- I'd say 90 percent of the time -- we had a large kitchen but my father felt claustrophobic, so 90 percent of the time we ate in the 15 dining room because it was it the stove and this thing was here and the dining room was here. So it was actually closer to the dining room than it was to go across the kitchen to the other part. But my mother served. SPEAKER 1: Now, would your father…? DOTTIE: It didn't matter. No. It didn't matter. SPEAKER 1: You know what I want to do? It's because just that you're… DOTTIE: Sure. I'm sorry. SPEAKER 1: No, right here, because you're… DOTTIE: Oh, I'm sorry. SPEAKER 1: No. It's all right. I'm just afraid it will [unintelligible - 00:33:02]. Okay. Back to your father. Do you have any idea why his parents chose Fitchburg? DOTTIE: They must have had friends here. Not really. No. I don't know why they really, no, I don't -- no, I don't. No, I don't remember hearing why they choose here. SPEAKER 1: And also, but I think the recorder wasn't on; you were talking about an experience… DOTTIE: They just said that it was tough growing up because they originally -- they lived in the patch, which is considered Italian when they were growing up. First it was Irish, and then they moved out and then the Italians moved in, and they moved out. Now I think it's the Puerto Ricans that live mostly in that area. I don't think there's anybody left even down, you know, beyond it, because this is Water Street, and down this way almost every house was Italian. SPEAKER 1: Well, there's Doris… DOTTIE: Oh yeah, she's still there. Yeah, she's still there. I forgot. Yes, she is. She lives down Railroad Street. Yes. Lovely lady. I mean, you see her, she makes you feel she's so happy to see you. She comes and gives you -- so good to see you. SPEAKER 1: She's special. DOTTIE: Yes, she really is. 16 SPEAKER 1: So do you remember any…? DOTTIE: All I can remember is that, you know, I grew up there. I worked there, and so I was, you know, eight years ago. So I was there, you know, all my life, and you see the changes as, you know, you grow up but… SPEAKER 1: So tell me about the changes. DOTTIE: Well, you could walk down the street, and you know, you knew everybody, and it was amazing how many [unintelligible - 00:34:57] that was on that street growing up, and each one of them -- I don't know how they survived, because each one of them had a large family, and there must have been a dozen stores from 5th Street to 1st Street. And they had -- there was [colors] and there was the [Cabones], there was [Ilinestis]. There was another two Cabones. There was a [Casthetes]. There was a Gloria chain, which is -- I still, I don't know if they should have one in Leominster too, but part of the Gloria chain was in where our store is now. It was -- my father's furniture store originally was built as the garage where they would park cars. And when we were across the street, he bought this building, and he converted it into a furniture store. And one time, Coca-Cola had rented the warehouse, and they had 12 trucks on the roof of this building. The building is still standing very, very strong. Some of the parts of the building are fallout shelters. That's how -- 'cause it was built so well. And it is -- it [unintelligible - 00:36:37] Water Street up to Spruce Street up to Hale Street, 'cause when you look at the building in the front, it doesn't appear to be latched. It goes all the way up to Spruce Street and Hale. Spuce Street is the street just before the store. Okay. And Hale Street is the street that runs parallel with Water Street. So that building goes all the way up to Hale Street. SPEAKER 1: And you mentioned that it was a fall out? DOTTIE: Part of it is. SPEAKER 1: Wow. Yeah. And when did that come about? DOTTIE: Well, I think World War II. They came in and they, you know, they check out the buildings and stuff and put up these things. 1953, that's when he 17 converted the garage into the store because, well, right now, if you were to go in there the ceilings don't appear high, but there is six more feet. They dropped the ceiling. Or they dropped it to a, you know, a fall ceiling. But beyond that there's six more feet. SPEAKER 1: I thought you just mentioned -- were those grocery stores? DOTTIE: Yes, they were little groceries, and… SPEAKER 1: Your mother must have been in heaven. DOTTIE: She did -- she [unintelligible - 00:37:49] I said no. I'm going to a different store. Well, this one has this one in her [unintelligible - 00:37:53], and as they stopped, you know, maybe they'll pass away or whatever, they, you know, they spaced up, because there's nothing on there now. There's not a grocery store on Water Street now. Maybe there is, but up for a -- but after they stopped existing -- she bought very, very little meat from the supermarkets. She bought it from Sal's Grocery Store up in -- they would deliver to -- 'cause I've been everywhere in Leominster. They would deliver to the store, then we'd take it. I would say, "I want a pound of this, I want a pound of that. I want two pounds," whatever she wants, she'd give them an order and he'd deliver it. SPEAKER 1: So they still have these grocery stores, they weren't run by the -- they were run from daughters? DOTTIE: Maybe, not really, no. I can just remember just one. It was -- he adopted, but it was not even a son. It was someone that worked for him, but he ran it for a while. And it's actually a parking lot now of this [unintelligible - 00:39:04]. There was a grocery store there in the building up above it. I mean, they had like tenement houses that we needed parking lots, so then my father bought that building and tore it down. SPEAKER 1: Know everyone who lived in the patch more or less. DOTTIE: More or less. In fact, it was about -- I wanna say 12 years ago, they had a patch reunion, and it was wonderful. They had, you know, it was some people you hadn't see in years and wonderful. We should do it again, of 18 course. It's a lot of work, but no one has, you know, taken any initiative and done it again. SPEAKER 1: Did anyone take pictures? DOTTIE: But I do remember, I had this lady, this Mrs. [Impressor], was just a sweetheart of a lady and sometimes she would just come in the store just to fill her -- she was turning 100, and [unintelligible - 00:40:01] called me. She says, "Dottie, how come you haven't sent in your return?" I says, I was hurt, because one of my girlfriends got invited, and I says, I wonder why [unintelligible - 00:40:11] sisters, Dottie? How come you didn't send in the return?" I says, 'cause I didn't get -- that was when, again all Italians were there, so it was, I went to a wedding and hadn't seen people in a lot of years. SPEAKER 1: So do you remember who the organizers were of the class reunion? I may like to talk to them. DOTTIE: I'm going to say Marie Cabone had something to do with it, but that's not her married name, her married name is… SPEAKER 1: We can get it later. DOTTIE: Okay. She may have had something to do with it. I'm not sure. SPEAKER 1: So tell me about the changes in the patch. So when did… DOTTIE: Interesting. You know what? You go to work every day you're going to see some things -- I want to say it started to change -- my aunt was walking down in front of the store, someone knocked her down and stole her bag. I says, I don't this believe this happening. First of all, it's my aunt, and second of all, in front of our store, so that was heartbreaking. SPEAKER 1: When was that about? DOTTIE: I want to say maybe 30 years ago. SPEAKER 1: Wow. DOTTIE: Time goes by so fast, because my aunt's been dead since I want to say '80. Time goes by so fast, maybe it was 25 years ago. At that time they'd leave the doors open, and you know, you never locked your doors or anything. You never thought about it, never thought about having an alarm system.19 SPEAKER 1: Did you ever [unintelligible - 00:41:57]? DOTTIE: No. First of all to let the store, anything [unintelligible - 00:42:04] built a store for furniture must be, and we had it, so we just -- fortunately we had a good clientele, and things were, you know, we were all right as far as, you know, our customers would come in and we'd advertise, so it was fine up until [unintelligible - 00:42:27] and then it just wasn't fun anymore. SPEAKER 1: Did your parents continue living about? DOTTIE: No, no, we moved to Leominster when I was… and we moved to… SPEAKER 1: Why was that done? DOTTIE: Why was that done? Well, my father and mother needed -- they bought the land on I'd say Ellis Street, and at that time my uncle, who was a plasterer and bricklayer, came and said to my father and mother there's a beautiful house in Leominster that's for sale. It's only six months old, and my father and mother went to look at it, and they fell in love with it because it was -- it is a brick Tudor, I want to say an English Tudor. And it was at that time one of the nicest houses in Leominster. So they got it for a good deal so they bought it. SPEAKER 1: Did life change after moving from [unintelligible - 00:43:32] Street? DOTTIE: No, because we still went to church in Fitchburg, I still worked, all my friends were in Fitchburg, I went to school in Fitchburg. In fact, someone said to me later on in life Dottie, how do you like living in Leominster, I said I've lived here most of my life, they said you wouldn't think so. In fact, up until a few years ago, people would ask me where I was from and I would say Fitchburg, and I'd say -- now I'd tell them I'm from Leominster because things have changed you know, it's a different… it's changed immensely. It's not the small community that it was. In fact, up until I worked, because I had property in Fitchburg I voted in Fitchburg up until ten years ago. SPEAKER 1: Ten years ago.20 DOTTIE: I would say. Of course I wasn't active like I was when I was working. I belonged to the Chamber of Commerce; I belonged to the government stations. And when you retire, you get away from that, and it isn't as… see, my father was active in everything, he was active in politics, he was active in the community, he was active in the church, he was active in the Sons of Italy, he was active in politics, so he was very active in the community. In fact he and a couple of his friends were instrumental in him getting elected mayor. SPEAKER 1: So he was instrumental with that. DOTTIE: They were very good friends, yep. In fact he was instrumental in John Volpe becoming governor. SPEAKER 1: Really? Tell me about that. DOTTIE: He and John Volpe became friendly when they belonged to the Sons of Italy on a state level. So John Volpe called my father and said to him, "I am running for governor," and "Can you help?" My father said sure. So he called one of his, campaign manager called my father and he says, "We're coming into Fitchburg on Monday, can you introduce him to -- or can I introduce him to a lot of people in a short period of time?" So he actually closed the store down and had every one of us call our friends, customers that we thought would come, and he had open house at his house. And at that time, well he still, he belonged to the Rotary and he belonged to… I don't know if he belonged to [unintelligible - 00:46:19] we got the book and we just called people up and said… I'm not Republican, they said we don't care, just come, we want faces, a lot of people. So we booked. It was the early part of June so he says we'll have it outside, and at that time there was too many people and it wasn't enough time, so we had to have it catered. 21 So I called the caterer, he had all the summer furniture in the store delivered to the house and was going to have it outside. Well, it poured like you can't believe. We had tons and tons of people still and he called my father a few days later and he says Bill, if I have six friends like you throughout the state I'll be elected, and he was elected. SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 00:47:07]. DOTTIE: No, the only job my father ever got for that was -- and because Joe Adante asked him to take it was to be on the Board of [unintelligible - 00:47:18] and so he took that. The only thing he go from helping so much was people would come in and say can you get me a low number plate, and he would buy the letter, and I got a low number plate. In fact because sometimes you don't think, I got my number plate is 99G, so I got that. But the woman that did it had to do some research because it was the ninth month, the ninth day in [unintelligible - 00:47:54]. And my father had -- in fact my brother-in-law still had, it's 52W, he was 52 years old [unintelligible - 00:48:03] the first time. He had 52W. So now he's running again, and Joe Ward is running against him, and he's from Fitchburg. My father, I says, "Are you crazy? You can't go out and campaign for him," I said, "It's suicide." I said, "You have a business." He said, "I also have the right to choose who I want to vote for." So he called up Joe Ward and he says to him, "Joe, I've known you for a good many years, but you know my affiliation with John. We've been friends for years. I would say that if John wasn't running I would help you campaign." He says, "I can't thank you enough for calling, and I still think you're gentleman." He also was Republican chairman in Fitchburg and Leominster area for a long time. SPEAKER 1: Who was? DOTTIE: My father. SPEAKER 1: Your father? DOTTIE: Yeah.22 SPEAKER 1: How did he get involved in politics? DOTTIE: Well, because [unintelligible - 00:49:15] like Pete Levante was running for mayor. That way, he was active with -- he'd gotten involved with John Volpe, and then he just was campaigning, he was Republican chairman for a long time in Fitchburg and Leominster area. That's how he got involved in it. And he would always take people home to the house and we got involved in it. This is changing the subject because he would say yes to you, if someone asked him something and he couldn't do, well he could do it, but to take someone somewhere he'd say yes that's fine, we'll do it. He'd say, "Dorothy, do this," and I'd get angry and I'd say I can't make a decision on my own, but I always had a -- especially with the nuns, when I was young they didn't drive, they didn't have their own car. So if they had to go somewhere, they would rely on the community of, you know, our parish to take them somewhere. Because we always had two cars, they would call my father and say I have to go such and such a place. "No problem. Dorothy, take them." I'd say, "Why do you do that?" He says, "What do you mean why do I do what?" Make decisions for me. He says "I don't make decisions, you do." But it was fun. One time he called me from Florida and said you have to be in so-and-so's wedding. I says dad, I don't know them. He said that's all right. I knew the family but I didn't really know, you know I didn't know the bride at all. He said that's all right, I do. I said but dad, I'm already in five weddings, I can't afford it. He said that's all right, I'll pay for it. So I'm in this wedding, didn't really -- well, I knew the guy that was with me because it was, you know, I knew the family, but the bride and groom. Marty's father, you know Pete Levante, was because most of them were Italian, he was invited to all of the weddings, but he says Dorothy, I says what, he says, you're doing this for a living. My sisters were quiet and 23 they never worked at the store. I should say my middle sister's quiet, my other sister, we call her Mouth because she has to have last lip Susie, she has to have the last word. SPEAKER 1: And from the church, your father was involved with the church also? DOTTIE: He was, you know he'd collect on Sundays, and also if they needed money they'd come and he'd help collect. When I was young they used to have these carnivals or you know when they have people at merry go rounds with stuff. SPEAKER 1: Like an amusement… DOTTIE: Thank you, yes. And they would run those in summer months, and he became very friendly with the pastor. In fact they would go away for a few -- you know, like to go to Florida. My mother wouldn't go because she had us kids, and so my father would go with the priest. SPEAKER 1: And what was his name? DOTTIE: Father [Campanelli]. He ended up being in Worcester, he was Monsignor Campanelli. And we had Father John Capolano who was at our parish for a long time. So one time I said can I have a new dress, not this week, "Well if Father John came and asked you for money you'd give it to him." He'd say, "Listen here, young lady, anything I gave to the church I always got back tenfold." So he was, you know [unintelligible - 00:53:00] he was involved with that. But I was baptized, communion, confirmation, got married out of there, probably die and be buried out of there. So definitely, definitely. SPEAKER 1: Do you think… DOTTIE: That generation, the men were superior. I have two cousins that my father treated, I mean he was wonderful to us, but he treated these guys like they were his sons. And he was just good to them. In fact one of them worked for him for quite awhile, and he's a multimillionaire now in Leominster. SPEAKER 1: Who's that?24 DOTTIE: Charles Tito. But he started with my father, and his brother worked for -- no, Sam never worked for us, maybe on the summer or something. I was close with them, just thought these guys were the best. SPEAKER 1: Was education? DOTTIE: Yes, but he never had it. But he thought it should be, you know, you should have -- in fact I could have gone longer but I chose not to. Then after, two or three years later I decided, I said I think I want to -- he said well if you want to go back you've got to pay. I said well if the [unintelligible - 00:54:39]. SPEAKER 1: Was it an option for you to work at the store or was it just assumed? DOTTIE: Assumed. Because first of all if I had left, when I left [Deed], I should have gone to work out of town for a few years just to get an idea of how things are run differently. But it was assumed that I would come to the store and stay there. Everything. I said it's a good thing I wasn't a boy because… no, good thing I never learned how to drive the truck, because if I did he would have sent me out on the truck too, because I did everything there. I mean, you didn't say, you know, when you go to a store today they go that's not my department or that's not my job. Those words did not exist with my father. I'll never forget one time he says to me call this person up, they owe us money. I says, okay, "Hello, Mrs. Jones or Mr. [unintelligible - 00:55:49]?" And he says, "You haven't been in for a while," and he hung up. So I said he hung up on me, I mean no one ever did that to me. So he said call him back. He says, "If you don't stop calling me back, I'm going to come down and hit you with a baseball bat." Well, I mean I started to cry. My father said, "Give me that phone." But then after a while you learn how… I mean, if he did that to me now I'd say go ahead, come, I'll have one too. 25 But as a kid, I mean first of all you wouldn't talk to anybody that way, we weren't brought up -- I mean, even to this day you know how you see policemen you get nervous, you were always brought up to respect your elders and authority. But today, you know, even like if you said the teacher said this, you never went home and said the teacher said this because they'd say whatever you did you deserved it. But today… I have a friend that's a teacher. He came in the store and his hands were all scratched. I says, "What happened to you." He says, "I was taking a second grader to the principal and he was scratching me." SPEAKER 1: That would have been unheard of? DOTTIE: You would never, ever. I mean, if the teacher said whatever, you never went home and said the teacher said or did whatever, because they were always right no matter what. SPEAKER 1: Did you ever feel that you were treated differently? DOTTIE: I'll tell you what, because all my friends were Italian. In fact, I told this to Alice just recently. I says I was blessed because there's a big difference between my sister and I, there's like almost eight years difference. I was the first girl born in the family, I was the first child born in my mother and father's close friends. So I was [unintelligible - 00:57:55]. I had grandparents that weren't my grandparents that, you know, my mother and father's friend's parents, I mean they couldn't treat me any better if I was their grandchildren. Back then grandchildren missed out because they passed away before, you know, they had kids. So I had -- everybody was my, you know, I was loved a lot, my uncles, my father's friends, my aunt. Like I said I was the first girl in the family. My aunt had two boys, but I was the only girl. And the others didn't have children until later on, so I came along and my sisters came later. And my father wasn't as busy when I was born. And as my sisters came along, he became more and more active in the community. In fact he was even 26 president -- not president, he was treasurer of the Boy Scouts in Nashoba Valley, and he never had any boys. SPEAKER 1: So it seems as though he… DOTTIE: That's right, he was always, he was president of the Chamber of Commerce a couple of times, he was involved with Rotary. SPEAKER 1: What was that about him? DOTTIE: He liked people. He liked to be active. He liked to be busy. See, that was his hobby more or less because he didn't golf, he didn't do any of those things. So he kept busy and active in politics and whatnot. SPEAKER 1: Did he ever have a talk with you as far as being [unintelligible - 00:59:42]? DOTTIE: Maybe we just kind of -- no, I don't think so. I think he just took it for granted that, you know, it was amazing how far he came, he had a lot of foresight because he took chances where, you know, it was unheard of. Like he bought this building that was like a shell, and he -- the man that built was… bought it to… he built it to park cars and it… and my father turned around and he said, "Well we could put a store there, right?" and he did. SPEAKER 1: Well, how did he get involved in the furniture business? DOTTIE: He started with the oil business, then from the oil business he started -- he went to school to learn how to install burners, you know oil burners, 'cause he was selling the oil then he needed the burners. Then from that there he started to sell appliances, and from appliances he started to -- you know, furniture, you know, little by little, and then he would go to the furniture shows and started the [unintelligible - 01:00:55]. SPEAKER 1: Did he have [unintelligible - 01:00:58]. DOTTIE: No. SPEAKER 1: No. DOTTIE: People would say, "Oh yeah, he had [unintelligible - 01:01:02]." No. One time he went to the bank to borrow money because he didn't have -- he wanted to buy I think a car load of, I don't know, refrigerators or 27 something, and he went to borrow I want to say a thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact amount. And because he was not really established, they said no. And he -- the doctor that was friendly with us, he loaned him the money. SPEAKER 1: What was his name again? DOTTIE: The house. But she was -- I said why don't you use this. Oh I can do it quicker. SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I think sometimes, you know, by the time you rent [unintelligible - 01:01:46] you know. Anyway, we just had to replace the batteries, and now we're back in business. So you said -- you were talking about your father and the furniture business, how the doctor helped him, loaned him money. DOTTIE: Yes, and he paid him back, and then they remained… he was like a brother… they were the closest thing to a brother. I mean, he was Jewish, and -- but they really remained friends until they both passed away. SPEAKER 1: Really? DOTTIE: Yes. He was -- in fact, on Christmas day my father and I would… we would go to visit them, bring a gift to both of them, he and his wife, and we would have coffee or whatever on Christmas. We would do that Christmas morning, or was it before? I can't remember if it was Christmas morning or just before Christmas, because -- I mean, they just were you know… he never ever did, never! He had, you know, basically the same friends that he had all his life. [Unintelligible - 01:03:01] too. Where I have, you know, the same friends as we had since I was a kid, I don't -- you know, you acquire a few on the way, but basically the same people I've been involved with most of my life. Well, of course I never… I never moved out of the area, so… My sister one time said that if I was on welfare, I would still be a millionaire because of my friends. Yes, yes. So like I said feel I've been blessed in 28 that respect. Priest last night says how would I want to be remembered? I want to be remembered that I loved and I was loved. SPEAKER 1: Yes, that's… DOTTIE: Well, if you really want to make money you can make money. But I think friendship is more important than anything, because you can't buy that. 'Cause once the money is gone, the people that you bought are gone. You have money going up and you don't coming down and you have true friends; your friends are going to be there for you. Not really, no, I think that's an individual thing. I don't know, 'cause I -- first of all I think because my mother and father always entertained, I tend to still do that. I don't do it as much because my husband was the one that did the cooking and stuff, so not a lot of, you know, people coming into dinner and… SPEAKER 1: You and me. DOTTIE: I mean we would have brunches like, we'd invite half the, you know, the complex. I mean… SPEAKER 1: Did you live in Maine or was that… DOTTIE: We just had a summer -- I mean, it was the condo that we would go in, in the winter months, but not like going in the summer. We would still just go on the weekends. But I would take Saturday… I'd work Saturday and leave Saturday, and then I would take Monday and Tuesday off instead of taking a -- sometimes I would take a couple of weeks, but towards the end we just would take longer weekends [unintelligible - 01:05:21]. So we had it up until… I sold it -- it's going to be three years. We were together about 25 years but legally married about 12, I guess. Eighty-four, but he was just a -- like I said, like the people that we went last night to the funeral, they said we were just talking about Teddy Christmas time. He was the type that -- like I said, he would holler and scream, but that would be over within two seconds. And I mean, he just 29 [unintelligible - 01:06:00] go get him, give him a cup of coffee, get him a drink, do this. I think so. I'm not so much as business-minded, but personality wise I think he had a lot of my father's traits because they all, they both like people. SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible - 01:06:20] furniture store? DOTTIE: He was actually a leather [unintelligible - 01:06:25] he managed -- he was bartender and he managed it. It was at that -- right now it's where the weather vane is. It used to be called King's Corner, and he worked there for a good many -- but he looked after when my father passed away and I had to run the store so he would come in to help out, but not really work at it. But he helped out. SPEAKER 1: When did your father pass away? DOTTIE: 1984, the year I got married. SPEAKER 1: Oh. [Unintelligible - 01:06:54] DOTTIE: Yes, yes, yes. SPEAKER 1: What was that like? DOTTIE: That was not as enjoyable, because first of all I loved, I loved to wait on customers, and you know, sew and decorate. That was my forte. Than I had to worry about bills, I had to worry about hiring, I had to worry about firing, I had to worry, had to -- all the responsibilities that go with running a business, and it wasn't as fun. One time Teddy said I stopped doing that because it wasn't fun. I guess it comes to that point when you realize, 'cause I -- you know, sometimes it's "Oh, I hate going to work, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it." But you say that just to [unintelligible - 01:07:41]. Actually I enjoyed working with the customers, and even to this day if I'm out and they said, "Oh, I'm sorry you don't have the store anymore," or, "You know what? I still have the sofa that you sold me 20 years ago." So it's just a store, it was when it was time to close it. So I know what I 30 should have probably done, and I still have the building, which has been up for sale, really, for the last couple of years… of last year, but it's, you know, we should have done it two years ago. SPEAKER 1: So you were involved for so long in this store. How long did you work there about? DOTTIE: I got out at -- let's see I was 18, 19, 20… till I was about 58, so 20 to 58. SPEAKER 1: I imagine your customer base, did it change over time? DOTTIE: Believe it or not, if we started with the grandmother and father, then we got the daughter or the son, and then we got the son's kids, and so we're -- a lot of it was just the same generation. I mean, we got new customers; don't get me wrong. I think the biggest -- at one time we had Devon's, you know, Devon used to have soldiers, okay, so I said it was Fort Devon's. And I had a customer come in and said so and so sent me, and I says -- of course the name didn't hit a bell, and they says, "Oh yeah, they were in Germany." Excuse me? Yeah they said they knew we were coming here, and they said we'll need furniture, and they said to make sure they said you come see us. And we did we got a lot of word of mouth and had one customer that they would come in every week, and I would chat with them and they'd buy a chair or something small. I'd give them -- we always had coffee, we had coffee, so we'd offer my customers coffee. I mean, I would tell the girls or the people that were selling -- when they come in that door you treat them like they are coming into your home and bring me to them. So when a customer -- I would try to cultivate them. And so like this customer buys this enormous house, and now they need it furnished, and so now they also need draperies and… oh, my sister [unintelligible - 01:10:25] just had a flair for decorating. You are going to handle the drapes, you are going to -- we have this company that we 31 dealt with where, you know, on a small basis as far as if you came in and said I want some draperies, I said, "Okay, measure your walls and whatever," and we had a small company that we would deal with. So this was -- and when I tell you, this house, they called it the castle. I mean, it had -- it was unbelievable! Now she did all the draperies, and I sold them every room of furniture except I think they had already bought a dining room set, but everything else I did. Now, at the time -- this is over 20 years ago, thousand dollars, so that was a lot of money, but with the furniture, [unintelligible - 01:11:19] says, "Well, how are they going to pay for this?" I says, "I don't know." I just was going crazy. About two or three days later the lady walks in and she says, "Can we go somewhere?" "Yeah, we can go in my father's office," so she closed the door, and she goes boom-boom-boom, she whipped out $20,000 of cash. I almost had a heart attack. That was my biggest sale. I mean, one person. Did they have a complaint on anything? Nothing, except something I gave them -- the man says, "Oh, the top of the shelf is scratched." I said, "Oh, you didn't pay for that." Oh, okay. It was pebble stone base, and it was going to be [unintelligible - 01:12:07] going to put a statue on it. So I said well, I'm not going to charge you for this because it's got a few scratches on it. So he says everything's okay except, you know, the base of this is scratched. I said, "Well, you didn't pay for that." "Oh, okay. Thank you." SPEAKER 1: So how in the beginning of your involvement, how did customers pay? DOTTIE: How do they pay? On a weekly basis. They would come in, and they would -- I don't even know if we charged them interest. I guess then we started doing what we called a pre-payment plan, which was considered cash in 90 days, but it had to be broken into three payments. 32 And then we had the company that would buy the paper if, you know, rather than carry -- I forget the company we used. I don't know if it was… one of those companies. And then sometimes if it was a good customer that's been doing business they didn't want to go through that, then we would charge them the interest for the year, however long it took. And then we had customers that just paid weekly that came in for years and years and years. That was part of their, I mean, weekly… I had friends that would come in just to have coffee. I mean, they would have the day off, and they'd come in with their -- one friend had a grandmother that was -- she says, "Oh, let's go see Dottie. We'll have a cup of coffee." That like that Mrs. [unintelligible - 01:13:42], she's like, "Oh, let's go see Dottie. We'll have coffee with her." So I miss that part; I miss that closeness with the customers. Like I said, I treated my customers like they were my friends. Just because -- I did it mainly because it was easier to sell them, and then they kept coming back. And like I said, I enjoyed that part of it. Well, the trends went from outer out -- you know, they have the outer margin, and then it went to your country, which stayed in for until I almost closed, and then they had a lot of traditional, which was -- I remember one time a customer came in and said, "That sofa is down the street for $500 less," and I says, "I don't think… /AT/pa/mb/es
Part two of an interview with Julia Casey. Topics include: Food that was purchased and prepared when Julia was growing up. Formalities between the Italians in her neighborhood. How the children would play. The Roxbury neighborhood house that started a girls club and the types of activities they participated in. The nurses and doctors who would visit the neighborhood. Home remedies for sickness. How Julia and her husband met. How their marriage was received by their families. What it means to be Italian. Julia did not grow up in a religious community. What it was like to move to Fitchburg from Boston. The different expectations of boys and girls in Julia's family. Julia's children and their jobs. How speaking proper Italian has benefited Julia. ; 1 JULIA: In, in these little -- I mean, they still have the same candleholders. I've got them on my dining room table, but, but they didn't have -- I don't remember the candles. I remember these little wicks. I'm gonna ask my friend about that. And they would float on top, and you would think it would be kind of dangerous, wouldn't you? But I still remember these little candles they would keep bringing. Now, that was one of the customs, but they have special foods on the 19th of March. It was I think the Feast of St. Joseph, if I'm not mistaken. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, it is. Mm-hmm. JULIA: And the lady across the street would make that little Italian pasta they called orzo, and I think it was a type of barley. They would make the actual grain itself and the orzo pasta, O-R-Z-O—you can buy it in any market today—it was shaped like that. But they would make a dish from, I think, I think it might've been barley, and they made that on the Feast of St. Joseph. That was the custom where they came from. INTERVIEWER: Did they also make -- I don't remember what it's called -- but fried dough, little pizzas? JULIA: No, that was not, not common. I didn't know any -- no, and we didn't eat pizza, not like they do today. I know that my father, there was a barroom about a mile away from us, an Italian barroom in another Italian section, and that then made pizzas. And very, very seldom did I ever know of anyone who made pizza. You know, one of the ways that they did was they used to dip bread in tomato sauce, which is all pizza is, but I never actually knew families who made pizza. That didn't come into fashion until long after the war. INTERVIEWER: So living with all of these different people, no one really made pizzas? JULIA: No, no one made pizza that I knew of, you know.2 INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. JULIA: And nobody made lasagna. And raviolis, very seldom did anybody make raviolis. Why, I remember that in the [Piedmontese] family they would make these very fine Italian sausages with white wine, you know. Some of them made bread, but it was a problem because the bread man from the Italian, the big Italian bakeries in Boston, would come through the street. We -- they went out shopping but they went out mostly to buy different kinds of meat and specialties. But we had food then, clocks with fresh food, fish. The chicken man came, vegetable man came through the streets, and the women would just buy what they needed right on the street. On Saturdays they'd go shop; everybody went out with bags. They'd go into downtown Boston and buy special things that they, you know, couldn't get, but for the most part they went shopping once a week. They would go to their special stores to buy, you know, different kinds of spaghetti and pasta. They used to buy them in big boxes, some of the families, 10, 20-pound boxes of fine -- long, long spaghetti. And they didn't have the varieties that they have now, you know, but I mean, if they wanted salamis they'd have to go to the Italian delicatessens where they sold the different kinds of salami and everybody ate different kinds, you know. My father would go in and bring home these packages. The markets -- we went to the -- in the north, and with Petrini and Baldini, and they would slice the salami paper-thin and they'd weigh it out on gorgeous pieces of wax paper in beautiful, even rolls, every kind all rolled up. You know, he'd bring them home and we'd go crazy. Italian bread and salami, those are our idea of living, prosciutto, you know, salame crudo, salame cotto, [unintelligible - 00:05:11]. And they used to make -- my mother made lintels with a special, big liver sausage and other kinds of, 3 you know, pork sausage, and that was a dish that they had once in a while. So the food was very -- it was, whatever house you went into there was a different tradition. Every region had different… INTERVIEWER: Was there a lot of sharing? JULIA: No. I wouldn't say that, no. There was -- they maintained, really, a great deal of respect and formality. You know my mother lived with these families, 13, 18, 20 years, she would never think of going downstairs without, you know, knocking on the door and saying permesso when someone answered. You always said permesso before you entered. INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. JULIA: She -- and they referred to each other as signora. They didn't call each other by their first names for many, many, many years, you know. INTERVIEWER: Even with the… JULIA: Unless they were said, unless you were told, you know, "Call me Angelina," "Call me Celestina." They knew the first names, but they really observed quite a formality. INTERVIEWER: Is that among people even in the same region, from…? JULIA: No, if they were from the same region, you know, then they would call each other that, that way. But from another area, until they got to really know each other, quite a while, you know. They -- some of the southern Italians worked in stitching shops. We had a family who had a pants -- he was in manufactured pants, and various of his women relatives and men relatives were in downtown Boston, you know. Most of them did well; they were frugal people. Their children bought automobiles, very few of the originals, you know, immigrants, bought any. So we had a kind of a clear street for playing. That's why we were able to play jump rope and hoist the 4 green sail and red rover and hide and seek. We played all these games on the street. The girls who were a little bit older than we were, they'd come out of the laundries, and if we'd be playing double-dutch jump rope, they'd come and swing -- we're talking long clotheslines -- swinging long clotheslines in the street, double-dutch, you know. Now, I think only the black girls do it, very complicated. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, the cities. I think it's popular in the cities still. JULIA: Yeah. Well, now you have too many cars. You don't have any clear spaces to play things like that. The boys made -- what do they call them, I don't know, scooters out of roller skates of two by fours on orange crates [laughter] and go whizzing along the street with these homemade things, you know. INTERVIEWER: Did the girls ever do that? Do they ever borrow these scooters? JULIA: No, we were, we were not tomboys. As I said, our mothers kept an eye on us, and they would play stickball, the boys. We would play catch, among the girls. But -- and we belonged to a settlement house, a bunch of us did, and they took us to camp… INTERVIEWER: Was there any…? JULIA: In fact, I still have a picture of a group of us. INTERVIEWER: The settlement house, was there any…? JULIA: The Roxbury neighborhood house on Albany Street, which was there for, maybe, 50, 75 years. Its special work was to help the immigrants integrate into American ways of society, and they provided clubs. Somebody came to our street and started up a library, a girls' club, and as a result of that group -- and it was one of the Boston's Brahm-, a woman from the Boston Brahmin family who, you know, belonged to -- this was their way of doing social work, women that were brought up very well-educated in the Back Bay or Beacon Hill area of Boston, belonged to these old families 5 whose, many of whose ancestors had made their money on merchant ships, you know. And that was one of the works that they did. And they take to our street, and the street next to ours, and they started a girls' club. They would bring books, and we learned to do a little crafts, knitting, and then eventually, we joined the neighborhood house and they had a camp in Bennington, New Hampshire, to which we went, and they would take us to wealthy homes for once a year, say, for picnics out in the country. And then at the neighborhood house, we put on plays. I remember one time we went to Simmons College, and a group of us put on a play, Little Lord Fauntleroy. One of us had a green velvet costume, put it on for the students, and then we danced, and we talked about different things. And as I said, we did some crafts and they encouraged whatever they saw, for instance, they -- I liked classical music. I don't know why because, you know, I mean, in that generation very few people had pianos—but they did have phonographs, you know. We didn't. But somehow I was attracted to classical music and I was able to get tickets to the youth concerts at Symphony Hall through the neighborhood house. And it was wonderful, you know. In fact, the girls that grew up after us did the same thing. They belonged to the neighborhood house and had their own little group. INTERVIEWER: Now, is this a place that really catered to the Italians? JULIA: No, it catered to -- Roxbury was sort of in the area, there were a lot of Italians there, but it didn't cater to them especially. There were people, you know, from other groups and this -- the odd part was that our neighborhood was not connected to any other neighborhood. It was isolated; that's what made it so close. Many of the young people that grew up there married each other. That's one of the reasons that the families maintained contacts, you know. 6 A number of people that I knew married other people from the neighborhood, and so from one, you would hear the news of what's going on with others even though they lived in faraway suburbs through those family connections. INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. JULIA: But we didn't interact with other Italian neighborhoods at all. We had this industrial area that we had a big playground that the kids on my street didn't use very well, and it was right next to our elementary school. But our families would never let us go to these industrial areas in the afternoon or night; that's why we were confined to our streets. INTERVIEWER: And that's where you'd play. JULIA: Right. INTERVIEWER: So when you were part of the Roxbury neighborhood house, was that your first exposure, really, to other ethnic groups? JULIA: But we stayed together; the girls from my street stayed together in their own group, and we did not interact unless we were -- and we put on our own little plays. Oh, we put on a supper one night for the staff of the neighborhood house, the head of it. Dear God, what was her name? Her brother was a very, a world-famous Shakespearean actor. I can still see him now—tall and thin, with great refinement. These women were all college graduates. Some of them had gone to the Simmons School of Social Work. At that time that was a very important area of study. You know, at the house in Chicago, these women became -- well, it was called social workers but not the same way as they do in the Welfare Department. This was real social work. And the house was an offshoot of the settlement house movement that started with our house in Chicago. They had them all over the east, eastern part of the country, you know, so they'd seen all 7 different kinds of ethnic groups. But they were very refined women. They taught piano, they taught music, and they had a library. They got college girls to come in and help tutor students who wanted to be tutored. They provided many services. They went out into the neighborhoods. And they, along with our elementary school nurse, provided wonderful medical services for those neighborhoods. My sister, who was born two years after I was—I said she was my brother's twin—was very seriously brain-damaged, and the result of that was that, you know, my mother's life was pretty terrible for the -- until she died, she was a serious epileptic, at ten. INTERVIEWER: She was epileptic until she was ten? Is that it? JULIA: She died when she was eleven. INTERVIEWER: Old enough. JULIA: At the age of ten, when she was about ten or eleven, my mother found herself pregnant with my youngest sister. And the visiting nurses used to come to the street, whom I think, it might've been through the Metropolitan Insurance Company. They would come in their blue uniforms, and they would visit all these Italian women who had any need for any kind of medical service. If one of them was pregnant, she came and spoke to you and advised you how to take care of yourself. She did the prenatal work. You didn't go to the hospital or a doctor if she advised you, but she did notify the hospital of when the birth was expected. INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. JULIA: But she gave you, you know, information on good health and hygiene and what you needed to eat. Because the Italian women, they were naturals at this, except my mother, who had grown up in a family that was extremely reserved and she knew absolutely nothing when she came. You know, they didn't -- you grew up in Italian families in rural areas, then you, knew because they taught. 8 And, in fact, my mother even had a midwife, one of them had midwives who were… they were trained in folk medicine, you know. They weren't like the [unintelligible - 00:18:09]. That was why some of the births were pretty bad. INTERVIEWER: Oh. JULIA: But anyway, they would help each other by, you know, in that way, but they -- the visiting nurses and the school nurse. The school nurse, if she detected a problem with any student in the school, either from information by the teachers or -- we also had physical examinations, and doctors would come in once a year, and physically examine every child. She detected vision problems. If they detected anything, like they would catch phases of diabetes, they would catch all kinds of problems. The visiting nurse would immediately visit that child's family, and she would make the arrangements to have the child sent for examinations at Boston City Mass General, wherever there was specialists for whatever they saw, you went. Once a year you brought five cents, a bus would pull up to the school in relays, and everybody went to the dentist in Forsyth Clinic. For five cents, they did pulling and filling, and this is where the dentists were trained, so the student dentists would take care of you. INTERVIEWER: Do you feel that the settlement house then had changed your life in any way? JULIA: Oh, definitely. You know what? It performed wonderful services. In the first place it taught us, it taught -- besides the playing that we did on the street, it brought us into a little bit more of the American way, you know. It brought a little more cohesion, and we learned to do things that we couldn't have learned on our own. Although, on our street they used to put on, like, shows, so we'd dance in -- strictly amateur, and one of the mothers made crepe 9 paper costumes. She could run them up so rapidly, I could still remember this purple crepe dress that was [laughter] with ruffles and a [unintelligible - 00:20:43] here, a ruffles on the skirt, and I still keep in touch with her daughter. INTERVIEWER: Wow. JULIA: They were clever. This lady would go into the stores and see something in the window, a dress. And she'd fix it in her mind and come home and cut out a pattern out of newspapers from what she remembered, and she would produce dresses for her daughters. INTERVIEWER: So it exposed you more to an American way of life? JULIA: Yeah, it did. And you know, besides our old school teachers, they spoke beautiful English. INTERVIEWER: Were you going to school with mostly Italians? JULIA: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Only Italians, or…? JULIA: Well, I would say a lot. The Irish had more or less moved away from that section of Roxbury, even though our parish church was St. Patrick, and the Irish had moved well up beyond Dudley Street because they were by that time much more affluent. INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. But it sounds like the neighborhood that you grew up in was so harmonious. JULIA: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Did you ever feel any sense of conflict when you went to school or outside the confines of the neighborhood? JULIA: We did. We felt that, so there must've been a lot of what we used to refer to as American kids, who are probably mostly Irish descent. But we didn't have very -- we had hardly anything to do with them at all. There was one Irish family, the Kellys, and they went to parochial school, but actually they married into the Italian community. And that was the only Irish family I knew. INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm.10 JULIA: My father had a few Irish tenants who we didn't think too much of. Going to the Depression they would never pay their rents, you know, but then… INTERVIEWER: In that six-family house that your father owned, were there other relatives living in the house? JULIA: No. INTERVIEWER: No? JULIA: No. There were, you know, strange people who came. And during the Depression men sold wine, you know. In fact, even during Prohibition some of them did. We would find taxis coming into the street, and I don't know how people got, you know, the names of people who would sell the wine but if you had no money, or very little money, you made money any way you could, you know. INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. JULIA: So. INTERVIEWER: So what about the other families from different regions? Would you call them by regions? JULIA: They were very -- they were, yeah. INTERVIEWER: I heard… JULIA: Calabrese, Baresi, Sicilian, yeah. INTERVIEWER: But when you referred to them I heard you just mentioned a little while ago that… JULIA: Yeah, Piedmontese. We had about four or five Piedmontese family. And of course, their dialect was even different. And that's next to Lombardi, but see, their dialect takes from the [unintelligible - 00:23:56]. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. JULIA: Right. INTERVIEWER: And where does yours? JULIA: More, you know, we -- down to the east of Lombardi is the Venetian province, and then you go up into the Tyrol, which today 11 is bordered by Austria. So the northern Italians, they don't put final vowels on their words. They chop it off, you know. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. So I was -- I've been noticing your pretty green eyes. Where did you get those? JULIA: All Italians have their, you know, you'll -- there's a brown-eyed type, but you can find green-eyed Italians in Sicily. INTERVIEWER: Really? JULIA: Oh, yes. Hazel, you know. INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. JULIA: Grey from my mother and father. They didn't have brown eyes. Nobody in my family had brown eyes. INTERVIEWER: Hmm. Wandering in your neighborhood, was there a woman that people would go to for advice, or…? JULIA: On the next street there was a lady who apparently had been, you know -- there were many ways to educate people, have always have been. And some people were very wise. She was in America a lot longer than the other women. She had a big family with grown, with grown-up sons, so she was -- and she came from a family where she was told a great many things and learned many things. So yes, there were some women who knew about things, but since they all came from different regions they all knew their own customs, and they had different ways of treating, you know, headaches, or -- I remember my grandmother used to slice potatoes and put them inside wrapped, fold them into a cloth, and when somebody had a headache, my aunt did that, too. They would put these sacks of potatoes in this cloth; they would just tie the cloth and bath with them. I don't know why. They used to string garlic if they thought a child had worms, and a child would wear this string of garlic around his neck. And if you had a boil, my mother would cook linseed flower. They'd buy them in the drugstore, only in the Italian drugstore, and you would 12 make poultice—that was very common. Some people used bread and water, and you would have this thing on whatever bump you had that you wanted to [unintelligible - 00:26:47]. They were really strep infections, but they didn't know strep infections, you know. There were boils, and if you have a little infection in your finger or thumb, you'd wrap it up in bread and water with a bandage or poultice of some kind. Even the American doctors would recommend them. They'd tell you, you got -- check moisture and heat would cause these things to mature. INTERVIEWER: Did you notice that different regions…? JULIA: They would bring chamomile -- yes, Mrs. Mucci downstairs kept herbs, dried herbs, chamomile and what they referred to in America as mallow [unintelligible - 00:27:41] and I -- if that [unintelligible - 00:27:44] grew here, I had a plant one time. And they would buy these dried herbs at the Italian drugstores, and they would make teas out of them. You would drink them. If you had indigestion, the northern Italians would buy it in liquor stores. It was called Fernet, F-e-r-n-e-t. It's actually an [unintelligible - 00:28:10] in medicine containing a great deal of -- bitter, bitter! But many times you'd go visiting in, after you wake, sometimes before, you would get a tiny glass of Fernet. Branca – that was the trademark. It came in a green bottle. And it was co-, it was a digestive. It was -- because it was so bitter, it was considered to be good for your stomach. INTERVIEWER: So no matter what your age, you would get that? JULIA: Then we -- everybody had Belowski. INTERVIEWER: What's that? JULIA: May I give you either some hot tea or coffee? You must be exhausted. INTERVIEWER: No, I'm fine. I'm fine. It's not much longer. Thank you. JULIA: And get you as hot as broth, or as a broth.13 INTERVIEWER: No, I'm fine. Do you need something? JULIA: I get like this once in a while. But yes, I don't wanna move this thing. INTERVIEWER: I can take it off if you'd like. JULIA: I find the only thing is -- part of the [unintelligible - 00:29:15]. Five months ago he's a co-host by the senior -- high-styled program on FA-TV, so we call him the Mike Wallace… INTERVIEWER: And you've been married [unintelligible - 00:29:32] years? JULIA: [Unintelligible - 00:29:32], Linda. Linda! [Unintelligible - 00:29:35] HUSBAND: Oh, pardon my cold hand. JULIA: That's my husband, Phil. INTERVIEWER: Nice to meet you. HUSBAND: My pleasure. JULIA: In his museum of … in New… museum about neckties that I paid a fortune for. HUSBAND: Well, I sure got TV exposure today. JULIA: Yeah. He get to… who did you interview today? HUSBAND: I interviewed a very interesting 91-year old woodcarver. JULIA: Oh, my heavens. HUSBAND: Louis [Charpentier]. And then that was followed up by a group of Irish step dancers. And I didn't do anything on that, so they just dragged me from dancing, so all I could do was say, hello and goodbye. INTERVIEWER: Oh. HUSBAND: It was frustrating. JULIA: You know, Edcel Johnson wants you to let him know when that program is on now. HUSBAND: Oh, I'd bet they… JULIA: Teddy, too.14 HUSBAND: I bet -- all right. I bet they did that thing so I -- in my notebook there. INTERVIEWER: Was it a cable TV show? JULIA: Yes. It's at ATV. You know, the informational video… HUSBAND: It started innocently enough. I'm on the board for an organization called The Resources for the Elderly, and their primary function is to sponsor the Meals, Meals on Wheels and the Elderly Nutrition Program. Like they some -- it goes back about three, four years ago. It's been quite a while. They started this program—these are all volunteers and all seniors—it's called Senior Lifestyles. And as a TV show material that is supposedly of interest to the seniors, and it, it's partly information and partly entertainment. And so, as I say, I'm on the board for the Resources, and we were having a board meeting, and it just so happened that the woman who was then serving as host for the program for some time decided that that was enough for her, so they're looking for somebody to fill in as a host for the TV show. And one of the board members [woke] up and said, "Mr. Casey would be a good replacement." And somebody else said, "Yes, indeed. He would be great." JULIA: Oh, he loves women. HUSBAND: And I couldn't think of any reason why I couldn't or wouldn't do it, so before I knew it I had been drafted and I was serving as host to it. Then that's what I do. It's on once a month, and they have two half-hour segments. Usually last -- monthly only has one half-hour, but today we have two half-hour segments, and the first one was this Louis Charpentier. And my god, he was -- you know that guy we saw in the coffee shop? JULIA: I thought he was gonna be easy… HUSBAND: No, no, no. This is… JULIA: … interviewing famous carpenter. Oh, Louis Charpentier.15 HUSBAND: … this Louis, he is -- he claims to be 91 years old. JULIA: Oh, my heavens. INTERVIEWER: He looks wonderful. He does. JULIA: Did you see any of his work? INTERVIEWER: No. HUSBAND: I used to… JULIA: I think they have it at the library? HUSBAND: He used to be head of the plastics industry. And the plastics industry was an organization, apparently, that did work for all of the plastic shops in and around… JULIA: When you came with your ham sandwich a little mustardy. INTERVIEWER: I thought… JULIA: I thought you'd have sandwich. You've got to listen to me talk for four hours and have nothing. HUSBAND: Yeah. I'll have a ham sandwich. INTERVIEWER: Well, you have to get those though, because you said you had to wait… HUSBAND: Oh, that's all right. JULIA: I'm gonna call the lady and tell them you're gonna be a little late. HUSBAND: But anywho, this Louis is something else, and he was -- he started his woodcarving when he was only about two years old, apparently, while he had a carving that sold his home up to the farm up in -- well, back and around or back there, and there was the oxen that was plowing, there was his father, there was the house he lived in and his school, the whole bit. INTERVIEWER: So do you interview these people? HUSBAND: I interview them. I try to make intelligent conversation with them. JULIA: I have made intelligent conversations with them. HUSBAND: The thing that makes this fascinating is that I usually don't know until I arrived at the studio who is going to be the guest for the day. INTERVIEWER: Oh, that's difficult.16 HUSBAND: I have to -- I know it was… INTERVIEWER: Oh, Julia was just telling me about the tapes that you found in the [unintelligible - 00:34:30]. HUSBAND: Yes. INTERVIEWER: That's remarkable, especially because here I am two days later. JULIA: I know. INTERVIEWER: All about Italian dinner. JULIA: And on the other tape, what I said -- think it's a, seems to be a little illogical, I was wanting to say the least. In the other tape, you would have to guess who the family Christmas but then I'd read, since I wrote it all out, it's more logical, you know. It's more -- or less of a timely sequence. But I do give you the information I've given you about the broth. INTERVIEWER: Okay. JULIA: And… INTERVIEWER: It'll be interesting to make a… JULIA: Oh, yeah. I'm gonna make myself a sandwich if I can figure out how to open this slice of cheese. INTERVIEWER: Do you want some help? JULIA: Oh, I -- oh, here it is. Heavens! I thought. What's the matter with this? INTERVIEWER: How does your husband feel marrying an Italian? JULIA: It was an adjustment; let us put it that way. INTERVIEWER: Was it? JULIA: I met him… thank you for this. INTERVIEWER: Yes. HUSBAND: Tried one this morning. INTERVIEWER: Oh. So who made these? HUSBAND: The man I interviewed, Louis Charpentier. INTERVIEWER: Oh.17 JULIA: Oh, he gives you -- oh, I've seen him do that at the Historical Society where he teaches you how he got started. HUSBAND: Right. JULIA: And he tries to teach everybody that they can do the same thing. INTERVIEWER: Oh, so he was -- his work is just so good. Oh, he's so… HUSBAND: No, he used to work in plastic. And as I say, he works for -- he works in an organization that designed methods for making just about anything you wanted, buttons or, how do you say, [unintelligible - 00:36:18] or whatever it was called for… JULIA: I know he's just working now. He's in the library and… HUSBAND: No, no. He's retired. JULIA: Yeah. But where is his work? I know he started, he started on display somewhere. HUSBAND: Yes. It's in a home. He has it at home, because I asked him if it was all insured and he said that it was. JULIA: I don't know how… INTERVIEWER: So Phil, let me ask you, how did you feel marrying an Italian? HUSBAND: Oh, wow, it… JULIA: You should ask his mother. HUSBAND: No, we -- and now seriously, we had a problem. It's not because I married an Italian, no. It's just that my mother didn't particularly like Julia, unfortunately. I'm not sure what the root of her prejudice was. It might have been because of her heritage, or it might have been just because my mother didn't want me to get married at that point, although I was not exactly a teenager. I had come home from the war, and I was a book. But whatever reason or reasons my mother had she didn't actually… didn't actually -- she didn't oppose the marriage, but she didn't support it, and she didn't even show up for it. My father and my sister came. JULIA: Though she was my [unintelligible - 00:37:48], she cooked. She was great to the children.18 HUSBAND: Oh, yeah. That's right. She loved the, she loved her grandchildren. She was very -- and they had a great time. JULIA: She was very generous to me in many ways. HUSBAND: My son approved of Grandma's cooking, and they had a good time visiting her. And we all, every holiday, we make sure that there was a delegation that went to Grandma, though we tried and made a compromise. INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. Now, did you -- where did you grow up? HUSBAND: I grew up in Roxbury prior to the days when Roxbury had the… with the ethnic… JULIA: Now it is. HUSBAND: It is now. When I was -- I was there prior to that. INTERVIEWER: Thank you. JULIA: Lemon juice? INTERVIEWER: Thank you. HUSBAND: And by one of those strange coincidences, Julia lived the one part of Roxbury, I was in another. We had never laid eyes on each other before the war. Did she tell you about how…? INTERVIEWER: No. I don't know how you met. No. HUSBAND: Well, we met -- it was like something out of one of those [unintelligible - 00:39:12] that tells -- she had that series of how people tell how they -- I was in the Navy during World War II in an organization called the [CVs], and I was stationed overseas in New Guinea. I met her brother, who was in the combat engineers, and there was this [unintelligible - 00:39:37]. So I got to know him, and his platoon was involved in the invasion of the Philippines. They were moving out agents. So he said to me, he said, "Phil," he said, "we're going to be cut off from correspondence for a while. Would you do me a big favor and write to my mother and tell her that if you don't hear from me, not to worry, I'm all right?" So I said, "Sure, all right." And I did 19 that, I wrote to his mother, and his mother who was living in Roxbury, I sent a letter to Washington where my girlfriend was thankfully employed as a government girl. And I -- with instructions for her to answer this letter. So she answered the letter, and Julia and I started corresponding, and that's how we get to know each… JULIA: Fifteen months. HUSBAND: And then after the war, when I came home, I… JULIA: It was all over. HUSBAND: And then there… INTERVIEWER: What? What was all over? JULIA: It was all over. He was hooked. INTERVIEWER: Oh, he was flirting as soon as he saw you. HUSBAND: Then there was some kind of a breakdown in the romance, and we had separated. [Unintelligible - 00:41:00] and we get back together again and we could get married in 19… INTERVIEWER: How did her parents feel about her marrying an Irishman? HUSBAND: Oh, as far as I know… JULIA: Horrible. HUSBAND: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Oh, with him? JULIA: My father… HUSBAND: There was a point in time when her father didn't care who she marries and who would take her off his hands. INTERVIEWER: Oh. JULIA: I was going to [unintelligible - 00:41:24]. HUSBAND: Yeah. I was even supposed to get a bicycle, a motorcycle for marrying her. JULIA: "Philly, I give you motorcycle [unintelligible - 00:41:34]." HUSBAND: No, but she… JULIA: You better [unintelligible - 00:41:38]20 HUSBAND: Neither one of those gifts materialized so, anyhow. No, I liked her father and mother. And of course, I had -- I was very friendly with her brother and sister. And so, we had the wedding, and that was a [unintelligible - 00:41:57] together. INTERVIEWER: How was she different from the, let's say, Irish girls that you went to school with? HUSBAND: Oh, she was a different. -- I didn't actually – I didn't know that many girls when I was going to school because you have to remember that when I was going to school, this was in the days when the boys went to one school and the girls went to another. Boy's school was an English high school. JULIA: But in elementary school… HUSBAND: Elementary was all boys because of… JULIA: Oh, you did? HUSBAND: Yeah. That's -- I went to the all… JULIA: Oh, I didn't know that. HUSBAND: With the nuns [unintelligible - 00:42:34]. JULIA: Well, I was actually the first female person you ever met. HUSBAND: No, not exactly. I met… JULIA: You may have seen New Guinea. HUSBAND: You have to define, there, the word "met." Kind of -- you were the first female that I was—let's put it this way—that I little became involved with. JULIA: Well. No. That's enough. INTERVIEWER: Well, we're in all kinds of things today. JULIA: Are you gonna have a ham sandwich? HUSBAND: Yes. I'll have a ham sandwich. So what is this project here? INTERVIEWER: This is a project that's recording the experiences of -- by Italian-American family in the Fitchburg and Leominster area. HUSBAND: Oh, yes.21 INTERVIEWER: But we had seen Julia at a -- one of the Italian night, the films that Fitchburg State College had put on, and Julia started talking extensively after the movie, Big Night, I think it was called Big Night. HUSBAND: Yes. INTERVIEWER: And we realized it was someone that maybe we'd like to talk to because she seems to know so much about the culture. HUSBAND: Yeah. And she is the one member of her family that has -- that is interested in the [unintelligible - 00:43:57] of the family extensively. JULIA: I was also the first one born in this country of my family. INTERVIEWER: Your family. HUSBAND: She was born in this country, which makes her an Italian-American, but she maintained contact, through her mother, maintained contact with Italy. She knows how to speak Italian, including the dialects of northern Italy. And now she is in the process of learning how to speak… INTERVIEWER: Right. HUSBAND: She's starting again. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Now, were there any surprises though when you married…? JULIA: Yeah. Seven. INTERVIEWER: That's -- wow. Seven children, right. But the Italian culture, I'm wondering… HUSBAND: No, I didn't have any problem with that. I was very fond of her family. Wherever her family gathered then there was a party. And her family had always been most cordial to me. INTERVIEWER: What do your children consider themselves? HUSBAND: They consider -- when they think about it, they… you probably have to ask them how much they consider themselves to be Italian. JULIA: More than half. HUSBAND: Well, I don't know whether they really think about it.22 JULIA: They went to the parochial school in Dorchester, and their last name was Casey. So they fit right in. Even though there were a lot of Italians. And by this time, Dad is gone. You know, we're not immigrants anymore. Your father was a professional man who's a graduate of Boston College, and so that they didn't have to go through that. They… HUSBAND: I came up here; this is the first place I've ever been to where they couldn't spell Casey. They would actually went, "Case-, how do you spell that?' And I thought at first they were kidding me, because down in the Boston area there was a very large population of Irish-Americans. There's still a lot of Irish down there, some of them from Ireland itself, and some of them are there illegally. INTERVIEWER: And what traditions do you try to carry on in your family? JULIA: Well, the traditions are that they know that I'm intensely interested in the Italian part of the family. I have furniture, for instance. I have, you know, [unintelligible - 00:46:38] for years and other pieces that my mother gave me when she was… HUSBAND: They have -- girls have a lot of respect for Italian culture, and one of them had been over to Italy. Take your time. JULIA: This was an -- how did you get involved with this? INTERVIEWER: I'll call you all out when it's all right because… JULIA: Are we going to meet again? INTERVIEWER: I don't think so, unless you… when I leave, feel the need to talk about something else. JULIA: Are you -- do you need -- I would like to, if possible, because I had -- now, I have four appointments this afternoon, and I would like -- I was trying to figure out how I could get copies of these tapes. INTERVIEWER: I could have that done for you at Fitchburg State College. So I'll call you… JULIA: And you have more than one? INTERVIEWER: Probably. I'll call you next week…23 JULIA: All right. INTERVIEWER: Okay? Okay. So what does it mean to be Italian to you? JULIA: It doesn't, it doesn't mean that I have been all my life aware of the great contributions that the Italians have made. But I became more aware of them as I grew older, and it made a strong attachment to family. And as I said, I still have -- my close friends are still the kids that grew up, that I grew up with, they're still the people that I grew up with, even though we all live in different places. It means certain types of food. It means, especially to me, it means this age of almost 80, I am determined foreigner, and I have -- it means that whenever I meet anybody that is Italian, that speaks Italian -- to me there's quite a big difference between the northern and southern Italian. I've always been made of… INTERVIEWER: Tell me what you just said, always been aware of… JULIA: I've always been aware of the vast differences among the people from this one peninsula that juts out into the Mediterranean, that there is such a difference in everything about them—the food and the way they speak—and it's made me very, very aware of the differences that a language can develop into, almost different languages within a cohesive place, you know. We have this boot that goes down into the ocean split down the middle by this range of mountains, and yet every section you go to, because it was at one time a collection of city states—and somebody brought that up the other day in class, it was a collection of city states—and yet my mother's experiences and the way she spoke and lived was so different from everyone else's on my street. So being an Italian, to me, meant that I had to adjust to -- when I went to school I felt very out of it, because I started school in Lexington. My father bought a house in Lexington for a few years, and I had -- I just felt a complete foreigner because I spoke hardly any English myself since we were isolated in Lexington.24 But I -- after I came back to Boston, then I had to adjust and get used to all of the different -- the girls who came from different Italian families, all of them, were. They spoke differently, their parents spoke differently; they had all these different ways of doing things. And that adjustment was a wonderful experience for me. And it means -- now, I don't think so much of modern Italy. I feel that in some ways they've grown excessively. I've heard other people made this comment, too. I've read a couple of books that said the same thing, that they've become excessively materialistic. Certainly, you know, religion -- we were not, I will say another thing, we were not a religious community. The women -- the praying that was done, the observation of religion was private. Everybody didn't lead the street and go to church on Sunday. The young kids that were making their first communion, they had to go to church. We went to church in a group, but mothers and fathers for the most part didn't go near the church. The church was run by Irish priests; nobody understood the Italians, and we hardly ever saw a priest. And so it's very different from this situation here in Fitchburg where the Italians set up their own church on top of an Irish community that moved out, you know, the Irish community and church was St. Bernard's. The Italians, back 75 years ago, decided that long ago, that they wanted their own church, and they set it up, they found an Italian priest. And we were not -- women prayed on Sunday morning, sometimes you could look up at certain windows and a woman would be sitting there with an open book which was, obviously, a [unintelligible - 00:52:54] in Italian, and she would be reading her prayers. This is [unintelligible - 00:52:59]. They observed some of the saints' days, but it was not a community that went to church. Ever. INTERVIEWER: Now, what about making first communion and confirmation? Would you go into the north end?25 JULIA: No. Some of them did. INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. JULIA: A couple of the families sent their daughters into the north end to make -- but most of us that were the same age, there were, you know, about two or three or four at that time, then they would go to the parish church, you know, in a group, and that was also beyond the industrial area. So it was maybe a 15-minute, 20-minute walk, and we went because the nuns, where they have were training the kids in the catechism, we went to Sunday school. Then, because they didn't want us walking to that neighborhood, as we grew older, we started going to the Jesuit church, the Immaculate Concepcion in the south end, which was an enormous church but not a parish church. But then I belonged to the choir there; some of us joined the choir. And that was an all-American experience; there was no Italians. INTERVIEWER: So Fitchburg in 1968? JULIA: I cried all the time. I didn't -- I never wanted to leave Boston. You know, I did spend a very good experience, first, the college community… INTERVIEWER: Say that again? The college community? JULIA: The college community is a wonderful place. I've always been a reader. In that respect, the kind of reading that I did was quite different from what other girls on my street did, and I am unable to explain that. I am unable to explain the direction in which my own, which you might call intellectual growth. Well, I went to an all-girls high school, and I don't know why I was attracted to classical music and literature. And I mean, I practically lived at the public library. As a matter of fact it was his branch, too. His branch of the public library, he lived on the other side of it, but you know, until my brother met him in New Guinea and he wrote to my mother, I had never a clue that he was around.26 INTERVIEWER: So when you came to Fitchburg did you make any connections with Italian people? JULIA: Not at first. Not at first, because I was still taking care of the family. Later, then, as my children grew up and they met -- because we went to St. Camillus, and that is not an ethnic church, you know. So later -- actually, in the last 10 years, I would say, I… I've met 10, 20 youths through my children. My daughter married into a Fitchburg Italian. For a little while we joined the Sons of Italy. I joined the Virginia Eleanor Lodge, and I didn't keep it up, but you know, I've met a lot… INTERVIEWER: [Unintelligible - 00:56:16] speaking, what did your parents and the parents down street, what did they want for their children? JULIA: All they wanted was for them to grow up and to go to work. The girls were not encouraged to go to school. My sister, who, as I said, who came along 13 years after I did, was first college graduate on the street. She went to, she got… INTERVIEWER: Pick it up. You said… JULIA: My sister, Mary Louise, was the first girl to go to college in our entire neighborhood. INTERVIEWER: Now, how did that happen? JULIA: She was fairly smart in school, and she was in the class of 1952 at the same high school I had gone to in a girls' high school in Boston, and she got a teacher's scholarship. And she decided she wanted to be a nurse, and how she was scared, oh, instead of going into a hospital program… INTERVIEWER: This was in… JULIA: Back… out! Instead of going in to a three-year hospital program, somebody put it into her mind to go to Boston College, a four-year degree course. Actually she went. INTERVIEWER: Wow.27 JULIA: She went out of her work at Boston City, quite a bit of it, so she could live at home and the hospital was five minutes away. She took part of her affiliation there. INTERVIEWER: Now, what did your parents think of that since they really wanted you to go to work? JULIA: Well, they felt that we should go to work. They didn't, you know -- but when Louise came along they had been sufficiently Americanized, but nobody, nobody encouraged. They expected the girls would grow up, get jobs in factories, or if they went to high school, find a job in an office and then get married. INTERVIEWER: What about the boys? JULIA: The boys, none of them went to college either, although some of them were quite smart. And one family, the boys went to college on their own. They were a little bit older than the rest. And then they -- some of them got jobs in technical areas, like different labs and in MIT, and they would stop taking courses along the job training. But almost -- one young man, which is a surprise to everyone, we knew one boy from that street that went to college; he became an officer in the Navy. No one else in his family did. There were five or six children in the family, neither girls nor boys went to college, and he was a little older than I was, and he actually went on to law school. Why? I have no idea, because his parents never spoke a word of English. And he was Sicilian, you know, and yet he went. So when I said "yet he went," it sounds like a put-down, it really isn't. It's just that none of us were encouraged to go to college, nobody. My mother couldn't understand why I was constantly reading, but it was because, you know, I worked. I mean, I helped my father in the house, peeling just because they would whitewash them. I haven't done anything like that since I got married. I refuse to do it, because that six-family house took it out of all our hides. People would move out, 28 you'd have a terrible mess, you know, you not only have the problem of trying to collect miserable rents, but every time a new family moved in, me and my father be washing and cleaning and my mother and I went after, cleaned up after all of them, and it was a -- it was really the -- it wasn't until many years afterwards, and it wasn't too long before they died, that some of the older families that had owned houses themselves sold them, and some of them came to live in my father's house. And that was a good experience. They paid their rent and very respectful, which was a surprise, because in the beginning they have a… INTERVIEWER: Is it important for the Italians to have a clean house? JULIA: Some of them. Some of them wasn't, you know. INTERVIEWER: Anything else that you'd like to add? I've been here a long time now. [Laughter] JULIA: No, I think that I -- they all -- I wanna add this: that the older that I have gotten, the more I appreciate where I grew up, dirt street and all, the more I realized the goodness and the cleverness, the ability of people from other regions of Italy, the more I appreciate the beauty of that language and what, what is world's known about the Italian culture in general. And I think that my mother and father provided me with, if nothing else, an openness about accepting people from everywhere, you know. That I got from them. Well, we're very gregarious. I appreciated all the different types of humor they had, different cooking. So then since I've left my neighborhood, I feel like I fit in everywhere. The college community? No problem. The Italian community? No problem. Where am I? I feel that I fit in, and it definitely came from this upbringing. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Could your children say the same thing? They've been brought up some way different?29 JULIA: There is one, a teacher, Maria is a schoolteacher. Kath has always done office work, she's the only one that [unintelligible - 01:02:38] go to college, but there wasn't because she couldn't -- you know, he's in the fire department, he's an electrical engineer in Boston working on the big date. [Unintelligible - 01:02:51] American, an Irish girl from Fitchburg. My son, Steven, was working for the Waste Water Treatment Plant in Burke and was attending Fitchburg State. He had gone three years to Texas -- I remember my Louis, feeling that we cooked very differently from anybody he knew, and he thought it was strange, you know, that -- I thought it was strange that other people didn't cook all this stuff then [laughter]. But my Julian, who's the youngest, is a technical writer for Lotus for Boston College. Julian went to UMass, Cathy went -- enjoyed our lives here, we've gotten used to the Georgia life here, the ones I have done. INTERVIEWER: Okay. JULIA: I learned Spanish on the job. That was the other thing that the Italian did for me. I was assigned to the Department of Public Welfare after I took that six-month refresher course. And gradually, by taking in-service examinations, I went from clerk stenographer to sort of an administrative job, and I was in the Child Support Enforcement Unit. We had a great many women coming in from Puerto Rico, all of whom spoke Spanish, and many of them brought in interpreters. Well, after I listened for a while, I suddenly realized I understood what they were saying and, if I had enough courage, I could begin to speak the Spanish language. And as a result I did. And I used to be able to conduct the interviews in Spanish. I didn't need the interpreter, you know. So that was another thing that I got out of learning Italian. Now, the proper Italian is a great surprise to me. I don't know how I started that. I'm sure I'm the only one that grew up where I grew 30 up that speaks it, and it's -- I compare it to people learning to play the piano by ear. I was so accustomed to all these different dialects that gradually the proper Italian, especially when I went to Italy, even for short periods of time, and I began to listen—and my aunt used to listen to the radio, Italian programs on the radio—and somehow the language has come. I'm fluent, but I'm not grammatical perfectly. I have to feel my way through the grammar. But I'm fluent, I can say most things that I want to say in ordinary -- and I don't know why. I feel now that I know things about myself like everyone as you grow older, that I have a gift for languages, although the grammar was difficult for me. We were only allowed to take French. In junior high school, French was the only language that was offered, and I had a bad time with the grammar. But as I've grown older, I find I can -- I've been able to master the language. I can speak, and everybody understands me. Why? I don't know. INTERVIEWER: It's a gift? JULIA: You know, even my -- when I meet the occasional person that came into the office, all the workers that came in, the Spanish-speaking workers, they all used to laugh because [laughter] there I was, I could say what I wanted to say in Spanish, and they'd all make, you know, little conversation, and I'd always talk to them. Well it isn't everyone that gets to have an audience like that. [Laughter] INTERVIEWER: [Laughter] I enjoyed it. Thank you. JULIA: I'm gonna call my friends and tell them that I will be there. I'm working…/AT/jf/jc/es