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The present study documents a language educator's reflection on two transitions that mirror current curricular changes in undergraduate language programs in the United States. The first chronicles her personal pedagogical transformation from a general-purposes Spanish language professor and her adjustment to teaching as a visiting professor in a Spanish for Specific Purposes (SSP) language-learning environment at the United States Air Force Academy. The second reports the evolution over several decades of the Spanish language program at University of Alabama at Birmingham from a traditional general Spanish-language program to a multipurpose program. The study suggests that SSP and liberal arts values are not mutually exclusive, and it explores what Spanish for General Purposes (SGP) can learn from SSP. Spanish programs that find common ground and hybridize to respond to multiple demands of today's Spanish learners are likely to be the most successful in the future. ; To cite the digital version, add its Reference URL (found by following the link in the header above the digital file). ; A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 88 The Unexpected Spanish for Specific Purposes Professor: A Tale of Two Institutions Sheri Spaine Long United States Air Force Academy University of Alabama at Birmingham Abstract: The present study documents a language educator's reflection on two transitions that mirror current curricular changes in undergraduate language programs in the United States. The first chronicles her personal pedagogical transformation from a general-purposes Spanish language professor and her adjustment to teaching as a visiting professor in a Spanish for Specific Purposes (SSP) language-learning environment at the United States Air Force Academy. The second reports the evolution over several decades of the Spanish language program at University of Alabama at Birmingham from a traditional general Spanish-language program to a multipurpose program. The study suggests that SSP and liberal arts values are not mutually exclusive, and it explores what Spanish for General Purposes (SGP) can learn from SSP. Spanish programs that find common ground and hybridize to respond to multiple demands of today's Spanish learners are likely to be the most successful in the future. Keywords: language learning curriculum, liberal arts, medical Spanish, military language learning, Spanish for General Purposes (SGP), Spanish instruction, Spanish for Specific Purposes (SSP), United States Air Force Academy, University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB) Introduction This academic year, I dubbed myself the unexpected Spanish for Specific Purposes (SSP) professor because specialized career-focused instruction became part of my pedagogical repertoire. Working in a SSP language-learning environment has made me take stock of what mainstream language educators can gain from exposure to the philosophy and instructional techniques of languages for specific purposes. I am serving currently as Distinguished Visiting Professor of Spanish at the United States Air Force Academy. I am a permanent Professor of Spanish at the University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB). In this reflective paper, I chronicle two transitions. First, I share observations about my transition from general purposes language instruction to the more focused language-learning setting at the United States Air Force Academy. Language learning at the United States Air Force Academy exemplifies the definition of a Spanish for Specific Purposes (SSP) program because it is dedicated to the goal of educating future Air Force officer-leaders with a global perspective. Secondly, I narrate from an administrative/ administrator's point of view UAB's evolution from a traditional Spanish curriculum to a dual-purpose program that includes a SSP certificate. I conclude that both the United States Air Force Academy and UAB Spanish language programs provide unique insights into the curricular changes and challenges in language teaching that have emerged during the last several decades in higher education. My experiences in these respective undergraduate Spanish programs show that signature language curricula have been and can be developed to serve diverse missions of learners and institutions and that intellectual and practical needs simultaneously helped mold these A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 89 programs. The United States Air Force Academy and UAB Spanish language programs are traditional and nontraditional at the same time. I posit they will resemble our future hybridized Spanish language programs. For purposes of this paper, I understand hybridized to mean multipurpose programs that have SSP components and a liberal arts foundation. The subfield of SSP can be defined as a practice that gives language learners access to the Spanish that they need to accomplish their own academic or occupational goals (Sánchez-López, 2013). It is necessary to locate SSP within the domain of Second Language Acquisition (SLA) in order to recognize that SSP is not a departure from current theory or practices in foreign language education. The counterpoint to SSP is Spanish for General Purposes (SGP). SGP is a broad descriptor for the teaching and learning of Spanish in ways that can be exploratory in nature. It is language teaching and learning that is likely not to have a singular career focus. Along with the concept of language learning for cultural breadth, traditionally SGP has been ensconced within the notion of liberal arts education. After almost 20 years of teaching principally undergraduate SGP at UAB, I relocated to Colorado Springs to experience anew the teaching and learning of Spanish in a different context. The learning environment that I envisioned at the service academy would be focused on the specific Air Force mission within undergraduate higher education. By contrast, I am the product of a liberal arts education that was not singularly focused on a specific career. For the last several decades, I have taught students with a variety of goals, both professional and personal. The teaching and learning environment with which I am the most familiar is rooted in the model of a liberal education that has historically framed SGP programs across the United States over the last 75 years. Goals of the liberal arts education include such attributes as thinking critically, possessing broad analytical skills, learning how to learn, thinking independently, seeing all sides of an issue, communicating clearly (orally and in writing), exercising self-control for the sake of broader loyalties, showing self-assurance in leadership ability, and participating in and enjoying (cross-)cultural experience (Blaich, Bost, Chan, & Lynch, 2010). By reviewing some attributes commonly found in definitions of a liberal arts education, I highlight the cornerstone of numerous undergraduate programs in higher education. My goal is not to produce a comprehensive list of its characteristics. In fact, one finds variations in the definition of the liberal arts education tailored to suit institutional realities and needs. The elements that I emphasize in the present discussion are particular characteristics, such as analytical and critical thinking, leadership development, civic responsibility and cultural breadth, which are especially relevant to how these two Spanish language programs evolved at both the United States Air Force Academy and UAB. Although critical thinking may not be one of the characteristics that spring to mind within military education given the realities of obedience, discipline and hierarchy, critical thinking is an essential characteristic of military officers that must make decisions in complex situations. The teaching/learning of the ability to analyze critically is key in military service academies and in civilian institutions, such as UAB. UAB and arrived at the United States Air Force Academy in summer 2011. Because of the courses that I had been asked to design and teach, I knew that the United States Air Force Academy's curriculum was not about technical instruction as in Spanish for Military Purposes. In fact, my fall courses had mainstream course titles that one might find in any Spanish program: Literature and Film of Spain and Latin American Civilization and Culture. My military supervisors told me that I was invited here to bring a different perspective and pedagogy into the classroom. As my first semester unfolded, I set out to learn from diverse A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 90 pupils and faculty members and to absorb and adapt to the differences before me. The United States Air Force Academy's mission fits neatly on a sign that everyone reads upon entering the military installation: "Developing Leaders of Character." The United States Air Force Academy (2011) is an undergraduate institution, awarding the BS degree as part of its mission to inspire and develop officers with knowledge, character and discipline. Undergraduates are referred to as cadets, and this underscores both the military and academic focus of the learners. After a few weeks at the United States Air Force Academy, I realized that I had landed in a one-of-a-kind educational setting. The institution subscribes to and emphasizes many of the key core values that I associate with a liberal arts education while additionally providing technical training. As Pennington (2012) pointed out in her recent commentary in The Chronicle of Higher Education, we need to acknowledge that preparing for work and pursuing a liberal arts education are not mutually exclusive. Considering liberal arts principles and professional training as polar opposites is a deeply ingrained notion by many individuals in higher education and in society at large. This belief needs to change because of the type of complex preparation that today's students will need to flourish in the future. Below is the complete list of shared outcomes of the Unites States Air Force Academy. Even with a cursory examination, one finds intertwined traditional liberals arts concepts and elements associated with technical education for engineers, scientists and warriors: Shared United States Air Force Academy Outcomes (2011) Commission leaders of character who embody the Air Force core values. . . . . .committed to Societal, Professional, and Individual Responsibilities  Ethical Reasoning and Action  Respect for Human Dignity  Service to the Nation  Lifelong Development and Contributions  Intercultural Competence and Involvement . . .empowered by integrated Intellectual and Warrior Skills  Quantitative and Information Literacy  Oral and Written Communication  Critical Thinking  Decision Making  Stamina  Courage  Discipline  Teamwork . . .grounded in essential Knowledge of the Profession of Arms and the Human & Physical Worlds  Heritage and Application of Air, Space, and Cyberspace Power  National Security and Full Spectrum of Joint and Coalition Warfare A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 91  Civic, Cultural and International Environments  Ethics and the Foundations of Character  Principles of Science and the Scientific Method  Principles of Engineering and the Application of Technology Source: http://www.usafa.edu/df/usafaoutcomes.cfm?catname=Dean%20of%20Faculty Values such as critical thinking, ethics and ethical reasoning, respect for human dignity, lifelong development and contributions, intercultural competence, and oral and written communication are integral to a liberal arts education and are the foundation of cadet education. The first phrase that frames the entire list—"Commission leaders of character who embody the Air Force core values. . ."—is key to my contention that the United States Air Force Academy's type of SSP is the teaching and learning of languages in the broader context of leadership education. The direct relationship between what one associates with well-informed leaders and liberal arts values emphasizes the importance of nurturing future leaders (whether cadets or college students) that are civically and globally astute. Leadership development clearly underpins both liberal arts values and those of the United States Air Force Academy. Like many undergraduate institutions in the United States, Spanish is widely taught at the United States Air Force Academy. According to Diane K. Johnson, an institutional statistician, there are a total of more than 500 cadets (out of a total cadet enrollment of over 4,000) that are in Spanish classes (introductory through advanced) in spring semester 2012. There are also cadets enrolled in 7 other languages that are labeled strategic or enduring. Notably, there is no language major at the United States Air Force Academy. However, there is a Foreign Area Studies major. Also, cadets can declare a minor in a language. There were 327 cadets with minor in languages at the time of this spring semester 2012 snapshot. The specific mission statement of the United States Air Force Academy's Department of Foreign Languages is: "To develop leaders of character with a global perspective through world-class language and culture education." Language and culture are embedded in the concept of the kind of global perspective that a 21st-century leader must possess. From Washington DC to Wall Street, there is agreement that future leaders internationally—both military and civilian—need to be multilingual and culturally adept to be able to navigate and lead in the 21st century (Education for global leadership, 2006). According to Lt. Col. Western (2011), it is imperative that our military comprehend that maintaining world leadership and security requires a broad understanding of other languages, cultures and thought processes. Although the Department of Defense's report (2012) on "Sustaining United States Global Leadership: Priorities for 21st Century Defense" does not directly address language and cultural expertise, many of theses priorities rely on knowledge from military leaders with considerable language and cultural acumen. Historically, the language department has always had a dual purpose that has consisted of SSP focusing on developing future Air Force officers, while providing many elements of a liberal arts education. From the following list, you will see a sampling of the generic course titles. They are not a departure from what one might find at other institutions: Basic Spanish I & Basic Spanish II (Spanish 131–132), Intermediate Spanish A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 92 I & Intermediate Spanish II (Spanish 221–222), Advanced Spanish I & Advanced Spanish II (Spanish 321–322), Civilization and Culture (Spanish 365), Current Events in the Spanish-Speaking World (Spanish 371), Introduction to Peninsular Literature (Spanish 376), Introduction to Latin American Literature (Spanish 377), Advanced Spanish Readings (Spanish 491), and Special Topics (Spanish 495). The course titles do not offer clues as to how these classes might differ from the average civilian college or university classes with similar names. In my experience teaching and/or observing these classes, differences do stand out because language learners at the United States Air Force Academy focus on application of language as a skill combined with cultural and historical knowledge. The cadets also seek intellectual breadth through the analysis of multiple perspectives particularly found in intermediate- to upper-level Spanish language classes. In the first six months in residence at the United States Air Force Academy, I observed that cadets are more intellectually broad than I assumed at the outset. Cadets read about literature and culture, analyzed film, and even wrote poetry in Spanish with gusto. They do perform in the classroom with a defined career in mind. The focus on the military profession and leadership changes the daily routine in the language classroom. By emphasizing deliberate leadership and language teaching and/or learning opportunities, crosspollination enhances the classroom exper-ience and improves institutional learning outcomes. Form cannot be divorced from function in language learning, so the synthesis of leadership development and language/cultural learning occurs. Recent studies from interdisciplinary research with the neurosciences and education show that fusion between disciplines can provide effective pathways to learning (Coyle, Hood, & Marsh, 2010). Teaching Spanish at the United States Air Force Academy altered my preparations and delivery. Because of SSP, I adapted to differences that are administrative, operational, pedagogical, experiential and conceptual. First, I experienced the surface-level administrative transformations from SGP to the special brand of SSP at this institution. I learned about:  Classroom rituals that include military protocols, such as calling the class to attention in Spanish, inspecting students' regulation dress and upholding other classroom standards in the target language;  References to Air Force traditions and military rank in the target language;  And, lock down, active shooter and natural disaster drills that might happen during class time in the target language. Additionally, there were different details in course design that reshaped my pedagogical filter. During an examination of all Spanish language course syllabi at the United States Air Force Academy, I noticed that the communities standard from the 5Cs in the Standards for Foreign Language Learning (1999) is often replaced with a different C that stands for Careers. The focus on the professional use of Spanish is starkly emphasized through this substitution. On an operational level in the classroom, staying abreast of current events in the Spanish-speaking world and being able to interpret them—such as changes in government officials, political and economic transitions in the target culture—take on greater importance while teaching at the United States Air Force Academy. For example, when A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 93 learners know that they might be assigned to carry out tasks in any Latin American country in the future, the learners understandably pay more attention to geographical details, how economic conditions impact political situations, how longstanding historical realities affect the current mood, and so on. The language-learning environment carries with it a cachet of practical information, and it also supplies complex situations and problem-solving scenarios on which future Air Force decision makers can cut their teeth. Language practice includes creating a number of hypothetical SSP situations in which cadets participate in order to foreshadow their leadership roles, such as role-play opportunities that are relevant to Air Force operations. For example, cadets might be asked what they would do and say as a United States Air Attaché or an intelligence officer stationed in Latin America. On the conceptual level, I am currently organizing and creating a seminar that is titled War in the Arts, Literature and Film in Spain and Latin America. It is a themed-humanities seminar that offers a rich lexical environment and an opportunity to focus on the profession of war, ethics, conflict and peacekeeping in the context of film, art and print texts of the Spanish-speaking world. Considering, for example, the representation of the warrior in a literary work provides an opportunity to discuss ethics and strategies and to analyze the representation of leaders across cultures. At the United States Air Force Academy, I have participated in preparing cadets to go on semester-long exchanges to foreign military academies. Some of this is done through wayside teaching at our Spanish conversation table, emphasizing the type of current and relevant social, linguistic, and cultural information that a cadet might need to function abroad in a variety of contexts and represent the United States. One way to prepare for going abroad has been to encourage and mentor cadets to volunteer for selection to host visiting military dignitaries, such as ranking delegations from the Colombian and Mexican Air Force. To prepare cadets, instructors share with them tips about how to interact appropriately and to display leadership through social intelligence and knowledge of protocol in the target language and culture. As a follow up, debriefing after these events is essential to discuss perceptions and observations and to develop cross-cultural competence. Much like teaching and interacting with SGP students, there are immediate needs, and then, there is the important long-range goal of encouraging life-long learning in Spanish. In the context of the United States Air Force, there are programs that make this objective more concrete than what is generally experienced by students in civilian colleges and universities. To take advantage of what the Air Force has to offer, I have also learned about LEAP (Language Enabled Airman Program), which provides for structured life-long language learning for specific purposes in the Air Force. According to the Air Force Culture and Language Center ("Air force culture," 2012), LEAP is designed to sustain, enhance and utilize the existing language skills and talents of Airmen in the program. The stated goal of LEAP is to develop a core group of Airmen across specialties and careers possessing the capability to communicate in one or more foreign languages. To become a participant in LEAP, Airmen must already possess moderate to high levels of proficiency in a foreign language. Individuals that apply and are accepted into the LEAP program receive regular training both face to face and online in the target language as well as have immersion opportunities at intervals during their careers. Working to encourage and help cadets apply for LEAP is another SSP goal at the United States Air Force. A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 94 These are an overview of my unexpected SSP experiences at the Air Force Academy. My transformation from SGP to SSP started with learning and applying new vocabulary that focuses on cadets' professional needs. Later, I began to think of my learners as future leaders that will need to perform and apply knowledge to make judgments about the Spanish-speaking individuals and groups. This motivated me to reorganize courses and reconceive of them with a keener eye toward performance and to explore ways to get cadets to think beyond their immediate milieu. With the overlay of leadership development and military culture, this teaching experience has driven me to operate in a more interdisciplinary fashion than before. I experienced first hand a teaching and learning climate that offers a unique hybrid of liberal arts and technical education in a military context. Perhaps the best lesson that SSP teaches is to constantly question the relevance of what you are doing in the classroom: to whom is it relevant and for what purpose? Within the Department of Foreign Languages at the United States Air Force Academy, the SSP focus on career preparation in language instruction and the liberal arts connection with leadership evolved simultaneously. This dual focus of the curriculum contrasts the reality in most civilian language departments where there was one general focus and departments are being (or have been retrofitted) to include new curricula and/or tracks. Many civilian language departments are currently transitioning from SGP programs and integrating more SSP language options. In the late 1980s and on into the 1990s, Spanish for Business and Medical Spanish courses appeared. The integration of professional courses happened in response to societal needs (Doyle, 2010). The Department of Foreign Languages at the United States Air Force Academy offers a rare, fully integrated model of the curricular common ground of career-focused language learning with an underpinning of liberal arts breadth. Conversely, civilian language programs have transitioned to dual-purpose or multipurpose programs for different reasons. In many cases, motives for transitioning programs have been to maintain relevance and enrollments. The latter was clearly the case with the Spanish language program at UAB in the 1990s. This two-fold reality raises the palpable issue of how best to organize these dual-purpose programs from both a curricular and an administrative point of view. Undergraduate language departments and programs have to meet the needs of both their general and specific constituencies. There is a general consensus in the language discipline that multiple paths to the language major, as advocated by the Modern Language Association in the report "Foreign Languages and Higher Education: New Structures for a Changed World" (2007), will be a necessity for the future survival of undergraduate language programs. With curricular reform underway, how do traditional language programs best transition from general purposes programs to hybridized programs that also house languages for specific purposes? Another obvious driver of dual-purpose Spanish language programs is the limited support for language teaching and learning. As programs transform, we need to be mindful of the realities that face most undergraduate language programs: 1) limited financial resources to support language programs, 2) staffing limitations because of faculty back-ground and adaptability, 3) reward systems that favor faculty members who work in the more established subdisciplines in the language field, and 4) multifoci and/or shifting interests of undergraduate students. Because of these conditions, exploring ways that resources can be shared intentionally and constructively will be essential to benefit general A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 95 and specific purposes language programs at the same time. The UAB Spanish language program learned to share resources and evolved into a multipurpose program. The UAB Spanish language program transitioned from SGP to include SSP gradually over several decades. This transformation aligns the department with the institution's vision and mission, which is outlined below: The UAB Vision UAB's vision is to be an internationally renowned research university—a first choice for education and health care. The UAB Mission UAB's mission is to be a research university and academic health center that dis- covers, teaches and applies knowledge for the intellectual, cultural, social and eco- nomic benefit of Birmingham, the state and beyond. Source: http://www.uab.edu/plan/ Reflecting the mission and vision at UAB, these statements clearly present the dual role of the institution: it is both medical and educational. When I joined the faculty 20 years ago, we spoke of the medical side and the academic side of campus in a way that implied a scant relationship between the two. Therefore, the undergraduate curriculum in the language department in the early years of my appointment had no relationship with the health sciences. This separation slowly eroded over the years. When I was hired in 1992, the curriculum for the UAB undergraduate language major would best be described as traditional: language and literature. UAB students studied languages for a variety of reasons, ranging from enrichment to the fulfillment of the compulsory language requirement. We had a multiquarter language requirement that was rescinded in the mid-1990s as a result of the politics between the state's community colleges and the universities. Currently, UAB has no foreign language requirement. Almost 650 students were enrolled in Spanish in spring 2012 out of an undergraduate population of close to 12,000 students ("UAB student profile," 2011). Ironically, the lack of a language requirement in the undergraduate curriculum set the department on a path toward popularizing SSP. At that time, the UAB Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures began to turn its attention to providing courses that the students demanded. As a result in the mid-1990s, UAB offered its first medical Spanish classes for undergraduate students. From that time on, I became interested increasingly in SSP for reasons that had to do with the institution's human capital both faculty and student. Also from 2002–2009, I served as chairperson of the UAB Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures. I took an administrator's interest in growing and integrating a SSP program into the existing general Spanish program. The medical Spanish courses were a good match for the interests of our student body. Approximately 40% of the freshmen that enroll at UAB declare that they are on the premedicine track. Many students are attracted to our campus because UAB houses an internationally known School of Medicine, although many freshmen abandon the premedicine track for other health-related fields. A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 96 Student interest grew in professionally focused language courses and key faculty members invested in SSP as well. In 2001, our first applied linguist in Spanish was hired in the language department. She shared her vision of starting a SSP program by offering a few courses to appeal to pre-professionals. She became the director of the nascent SSP program. Over the years, the SSP program became so popular that it evolved into a more defined and elaborate SSP certificate program ("UAB Spanish for specific purposes program," 2012) that had 62 students enrolled in the program in spring 2012. It was the first undergraduate certificate program on the UAB campus. As the program grew, the SSP Director was successful in convincing existing junior faculty to take professional development seminars in SSP and develop additional SSP courses, such as Intermediate Spanish for the Professions, Advanced Business Spanish and Advanced Spanish for Health Professionals. In 2007, we hired a Spanish instructor to develop and expand the medical Spanish courses in the undergraduate curriculum under the umbrella of SSP. She began to collaborate with the Schools of Nursing, Medicine, and Dentistry to provide short courses to their graduate students. Over time, signs of curricular integration increased between the medical and academic sides of campus. Also, there was a confluence of external events in the state of Alabama and internal events on the UAB campus that occurred in the late 1990s and the first decade of the 21st century that promoted the success of the SSP program. Prior to the 2007 recession, a rapidly growing Spanish-speaking population in Alabama had health professionals in a reactive mode because they were not prepared to handle patients that spoke limited English ("Demographic profile of Hispanics in Alabama," 2012). In 2005, UAB hosted campus-wide events around its first freshmen discussion book The Spirit Catches you and you Fall Down: A Hmong Child, her American Doctors and the Collision of two Cultures by Ann Fadiman (1997). The book was widely read across campus, especially in the School of Medicine. Fadiman's volume chronicled Hmong (not Spanish) speakers. Nevertheless, the book captured the timely problem of the critical need for communication with the foreign born in the health professions. From that year on, the importance of cross-cultural communication became part of the UAB campus dialogue. Also around this time, UAB's prominent, grant-funded Minority Health and Research Center unofficially broadened its definition of minority to include Latinos. Meanwhile, within the UAB Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures we were able to offer our first scholarship award for a Spanish major on the premedicine track in 2003. Beginning in 2003, I recall anecdotally receiving periodic inquiries from ranking individuals in the School of Medicine that wanted to collaborate. Typically, they requested the assistance of Spanish-speaking faculty with informed-consent forms. There were repeated requests for help with interpretation until the UAB clinics developed protocols to deal with Spanish-language only patients. In January 2010, we piloted a short course in Spanish (Davidson & Long, 2012) that was offered as part of the medical school elective curriculum. In 2002, the staff of the language department informally observed a trend in the increase of undergraduate students who declared a double major in Spanish and Biology/Chemistry. I procured a modest donation from a local physician for the aforementioned scholarship. All of these events fueled the popularity of the UAB SSP program and clearly defined the need for it. The current SSP program and certificate houses a number of preprofessional courses that are not limited exclusively to SSP students. The full program description can A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 97 be viewed at http://www.uab.edu/languages/languages-programs/ssp. The number of general versus pre-professional students varies from course to course, but courses such as Spanish Translation and Interpretation tend to enroll students from both cohorts, whereas Spanish for the Health Professionals enrolls few general-purposes students. Of course, the faculty members have noticed over time that our student clientele had slowly changed: two very different types of students were sitting in the same classroom. Professionally focused Spanish students and general Spanish students enrolled in the some of the same courses. This presented new pedagogical challenges for our faculty members and raised the issue: how does one meet the needs of both groups (SSP and SGP) in the context of our institution's student body? To date, this matter has not been systematically dealt with in the UAB Spanish Division. Individual professors have developed strategies, like individualizing projects, and yet, other faculty members teach to one group to the exclusion of the other. The curricular changes discussed by the Modern Language Association have come about in many language departments, and they have been welcomed by some faculty members but not by all. Embracing the notion that the traditional liberal arts language learner can cohabitate with the interdisciplinary and/or career-focused language learner (as demonstrated at the United States Air Force Academy) is key. Highlighting the philo-sophical common ground rooted in a liberal arts education is what may be perceived by some individuals as strictly technical training may help ease the transition. The next phase will be to articulate relevant practices for educators and administrators, as well as shared values and outcomes, and to provide models that show transitional programs how to achieve what I would like to call 'constructive hybridity.' I define constructive hybridity as a positive and collective effort to sort out and integrate the best of traditional Spanish language programs with different SSP practices evidencing more focused professional goals. The next task is to define the 'shared canon' between the various tracks in any given Spanish program. Obviously, this is not a one-size-fits-all charge due to different student, societal and institutional needs, but there is foundational work to be done in order to come up with more consensuses. Given my administrative experiences as a faculty member at UAB and my teaching experience at the United States Air Force Academy, I have come to realize that both general and specific missions in Spanish-language learning are not mutually exclusive. In June 2011, I marched off to Colorado to teach and to learn. I have learned that there is a place for time-tested liberal arts values within SSP programs and that hybridized programs (liberal arts and SSP) can be successful and beneficial to the learner. As suggested by the United States Air Force Academy and UAB programs, future programs in Spanish-language instruction will need to focus on our common ground to serve multiple purposes. Thus, I return to the concept that I mentioned at the outset: it is time to think hybrid. Our future undergraduate language programs will have multiple tracks/purposes. This hybridization can be as positive and enriching for both faculty members and language learners as it has been for me during this phase of my career as a language educator. Returning to my own narrative as a committed, career Spanish professor, I have no doubt that, in the future, my newfound SSP instructional acumen and orientation will inform my future general purposes classes and improve them. A TALE OF TWO INSTITUTIONS Scholarship and Teaching on Languages for Specific Purposes (2013) 98 Disclaimer The views expressed in this paper are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the United States Air Force Academy, the United States Air Force, The Depart-ment of Defense or the United States Government. References Air force culture and language center. (2012, May). Retrieved from http://www.culture.af.mil/leap/index.aspx Blaich, C., Bost, A., Chan, E., & Lynch, R. (2010). Defining liberal arts education. Retrieved from http://www.liberalarts.wabash.edu/storage Coyle, D., Hood, P., & Marsh, D. (2010). Content and language integrated learning (p. 25). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Davidson, L., & Long, S. S. (2012). Medical Spanish for US medical students: A pilot case study. Dimension, 1–13. Retrieved from http://scolt.webnode.com/ Demographic profile of Hispanics in Alabama. (2012). Retrieved from http://www.pewhispanic.org/states/state/al/ Doyle, M. S. (2010). A responsive, integrative Spanish curriculum at UNC Charlotte. Hispania, 93(1), 80–84. Education for global leadership: The importance of international studies and foreign language education for US economic and national security. (2006). Washington, DC: Committee for Economic Development. Fadiman, A. (1997). The spirit catches you and you fall down: A Hmong child, her American doctors, and the collision of two cultures. NY: Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Foreign languages and higher education: new structures for a changed world. (2007) MLA ad hoc committee on foreign languages. Profession published by the Modern Language Association, 2007 (May), 1–11. Pennington, H. (2012, April 13). For student success, stop debating and start improving. The Chronicle of Higher Education, pp. A33–A34. Sánchez-López, L. (2013). Spanish for specific purposes. In C. Chapelle (Ed.), The Encyclopedia of Applied Linguistics. Oxford, UK: Wiley-Blackwell. Standards for foreign language learning in the 21st century. (1999) Lawrence, KS: National Standards in Foreign Language Education Project, Allen Press. Sustaining US global leadership: Priorities for 21st century defense. (2012) Washington DC: Department of Defense. UAB Spanish for specific purposes program. (2012). Retrieved from http://www.uab.edu/languages/ssp UAB Student profile. (2011). Retrieved from http://www.uab.edu/home/about/student-profile-accomplishments United States Air Force Academy curriculum handbook 2011–2012. (2011). USAF Academy, CO: Academy Board. Western, D. J. (2011). How to say 'national security' in 1,100 languages. Air & Space Power Journal, 48–61. Retrieved from http://www.airpower.au.af.mil

Helen Horne Far, June 5, 2014 ; The Weber State College Oral History Program was created in the early 1970s to "record and document, through personal reminiscences, the history, growth and development of Weber State College." Through interviews with administrators, faculty and students, the program's goal was to expand the documentary holdings on Weber State College and its predecessor entities. From 1970 to 1976, the program conducted some fifteen interviews, under the direction of, and generally conducted by Harold C. Bateman, an emeritus professor of history. In 1979, under the direction of archivist John Sillito, the program was reestablished and six interviews were conducted between 1979 and 1983, with additional interviews being conducted by members of the Weber State community. In 2013 the campus prepared to celebrate the 125th Anniversary of Weber State University in 2014. In order to document the student experience, interviews were conducted with Weber State College Alumni on an ongoing basis. ; The following is an oral history interview with Dr. Helen Horne Farr. It was conducted on June 5, 2014 by Jamie Weeks. In the interview, Helen discusses her time spent at Weber College as a student from 1941 to 1943 and then as an instructor in the nursing program from 1959 to 1987. ; 28p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Helen Horne Farr Interviewed by Jamie J. Weeks 5 June 2014 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Helen Horne Farr Interviewed by Jamie J. Weeks 5 June 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College Oral History Program was created in the early 1970s to "record and document, through personal reminiscences, the history, growth and development of Weber State College." Through interviews with administrators, faculty and students, the program's goal was to expand the documentary holdings on Weber State College and its predecessor entities. From 1970 to 1976, the program conducted some fifteen interviews, under the direction of, and generally conducted by Harold C. Bateman, an emeritus professor of history. In 1979, under the direction of archivist John Sillito, the program was reestablished and six interviews were conducted between 1979 and 1983, with additional interviews being conducted by members of the Weber State community. In 2013 the campus prepared to celebrate the 125th Anniversary of Weber State University in 2014. In order to document the student experience, interviews were conducted with Weber State College Alumni on an ongoing basis. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Farr, Helen Horne, an oral history by Jamie J. Weeks, 5 June 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Helen Horne Farr June 5, 2014 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Dr. Helen Horne Farr. It was conducted on June 5, 2014 by Jamie Weeks. In the interview, Helen discusses her time spent at Weber College as a student from 1941 to 1943 and then as an instructor in the nursing program from 1959 to 1987. JW: This is an oral history interview with Dr. Helen Horne Farr. It is being conducted on June 5, 2014 in her home in Ogden, Utah and the interviewer is Jamie Weeks. The subject of this interview is her time spent at Weber State College as a student from 1941 to 1943 and then as an instructor in the nursing program from 1959 to 1987. Also present is Stacie Gallagher our video technician. To begin with I'd like to ask you just about your early family life-when and where you were born and maybe a little background about your childhood. HF: I was born in my grandparent's home in Smithfield, Utah on August 12, 1923. My parents had another girl who was 21 months old when I was born. During my birth, mother hemorrhaged. The doctor was afraid that she would die and said that I was too little and wouldn't live anyway. He put me aside and took care of mother. My grandmother wisely picked me up, cleaned me and put me in a flannel lined shoebox in a coal stove oven and saved my life. I stayed in that shoebox for about six weeks and bonded very closely with my grandmother because of that. JW: Were you tiny? 1 HF: Yes. They said they measured me with two pounds of butter and that's how much they thought I weighed, but you know, farmers didn't know how much the butter really weighed, but I was a very tiny baby. Grandmother Toolson was wise enough to know to use an eyedropper to feed me. That's how I survived. JW: Oh my word, what a wonderful story. HF: Isn't that something that many years ago? 1923, that's almost a century ago. JW: Right. HF: My father was the principal of Burley High School. They had to leave for him to start school in September, so they left me with my grandparents until Christmas time. My father had an opportunity to coach at Midvale Junior High School, so we moved to Midvale. During the depression when I was in the 5th grade, the Jordon School District ran out of money early in the spring. We returned to Smithfield and stayed with my grandparents. Elaine and I enrolled in school there. I enjoyed the classes and meeting new friends. Then my father had the opportunity to move to Ogden to teach math and coach at Washington Jr. High School. That was about two days before my twelfth birthday. I'll never forget that birthday because we were very poor. It took all our money for us to move. For my breakfast that morning there was a grapefruit on the plate and my dad kept saying, "Why don't you pick up that plate, there's something wrong with it." I didn't know why he wanted me to do that, but when I picked it up there was a whole dollar bill. I thought I was the richest girl in the world. So, that was a birthday that I'll always remember. 2 Elaine and I enrolled at Lewis Junior High School. At Christmas time, the principal met with my parents to suggest that my sister and I could skip a grade. My parents decided against us moving up a grade. They bought a home at 3297 Adams Ave. and Elaine and I transferred to Washington Junior High School. I served as student body vice president in the 10th grade. We were the fourth class to graduate from the beautiful new "Million Dollar" Ogden High School. The student body was over 1500 junior and senior students. I was a member of the Student Council and the Pep Club. Those were two special years. We had a great time at Ogden High and I thought that was the best school in the world. From there I went on to Weber Junior College located at 25th and Jefferson Ave. JW: So you started with Weber in— HF: The fall of 1941 (Appendix A). JW: The reason I'm asking that is because we're missing yearbooks from 1943 to 1946, so I just wondered what happened. HF: I really don't know—World War II may have made supplies unavailable. In 1941 when we enrolled, Weber was a wonderful school. I don't know whether people have told you how that campus was organized, but it had just three buildings-the beautiful Moench Building, the Gym Building and one classroom building. West of that was President Dixon's home where his family lived. The Moench Building was just a beautiful building; it had a huge auditorium in it. We had all of our assemblies there. This is something that probably will never happen again, but every Tuesday we had an assembly at eleven 3 o'clock. The student body was filled with talent. The girls' and boys' clubs took turns presenting the programs. We enjoyed all of the singing, dancing and plays. We closed the assembly by singing "Purple and White" with J. Clair Anderson at the organ. I know "Purple and White" perfectly, and now very few students, graduates and faculty can sing this song. The student body was mostly Ogden High graduates, with some Davis County and Box Elder graduates. We had two or three men that came from Hawaii to be on the football team, but they didn't stay. They just kind of moved in and out. We had a wonderful student body, and became very close friends. It wasn't a very big student body. I don't know how many there were, but it couldn't be too large because our class sizes were only about fifteen or twenty in a room. Those first two years, Dr. Dixon was just so nice to us. It's like he said, "We were just the Weber Family". He knew most of us by name. JW: It was such a different time than it is now with so many clubs, sororities and fraternities, and they were all very active. HF: Oh yes, and very competitive. I don't know how it was after I'd left, I guess it was pretty much the same, but La Dianaeda and Otyokwa were always trying to compete and so were Phoenix and Excelsior. It was just a different type of student body than there is now. JW: You knew everyone attending the school? 4 HF: I practically knew everybody. That freshman year I was elected Freshman Representative for the Associated Women Students. I also joined La Dianaeda, which was a social club, and the Whip Club (Appendix B). We had a good time. We really enjoyed that wonderful first year. During that year, in December 1941, Pearl Harbor happened. That didn't change too much of our lifestyle, we all felt badly about it, but we all were in school and nothing really seemed to change with us. The boys just stayed in school. Then the next year I was elected President of Associated Women Students and the boys stayed enrolled. However, in April of that year, a month before graduation, most of them were drafted except about five boys who had health problems then. That was a very sad time. We put flags on all the boys' lockers the next day. That night they all had to go on the train to wherever they had to go, so we all went down to the train station to tell them goodbye. JW: It would be so life changing, to have all the boys leave at the same time. HF: When we graduated it was just those few boys and all of us girls. JW: Wow, so this was April of 1943 when they were all drafted? HF: Yes. HF: Those were all good friends. The Dixon family was very supportive and at that time we were all the "Weber Family." President Dixon always said, "The Weber Family will be doing this, the Weber Family will be doing that." He was just a good leader for us. Most of us didn't have much money. We had Shoeless Shuffle dances when we couldn't get shoes during the war. We just had a lot of fun. It was great. At the end of fall quarter in 5 1943, a friend of mine, Marjorie McKee, and I thought about becoming nurses. We went to the Thomas D. Dee Memorial Hospital to inquire about it and submitted an application. Both of us were admitted to the school nursing for the winter quarter. That spring during our final assembly, I received a leadership award and a scholarship for nursing from the Alpha Chi Omega sorority. So that really did help my family. JW: In the Signpost it says you were also on the honor roll. You must have been a good student too (Appendix C). HF: I have to say that I had to be for my dad. Since he was in education and he was very well-liked and respected in Ogden. If I'd done anything wrong it would have been terrible for him. I was very close to him, so I just was miss goody-two-shoes. JW: How many siblings did you have? HF: Just the one sister, Elaine, who was older than I. Those were fun days at Weber, they really were. JW: Who were some of your favorite professors? HF: I remember Lydia Tanner taught cooking. She could make a pound of hamburger in a great big pot that would serve the whole student body. I never saw a pound of hamburger go so far. We, as students, had to make that soup, but she'd tell us how to chop things up and season the food. She was a wonderful instructor. One of the things that I remember is that you could never leave anything in the sink. If you have a utensil that you used, you washed it and dried it and put it away. 6 Besides her, I had Sheldon Hayes for Biology and Walter Neville for Sociology. There was Marian Read who taught English, Ernest Miner taught science. Other faculty were Thatcher Allred—speech and drama, Roland Perry—music and Whitney Young— science. Reed Swenson and Merlin Stevenson were coaches. Clarisse Hall was the registrar at that time, and the next year she became the Dean of Students. Did I tell you Leland Monson taught Shakespeare? JW: No, but I do know who he was. HF: He was wonderful. We really had a wonderful faculty. I just don't know how we could have been so lucky to have such a good teachers, but we did. We all liked our teachers, we didn't skip classes, we stayed in class and I think everybody who was there our second year graduated. JW: That is a big accomplishment; to keep all of the students in school and have them all obtain a degree. HF: Our tuition was practically nothing and I remember people saying a few years before that they would bring produce from their garden and eggs for tuition. JW: Yes, they paid in-kind with eggs, produce, and livestock. HF: We paid, but it wasn't very much, I know. My whole expenses going to Weber the entire two years plus the few classes we had in nursing while we were still at Weber were less than $300.00 dollars. Now you can't even go one quarter for that amount. JW: No, you cannot. 7 HF: We had a wonderful student body though. They were just really, really nice people. JW: You graduated and then you were admitted into the Dee School of Nursing? HF: When we applied they immediately admitted us for winter quarter. At that time, The School of Nursing had classes two times a year - a January class and a June class. We went right into the January class, but we were allowed to stay home. We took the science classes that were required in nursing at Weber and other required courses. We lived at home for the two quarters and graduated from Weber in 1943 (Appendix D). JW: From there did you move to the Dee School? HF: Yes, then we had to move to the Dee School of Nursing on 24th and Harrison there. HF: The Dee student body president always had the top north room. First year students lived on the basement floor. On the main floor were the second year students and on the third floor were the seniors. JW: How long did it take you to go through the nursing program? HF: Three years. The total cost was $199.50 for tuition, books and uniforms. JW: So, you went through the nursing program and then did you immediately start working at the Dee Hospital? HF: No, I didn't. When I finished nursing school in 1946, I wanted to continue college and earn a BS degree. I inquired at the University of Utah and learned my credits from Weber were transferrable. I needed twenty-two more credit hours to graduate. I couldn't 8 enroll in the University of Utah that winter quarter because it was too late by the time we had graduated from nursing school. We were so afraid of state boards and we studied every day prior to spring quarter when I attended at the U of U. I don't know how they let me do this because I don't think most universities would do that now, but I was permitted to take twenty-two credit hours. That was a lot—fifteen hours was usually the regular number of hours per quarter. So, I did that and graduated from the University. I was elected into Phi Kappa Phi and graduated with honors. I really enjoyed the University that spring quarter, but I didn't get much opportunity to meet very many other students. I took an astronomy class because that was one of the sciences I needed. I sat by a bunch of celestial navigators who had just been discharged from the war. They probably knew a lot more about it than our instructor did. They coached me. I never could have passed that class if they hadn't helped me. That was a nice class, I can still remember that. I also took creative writing, home decorating and an abnormal psychology class. JW: At the University of Utah? HF: Yes. JW: Where did you get your bachelor's degree from? HF: I got my bachelor's degree in education in the spring of 1946 from the University of Utah and then I became the night supervisor at the Dee Hospital. That was my first job. My land, I was supervising people whom I had lived with in the nursing school for all those 9 years. But it was a nice experience. I didn't like night duty and soon became the Head Nurse on the Pediatric Unit. I was living with a family near the hospital when I met my husband who came to take some pictures of the family and their new baby. He had just been discharged from the Navy. When he was taking pictures, I remember I was baking some cookies and the cookies burned. It was an awful smell, but he said, "Well, they're just chocolate now." I can't remember what they were. My roommate was a former classmate in nursing school. The next day he called Max and said, "I'd like to have a date with that little blonde." Well, Max thought it was Louise because she was blonde also. So, Louise and I went down and we bought a pretty dress for her and some shoes. That's when you wore hats and gloves. She was all dolled up when he came pick her up. He had a big bouquet of flowers and a box of candy for her before they went out. The next morning she said, "That was the craziest date; all he wanted to do was talk about you." I said, "He just needed to have something to talk about." The next day he called Max and said, "You gave me the wrong girl." So then, Max said, 'Well, Helen's not dating until her boyfriend gets home." Max told him I had this ring that I needed to give back but that didn't deter my husband one bit. I returned the engagement ring and dated several boys including my husband. He kept coming when we were trying to study for state boards, I wanted to crown him. I didn't think that much about him at first. Then, I guess he wore me down. We took state boards in the early summer and passed. My husband and I both liked football and that following Thanksgiving we went to a football game at the U of U. He showed me a 10 diamond ring. It was way too—just too gaudy. I didn't want it, I just wanted something simple. So, I said, "I don't want to get married. I want to be an airline stewardess." That was my whole plan was to be an airline stewardess. JW: Instead of nursing? HF: You had to be an RN to be a stewardess at that time. At Christmas time he took me down to the airport to apply to be a stewardess. I found out that after the war they only wanted tall stewardesses and I wasn't tall enough for the larger planes. That Christmas, my husband gave me a silk pant set and some nylon stockings, which you could never get during the war, and a beautiful poinsettia. It was the tallest poinsettia I've ever seen. My folks had moved out to North Ogden then and he wanted me to look at this poinsettia and I was just getting tired of it by the afternoon. I said, "Let's go visit Helen and Max and some other people." "Oh, just look at that poinsettia." I just thought, "I don't want to see that poinsettia one more minute." I finally stood up and then looked down and there was my diamond ring on the branch of that tree. So, I thought, I really do love you. Then I took the ring. We were married the next year in 1947. My husband did crazy things like that. One Christmas he put a watch on a gold ornament and I didn't see it until I was taking the tree down. He was always doing things like that. JW: It sounds like he was very romantic. HF: Oh, he liked to make surprises. He really did. Anyway, then we were married and I didn't work for a while because I had my five children in eight years. So, I was a busy mother. 11 JW: Yes you were. How many grandkids do you have? HF: Oh goodness. I have fourteen grandchildren and fourteen great-grandchildren. JW: And five children keep you very, very busy, right? HF: Our first four children are boys; Paul, Craig, Brent and Randall. Carol, our daughter, was the fifth. They all had chores, not always completed, and an Indian girl from the Intermountain Indian School in Brigham City helped me each Saturday. I spent Sundays using the Ironrite all afternoon. I had little time for myself. I am very proud that all of our children are college graduates. Two earned doctorate degrees. Paul became an attorney and Craig is a board certified toxicologist. Brent is an industrial engineer with Master's degree in Business Administration and Randall earned his degree in Political Science. Carol, a single mother, returned to Weber, graduated in nursing and earned a BS degree. JW: Let's go back. You stayed home with five children and then when did you decide to go back to work? HF: I went back to work as a part time supervisor at the Dee Hospital. In 1953 Ruth Stewart (now Swenson) called and asked me if I would be willing to teach in the new nursing program at Weber. I told her that I had three small children and was too busy. The next spring, I did some special duty nursing. We could pick and choose the days we were able to work. I did that for a while and then St. Benedict's Hospital started their three-year nursing program and they had a nursery for the nurses' children. I taught there from 1956 until 1958. 12 Leola Davidson happened to see me during the summer of 1959 and she said, "Why don't you come to Weber to teach?" So, I guess she told Ruth Swenson. Ruth called me and asked if I would be willing to come here and teach. That was in 1959 when I started at Weber. Geraldine Hansen, a recent graduate of the Weber associate degree nursing program, had earned a BS degree from the U of U and was also hired. By that time, Weber College had moved to the new campus on Harrison Blvd. There were three small, one story buildings and a Quonset hut. Administration and registration were in building I; the printing department; social sciences and English were in building II; and Natural Science and nursing were in building III. The Quonset hut was known as the TUB, temporary Union Building. The nursing program was initiated when Ruth Swenson was a friend of Mildred Montag while attending Columbia University. In 1951, Mildred was in a doctoral program and chose as her thesis hypothesis that "It might be possible to educate students in a junior or community college to perform those functions commonly associated with the registered nurse". Weber Junior college was one of seven schools west of the Mississippi chosen to offer the two year nursing program. Ruth Swenson was appointed director. She and Marjorie Somers developed the program. In 1953, thirty-six women enrolled. They all passed state boards, as have most of the students throughout the years. JW: I read that you were the fourth woman to be hired as faculty at Weber State. HF: That's true. Loy Doss, LaPrele Neville and Leola Davidson were on the faculty. In the early 1960's, the Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN) program of thirty students merged with the Associate Degree program of sixty students. This made a total of ninety freshmen 13 students. Each year there were over 700 applicants. We felt we had the best students on campus. They were all high achievers. This required additional faculty. Karen Beaver, Sonia Parker, Norma Hansen, Ruth Brown and Arlene Stein and several clinical faculty were hired. I loved the students and looked forward toward each fall to greeting and orienting them into the nursing program. About ten years after the two year program began I went to a National Nurses Association conference in San Francisco. This was in the mid-sixties. I think there were three delegates from Utah. You had so many delegates for how the membership was in that state. Anyway, it was a large group of women and I don't remember any men being there. We didn't have very many male students. The whole week was almost all dedicated to "what are we going to do with these associate degree nurses who are passing state boards". Here we had three hard years of hospital school nursing and four years in the collegiate program, now these two year graduates think they can do anything. The Weber students were actually called the "Weber Wonders" when they first started. The delegates discussed what they could do and what they couldn't do and they even said, "You're a 'Weber Wonder'," to them when they first graduated. So it was a different world then. It's amazing, during that convention, the whole time was spent on trying to figure you how we could resolve this. They finally voted and passed a resolution to the National League of Nursing to write a separate test for these associate degree nursing graduates. They believed the two year nurses could be technical nurses or associate degree nurses or some other label, but they should not be RN's because 14 they just didn't have enough education or nursing experience. Well, they proposed that to the League of Nursing and the League was so busy trying to accredit new schools of nursing that they never did write another test. So it went on for a few years and that was it. The two year program stayed and they're doing well. Now Weber has branched out to all these different campuses. It's wonderful what they've done. In 1969, Ruth Swenson passed away. I was always sorry that she was never promoted to Full Professor. Leola Davidson became the department chair. She was childless and able to devote a great deal of time to nursing. She also assisted the part time Dean, Reed Stringham, a dentist who was on campus three days a week. The last day of Spring quarter 1972, Leola announced Gerry Hansen would be her assistant and assume the role of department chair. JW: Interesting. HF: I can remember that whole week there was so much bitterness and so much animosity. I'm glad that it worked out like it did because we do have some very good nurses that graduated from our program. They've become leaders in nursing and done well. JW: The school newspaper states, "Making her the first instructor in the nursing program and the fourth woman on campus to be named a professor." HF: Yes. That's right. I was the fourth woman on campus to ever be named professor. Isn't that amazing? I didn't realize that at the time how amazing that was because it was difficult to get promoted since we didn't have a nursing doctoral program. In 1977 less than 1% of nurses in the country had earned doctorates in other fields. If you had a 15 master's degree you thought you had really done well. Most of the nurses were diploma graduates from the hospitals. Those of us with a BS degree thought we were sitting pretty good. We found out, when we became college faculty, advanced degrees were very necessary. Committees had very tight criteria for tenure and promotion. You had to have those degrees before you could be advanced. I was very lucky to get that professorship. It's probably because I was very active on campus with other committees and had excellent student evaluations. I didn't receive my doctorate degree until after I was made a full professor. JW: I'm just trying to get the timeline right. You came to work at Weber and started as an instructor in 1959 and then in 1969 you received your master's degree. Were you working in Ogden and driving down to the University of Utah in Salt Lake? HF: Yes, I was working full-time in Ogden with five children. JW: This is what I couldn't believe because I kept thinking, "She's working and trying to get another degree and has this large family." HF: I enrolled in night school. After one quarter in graduate school, one of the professors, Dr. Cecil Samuelson, offered me a stipend in rehabilitation, which I really appreciated. I had some wonderful professors; I just can't tell you how excellent they were and I got through it somehow. I received my MS degree in 1969 and was promoted to Professor in 1977. During those years, I was very active in the Utah Nurses Association and held every office in District #2. There were about 1800 members in the state association and it was a total surprise to be nominated as Utah Nurse of the Year in 1976. One of the 16 other nominees was Dean of the School of Nursing at the University of Utah and had a doctoral degree. When I received the award, I was overwhelmed. JW: Let's talk about that really quickly and then we will go back. In 1976, you then started a doctorate program at BYU? HF: There were six of us. Leola Davidson, Ruth Brown, Karen Beaver, Geri Hanson and I were from Weber and Jean Law was from McKay Dee Hospital. There were six of us that were selected. We carpooled every day all the way to Provo and then in the summer we had to be on campus, so my husband and I went down and found two apartments and we thought three in each apartment would be fine. Leola Davison, Ruth Brown and I shared an apartment. You know that doctoral program was fun. Well, let me tell you what, Leola smoked all the time. Of course BYU has very strict religious rules. This doctoral program was started in 1976 with seventy-six people in the program from Idaho, Colorado, California and Utah. One time, the BYU president, Dallin H. Oaks, called us all into a meeting and said, "We have heard that several of you are having cocktails before dinner. If you choose to do this, you'll have to leave the University. You have to abide by the rules." Well, Leola was smoking like a trooper and I'd bring my clothes home and my husband would smell my clothes and he'd say, "These just reek of smoke." I'd say, "I can't help it," she just smoked one cigarette after another when we were studying, but we never got caught. One day though, we were having some finals and testing and we felt we've got to have some coffee to keep ourselves alert and awake, so we all took this little 17 thermos of coffee with us, but we never could find a spot where we could drink it. So, we brought the coffee home. JW: Because you couldn't have coffee on campus. HF: No coffee, no liquor. The liquor didn't bother any of us. Some class members from California left the program. I don't know how many. With that many people you don't count how many are still in your class. There were some who just could not leave that alone. JW: Interesting. Let's go back and talk about your time at Weber. From everything I've read, you made some huge changes for women on campus. HF: That's the one thing I'm really proud of. JW: I'm so proud of you, because I've worked my whole life and it's a struggle even now. You always have to fight for equality. HF: In the spring of 1972, Dr. Helmut Hoffman was the Academic Vice President. He called the female faculty to a meeting and explained there was a wave of unrest across the country of faculty women realizing that they had the same education, the same experience, the same time at the institution as their male counterparts and were making much less money. So, he encouraged us to organize and try to get this solved on our campus. I wasn't aware of any salary discrepancies because the Nursing Department had all women faculty. 18 A commission was formed and I was elected chairman. Inge Adams, from the Foreign Language department and Bonnie Fitzgerald from the library were elected committee members. I drafted a constitution for the Commission of the Status of Women at Weber State College and shared it with the deans and members of the faculty senate. The three of us didn't know what to do. I said, "I don't know how to start this, I have no idea." So, it took us about a year to get our thoughts together. We finally drafted a sheet on each faculty member with these criteria: education (institution, years attended and degrees), teaching experience (years at other institutions and years at Weber), evaluations (if available) and current salary. Representatives from Weber, U of U, USU and BYU met monthly to share information. I served as state chairman in 1974. We kind of frightened the deans, though I don't know how we could; we didn't look that scary to me. We started with a list of the female faculty members and who their male counterparts might be. We'd see how much the male counterpart earned and how much this person earned and then we compared their credentials against the evaluation criteria. If the criteria matched, we realized where the women faculty member's salary should be set. It was not only the women that were given the equalization, but also, we helped some men too. We also had some new faculty members coming in that were not being given the salaries that they should have received (Appendix E). Eventually, we knew all faculty salaries. It took a long time and I'd get home sometimes so tired because I was still teaching full-time and trying to do this. It was very nerve wracking because those deans were—they thought they were God. I went to the 19 legislature twice to appeal for money to equalize salaries. By 1975, we finally completed the equalization. After all this work that I did, Dr. Jerry Storey, the Academic Vice President, gave me a third time off in 1975 to remain Chairman. I had a third time off, but I had so many other duties that I never could take that time off. It was ironic, but I never ever could. I was on a lot of school committees. I served on the tenure committee and I was very active on the whole campus. I just didn't have any time to take any time off. I loved the students. I just loved the students and felt responsible for them. JW: You served for the Phi Kappa Phi, right? HF: I was secretary, and then in 1974, I was president. Weber State hosted the first International Women's Year Conference in Utah in 1975. I served as chairman. The theme was "Invest in Yourself, Share the Dividends". It was well attended with numerous positive evaluations. JW: Tell us a little bit about your trip to China. It said in the paper that you were working— HF: I was doing my dissertation for my Doctorate in Higher Education Administration at that time. This all happened because I was invited to attend a conference on the Incorporation of Cultural Diversity in Nursing Curriculum. This conference was over a three year time period. We met twice a year during that time. There were about twelve junior colleges involved in this. We learned a lot about different cultures. Most of the time was spent discussing how to get the faculty to start changing the curriculum. Faculty are set on a path in the curriculum and don't want to change it. That was the project, to try to get the different schools to change their curriculum to include cultural 20 diversity. That's what prompted me to do my dissertation. Our faculty revised the curriculum to include culture diversity. JW: It is interesting, and what I read was your article in the Signpost (Appendix F). HF: What did it say? JW: It talks about you working towards your dissertation and how you spent twenty-four days on cultural diversity and studying the health and education of the Chinese people. HF: I tried to get into the clinics. They didn't speak English and I didn't know any Chinese, but I learned a lot about acupuncture during that time and it was very interesting. JW: It said that you learned a lot about holistic healing and that the Chinese were more about holistic healing and letting the body tell you what's wrong and how to heal itself instead of using western medicine. It's an interesting little article. HF: I forgot about that. JW: Tell us about your service on Faculty Senate. HF: Yes, I was on the Faculty Senate twice. We approved recommendations from the various committees. I was on a lot of committees—the tenure committee, the curriculum committee and the ranking committee. I was on the salary committee for a long, long time. I chaired that committee right after I resigned from being the chairman of the Women's Commission, so I knew all the salaries and it was a good thing to be able to be on that committee. I watched and made sure the women were protected then. 21 JW: Does the Women's Commission still exist? HF: Oh no. I'll tell you what happened. When I went to get my doctorate, I thought, "I can't do this anymore. I've got to stop something." By then, all of the salaries were equalized, so I resigned from that position. They gave that job to Forrest Crawford. It just went downhill from then on. It was a lot of work, but I don't know how salaries are now. I just know that it's not as equal as it was. I don't have any idea how much difference there is now, but I know there is some. So, that's what happened to the Women's Commission. JW: It's just a fact of life for women, isn't it? HF: Yes. JW: I guess the other things I saw were your Crystal Crest Award. HF: Oh I was so surprised with that. I had no idea that was coming, no idea at all. They asked me to be one of the people to show nominees two different homes and enjoy lunch with them. I remember I spent all day doing that. My husband had the flu and I really wanted to be home with him. He was very sick. I said, "Do you feel like you could come to this award ceremony." He said, "Oh, I would rather not." Monte Shupe insisted that I come but I really didn't want to go. I remember calling my husband at about 6:30 just before the meeting was supposed to start to ask how he felt. He sounded terrible. But, I went and I was just completely surprised. It was a shocker! JW: The award, just to put it in, stated, "Helen Farr has been President of the Association of Women Students and has been in the U.S. Cadet Nursing Corps. She has held every 22 office including President of the Utah Nursing Association and was the Utah Chair of the First International Women's Conference." That's a great award. After you won that award, you continued working and then you retired? HF: Let's see. When was that Crystal Crest? JW: 1984. HF: I kept teaching. I was honored as professor of the year at the university in 1985. My husband had a mild stroke in the fall of 1986 and I decided I better stay home with him. So I retired at the end of Fall quarter in 1986. The students planned a surprise retirement party, with delicious food and a humorous program. The presented me a block "W" Weber State plaque. I loved teaching, I just loved it. The Student Nurses Association of Utah honored me as the "Outstanding Nurse Educator" in 1986. Leola Davidson, Ruth Brown, and Norma Hansen retired at the end of the school year in 1987. A retirement reception was held for the four of us that spring. In the fall of 1989, I attended a Weber State football game. During halftime, President Nadauld presented me with a Silver Weber State Centennial Medallion. JW: I do not have information about that, I'm glad you brought that up. HF: Well, I don't know why I wrote this, it must have been for something, but you're welcome to have a copy of this. (Helen's Memories of Weber State, Appendix G). JW: Is there anything on there that we've missed? 23 HF: Our oldest son was an attorney, and was killed in an automobile accident on January 14, 1987. My husband had a difficult time with his death and then in March of that same year my husband died. I'd left my job a few months before. Leaving my job at Weber State, and the deaths of my son and husband all happened very close. Leola Davidson said my stress chart was clear off the board. I was really stressed, but you know, you have to get over it. You have to find a way to recover. JW: And you have to keep going. You don't have any other options. HF: Yes, that's true. JW: You have a lot of community service along with your service at Weber. HF: I did. Before I forget though, I wanted to tell you in the fifties, there was a time when Governor J. Bracken Lee wanted to dissolve all of the junior colleges. I can remember that so well and how much that concerned the entire campus. I don't know enough about that background, but I can remember how we were all concerned. That was an experience that I will not forget. JW: That was with—wasn't it President Miller that had to fight to keep Weber State because J. Bracken Lee wanted to shut it down. HF: Right. It was President Miller. He was an excellent administrator. I really liked and respected him. Following President Miller, Joseph Bishop was president. He was followed by Rodney Brady and Stephen Nadauld. Then Faye Preece and I became Co- Chairman of the Emeriti Faculty Association. 24 JW: When Stephen Nadauld was there? HF: Yes, when Stephen Nadauld was there. We were allowed to go down to the Board of Regents meeting when they decided that Weber State would be a University. I remember that so vividly because the University of Utah Regent was just so adamant that Weber and the other state colleges should not be universities. He said, "They should not be universities. There is no way they should be universities." He was just almost yelling at the top of his voice. Well, the vote finally came and our student body president was able to vote. It was one extra affirmative vote that made Weber into a university. I was so thrilled. JW: It was such a fight for a long time. I think that's one of the things about Weber State is the fight to survive has always been there. It was a church school and then the church wanted to do away with it, and then the community had to pick it up. I mean, it's been a fight every step of the way. HF: It has. We've had some marvelous leadership those first hundred years. Actually, Weber State University has done really well, especially these last ten years that Ann Milner was president. She really promoted Weber, was such a good person in the legislature and accomplished numerous projects for Weber. During her speeches she often mentioned that the "WSU Nursing Program was ranked Seventh in the nation". JW: She's changed so many things on campus. HF: She did. That was her whole life. 25 JW: Yes, I cannot say enough good things about what she has accomplished. HF: That's true. JW: What are you most proud of during your time at Weber? HF: Probably the students. They have become excellent registered nurses. Many of them are in leadership positions, scholastic research endeavors and community involvement. Several of them still write or phone me. They frequently remind me of one of my favorite thoughts, "No one cares about what you know until they know how much you care". In 2010, twenty-four years after I retired, the Weber State University Alumni Association honored and surprised me by presenting the Lewis W. Shurtliff Award for Contributions to Education. I really enjoyed the students and the teaching. I almost tear up when I talk about it, but that was such a surprise to me. JW: The way they wrote it up is: "After serving as head nurse in the pediatric unit of Dee Hospital and teaching at St. Benedict's Hospital, Helen Farr joined the faculty of Weber College in 1959, making her the first instructor in the nursing program and the fourth woman on campus to be named a professor. A 1943 graduate of Weber College, she taught 27 years at her alma mater, where she was also the coordinator of the nursing program." HF: Right. That's nice the way they wrote that. JW: It is a wonderful award and it's a nice ceremony that they have for this. 26 HF: It is. It really is. You think after you've left that many years that you won't be remembered, but that was a real surprise. JW: Well, and it hasn't been that long ago, 2010. HF: It hasn't. I still hear from my students. A lot of my students still call me and that's been a span of fifty-five years. You don't have those relationships all the time, especially with students. Anyway, I think the School of Nursing is doing very well. JW: It's made a big difference and it's nice to have an area like the nursing program that is so nationally acclaimed and it really is just— HF: One of our graduates, Marlene Summer, who was in the last class that I taught that fall quarter, is now President of the Sigma Theta Tau International Honors Society of Nursing in the state of Utah. The criteria for membership are very rigid, based on a highly educated faculty, average student GPA, record of National Board examinations and community endeavors. The University of Utah asked me to be a charter member of their chapter in 1972. They had just started their BS program in the College of Nursing and they had an excellent reputation. I didn't know what Sigma Theta Tau was and I said to my husband, "I don't think I want to go down to the University of Utah. I don't have any affiliation with the U," and he said, "You better do it." So, I did go down and become a member. In the mid 1980's, the Weber State Nursing Program requested to become a chapter and had received several information and guideline letters from the national headquarters in Indiana. I was asked to work on the application following my retirement. 27 A representative from the U of U and I met several times to prepare information for submission to the national office. Now, twenty-two years later, the Weber State chapter has won many awards in leadership, scholarship and community endeavors. It is internationally recognized as an outstanding chapter. JW: Is there anything that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about? HF: No, I've just loved you both being here. It's brought back a lot of nice memories. JW: It's been such an incredible story. We both really enjoy this so we don't limit our time schedule. We just make sure we have plenty of time. HF: I had so many good experiences at Weber and have many nice memories. I didn't have one year I didn't enjoy. It was nice. JW: It is really the alumni that have this love for Weber that are helping to keep it going and helping to keep that spirit alive. HF: Do you have a lot of faculty that feel like I do? JW: Everybody that went to school at the same time you did feels the same way you do. HF: They do? I think I'm probably one of the oldest ones you've interview though, aren't I? JW: Probably. HF: That's why I thought you needed to hear my story because I knew I was probably one of the oldest ones. 28 JW: Yes, because a lot of them weren't there in the years that you were there. JW: You've been single for since 1987, and you are still able to do so many things, so that's really good. HF: Well, I like to and as long as I have a mind and I hope it's working. You know, if people tell me I don't say things right I'll know I'm losing it. JW: I think as long as you're keeping busy and making your mind work and playing cards it helps. HF: I hope you would realize how wonderful those first two years at Weber were though. Well, I liked every year at Weber really. I was sorry to have to retire, but I'm glad I did because I knew my husband needed me to be home. JW: You did get some time with him. You were busy, just crazy busy all the time. HF: I don't know how I stayed on all those committees like I did, but I was willing to do it and that did help me learn a lot about the different campus people. I knew their names, but didn't really know them. This helped me learn more about the campus people and it was a wonderful group of people, the faculty, staff and students. JW: We sure appreciate you letting us come today. HF: Thank you very much. 29 Appendix A Appendix B-1 Appendix B-2 Appendix B-3 Appendix B-4 Appendix C Appendix D

Jackie's Experiential Learning in Jack Gantos' Dead End In Norvelt Rheza Arief Dwi Piscesa English Literature Faculty of Languages and Arts State University of Surabaya rheza.arief@gmail.com Hujuala Rika Ayu, SS., MA. English Department Faculty of Languages and Arts State University of Surabaya ayuhujualarika@yahoo.com Abstrak Pembelajaran adalah suatu proses mengakuisisi sebuah pengetahuan. Karakter utama di novel ini, Jackie Gantos, mendapatkan berbagai macam ilmu melalui pengalaman, belajar, atau dengan diajarkan oleh orang lain. Di Dead End in Norvelt, proses pembelajaran yang banyak terjadi didapatkan melalui pengalaman. Jackie Gantos mendapatkan pengetahuan melalui pengalaman, hal ini dapat dianalisa menggunakan Kolb's experiential learning. Kolb's experiential learning adalah sebuah metode pembelajaran dengan cara mewariskan pengetahuan secara langsung melalui pengalaman ke dalam diri seseorang tersebut. Tujuan dari thesis ini adalah untuk memperlihatkan proses dari experiential learning di dalam hidup Jackie dan menemukan faktor-faktor yang mempengaruhi Jackie dalam usahanya untuk mengaplikasikan experiential learning dalam kehidupannya di kota Norvelt. Dengan memunculkan proses experiential learning, dapat diketahui bagaimana sebuah pengalaman diwariskan kepada orang lain serta faktor apa yang memunculkan experiential learning. Setelah experiential learning terjadi, Jackie mendapatkan banyak sekali pengetahuan, contohnya cara menggunakan senjata dengan aman, sejarah dari kota Norvelt, idealism dari seorang Eleanor Roosevelt dan lain lain. Proses mendapatkan pengetahuan ini tampak dalam tabel pembelajaran Kolb's dan faktor-faktor yang mempengaruhi terjadinya proses experiential learning dari Kolb's adalah social interaction dan self-realization. Kata Kunci: experiential learning, social interaction, self-realization. Abstract Learning is the acquisition of knowledge. The main character, Jackie Gantos, obtained skills through experience, study, or by being taught. In Dead End in Norvelt, most of the process of learning obtained through experience. Jackie Gantos' gaining knowledge through experience is analyzed by using Kolb's experiential learning. Kolb's experiential learning is a method of learning by inheriting the knowledge directly through experience that happened in a person. The objective of this thesis are to reveal the process of experiential learning in Jackie's life and finding factors that triggers Jackie's effort of applying experiential learning in his life in Norvelt. By revealing the experiential learning process, it can be found out how an experience is passed on to others and the factors that triggers experiential learning. After the experiential learning happened, Jackie gain knowledge on many things such as gun safety, history of Norvelt, Eleanor Roosevelt idealism and etc. This process of gaining knowledge is depicted through Kolb's learning table and the factors that trigger Kolb's experiential learning are social interaction and self-realization. Keywords: experiential learning, social interaction, self-realization. INTRODUCTION Learning is a process of acquiring knowledge through study. This process of learning usually occurs between students and lecturers in a formal educational school. Educational School gives courses and inheriting skillssuch as Physics, History, Chemist, Math and Language from teacher to children. There is also another way to learn something to gain knowledge and increase our understanding about the world. This way of learning is different from the original way of learning such as studying in a school and comprehend the knowledge that our teacher gives. For example, a farmer boy learn how to plough and plant seeds by seeing his father working at the field. After the boy grew up and strong enough, his father ask the boy to help him work at the field. His father showed him how to plough land, watering the field and keeping away birds from destroying the field. This boy gain knowledge through a different method than the original method of studying which is reading books and attending school. The way of the boy learning through experience, from the events of learning through his dad and working to help his dad, is the experiential learning. Experiential learning is a process of gaining knowledge through experience. This knowledge is a result from the combination of grasping and transforming the experience itself. This theory is a well-known model in education. David Kolb in his book, Experiential Learning Theory, presents a cycle of four elements to define the theory. Experiencing problem, observing the critical problem, making a concept of abstract to solve the problem, and actively experimenting to solve the problem. This process leads to a further critical reflection about the experiment and the result of the experiment. This learning theory is a development of various studies regarding to the cognitive development by Jean Piaget and philosophical perspective of pragmatism by John Dewey. Dewey's philosophical perspective of pragmatism is conveyed in his statement based on Kolb's: " If one attempts to formulate the philosophy of education implicit in the practices of the new education, we may, I think, discover certain common principles … To imposition from above is opposed expression and cultivation of individuality; to external discipline is opposed free activity ;to learning from texts and teachers, learning through experience; to acquisition of isolated skills and techniques by drill is opposed acquisition of them as means of attaining ends which make direct vital appeal; to preparation for a more or less remote future is opposed making the most of the opportunities of present life; to static aims and materials is opposed acquaintance with a changing world … I take it that the fundamental unity of the newer philosophy is found in the idea that there is an intimate and necessary relation between the processes of actual experience and education." (1938, pp.19, 20) Based on the statement by Dewey, Piaget developed this philosophy and researched Dewey's perspective into a new method to differenciate the actual learning experience as a set of educational method which invoke a knowledge that build through a relation of experience and education. Piaget's theory describes how intelligence is built through experience. He defines that intelegence is not an innate internal characteristic of the individual but comes alive as a product of the interaction between the person and his or her environment and action is the key point for Piaget. A person who does experiment gathers experience and gains knowledge through the process. In this case, experiential learning studies the process of transforming the experience into a certain knowledge. Just like the saying of Julius Caesar, "Experience is the teacher of all things." (40s BC, Commentaries on the Civil War, 2. 8), this process of experiential learning can be found mainly in the character of Jack Gantos in Jack Gantos' "Dead End in Norvelt".Jackie Gantos, the main character, living his life of summer days in Norvelt and experiencesmany things through his adventure. Summer days are his moments of hunting season with his dad, helping Miss Volker writing obituaries for the local paper, examining dead body in a Morgue which Bunny's dad work, investigating the whereabout of Mrs. Dubicki. This actions is the sets of events that can be analyzed as a process of experiential learning of Jackie in the novel. Jackie is always curious about many things, that is why he always gets into trouble. He is a good boy, but his action sometimes make his mom got a headache. This because Jackie always gets a nosebleed everytime he gets too excited, which is his mother always worried about. His adventure in Norvelt somewhat he must complices with his nosebleed problem. In his adventure, Jackie experiences many things, he knows how to safely lock the gun to prevent it blasts accidentally by learning it from his hunting experience with his dad. He also learn how to write using a typewriter while helping Mrs. Volker to write her obituaries for the local paper. This process of learning gains him knowledge through experience that happened through his adventure. It is a concrete fact that people do learn from their experience and for nontraditional students such as minorities, the poor, and mature adults – experiential learning has become the method of choice for learning and personal development. (Kolb, 1984: 3) John Byran Gantos, Jr., better known asJack Gantos(born July 2, 1951) is anAmericanauthor ofchildren's booksrenowned for his fictional characterJoey Pigza, a boy withattention-deficit hyperactivity disorder(ADHD). Gantos has won several literary awards, including theNewbery Honor, thePrintz Honor, and theSibert Honorfrom theAmerican Library Association, and he has been a finalist for theNational Book Award. His latest book,Dead End in Norvelt(2011) won the 2012Newbery Medal. Jack Gantos received both hisBFAand hisMAfromEmerson College. While in college, Gantos began working on picture books with an illustrator friend. In 1976, they published their first book,Rotten Ralph. Gantos continued writing children's books and began teaching courses in children's book writing. He was a professor of creative writing and literature (1978–95) and a visiting professor at Brown University (1986), University of New Mexico (1993) and Vermont College (1996). He developed master's degree programs in children's book writing at Emerson College and Vermont College. Jack Gantos writing career began when he work together on picture books in college with his illustrator friend. In 1976, they published their first book, Rotten Ralph. Gantos cares so much about children by publishing dozens of book regarding to picture books for kids. In his last novel Dead End in Norvelt, he creates a master copy of his childhood life into a dazzling novel that easy to understand with a portion of historical value to give an early history lesson to children. The main point of this study is the experiential learning that Jackie Gantos experience in his hometown of Norvelt. His dad is a former WWII soldier, he kept possession of many memorabilia such as Japanesse rifle and other stuff of war. This interacts Jackie to play with his stuff such as Japanesse rifle and pretend to acts like Jackie is in a war that is played on the screenplay over the neighbor. The story of the novel continue about Jackie's adventure in his town and learning experience on events such as helping writing historical obituary for Miss Volker, and secretly build an airplane in his garage with his dad. Gantos' novel Dead End in Norvelt focused more on the life of Jackie Gantos that happened in Norvelt at summer of 1962and the social interaction that happened between him and the people in Norvelt. It leads to a great adventure of him, this makes Jackie learns about many topic that he experiences in his life. Jackie lives for a time in Norvelt, a real Pennsylvania town created during the Great Depression and based on the socialist idea of community farming. Jackie's summer of 1962 begins badly: plagued by frequent and explosive nosebleeds, Jackie is assigned to take dictation for the arthritic obituary writer, Miss Volker, and kept alarmingly busy by elderly residents dying in rapid succession. Then the Hells Angels roll in. Gore is a Gantos hallmark but the squeamish are forewarned that Jackie spends much of the book with blood pouring down his face and has a run-in with home cauterization. Gradually, Jackie learns to face death and his fears straight on while absorbing Miss Volker's theories about the importance of knowing history. Based on the explanation above, this study would like to discuss on Kolb's Experiential Learning Theory by focusing on Jackie Gantos character. And this experiential learning theory will guide us on how to elaborate the process of learning by experience that happens in Jack Gantos' Dead End in Norvelt by examining Jackie Gantos character and his social interaction with the people of Norvelt. RESEARCH METHOD This study takes the data source of a novel Dead End in Norvelt, written by Jack Gantos which is published in New York by Farrar Straus Giroux, with ISBN: 978-0-374-37993-3 in 2012. To collect the data, the first step is Extensive Reading. Extensive reading is denoted as reading the text of novel extensively in order to collect the data of analysis, such as narrations, monologues, dialogues, quotations, and so forth. After collecting the data by reading extensively, the second step is intensive reading. This step is used in order to reveal the hidden idea of the novel which is related to the data. After finding the hidden idea of the novel, the next step is classifying the data through the novel which needed in analyzing the data, such as speech, actions, characters, behavior, attitudes, and thoughts. The third step is observation the data. This step is the most important step because this step is used in order to find out the experiential learning. In Dead End in Norvelt, The main character Jackie experiences many things that gain him knowledge throughout the novel. Therefore, the experiential learning is very appropriate to be applied to this study. Last but not least, it reaches the final process of collecting data, which is placing the classified data into the table. It is done to simplify in reading the data for the purpose of doing analysis. After finding the experiential learning through the events that correlate Jackie with the major characters based on the novel, the last step is data analysis. This step attempts to answer the questions subsequently based on the statement of the problems by using relevant theory. Besides, this step also uses the data of the novel Dead End in Norvelt which consists of monologues, dialogues, and quotations. The first statement of problem is the occurance of experiential learning. The depiction of experiential learning is using the theory of Kolb. This depiction can be seen on the events that correlate Jackie with other main characters inside the novel. The second statement of problem is the factors that causes Jackie to apply experiential learning in his life which gain him knowledge through experience with other. The factors will be analyzed by using the theory of Rummels. EXPERIENTIAL LEARNING Experiential learning is a well-known model in education. Kolb's experiential learning theory defines experiential learning as "the process whereby knowledge is created through the transformation of experience. Knowledge results from the combination of grasping and transforming experience." (1984:38) Kolb's Experiential Learning Theory (1984:42) presents a cycle of four elements: The cycle begins with an experience that the student has had, followed by an opportunity to reflect on that experience. Then students may conceptualize and draw conclusions about what they experienced and observed, leading to future actions in which the students experiment with different behaviors. This begins the cycle anew as students have new experiences based on their experimentation (Oxendine, Robinson and Willson, 2004). Although this continuum is presented as a cycle, the steps may occur in nearly any order. This learning cycle involves both concrete components (steps 1 and 4) and conceptual components (steps 2 and 3), which require a variety of cognitive and affective behaviors. Experiential learning can exist without a teacher and relates solely to the meaning of making process of the individual's direct experience. However, although the gaining of knowledge is an inherent process that occurs naturally, for a genuine learning experience to occur, there must exist certain elements. According to Kolb, knowledge is continuously gained through both personal and environmental experiences. He states that in order to gain genuine knowledge from an experience, certain abilities are required: • The learner must be willing to be actively involved in the experience; • The learner must be able to reflect on the experience; • The learner must possess and use analytical skills to conceptualize the experience; and • The learner must possess decision making and problem solving skills in order to use the new ideas gained from the experience. Experiential activities are among the most powerful teaching and learning tools available. Experiential learning requires self-initiative, an "intention to learn" and an "active phase of learning". Kolb's cycle of experiential learning can be used as a framework for considering the different stages involved. Jennifer A. Moon has elaborated on this cycle to argue that experiential learning is the most effective when it involves: 1) a "reflective learning phase" 2) a phase of learning resulting from the actions inherent to experiential learning, and 3) "a further phase of learning from feedback". This process of learning can result in "changes in judgment, feeling or skills" for the individual and can provide direction for the "making of judgments as a guide to choice and action". Most educators understand the important role of experience in the learning process. The role of emotion and feelings in learning from experience has been recognised as an important part of experiential learning.While those factors may improve the likelihood of experiential learning occurring, it can occur without them. Rather, what is vital in experiential learning is that the individual is encouraged to directly involve themselves in the experience, and then to reflect on their experiences using analytical skills, so they gain a better understanding of the new knowledge and retain the information for a longer time. Reflection is a crucial part of the experiential learning process, and like experiential learning itself, it can be facilitated or independent. Dewey wrote that "successive portions of reflective thought grow out of one another and support one another", creating a scaffold for further learning, and allowing for further experiences and reflection. This reinforces the fact that experiential learning and reflective learning are iterative processes, and the learning builds and develops with further reflection and experience. Facilitation of experiential learning and reflection is challenging, but "a skilled facilitator, asking the right questions and guiding reflective conversation before, during, and after an experience, can help open a gateway to powerful new thinking and learning". Jacobson and Ruddy, building on Kolb's four-stage Experiential Learning Model and Pfeiffer and Jones's five stage Experiential Learning Cycle, took these theoretical frameworks and created a simple, practical questioning model for facilitators to use in promoting critical reflection in experiential learning. Their "5 Questions" model is as follows: • Did you notice.? • Why did that happen? • Does that happen in life? • Why does that happen? • How can you use that? These questions are posed by the facilitator after an experience, and gradually lead the group towards a critical reflection on their experience, and an understanding on how they can apply the learning to their own life. Although the questions are simple, they allow a relatively inexperienced facilitator to apply the theories of Kolb, Pfeiffer, and Jones, and deepen the learning of the group. SOCIAL INTERACTION According to R.J. Rummel (1976: Chapter 9 : Social Behavior And Interaction) , social interactions are the acts, actions, or practices of two or more people mutually oriented towards each other's selves, that is, any behavior that tries to affect or take account of each other's subjective experiences or intentions. This means that the parties to the social interaction must be aware of each other--have each other's self in mind. This does not mean being in sight of or directly behaving towards each other. Friends writing letters are socially interacting, as are enemy generals preparing opposing war plans. Social interaction is not defined by type of physical relation or behavior, or by physical distance. It is a matter of a mutual subjective orientation towards each other. Thus even when no physical behavior is involved, as with two rivals deliberately ignoring each other's professional work, there is social interaction. Moreover, social interaction requires a mutual orientation. The spying of one on another is not social interaction if the other is unaware. Nor do the behaviors of rapist and victim constitute social interaction if the victim is treated as a physical object; nor behavior between guard and prisoner, torturer and tortured, machine gunner and enemy soldier. Indeed, wherever people treat each other as object, things, or animals, or consider each other as reflex machines or only cause-effect phenomena, there is not social interaction such interaction may comprise a system; it may be organized, controlled, or regimented. According to Arnold W Green in his book Sociology an Analysis of life in Modern Society, Social interaction is "…the mutual influences that individuals and groups have upon one another in their attempts to solve problems and in their striving toward goals. Social interaction discloses the concrete results of striving behavior upon roles, statuses, and moral norms" (Green, 1964: 57) There are two types of social interaction, structured and unstructured. Structured social interaction is guided by previously establishing definitions and expectations, owing either to familiarity with the other as a person, as among family and friends, or to knowledge of the others formal position, as between lawyer and judge in court room proceedings, unstructured encounters lack prior expectations and must be defined as required in the course of action. Although at a proposition of intimate relationships are highly structured even the most familiar partners and friends remain capable of unpredictable and novel responses in relationships infact the most interesting trends and associates are those who widely improvise. Conversely rarely do we find a situation completely lacking in structure. Even two strangers come from quite diverse backgrounds, their interactions of likely to be governed by norms of physical safety, age, sex, etc. Thus special interaction may be viewed as partly governed by pre-established rules and expectations and as partly inventive, interpretive and improvisational. TYPES OF SOCIAL INTERACTION According to Chris Levy (earthlink.net: ch.4, 2), Social interaction is divided into five points: a. Exchange: The process in which people transfer goods, services, and other items with each other. Exchange is a social process whereby social behavior is exchanged for some type of reward for equal or greater value. b. Competition: Process by which two or more people/groups attempt to obtain the same goal. Scarce resources are unequally distributed. This concept is very familiar and important to Americans considering the idea of competition is built in to our economy and society. Yet, the jury is still out whether this competition produces the assumed results of the "best rising to the top" c. Cooperation: The process in which people work together to achieved shared goals. Usually this involves the giving up of individual goals for group goals d. Conflict: The process by which people attempt to physically or socially conquer each other. Although war is the most obvious example of this, this is done most often in social situations (ex. politics, threats, etc.) e. Coercion: Process by which people compel other people to do something against their will – based ultimately on force. The state usually handles this through official means (police, army, etc.) but individuals use it in social situations as well (parents, friends, lovers – sex) f. No one type of interaction describes social reality – it involves a mix and match of different ones. SELF-REALIZATION Self-realization is a concept where people realize on their own regarding a certain event that perceived through their behavior. Mortimer Adler defines self-realization as freedom from external coercion, including cultural expectations, political and economic freedom, and the freedom from worldly attachments and desires etc. (1958: 127, 135, 149). This concept is the opposite of social interaction because self-realization occur without any social interaction. The person is free to realize his own potential by absorbing the knowledge through his own way, for example reading books, without any interference from other person. PARADIGM OF ANALYSIS The analysis will utilize Kolb's experiential learning to classify the events into two triggering factors of experiential learning, social interaction and self-realization. The classification will further explain the process of gaining knowledge. The table of Kolb's experiential learning is used to reveal the process of learning that a person went through. The process of a person learning through experience consists of Experience phase, Critical Reflection phase, Abstract phase, Active Experimentation phase and reach into a further Critical Reflection to adjust the knowledge that gained through the process. The social interaction and the self-realization is used as a triggering factor of experiential learning process. THE DEPICTION OF JACKIE GANTOS' EXPERIENTIAL LEARNING Elaborating event in the novel to show the depiction of Jackie's effort in applying experiential learning is an important process. Before elaborating the event, knowing Jackie's character first is essential. The knowledge regarding Jackie's character is important because it is used as a guidance to define the social interaction between Jackie and other character in the event, to understand Jackie relation with others, and to understand the experiential learning process. Jack is a teenager in Norvelt around age of 11 to 12, He is a curious person, a rebel, nose bleeder, a book-worm, helpful to others and also full of action. These characteristics are described throughout the novel as Jack likes to read history when he was at home. His adventures rotates about the stories in Norvelt, how he spent his summer holiday at home grounded because of gun accident and helping Miss Volker out with her obituary thing. Jack is the main character that is full of action through all the novel. Based on Kolb's experiential learning model, Jackie's character experience and learn about many things that happens in his life, especially through his social interaction with others as one of the factor to trigger experiential learning. This experiential learning process appears in events that related to Jackie's action with other character, creating a situation which lead to a learning comprehension through experience. In this section, the events will be distinguished into the most unique event showing Jackie's learning through experience. This unique event will focus on Jackie's interaction with some of the most important characters in the novel, Jackie's parent, Miss Volker, Mr. Spizz, Bunny, and Mrs. Dubicky. THE EVENTS OF JACKIE'S PARENT There are several events that involve Jackie with his parents in the novel. Some of them can be classified as unique, one of them is about the Money and Barter concept. Norvelt is a community town based on barter or trading skills with neighbors. Norvelt is created to solve Great Depression problem. At that time, money is hard to get and crops prices fell so low so business all over town is bankrupt. The concept of Money and Barter shows differences of ages between Jackie's mom in the past and present time. This event happened between Jackie and his Mom when they visit the doctor to examine Jackie's nose problem. Jackie learn about the concept of Money and Barter from the conversation with her mom which happened while Jackie is on his way home. The concept of Money and Barter is one of the unique values of knowledge that Jackie experiences in the novel. The other unique event Jackie's experience with his Dad regarding gun safety that he experienced in the past. This event is important since it builds Jackie's character to be aware and always caution regarding gun safety. To describe the social interaction happened in the event, knowing the character of Jackie's parent character is compulsory. The character of a person can define the social interaction that occur between him and other people. In a family relation, social interaction that mostly happened is cooperation between family and also conflict which bonds family members. Jackie's Mom is a caring, loving mother but is also strict about the rules at home. She forbids Jackie to play with dangerous things like guns and stuffs from the Japanese war that Jackie's dad kept at basement. "Well, don't hurt yourself," Mom warned. "And if there is blood on some of that stuff, don't touch it. You might catch something, like Japanese polio." (Gantos, 2012: 1) Her love for Jack is strong even though Jack does things that make her mad like blasting the rifle or mowing the corn row. She always reminds him to be careful because of his nosebleed problem. She's afraid that her son has iron-poor blood he may not be getting enough oxygen to his brain. (Gantos, 2012: 3) Meanwhile Jackie's dad is a former war soldier, a hardworking father, and a loving and adventurous man. He learns almost everything from his dad. No wonder Jack is so hyperactive. Jackie's Dad is also a collector. He keeps stuff from the Japanese War era to make profit when it is valuable enough. This can be seen in the quotation below. … in fact, he never let me play with it, because as he put it, "This swag will be worth a bundle of money someday, so keep your grubby hands off it."(Gantos, 2012: 1) As the story goes, Jackie will get involved in something more than just a rifle to be blasted. MISS VOLKER'S EVENTS Miss Volker is a medical examiner of the town and also the chief nurse in town. Her job is to take notes of the people health records and writes people obituary as they are passed away. Unfortunately her hands are not as good as her youth. So she asks Jackie's mom to send Jack to help her with her writing. The job was a tribute of duty from Eleanor Roosevelt and also her way to thank Mrs. Roosevelt for building Norvelt into a friendly community town. "When Mrs. Roosevelt hired me to be the chief nurse and medical examiner of this town I was given a typewriter so I could keep health records on the original two hundred and fifty families. Now it's my closing tribute to Mrs. Roosevelt that I write their final health report – which, in this case, would be their obituary…" (Gantos, 2012: 16) Miss Volker important is the main point of the novel and her relation with Jackie as her scribe invoke Jackie's learning phase in experiential learning. By helping her to write obituary, Jackie finds many things that he doesn't know before and some of the most important and unique event that binds Jackie with Miss Volker are the Eleanor Roosevelt's idealism and also the history of Norvelt. Eleanor Roosevelt's idealism is conveyed through Miss Volker speech when she was dictating Jackie to write the obituary of Mrs. Dubicki. The event gives a unique description regarding Eleanor Roosevelt's thought and idealism of a strong community based town to start a helping neighborhood so people doesn't have to depend on money which is hard to get in Depression era. She made sure that the community had real houses which include bedrooms, a living room, a kitchen and a bathroom with bathtub. When the government reacts to this idea, they try to reject the plan by calling it luxury living. But Mrs. Roosevelt defended the plan by saying that this is not living in luxury but it is called living with dignity. (Gantos, 2012: 88) The other event is learning about the history of Norvelt. The basic role of society is by knowing your own neighborhood history. In this novel Jackie learnt about Norvelt history from many different perspectives but most of them came from Miss Volker's obituary dictation. The most important dictation is the one when Miss Volker does the obituary for Mrs. Bloodgood because it reveals the story of how the Norvelt name truly came and also the story of equality behind the making of Norvelt as one of the role model for every town in the United States of America. MRS. DUBICKI'S EVENTS Mrs. Dubicki is the old woman at the house of C-27. She is a loner and a grumpy person. There was a time when Mr. Spizz hands her ticket for having an old shabby house, she chase him with her husband's double-barreled shotgun. "This is her house," she said. "She hasn't painted it since 1934. I like Mrs. Dubicki because that busybody Spizz gave her a ticket for having a shabby-looking house and she chased him off the property with her dead husband's double-barreled shotgun." (Gantos, 2012: 47) After Jackie visited her in a disguise with Miss Volker to check about her, she reveals her polite side and also a loving grandparent since she didn't want to miss her grandson's birthday on July third. The appearances of Mrs. Dubicki in this novel is important because she plays an important role in helping Jackie learns about disguising skill, driving skill and also Eleanor Roosevelt's idealism. Eleanor Roosevelt's idealism has been described on the above section, it also correlates Jackie with Mrs. Dubicki since he learnt about Eleanor Roosevelt's idealism on the dictation of Mrs. Dubicki obituary. Eleanor Roosevelt is fond of Jeffersonian principle that later shaped the planning of Norvelt. She also agrees to Jefferson that every American should have a house with fertile property to be used as a farming site so when money was difficult to come by, a man and woman could always grow crops and have enough food to feed their family (Gantos, 2012: 97). Regarding Jackie's driving skill and his disguising skill, he learnt about all that when he was accompanying Miss Volker on an investigation on Mrs. Dubicki's missing a church appointment which then create a rumor of Mrs. Dubicki already resting in peace at her home. That's why Jackie tries to disguise himself to avoid a false information and he can get away without having to worry about trespassing someone else house. MR. SPIZZ'S EVENTS Mr. Spizz's events are considered important because Mr. Spizz works for the Norvelt Public Good whose objective is to create a law abiding situation for the good of the neighborhood. Mr. Spizz is a man who feel that he is the most important man in the town, he acts like a sheriff regardless his appearance running around in a giant tricycle. He secretly love Miss Volker since 1912, sending her a box of chocolate every week. …. It read, I'm still ready, willing and waiting. Your swain since 1912 with the patience of Job. – Edwin Spizz." (Gantos, 2012: 9) He usually looks bossy, law abiding man as he is strict about rules like grass tall law and house paint job law of the community. He always sticks to the rules and always reminded people in the neighborhood. Mr. Spizz's events is considered important since Jackie always met Mr. Spizz in the crime scene of the death of old women. But some of the most important events are Jackie's deal with Mr. Spizz and the murderer of old women. In Jackie's deal with Mr. Spizz, Jackie helps Mr. Spizz to buy a tin can of 1080 poison for an exchange of forgetting the gutter weed ticket fine and also ending the runway zoning law problem that Mr. Spizz wrung about with Jackie's Dad airplane project. The other event is the murderer of old women. This event takes place at the end of the novel when Mr. Spizz confessed to Miss Volker regarding the murderer that he has done in Norvelt. Jackie found out the story after saving Miss Volker from the basement. The social interaction happened in the events that include Mr. Spizz are coercion and conflict. This happened because Jackie always clashes with Mr. Spizz in one way or another. The example is the gutter ticket and Jackie's Dad runway. BUNNY'S EVENTS Bunny is a close friend of Jackie. She is a small, funny, brave and sometimes freaky girl with an enormous energy among her. … Bunny was a girl the size of one of Santa's little helpers. She was so short she could run full speed under her dining room table without ducking. She'd take double position at shortstop and second base… Because she grew up in a house full of dead people she wasn't afraid of anything." (Gantos, 2012: 27) She is not an ordinary girl, regarding the fact that her daily routine was watching her dad prepare the dead. Her dad, Mr. Huffer is the man who prepares dead body before burial. He owned the only funeral parlor in town. The events that correlate Jackie with Bunny is unique. The conversation related to the unique preparation of the dead for funeral give Jackie knowledge. He gain the knowledge that to prepare dead body you must sew the mouth shut so it doesn't open again. Other example of the event is the Hufferville plan. Jackie found out the plan after meeting up with Bunny to accompany her fire patrol duty. The plan give Jackie the knowledge that Mr. Huffer tried to expand his business to another kind of business, which is a plan to build a new town on the land of Norvelt by buying all the land and moving the old house to another location. The social interaction that mostly happened between Jackie and Bunny are cooperation, coercion and also conflict. These social interaction mostly happened in a close friend relationship and it is natural to have a coercion and conflict in this kind of relationship. THE INFLUENCING FACTORS OF JACKIE'S APPLYING EXPERIENTIAL LEARNING IN HIS LIFE To find out the elements of experiential learning the analysis will be divided into two different factors. The first one is the analysis which use social interaction found in the conversation between Jackie and other characters and the action that happened between Jackie and other characters that create an experience reward to be learned by Jackie. The second one is the analysis which doesn't involve any social interaction at all. So in this second analysis Jackie gain experience through his own critical thinking which can be called self-realization. This analysis will focus on Jackie's experience in reading history books and Jackie's thought. EXPERIENTIAL LEARNING INVOLVES SOCIAL INTERACTION The analysis will be divided into two parts, the conversation part between Jackie and other character in the novel and the other is Jackie's actual experience throughout the novel. The experience can be classified according to the type of social interaction that has been described in chapter two above. Conversation is the basic social interaction that happened between people in life. Conversation is a form of interactive, spontaneous communication between two or more people who are following rules of etiquette. It is a polite give and take of subjects thought of by people talking with each other for company (Conklin, 1912: 22). Conversation used as a tool to deliver thought of a person to another person. Occasionally, the conversation consist of small talk but it also may consist of something intelligent for example a conversation about history fact, which appears a lot in this novel, and other information on special topic such as war experience. In this part, the conversation will be focused on Jackie's conversation with other characters in the novel that generalize in some specific topic conveyed through the event. The first event considered an important experience learning is the conversation related to Eleanor Roosevelt and her Idealism. This event give Jackie knowledge on Eleanor Roosevelt's historical background in building Norvelt and also her Idealism through her point of view. Eleanor Roosevelt's idealism of living in dignity and living without fear of having no money conveyed in Norvelt town. It is originally her idea to build a community town that release the wrath of economic depression by sustaining life through helping each other out. Jackie learns this through several conversation portrayed inside the novel. Norvelt originally comes through a mind of Eleanor Roosevelt. The mind of having a community based town to increase the standard living of the coal miners. The first conversation about Eleanor Roosevelt appears between Jackie and Mr. Fenton. I had asked Mr. Fenton about it and he said he wanted a hundred bucks because it had historic value. "Eleanor Roosevelt was driven around Norvelt in it," …. Every time her name was mentioned everything went up in price, which was so backward because she wanted everything to go down in price. (Gantos, 2012: 21) Eleanor Roosevelt wanted to build a strong community within Norvelt, to start a helping neighborhood so people doesn't have to depend on money like they used to. Since the great depression era, Norvelt becomes a model community to start living in a better standard. This can be seen in the next quotation. "But Godmother Roosevelt came to the rescue. She made sure people had real houses - little New England-style houses – and they had bedrooms and a living room and a useful kitchen and a bathroom with a bathtub, and even a laundry room with washing machine. The government called this luxury living. But Mrs. Roosevelt called it living with dignity." (Gantos, 2012: 88) Eleanor Roosevelt fought for the people, to make sure they had a deserved place to live in. She especially fond of the principle of Thomas Jefferson the third President of USA that every American should have a house enough to plant their own food in their property. This is to maintain that when money was hard to get, they can still living by growing crops to feed their own family. This is also depicted in the quotation below when Miss Volker is making the obituary for Mrs. Dubicki. "Mrs. Roosevelt was especially fond of a Jeffersonian principle that shaped the planning of Norvelt. Jefferson believed that every American should have a house large enough piece of fertile property so that during hard times, when money was difficult to come by, a man and woman could always grow crops and have enough food to feed their family. Jefferson believed that the farmer was the key to America and that a well-run family farm was a model for a well-run government. Mrs. Roosevelt felt the same. And we in Norvelt keep that belief alive." (Gantos, 2012: 97) Jackie learns a bit of history of Norvelt and also the principal idea of Eleanor Roosevelt that wants to bring Norvelt family into a role model for every town in the United States. This intelligence came from a conversational subject between Jackie and Mr. Fenton and also Jackie and Miss Volker. The process of experiential learning can be seen on the table below. The event between Jackie and Bunny is the preparation of a dead man. In this event, Jackie learns about how the dead being prepared for the last tribute. This event occurs in a conversation between Jackie and Bunny while they were playing baseball on the field. Bunny was asking about Jackie's doing obituary for Mrs. Slater for the paper. She think that it was well written. So she gives Jackie a gift, dentures from Mrs. Slater funeral preparation. Jackie was surprised to know that Bunny had Mrs. Slater dentures. He thought that it was buried with Mrs. Slater body. Then Bunny tells him a story about how to prepare a dead body for funeral viewing. "You don't know anything about preparing dead people for a viewing," she bragged. "If you'll notice, the stiffs are always displayed with their mouths closed because my dad has to sew their mouths shut. If they don't have real teeth you just sew their gums together which is actually easier, so we keep the dentures. Dad saves them because when he gets a boxful he donates them to the retirement home and some of those old people reuse them." "You really have to sew the mouth shut?" I asked. That stunned me. It seemed so brutal. "With an upholstery needle and twine," she added, knowing she was making me nervous. "It's like sewing up a turkey after you stuff it, is how my dad puts it." (Gantos, 2012: 30) Bunny tells him about how his dad sews the dead's mouth to prevent them from opening. And she also tells him about how the dentures are being kept. Because if someone doesn't have teeth it is easier to sew the gum where the teeth belong rather than to keep the dentures inside. The dentures will be donated to the old house to be reused by seniors. Bunny also describes the sewing session was like sewing up turkey for Thanksgiving. Imagining it was already too much for Jackie as his nose starting to bleed. This makes Bunny curious and ask Jackie about what happened to his nose. And then Jackie tell Bunny about how his sickness correlated on all things, fear, excited, startled, imagining scary stuff and etc. I felt my blood surge like a tidal wave toward my face. "Are you always like this?" she asked, and pointed her stubby hand at my nose. "Yes," I croaked, and wiped away a few drops of blood. "You should see a doctor," she advised. "It's nothing," I said. "I have a very sensitive nose. Anything makes it bleed." (Gantos, 2012: 30) This event helps Jackie to understand more about how to prepare dead body for a funeral. It also helps him to share his problem about his nose to Bunny. It makes Jackie feels comfortable even though he had nose that bleeds a lot. The event of preparing dead body can be disassembled through the table below: Experience Bunny tells Jackie about how to prepare dead people for funeral viewing Critical Reflection Bunny reflected on the event in past about his dad sewing the dead's mouth Active Experimentation Bunny tell Jackie that the process of sewing the mouth was just like sewing up turkey Abstract Bunny explain further about how the dentures are being kept if the body doesn't have teeth Further Critical Reflection Jackie knew about how to prepare dead men. And Bunny knew about Jackie's sickness and what triggers his nose to bleed. EXPERIENTIAL LEARNING WITHOUT SOCIAL INTERACTION This part of analysis will conveyed events that happens in the novel which involving Jackie as the only person who experience it. It occurs without any social interaction with other character. Self-realization is a concept where people realize on their own regarding a certain event that perceived through their behavior. Mortimer Adler defines self-realization as freedom from external coercion, including cultural expectations, political and economic freedom, and the freedom from worldly attachments and desires etc. (1958: 127, 135, 149). In this novel, the self-realization comes into the mind of Jackie Gantos who realize his action and try to comprehend the effect of his action. The first event that reveal the concept of self-realization is the event of Jackie's rifle. In this part of the story, Jackie is playing with his dad rifle. The old Japanese rifle is still working well, so even though Jackie knew it was dangerous he still plays with it but he let loose the ammo clip to make sure it was not blasting accidentally. I lifted the rifle again and swung the tip of the barrel straight up into the air. I figured I could gradually lower the barrel at the screen, aim, and pick off one of the Japanese troops. With all my strength I slowly lowered the barrel and held it steady enough to finally get the ball centered inside the V, and when I saw a tiny Japanese soldier leap out of a bush I quickly pulled the trigger and let him have it. BLAM! The rifle fired off and violently kicked out of my grip. It flipped into the air before clattering down across the picnic table and sliding onto the ground. … (Gantos, 2012: 4) Based on the narration above, there are no social interaction that happened. According to R.J. Rummels, social interaction requires a mutual orientation. (Hawaii.edu, pars 8) This mean that there must be two or more person available in the interaction and they must be aware of each other. So the text above only represent experiential learning. It only happened because of Jackie's action, playing with his Dad's Japanese rifle. There is no other person involved in and there are on mutual orientation happened. The elaboration of the theory can be seen below on the table. Active Experimentation The rifle's blasting a bullet through the neighborhood yard Abstract Jackie aiming his rifle and pull the triggers like an actual soldier Experience Jackie playing with rifle Critical Reflection Jackie watching war movie and pretend to be a soldier Further Critical Reflection Jackie confuse and try to comprehend about what happened to the gun, why did it blast off and try to be more safe with gun in the future The table explains about how Kolb's experiential learning theoryworks in this novel. Experience is the first event that take notice of Jack playing with his Dad Japanese rifle. Critical Reflection tells us about Jackie's thought about his new toy by watching a war movie and pretend to be a soldier. Abstract is the conceptualization of Jackie's thought about being an actual soldier by aiming his rifle and pull the triggers as if he is in war. Then the Active Experimentation shows the cause of Jackie's action for playing with his gun. At last Jackie made another further Critical Reflection by showing his confusion about the matter and try to comprehend about what happened to the gun, why it blasted off and he will try to be more careful with gun in the future. The War concept is the next event that appear as a self-realization of Jackie. War is a devastating event. Jackie's dad is a former marine in World War II so when Jack was digging the bomb shelter he usually asked about war stuff to his dad. In chapter 9, Jackie asked his Dad about war. "Hey, Dad" I called behind him as he walked toward the tractor. "Which do you think is more deadly? Past history or future history?" He didn't even slow down to think about it. "Future history." He yelled back without hesitation. "Each war gets worse because we get better at killing each other." (Gantos, 2012: 52) Jackie then think about his dad statement and began to comprehend about war in the past such as the quotation below. That sounded so true. At first caveman bashed each other's heads in with rocks and sticks. By the time of the Crusaders it was long swords and arrows, and at Gettysburg they were blasting each other to bits from cannons filled with lead balls, iron chains, railroad spikes, and door knobs. And atomic bombs made future wars look even more hopeless. (Gantos, 2012: 52) He then think about the result of a nuclear war, the effect on earth and also the animals and human being after the radiation take effect. No humans will survive. All the animals will die. Fish will rot in acidic water. All vegetarian will wilt in the polluted air. There will be nothing left but enormous insects the size of dinosaurs. (Gantos, 2012: 52) Jackie then continue to march on his job to dig a bomb shelter. Knowing that the future might get worse than he thinks and the only hope for survival might be by building cities underground just like his Dad used to say that the army built one to protect the president and all the self-important government people. Jackie self-realization appear in the event after his dad tell him about how future war is more deadly because we get better in killing people. He then began to think about the war, how it effects on human life. Another war concept appear in Miss Volker dictation about Mrs. Vinyl when she entered the history part regarding the Hiroshima incident. " … Most people think that the atomic bombing of Hiroshima was necessary for ending the war." She continued. "And there is some truth to that, given that the Japanese were prepared to fight to the last person to protect their country. But what the atomic bombing of Hiroshima should teach everyone is that you don't win the war by being more moral or ethical or nicer or more democratic than your enemy. And God has nothing to do with winning or losing. … You win a war by being tougher and meaner and more ruthless than your enemy. You beat, burn, and crush them into the ground. This is the historic rule of winning a war. …" (Gantos, 2012: 126) But in this part Jackie learn by listening to Miss Volker speech about the obituary, which is not his own self-realization. So, this analysis regarding the Hiroshima incident will not appear in the experiential learning because the table will only focus on the self-realization part of Jackie's thought about the war. Actual Experimentation Jackie then think about how the caveman fight, and goes throughout history until the atomic incident Experience Jackie digging a bomb shelter he then asked his dad about the war Critical Reflection His dad then answer without doubt that future history is more deadly Abstract His dad give a clear perspective about how war in the future is more deadly by giving statement that people get better at killing people in the future Further Critical Reflection Agreeing his dad, he continued to dig for bomb shelter in hope for a future save compartment when they enter the future history war. CONCLUSION Based on the recent analysis, the result can be concluded that experiential learning appear through events that Jackie's going through in his summer holiday in Norvelt. Those event occured between Jackie and other characters in the novel. Jackie's parents, Miss Volker, Mr Spizz, and Bunny are some of the most important characters that build Jackie's intellectual mind. Experiential learning occured because of the influencing factors, the social interaction that happened between Jackie and the other characters in the novel and also Jackie's self-realization. The first conclusion is concerning about how the experiential learning happened. The experiential learning appeared because of the events that depict the learning process between Jackie and other characters in the novel. The experiential learning is represented through the Kolb's experiential learning table so the process of experiential learning can be seen clearly. The experience table shows the event of social interaction between Jackie and the other characters, or the event of self-realization by Jackie himself. These experience table then proceeds into a critical reflection of the problem and encourages Jackie to think about the event which stimulate an abstract conceptualization of the event. Jackie then actively experimented on the abstract that he created from the previous table, to gain a concrete experience which then enabled him to get knowledge regarding the matter. Jackie then created a further reflection of the experience, and think about the result of the experience. This further critical reflection create a scaffold for further learning, and allow for further experiences and reflection.Critical reflection reinforces the fact that experiential learning and reflective learning a

Ralph G. Crandall, September 30, 2013 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Ralph Crandall. The interview was conducted on September 30, 2013, by Lorrie Rands and recorded by Avery Pince. Ralph discusses his experiences with 25th Street. ; 24p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Ralph G. Crandall Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 30 September 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Ralph G. Crandall Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 30 September 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Crandall, Ralph, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 30 September 2013, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Ralph G. Crandall September 30, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Ralph Crandall. The interview was conducted on September 30, 2013, by Lorrie Rands and recorded by Avery Pince. Ralph discusses his experiences with 25th Street. LR: It is Monday, September 30th, 2013. We are in the home of Mr. Ralph Crandall in Ogden, Utah and we are conducting an oral history interview of historic 25th street, of Ogden, then and now, if you will. My name is Lorrie Rands and I will be conducting the interview and Avery Pince is the assistant. So we'll just get right into it. When are where were you born? RC: What year was I born? LR: Yes, when and where. RC: 1922, July 22nd. I was born in Morgan. Just up Weber Canyon, lived there for a couple of months is all. My father had gone from Morgan down to the Southern Pacific Shops and they had a strike that year and he went through the strike because the strike men were dismissed and new ones had to come in. He was a farmer up there and he was a machinist when he got down here. He was capable of being a machinist with the amount of mechanical work he done on his farm equipment and that type of thing I suppose. It was rare that they made a person machinist but that's what he was, his career. And so, he couldn't get out of the shops because if you broke the picket line, you was liable to get injured because there was pretty good animosity going on there. My Grandmother, his mother lived down on about 26th and Wall Ave. The picket line wouldn't harm the women and she could bring some food into him at times but it was a couple months after 1 I was born that he sent for my mom and me, and my mom's older sister, who acted as a surrogate mom, so-to-speak, for the family. Dad's first wife that died of the flu of 1918 and he had three children under four years old. My mom was born in North Ogden and he was born in Pleasant View. And he knew my mom during the school-time. Both now around 30 years old, my mom was the youngest of her family and she was left with her mom and an invalid sister because the rest of them just moved away: so she ended up as the care taker by default sort of. When Dad's first wife died he had found out my mom was still single, so he headed to her home in North Ogden to see if she'd come and take his children and be his wife. And I'm the second born of that union. I had a sister that was born a year or so ahead of me but she died immediately after birth, so I'm the oldest of that family. We moved down to Ogden, of course, to be a family. I grew up in Ogden. LR: And where in Ogden did you grow up? RC: Well, our first place we lived at 1072 Oak Street. Mom grew up on a farm more-less and Dad was a farmer, with three children from him, myself and a sister that come along, they moved out to 2nd and Adams Avenue, still in Ogden it had an acre of ground attached to it and we was able to have produce and farm vegetables, a cow and the things people needed to survive in those days. Since he worked at the shops, Southern Pacific round house near 22nd and Wall Avenue for the locomotives coming in off to the rails for repairs. They called it a round house because the locomotives were put on sort of a revolving deck in the middle of this and they'd come in on the tracks and they'd rotate that 2 deck to a side track to work on those locomotives on those side areas, so it was a huge round building and they called it a round house. I can remember going in there when the strike was settled and seeing a lot of things that he accomplished. The locomotives in those days were all steam and the big barrel over the wheels of the locomotives was a boiler. The coal and the wood and whatever was used for the heat were pitched in by a fireman and there was an engineer who ran the locomotive. The boiler would build up steam and the steam would provide the propulsion for the locomotive to pull freight. There was this one thing that was quite interesting. I don't know if anybody ever realized it but those locomotives had tires on the wheels. They called them the tire, and you look at a tire and it's something you put on a car and its rubber but this wasn't rubber, it was steel. The wheels of the locomotive were cast iron, too soft to run on the rails, so they put a rim of steel around that wheel. Now, that wheel was, like six foot tall, this rim was about an inch thick and about three inches wide and it would fit over the flange of the cast iron wheel. So, they called that rim a tire. To repair this, they had a gas fired ring that spewed flames out and they'd put this ring close to the wheel of the locomotive and they'd have this fire running on natural gas and the idea was to get that ring hot and since everything expands when you get it hot, well that was gauged in such a way that the rim, the tire, was put on the rim after it got hot enough and it slid onto the wheel and this man had to be accurate enough to drive that tire on that wheel in such a way that it was against the flange because when it hit the cold cast iron it would shrink up and it would shrink up and seize onto that wheel. And that's what they did for all locomotives for the driving 3 wheels. There is an interesting thing about that propulsion too, the pistons were in a barrel type-thing with steam running to it and then this piston had an arm that went to the wheel and a ram effect, and if the ram is pushed forward, it makes the wheel rotate and that was how they'd get the propulsion to run a steam locomotive and anything that's round. Even in ships with paddle wheels and things like that. They had this steam type-thing. I couldn't begin to tell you what year but it was first invented for steam ships on the ocean and then it was converted to locomotives. Interesting thing that crossed my mind, if the locomotive stopped and it was on dead-center, meaning that the arm that pushed the wheel around was absolutely horizontal to the wheel, and it was on dead center, that locomotive couldn't move, no matter how much steam you put to it, it wouldn't work. So they had to get the locomotive off dead-center so that the arm could be moved up or down from the center so that it could have purchase power to drive the wheel. It used to be a saying to somebody working in that and if you didn't put out work, you were on dead-center, you weren't doing anything. But getting back to the wheel of the locomotive, they used to use a pinch bar. A man would come up with leverage using a pinch bar which was a steel rod about an inch and a half or so in diameter and the end was a wedge shape and he would put that right under the wheel at the track and just by man power he could move that up because of the leverage he had and move that locomotive just enough so that it wasn't on dead-center so that it could begin to get locomotion. LR: So, you learned all of this from watching your dad? 4 RC: Just learned all of that by watching my dad. There's another thing that might be useful information that is interesting to talk about. When there is steam, no, smoke come out of the engine you've heard the old saying when you grow up as a kid, the engine is a chu-chu, chu-chu engine, and the chu-chu is when that piston would go back and forth and it would cause that sound. Because of the amount of heat that is generated in these boilers, the stack that goes out of the top of the locomotive to dispel steam from the boiler is round, chimney like, for the smoke to get out. But you couldn't use a gasket under that because the heat of the steam was too hot, it would burn up everything they used for gaskets. So they had to take this stack, they called it a nozzle and they would have to machine it the best they could on a machine and then set it up on top of the locomotive. And this nozzle weighed tons—many, many pounds. Then they would put iron filings between the top of the boiler and this nozzle stand and they would just sit there and slide that back and forth using iron filings until it wore down to where the surface was smooth enough that when you bolted it down it was sealed. So they didn't use a gasket, they just tightened it up but they had to make this absolutely flat and absolutely made it and that motion back and forth wore that down, just like grinding, until it would come to the point where they could look at it and find there was no ridges or grooves. Then there were numerous bolts around this nozzle stand that hooked onto the boiler of the locomotive and pulled it down tight. He would work on that nozzle stand with the bar with arm power he would move that back and forth for days and days until it 5 got to the point where it smoothed down to where it could be bolted down to the top of the steam engine and make it hold. LR: So did you guys live close to the station then? RC: Well, we lived on 20th and Madison and this was on 22nd and Wall. So I had to go from Madison to Jefferson to Adams to Wall and over two blocks and the round house was only a block below Wall, so you could figure that I was about a half to three-quarters a mile away. On a bicycle you could do that in a short time. I would take lunch to Dad from time-to-time if he didn't have time to get it before he left. The round house is gone now; I don't remember when it was removed. The steam locomotives are gone now. You see them come with museums and as a museum and they come to Ogden once a year or so. These half a dozen in the United States go to different parts of the country so that people could see what steam locomotives were and what steam engines were. Those wheels were, some of them on those big engines were higher than a man, even some as tall as eight feet high. I don't know if you've been down to the station and seen those but that's what they do and let people come in and see those and how that was in the past years. LR: Cool. So, you would take food down to your dad. What else? I know that we, last we talked about the fact that you delivered newspapers when you were younger. CR: Well, but that didn't have anything to do with the railroad. We got off, it just so happened that 25th street was the passenger station for the passengers to board trains. I guess that's a thing of the past as well. We don't even have any passenger trains that come through Ogden anymore. We have freight that comes 6 through Ogden. But your question about newspapers. I must have been about 13 or thereabouts when that time came along that I delivered newspapers and I had a route between 24th and Lincoln to 28th and Lincoln and west as far as the tracks. As for residences, there wasn't many when you got to wall, because it was all railroad tracks. Even in that yard now, there are acres upon acres of train tracks, and they've all been removed now, except major tracks that go through. But the newspaper route I had, I only lasted about a year with that. I delivered to the residents that mostly lived on 25th street but also what residences there were, north and south sides of 25th street. On Wall there is a hotel that still stands. It's called the Royal Hotel and that was built for the porters and waiters that handled the dinner cars on the railroad and a lot of the people I delivered newspapers to lived down along Wall. There was quite a few houses between 26th and 28th street on the west side and on the eastside as well. South of 25th to 28th and then north of 25th to 24th, that's where the paper route was. I never had much to do with the people that I delivered to because someone else collected the money, the route manager usually did the collecting. LR: What do you remember about the businesses then or the buildings on 25th street during that time? CR: Well, there was a nice hotel on the northeast corner of 25th and Wall, called the Broom Hotel. It had a nice big foyer in the middle and then I don't remember how tall it was, a couple of stories I guess. It was a really nice place. Early in the years of the railroad town of Ogden there were a lot of dignitaries who would come including presidents of the United States and people from foreign 7 countries, and that was the hotel they usually stayed in. After the Broom Hotel, the new hotel was the Ben Lomond Hotel in the southeast corner on 25th and Washington so the broom hotel has been removed. But there is still some of those hotels down there on 25th that are still being used, but most of that is commercial now and it's kind of a setting of store fronts from antiques to clothing to food to anything you can think of. There have been pawn-brokers down there, even diners. In 1937, when I had my paper route, Ogden was notorious for, some call them flop houses. They were prostitution houses really. Being in a railroad town, I suppose that is to be expected. But my contact was just simply delivering papers and I only lasted about a year. As far as the buildings down there now, I find that there is much commercialism going on down on 25th street between Wall and Washington than there is on Washington now, which is kind of a turnaround—you could call 25th street kind of the old town of Ogden. LR: I know last time we talked about the JC Penny's and I can't remember how that fits into the timeline but you managed to obtain a job at JC Penny. Would you tell that story? RC: We lived on Madison Avenue between 20th and 21st on the east side and on the west side of the street lived, the manager of JCPenny, his name was Lester Bergeron, I can remember that. He walked to work. JCPenny was on the northwest corner of 24th and Washington and during that time I was putting a bicycle together. I didn't have money to buy a bike, but I scrounged up parts. Frames, wheels and handle bars and things like that and put this bicycle together. This Mr. Bergeron was seeing me because I was out in the open, I 8 didn't have any place to work in the back, I'd work on the sidewalk right in front of the house and one day he came over. I knew him, but I don't know if he knew that I knew him but anyway, he asked me if I would come to the store. I said: "Yes I'd like to." and he said: "Well, I'd like to hire you." And so I went to the store and he took me down into the basement, into a room. In those days, there were sidewalks all over Ogden by stores that had a freight entry and it was two big steel doors over a hole. The hole was about eight-foot square with these two doors at four-foot of that and they would open up from the middle and swing down and lay on the sidewalk and the freight would be delivered into those holes. From inside of those holes, they would take the freight into the different parts of the departments of the different buildings, where ever they happened to be. They opened these doors into this huge room and all I could see is cardboard boxes. He said, "Now, in those cardboard boxes are toys for Christmas and for the Christmas season." He took the first box down and opened it up and whatever was in there, you put that together. And you put that box on a pile over there. Each time you'd gain some space and pretty soon you had the room minus the boxes and full of toys. I can remember wagons, little tricycles, little scooters, little baby buggies, little trains that little kids would sit on and scoot with their feet. Numerous toys, I can't even remember all of them. That was my job and it was well worth it because it was depression time and to have a job of any kind, let alone a kid like myself, it was needed because the family was pretty destitute as far as groceries and things were concerned and that was an income. I think I made 50 cents an hour, I don't really remember. But 50 cents an hour, I don't 9 know what inflation would do with 50 cents an hour from '37 to now. That's kind of an interesting question, somebody might get ahold of that and see what its worth from them to now. I'd hate to guess. LR: I'd think it's a pretty good wage. AP: I would too. Especially for the times. LR: After you joined the military service and got back here into Ogden, you opened up your own business and were able to provide a service to Ogden. Can you talk a little bit about that? RC: When I first got out of the military, I was separated from the military in southern California. I got a job in California, for the state of the California. Kind of an interesting thing that happened there. I was in my grubbies, I was working on my car and I passed the employment service and I walked in. I had kind of a greasy t-shirt and whatever you have working on a car and they wouldn't give me the time of day. They thought I was a vagrant I suppose and I walked out of there and I thought, "Well, that was a dumb thing to do," Since I was an officer in the Navy and I actually flew airplanes in the Navy, the next day I put on my uniform and walked into the employment office and boy they rolled out the red carpet and I got a job the very next day interviewing service people at the San Pedro Naval Port, where the seamen were discharged. My job was to interview them and give them the certain options they had and answer questions they had ask employment and some of the things that were available to returning veterans there. My point about this is that if you are looking for employment, just simply be prepared and dress like you need a job and want one. It wasn't too many years 10 ago, I volunteered for about 11 year's right here, in my later life to give people pointers on employment because I had my own business. My employment was in California. I used to go around to different businesses and see if they would employ people and I became interested in utility trailers, box trailers. I guess the common name for them now is U-Haul, but I thought that it would be a good thing to do. I didn't see any when I was still here in Ogden so I bought 30 of them. I had them built, just the frames of them. I had them shipped from California to Ogden and put them together here, such as putting the boards on for the side walls, boards for the floors and I had to get tires and tubes for the wheels to put them together so they could be useable. This was in July of 1946. I was separated out of the Navy in December of '45, so were talking about a six month period from the time I was released from the Navy to when I got back here in Ogden. I had them shipped to my parents' home—ended up on the River Bridge at 1828 Washington which was right on the river, on the east side, right on the river bank. It was a small building I rented from an individual. I had about a third of an acre around there and I set the trailers out on the ground and I rented them out. I provided a service to people that needed to haul things and go hunting with them, a lot of things like that—kind of a forerunner to what's going on nowadays. Trailer businesses are immense now. I went on that river bridge in 1946 and was there until 1951. That year the river flooded and it sort of wiped out the ground part that I was located on. I had to run it all by myself because there wasn't income for anybody else. I kept track of where the trailers were rented, where the people lived that rented them and I put 11 them on a map of the city and kind of watched where the dots were. It moved the center point of where I figured was a good place to be, quite a ways south. I ended up at 3776 Wall Avenue. This was on the east side of Wall and at that time there had been a shop building built by the person in the iron railing business and he quit or retired or something and I took that property over. Interesting thing, if you went south on Wall Avenue from Ogden City when you got to 36th street, between there and Riverdale Road, there was nothing but dirt then. So I had to go up 36th to Lincoln and then South to get onto Riverdale Road, but my strategy was to move to where there was sort of a center point of the area and that's why I went out there. I expanded on that building, I hired different people to work for me from time to time. Otherwise, I pretty much had to do things myself. I'd go from sort of hand to mouth for income, which I guess you could say wasn't a very good idea, but it worked out. I built an addition to that building and then in about in 1951 or '52 along in there. Now, before I went in the service, I had a friend, I asked him if he would like to join the business. Because he had a job and there wasn't enough income for both of us, he had to stay with the job he had until we could build a store. Then we pretty much turned partners for the next 34-35 years. I ended up with frontage on Riverdale Road and Wall Avenue and all that area through there. Actually, I was in South Ogden City. Where Chimes View Drive runs through the property was the border line between Ogden and South Ogden and I was on the Southside. So I was actually in South Ogden. I went from trailers to rental equipment, wheel barrows, cement mixers, tillers, and all kinds of different equipment and ended up as a RV dealer selling 12 travel trailers and motorhomes, pick-up campers and all that type of thing. I retired in 1986 after 40 years in that. LR: So from your vantage point, as you were able to watch Ogden grow and expand, was it interesting to see how Ogden changed? RC: Oh man, sure it was! Actually, on the corner of 36th and Lincoln, there was a drive-in theater there. It was a night-time thing and I could've bought that corner that time for $25,000, I remember that, but I could barely come up with the $8,000 it took to buy the place that I had bought at 3776 Wall. Now, if you fast forward from 1946 until now you got that whole corner that is Costco and it takes most everything from 36th street to the bluff of the road that drops down into the property of Costco, and the only other thing on the corner is the America First Credit Union there. Interestingly enough, I don't know how long they've been there or when they came, but now the America First Credit Union is building a building on the corner, the northwest corner of Washington and 21st street and going from there, as far as expanding is concerned—and gracious me, as far as the growth of Ogden. When I was living on Madison in the first part of my school days, I went to the Dee School in first grade, to the Madison school on 24th and Madison for something like the fifth grade and then went up to 27th and Adams for Central Junior High School and then to Ogden High School for graduation from Ogden High in 1940. I went three years at Ogden High. Getting back to what I first started to tell you, I can remember a black smith's shop between 22nd and 23rd on the east side of Washington that took big work horses and saddle horses and put shoes on the horses. I was going to try to 13 tell you the name of the black smith in there, I can't quite remember that but maybe I will. I can remember going into that blacksmith's shop and watching him take just a rod of iron and putting it in a hearth and getting it red hot and pounding it on, part of a railroad track, actually they called it an Anvil, and he'd hammer that flat and make it into the shape of a horse shoe and punch holes into it and nail it onto a horse's hoof. Some of those work horse's had hooves as big as a dinner plate, I can tell you that for sure. Interesting that he could put what you call a cork on those shoes. He would bend the iron down on the back of the two pointed edges and the circle part on the front he pounded out a cork, they call them a cork, it was a wedge that would clip into the ground for the horse instead of having just a flat horseshoe, they would have three corks that would dig into the earth, so they couldn't slip when they were going. Later on, I can remember, it might even been that same black smiths shop, a car dealer, sold cars in there. His name was Jesse Chase and they were lined up in this building. I guess he had about 50 cars in there. Further south, there was implement dealers, those buildings right now are being renovated. There's sports stores in there but they were originally used to sell Conestoga Wagons. The wagons like the pioneers came across the plains in. They sold plows, bailing machinery and tractors, swaths, cutting, hay cutting machines, hay bailer machines. I think it was called Steven's Implement Company. Further south and back behind the Ben Lomond Hotel on Ogden Avenue between 25th and 26th was the old Weber Central Dairy. You could go in there and you could buy a cup of buttermilk for a nickel and if you didn't have the 14 nickel you got the buttermilk anyways because it was depression time. In those early days, boy, I'll tell you, a lot of kids and a lot of people would end up down there getting that buttermilk. I don't know how they work things out now at dairies for buttermilk but we got buttermilk then. That brings me to another story when we lived at 2026 Madison. About the same times as the JC Penny circumstance. I got the idea that I wanted to be a cowboy and I wanted a horse and the stadium down by the river at the end of Madison avenue, north and down to the river was my motivation. They started rodeos down there in 1935. My dad says: "I don't know how we can work out having a horse," but he thought about it a little bit. Over in the north side of the cemetery on the east side of Madison at about the 19th block, there was Wheelwright Construction Company. They had a gravel pit and springs which ran water west to Madison. My dad contacted the Wheelwright Construction Company and wanted to know, could we put a corral on that stream so that the horse could have drinking water and I could have my horse. The downside of that was we had to take cow because we couldn't afford to feed a horse, but we could take the milk and sell it to buy hay for the cow and the horse and we worked it out that way so I could have my horse. That summer, I rode down Madison north down to the river to the bottom of the hill, down the flat part—you can go down there anytime and see that it's blocked off from Madison, but you can still go down to the river and see it. In 1935 there was a rodeo guy in a tent there and his name was Monty Montana. He was hired by the first rodeo committee to be a trick rider and a roper. Because I was on my horse, I ended up riding for him to 15 practice down on that flat. Then, when he went into the rodeo, I hauled all of those ropes in there for him to use each night they had that rodeo. I can remember a lot of the people down in the Ogden Stadium, I can't remember all their names but I can remember a couple people, some people I would even remember now. There was a man by the name of Yakama Kunut, there was a man by the name of Jazbo Fulkerson, there was Monty Montana, and Slim Pickens was also one of the guys that would come to perform at the rodeo in the rodeo season. There were numerous other people I never did get acquainted with. I was enthused by it because I thought it something I would be as a cowboy someday. LR: And you ended up with your own business selling trailers. RC: I ended up with my own business. LR: Good for you. RC: I don't know if you wanted to go back to England about something, when I was in the military. Is that interesting at all? LR: If you would like to talk about it. RC: Well, I spent the year of 1944 in England and I was flying as a pilot in a four-engine bomber and our mission was to keep the German U-boat from knocking out our shipping. And the R&R, the recreation part of our stay in England was a pub. The people over there at the pub, when they would see movies from The United States, they saw John Wayne and people like him and others that were in movies, they found out I'm from Utah and since I didn't look like an Indian, I had to be a cowboy. As far as they knew, there were only cowboys and 16 Indians in Utah; that was the mindset of the people over there. This pub, I mean they were just local people, farmers mostly. There wasn't much of anything commercial but this big airport nearby. But anyway, trying to get on with the story, this one farmer, he had a horse and every time he would get on it, it would buck him off. They got to reasoning that if I was a cowboy from Utah and wasn't an Indian that I was able to do something with horses to keep them from bucking people off. I didn't have much of a choice. I got kind of ramrodded into that situation. So, I agreed to do that because I grew up pretty much with horses. I made a date and went over to this guy's place and so help me that was the biggest, tallest horse I've ever seen in my life. It wasn't anything like the ones I rode at home. I had to get up on to that horse and I looked at the thing they called a saddle, it looked more like a postage stamp to me. It wasn't very big. It had a seat alright, but no horn to hang onto, no pommel, no back seat or anything like that. But it did have straps across the back and across the front of that saddle and they could adjust those straps to the girth that went around the belly of the horse. Depending on how far the withers was up on the back of the horse so that the saddle would fit. If you'd lengthen the back strap and shorten up the front strap, the saddle would go forward. If you'd lengthen the front strap and tighten up the back straps, it would push the saddle back. So I looked at the straps and by the time I got through looking, I noticed that the buckle, on the right rear of the saddle that the buckle was flopped clear over and twisted for some reason or another I couldn't figure that out at the time. I undone the buckle and hooked the strap so that it was flat. In my head I got to thinkin', "That buckle was 17 twisted and that buckle stood up on its edge rather than flat." My mind said to me, 'When that guy as he rode he hit the seat of that saddle and that saddle hit that buckle and that buckle would hit those ribs and off he'd come." And that's the first thing I did is flatten that out. So, in order to get on that horse, he had to give me a leg and practically throw me up. When I got up there and get in the saddle, he backed up because he knew that I was going to get piled off, but nope! I just road that horse all over the place, just had a blast. I looked at the ground that was all plowed out there and thought, "Well, if I got bucked off, that's not too bad to land on." But, you know, I gained the reputation of the world's best cowboy over there in England at that pub because I fixed that buckle and I never told them that I changed that buckle, I just let them believe that I was a pretty good cowboy. LR: That's a great story, thank you for sharing it. Coming back into the United States now, there was another story that you told that we would love to hear again. It was about the Ogden City Cemetery when you graduated from high school, the pick-axe and the shovel. RC: Okay, alright. The year is 1940, the year I graduated from high school. In the spring of that year the individual that was a cemetery sextant, was a member of the bishop of the church and he looked out for youngsters. I was pretty ambitious and I got hired. There were about six teams of adults and a younger person like myself and we had a part of the cemetery to cut grass. Ours went from Jefferson to Madison, back to the middle of the cemetery up to Madison and back to 20th and that square was our part. We had a push mower, a real type of mower where 18 the blades twirled and cut the grass that way. There was enough grass in the area that it took five days to mow and you'd get to the point where you would start over each week. Sometime during that summer time there were more graves to be dug than grave-diggers. So they recruited a couple of us guys, but I guess I can only remember myself, but they drove four stakes in the ground and said here is a pick and here is a shovel. Go ahead and dig that hole down in between those four points until you can't see over the top of the ground and that's going to be the grave for some individual. You'd pitch the dirt out on a pile and then you'd put an artificial grass mat over that pile to sort of hide the looks of it. Nowadays they haul that away. So in 1940, I did that and I'll fast forward to 1980, I'm a lot older and an adult now and I was called as the bishop of the ward that we live in, and as I was released from that position, the person by the name of Scott Smeddon, who happened to also be a school teacher as well as the Mayor of Ogden City, was called to fill the position of the bishop. I sat with him as kind of a courtesy to help him get the feel of conducting a funeral. Much to my surprise when we got to the cemetery, this is 40 years since I dug that grave. But guess what I saw there. I saw a dump-truck, a backhoe and a pick-up and there were five people there. There was a woman in the pick-up and a man in the dump-truck and a man on the backhoe and two other men leaning on shovels. And that whole scene was duplicated by my pick and shovel 40 years earlier. I did everything with a pick and shovel that they did with a dump truck, backhoe, pick-up and five people. That was a real surprise to me. It was interesting 19 because, I don't know, it's progress. I told Scott about that and he said, "Well, look at all the people you keep off the street nowadays." AP: You mentioned that you went to Ogden High School. Were you the second class of graduating seniors? RC: No. I think I was about the third class as I recall. I think '38, '39 and '40 graduated from Ogden High. I'm not positive about that but I'm quite sure that's about it. Because my brother whose older than I graduated from Ogden High, which is on the corner of 25th and Madison, before the building of the Ogden High School up at 28th and Harrison. They had an ROTC in the school. I didn't care for that. I just took a gym class instead. I didn't like those wool uniforms in the summertime. AP: I can't blame ya. LP: Yeah, yeah they do. I agree. AP: Do you remember anything else about Harm Perry? You said he started the rodeo—The Days of 47 Rodeo? RC: Not really. I can remember that his daughter, Rosanne, graduated from Ogden High the same year that I did. In fact, I think that was their only child, that Harm and his wife, Rosanne Perry, who is still living I'm quite sure. A good person. I was quite friendly with her. We had about 600 people in the class of Ogden High at that time I think. Probably one of the most interesting things that happened in that year at Ogden High was the choir, which I was in, went to the Music Educators National Conference in Los Angeles that year and performed in a Western United States, all by invitation. I don't remember how many people went, but I think we were restricted to about 50 or 60. Some kids didn't get to go 20 because they had to balance out among the four parts of the choir but I went. Other than that, there wasn't much that went on, as far as high school is concerned. I can't think of anything notorious. I did tumbling and that kind of exercise, climb ropes up to the ceiling and things like that. I did think about something though, I got pretty good at walking on my hands and I could walk around the entire gym on the black line, on my hands, clear around the perimeter of the basketball court, feet in the air. Nobody else could do that, I was the only one who did that. I don't want to brag. LR: It's okay. AP: Was your business close to 25th and Wall? RC: No, my business life was mostly at 37th and Wall. So, as far as the Union Station is concerned, going back to my father working for the Southern Pacific Railroad, I used to go to the Union Station a lot because we used to have passes on the train. Anywhere that the Southern Pacific went, we could get on the train free and ride. I spent my summers in California because my father's brother, Uncle Leo, lived in Alameda, California. The bridge that goes from San Francisco to over the bay area wasn't built then, it was a ferry boat then all the time. I spent two or three weeks down there each summer. I would get on the ferry first thing in the morning, with a pass to stay on it all day long and I would just watch the seagulls and watched ships and things go back and forth. Conductors never did bother us on the train cause they didn't even care about us, we just had a pass to California and back. 21 AP: You made a comment last time about how Ogden kind of changed after the railway kind of moved to Salt Lake. RC: Well, we don't even have any Amtrak in Ogden; we did have Amtrak for a while. I don't know how many years it's been gone. In the early part of the railroad, as far as the station and that was concerned, Ogden was more of a railroad town that Salt Lake because the trains came out of Weber Canyon from across Wyoming on the Union Pacific and join here. That sort of quit. I don't remember especially, it just sorta faded away like things do. You go from horses to cars and nowadays, we go from snail-mail to no mail at all, as far as first-class mail is concerned. I think we're in a world of hurt about the post office department right now. Technical advances in cyber-space has done so much. Looking at that camera now it's pretty small compared to in the past. The automobiles we're driving now and everything. People in space. Right now, in the paper this morning, it talked about two different private firms of delivering cargo to the space station, and doing it successfully, that's NASA and it's on its way out. LR: So did the closing of the railroad actually hurt a lot of the businesses on 25th street, did that effect your business at all? RC: No. Not as far as my business is concerned. LR: So it really was just centered, it really just hurt those on 25th street then. RC: Yeah. The only thing about 25th street is that it has lived with run down stores and run down places for years and years until the last 10 or so years and now it's back in full swing again. It's a lively part of Ogden and it's a vital part of Ogden as far as Saturday things that's going on. The farmers market is down there and 22 things like that. There is the federal building down there that's replaced some of the other stores. Golly, I wish I could remember all of the other names of some of these stores that it used to have. One of the famous stores in the Ogden City at that time was Ross and Jack's Café, its right where the bank sits on the corner of 25th and Washington. Not too many places I can recall but that was something that was pretty prominent was this particular café. You could buy a hamburger for a nickel. Actually, the movie picture building is interesting. It was the Egyptian Theater that has now been turned into a big commercial place for businesses and things that come in. But half a block west was the Paramount Theater on Ogden Avenue. Then there was the Lyceum Theater on 25th street, just below Grant on the south side, there was a moving picture firm east of Washington on the south side, no, the north side of 25th street. I forget the name of that one. There used to be a place called the White City, it was a ballroom up there on 25th Street. and it really a nice pretty place, people danced there. And then down on 24th, on the south side just below Grant is the Berthana, but that building is still there. They're going to renovate that, it was a dance hall that was really famous and they turned it into a roller-skating rink later on and now it's back refurbished to some degree. We used to go to dances down there but. So right now I'm so surprised when I drive around Ogden to see the many, many residential areas being built. Clear up to the mountain behind Weber State College, clear up to the shoreline of the old Bonneville Lake, even beyond when you get a little further south in to the Uinta area, that's even above the shoreline area, there is even homes up 23 there overlooking the city and going clear-out where it joins Harrisville and North Ogden. It's absolutely amazing. LR: I just have one more question, I don't know about you, Avery, but Ross and Jack's made me think of this. What was your favorite restaurant on 25th street? If you had you pick one of the many that were there. RC: As a restaurant is concerned, I didn't have any money to buy meals out of a restaurant. I could go to Ross and Jack's café and buy but it never dawned on me as a youth to go to restaurants and far be it for my family to either. But obviously there were some there. Most of them, you would find they were in the hotels like they still are. There are only one or two things I can think of—noodle parlors, there was one on Ogden Avenue and one down 25th street that's recently been terminated as far as a restaurant, it sits vacant right now. But noodle parlors were prominent for a lot of years. As far as steak-houses and things like that, like you think of now, that wasn't even part of my vocabulary even. LR: I can relate to that. Well, I am so grateful for the time you have given us and the stories you have shared about Ogden and some of your adventures. We appreciate your time and thank you so much for allowing us to do this. RC: Well, it kind of turned out to kind of be a pleasure to me. I got a kick out of it. 24

Jayeson Vance Leading Tour at Alcatraz, 2012 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Jayeson Vance. The interview was conducted on October 10, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Jayeson discusses memories of Ogden and 25th Street. ; 35p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Jayeson P. Vance Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 10 October 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Jayeson P. Vance Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 10 October 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Vance, Jayeson, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 10 October 2013 , WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Jayeson Vance Leading Tour at Alcatraz 2012 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Jayeson Vance. The interview was conducted on October 10, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Jayeson discusses memories of Ogden and 25th Street. LR: Today is October 10, 2013 doing a phone interview with Mr. Jayeson Vance who is currently residing in San Francisco, about 25th street and Ogden. My name is Lorrie Rands and I will be conducting the interview. Jayeson, I, again, appreciate your time and your willingness to help us out with this. Let's begin with the simple basics of when and where were you born? JV: I was born at the old St. Benedict's hospital on 29th and Polk in Ogden, on June 26, 1947. LR: Where did you reside, where was your home in Ogden? JV: Our home was, when I was a boy, we were, first we lived in a post war housing, emergency housing for the GI's. My dad was at Hill Field as an Air Force Sergeant, an Army Air Corp Sergeant. That was at the old Bonneville Park, as they used to call it. It was an old cinder block, post war or emergency housing that, I don't know who paid for, probably the federal government. Then they, at some point around 1950 or 51, they destroyed those homes and we, my dad was able to get a home on 1362 Hudson, between 5th and 6th on, at just above Harrison, and we were just a quarter block below Polk. That's where I spent my early years and then we later moved to 108 Harrison, at first and Harrison. LR: So was Harrison at that time, was it paved all the way through? 1 JV: Yes, Harrison was paved, Hudson was primitive, it was unpaved, thank you for asking. We actually did not even have a phone in the house and my mother had to walk to Hudson and Polk, to a little phone booth as did all the neighbors in order to place a phone call. Actually, it seems funny now, and the street was dirt and it had a curb and gutter but it didn't have the sidewalks and it didn't have, you know, it was very primitive. It was like living out on the frontier in a way, and my grandfather used to say, "You can hear the coyotes at night up there where you live." He lived on 256 Harrisville Road which is still there, that structure is still standing. LR: You grew up then in that part of Ogden? JV: Yea, on that northeast bench, I went to Ben Lomond High and then my dad had gone to Weber and my mother, actually my mother was a USU graduate. I just said, "Well," I couldn't decide what to do after I graduated from Ben Lomond, so I decided on Weber, which was a great choice. I was pleased with, I always thought it had the best—a lot of people say about Weber that we had better professors than bigger schools because you didn't have teaching assistants teaching classes, you had Ph.D.'s teaching classes quite often and so I think in some ways we got a much better education at Weber than people maybe at the University of Utah had in some ways, so anyway, it was a good time to go to Weber. I briefly was the sophomore class president for a brief while, filled in for Mike Howe I believe was his name, cause he couldn't finish his term. My name at that time, I changed my name in 1982, and my born name was Clark Walker. So that's always strange, and I have to explain that, that I 2 changed my name. I was one of those kids that had kind of an identity crisis and so my legal name is Jayson P. Vance. I don't know how much you want to know about my personal life, but just to explain, if you look me up, you'll find me under Clark Walker. Weber State records, well, except I changed my diploma reads Jayeson Vance now, so I had that changed. LR: So, I'm just curious, why did you choose Jayeson Vance? JV: It was just one of those things that I had a friend who was a counselor, which said, "It's time for a change." I had just left a federal job and I wanted a new start in life and she said, "This would be a good time to change." She had done this to, she had changed her name and she said, "I don't know, it's great," and she was able to persuade me that I should do it. Then once you do that, and we'd had a house so we had to change the mortgage records so then and I had to go to court, to district court and officially change my name by law. I can't ever use the old name again and legally, so anyway, I have, for better or worse, that's my name. So I just have to accept that. In some ways I felt shouldn't be changing that because it's my family history, but then as I researched my family history, I found out that my father's father, who was an English immigrant during World War I, which is kind of odd, how do you get to where my father was born in California? It's a long story, but his father deserted the family, his name was reputedly, Sylvester Hodgson Walker. He deserted this mother and this infant boy, who was my father and said, "I'm a British subject, I don't want to have a kid." And he ran off to Canada, and he said, "You can't touch me, I'm a British subject." I don't even really know the man's name, I never saw a picture of him 3 and it's one of these great mysteries of life that I would love to see at least what he looked like and how did he end up in California during World War One. The British would have wanted any young man to be in the Army or something and so it's a—was his name really Walker, you know, all these mysteries like that. I didn't feel troubled about dropping the name Walker, so that's, anyway, we got off on a tangent. LR: No, that's great, I asked so, let's go ahead and go back then. You said that your dad worked at Hill Field as a sergeant in the Army Air Corps, what did your mom do? JV: My mother was a teacher in her later years, well, when they were first married she was a school teacher, then she dropped her job as a teacher to be a house wife and about 1959 she went back to Ogden public schools, worked at Edison school teaching second grade. Her name was Bonnie Ruth Murphy Walker and she passed away this month, just earlier this month, ten years ago the start of this month, she's been dead 10 years now. The family is all gone, my brother, my father and my mother are all gone and my wife and I live here. LR: You're kind of cutting out on me. JV: Oh, maybe if I hold the microphone up closer here. LR: I'm not sure if it's you or if it's me. That seems to be better, okay. I hate it when I get off on my flow. As you were growing up, what were some of the things you liked to do for fun? JV: I used to draw maps of the city actually. I loved history form early on. I read Land Mark Books, I was a boy scout. I got an Eagle Scout Award, I was an Eagle 4 Scout. I was very interested in police and crime, the FBI. I wanted to be an FBI agent at one time and I studied the history of, I was reading adult literature written for adults about the FBI, you know like the FBI story by Glen Whitehead I think it is, when I was twelve. I was trying to—it was not easy to read—but I was trying and I was just obsessed with that stuff and I saw the world very black and white, in a very black and white way. I remember giving—I had some really conservative, very, very conservative opinions about law and order and I wanted to—we had some milk stolen and I wanted my mother so badly to call the police department because I wanted to look at a real policeman in the face and we hardly had any crime in that area. I was so excited that was my amusement, anything to do with law and order or police, any TV show, Texas Rangers or Broderick Crawford, who starred in California Highway Patrol or anything like that. The Lone Ranger and all that stuff, I just loved all that. We played Army, it was post World War Two so we had, almost everybody I knew was the son or the daughter of a GI or a sailor from World War Two or a Marine. We had tons of Army Men and toys about World War Two and I had a whole Army and Navy set of toys that I just spent hours with. Then we would—the little kids in the neighborhood—we'd organize into tiny army, little army training things. Then I would build little model cities in the back yard with rocks and build a highway. I had a lot of fun doing that. I made a model of Ben Lomond peak at one time in my back yard out of clay and rocks and so I had a lot of fun as for Mount Ben Lomond and all that. I tried to make of Ogden out of rocks but it was a little over whelming. 5 LR: I'll bet. So did you ever have the chance to meet any Ogden Police officers when you were younger? JV: Yea, one of my friends, Gary Greenwood, became a police officer in Ogden and he and I were golfing buddies for quite a while, and I met him, just before I moved out of Ogden—I got married and moved away, I remember seeing him in his uniform with his shoes all polished. I was so proud of him and I so wished that I could be like him, be a policeman, but I never became a policeman, I became a park ranger. Not quite the same, but he was just kind of an inspiration when I saw him standing there with his highly polished shoes and his nice neat uniform and he was very proud of it, rightly so. I lost track of him, I would like to talk to him again but I tried to locate him on the internet and he was a probation officer for a while and I couldn't find any more about him. I haven't, if you know him or anybody knows him, I would love to talk to him. He was a great guy. I'm just joining the auxiliary law enforcement team here for the San Francisco police, I just applied to join that. It's a volunteer position, but my fantasy, my interest in crime and law and order has been lifelong. I guess it's no wonder I ended up on Alcatraz. LR: Did you ever hang out downtown? JV: Yea, we did, one of my stronger memories, my father would take me, well my father was a—after he left the Army Air Corps, he became a postman at the main post office and then later Gorder's station as they used to call the post office over there on the bench. He was, his route was the businesses along 25th and along Washington. He was the downtown postman, and he would drive all the 6 packages, they didn't have a UPS, and he would do all the package deliveries all over downtown. He was a gun lover, he loved guns and there was a gun shop on 25th that he loved to go to. He knew 25th very well, he knew the Porters and Waiters Club, he took me into the Depot Drug and there was some girly magazines one time. Oh, it was a little embarrassing, I was going through puberty. Oh we looked at those girly magazines a little bit, but that was among little things like that that I remember. Depot Drug was a hive of activity. It was scary, it was frightening, but it was exciting also. They had these barrels of toys. I loved anything with a plastic army man, or army soldiers like that, and they had just piles of that stuff. Even in the front window, or I think it could even have been on the sidewalk, I could remember my heart just pounding about it, and I only got to go in there a couple of times, but it was a just a hive of excitement. There was also a fear about 25th of course, the legend of all the possibility of heroin and prostitution and all those things that were going on around there. I could even I guess sense it in my father that he was a little bit on edge, but he never had anyone bother him or threaten him in any way while he was delivering mail. He had some rude business people that were pretty rude to him, you know, kind of abusive, but he didn't ever have any threats. He was very close with the black community in Ogden, he knew a lot of the black folks and he was very pro civil rights and he felt that they had gotten the bad end of the deal. The Porters and Waiters Club was famous, of course, for the railroad porters that worked on the Union Pacific that brought Jazz to Ogden. 7 It was also a street of sin certainly. Later in life, my best man at my wedding was Arnie Jacobson and his father was chief Jacobson of the Ogden police. Arnie told me some stories, but these are now second hand stories that he got from his father, so I don't have direct access to that information but it came through Arnie. His father put on black face because they didn't have any black police officers and went down onto 25th to purchase heroine, because the dealers on 25th were black. They did make some arrests and the Ogden police were known as the toughest police in Utah because of the street, because of patrolling 25th street they had to be tougher than the Salt Lake police, according to Arnie anyway. They would have this annual football, I believe football game between the Ogden Police and the Salt Lake police and the Ogden police would always win because they had to be tougher, even though it was a smaller department by far than the Salt Lake department. It really had quite a story there, I mean you could write a lot of, I could easily see someone writing a novel or a historical novel about it. Maybe that's what I should do, I don't know. Then my mother told me about working at the Union Laundry but she did all that Union Pacific linen as a young woman. She was a pretty young brunette and her father, Clarence Murphy, would warn her, he was a Union Pacific engineer. "Now Bonnie, you get down to Washington Boulevard and get on that street car and you run to Washington Boulevard," or somebody told her, or she told me that she was so scared on 25th that she ran all the way from Wall Avenue to Washington Boulevard as fast as she could run to get to Washington Boulevard to where she felt safe, and then get on the street car to go north to 8 Harrisville Road where they lived. She had a palpable fear of that street but she again never had anything happen to her so it just, there's a lot of stuff about that street. I've seen that, I don't know you've probably seen that DVD that that fellow put out about the history of Ogden I imagine. Are you aware of that one? LR: Yes, The one that was in 2007 or 11, not too long ago? Yes. JV: They explained that, I guess they alleged that Al Capone may have been on 25th, which I've never found any—I tried because I studied Al Capone quite a bit having been on Alcatraz where he was locked up for about five years, and I've never found any evidence, have you? To support that he was ever there. LR: I haven't, the only thing I have heard about are the rumors. JV: Yea, it's just legendary. When I worked on Alcatraz we'd have people from Canada and Saskatchewan Province was a place where he was reputed to have been. Oh, Al Capone, you hear this all the time, in Wisconsin he went to honey lodges and it is conceivable that he may have been in Ogden that he was really on, and it was called Little Chicago at one point. It was one of the nick names of Ogden, of that area of Ogden as you may know already. Of course, today, it's a very different street than it was and I'm looking at a picture of it right now, a modern picture. I guess there were some movies made there with that famous noddle parlor sign? LR: Yea, the Star Noodle, the one with the dragon? JV: There was a little China town there too of course, from the Chinese workers on the railroad. My grandfather, as a boy, his mother died when he was a youngster and his father was of course a railroad worker too, an engineer, and he was 9 basically raised himself on the streets. This would have been about 1900 or 1905 around in that era, used to run opium on a bicycle around China, the little Ogden, and helped these opium dealers. It was legal at that time to sell opium, and he would, as reprehensible as it sounds now, would sell opium to the Chinese, and make a little money that way, because they didn't have much money. He and his sister and his father, no mother, were kind of, you know, they had some kind of rough edges in his early years, and he remembered being pretty mean to some of the Chinese as a teenage boy, pulling there queue's. They used to wear their hair in queue's on the back of their head, doing some mean things like that and of course the Chinese were abused everywhere. Out here in San Francisco they were abused even more. The word Chink was frequently passed around. It was a racist time it was not fun to be black or Chinese in those days. It was rough for a lot of people. LR: So did you ever witness any of that discrimination in that part of Ogden? JV: No, that was way before my time. I think it went underground, I'm sure there was a feeling that Asians were odd or you know, they were kind of a curiosity. I don't remember. We used to eat at the Utah Noodle Parlor a lot and have the other—I forget the other noodle parlor name on Grant there. We used to, and we enjoyed all the food, the chop suey and all those things. So you'd hear little remarks like that, that were racists but it was, and of course it was. My grandfather had actually been a member of the Klan when he was a youngster. He had no education, he was brought up on the streets and he picked up whatever he picked up, and he picked up a lot of racists attitudes. I remember he, as a young 10 man—he wasn't that in his older years—but as a young man, there was a Klu Klux Klan Chapter there in Ogden. The Klan was all over the United States if you study the history of the Klan and it was very powerful in the early twenties and that's about the time he was starting his family. My grandfather was out there on Harrisville Road, but he I guess they had some Klan meetings up on the foothills in the early twenties where they burned crosses and stuff up on the foothills above. You can imagine how it must have felt to be a black person and see that going on, especially a tiny minority, there in that part of the world. A feeling, you must have been pretty much an emotional, a very unpleasant emotional experience anyway for a black or an Asian too. I think they were pretty mean to Asians, the Klan was, as well. He never said much about that, he did express racist attitudes which were part of that generation, occasionally. I had that wonderful contrast in my father who just really loved the black folks in Ogden. Marshall White, the police officer who was killed there, who was a hero of the police department. After they finally got a black officer, and then he got killed, but it was a rough town. There was somewhat open prostitution, if I remember, right along parts of Grant Avenue and Lincoln Avenue. Even in my early years, even as late as maybe 19, probably about 1970 even, there was still open prostitution going on, it was very limited, but it was there. As I've studied the street I know there was a back alley that ran heroin and a tunnel that ran heroin from the depot all along, I think on the north side of the street. Maybe that tunnel is still there, I've seen 11 some references that indicate that the tunnel went all the way to the Ben Lomond Hotel apparently. Are you aware of that? LR: I'm aware more of the rumors. JV: I saw something online about historic tunnel tours of Ogden and they, if I remember correctly were going into the basement of the Ben Lomond Hotel and somebody was leading a ghost tour or something like that. They were able to go under Washington Boulevard possibly and they said, "Well, who knows." Of course they want to enlarge everything and make it more exciting so they bring in Al Capone and all that. The danger of history is always that somebody tries to enlarge things or exaggerate things. I was never able to see that myself and I didn't even know, I'd heard rumors about it but I've never been in it. LR: Well I know that most of the businesses now have closed up there tunnels, so most of the people we have talked to, yea, it's possible, but now they're all closed up so. But yea, we've had a lot of references to them, a lot of people that remember being down in them, but none actually going form Ben Lomond to the depot. We can't actually verify that, so. It's fun to hear about though. JV: Well that was the big fancy hotel, I guess the Ben Lomond was built about 1927, and being a big, the highest building in town and anybody who wanted a prostitute probably would have wanted to bring them in underground into the hotel or something like that, or wanted maybe drugs and happened to be at the hotel. It does kind of make sense if you were in the, in the world of vice and you had money enough to stay in a nice room there and you wanted something, knowing the hotel business as I do, because I worked with it for a while here, 12 there are people in the hotels are bribable a lot of times, and if you want—they want some cash and if you have the cash, they'll find a way to get you what you want. Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised, I don't have any evidence of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was something like that going on. LR: I wouldn't be surprised either. Do you remember any of the people that used to live or work on 25th street? JV: Yes. Well, my mother worked at the Union Laundry I guess it was called as a— this would have been—she was born in 1919, so it would have been roughly around the time she graduated from Ogden High in 1938. So she was working at the Union Laundry, and that's where that tale about running down the street as fast as she could run, her heart pounding came from, that era. And then my grandfather, Clarence Patrick Murphy, a real Irish name, half Danish, but in fact his mother was Danish. He was working there from about age 16 and he was born about 1885 I believe, so he would have been there about 1901 and he was already working as a fireman as a teenage boy. He couldn't finish school, at Sacred Heart School on upper 25th where he went. He would bend over all the way to Wyoming shoveling coal. He told a tale later that even as a 16 year old boy of working with his back bent to shovel coal all the way from Ogden to Evanston and back just almost constantly shoveling coal to get up that grade to that high plateau in Wyoming. It was not the life that any of us would want to live I am sure, to spend back breaking hours to make a living. He was a devoted member of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineman and Firemen throughout his life and was a lifelong democrat of course, because of the 13 Democrats alliance with the labor unions. He was also one of the shop stewards of the Union Pacific in his later years. He also worked on the old Oregon Shortline Railroad, which was, he fondly would say, "Oregon Shortline," and his eyes would drift off as he thought about it. I guess the Oregon Shortline was, ran from Ogden to Pocatello, if I'm not mistaken, and didn't obviously it didn't go all the way to Oregon. He was the switching engineer which would be, he would build trains by bringing cars from one train and hauling them to join another train and then back and forth all day in the yards of Ogden. He'd go over those yards, and of course today, there's even I guess some activity there, but back in those days the yards were just a hive of energy and the sound of the rails and the squeaking of the iron against iron and you would hear all the noises associated with all that. The station where I went as, this would have been approximately 1955. My grandmother, my California grandmother, my father's mother, would come up from across the Lucin Cutoff across the Great Salt Lake on the Union Pacific from Promontory Point to West Weber and she would, we'd meet her at the Union Station whenever she'd come to visit us. That's where I got to see the Union Station quite a bit as a boy. There would be three or four taxi cabs, several cars coming and going and people were dressed—in those days the women wore gloves and hats and high heels all the time and the men wore business suits and big fedora hats. The railway express, REA railway express agency had a large outlet in the foyer of the station. 14 Just going in to the foyer of the Union Depot was to me, one of the most exciting things of my childhood because I would go in there and look around and seeing people coming and going, people making orders and carrying tickets, porters carrying baggage and porters with red caps on and white uniforms and white jackets. All black men, the only black people I had ever seen at that time in my life were down in the depot. Sorry, I get a little emotional sometimes when I'm talking about these things. I have to take a breath here for a moment. There was a very busy barbershop with an old fashioned striped aprons that, or whatever they called those things that they, smocks, that they would put around people being, having their hair cut. They had the talcum powder brushes and the barber clipping away furiously, and people in a hurry to get on, "I don't want to miss my train," and all those things. The station itself, getting inside was just, it seemed like the biggest building I had ever seen in my life at that time, probably was, and it, the big chandeliers and it was just, in its heyday was just packed with passengers and train schedules and the public address system announcing what was going on. I didn't even know what the people were doing as a boy, I had no concept of what riding a train was because we didn't actually get on the trains, so we never went out on the platforms and so all I saw was just the results of all that. What I observed was a little confusing because I didn't put it together that these people are coming from California or Chicago or wherever it may be. This really was the junction city of the Mountain West and it really was a big deal. It was so sad to see the old down town, as I'm sure you've heard from a 15 lot of people, to see what happened to that wonderful downtown on Washington Boulevard. Again, that's another subject for a book you could write about, Washington Boulevard in its heyday. Beuhler Bingham and B and B Clothiers, the Blue Door and all those fabulous clothing stores and Fred M. Nye that were able, because the economy was so powerful then with Hill Field and the Army Depot and the Naval Supply Depot and all those things, and then the railroad. Everybody was making money and it was sort of the golden age of Ogden. I guess from about the end of World War Two till roughly the time I graduated from Ben Lomond, about 1965, for about those twenty years that downtown district was just thriving. There was Watson and Tanner and 24th street was almost equal to Washington and its level of commercial activity and it was a really nice feeling to the town. There wasn't a lot of crime for the most part, you didn't hear about a lot of—we had, my mother had a friend, Officer Keith Burkdahl, who was a policeman. I remember she got—I guess one of the early beat nicks, there were a handful of beatniks I guess, in Ogden, that maybe were smoking marijuana and this guy hit her at 25th and Monroe. It was at night and he had dark glasses on, and he had sideburns and this would have been 1955 or 56 around the time Elvis was big. We just thought that was so bizarre that this fellow was dressed in this leather jacket and he had sideburns and he had dark glasses on and it's nighttime, you know, why are you wearing—it is kind of odd even now. Keith Burkdahl investigated this because my mother happen to. His wife was a good friend of my mothers and he was a patrolman and so he said, "Yea, we caught 16 this guy and arrested this guy." They finger printed him and everything. I was excited by that. It was, there were some rough characters in Ogden and who knows maybe he was using heroin or something too, or maybe he was associated with 25th street, but we never found out. Whenever I would encounter the Ogden police, I can remember in 1956, the Ogden Police had four brand new blue Fords that they got and they all, they had no markings, anywhere on the car. They were painted, I think, if I remember correctly they were a dark royal blue and they had just about the size of a coffee cup, maybe a large coffee cup, on top was a red, just a red light, and that's all, and a radio antenna, and not anywhere on the car did it say police, anywhere. It just is so funny to look back at that, we'd walk through City Hall Park and of course that was the police station back then. It was in the back of the city hall building, and you'd walk through city hall park and I'd see maybe eight or nine Fords with that bubble light on top, and maybe a couple of unmarked cars. That was the, such as it was, the Ogden police at that time. There's another story, you could do the history of the Ogden Police because they must have some tales to tell if you come across one of the retiree's from the Ogden police or somebody, the son of a police officer, I'd bet you'd get some great stories. Arnie Jacobson might be a good source because his dad. I don't know what became of him, I haven't been in touch with him in years, but his dad, I know was the chief about 1970, they had the police radio in their house because his dad was the chief, so he would hear all the radio calls in Ogden as a 17 boy. You get into some personal information sometimes, but he got run out of the house. LR: Well speaking of growing up, did you ever attend any of the theaters downtown? JV: Yes, the movies? LR: Yes. JV: Yea, we loved the Orpheum, thank you for reminding me. The Orpheum and the Egyptian, but the Orpheum even more so, it was sadly destroyed. The most exciting, fun thing we ever did I think was about 1959 and Ogden was just in its glory days at that time. We, there was a girl next door, Susanne Sylvester, who I had a crush on, and I forget who else. Anyway, we were all about 12 or 13 years old and our parents escorted us, and we got all dressed up and went to, I put on a tie and a sports coat and the girls were dressed up and we just, we just thought that was the most fun we had ever had. We went to the Orpheum and saw a movie, I can't remember what the movie was now. It was just going to the theater down, either the Egyptian or the Orpheum was just one of the special things about that time in life when you are coming of age. I think for almost anyone who was there at that time would remember it well. LR: So is that the theater that had the Popeye Club? JV: I don't know. You know, I don't know about the Popeye Club. Actually when you said that it was the first time I've heard that term. LR: Oh really, okay. JV: I must have missed out. LR: It might have been Paramount. I get my theaters mixed up, I apologize. 18 JV: The Popeye Club, maybe the Paramount was, Popeye Copper Club, Ogden, or Popeye—it says here, I am doing a little web search. I remember the Paramount was where the Paramount Bowl was, is that right? LR: I'm not sure. JV: Where the river, by the river bridge? Where the Ogden sign, is that right? LR: I'm honestly not sure, I thought it was downtown myself. I know the Orpheum and the Egyptian were. I thought the Paramount was too, so. JV: Let's see here, we had a friend who lived right by the Ogden bridge, the Ogden sign, where the Ogden sign in on the east side of Washington. There was this very interesting neighborhood there that reminds, as I got older and look back at it, I thought, "Oh my gosh, that's a lot like big city's back east." It reminded me of, in some ways. I remember the Paramount Bowling alley. When you said Paramount I thought more of a bowling alley then I did of a theater. Then there was a drive in too, and there may have been called the Paramount, there was the Riverdale Drive-in, and there was a drive-in on the south end of town was the Riverdale and going up towards North Ogden was, that Harrisville area there was a drive-in out that way, the North Point Drive- In. The drive-ins, of course, when you're a teenager in those days, it was where all the necking and all that went on. Exciting dates or all the wishful thinking for boys mostly was going on. I know there was a Paramount theater, maybe if I put movie theater, Ogden Utah, my search engine isn't generating a lot right now on that. Let's see, as it opened on the, oh, here it says, "The Paramount theater opened as the 19 Alhambra theater, March 17, 1915 with a concert by the Ogden Tabernacle Choir." There's one reference there, its Cinema treasure. Oh, here we go, 2429 Keisel Avenue. LR: Ah, that's right. JV: Oh, the Alhambra. So here is a, I vaguely remember this photo, I mean this store front. It's located on Keisel, just off of, I think just off 24th, because that looks like the Fred J. Keisel building. LR: Yes, it would have been on the opposite, it would have been closer to 25th. It's actually not there anymore, they tore it down. JV: Yea, I bet it's gone. That's my granddad's era for sure, those old street lights and globe street lights and the old early automobiles. LR: What are some of your favorite memories of downtown Ogden then? JV: Well, to be honest, it was the pretty girls you would see. You would see very, very pretty girls, you'd see dozens of girls that would just you know, traffic stop kind of thing where you'd go, "wow." It was also just the feeling that it was exciting, it was a pleasant city. There was a lunch counter near 25th and Washington, Keeley's Café. You'd go in, it was a bustling café, downtown café—going in and having lunch there. There was also a toy shop near there, and my grandfather doted on me, I was his favorite, out of the five grandchildren I was the oldest one and he liked, I don't know, he and I just bonded and he would take me in as a boy and bought me a pistol set, a cowboy pistol set from this store and I don't know the name. It was a toy store near the Broom hotel and it had just all kinds of cowboy toys all 20 over the walls, and this was a pretty big, pretty large, you know, reasonably large toy store and he bought me this holster and toy gun and toy bullets and I think it was probably one of my happiest moments in childhood. Then going on that date to the Orpheum was another one. The Utah Noodle Parlor was always fun to go to and having the big butterfly shrimp that they still make I think, I think they're still there somewhere. LR: No, they actually closed down. JV: Oh, they closed down? LR: Yea, it hasn't been that long, but Utah Noodle is no more. JV: Oh, that's too bad. That was a great tradition, but I guess Jimmies Flower shop is still there probably. That was a great flower shop. I didn't know the Glassman's, I guess you've come across A L Glassman, the name A L Glassman, but he was the operator of the Orpheum it says. Have you come across the Name Ira Huggins? He was the great attorney, probably the most famous attorney in Ogden. LR: I'm not sure. JV: Ira Huggins was—my mother would speak of him very fondly. I found a URL here, its Cinema Treasures, and it has a lot about the Paramount Theater, 2429 Keisel. This might be a page you want to look at it. It's Cinematreasures.org/theaters/26282, [some of the information that follows come directly from this website.] This is a lot of information I wasn't aware of here about the publisher . Glassman, of course, owned the Standard Examiner and apparently owned this theater also at some point and one of its premier 21 attractions was Cecil B. De Mill, The Ten Commandments. In 1925 it was leased by Public Theaters and renamed Paramount Theater so it started as the Alhambra, I guess. Glassman also owned the Orpheum but he bought the Alhambra in 1923 and then, according to this web site, during the summer months, Orpheum Vaudeville moved to the Alhambra, so they had Vaudeville, wow, now that's very interesting. In 1925 the Alhambra was leased by the Publix Theaters and renamed Paramount Theater, so that's where they got the Paramount. It underwent a complete renovation and seating was reduced to 1900 one of its premier attractions was Ten Commandments. Not the one in the 1950s but the original. By 1927 the theater was under the direction of Brooklyn-born Louis Marcus, who also owned major theaters in Salt Lake, including the Capital and other theaters in Idaho. Fanchon & Marco "Ideas" supplemented the screen attractions at the Paramount. With the demise of the American Theatre in Salt Lake in 1929, the Paramount boasted being Utah's largest theatre. Wow, I didn't know any of this. In 1929 Marcus said he was selling his interest to Publix Theaters and retiring. He was elected mayor of Salt Lake from 32 and served four years and died in 1939. 1934 it came under the ownership of Paramor Theatres who also operated the Orpheum Theatre, Lyceum Theatre and Colonial Theatre. The local Ogden Theatre was an independent. So there is quite a story there of just the theater industry in Ogden. In July of 1954, Paramor Theatres completed renovations which gave it all new seating and a 42' by 21' screen. In time for Christmas 1954, a new marquee and Paramount vertical sign in addition to the Formica snack bar 22 was added to the interior. And that's when "White Christmas" came out with Bing Crosby. So, you'll probably want to look at that website for sure. LR: Yea, I wrote it down so I'll be able to. JV: It's not that much information but it has this one wonderful old photo of the Alhambra. LR: Hmm, that's cool. JV: Yea, also, I would recommend to you to see UCR.edu. LR: Right, I wrote that down too. JV: Yea, and if you can't—that website is a little obtuse—it's something like digital newspaper survey and it's California papers, but remarkably, like I say, especially the San Francisco papers, have lots and lots of Ogden's lore and stories, especially around the time of 1890 to 1930, which would be of great value to anyone doing research at the university there. Then you can form a partnership with the UC Riverside, maybe the two schools could maybe get together on helping each other, because I know that educators always need support and they have to help each other and there is always the threats of budget cuts and things like that. I know he was, that fellow at UC Riverside was saying, "Oh we've got to prove to the regents of the university that we are doing something of value to the community so that they won't shut us down." I wrote, personally when I was a park ranger, wrote a couple of paragraphs saying how much value I've gotten out of it. You're able to, or course with your printer on your computer, you're able to print stories up if you want, or photos. They also have photos too, because you're looking at the actual paper and you can see the old historic ads. 23 LR: Right, that's fun. JV: Yea, it's really fun. You sound like you're a history lover too, so you'd have a field day with that probably. LR: I have two more questions if that's alright JV: It's been a lifelong love for me. ___________ being a park ranger, it was one of the great joys of being a park ranger was being able to give history tours, you know how it's just limited to Alcatraz history, which has quite a colorful history of course. LR: I know it's kind of getting, this has kind of gone long, but I have two more questions if that is ok. JV: Yeah, sure. LR: My first one is, you talked about your grandfather being involved in the Klan in Ogden, do you know much about that? JV: No, he was, I think he was a little ashamed of it. He, I know, it's really unfortunate I can't ask any of these folks any questions or maybe my aunt, who is still alive might know something about it. She lives in Portland, Oregon. I could ask her but she would have been embarrassed about it too. I know that he talked in racial terms about when he would watch the prize fights, Gillette Prize fights on television and he would, there was definitely a palpable racism present when he would—see a black man fighting a white man or something in a Prize fight. The only reason I know about the Klan was that my mother told me that, he didn't tell me himself he was a member of the Klan. I think he was embarrassed. He was certainly not proud of it. 24 I heard, now, I'm trying to place where I heard the recollection by some, probably from my mother, that they had put some burning crosses up on, I think the north east bench, up around, somewhere around where Ben Lomond High stands today. Up on 7th or 7th street, upper 7th street probably or somewhere where it would be seen for miles around or hoped anyway. Just to terrorize the poor black folks a little more, and probably it would have been, I'm sure they didn't like Asians either, or Jews of course. There were a handful of Jewish people too in Ogden so those groups would have been not too thrilled, I'm sure, to see that. I could try and ask Aunt Patty, she's Jennings Olsen's sister by the way, my aunt. He was the professor there at Weber for many years. She may know something about it also, and if you want, I could call you back if I'm able to find out more. The KKK was organized in all 48 states in the 1920s per public television documentary. LR: It's just a curiosity. I will leave that entirely up to you. It was just a—really, someone who was involved, so I wouldn't complain but I don't want you to feel like you have to do that or anything. JV: Well, I'm always willing to help, it's fascinating. What I have found with history and the more you dig, the more interesting it is. LR: Well this is true, I agree. JV: You reminded me of that little neighborhood around the Ogden sign there on the east side of Washington that, I wish I could relive that. Also there was something— I went to visit a friend who lived right there. There was a little alley that shot off of Washington and I think it said Paramount Bowl and it was across 25 from Bigler's Desert Inn, which was an old structure that is no longer there either. We fished in the Ogden river briefly, just once, it only happened once, I went to see him and we fished in the river. It was kind of odd, it seemed like, because here it is almost like in downtown but also almost like out in the country at the same time. It was a really nice little district there that I haven't seen any photos of, but I can picture it in my head as I close my eyes I can see it. There were store fronts right the river and I think a concrete fence or something against the river bank itself, but I'm sure it's all gone now. All that's left is the historic sign there now, but it's fun to reminisce anyway. LR: Well, my last question is this, how has Ogden changed since you were growing up here, do you think? JC: It had that timing, you know, 24th and Washington was the heart of the city and it was the heart of Ogden, it really was like the heart. It was just like a human body has a heart, it was the heart of the city and it was a thriving heartbeat. I remember a young boy yelling, "Standard," and he used to actually hold up the newspaper in his arm and wave it and people would run up and buy a newspaper. It was from the Bon Marché store which was at 22nd to about 26th or 27th along Washington, was just bustling with traffic, excitement. The ladies were dressed in their finest clothes and men were dressed in business suits, and not everyone dressed that way, but it was certainly a thriving place and then along 24th, almost the same scene. It's just sad to see that, well it's happened to many cities; it's not just Ogden, that the core of the city got gutted and changed irreparably. It's too bad 26 that it couldn't have been like what was done with Trolley Square in Salt Lake where they at least maybe changed the buildings, but don't gut every, just don't tear everything completely. The W. T. Grant store was a big deal on 24th and Washington and there was the Kiesel building and the Eccles building and the First Security Bank building and it had this little sky line and it was just, I don't know, it just seemed like a really, really positive. Overall, 25th kind of gave you the vice and a little excitement and drama, which was also kind of fun, and it just kind of was a really nice place to grow up. It sort of represented America, to me. I wrote a little article when I was a boy about it and I took a world book and I followed the outline they used to write about Chicago or New York and I just took every element, and Ogden had it all, in miniscule amounts. It had a little Asian neighborhood, it had a black neighborhood, it had everything in America and it was a, in a microcosm, it was the country. It's sad to a, I'm sorry, LR: It's okay. JV: Makes me feel bad to see that all that is lost. I know there is some of it there still. The Egyptian Theater is still there, but, LR: You're right, most of it is gone. JV: We would get, to go down to Washington Boulevard was a big deal and we would put on our best clothes and we would, yea, it was just a big deal. Even when I started working at the highway department on 17th and Wall or near, just off Wall, at the Utah Highway, Utah Road Commission, we looked forward to driving along Washington Boulevard just for the fun of seeing people on the street and seeing 27 all the excitement that it used to represent. I don't know, it's just, thank you for letting me share all that, and if I can come up with some more goodies I'll certainly call you. Also you're always welcome to call me if you need any more that I can provide, and thanks again for what you are doing. LR: Well, thank you for being so willing to help us out, I appreciate that, and for your stories, they've been wonderful and I appreciate you're willingness to work with us and to do this. We've been on the phone now for almost an hour and 20 minutes so I appreciate your time and your willingness, it means a lot. JV: Well great, Okay Lorrie, keep in touch, and any time I can be of assistance, who knows, maybe your or I or both of us may write books about it, who knows. LR: That would be fun. JV: It's worthy of some good books, I can think of three right now that would be worthy books about that era. But anyway, have a great day. 28

Van Summerill, July 16, 2013 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Van Summerill. The interview was conducted on July 16, 2013, by Sarah Langsdon. Van discusses his memories of Ogden and 25th Street. ; 34p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Van Summerill Interviewed by Sarah Langsdon 16 July 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Van Summerill Interviewed by Sarah Langsdon 16 July 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Summerill, Van, an oral history by Sarah Langsdon, 16 July 2013 , WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Van Summerill July 16, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Van Summerill. The interview was conducted on July 16, 2013, by Sarah Langsdon. Van discusses his memories of Ogden and 25th Street. SL: This is Sarah Langsdon and I'm here interviewing Van Summerill about his memories of the theaters in Ogden at his home in Ogden, Utah. It is July 16, 2013. Van, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about when and where you were born? VS: I was born in Ogden, Utah. I've lived here all my life except when I was in basic training for the National Guard and that was at Fort Ord, California and I don't call that living particularly, in the old barracks and such. I was born in the old Dee hospital and lived just a block away from it all my youth on Van Buren just off of 24th Street. So, close to downtown, and close to the Hospital Drug Store that we'd go and get root beer floats and things as kids. SL: Did you have any siblings? VS: Yes, one brother, who's four years younger than I and a sister who's seven years younger. SL: What do you remember about going to the Egyptian Theater as a child? VS: Oh I have very vivid memories. The only thing I don't recall is exactly when I started going. I imagine my parents would have let me go to the kids' shows by myself maybe when I was seven or eight. That would have been about 1949 or 1950. That did two things, it kept us entertained—I'm speaking of my brother 1 when he got old enough to go with me. My sister, I don't remember her ever going to the show with us, because she was much younger and the kids shows at The Egyptian started at 9:30 on Saturday mornings, they were called "Kiddie Shows." Admission was 20 cents and I remember lining up in front of the Egyptian, some days in a lot of fresh, overnight snow. When you were a little kid, it seemed like it took forever to stand in line and work your way up to the box office and finally get in. Of course, we had to buy a soft drink or candy or something before the show started. Then, wow, did we ever have the entertainment. There was always a feature film and serial chapter with a weekly cliff-hanger ending. That's where I was introduced to, "The Little Rascals," the "Our Gang Comedies," "Laurel and Hardy," "The Three Stooges," "Abbott and Costello," to name a few. They had all kinds of short subjects and cartoons and cartoons and cartoons. I remember the big curtain would then come down momentarily and then magically rise again, and the screen had disappeared. I didn't know at the time where it went. Out would come a tall distinguished man, Ted Kirkmeyer, who was the manager of the Egyptian and probably had more influence on my life than, in some ways, than my parents—even my own father. They had contests on the stage and they drew lucky ticket numbers and gave away things such as Hi-C orange juice in cans. The final giveaway was a bicycle each week. I was a shy kid and scared to death that my ticket number would be called and I'd have to go up on stage. It didn't dawn on me at the time that I was the only one that knew what my ticket number was and I could just—if 2 they called it, just ignore it. But, I was always terrified I was going to be called on stage. I always remember Mr. Kirkmeyer would say to the 1,200 youngsters packed in the Egyptian after the drawings, "Now, boys and girls, I have a pin in my hand, it's just a straight pin, and if it's quiet enough in here, if you kids are quiet enough that I can hear this pin drop, we'll have five more cartoons." Well, the place turned into a morgue. I mean, you could hear everybody breathing except the ones holding their breath so they wouldn't make any noise, and he'd drop this pin and then the drama would build. Finally, he would say, "I heard the pin, there's five more cartoons." Well, that was like hitting the jackpot, so on would come the cartoons nearly drowned out by 1,200 appreciative yells and squeals. The Saturday morning Kiddie Matinees were where I watched my favorite cartoon character, Mighty Mouse. Mighty Mouse cartoons were shown at the Egyptian because they were released by 20th Century Fox and the Egyptian was a Fox theater. They also ran RKO Radio Pictures, which meant Walt Disney's cartoons were screened all the time too. That was before Buena Vista Releasing Corporation was formed; before RKO went out of business. The cartoon mainstays were: Pluto, Goofy, Donald, Mickey and Minnie, Mighty Mouse, and Heckle and Jeckle. I remember them well. I was also introduced to some of the great old Vaudevillians; Leon Errol, for one. He made a series of 18 minute short subjects for RKO. Also, a man by the name of Edgar Kennedy, famous for the, "Slow Burn." He also appeared in many Laurel and Hardy movies. 3 I remember one Saturday they showed, "Mighty Joe Young," which was made by the people who created, "King Kong." The stop motion animation was even better than it was in, "King Kong." They made the gorilla smaller, he wasn't as big, but he was still larger than life. I was fascinated by that show. It was basically the same story as, "King Kong," they captured a gorilla and brought him back to America to perform at a night club. He misbehaves, they're after him to kill him because of the danger that he presented to the people. I was just fascinated with the night club movie set. It had a long bar and this thick glass window in back of it. There were lions roaming around back and forth behind the big window. This film sparked this young boy's imagination more than any other. I remember there was a soft drink machine in the lobby. You'd put in, I think 20 cents, and the cup would drop down and then you'd push a flavor button. Well, I made, what I guess you would call a "suicide" because I'd push orange and then I'd push coke and then I'd push root beer and then 7-Up and then back and forth and back and forth. I thought that made the best drink. But my very favorite movie treats were ice cream bon-bons. They were the most expensive of everything the Egyptian sold. I think they were 25 cents for five ice cream bon-bons in an elongated cardboard box. And the thing I remember most about them, it didn't bother me, but the chocolate initially kind of tasted like the cardboard So anyway, I grew up going to the kids' shows and then I started noticing that there were all these announcements coming of Cinema Scope. That would have been in 1953. I remember one day after the kids' show—I always waited out in front of the theater for Dad to come pick me up. He had less than a mile to 4 drive to come and get me, but I knew that the regular movie starting shortly on this particular day was in Cinema Scope, and I wanted to see what it was. So, I just sat in the auditorium and no one came by to make me leave. So, on comes this wide Cinema Scope picture and I thought, "Oh, so that's what this is all about." Pretty soon I was tapped on the shoulder and it was my dad, who had gone around the block, I don't know how many times, and finally had to park the car and come in to see what had happened to me. I remember the remodeling in 1951, it was completed in December that year and it was a very nice job. By 1951, television competition was beginning to devastate attendance numbers at theaters. Fox's solution was to spend millions of dollars on their theaters, update them and redecorate them. They generally did an excellent job on the Egyptian, in spite of painting over some of the original colors, particularly on the lobby ceiling. But I remember going to the Egyptian the first day after the grand opening. I had never paid attention to the old original doors, but I did notice that there were brand new doors. They were all glass in simple aluminum frames, which in retrospect cheapened and clashed with the Egyptian art. To this day, I remember stepping through those doors and smelling the new paint. Looking around, I could tell some areas where they had repainted. Some I wasn't sure, but I knew it was different. The carpet felt as if it was two inches thick, very comfortable and very plush. The stage treatment was awesome. There were two new curtains installed and the front drape was what is called a Venetian curtain that rises in graceful scallops. Immediately behind the Venetian was a blue-gray curtain that opened sideways from the center, which 5 was called a traveler, or title curtain. So the audience never saw a blank screen at the movies. The studio logo would appear on that blue-gray curtain and then it would start to open sideways. At the end of the picture, the projectionist would time it so that just as the fade out on, "The End." That curtain would close again and then the Venetian curtain, gracefully descended. It was a fantastic addition to the Egyptian. SL: Did you go every weekend throughout the entire year or was it mostly summers? VS: No, I think it was generally in the winter and I honestly can't tell you how often, but I know we didn't go every weekend, but went enough that I saw my fill of cartoons and it seemed like I'd come home every Saturday with a headache. But what I used to like to do while I was waiting for my dad to come pick me up was stand out next to the box office. At that time, I was just tall enough to see in the box office side window. I liked to watch the cashier punch the keys on the change machine and watch the coins roll down a narrow trough and into a small dish-shaped container from which the customer could easily retrieve their change. In those days, adult tickets in the evening were 65 cents. Students got in for 50 cents if you had a student discount card and kids were 20 cents. That would have been the same for the Orpheum across the street. The Paramount was cheaper to go to and it was down on Kiesel, almost directly in back of the Egyptian. I think their price for kids was 15 cents anytime. I don't remember exactly what the adult fare was, but it was generally a little cheaper than the Egyptian and the Orpheum because it was considered a second rate theater, as was the Ogden Theater. 6 SL: Van, what do you remember about the former manager of the Egyptian? What was his name? VS: Ted Kirkmeyer was the manager when I was a kid and going to the movies there. He was later promoted to city manager in Salt Lake for Fox. He left Ogden in 1957 and then it was Bill Souttar. But, I kept in touch with Ted right up until his death and then Nellie, his wife, right up until she passed away. They both lived well into their nineties and Nellie told the story, Ted was sitting there listening— he was a very quiet, almost a shy person, when I'd go visit them and so Nellie was doing the talking—but she said that one Saturday morning it snowed the whole time that kids show was going on. It ended and the regular afternoon matinees started at 1:00. It was well after that mid-afternoon that this very upset woman called the theater and asked to speak to the manager and so Ted came on the phone and said, "This is Mr. Kirkmeyer," The woman said, "I'm so upset, my boy spent all his bus money on candy and then had to walk home in the snow storm and he just barely got home." Nellie said that the incident bothered Ted so much all week that he made it a point when he was up on the stage to explain to the audience that next Saturday, which could be as many as 1,200 kids in those days, just what happened to the young man. He said, "Now, boys and girls, I never want you to be in that position and I don't ever want this to happen again to any of you, so if you find yourself in a position where you don't have bus money to get home, my name is Mr. Kirkmeyer, my office is out in the lobby. You come and see me and I'll make sure you have money to ride the bus." 7 Nellie said, "Before Ted could get down off the stage and back out into the lobby, there was a line of kids that formed across the lobby and down the aisle in the theater waiting to collect their money for the bus." She said, "Ted didn't say anything, he indeed passed out whatever it took to ride the bus then—ten cents or whatever it was—to every single one of those kids that was in that line." Ted would never start a show or open the box office until he had a vase with a long-stemmed rose bud in the box office. He was just a class act. In fact, he was awarded the exhibitor of the year, but I think it was in 1938 or 1937, somewhere in there before he came to Ogden to run the Egyptian—I think he was still in Colorado. He was named motion picture exhibitor of the year by Darryl F. Zanuck himself, president of 20th Century Fox. The award was given to Ted in Paris, France. I have a picture of Ted and Zanuck and it's funny because Ted just towers over this little Darryl Zanuck. Ted Kirkmeyer paid attention to details. He had an eye for the ladies as far as having attractive young ladies work in his theaters. I have the pictures to prove it. Theater managers could win cash prizes and even vacations with photographic proof of what they did special to promote movies in their theaters. So, from time to time they would have a photographer come in and document promotion activities. One time, Ted had his staff of young ladies in swimming suits and they were photographed demonstrating ways of fighting fires if one happened to break out in the theater. They are holding fire extinguishers and containers of this and that retardant. It ended up a cheesecake instruction poster to my mind. 8 In 1948, the Miss Ogden Pageant was held in the Egyptian at Ted's urging. Miss Ogden went on to become Miss Utah and represented the state in the Miss America pageant. Ted was a great showman and someone that instilled in me a love of theater buildings. You want to hear about Bill Souttar too? SL: Sure. VS: Ted Kirkmeyer was promoted by Fox Intermountain Theaters to district manager over all Fox theaters in Salt Lake City. Then, out of the Midwest, came Bill Souttar, who was in so many ways, the exact opposite of Ted in management style. He could be bombastic. He seemed to be at his worst when we were the busiest at the theaters. It brought out, I don't know, nerves or something in him, but the way he reacted sometimes to the public, I thought, was amusing. I worked as Mr. Souttar's assistant manager for eight months at the age of 19 and I could always tell when he and Madge, his wife, had a disagreement at home before he came to work. It kind of slopped over, he kind of took it out on the staff. I saw him fire ushers on the spot for chewing gum, for having their hands in their pockets, or for the most grievous sin of all, sneaking popcorn out of the machine and eating it. So, he could be tough to work for, but after I quit as assistant manager at the Egyptian, it wasn't long before I went back as a part-time doorman one or two shifts a week just because I wanted to be in that building and part of that industry. When I went for National Guard basic training in California, Bill Souttar wrote me several times, keeping me informed what was going on at the Egyptian. 9 Eventually, I found myself in a situation where I was a quasi-assistant manager a lot of times. Mr. Souttar went through several assistant managers, so there were occasions in between I would be asked to fill in. I remember one New Year's Eve in particular. The lobby was filling up with people coming for the late show which was to begin about 10:00 p.m. It was timed to start so that somewhere in the movie, just minutes before midnight, the projectionist would insert a countdown to the New Year film clip. Precisely at midnight, the words to, "Auld Lang Syne," would come on the screen for the audience to sing. But anyway, the doorman noticed these two guys coming into the lobby and they were "happy." They were really happy, they had they're arms around each other singing to the top of their lungs and weaving side-to-side on their way to the doorman's stand. This particular doorman was kind of a wimpy guy anyway and didn't want to confront these drunks, so he hurried over to the office door, "Mr. Souttar, Mr. Souttar, come out here quick." So, Bill came out and stopped these guys and said, "Boys you're going to have to go back and get your money refunded because we can't let you in. You're a little bit under the weather, shall we say, and we'll get you a refund." Well, they said, "No, no, we're okay," and started arguing to the point where Bill had to get forceful with them and physically started nudging them back to the box office. About that time, I turned and was looking inside the theater at everybody standing around the concession stand who, in turn, were looking at what was going on with Souttar and these two guys out by the box office. The first thing I knew, I see everybody in unison go, [gasp], and I turned around just in 10 time to see Mr. Souttar's glasses go flying one way and he went flying the other. Well, those guys, I don't know what he said to them, but one of them knocked Bill for a loop. But other than a small cut on his nose, he was okay. It broke his glasses though. The hardest part about that deal for me was trying not to laugh when he came back in the theater. Of course, the staff loved it because, like I said, he was a tough nut to work for and he sometimes tested your ability to love your fellow man, so to speak. So, we're in the lobby kind of, "Hehehehe," and then all of a sudden, this booming voice out of the office, "Van, come in here." I thought, "Oh no, now I really have to control myself." Anyway, I went in the office and Bill says, "You're going to have to count tonight's money because my glasses are broken and I can't see." By the way, Mr. Souttar opted not to press charges against the two drunks. SL: How did you start working at the Egyptian Theater? VS: When I was 19, I must looked like I was about 15. I was in college, but I was downtown for a dentist appointment. After seeing the dentist I thought, "I'll go to a matinee movie." So I bought a ticket to the Egyptian, as I walked in Mr. Souttar saw me. He said, "What are you doing out of school?" I said, "Oh, I had a dentist appointment and decided to come to the movie afterward. I'm out of high school anyway; I'm in college." He'd seen me around and we chatted from time to time. He said, "I've got a position open if you're interested." I asked, "What's that?" Bill said, "Assistant manager." I felt that I would be in seventh heaven having that job and immediately accepted the offer. 11 VS: I was 1962. Candy girls were making 65 cents an hour; the box office girls likely were making about 15 cents more an hour than I was. I figured I was working about 50 hours a week, for 60 dollars. So, I wasn't making a heck of a lot of money but was spending a lot of time in that theater. When you're in the movie business, you work when everybody else plays. I recall an incident that happened at the Egyptian about this time that played out like a movie script. I was in the lobby one day and I just half-noticed a man come up to the box office—nothing unusual about that—then he walked away. Shortly, I noticed two guys at the box office and one of them looked as if he flashed a badge to the cashier. As they walked away, I approached the cashier and asked, "What's going on there?" The cashier said, "That's was the FBI, and they're tailing the person who just was at the box office. I said, "Oh, that one that just walked away/" She nodded. I asked if the suspect was coming back. The cashier told me he bought a ticket to the next show. Within a few minutes, here comes four or five other agents, in the front door and they were stationed all over the theater. They had questioned the cashier, so they knew they had about a half an hour before the next show started, so they got these guys all situated, and I thought, "Woah, this could be exciting." So then, in comes the guy, and goes in the theater and we're just all on pins and needles. This really livened up the night, but if that weren't enough, all of a sudden, we heard sirens coming down Washington Boulevard, and all these fire trucks stopped in front of the Egyptian. I walked out front to see what was going on. Schubach Jewelry Store occupied the north commercial space in the Egyptian building, adjacent to the lobby and the 12 box office. (On the south side was Standard Optical then). Anyway, Schubach Jewelry had this big diamond above their window that was covered with light bulbs that blinked and glittered. One of the guys that was staking out the theater in a car across the street saw that sign catch on fire, so he called the fire department. While I'm standing out front, I notice one particular man. He was just opening his wallet to buy tickets, and a couple of firemen rush by him hauling a hose into the Egyptian. The second fireman has one of those big axes, so this guy is looking at them, then he's looking at his wallet and he's trying to decide whether he's going to buy a ticket under the circumstances. I don't remember whether he bought tickets of not. Anyway, the movie went on and we were all waiting to see what happens next, and the suspect walks out, down the street, obviously being tailed, and that was the end of that. We never found out what was going on. There are always funny stories in theaters, funny things that happen. Mr. Souttar told me this story, and I don't know whether it happened at the Egyptian. He came to Ogden from the Midwest, out of Fox Midwest Theaters to manage the Egyptian. He said one day the custodian came in with a set of false teeth he found in the heater and Souttar told him, "Well, put them in the lost and found box," which he did, and then a couple of days went by and finally a man came in and asked, "Did you find a pair of false teeth in the theater?" Mr. Souttar nodded, "Yes, we did, and I'll have someone get them for you. May I ask how you happened to leave your false teeth here?" He said, "Well, I was watching the 13 movie and my teeth start hurting, so I took them out and put them on the chair next to me." Now, can imagine, something that's going in your mouth, resting on a theater seat next to you? SL: What other movie theaters did you end up working in? VS: The training theater for the Union, (I didn't really have to train very long because I had near-lifetime experience with 16mm film) was The Movie, a little theater built in what had been the Ben Lomond Hotel dining room. It was off of 25th Street. It was a nice room. The Stephens, I think they were brothers, or father and son, had built one of Ogden's first drive-ins, the Mt. Ogden, in 1948, located where the South Ogden Costco is now and K-Mart before that. I don't think there was just one reason why it was decided to move the drive-in. One was that Sears moved in across the street and the parking lot lights were interfering with the picture at the Mt. Ogden. Anyway, the North Star Drive-In, on the old highway to Brigham replaced the Mt. Ogden in about 1960. Then, Stephens ventured into building that little theater in the hotel, but anyway, that was the Union Projectionists training theater. After I was trained in the Union and working the Wilshire in South Ogden and the Northstar Drive-In, I still filled in position there for a while. We were running, "Jeremiah Johnson," I remember and I looked at the picture on the screen and the CinemaScope lens was a little crooked. What happens if you turn that lens just a little bit? It forms a parallelogram, where the two sides are parallel to each other, same thing for top and bottom. But the picture was running slightly uphill. I thought, "I'm going to fix that," so I started messing with that lens and the lens fell out of the projector. Luckily, it fell in the window sill. I quickly 14 checked and it was okay, but I was so nervous and shaking I had difficulty putting it back in its slot. Luckily, there were only a handful of customers in the place. I did most of my projecting work at the Wilshire. It was on Harrison Boulevard in South Ogden and was supposed to be the cornerstone of a mall to be built by John Hinckley, who also owned Hinckley Dodge. They built the theater first, but the mall was never built. I worked Saturday nights, which is unusual for a part-time projectionist to work the busiest night; normally the head projectionist works that night. I enjoyed that shift because it was busy and there were usually a lot of people there. I also worked a little bit at the Orpheum downtown. I'm glad I was able to do that because, of course, it's gone and has been for a long time. I happened to work opening day of Jaws, which of course was the big picture of the year. The place was packed for the first show and the rest of the say, and so I always remember that. The North Star; I didn't much like working the drive-in. I remember coming home from a shift one night and it was getting light. I was as if the sun would come up any minute. In the middle of summer, when your days are long, you have two extra-long movies. They always run the first movie, then the second and then run the first one again. That as one of those nights, so the birds were chirping and I was just getting home. Aaron Farr, our Union's business agent and one of the old timers, told this story: Aaron was a projectionist at the Northstar one night. He kept hearing these strange sounds and couldn't figure out what the heck they were. He decided they were coming from outside the booth. He discovered there was a carload of young guys who were drinking beers and 15 trying to throw the empty beer bottles through the projection room portal. Had they succeeded, the projector could have been damaged. Surprisingly, the Browning Fine Art Auditorium was Union house even though they ran just 16mm rather than the standard 35mm. We used to show travel logs and all kinds of things. I even met the movie star Charleston Heston who augmented his lecture with film clips. I also met the grandson of comedian, W.C. Fields, who showed scenes from his grandfather's films. That projector in the Fine Arts center was a German machine which threaded from the opposite side. It was somewhat confusing. I always panicked when I had to work there just because of the fact that it was such a different machine. SL: Did you ever work at the Ogden? VS: Oh yes. Besides the Egyptian, the Ogden was Peery's other theater. They leased them both to Fox and so it was also under the jurisdiction of Bill Souttar. When you were assistant manager at the Egyptian, you were kind of the manager of the Ogden Theater, which operated mostly on weekends, especially in the summer. Just weekends because the drive-ins killed the downtown theaters in the summer. Fox booked more money on a Sunday running Spanish films than the Egyptian did running first rate, first run movies. Even back then, there were that many transient far workers who labored summers in the area. Sometimes those people would talk, we knew they must be talking about us, but we didn't know for sure what they were saying. Hopefully it was nice. The staff was instructed to always be courteous. One time, I looked in on the screen, it was a Spanish language film of course, but it took place in India. 16 It just struck me so funny; here are all these Indians with turbans on their heads and they're speaking Spanish. The Ogden was a poor stepsister to the Egyptian. The screen had long since ceased to fly in the loft, so it was on wheels. Promoters tried everything in there to make a profit and they'd book either boxing matches or wrestling matches. To tell you the truth, I don't know which. They'd push that screen to the back of the stage and set the mats and ropes in place. Then afterwards, bring the screen back into position. But in moving it back and forth, all the black masking across the bottom became frayed and torn. It was a mess. The old gentleman— Chris—who was a projectionist had come out of retirement to run these Spanish movies. That's all he did. He'd lock himself in that projection booth for the one o'clock show and stay in there all day and run movies. I looked in the auditorium, it was intermission one day. Out of ten or so lights that shined on the stage curtains, four had light bulbs that were working. I remember the curtain motor was out of adjustment, so the curtains stopped about two feet short of closing. You could see the frayed black masking on the bottom, and to top things off, Christ, was playing 45 rpm Spanish records on a 78 rpm record player, resulting in the singer sounding like a Hispanic Minnie Mouse. I remember thinking, "So this is show business, huh?" But I loved that old theater. The Ogden had quite the history. It opened in December of 1909 as a legitimate theater. It wasn't a vaudeville house. It was for traveling plays that came through town. There was a trunk up in one of the dressing rooms there. It was just like you see in the movies—these theatrical trunks with the stickers from all over the 17 country and perhaps the world posted on it. I had half a notion to just go in and take it. I never did. They tore the theater down and I was lamenting to Mr. Souttar one day about that trunk. He says, "Well, why didn't you ask? You could have taken it." Those old theaters have an odor to them, not necessarily a bad one, and a patina to them, unlike new ones and restored ones. I learned to love that smell. The Paramount smelled that way, the Ogden had carpet in front of the concession stand that had been there since probably the forties that had so much soda pop and God knows what else spilled on it, it was glazed over. I mean, you could see the pile and the pattern, but you couldn't move it. It wouldn't move, it was just that solid—like a rock. SL: Where was The Ogden located? VS: The Ogden was located across 25th Street from the Ben Lomond. Well, not quite directly. East of the Ben Lomond where a motel sits now was an old hotel, the Ogden Hotel. It was five or six stories high and it looked like it had a lot of indigent people living there because whenever I glanced that way, there were always older men sitting in chairs in the lobby. When I was in high school, I went to the Ogden every week. They were running American International Pictures, a studio specializing in Schlocky, cheap horror movies and they were always double features. In my film collection, I have an American International Picture called, "Invasion of the Saucerman." It's these little green men, although you don't know they're green because the picture is black and white. When they got agitated, needle-like tubes would come out from 18 under their fingernails and they'd shoot the victim full of alcohol and they'd be drunk—sometimes to the point that they'd die. I remember they even stabbed a cow. Anyway, that was the cheap and silly second feature to go with, "I Was a Teenage Werewolf," which starred Michael Landon. I saw more crap, but at the time, enjoyed it at the Ogden Theater every Saturday afternoon. The Ogden was what they called a move over theater for the Egyptian. For instance, if a certain movie was held over at the Egyptian and there was commitment to bring in a new picture to the Egyptian on a certain date, the old picture—if still profitable—would be moved to the Ogden. The Orpheum did the same with the Paramount. A lot of times you'd open the Friday night paper, the day films often changed, and it'd say, "Held over, moved over." I remember they did that with, "Gypsy," with Natalie Wood. It was playing at the Orpheum for weeks. It moved down to the Paramount and had a successful run there. I remember the year, "The Apartment," won several Academy Awards, as did, "Elmer Gantry." Those pictures hadn't played in theaters for a while; they'd come out earlier that year. The two pictures were so honored, the studio rushed them back out as a double feature. It was the longest double feature I've ever been to in my life, both shows were well over two hours each. But, they looked into the Paramount and mobs of customers showed up. The staff was dumbfounded. They were not prepared to handle that many people. There hadn't been that size crowd in there for years. They had to hurry ushers up to the balcony to dust seats off that hadn't been used for a decade or so. That was an exciting night. I loved seeing all those people in the Paramount. 19 SL: Did you ever meet Harm Peery, when you were working? VS: No, I didn't. I remember that he died; I think I was in junior high maybe. I've got a copy of his obituary in my files, but I can't remember exactly when he died. SL: What would you say your favorite theater was that you worked? VS: Well, no question, for many reasons, the Egyptian, of course, has always been my favorite. As far as working, I so enjoyed the Wilshire. When I first started there it was a single theater, same size as the Egyptian, about 850 seats. Eventually, two two smaller 350 seat theaters were added off the lobby, so they were like spokes off the lobby. There were three separate projection booths all accessed in the lobby, so I got to do a lot of people watching and walking around constantly looking in on each booth. That was when the film platter system came into prominence where the films were all spliced together and laid flat on a great big platter. Sometimes those things didn't work the way they were supposed to. I recall one time, obviously you could only be in one of the booths at any time, in each booth a third of the time, technically, there's no other way about it. The Wilshire had run Barbara Streisand's version of, "A Star is Born," for months. For some reason, that picture was bigger in Utah than anywhere else. I was making my rounds and I walked in the booth where that film was running, and a loose splice, had gone down through the projector and was on its way back to go up on the platter when it split in half. It split the film in half, so when I walked in, instead of a film 35 millimeters wide, there was a little strip about the size of the 16 millimeter winding on the platter and the other half was piling up on the floor 20 about two feet deep. So, with the platter system, all I could do was stop it, discard the split segment, then splice the two halves together, missing about ten minutes of the movie. The Wilshire had just hired a new manager. I don't know why they hired this kid. He was likeable enough, but for whatever reason, he was a lousy manager. He didn't order a replacement reel for several days, if not a week or more. So, people, every show would come out and say, "There's part of this movie missing." The incident that finally got him fired was this: There was a protocol that management had to follow taking the days deposit in the zipper money bag to the bank. You always were accompanied by another staff person. Well, this manager never followed that. At that time there was a temporary bank set up in a mobile home at the edge of the Wilshire property. Somebody obviously had been staking the place out. The manager—alone—was walking over to the bank when a car starts up across the parking lot, and the wheels screech and this car is heading right for him. As the car zoomed up to him, the manager up and threw the bag of money into the open car window. That was the last seen of the money and the last day the young man was employed at the Wilshire. SL: Van, do you have any memories about 25th Street or downtown Ogden, other than the theaters? Any stores you remember going to? VS: Well, the story went like this, and I don't know whether it was true or not. I tend to believe it was true, that Ogden, in the late fifties, was, I don't know what you'd call it, whether it was a test city for fashion, for teenager's fashions, or what, but 21 we had some great clothing stores here. Individual, local stores. I loved the old Penney's building, which sat where that unsightly new Wells Fargo building is at Washington Blvd and 24th Street. That old Penney's building was originally a ZCMI most of its early life, then it was Wright's Department Store and finally Penney's. It was an old, old building and I remember the elevator was operated by a Penney's employee. When first in college, Irene White, a coed of mine, was one of the elevator girls there. I remember looking at the tiny little seat that she had to sit on that ever so slightly protruded from the wall. It was just kind of like a little shelf that must not have been very comfortable. I remember the pneumatic tubes, through which they'd send the cash for change and things, through those pipes all through that place. Then, of course, the code for the telephone. Each station had so many bell rings, "Bing, bing, bing," or whatever. So I remember that. The men's stores, Buehler-Bingham, occupied street-level space of what was then the Eccles Building. There was Block's, Levin's and Fred M. Nye's. I don't know why they tore the Nye's building down, kitty-corner across the street from the Egyptian. That was the nicest store. The downtown mall killed that and the local clothing stores. 25th Street; my dad had stories about 25th Street. Lear Summerill worked for the gas company for 43 years. He started in the Mountain Fuel Supply Company office and retired as District Manager. They would not let the gas men go down 25th Street alone. They'd have to go in pairs. All the stories about 22 underground tunnels everywhere; I have seen no proof whatsoever. Individual basements, were sometimes connected side-by-side with doorways. I have heard there is or was a tunnel that ran under Washington Boulevard between the old First Security Bank building and the Eccles Building, but know of no 25th Street tunnels. I remember one New Year's Eve, when we were kids, two neighbors, and I were playing on the phone and got the crazy idea to call a 25th Street bar. We dialed up the Porters and Waiters Club. My neighbor was on the phone and this woman answered. My neighbor asked, "Could ya'll check to see if my husband's in there?" She said, "Well, honey, what's your husband's name?" "Charles." "Just a minute…Is there a Charles in here?" Luckily, no one named Charles came to the phone. We thought that was the funniest thing that ever was. Now, having learned about the Porters and Waiters Club, and the important role it played in the world of Jazz and all the great musicians and singers who stayed and performed there, I only wish I could have witnessed some of it firsthand. During the 1940's, my parents would park on lower 25th Street to watch the characters who would go up and down that infamous street. My memories are mainly of Washington and "dragging that boulevard" and the drive in restaurants, we would make a turn-around to do it all over again. There was A&W and Mason's, to name a couple. There were other who's names escape me, but I remember most had car-hops. Where Warren's Drive-In is, at Wall Avenue and Riverdale Road, that was Rusty's. KLO was a top 20 station then and a pretty popular station. They set up, 23 right on that corner a broadcast booth. It had big windows all the way around and the big DJ on the weekends was named, "Big Pete." He used to broadcast from that booth out there at Warren's. I always thought he was kind of silly. KLO studios were up in the Ben Lomond Hotel on the seventh floor, I think it was. They'd been there since the forties and a friend of mine knew all these radio personalities there, so we were up there on a Saturday night and I remember going in a room that was the record library with hundreds of 78 rpm from the forties. I know that KLO in the forties had studios both in Salt Lake and Ogden. I was told that when KLO moved out of the hotel, no attempt was made to save that library. There were probably some valuable old records there. SL: How did you get involved in the restoration of the Egyptian Theater? VS: I wrote a "call to arms" letter published in the Standard-Examiner in March of 1985 that resulted in the formation of the Friends of the Egyptian, Inc., which would later become known as the Egyptian Theatre Foundation. This is my 40th year as a member of the Theatre Historical Society of America. Attending their national yearly conventions, I have visited between 800 and 900 theaters across the country and Canada. I had seen many times what would happen to the Egyptian if no attempt was made to save the Ogden's movie palace. It would be destroyed. In 1973, my first year I was a member of the Theatre Historical Society, I was asked to write an article about Peery's Egyptian for publication in their quarterly, "Marquee." And so I did. I had been researching the Egyptian since my high school days. 24 It is amazing how many theaters across the land end up parking lots, here in Ogden too. I knew we were about to get another parking lot. As a long time Theatre Historical Society member, over time, I discovered there usually are predictable signs to the probably fate of these theaters. An ugly fate was becoming a real possibility for the Egyptian. So, I was compelled to write the letter to the editor. The organizing meeting was held in special collections at Weber State in March of 1985. So, it took twelve years to save, raise the necessary funds and restore the Egyptian Theater. The Theatre Historical Society folks approached me about having the convention in Utah. Past conventions had been in Toronto, even London, not to mention, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, New York, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Seattle, and now they're coming to Utah. The only way we could line up enough theaters was to tour the northern Utah theaters and then bus through eastern Idaho and western Montana, and end up in Missoula. That's the most busing the society had ever done. I worried about that, but, you know, the scenery was so spectacular the members loved it. Our convention was originally scheduled for 1995, but was postponed twice in order for the Egyptian to be completed. The Utah convention finally took place in 1997. We made it so the Egyptian was the last theater that we visited in Utah before heading north. Our volunteer staff got a standing ovation when all was said and done. SL: What do you remember about some of the other theaters being torn down, since the Egyptian is the only one that's still standing? 25 VS: I remember three of them being torn down. I have some pictures of the Ogden Theater as a pile of rubble. Workers knocked a hole through the side of the Paramount. I took a couple of friends down there one really cold, gloomy February day. I took several minutes of movies in there. That the Orpheum collapsed was no surprise to me. Actually, it was the Orpheum apartments that collapsed which were in front of the Orpheum. The person who owned and was remodeling the Ben Lomond Hotel insisted he had to have an entrance and parking where the apartments and theater were located. It was controversial at the time, debris shoots jutting out from south-side hotel windows. That debris had nowhere to go but on the roof of the five-story high Orpheum Apartments. You pile enough demolition debris on the roof, of course the building is going to collapse. I got a phone call, somebody called me and said, "You've got to get downtown, the Orpheum apartments have collapsed. Upon arriving, the first thing I did was look up at those windows. All those chutes had disappeared inside. I had real mixed feelings about the Orpheum. Everything historic had long been lost and forgotten. There was no record of what that building originally looked like inside. On the other hand, if they saved the Orpheum, I thought, the bigger nightmare would be tearing down that hotel. I really would have liked to have seen the Paramount stay, but I've often asked myself if the Paramount and the Egyptian were both standing, which one would you pick to save? That would have been a tough decision. Ogden couldn't support two historic theaters. SL: How has Ogden changed since you were young? 26 VS: Well, there's no more drinking fountains on the downtown sidewalks as there used to be. It's changed, it has changed so much. When I was in high school, it was a vibrant downtown. It took me a long time to figure out what happened to this town. A major factor was the coming of the freeway. It is my understanding that Eisenhower's main reason for building the freeways was to facilitate moving troops and military equipment around during the Cold War. But what happened when you put the freeway in? Salt Lake City all of a sudden is a half hour closer to Ogden. It killed the railroads and this was a railroad town. All of the businesses that are connected to the railroad, the stock yard and everything else. SL: Well, thank you, Van. I appreciate you taking the time out. VS: Well, you're welcome. 27

Abstrak Seksisme merupakan suatu hal yang memegang peranan penting dalam film ini. Diskriminasi sangat erat kaitannya dengan kemunculan seksisme. Disini para tokoh yang didasari sifat, bahasa dan latar belakang masing-masing yang memerankan peranan penting dalam munculnya seksisme bahasa di alur cerita dalam studi ini. Dalam film yang di produseri oleh Saul Dibb ini, terdapat empat tokoh yang saling berkaitan dengan masalah internal pernikahan antara Duke dan Duchess dari Devonshire yang membuat keberadaan wanita diremehkan dan dipandang sebelah mata. Teori dari Sara Mills digunakan karena berkaitan dengan bahasa seksis baik secara langsung maupun tidak langsung seperti dalam pemilihan kata atau perumpamaan. Terdapat enam tipe bahasa seksis yaitu: kata generik, derivatif, istilah non-paralel yang menunjukkan semantik degenerasi, seksisme dalam pepatah, seksisme dalam kata-kata makian. Melalui hasil tersebut, studi ini mampu menunjukkan efek atau akibat dari keberadaan bahasa seksis dalam film yang berlatar belakang seksisme ini. Kata Kunci: gender, seksisme, bahasa seksis. Abstract Sexism plays an important role in this film. Discrimination is closely associated with the appearance of sexism. The figures here are based on the character personality, language and background of characters which plays an important role in the emergence of sexism in the language of the storyline in this study. The film which was produced by Saul Dibb, there are four interrelated characters with internal marital problem between the Duke and Duchess of Devonshire who makes women presence underrated and underestimated. Sara Mills theory is used because it is associated with sexist language either directly or indirectly as in the choice of words or metaphorical. There are six types of sexist language, namely: the generic, derivative, non-parallel terms that indicate semantic degeneration, sexism in proverb, sexism in swear words. Through these results, this study was able to demonstrate the effect or result of the presence of sexist language in the film which has a sexism background. Keywords: gender, sexism, sexist language. Introduction Socially, women almost differ in terms of social role in the society; they are considered as a person who does not need a high position and education as men had, women are only needed to maintain the housework and caring the children or having a domestic business in order can also keep their babies in the same time. Women always underestimated as the second or lower creature whereas man as the higher than women from any things. This fact will factually create discrimination and gap between men and women. Women is lack of reproductive, sexual harrasment, and men's violence againts women. In brief, the discourse of women discrimination definitely cannot be separated from the discourse of patriarchal culture. It shows in a lot of part in our country that women mistreatment is still and always exist. Attitudes and behaviour based on traditional assumptions about women, the stereotypes of women, sexual roles in society have been become phenomenon and belief in our life. It comes from every people minds to think and behave through that traditional assumptions. We know that as people no matter the sex wants to treat as well and equal in any aspect of life. Women inhabited a separate, private sphere, one suitable for the so called inherent qualities of femininity: emotion, passivity, submission, dependence, and selflessness, all derived, it was claimed insistently, form women's sexual and reproductive organization" (Kent, 1990: 30). Allowing the principle that has been made by men assumption and belief, women consciously made by men like dependence, passive, low and tractable. As Susan Kent observes: "Women were so exclusively identified by their sexual functions that nineteenth-century society came to regard them as 'the Sex'" (Kent, 1990:32). This research studies about some social phenomenon that are found in our society through the visual media such as movie. The aim of this research is to describe the sexist language that used by the characters in The Duchess movie. This research gives understanding of sexist language and the way how it is used in movie dialogue. The kinds of types of sexist language that found in The Duchess movie based on overt sexism and indirect sexism or contextually meaning and the diction based on Sara Mills theory. SEXIST LANGUAGE Researchers are mainly concerned about female and male differences in language use and the reasons behind the phenomenon. They stick to the view that language itself is not sexist, but the society is. The social sexism is transferred to language by human being, and at the same time, sexist and insulting words may reinforce biased view, and changes in the society may be reflected. So language is not only a guide, it is even a mirror that reflects the sexism in social reality, and at the same time, it makes people see the social reality more clearly. Sexist language is language that expresses bias in favor of one sex and thus treats the other sex in a discriminatory manner. In most cases, the bias is in favor of men and against women. All kinds of unequal phenomena in society including gender bias are bound to be reflected on its lexis. Gu Jiazu (2002) thinks English as a sexist language is marked with distinctive sexist factors, among which the lexis is the most important aspect. There also have been many critical feminist surveys of English lexis (Nilsen et al., 1977; Schulz, 1990) which have argued that sexism is inherent in many of the labels which English speakers use. Some feminists have pursued the idea that there exist lexical gaps in the language-aspects of women's lives which are commonplace, but have no words to describe them (Spender, 1985). So it is frequently argued that these usages are sexist. Mills suggests that there are two forms of sexism which are overt and indirect sexism. Overt sexism is clear and unambiguous, while indirect sexism can only be understood contextually in relation to the interpretation of surrounding utterances. Indirect sexism is extremely common and therefore need ways to challenge and analyze its usage in language. (Mills, 2008). OVERT SEXISM According the Sara Mills's theory, there are two types of sexism which are overt sexism and indirect sexism. Overt sexism is one of the parts of sexism which can be clearly be understood with some forms that can be generalized about linguistically and contextually. Overt or direct sexism is the type of usage which can be straightforwardly identified through the use of linguistics markers, or through the analysis of presupposition, which has historically been associated with the expression of discriminatory opinions about women, which signals to hearers that women are seen as an inferior group in relation to males. (Mills, 2008:11). There are some forms of overt sexism such as: Generic nouns, derivational, non-parallel term, sexism in proverb and sexism in swear words. In the other hand, there is also indirect sexism. It necessary to consider more details the proposition. It will be rather difficult to analyze because the reader can be understood because the reader must be really understand with the transparent source of data as like in the script. It shows indirectly in metaphor and irony that usually exaggerate in stereotyping one sex. In society, men are considered the norm of the human species. They are viewed as those representing all the human beings, male and female. Simply, it can be said that "male = "human" norm. This practice makes women invisible in language. In addition, it marginalizes women and reflects a male dominated society. In accordance to that, Sara Mills and some supporting linguists gives a guideline how to identify the linguistic structure differences used in English, we can analyze morphologically by these following ways: a. Generic nouns Another well-known example of generic masculine term is "man". Man and woman as two equal components of human race are actually not equal in English lexicon. Man, besides its reference to male human being can also refer to the whole race. The usage in a general sense of man makes woman invisible. For example; (1) All men must die. (2) Man is a social animal. It is easy to see that "man", and "men" can be used generically to refer to both male and female. In the first sentence the word Men refers to human being. Despite this, in the second sentence also state the word Man in which it is a human species or animal. Thus, man makes males linguistically visible and females linguistically invisible. From this, one can know that in English using "man" or "men" indicates "the human race", they treat man as the center of the society, an embodiment of criterion and totally ignore the existence of woman. b. Generic Pronouns (he, his, him) In English there are a group of nouns of common gender, which refer to either male or female such as student, person, teacher, etc. When such nouns are used with generic reference in single form, the traditional grammar advocates to use the masculine pronouns in the context for the purpose of coherence with generic nouns.( Zhang Zhenbang,1995). Generic pronouns are pronouns that are said to refer, with equal likelihood, to woman and men. But the English language ignores women by allowing masculine terms to be used specifically to refer to males and commonly to refer to human beings in general. According to the rule of traditional grammar when the indefinite pronoun one is used for generic reference, then in the context usually one, one's, or himself is used to be its relevance. But in order to avoid repetition, he, his, him, or himself is chosen, especially in American English (Zhang Zhenbang,1995) See the examples: (1) If one wants to see the ruins, he must find his own guide. (2) Everyone must do his work well. In the first and second sentences, one and Everyone refers to the concept of people, which is a concept of common gender, we do not know they are men or women but it uses masculine pronoun. He and his in the context formally manifests the imagery of men but semantically represents people of either gender. The operation of the grammatical rule conventionally elevates the status of the masculine pronouns and lowers the feminine ones. c. Derivational "In English, derivational morphemes are mainly prefixes and suffixes. These affixes often change the part of the stem. The affixes thereby help us to identify relationships within words". Derivation is a way of word formation. It forms a word with meaning and category distinct from that of its base through the addition of an affix. The original base is the core of the formed word and carries the main complements of its meaning. The affixes are always bound morphemes, which carries information about meaning or function. In English lexicon, one of the most obvious evidences of the sexism is the affixes which lead to a view of women as a derivation from a male term. The feminine one is always derivative of the masculine one by adding a feminine suffix such as -ess and –ette. Actor, for instance, with the meaning of "a person who plays the part of a character in a movie or play", when attached to a feminine suffix –ess, becomes actress with the meaning of "woman with profession similar to those of "actor" and as for –ette, when usher is adhered to –ette, it becomes usherette. Such pairs of the words are of long lists in English lexicon. Here just list some of sexist based on its derivational: Ambassador - ambassadress Prince - princess Poet - poetess Author – authoress Waiter – Waitress Manager – Manageress That some of lists of sexist derivational word have different meaning based on the classification usage for men or women. The examples show and prove that the suffixes -ette and –ess are for woman only. It is considered sexist because when men do not need any affixes to refer to them, women need it. Furthermore, the terms in the right side are the feminine terms which are only indicated to the women only. Those feminine accents in the words ambassadress, duchess, princess and poetess and so on are not referred to the men or even to all human being, but those are especially marked to the women. d. The Non-Parallel Term The non parallel term between men and women are also the real example how sexist the English is. In accordance to that, Lakoff pointed out that words that were once equivalent terms for males and females have often diverged in meaning over time. (Chaika, Elaine.1982:205). Non parallel term or semantic derogation between men and women are also the real example how sexist the English is. In accordance to that, Lakoff pointed out that words that were once equivalent terms for males and females have often diverged in meaning over time. Consider these following examples: Mrs, Ms – Mr Mister – Mistress Governor – Governess Lady –Lord Lady – gentleman From the description above, none of feminine terms in the list connotes the same degrees as the masculine terms and almost all of them acquired as secondary sexual connotation. Lexicographers have noted that, once a word or term becomes associated with women, it often acquires semantics characteristics that are congruent with social stereotypes and evaluations of women as a group, a process that has variously been termed 'semantic derogation' (Shulz, 1975), 'semantic degeneration' (Miller and Swift, 1976) and 'semantic polarization' (Eakins and Eakins, 1978). e. SEXISM IN PROVERBS Proverbs are a short pithy saying in common and recognized use; a concise sentence, often metaphorical or alliterative in form which is held to express some truth as-curtained by experience or observation. The fact that there are many English proverbs which contain the words discriminating, distinguishing women, making women are worry about it. Since proverbs are standard, it is hard to change and create new proverbs substituting the old ones. Consider these following examples of English proverbs: 1."A man is as old as he feels, and a woman as old as she looks" this example implicitly creates an image that this sexist saying suggest that men age better than women. 2. "A man's home is his castle". This example also discriminate the women. It implicitly create an image that the peaceful and lovely house is only man has. 3."A good man is hard to find" the proverbs means that the difficulties for woman to fin a good man that is suitable for them. Or in finding male patner. f. SEXISM IN SWEAR WORDS The swear words is an expression in sometimes conscious or unconsciously said by speaker who is in a bad condition. In some area swear words is a kind of taboo to say, but in the others are very common and probably become a habit. Those swear words are used to insult, to curse, to offend, or to mock at something or someone when the speaker strong emotion which the impact can trivialize women position. Swearing is the way someone uses obscene words orally to insult, to curse or even to offend something (someone or action). Also, for emphasizing when the persons have strong emotion (Hughes, 1991). Usually, when someone has been insulted, someone will feel offended and easy to be angry. According to Crystal (1997) as cited in (Adeoye: 2005), sexist swear words is regarded as an emotive or expressive function of language. Hughes (1991: 224-225) claims that people tend to swear when he/ she angry or disappointed. They are also likely to swear when they would like to express antagonism, frustration, surprise, anger, and shock. Usually some words that belong to this category are fuck, cunt, shit. Swear words are very common in people's ears, because it sometimes said in the public society or even in the movie. There are several reasons why does swearing occur: 1. To express feeling in words rather than in actions, especially if you do not have bigger vocabulary (Crystal, 1995: 156). 2. To express their anger and frustration. 3. To seem brave. 4. To make people afraid when they have been violence by someone in the form of sex or other violence. 5. To imitate what other people do. There are very little swear words have been written for language learners, yet nearly all- native speakers use it in daily communication. The term such as: "fuck", "damn","bastard", "son of a bitch, "motherfucker", "asshole", and "bitch". That can be used as the examples of sexist swear words which provoke the violent confrontation. In other words, according to Eisenson and Boase (in Liedlich, 1973: 107), there is some words that is not supposed to be say in the public society, because it brings the negative meaning for the speaker also the listeners. It also makes a bad habit that the speaker feels very common. If there is someone uses obscene words to swear other people will judge them as people who are impolite, do not have high and well education or having less vocabulary. Those examples above are definitely can refer to both sexes man and women. Unfortunately, in practice those words are mostly indicated to the women behaviors and attitudes. It is the fact that English has linguistic and semantic discrimination through the practice of language usage; it is briefly can be seen in the word motherfucker and bitch. INDIRECT SEXISM According to Sara Mills, she said that indirect sexism is ironising sexism. Since it both challenging overt sexism and keeps it in play. Benwell (2006) terms this type of indirect sexism 'new sexism'. She also adds that it's very reminiscent of, it is not identical to past forms of sexism which clearly shown. It differentiates of they way overt sexism and indirect sexism is used. This type of new sexism is bring the outdated notions of sexism become new term one. That is why Williamson also called this new type of sexism as 'retro-sexism'. The fact that the humor and irony are used when being sexist does not change the nature of sexism itself, but it just only interpreting simply and different way of respond the new sexism. This term of sexism used to categorize a set of stereotypical beliefs about women which cannot be directly related to a certain linguistic usage or features. (Mills, 2008:10). Overt sexism is now largely seen as anachronistic and so it has been driven underground; indirect sexism is one which in some ways attempts to deny responsibility for an utterance, mediating the utterance through irony or disguising the force of the sexism of the utterance through humor, innuendo, embedding sexism at the level of presupposition, or prefacing sexist statements with disclaimers or hesitation (Mills, 1998:135). Indirect sexism can be found in several aspects such as humor and irony, scripts and metaphor. For example in jokes, it is a complex way constituting women as 'minority group' without taking responsibility for that exclusion. Sexist jokes allow generally unacceptable views of women to be expressed, because the person usually tells the jokes generally can claim that they themselves did not make up the joke. (Mills, 2008:71). Metaphor The narrative pathway or script is brought to play in new reports about women and men in a public sphere. This indirect sexism refers to women implicitly. It uses things to refers to the object either men or women. Irony Irony is a common strategy for humorous remarks about women. The term of ironic sexism is often satire the object in polite way. Irony involves a difference or contrast between appearance and reality - that is a discrepancy between what appears to be true and what really is true. RESEARCH METHOD According to Bogdan and Taylor in Moleong (2007:4), descriptive qualitative research is a research procedure that represents data either written or spoken from the people and behaviors which can be observed. In addition, Krik and Miller in Moloeng (2007:4) defines the descriptive qualitative ad a certain tradition in social sciences fundamentally relies on human observation in its own religion and deals with these people in language and terminologies. Qualitative research is mostly associated with words, language and experiences rather than measurements, statistics and numeral figures. Furthermore, in analyzing the types of sexism which are used by the characters of The Duchess Movie, it will be conducted by using the descriptive qualitative research. Qualitative approach is taken because the decided research efforts in discussing, analyzing and finding the social phenomena which is running naturally; it is not a controlled or based on laboratory research. The collected data are the subjects of experiences and perspectives; the researcher attempts to arrive at a rich description of the people, objects, events or conversations and so on. The data are from the words, phrases, clauses, or sentences that found in the dialogues of some characters. The researcher uses this method because she wants to get a brief description and a rich understanding about the expressions of sexist language and the classification which categorized as sexist gender biased based on linguistics terms in The Duchess movie. The source of the data which is used by the researcher is taken from the conversation or dialogues which is in the script and the movie of The Duchess. The characters who will be analyzed are Georgiana as a Duchess, The Duke Devonshire, Lady Elizabeth (Bess), and Charles Grey. In addition, to avoid the research becomes wide and broad, the researcher used a theory to identify and to classify, identify and analyze the types of sexist language. There are some theory which is gathered some sexist theory to support and complete the main theory. This study used the theory of Sara Mills in "Language and Sexism" and Philip M. Smith "Language, The Sexes and Society". It also helpes and completes by some supporting theory from other linguists in describing the types of sexist language in journals. The reason of the researcher gathers and combines the theory because to make the analysis become details and complete. It also adds some information of sexist language types. Most of the data will be found in the types of overt and indirect sexism, because the researcher concern in the words, phrases, utterances or sentences in many setting in this movie. The researcher chooses those characters because the other characters do not influence much about the gender discrimination which appears in the story. The theme of this movie is about internal gender discrimination in The Duke and The Duchess marriage, so it is not possible for other characters to interfere. In the technique of the data analysis, the researcher begins to analyze the data toward the procedures. In conducting the research procedure, the researcher follows three steps. The first, the researcher classifies the data which are words, utterances or sentences in based on its types of sexism orderly. The second, the researcher describes those data based on the two classifications of sexism which are overt and indirect sexism. The data is in the form of words, proverbs and utterances. The third, the researcher describes the existence of the sexist language which exists in The Duchess movie. DISCUSSION The analysis of sexist language or expression in discriminating sexes inappropriately above is used to drawing attention to the way language used to represent women in that movie. According to the data analysis and finding of the types of sexist language linguistically above, the researcher found six types of sexist language in The Duchess movie. They are consist of sexism in word such as the use of generic noun, derivational, non-parallel term which shows semantics degeneration, sexism in proverbs, sexism in swear words, and indirect sexism such as metaphor and irony. Some characters such as The Duke (William Cavendish), Duchess (Georgiana Spencer), The Duke's mistress (Lady Elizabeth Foster) and Georgiana's secret affair (Charles Grey) are used some term in sexist language by Sara Mills in the movie. The generic noun is term which is used to refer both men and women, but in effect it often refers to men only. Generic noun perform very useful function of allowing us to refer to an entire class of entities with a single word, and most if not all languages have one or more forms that can be used to designate members of the human species in general. This term applied when the speaker Georgiana unconsciously says in her speech when The Duke and her held in Bath Assembly room at night. She said that, "only two specimens of this rare bird are known to man." The word man here is used to gather both men and women knowledge about the two rare bird. She uses that word because of the reason for the recent attention surrounding this term is the growth of awareness about the portrait of the social order implied in which the male are half of the species whose members dominate. The word "man" used by Georgiana is because to respect the dominating of male in the society. People often refer to themselves and using nouns that describe an occupation or performance of an activity, such as "Duchess" in the datum (2), "Let them talk! Grey makes me a fallen woman, well and good, now William may divorce me and Bess becomes Duchess of Devonshire!". It seems clear that the great majority of such terms more readily evoke the image of man than of a woman. Some feminists have argued that the addition of diminutive suffix to agent nouns results in the term that have less semantic potency than unaltered counterpart, and that this both causes and reflects a devaluation of those who occupy this agent roles (Smith, 1953:46). Derivational suffix which found in this movie takes when Georgiana or the speaker says emotionally that Bess can become a Duchess of Devonshire in The Duke allows and gives his arrangement to have a relationship with Charles Grey. Based on the definition of the word "Duchess", it means as a noblewoman or a woman holding a rank equivalent to duke in her own right. Duchess (female) can either be a monarch ruling over a duchy or a member of the nobility, historically of highest rank below the monarch. The word "duchess" is added by feminine suffix –ess to identify that the agent noun uses female reference. Based on the representation of Duke and "Duchess", they are different. Duke tends to manage the social economy, politic, and something which is valuable. In inversely different with the job description of "duchess" who is only manage about the simple thing. In addition, the position of "duchess" in this movie shows that also, she has no special except in little space in Whig, and for the rest she only cares about what she should care as a mother. Based on the job description of "duchess", it shows that the position of The Duke always becomes superior. So, when there are agents nouns placed in one sentences, it seems that the old maxim "Duke and Duchess" is more honored in the breach than the observance. In fact, little is known about the psychological significance of the word order pairs like this, and the fact that women often come second or may not signify to the listener that they have less status or importance than the male. In addition, the term of non-parallel implied because of some reason deals with women social status at that time. "Mr", "Mistress", "Lady/ladies - Gentlemen", "Governor", and "Lover" are the sexist language which found in the movie. From those words, we can see that there is no similar meaning from its pairs. Meanwhile, those words have implicit meaning which degenerates women become lower status from the pairs. It can be conclude that most women as the speaker of the words above are aware about the condition of women whom trivialized by men physically and mentally. From the word "mistress", "lady" and "lover", all of them have similar meaning as women who are become a man maid of desire or tend to be having lower status. While the word "Mr", "governor" and "gentlemen" are also treated as sexist because it has higher social status than its pairs. None of feminine terms in the list of data above connotes the same degree of strength or power as its masculine counterpart, and almost all of them have acquired as secondary sexual connotation. The character of The Duke in the datum (8), "That's one way of putting it. Your mother called it 'common decency before personal gratification', or some such thing… the exact words escape me…" shows about the sexism in proverb about the matter of social interest. He tries to give an example from Georgiana's mother quotation which grabs by him. According to the definition of proverb, it means short pithy saying in frequent and widespread use that expresses a basic truth or practical precept. In general use, that proverb states about a general truth or piece of advice to the hearer, Georgiana. That proverb has an implicit meaning that the position of the Duke is always strong in the matter of conducting his wife. In the other words, Georgiana has to follow what her husband as to do. In this circumstance, the position of Georgiana is awry. She has to choose between her children or her desire and affection of Charles Grey which she doesn't get from her husband. As the main Character, The Duke always becomes the centre of the society. He should speak politely. In the other hand, in some cases he cannot put himself in that situation. Based on The Duke character personality, he kinds of man who is introvert, cannot control his emotion and has a switch temper that can be changed in certain time. So, he often expresses his anger or dissatisfaction through something near him. He also often use sexist swear word to release it such as "damn", "hell", and "bastard". Those words are deal with death term which uses to mock or curse people. That term also to express The Duke feeling rather than in action, especially he does not have bigger vocabulary. In the datum (15), "Give me a son and then do what the hell you want, as long as you do it discreetly. Until then you stay here and do as I say." The Duke says "hell" to express his frustration of his failure to obtain a male heir from Georgiana. Furthermore, this sexist swears word helps by his action in intimidates his wife by hurting her in action. The other main characters, Georgiana often use parable or imagery to reflect her own circumstances. The imagery and parable itself categorized as indirect sexism term. The data which treated as indirect in the movie are "male company, "imprisoned", "throw", "you both of another world that does not exist and never will" and "love is an act! It's more than words and undying oaths!" That indirect sexism consists of metaphor and irony. As the definition of indirect sexism, it cannot be understood by linguistics markers but using contextual meaning. Metaphor is a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable. It can also regards as representative or symbolic of something else, esp. something abstract. In this case, the character of Georgiana often uses this term to symbolize herself which is bridled in her own internal marriage problem. The other character, Bess also express her sadness and disappointment of being left by her husband because of his "mistress" in datum (5). The fact that metaphor and irony are used when being sexist does not change the nature of sexism itself, but it rather simply changes the way it can be responded to. From those terms of sexist languages which found in The Duchess movie, it can be concluded that the sexist language related with those character because of the impact of the sexist theme occurs in that internal marriage problem. The impact of those sexist languages to the theme of the movie is when those utterances make the women participation underestimated more. The significance effects shows when inequality between men and women, social inequalities which women have and the position of men who do not want to be defeated by circumstances of women influence to the theme of the movie. The existence of sexist language is also because the aspects of character personality, language, background and its context. Character personality takes part in the analysis because the speakers unconsciously speak it refers to their character. For example like The Duke, he often uses kind of sexist swear word in order to replace his anger in to the word or someone close. It is because The Duke is introvert, close and has a switch temper which can be changed in certain time. It similar with Charles Grey, as a man, he also temperamental when he knows something inappropriate as like Georgiana fake promise and prefer to go back for her children rather than him. In the other hand, if Georgiana and Bess as representative from women sides they tend to be polite and use their feeling rather than logic in their problem. The choice of word which used by those characters mostly reflects their circumstances as women at that time. From those characters personality, we can see that words which that use reflect each people characters. That choice of words absolutely influences to their language when they speak such as in the term of sexist swear word which mostly expressed by The Duke. Furthermore, character personality and language cannot be separated with the context and background of each people and movie at that time. The speakers will consider the language which they will use based on the context of the talks. The background here used to support the situation of the character based on place and time in their situation or in this case is in Victorian era. The background may be a stereotype or culture of certain gender. The most data commonly found in non-parallel term, indirect sexism and sexism in swear words. It is because the women condition cannot be equated with men. People at that time still holding patriarchal culture which means the position of men is superior and holding every aspect. They often underestimate women self-esteem to become men mistress whom can be throwing away anytime. Women seem like do not have strength to be independent without men position in front of them. Men are allowed to have more than one mistress even they are a centre of society. On the other hand, when women try to express their feeling to other men it considers as improper behavior and taboo. All of utterances which have been said by the characters are reflecting their character personality. Based on the explanation of the existing of sexist language above, there are some reasons that make the women circumstances become weak in physically and mentally. This evolutionary reasoning provided justification for the emotional and mental differences between men and women. At last, sexism can be existing because of stereotype of women and it reflects to the culture. The character personality helps to make it clear where the mental and emotional aspects involve in indicating their existence through language. Those stereotypes create morals and social values that applied until this time. The only way of changing that social structure is to make the position of men and women equally same no matter what. CONCLUSION This chapter presents the conclusion and suggestion based on the analysis and finding in chapter four. The finding shows the sexism by the characters in the movie involves overt and indirect sexism. Overt sexism is a type of usage which can be identified directly through the linguistic markers. While indirect sexism can only be understood contextually in relation to the interpretation of surrounding utterances. However, this term of sexism used to categorize a set of stereotypical beliefs about women which cannot directly analyzed by linguistic features. The linguistics features of sexism are divided into several types, as follows: (1) Sexism in words. The using of man in "Well, only two specimens of this rare bird are known to man" considers as generic nouns which should be referred to both of sex. (2) Sexism in words of using English pairs or word order of words showing non parallel term or semantic degeneration between men and women such as the word Mr "In the play this evening, there was a scene in which Lady Teazle and Mr. Surface discuss their affair", Ladies, gentlemen, and mistress "My husband, Mr. Foster, is enjoying his mistress in Bournemouth, and I wanted some diversion.". This non parallel term shows that there are semantic derogations between men and women position. (3) Sexism in words using suffix –ess in "Let them talk! Grey makes me a fallen woman, well and good, now William may divorce me and Bess becomes Duchess of Devonshire!" as job occupations of profession such as Duchess. This type of sexism in words shown that the discrimination through gender divisions still exists in the matter of word order. (4) Sexism in Proverb. There is only one analysis which found as sexism in proverb as like "common decency before personal gratification". It related to the high power of men than women. This kind of English proverb seems like the metaphorical of men who held to express the position of men that is always unbalance and prioritized than women. (5) Indirect sexism. This new term is not related to the certain set of linguistic usage and features but contextually of a diction which replace and describe their speaker situation. Indirect sexism which found in this research is about metaphor and irony such as "How about 'imprisoned' in my own house'?" and "I'm ill at ease with male company for the moment.". (6) The last is sexism in swear words. There are various kinds of swear words which used by the character of the movie such as "hell" as like this utterance: "Give me a son and then do what the hell you want, as long as you do it discreetly.", "bastard" in this utterance:"Three boys??? Do you think I can make those bastards my heirs? Well, do you?" and the insulting term for women such as "whore", "Be quite you fool! (to Georgiana). Are you his whore?!". The usage of sexist swear words express their disagreement, anger or objectionable depends on the context and problem of the character. In addition, there is no general neutral term to replace the words. The last is In addition, some aspects of sexist language existing in the movie are character personality, language, background and its context. All of those aspects are interrelated and interconnected each other. Based on the finding, the character personality influences more because it reflects to their language they use. Their language will refer to their position as a centre role model that perceived by public. While the background and context reflects women stereotypical knowledge in Victorian era which bring the character of women discriminated by men. SUGGESTION Using a language without regard to the gender classification is expected to minimize the woman discrimination in the language. So, the researcher wants to contribute some suggestion for the next researcher. First, the next researcher can use and complete the analysis by new sexism which is indirect sexism. It used to analyze sexism without directly using linguistics markers but, it uses diction like in metaphorical, humors, irony or satire which trivializes women. Second, the researcher hopes that the next researcher analyzes the source of data by putting the historical background so that they can find out the characteristic of their style of writing. The historical background can use to prove why those sexist languages occurred. Lastly, the researcher hopes that the terms of English indirect sexism will be applied to avoid the use of sexism in written and spoken even it is not linguistically shown in the next research. DAFTAR PUSTAKA Aini, Nur, 2010. The Sexist Swear Words Used by the Characters in Shottas Movie, English Letters and Language Department, Faculty of Humanities and Culture, Maulana Malik Ibrahim State Islamic University of Malang. Brannon, Linda. (2002). Gender: Psychological Perspectives. Chapter 7: Gender Stereotypes: Masculinity and Femininity (pp. 152-76). London: Allyn and Bacon. Cameron, Deborah. (1985). Feminism and Linguistic Theory. London: Macmilan Press Chaika, Elaine. 1982. Language the Social Mirror. Massachusetts: Newbury House Publishers, Inc. He, Guimei. 2010. Journal of Language Teaching and Research of An Analysis of Sexism in English. Academy Publisher manufactured in Finland: Qingdao University of Science and Technology, Qingdao 266061, China. 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(1998). Contemporary arguments against nonsexist language: Blaubergs (1980) revisited. Sex Roles, 39(5&6), 445-461. Smith, Philip M. 1953. Language, Sexes and Society. Basil Blackwell Inc, New York. Wardaugh, Ronald. 1986. An Introduction to Sociolinguistics. Oxford: Page Bros. INTERNET SOURCE http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Sexism.aspx (accessed in January 10th 2013) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism). (accessed in January 10th 2013) http://digilander.libero.it/mgtund/sexism_in_language%202.htm (accessed in March 1st 2013) http://www.victorianweb.org/gender/sextheory.html (accessed in March 28th 2013) http://webpage.pace.edu/nreagin/tempmotherhood/fall2003/3/HisPage.html (accessed in March 28th 2013)

M. Diane Krantz, April 4, 2014 ; The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ; The following is an interview with Dr. Diane Krantz conducted on April 4, 2014 by Ruby Licona. Dr. Krantz discusses her early life and her career at Weber State University from 1995 to 2011. ; 39p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 video disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program M. Diane Krantz Interviewed by Ruby Licona 4 April 2014 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah M. Diane Krantz Interviewed by Ruby Licona 4 April 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Krantz, Diane., an oral history by Ruby Licona, 4 April 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii M. Diane Krantz April 4, 2014 Abstract: The following is an interview with Dr. Diane Krantz conducted on April 4, 2014 by Ruby Licona. Dr. Krantz discusses her early life and her career at Weber State University from 1995 to 2011. RL: Today is April 4, 2014. I'm Ruby Licona from the Stewart Library at Weber State University. Also present is Stacie Gallagher, our video technician. We are speaking with Dr. Diane Krantz, who came to Weber State in 1995, retired just a couple of years ago and is never still for a moment. Every time I encounter her she's got plans for one activity or another, so she's not a shy retiring kind of person, she is living her life to the fullest. Good morning, Diane, and thank you for coming in to talk with us. DK: Good morning, Ruby, thank you for the privilege of donating my thoughts to the library. RL: Well, we are anxious to learn about you. To that effort, why don't you start out telling us a little bit about your origins and some of the things with which you were involved prior to coming to Weber State? You did not come here straight out of—well, you came straight out of your Ph.D., but that was a few years following your bachelor's degree. So, why don't you talk to us a little bit about that? DK: Okay. Well, I was born in a small coal town in Pennsylvania called Carbondale. I was a very devout Catholic and always wanted to be a religious woman, so when I graduated from high school, I entered a convent that was in the town where I 1 was living. I got a bachelor's degree in mathematics from St. Louis University, ultimately, and was credentialed to teach math. I taught elementary school math for three years and then went on to high school math and got my master's in teaching mathematics from Fairfield University. I taught high school mathematics for 17 years. RL: That was at Fairfield University in Connecticut? DK: Yes. RL: So, how did you get from St. Louis to Connecticut? DK: Well, actually, I started in Pennsylvania. We moved to Connecticut and then after I had taken my vows, I was transferred from the convent in Connecticut to St. Louis. Actually, my first foray there in higher education was a sister's college called Mirallac College. It was for religious women. I was there for a year, but there program was so convoluted; it would have taken me five more years after my Associate of Arts degree to get my bachelor's. So, the Provincial and I decided I would go to St. Louis University. Then I taught for three years in the elementary school in St. Louis and was transferred back to the high school in Connecticut to teach there. Math teachers, even in the convent, are at a premium especially because a lot of sisters did not go directly on for their degrees. They got them part-time. Getting a math degree that way could take 12 or 13 years. I was going full-time, so I managed to get mine in a reasonable amount of time. I got a National Science Foundation grant, so most of my master's degree was free for me and the convent. So, that was nice. I taught many years, as I said, in the high school and religious life somewhat changed and I began to—a lot of 2 women left religious life during those following years as the church became—as their thinking became more modern. I always thought I was in it for the long haul, but I began to realize at one point that I had become somewhat like my mother in the sense of not knowing my own mind after a while. I was following superiors and I wasn't thinking for myself anymore. I didn't know, actually, what I wanted. At that point, I decided that I would at least try life outside the convent. So, when I was in my early 40's, I had permission to live outside the convent for two years and at that point I had been transferred to California and taught part-time in an elementary school while I looked into attending the University of California at Davis. I had requested to get a Ph.D., but that wasn't common at that time among the sisters, so I was refused for that. I went on—I was enrolled in the master's program. I spent two years and I think most people that knew me from the convent assumed that I was enough of a flake that I would never manage in the outside world. But, it turned out that I had my father's sense of economics, so I did very well, actually. By that time, I had decided that it was time for me to try a new direction in life. So, I was enrolled in the English program at U.C. Davis and I made a formal request for dispensation from my vows and received it. I then went on to get a Ph.D. at the University of California at Davis. RL: So, you got relieved of your vows in, what, the late 80's? DK: Yeah, it would have been about 1985 or 1986. A Ph.D. would take seven years at U.C. Davis if you didn't have—well, I didn't even have a bachelor's degree in English, so that was a little bit more of a challenge. At any rate, I got a Regents Fellowship my first year there and then forgot to apply for it the second year. I 3 ended up with fellowships in teaching, but the University of California system was very generous at that time and it had a lot of money, so they actually paid me what I considered a full salary, although, my colleagues in the English Ph.D. program were not doing quite as well because they were more used to being on their own and spending money as they wished. RL: They hadn't been in the religious life. DK: They had not been living a vow of poverty, right. After a year, while I was still debating, I said, "What would be the one thing I would be sorry for if I went back in the convent? What would I be sorry not to have done?" So, I took a trip to Europe—a bus trip to Europe. It was one of those bus trips where, "It's Tuesday, this must be Belgium." And it was literally like that. You got up in the morning and it was Belgium and you were going to go back on the bus and over to Holland all that day and then you'd spend a couple of days in Holland and then go on to the Rhine. That was very exciting. I had thought if I had a chance to go back to Europe, it would be nice to have an overview of it, so that's why I went on that particular trip. I was still a little bit behind for my doctorate. My father died in the meantime. My mother died three weeks before I left the convent, so that was a little traumatic because, a) I wasn't expecting it and, b) that her timing was impeccable to make me feel guilty. I failed the exams I took right after my father's death, so they gave me another chance. So, I did get through my exams and my defense of my dissertation. Then I realized I couldn't finish the dissertation on time and they would cut off my teaching pay, but there was an opportunity to go 4 to Germany on an exchange and that would be fully funded—by the Germans, actually. Because I was, shall we say, older, and also had several master's degrees they paid me through the nose in Germany. So, I was very well off in Germany. RL: Did you go to Germany to teach? DK: I went to Germany on an exchange of doctoral students to teach at the University of Mainz. So I lived in Mainz and traveled again through parts of Europe. I enjoyed my time there and taught six classes the first semester and seven the next, but German classes are much different than American classes as I learned. Students basically don't hand in anything until the end or they take three Claysure tests if they're not on that type of a schedule. It was probably less work with the six classes there than with my high school teaching, so it worked out very well for touring. After I came back from Germany, about a month before I had to hand in my dissertation, I had some work on graphics to do because I hadn't had a Mac computer there. I got my three signatures and the Ph.D. and then had a post doc at U.C. Davis for a year and applied for jobs. I got four responses. I was much more careful the second time I applied than the first time I applied. The first time, in Germany, I sent out a hundred applications and I wasn't specific at all. The second time when I was back in the United States, I said, "I'm going to research these universities." I think I applied to four and I got responses from two. One was Weber State and the other was the University of Puerto Rico at Mayaguez. The only thing that really attracted me there was that they had one of the large 5 radio telescopes at Arecibo, I think it is. At any rate, it wasn't too far from Arecibo. But, I don't speak Spanish. I was worried that the cultural differences, not for me, but the differences between the rich and the poor there would be a source of constant pain to me. The other thing, of course, was that by this time with both parents dead, my siblings were living across the country. One was in Connecticut, one in Iowa and one in Portland, Oregon. So, I would never get any visits if I stayed in Puerto Rico because it would have been quite a long trip for them. I decided that I would be happier all around accepting the job at Weber. When I came to Weber, I was really impressed with the English people who met me. Tom Burton was my predecessor in the English Department and he met me at the airport, shepherded me into Ogden and was very sweet, very kind, and very helpful. Then, I went through the interview process and was very impressed with the committee, with their friendliness, their warmth and their welcoming—also by the efficiency of the process, because I had been waiting for months to hear from Puerto Rico whether I was being offered the job or not. At this point, I was sort of disappointed that they had taken so long, but also it just seemed like a better fit to come to Weber State. So, I mean, it was largely the charm of the English Department people that I met that drew me here. RL: Can you remember who was on your search committee? DK: Well, there was Tom Burton. Levi Peterson was Chair at the time. Sally Shigley was on the search committee. John Schwiebert may have been on the search committee and Michael Wutz might have been, but I'm not sure. These later became close friends. That's as much as I remember. I remember Sally because 6 I was going to teach one of her classes—her Renaissance class—as part of my interview process. She had sent me information and I had prepared to teach something about George Herbert, a 17th Century poet. So, I remembered her of course and I met her on the committee. After that it becomes a little bit of a blur in the nervous tension one feels when one's life is basically hanging in the balance. RL: Yeah, you get a lot of really big butterflies, don't you? DK: Right. Actually, the teaching went well because part of it was that I—having taught so much in the years previously and when students were not always being very cooperative. I had also taught at U.C. Davis as well as at Mainz, so I had a lot of teaching experience behind me. So, I had kind of a dynamic in the classroom that I wanted to set up, and Sally had prepared her students very well to be kind to me, I think. So, the class went just very well, and that made it a much more positive experience than if I'd kind of lost it in the classroom, so I enjoyed that. RL: So, your first impressions, of course, were formed by the search committee and by the department. When you got here, having taught in—I'm not certain the size of U.C. Davis, but I know U.C. Berkeley was tremendous. Did you notice a difference in the students when you finally got here? DK: I think I noticed a larger range in the students. I had bright students. I had students who were very capable and well-prepared at Weber State, but I also seemed to have a number of students who were struggling from the time that they got into my classroom. So, that was a difference because the students at 7 U.C. Davis tended to be more homogeneous. They weren't all happy to be there. They weren't all happy with their majors, etc.—I had several encounters with students who were telling me how they had been forced to major in science rather than in English, which was their love. The parents, I think, put a lot more pressure on the students at U.C. Davis also, which you could say, "It's the cost," except, it wasn't the cost. At that point, the price of U.C. Davis was very low, but— RL: Well, I think there's probably a difference in all of the U.C. campuses. They have very high admissions standards as far as GPA's and background and SAT scores and so forth. Here at Weber, with open enrollment— DK: Right. It wasn't quite open at the time. Some of my English colleagues were very miffed at that because I think Bob Smith had put some limitations on admissions, which didn't seem high to me, but there were a few things in place. That changed as I stayed here, but it's also possible that some of the students as U.C. Davis would not have been as motivated as students at Weber State in the sense that their parents may have been paying for their education. Whereas here—and that was I think the biggest shock—to find so many of the students were working full-time. That was my biggest surprise at Weber State. RL: The nontraditional aspect of it. So many of them come back from a mission and get married and are supporting at least a spouse if not children. That makes a big difference. DK: Yes, it did. One had to be conscious of that in terms of how much time students were able to put into their studies. I always kept my standards fairly high, but 8 then that had been my problem since I was teaching first grade. I was always like one year beyond what the students were capable of until I got to the master's program here, and at that point we all came together as to where I expected them to be and where they were. That was a very happy experience. I was very impressed here with a lot of the women students who were very very bright and very well read and just seemed capable of handling a ton of things at the same time. That was impressive. At U.C. Davis, it would probably be just the student and her books. RL: Well, and also, I think the difference in having the commuter campus as opposed to students living on campus or right close by, does make a difference too. Now, you'd been teaching in earlier years, probably in Catholic schools, and having been in a religious background, what was your reaction to coming to Utah to a totally different religious environment or approach to religion? What were your impressions? DK: Well, of course, the first thing I did was draw kind of a parallel between my own times in Catholic school as a very devout young person with the students here. The one annoying part of it was that the students, oftentimes, are much narrower in their approach. Not more narrow than conservative Catholics, certainly, at all, but much more narrow in their thinking than, for instance, the students at U.C. Davis. I was teaching a class in persuasion and I drew up a list of topics that I wanted the students to argue and the students invariably chose positions diametrically opposite to what I would argue. Of course, if they argued well they got an 'A' on the papers, but it began to dawn on me that this was, politically, the 9 state was very much the opposite of what I had left in California, in the north of California. Because as someone once pointed out to me, Southern California is so conservative that they've had mostly Republican governors, so, but that wasn't true the year I was in in Davis. So, it was the political rather than the religious element that I found challenging when I taught my students. RL: And yet that's surprising because Ogden is fairly different from the rest of the state. DK: Well, some people have called Weber "little BYU," so there was, at least historically, a group of very conservative men who were leading the university. Now, that's actually changed as I've been here. It's been wonderful to see women assume leading roles at the university, so at one point I had a—and this was exciting for me—a woman president, a woman Dean, and a woman Department Chair. It spoke well for Weber's openness to women and to their advancement. I think that colored life to a certain extent on the campus. One incident that occurred in English was that a student was complaining—I guess to a teacher, it wasn't to me. The teacher told him he should talk to the Chair because that would be his right, so he went to the Chair and I guess he was very disgruntled to find out that there was a woman Chair. She said, "Well, you can go on up, but the Provost, the Dean, and the President are all women also." It sort of gave him a little more perspective on what women's roles were, at least at this university. Not necessarily what he thought women's roles would be. This was a person from one of the Middle Eastern 10 countries, so, of course, the culture that he was from would have suggested that women didn't belong in such roles. He got his eyes opened very quickly. RL: But I think one of the things that we've been very lucky about is that women who have served in these capacities are so capable and have been so successful in carrying out their assignments and their missions. DK: Absolutely. RL: That's become more and more common in Arts and Humanities and other areas at the University too. Of course, President Milner, who just stepped down not that long ago, had that love and respect of everyone in the legislature and all of the people in higher education and so forth. I think she has set a really high standard that other women will be striving to reach. DK: And men. I mean, basically, because her political acuity was so great she constantly kept the legislators on our side despite the economic problems of the times, and Weber has continued to grow from this enormously. So, of course, it says a lot for Weber. RL: She gained a lot of respect for the institution. Weber had always been a little brother kind of place. I think it's risen in people's viewpoints. DK: Well, in fact, I've been very impressed at times reading just a little bit in the past five years about some nationally known figures from Weber and people certainly making their mark in our culture and in the American culture as a whole. Of course, I have to say that when I told my mentors at U.C. Davis that I was coming to Weber State, their first reaction was, "Oh, the winners of the Big Sky 11 conference." I said, "Well, I had never heard of Weber State, but the men at U.C. Davis certainly were very respectful." RL: That was right after the time that I think they had beat out both North Carolina and Michigan in the NCAA. First round they knocked them flat on their backsides. DK: Great. Yes. RL: I mean, with me, people would say, "Weber State? You came here from Weber State? Never heard of it." Then, all of sudden, they got the reports and it was, "Ruby, is that your Weber State?" It made quite an impression. As you say, it was not necessarily women, but the men that—well at least they didn't say, "Why?" or "Where in the world is that?" It gave a little bit of information to hang things on. It sounds like you were happy with the choice of coming here. DK: I was very happy. One of the things I've always appreciated about Weber is its people, I think of my department—and my department is very, very large and very diverse and tends to be like herding cats to a certain extent. People could have sticking points about things that you thought, "Well, this will be just a little conversation," and all of a sudden there's a big uproar. Yet, I always felt a kind of warmth, a kind of encouragement from my colleagues all through my career. I never felt, as I think often happens at large research schools, like I was competing in order to get tenure, in order to get promotion and in order to get various and sundry privileges that went with my job. The students also are very warm and very accepting of a lot of different things. Not necessarily different ideas, depending on which students you're talking about. It's quite possible that, of course, the composition classes are where I would hit this type of negative 12 response and that's because I would have students from across the campus, and I think some other departments may be a little bit more rigid in their thinking than the arts and humanities and even—well, not even, but the social sciences also would be in how they think about issues and how they think about people. I always felt like this—I always felt very comfortable around and accepted by both the faculty and the students. RL: You mentioned Tom Burton and Levi Peterson who were highly respected and very accomplished in their areas. Did they or any others—I realize you came here as an older person, but did anyone work in the capacity of a mentor for you? DK: I was thinking about that question because we didn't have a formal mentorship at the time in English or, as far as I know, across campus. But, Sally, Judy Elsley, and Priti Kumar included me in their lunch sessions together and I think that was a kind of mentoring. That was in my first maybe five years where we met all the time. We met on a regular basis, and they were very helpful about different things. Levi, of course, kept an eye on people. He would give you hints about things. Then, when I became Women's Studies Coordinator, which was in, I believe, my third year, that's its own little story, but Gloria Wurst had been coordinator the year before, and she very much took me under her wing in terms of how to go about taking care of the program. RL: The program was fairly new when you got here. DK: Well, yes. 13 RL: In 1990 or 1991, and I think Gloria was probably the second director. She was very invested in it and remains so even now. DK: Yes. Literally invested. RL: The three women that you mentioned that included you in their lunches, they were highly involved with the women's program in the early days. So, again, that's an example of the strong women that have been coming to Weber in the last 20 or 25 years. So, you became involved with the Women's Studies Program through them or just through seeing things about it on campus? DK: I'm not sure how I got word of the annual meeting—the Women's Studies annual meeting. I think it must have been my second year of being at Weber State that I either learned of it from something that was sent out or it's possible that Sally or Judy mentioned it to me. Anyway, I went to the meeting and we were concluding the business and they said, "Well, we need a coordinator for next year. Diane, what about you?" "Okay, let me think what skills I have." I had been Department Chair, of course, at both high schools that I had taught at, so I had some administrative experience under my belt—certainly not the amount that I could have used, but again, Women's Studies Coordinator is for three years and it's basically the secretary that runs the program. Really the point of that is that people promised to be supportive and mentoring in that position. The only drawback was I didn't have tenure yet, but I guess they decided they would take a chance. I think they thought that maybe having been a nun, I had some sense of how women should organize things and run them and be good to other women. So, I did in fact take on the job and Gloria 14 gave a lot of help. We had Norma, who was secretary, who had been secretary for Gloria but she wanted to retire at Christmas time, so we went on search for another secretary and we found Linda Shoemake. She was spectacular. She came from—she had been in an office for, I think the public schools for a long time and she came and she was fully invested in the program and extremely good at communicating with the other secretaries. Of course, Women's Studies is an interdepartmental program. RL: It's all volunteer. DK: Right. It's all volunteer and inter-departmental, so you have to be able to communicate with secretaries across campus in order to know what's going on and how you should be operating. Linda actually mastered the budget, which no one before or since, I think, has done. We actually did quite well with that, except that at one point I actually went hat in hand to five deans to beg for some money for Women's Studies. So, that was a really interesting experience for me to meet the deans in other colleges. So, Linda just really helped and I had set up—Gloria had actually done all the paperwork to get us through semester conversion, but I drew up sheets for the students coming in so that we could make their converting of the courses they had already taken from the quarter to semester credits easier. So, that was my accomplishment in that timeframe. Also, the University went into program evaluation and I set something of that up for Women's Studies—a sheet of criteria for whether the program was a success or not. Kathleen Lukken was the temporary Provost. I think at the time she was also in 15 charge of that evaluation program where we were looking across the University at different— RL: Accreditation and five year reviews. DK: Right. She had a website and I plugged all sorts of data in there. RL: Now, at about the time you came was when they were pushing Teaching and Learning Forum and strategic planning in different areas of the University and so forth. Were you involved in any of those activities or did you pretty much keep your nose to the grindstone with English and Women's Studies? DK: Only in terms of just setting up that evaluation criteria for Women's Studies. Of course, I participated at the Teaching and Learning Forum, but I also was trying to get—by this time Sesh was Chair and he was pushing me to get my book published so that I would be able to get Associate Professor or tenure out of that. RL: They were still doing both at that time. DK: Right, we would do this both at the same time. So, he directed me to a press where we'd probably be able to get the book published and I got an RS&PG grant—again, with the help of Sally—to change my dissertation into a book. So, that was very helpful, but— RL: What was the nature of the book? DK: It was on a medieval mystic called Julian of Norwich and—The Politics of Enclosure was what I wanted to call it, so that's what I eventually called the book itself. It was on the nature of her texts and how they focused on Jesus as mother. So, she was a medieval mystic and her visions—which she only had once, and 16 she turned out to live, we think, quite a long time—but she was a very grounded person, so she wasn't the type of mystic that's some place off in the clouds. She only had the visions once and she wrote a book from that and then after meditating for maybe 20 years on that, she wrote a longer book. So, I looked at the structure of the book in terms of enclosure and how this reflected her emphasis on Jesus as being a mother. Of course, the cognitive dissonance with that type of gender disparity that might exist for moderns was not prevalent in the medieval mind where gender was as gender did—that is to say, your actions determined your gender. Of course, your actions were highly circumscribed so they could determine you gender, but she listed qualities of Jesus that are mothering qualities. She also lived a life of enclosure, and she talks about being in Jesus, almost as in a womb, and there are different images in the Middle Ages that look at Jesus as a mother with a womb. But, that, again, would be the subject of another discussion. RL: You mentioned Bob Smith earlier as Vice President for Academic Affairs, and I think toward the end of his time here they made the change and that position was called Provost. Were you able, in your capacity as Coordinator of Women's Studies and on other committees as well, did you have much experience working with him? DK: I didn't actually. I knew his wife, Adele, much better because she was the one who was closest to Women's Studies. They gave us their cabin to use, for instance, for our annual meetings, so we did that for a couple of years. I knew and admired Bob, but I never actually worked alongside him. Probably the Dean I 17 would have worked most with would be Richard Sadler because he was the Dean for Women's Studies. June Phillips, I worked on various general education committees within the college, and we worked with her on those and also another thing on evaluation with her. There were large movements in terms of the student evaluation and program evaluation. The program evaluation was the most dynamic development change that I was witnessing as I taught here—after semester conversion which was its own little nightmare, but we managed to get through that. I worked with Levi Peterson on that when he was Chair to do semester conversion and then with Dean Phillips on those types of committees, the types of committees that looked at program review and general education development. So, those were the Deans I best knew. RL: Was Sherwood gone by the time you got here? DK: Yeah, he was no longer around. He had been replaced as Dean of Arts and Humanities by June. RL: You were here under two different presidents, Paul Thompson and Ann Milner. DK: Right. Two different Provosts—well, there was Bob Smith, there was Kathleen Lukken and Mike Vaughn while I was here. Who was the Richard that was head of diversity—well it wasn't called diversity— RL: Richard Ulaberry. DK: I did work with him because I was on the diversity committee again because, well, partly because I wanted to be there to represent Women's Studies and he wanted me to be there. He was very very supportive of Women's Studies, so I 18 tried to make sure that I worked well on that committee with him and we worked on the Diversity Conference, I don't know if the first one was one of the ones I worked on, but we worked to make the Diversity Conference a good one and handled all sorts of different issues. I, of course, was there, but first mostly to encourage looking at women's issues. RL: Then there was Mike Vaughn. Did you have occasions working with him? DK: No. I didn't work with people in their capacity as Provost at all, nor the Presidents in their capacity as presidents. As I said, Richard Ulaberry, who was Vice President for Diversity I guess at the time— RL: Assistant to the Vice President for Diversity. DK: Okay. He was the one I would have worked with and then Dean Sadler and Dean Phillips, so none of the other higher administrators. I was mostly intent of getting through my tenure and promotion process and running Women's Studies and teaching classes of which I've taught quite a few different ones. This is another appeal, I might say, of Weber State, to me—despite a Ph. D. in Medieval Literature, I am basically a generalist at heart. I love to dabble in a lot of different things, and Weber was a wonderful resource for being able to teach all sorts of different classes, and my Department Chairs encouraged and enabled that. It was easier, of course, when we were on quarters because there were simply more electives. Even when we had semester conversion and we were working in semesters I had opportunities to teach science fiction, fantasy, Perspectives in Women's Literature, some women's studies courses, the Women's Studies Critical Theory course for both women's studies and for English, and The Bible 19 as Literature. This was another happy dovetailing of my interest with what Weber State enabled. RL: So, the Weber State that you came to and the Weber State from which you retired, were different? It developed over the years and what are your impressions with the directions in which Weber has changed? DK: I've had to come to grips with having attended Jesuit universities and having been formed in a philosophy of education that came out of a Catholic background, I had a much more classical view of how a university should operate than I encountered even when I first came to Weber State and certainly throughout the decade and a half that I was here afterward. I think it's a necessary direction. I don't think it's—I mean, it would be very nice to say, "Well, this is what the University should look like." But I don't even know that's true even what is best for our country. Weber State has joined the computer revolution and the technological revolution in general. I taught all sorts of online courses and enjoyed putting courses on the internet even before it was popular. So, I had lots of material that my students were accessing through computers even before it became almost mandated that we do that. I don't like the business model of education, but I don't know if there's a way around it economically today. So, I think Weber has done what it needed to do to survive and to flourish in this particular culture—culture meaning the whole of the economic reality of the United States and its educational needs. It still needs a populous that is educated in order to keep a vibrant democracy going and even the philosophy of the Jesuits has changed with respect to that. They 20 see the need for a more democratic approach to education. So, universities may have offered scholarships to some poor but talented students in the past, but I think it's become increasingly necessary to draw in middle class and working class students because that's the only way they're going to survive economically and even politically today. People have to be savvy about those things. RL: Certainly, the level of wisdom that went into the idea of preparing Weber students for the economy and society here in Utah. I know it has paid off. There was an article recently about Weber having the highest return of investment for the schools in Utah. A greater percentage of our students are working. We do a lot more with a lot less money. Of course, when you first came, this was strictly, well, pretty much an undergraduate school. I think at that time we would have had three master's programs. DK: I don't even know if there was that many. RL: When I came there was accounting, education, and— DK: Nursing? Did nursing have one? RL: No, it was something in the social sciences area. It's grown to where we have quite a few master's program and I know when I first arrived people were saying, "There will never be doctorates at Weber." Now I'm hearing conversations in that direction. Yet, I think we're successful because we can still keep that approach to education where our faculty actually teach. They're doing research, they're publishing, they're doing all kinds of travel and gaining a lot of respect for the institution, but they still teach and they really love it. 21 DK: In fact, this is what impressed me about my replacement from Yale. She comes from a very high-powered university, obviously. She was tired of maybe the type of students who felt the world owed them a living at Yale. RL: Who was your replacement? DK: It was Samantha, and her name was changed because she was married, but I don't remember her last name right now. She turned out to be a spectacular teacher. She was so impressive in the classroom when she came for her interview that it put her at the top of the list for who we would hire. Before I left U.C. Davis, again, the economic situation changed. I heard other doctoral students at conferences like the Modern Language Association Conference, which is a big hiring place, mumbling that why would they want to go to a teaching university. I thought, "Well, maybe if you wanted a job you'd go to a teaching university because those are where the jobs are these days." So, the job market has changed. That's been a major change, but I do have to say that as I got older, it just flabbergasts me that people are so capable. These younger, incoming professors are so capable to be able to basically do everything. I'm not sure if it's the best use of their energy because it certainly must be draining on a certain number of them, but I think Weber is flourishing at this point with the type of people we've hired and the type of loyalty that both previous faculty and alumni have toward the school. I think it's on the right track for what has to be done. 22 RL: Now, you spoke about the students and how they were when you first came here and certainly the faculty and the staff have changed over the years. What are your impressions of the students? Did the face of the students also change? DK: I think, as far as the majors in English, I didn't find a big difference. I was finding in the composition students a sort of less preparedness in terms of attitude as I went on. Of course, I couldn't tell if it was because I was getting old and therefore, less patient about the type of things that they didn't want to do, like assignments. I did find that, it seemed at one point to me, and this was just a momentary dawning of an idea that the number of students—I was still getting good quality work out of most of my students and I was getting outstanding work out of some, but it seemed that there were a growing number of students who simply didn't bother with the final project. I heard other teachers complaining about the same thing. The students would be in class all semester and just not bother with the project that they needed to do in order to pass the class. That was one thing that I found to be unsettling. I don't know if it's partly because some of these students are younger in terms of they may have taken college courses while they were still in high school. RL: Advanced placement courses. DK: Yeah, advanced placement or the early college courses while they were in high school and they just weren't mature enough once they got to the university to buckle down and do the work. Or they had reached the point where they had exhausted themselves from high school and they weren't ready to take on college responsibilities, but that was a little bit of a challenge. On the other hand, 23 I was teaching master's students. I actually got to teach—and again, Merlin Cheney, who shepherded the master's program for English into its existence, was very willing to have me in that program and I found it very gratifying. I found students there who were very exceptional in terms of the quality of work they produced and their preparedness across the board for the courses that they were taking. That was a good deal of fun for me, intellectually. I also enjoyed my upper division courses quite a bit. RL: Were there students with whom you've kept in touch? DK: Actually, I do have a Facebook friend who was one of my students and then other people will say to me, "Oh, Dr. Krantz, I was one of your students." I'll see them in the grocery store or someplace else and we'll greet like that. I don't tend to be very personal in the classroom, so I didn't tend to keep a lot of students friendly, but I had, for instance, not too long before I retired, probably about five years before I retired, a student came back with—two students came back actually—they were both alumni and they had both taken a class from me and they had married and I had been at their wedding, I think. But, the sad part of that return was he was in a wheelchair. He was actually a quadriplegic because the summer after he graduated, they went to Idaho to do swimming and he dived off a cliff onto a pile of rocks. There had been storms—he had done it before in that particular spot on the river, but there had been bad storms that winter, so there was a pile of rocks where they didn't expect them. So, what was a blessing for him is he had already been hired by—it might have been BYU Idaho, I'm not sure, but he was working for the LDS church and so he had insurance that 24 summer even though he had just graduated from college. It looked like his young wife was going to be called upon to do quite a bit of work, but I was honored that they returned to talk to me, to see me as part of their return to Ogden. Then, Melissa Halverson, who was one of my students, and I used to share stories because at the time I had a pet rat and she kept pet rats, so we had something in common there, so she's one of my Facebook friends at this point. Several other students just, you know, dropped into my office when I was still on campus, but I don't correspond with anyone from here. I actually do correspond with a couple of my high school students, but that was a little bit exceptional also. I tended not to—I never believed in a classroom where you were kind of close friends with students, although people would often say, "Well, you really like so and so because she's so bright." I'd say, "Well, I also like other people that are not really doing that well in my class," so it's not fair to just say because this person is so bright is why I give her attention. I say "her" because at that time I was teaching all girls. I had a few friends among the high school students and a few friends among the students here. I attended several weddings. One of the reasons I got my second car—after which "totaling," I got my third car, which I totaled and then quit driving—at any rate, one of the reasons I got my second car was because I missed the wedding of one of the students I was friends with and I was very disappointed at that. She was just married in a place I couldn't get to by bus. So, a number of the students—a number of the men students also have come back 25 and talked to me when I was still in my office. I felt very gratified to see them and excited. RL: Do you feel like any students stand out in your mind as successes? Sometimes you take someone on and help them just a little bit and it makes a big difference. DK: I can no longer recall names. I have a terrible time with names to begin with and then I don't recall them very well afterward. I just remember some of my—the men students were very sharp, I'm not trying to downplay those at all, but just some of the women students who had such spectacular insights. I was trying to get one—I wrote a glowing letter for one student to try to get her into the University of Utah, but her ACT scores weren't good, so I actually called the head of the English department to see why they hadn't accepted her and basically, what I was accused of doing was lying for the student. The student was brilliant. She had insights into literature that I rarely encountered even in the master's level and I very much thought she belonged in a graduate program and at the time we didn't have a graduate program. He basically said he wouldn't trust any of the professors at Weber State to write letters of recommendation for their students. He said one of the letters he got for her seemed like a template. I said, "You know, I found her outstanding." I guess this is one of the signs that, in fact, my students and I did have a good relationship. I did have, over the years, a good number of requests for recommendations. There was only once when I told the student that I though perhaps she should try another professor because she hadn't done that well in my class. She hadn't done that well in anybody's class, which was why she was asking me for a recommendation, but I felt I couldn't 26 write her a good recommendation. Other students, both male and female, I could write glowing recommendations for and did. They were just very insightful. RL: Your standpoint was your different involvements of teaching that you would consider your biggest successes? Or is there something that you see as a— DK: Culminating experience? RL: Your greatest accomplishment. DK: I think having the Women's Studies program survive me is an accomplishment. I've enjoyed the teaching and I think my students have been—at least they were successful in terms of getting into higher education if they wanted to go there and that makes me very happy. For high school teaching too, over two and a half decades, I also realize that oftentimes—well, I got a letter from a students whom I had taught in high school some 15 years after I had taught the student saying how happy he was that he had me because he had encountered a situation where my advice in the classroom had gone a long way to helping him out in that situation. RL: That's always a good feeling. We'll never get rich, but it's the little gems that make it worthwhile. DK: I mean, basically, with teaching you cast your bread on the waters. It's planting ideas and I often thought—and I tried to do this with my Comp students—that I would make composition not only a course where I would teach them how to write for all of their courses in the future, but that I would also try to give them a little homely advice or advice from my own experiences as a student that I hoped 27 would one day stand them in good stead. So, I told them that sometimes it's just hanging in there that gets you a degree. It's not being the most brilliant one in the class or even necessarily the most productive one in the class, but keep persevering and it takes you a long way toward being educated. So, I think, you know, hopefully some of the students in their darker moments in college remembered that advice and kept on. RL: It sounds as though you've been rather happy with most of your accomplishments here at Weber. Any regrets about anything? DK: You'll see that at this point, I was looking to see what I had written as a regret—if I looked at anything with a regret. If I could go back, I guess what I would do is try to meet more colleagues from more of the colleges at Weber. I think I had a wonderful opportunity in terms of being on the Diversity Committee and being chair of Women's Studies to get a little bit across campus, but I think I could have got more out of some of those situations and I would have liked to have known more of my colleagues across campus that way. I did belong to—I was on the board of the employee association, the Faculty Staff association. I was on the board of that for several years and that was also a nice opportunity to meet people across campus. RL: And not just faculty members. DK: Right. Well, I've often—I have a very good rapport with the secretaries in English and the office manager in English, so I'm very pleased with that and I also got to take my dog to campus the last year I taught. I would leave him in my office. The first semester—the spring semester I took him first was because I was teaching a 28 night class and it's kind of eerie around here at night especially at nine at night. So, I said, "Well, I'm taking Benji and if somebody objects, then that will be the end of it," so I took him over and he stayed in my office while I taught and then I went back upstairs and I'd say, "Okay, we're going to take a walk home," and he was just as happy as a little lark and we walked home. By this time, of course, I had given up driving. The next semester was fall semester, I said, "Well, we got away with it in the spring, let's see what happens now." So, actually, the dean told me there were no restrictions on campus about bringing an animal. Of course, you're not supposed to bring them into the classroom, so I did not do that, but I had him in my office and the secretaries made a big fuss over him and I just thought he kind of enlivened the floor when he was out of my office on a leash. I think that would be the one thing I would try to meet more people and maybe socialize with more people because my socializing was mostly with the English department. RL: Which is not necessarily a bad thing. That's not much of a regret to have. It's good to be able to speak about your years here in such a positive tone. DK: It's good to be—I mean, I think even with my leaving, again, there was this support, this kind of quiet support. It wasn't people making a big fuss over it, but quiet support in a number of ways, so I was thinking that I should retire, not necessarily that I wanted to or needed to, but I should retire by the time I was in my later sixties, so I had gone to inquire at personnel and they said, "Well, wait until the end of the year before you put in a formal declaration." Well, that was before the voluntary separation plan was public and then a couple of months 29 later they made it public. I thought, "You know, those people, without saying anything directly, made sure that I would be eligible for that." RL: Directing you in the way to go. DK: So, again, it was just very quiet, but very helpful because, of course, I only worked for pay for the 17 years I was at Weber—I was teaching actively at Weber the 18 years I was here and then for graduate student fellowships for six or seven years while I was at U.C. Davis, but it wasn't much to build social security on, or even a pension, but you know, I'm doing well. I have no regrets that Weber State has done me a great deal of good and it's a fine place. It's got wonderful people in it and wonderful students and faculty and staff and I'm just glad I was here and got to know everyone. RL: Sounds like you built a good life here and have fond memories. DK: I do indeed. RL: What more can you ask for than that? DK: Exactly. RL: Diane, is there anything else you would like you tell us about or any information you would like to share? DK: I'm just glad that I also had the opportunity to give a last lecture because I had originally thought that it was supposed to be one's last lecture. Then, it turns out, no, you're supposed to be delivering it as if it were a last lecture. But, for me, it was a last lecture and it was my one opportunity to take my two areas of expertise and kind of reflect on them as a whole instead of in pieces. 30 RL: I was there and you managed to come in there and shine. DK: Thank you, Ruby. RL: You sounded as though you were happy with both of the pieces of your life and were able to combine them in a very intriguing manner. I really like that approach. DK: I think it's special to Weber State that I was able to do that. I don't know if there are other universities where that would have been possible. I think at other universities, things are very compartmentalized. It's part of the ambiance of Weber State that it allows for that. RL: And you brought together a rather eclectic audience just because of the nature of the lecture. DK: I did. I was hoping the scientists wouldn't get up and shoot me, but everybody seemed pleased, so I was happy. RL: Well, I want to thank you for spending time with us today. We try to get people's perspectives on different aspects of Weber State and this will really help us do that. DK: Thank you, Ruby. I enjoyed doing this. This was much more fun than I envisioned. RL: People get a little nervous about it, but just sit back, relax, and enjoy it. It's better than going to the dentist. DK: That's true. Almost anything is. 31 RL: Thank you so much, Diane. DK: Thank you, Ruby. 32

RAPE AND SHAME IN J.M. COETZEE'S DISGRACE Salman Muhiddin English Literature, Faculty of Languages and Arts, Surabaya State University salmanlatieff@gmail.com Drs. Much. Khoiri, M.Si English Department, Faculty of Languages and Arts, Surabaya State University much_choiri@yahoo.com Abstrak Pemerkosaan adalah setiap tindakan yang tidak diinginkan , manipulasi atau pemaksaan dalam bentuk aktivitas seksual. Tindakan pemerkosaan berdampak bagi pemerkosa dan korbannya. Dampaknya terhubung ke masalah psikologis , seperti kecemasan , depresi , dan gangguan mental lainnya serta perilaku moral yang bermasalah. Skripsi ini difokuskan pada tindak perkosaan yang dialami oleh karakter dan bagaimana hal itu menyebabkan rasa malu dalam novel Disgrace karya JM Coetzee. Secara khusus, tujuan skripsi ini adalah untuk mendeskripsikan bagaimana gambaran perkosaan yang dialami oleh karakter dan untuk mengungkapkan bagaimana perkosaan itu menyebabkan rasa malu dalam novel Disgrace karya J.M. Coetzee. Dalam analisisnya, skripsi ini menggunakan beberapa proses analisis , yaitu: (1) mengklasifikasikan kutipan-kutipan yang sejalan dengan masalah laporan, (2) menggambarkan tindakan perkosaan yang telah dialami oleh karakter, (3) mengungkapkan bagaimana pemerkosaan menyebabkan malu. Hasil analisis menunjukkan bahwa ada tiga macam pemerkosaan yang digambarkan dalam cerita. Pemerkosaan pertama terjadi antara David dan pekerja seks bernama Soraya. Pemerkosaan kedua terjadi antara David dan muridnya, Melanie. Yang ketiga dialami oleh putri David, Lucy. Setelah pemerkosaan itu, pelaku dan korban perkosaan merasa malu. David sebagai pemerkosa mendapatkan aib dan tekanan publik dari komite universitas dan mahasiswanya. Dia kemudian meminta maaf kepada keluarga Melanie. Sedangkan korban akan merasa malu untuk tampil di publik karena mereka takut aibnya terbongkar. Kata Kunci: Pemerkosaan, Malu, Aib Abstract Rape is any unwanted, manipulated or coerced forms of sexual activity. The act of rape has an impact to both the rapists and the rape survivors. The impact is connected to psychological problems, such as anxiety, depression, and other mental disorders as well as problematic moral behaviour. This study focuses on the characters' experience in raping and being raped, and how it leads to shame in J.M. Coetzee's Disgrace. In particular, the purpose of this study is to describe how rape is depicted by the characters and to reveal how the characters' rape leads to shame in J.M. Coetzee's Disgrace. In the analysis, this study does some processes of analysis, they are: (1) classifying the quotations which are in line with the problem of statements, (2) describing the rape that has been experienced by the characters, (3) revealing how rape leads to shame. The result of the analysis shows that there are three kinds of rape which is depicted in the story. The first rape is happened between David and the prostitute named Soraya. The second rape is between David and his student, Melanie. The third one is experienced by David's daughter, Lucy. After the rape, the rapist and the rape survivors get shame. David is getting disgrace and gets public pressure from the university committees and the students. He then ask for apologize to Melanie's family. While the rape survivors are getting shame after being raped. They are shame to make a public appearance because they are afraid of being discovered or found out by another person. Keywords: Rape, Shame, Disgrace INTRODUCTION The definition of rape varies state-to-state and can include anything from touching to actual penetration, but, generally, rape is any "unwanted, non-consensual, manipulated or coerced forms of sexual activity" (http://www.umich.edu). The act may be carried out by physical force,coercion, abuse of authority or against a person who is incapable of valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, or below the legalage of consent.The termrapeis sometimes used interchangeably with the termsexual assault, and the term of violent change into rape survivor. The rape effects can include both physical trauma and psychological trauma. Rape will also lead to shame. The feeling is connected to psychological problems such as eating disorders, substance abuse, anxiety, depression, and other mental disorders as well as problematic moral behavior. The shame is also reformed from some culture that sees the rape victims are dirt. For example, a rape victim especially one who was previously a virgin, may be viewed by society as being damaged. According to Alliance, victims in these cultures may suffer isolation, be disowned by friends and family, be prohibited from marrying, and be divorced if already married, or even killed. This phenomenon is known as secondary victimization. Secondary victimization is the re-traumatization of the sexual assault, abuse, or rape victim through the responses of individuals and institutions. Rape also affects the rapist. If someone known as a rapist he will be the public enemy. The rapist may lose their dignity, job, and friends. Punishment for rape in most countries today is imprisonment. Thus he will get ashamed but the right term for rapist is disgrace. On the previous study Feminine Shame Masculine Disgrace, Nurka put little bit different from shame, "people with disgrace will automatically being shame. Disgrace is brought from without ('put to shame'), or is directed outward from its source ('a person who or thing which is the cause or source of disgrace')." (Nurka, 2012: 311). J.M. Coetzee is a South African writer born under the apartheid government. Coetzee is unveiling many fragile topics in South Africa from many of his books. He elegantly put the theme rape over the race to depict the social condition of 'New South Africa'. Rape of women by men has occurred throughout recorded history and across cultures. As the novel background, South Africa is often labeled the rape capital of the world. The prevalence of rape, and particularly multiple perpetrator rape, is unusually high. Coetzee puts the concept of rape and shame in novel 'Disgrace'. The narrative follows a white South African professor's, David Lurie, escape to his daughter's farm, after he raped his student, Melanie. The farm is soon attacked and robbed by three black men, and the daughter raped. As father and daughter piece together their strained relationship and individual lives, they must reconcile their positions in the "New South Africa," to Lucy, is gang-raped by three men on her smallholding in the Eastern Cape, but she chose to say nothing about what happened to her. She decided to take the shame on her own. While on David, he rents a room in Grahmstown to help his daughter at the market once a week and to dedicate himself to the disposal of the dogs' bodies at the shelter. He cannot back to Cape Town because he has nothing left there for his disgrace. The university had replaced him with another professor. Once he went to Melanie house bring up all his disgrace to ask for forgiving to her parents for what he did through Melanie and family. In accordance of background study above, it can be simplify to discuss among two problems that emerge as significant concern toward this novel. How rape is depicted by the characters in J.M. Coetzee's Disgrace? How the characters' rape leads to shame in J.M. Coetzee's Disgrace? To answer the first problem, this study uses the concept of rape. Rape is a multidetermined behaviour that will ultimately be explained only by models incorporating a multitude of dimensions." (Prenkty and Knight, 1991: 657). The dimensions that are possibly to explain rape are through feminist theory, evolutionary theory, self-controlled theory, narcissistic theory, and crime theory. (Lowell, 2010: 159-161). Those theories can be used to help explain how rape occurs. Feminist theorists explain that the culture of male dominance is responsible for rape occurring. On his book Rethinking Rape, Cahill simply delivered that feminist theorists assert that rape is only one symptom of the larger problem of a male dominated society. Feminist theorists see rape as more of a violent act than a sexual act, and claim that rape is inspired by political motivations to dominate and degrade. Feminist theorists also deny that rape has an individualistic nature, but claim that rape is "nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear" (Cahill, 2001:16). Self control theory can lead to a man committing rape against a female. It is based on the premise that the male sex drive is uncontrollable. Men with this belief say that their sexual urges cannot be controlled and they are not responsible for their actions. Proponents of this theory "[propose] both that men's sexual energy is difficult to control and that women have a key role in its loss of control," since women deny sex to men who have to relieve their sexual drive (Polaschek & Ward, 2002, p. 13). This theory can be tied to Gottfredson and Hirschi's low self-control theory. Low self-control theorists posit that, since criminal acts provide immediate gratification, criminals will engage in them because they are not able to defer gratification. A biological explanation of rape includes Thornhill and Palmer's evolutionary theory of rape .Proponents of this theory claim that those men who were able to force their sexual desires on women were able to reproduce more efficiently, and thus have more offspring with their traits. Thornhill and Palmer are "dismissive of rape theories that emphasize the role of culture and learning in the acquisition of rape-prone traits, arguing that culture is only possible because individuals have evolved capacities that enable them to learn" (Siegert & Ward, 2002:6). Another theory that can explain rape is the narcissistic reactance theory, which is also tied to Gottfredson and Hirschi's (1990) low self-control theory. In this theory, narcissists are defined as having a "lower proneness to shame and guilt," having "unrealistically positive self-evaluations," and being "especially likely to respond to bad evaluations by blaming other sources, including the evaluator and the technique of evaluation" (Baumeister et al., 2002: 3). These theorists claim that the, "tendency to respond to esteem threats by getting angry and blaming others may contribute to the elevated level of interpersonal difficulties that narcissists report" (Baumeister et al., 2002: 4). The second problem is using the concept of shame. Some victims of rape are feeling dirty, devalued, and humiliated as a result of a sexual assault. Feelings of shame are often related to the powerlessness and helplessness victims experience during a sexual assault. Shame may also be a reaction to being forced by the assailant to participate in the crime. Shame is the painful feeling of having done or experienced something dishonourable, improper and foolish. Shame is what prevents many survivors from speaking about what happened to them. Shame is an attack on the survivor as a person. It is the feeling you get when you are sure that someone will think poorly of you because you were assaulted. Shame is longer lasting, and ultimately more dangerous than guilt. The feeling of shame is so intense for rape victims that many of them never tell anyone what happened to them. Even in psychotherapeutic settings, victims of rape often avoid talking about what happened to them. (http://www.healthyplace.com/abuse/articles/guilt-and-shame-of-being-raped/, retrieve on: 15 April 2014). Shame is already bears the germ of guilt. Shame becomes guilt when the social norms are internalized as one's own feelings of value and when self-condemnation anticipates public exposure. This presupposes the development of a personal centre, with the beginning capacity to regard oneself as the originator of one's actions, to evaluate and feel responsible for them. In contrast to shame, guilt is no more bound to the immediate presence of the other; its impact is more lasting. The event one is to be blamed for sin in the past. Thus the present rejection of shame becomes the already executed expulsion of elementary guilt. Instead of being exposed to, and paralyzed by, the others' gazes, the culprit feels, as it were, already abandoned. (Thomas Fuchs, 2003: 8). RESEARCH METHOD Research method that used in this analysis here must be qualified as an applying in literary appreciation. The thesis is regarded as a descriptive-qualitative study and uses a library research. This study uses novel of J.M. Coetzee, entitled Disgrace that published by Vintage, Random House, 20 Vauxhall Bridge Road, London, Great Britain, 1999 as the main data of the study. The data are in the form of direct and indirect speech of the characters, dialogues, epilogues and quotations which indicate and represent aspect of rape by the characters that lead to shame. This thesis is using the library method in collecting the data. It does not use the statistic method. That is why it is not served in numbering or tables. Library research used an approach in analyzing this study. The kind of library research which is used here is intensive or closely reading to search quotations or phrases. It also used to analyze the literary elements both intrinsic and extrinsic. The references are taken from library and contributing ideas about this study from internet that support the idea of analyzing. The analysis is done by the following steps: (1) Classification based on the statement of the problems. This classification is used to avoid the broad discussion. There are two classifications in this study. They are the depiction of rape and how it leads to shame. (2) Describing David Lurie's and Lucy's rape which is stated from the quotations or statements. (3) Describing how the shame and disgrace they got which is stated from the quotations or statements. (4) Revealing the relations between rape and shame. The quotations that showed how the characters' rape leads to shame are taken as data. (5) Drawing the conclusion based on the analysis which is in line with the problems. ANALYSIS The first analysis is the depiction of rape. In Disgrace the rape parted in three different background and motif. The first rape is from David to Soraya the prostitute woman. David uses his financial advantages to buy woman for sex. After the relationship with Soraya ended David engage to a scandal with his Student Melanie. David admits that he misused his authority as a lecturer to have sex with his student. This depicts the condition of male domination particularly in South Africa. The last rape happened to David's' daughter, Lucy. She raped by three black African intruders. The rape of Lucy remains mystery for her silence to not tell the policemen about the incident. In his age of fifty two, and divorced, David proclaim that he has solved problem of sex rather well even without a wife. However, the reason of his 'solved problem of sex' for over one year is Soraya, a high-class prostitute girl from an escort service. She is a coloured woman that David has a historical interest. She has a honey brown body. She is tall and slim, with long black hair and dark, liquid eyes. Simply said this beautiful girl becomes his sources of happiness. "It surprises him that ninety minutes a week of a woman's company are enough to make him happy, who used to think he needed a wife, a home, a marriage" (Coetzee, 1999:5). David's ideal marriage is with a wife that is a prostitute, but for him only and only at certain times. He met Soraya only on Thursday. On the other day he is back to his normal life. With Soraya he already find the happiness he belief. It makes him thought; there is no need to search for another life destination such as home and real wife. It made David rely on prostitution in his sexual life. Prostitution as the solution allows him to fantasize that a woman mirrors his wishes. He bought sex he wanted and she got extra money from him. For David money is no problem concerning that he lived alone with his salary as a professor and lecturer. As a consequence, he paid double for her. At least his money is worthy for finds her entirely satisfactory. As a customer, David is on dilemma seeing this prostitution. He knows that every woman in the prostitution is perforce. Women in prostitution would leave if they could. The term is an indicator of their hopelessness. "They tell stories, they laugh, but they shudder too, as one shudders at a cockroach in a washbasin in the middle of the night" (Coetzee, 1999:8). In their mind, they see that women in prostitutes are disgusted with their customer, so does the customers. Soraya just pretended to keep their customer satisfied. Prostitutes sometimes talk of the feeling of power they experience when they are with their customer. They are talking about a feeling of control when engaged in sexual acts. They soon feel the disadvantages of that particular way of life. It also exposes the fragility of the illusion of control over what another subject wants. If a man wants a woman to want what he wants, he can only force her to pretend to want his desire and then he has also to deny that pretence. David then met Melanie, his student. He treats her under the wine and romantic music, the Mozart clarinet quintet. He made his move to seduce Melanie in some conversation. He talked about poetry, music, food, and his past life. Then, after he offered some liqueur, the higher alcoholic drink, he said directly to Melanie, asking her to do something reckless. He touch her and said "You're very lovely . Stay. Spend the night with me." (Coetzee, 1999: 16). Melanie refused his liquor but accept a shot of whisky in her coffee. She should say no at that time instead wonder and ask why. She trapped to this conversation: 'Why?' 'Because you ought to.' 'Why ought I to?' 'Why? Because a woman's beauty does not belong to her alone. It is part of the bounty she brings into the world. She has a duty to share it.' (Coetzee, 1999: 16) As a professor of language and communication, David, could easily manipulate the words, he says. The way he talked to Melanie reflects his experience through many women. "Smooth words, as old as seduction itself." (Coetzee, 1999: 16). He says it indirectly to make Melanie believes what he belief. He makes the statement so convincing and become hard to decline. Melanie herself was mistaken to ask more to David, because she did not know how to deal with him. Instead saying 'why', she should say 'no' to David when he asked her to stay. So she would not get in this complicated situation. Maybe she should already say 'no' when David asked her to come to his house. David was in a grip of something and he would not let it go. However, what is done is done. The next day David asked Melanie to go lunch. Again, Melanie cannot reject David offer. There is still time for her to tell a lie but she is too confused, and the moment passes. In the restaurant, they got an awkward situation because Melanie lost her appetite and there was a long silent. Then David asked to Melanie about what is on her mind: `Is something the matter? Do you want to tell me?' She shakes her head. `Are you worried about the two of us?' `Maybe,' she says. `No need. I'll take care. I won't let it go too far.' Too far. What is far, what is too far, in a matter like this? Is her too far the same as his too far? (Coetzee, 1999: 19) After the harassment from David a day before, Melanie must wonder about his plan. The women should worry about her safety. Because feminist, Cahill, agree that one of the rape purpose is to take women into state of fear, and it is he responsibility of masculinity and the construction of patriarchy. Men are possible to keep women as a fragile creature and need protection. Knowing that Melanie may feel bad about this situation, David guarantees that the thing would not go too far, he put Melanie to feel safe at least. This is another tactical seduction that is done by David. He manipulates the situation and manages it like there is nothing happen like everything is fine. It is not hard for him to do it concerning that Melanie was an easy target for him. The rapist always seeks the powerless people to be his target. Finally, they have sex for the first time. Even though, it is not the first time for both of them. David took Melanie to his house after getting lunch in the restaurant. They did it on the living room with rain sound pattering. Melanie is passive on the first time they have sex. While David finds the act of her passivity is so enjoyable. Melanie is passive like Soraya. She does not crawling, bite, and aggressive. She is his typical woman he was searching for. He was having sex with another whore after Soraya left him. But he did not like it because she is aggressive. So he never does it again with her. His desire was only on Melanie this time. It is stated in the novel that "She struck up a fire in me" (Coetzee, 1999: 166). Fire is a symbolization of energy that can stimulate one's desire. This fire heat up his libido that pushes him doing something undesired to the core. In the rape theory, David can be considered as narcissistic because he tend to be willing to do whatever it takes to achieve the goal that they want from a relationship, including rape. In this theory, narcissists are defined as having a lower proneness to shame and guilt, having unrealistically positive self-evaluations, and being especially likely to respond to bad evaluations by blaming other sources, including the evaluator and the technique of evaluation. Narcissistic suits David as a rapist. He has lower sense of shame, as teacher and student he took Melanie to go out lunch just the two of them. Considering that he is the famous person in the city, people will wonder what is he up to. In the restaurant he seduced her and ask her to do something wild. He is implying that she has to have sex with him. But the relationship become a scandal that makes him lost his job. After realizing that there's nothing left for him in Cape Town, David wanted to change the atmosphere. He moved to the east across the country to the rural town of Salem in the Eastern Cape, where his daughter Lucy lives alone on a smallholding, growing vegetables to sell at the Saturday market and running a kennel for dogs. David begins a new life there, helping Lucy at the market, assisting Lucy's neighbour Petrus with odd jobs as "I am the gardener and the dog-man" (Coetzee, 1999: 64), and volunteering at the Animal Welfare Clinic with Bev Shaw. Lucy is leftish which make her the reversal of her father. She even did not want call herself a boss by Petrus. She is not individualist but socialist. She helps people no matter who they are. But this time she made big mistake by risk herself to strangers. Lucy tells David to stay outside while she takes the tall man indoors to use the phone. The second man runs in to the house behind them and locks David out. In a total panic, David let go of the bulldog's strap and commanded the dog to go after the boy. Then he kicks down the kitchen door. David tried to save Lucy but he felt someone whack him over the head. He falls down, barely conscious, and feels himself being dragged across the floor. When he realize, he's locked in the bathroom and wondering what's going on with Lucy. The second man comes in to get the car keys from David and then locks him back in. Meanwhile, he looks out and sees the tall man with a rifle. The tall man starts shooting the dogs one by one, splattering brains and guts all over the place. And if that isn't bad enough, the second man and the boy come back in the bathroom, douse David with alcohol, and set him on fire, luckily just his hair catches burning and he extinguishes himself in the toilet. They leave, stealing David's car. David and Lucy are left to deal with everything that just happened. During this whole nightmare, Petrus is nowhere to be found. After being raped, Lucy decided to not report the rape to the police. The silent of Lucy depict the subjugation or conquest. "No I am not blaming you, that is not the point. But it is something new you are talking about. Slavery. They want you for their slave." (Coetzee, 1999: 159). Lucy response him and disagree with "Not slavery. Subjection. Subjugation." (Coetzee, 1999: 159). This makes Lucy as the rape survivor depend on men to get protection. The second analysis is about how rape leads to shame. In Disgrace the rape that experienced by the rapist and the rape survivor transform and effect their life worst then before. From the previous study Nurka classified the effect of rape by gender: (1) Female as the object will get shame, (2) men as the subject will take disgrace. (Nurka, 2012: 310). The male character, David Lurie, got disgrace after doing sexual harassment to his student, Melanie. As the rapist, David will be haunted by his sin and losing his reputation and his job. While Lucy, the rape survivor got shame after being raped. The act of rape means to take away by force which the dignity is to be taken. Loosing dignity makes woman feel shameful. It turns out that the act of rape is not only giving shame feeling to the victims but also to the rapist. Soraya knows about the attachment of shame for being prostitute. Then when she met David in the midtown, she was afraid if the public know who she is. This is because David is the famous person in Cape town. "He has always been a man of the city, at home amid a flux of bodies where Eros stalks and glances flash like arrows" (Coetzee, 1999: 6). Concerning that shame is social affect associated with being discovered or found out by another person, she knew that he is the famous person in the city. It is too risky to stay in public with him. There is a high possibility that her secret will spread. Then to keep her pride for her children Soraya decided to quit the job. She did not want her children knows their real mother is. So she decided to resign from the escort and disappeared from that business. David ought to end but he pays a detective to tracking Soraya instead. When he got the number he makes a call. Soraya surprise and wondering abot how he gets the numbers. She did not talk for a moment. She wondered because the agency has a rule about keeping the former prostitutes identity. After the silent she said "I don't know who you are,' she says. 'You are harassing me in my own house. I demand you will never phone me here again, never." (Coetzee, 1999: 10). After this moment he did not contact Soraya anymore. For Melanie, after she gets the coercive sexual by David, she becomes a different person in class. She even absent when it was on midterm test. Then she told her boyfriend that her professor have sex with her. The boyfriend then angry to him and vandalize his car, deflated the tires and injected a glue on both door. "After this coup de main Melanie keeps her distance. He is not surprised: if he has been shamed, she is shamed too." (Coetzee, 1999: 31). The gossip may be starting to spread so she tries to not meet him. But on Monday she reappears in class and beside her, leaning back in his seat, hands in pockets, with an air of cocky ease, is the boy in black, the boyfriend. The student in the class knew about what is going on from the gossip. They are clearly waiting to see what the professor will do about the intruder. Professor let the boyfriend intrude to the class but then he asked Melanie to come to the office and tell her to not let the boyfriend do that again. After that moment Melanie never come to the class anymore. Furthermore, after being ashamed she decided to give up her study in the university. Thus her father asked David to tell Melanie to not give up. At this moment, Melanie's father , Mr. Isaacs did not know that David is the causes of his daughter wanted to quit the university. As David thought "I am the worm in the apple… how can I help you when I am the very source of your woe?" (Coetzee, 1999: 37). After knowing that David rape his Doughter Mr. Isaacs tell him that what e sad done is not right. He imply that he does not sending her daughter to the nest of viper that poisoned her daughter with the act of rape. He feels ashamed about what was happen. He disappointed that an educated person like Professor David do an embarrassing and stupid thing. After the university fired David, Melanie continued her study. From the university scandal Melanie is regarded as victims and the professor is the one who responsible. Thus the disgrace runs to David. Even though Mr. Isaacs' family got ashamed too from his rape they not reported this to the policemen. David is lucky this time. It is obvious that the rape survivor will blessed with so much shame. It is also happened on Lucy. The first thing she did is staying at home. She does not want to go outside. The trauma and the fear will grow upon her. In earlier days after the rape he stated that he was nothing, heist e dead person. She did not want to meet people too. She would rather hide her face, and he knows why. Because of the disgrace. Because of the shame…. Like a stain the story is spreading across the district. Not her story to spread but theirs: they are its owners. How they put her in her place, how they showed her what a woman was for. (Coetzee, 1999: 115) It is a related to shame that person who gets shame will hide itself from public. Lucy was avoiding he people talk and question. It takes a time to recover from this trauma. But she could not let it go to long because if she do not going outside she will lose her job and stall in the market. To replace her, David and Petrus doing her job in the market. The damage that is given to Lucy, the rape survivor, may attached forever. She felt everything will never be the same. "One is never oneself again?" (Coetzee, 1999: 124). Is "Lucy" still "Lucy"? Lucy also emphasizes the existence of herself "I am not the person you know. I am a dead person and I do not know yet what will bring me back to life." (Coetzee, 1999: 161). With nothing to left she got nothing to lose. Then she decided to take consequences of human body in pain. Lucy takes the consequences of human body in pain. "I must learn to accept. To start at ground level. With nothing. Not with nothing but. With nothing. No cards, no weapons, no property, no rights, no dignity." (Coetzee, 1999: 205). From the sentence above it is shown that Lucy is starting to understand her condition after being raped. She decided to start her business in farm and her vendor. Although she realises that she has nothing left. The rapist also takes her dignity that is the biggest loose after the rape. A woman without a dignity will judge herself as a shameful person. She also feels that she has no right to her own land and properties. It is because Petrus take over it. As the rapist, David Lurie got public pressure from university committee and the students. At first he does not confess that he is guilty. But after her daughter being raped by three African intruders he contemplate and change his attitude. Then he ask for apologize to Melanie's family. After the scandal of lecture and his student were reported in university newspaper, the university made a committee. When answering the question, David giving no clue to the judges. David was making confusing issues to them. The committee not wanted to force David to make apologize. They wanted to help David to keep doing his career by making a statement to make it clear. But he resisted by saying "I am being asked to issue an apology about which I may not be sincere?" (Coetzee, 1999: 58) David's refusal to be "disgraced" can be read as a warlike strategy in the realm of sexual politics. For by renouncing the assault, David transfers the shame he feels upon Melanie in an attempt to strengthen his wavering masculinity and suppress her intimidating femininity. He plead guilty when he was in the committee. He remains silent and giving no story from his side. When David asked someone in the neutral position that is his former wife, Rosalind. She told him that he should have known that he is too old to be meddling with other people's children. He should have expected the worst from the scandal. She also blame the two for all that happened. `Don't blame her! Whose side are you on? Of course I blame her! I blame you and I blame her. The whole thing is disgraceful from beginning to end. Disgraceful and vulgar too. And I'm not sorry for saying so.' (Cortzee, 1999: 45) David feels disgrace on himself but he still cannot accept it. He said nothing to the committee and plead guilty. But from her former wife explanation he cannot resist it. Even though he must be so angry when he heard what she said. But he controlled his emotion and accept the disgrace given by the rape. For earlier, David is described as "mildly smitten with Melanie" and that "it was no great matter: barely a term passed when he did not fall for one or other of his charges" (Coetzee, 1999: 11-12,). Masquerading as the tragic subject of the ungovernable impulse of Eros, David publically justifies and renounces the stigmatization of Melanie's rape.David's lack of a sincere apology and his refusal to publically acknowledge the assault, along with his fanciful illustration of himself as a "servant of Eros" (Coetzee, 1999: 52) demonstrates the way in which disgrace (though masked as desire) is felt by men as a response to threatening femininity. Spurned and embarrassed by the loss of his womanizing charms, David's shame is directed into lust, later to be passed off as "Eros" when he encounters Melanie Isaacs, whom he refers to as "Melanie: the dark one" (Coetzee, 1999: 8). As with Soraya, David's seduction of Melanie is an attempt not only to reclaim sexual privilege, but to emphasize the traditional patriarchal procedures of the European culture, in which such privilege, like Lurie himself, is embedded. The worst thing from David's disgrace is how he, an intellectual person which had title a professor, becomes a person who can do nothing except working in bad place. To be a dog-man, that he already underestimate it on Petrus. By the time, David realized that he can't do nothing but accept what the destiny does. The situation that makes him to take any job turned David into a rational man. What David has and does in the university, which let him to become an intellectual people, disappear when he moved out. He then realized that what he writes about Byron and natural poets all this time is all about the death person. He never writes something in contemporary. CONCLUSION There will be two conclusions which are in line with the statement of problems. The first conclusion is about the depiction of rape in the novel Disgrace. The second conclusion is about how rape lead to shame through the rapist and the rape survivor. From the analysis that has been done about the depiction of rape. It can be concluded that that the author, J.M. Coetzee use the rape to describe the condition of race in post apartheid. All the rape in this novel is interracial rape. There are three kinds of rape experienced by three female characters. The first and the second rape was done by David, white male character that desiring ethnic women. He lived in promiscuity or womanizer that used to have sex with a lot of women. Then in the end he involved in scandal with his student, Melanie. Then the third rape was done to David's daughter, Lucy. She was being raped by three African intruders. The first rape is happened between David and the prostitute, Soraya. On his age of 50 he has no plan to married again. Thus, it made David rely on prostitution in his sexual life. His ideal marriage is with a wife that is a prostitute, but for him only and only at certain times. He met Soraya only on Thursday. On the other day he is back to his normal life. With Soraya he already find the happiness he belief. It makes him thought; there is no need to search for another life destination such as home and real wife. Prostitution gives the solution that allows him to fantasize a woman to mirrors his wishes. This can be classified as rape concerning that every women in prostitutes would leave if they can and she has to do it because there are no other choices. But in the end Soraya decided to quit the job as prostitutes so he has no other place to suit his lust. Then, accidently David met Melanie on the way home. She is his student from romantic class. Melanie is a colored girl, this make David interest to her concerning that he is desiring ethnic women. He forced her to have sex. He did not force her physically but seduced her with suggestive words. The relationship between them then became a scandal in the campus and also became the talk of the city. He left the town and visits his daughter in other town to run away from the situation. During his visits to his daughter, three black men attack Lurie and Lucy at home. The men lock Lurie in a bathroom and rape Lucy in the bedroom. The second half of the novel deals with the aftermath of that moment. Lucy did not want to tell the police and keep silent about what happened to her. She also rejected her father offer to move to Holland. She claimed that it is a private matter and not to be shared. With nothing to left she got nothing to lose. Then she decided to take consequences of human body in pain. Accepting the subordinates , she is willing to sacrifice herself, brings peace between the different racial groups in South Africa. The second conclusion is about how rape lead to shame. In Disgrace the rape that experienced by the rapist and the rape survivor transform their life worst then before. The act of rape means to take away by force which the dignity is to be taken. Loosing dignity makes woman feel shameful on herself. While the rapist that considered as a thief will judge as disgraceful person after the rape. The male character, David Lurie, got disgrace after doing sexual harassment to his student, Melanie. As the rapist, David will be haunted by his sin and losing his reputation and his job. While Lucy, the rape survivor got shame after being raped The first shame is from the prostitute, Soraya. She felt the shame for being prostitute because every prostitutes is attached to shame. Then to keep her pride for her children, Soraya decided to quit the job. She did not want her children knows their real mother is. So she decided to resign from the escort and disappeared from that business. The second shame is from Melanie that involved in scandal with her lecture, David. She was shame for being reported even as victims. She often not attended the class even it was a midterm test. But she still survives to continue his study to university. This is maybe because David was kicked out from the university and not to be someone near her. The third shame is from Lucy, she raped by three African intruders. She is a lesbian that live alone in the small town. She thought that the rape that she got is the payment for living in South Africa. She felt that the rapist wants her to back home to Europe because the westerner's does not belong to South Africa. Then she decided to stay and stay silent about the rape, and keeping her shame as a private matter. The last disgrace is from David, as rapist, David Lurie got public pressure from university committee and the students. At first he does not confess that he is guilty. He loses his job as a professor and turn to be an animal's clinic assistance for killing unwanted dog. After her daughter raped by three African intruders he then contemplates and changes his attitude. He ask for apologize to Melanie's family for his feeling guilty that he never confess before. The ending of the novel shows us that Lucy as the rape survivor could start her life again from the start. She continued to seeding a new plan even she is on pregnancy. He father, David, started to understand that he live in South Africa. Then, he stop complaining about the condition. Disgrace ends with Lurie staying on in Graham's town, continuing to help out at the animal clinic. The open ending of the novel shows Lurie playing excerpts from his opera in the making on a makeshift toy banjo to the three legged dog, Driepoot, who is awaiting his turn for mercy killing. REFERENCE Abegunde, Babalola. 2013. Re-Examination of Rape and Its Groing Jurisprudance under International La. Journal of Politics and Law. Vol. 6, No. 4. Abbey, A., Parkhill, M., Clinton-Sherrod, A. & Zawacki T. 2007. A comparison of men who committed different types of sexual assault in a community sample. Journal of interpersonal violence. Baumeister, R., Catanese, K. & Wallace, H. 2002. Conquest by force: a nacissistic reactance theory of rape and sexual coercion. Review of general psychology Bushman, B., Bonacci, A., Dijk, M. & Baumeister, R. (2003). Narcissism, sexual refusal, and aggression: testing a narcissistic reactance model of sexual coercion. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Cahill, A. (2001). Rethinking rape. Ithaca: Cornell University Press Coetzee. J.M. 1999. Disgrace. London: Vintage, 2000 Fuchs, Thomas. 2003. The Phenomenology of Shame, Guilt and the Body in Body Dysmorphic Disorder and Depression. Journal of Phenomenological Psychology. vol. 33, no. 2. Gottfredson, M. & Hirschi, T. 1990. A general theory of crime. Stanford: Stanford University Press Lowell, Gary. 2010. A Review of Rape Statistics Theories and Policy. Undergraduate Review. Massachusetts: Bridgewater State University. Nurka, Camille. 2012. Feminine Shame/Masculine Disgrace. Journal of Cultural Study. University of Melbourne Prentky, R. & Knight, R.1991. Identifying Critical Dimensions for Discriminating Among Rapists. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology Siegert, R. & Ward, T. 2002. Rape and evolutionary psychology: a critique of Thornhill and Palmer's theory. Journal of Aggression and violent behavior

Oral history interview with William Warren Steele, conducted by Jennifer Payne at Norwich University in Northfield, Vermont, on 12 September 2013, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. William "Bill" Steele was a member of the Norwich University Class of 1959; his interview includes discussion of his classmates and his memories of Norwich University as well as his later career and his family history. ; 1 William Steele Oral History Interview Interview Date: Interview Location: Sullivan Museum & History Center, Norwich University Interviewed by Jennifer K. Payne Transcribed by Thomas H. King III JENNIFER PAYNE: This is Jennifer Payne with the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. Today's date is September 12, 2013 and we're at the Sullivan Museum and History Center and I'm with Bill Steele. Welcome. WILLIAM STEELE: Thank you. JENNIFER PAYNE: Can you give me your full name please. WILLIAM STEELE: William Warren Steele. JENNIFER PAYNE: And where were you born? WILLIAM STEELE: I was born in - we lived in Roxbury but I was born in Montpelier in 1937. JENNIFER PAYNE: Ah-ha, ok. Do you have a nickname? WILLIAM STEELE: Bill JENNIFER PAYNE: Ok. What made you decide to choose Norwich? WILLIAM STEELE: Mainly it was family history. We didn't have a lot of guidance in those days about possibilities of college and all that, and my grandfather, two uncles, my father, and my cousin had all gone to Norwich. So it was sort of expected that a male Steele would go to Norwich and so that's where I went and also Norwich had a great influence over Montpelier in those days. My junior varsity high school football coach was a Norwich man. My girl's father was a Norwich man. Norwich sort of permeated Montpelier. So it was sort of a no-brainer I would go to Norwich and I did. JENNIFER PAYNE: Oh. So you were class of 59? WILLIAM STEELE: Class of 59, yeah. JENNIFER PAYNE: And what was your major? WILLIAM STEELE: Electrical Engineering. JENNIFER PAYNE: Who was your roommate? WILLIAM STEELE: Well my freshmen year it was Dick Thayer and Tom Turner. We were in Alumni Hall and I wouldn't have missed that for the world. It was a fire trap, but it was a lot of fun and Tom and Dick were my roommates. We were all three engineering majors. Dick later on changed to business I think, but we were all in one room for that freshmen year and I wouldn't have missed the Alumni Hall experience for the world. 2 JENNIFER PAYNE: What was it about, what was it about it exactly? Were there, was there anything that you remember doing there that you liked? WILLIAM STEELE: It was an old, old building, and as I say a fire trap, and because it was a fire trap there was no sprinkler system or anything in those days. It was all very old wood, dried out, painted probably 30 times, and so if a fire had ever started it would have gone pretty fast. So in our rooms we had, in front of the window, we had a high stool and on that stool was a bucket and we had to keep that bucket full of water all the time, and that was inspected to make sure no algae was forming so we had to take the bucket down and clean it out and refill it with water every day to make sure that didn't happen. So it was pretty basic in those days. But I made a lot of friends there, ah, Dick and Tom, and Pier Mapes. I think Jack Joyce was with us in those days. Friends that have lasted up over the years. JENNIFER PAYNE: That's wonderful. Were you in a fraternity? WILLIAM STEELE: No, no. Fraternities then, oh I think about a third of the Corps, when I talk about the Corps I'm talking about total student body, because if you were in Norwich you were in the Corps. So about a third of the Corps belonged to the six fraternities. The other two thirds of us did not. It was, it cost 12 dollars a month which wasn't insignificant in those days, and I only had 20 to begin with. So that, and also when I got to Norwich I didn't know what fraternities were. I had no background in any of this and as a result when they started talking about pledging and rushing and that kind of thing, I didn't have the foggiest idea what they were talking about. So the fraternity experience sort of passed me by and when Ernie Harmon got rid of the fraternities a few years after I graduated I wasn't too sorry. There was a lot of, Ernie Harmon thought that fraternities did not belong in a military school, and I think in retrospect that I agreed with him. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow. Did you play any sports? WILLIAM STEELE: I played intramural baseball and that, that was it. And that was my freshmen year. After that I was not sports inclined. JENNIFER PAYNE: What activities did you do? WILLIAM STEELE: My freshmen year, you know when you're a freshmen you do everything. After that you do nothing [laughing], particularly when you're an electrical engineer because your total focus was on getting through the engineering curriculum. But my freshmen year I belonged to the Glee Club, which was sort of fun. We did some traveling. And I belonged to the Drill team and that was a lot of fun and we did traveling with that also. JENNIFER PAYNE: Oh wow. What did you do to relax? WILLIAM STEELE: I think - our entertainment, most of it was pretty regulated. You know we started in the morning would be rousted out, we'd march down to breakfast, we'd come back and then it was time to get your room cleaned up and get ready to go to your first class. Then in the evening it was back to the barracks and then almost immediately go down for dinner, and then when you came back from dinner it was study. So most of that was pretty regulated. I can 3 remember the one really bright spot relaxing time during the week was when we went down to Harmon Hall in the basement where there was the only TV on campus and we would watch Air Power [on Sunday Nights] 1. That was the big thing, was watching Air Power and it was all air power from the Second World War of course. And that was the big bright spot. There were some other things, I mean we did do some things in Montpelier, some social things in Montpelier. But the, but Montpelier was a little difficult. Most of us did not have cars. So if you wanted to go into Montpelier for something normally you hitchhiked. And so I hitchhiked back and forth many a time. JENNIFER PAYNE: Right up Rt.12. WILLIAM STEELE: Yup JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow. Do you remember any songs? If you were in the Glee Club did you, do you remember any songs from your year? WILLIAM STEELE: Oh there was one that the faculty really liked: "There is Nothing Like a Dame" from South Pacific. And that was great, a whole bunch of guys of a mens school isolated and everything. The faculty thought that, that was most appropriate. So we sang that. Of course everyone sang "On the Steps of Jackman." I'm not sure that anybody sings that anymore because it's sort of outdated. JENNIFER PAYNE: How does it go? Do you… WILLIAM STEELE: It was, oh I remember it well. JENNIFER PAYNE: Would you? WILLIAM STEELE: Of course, "On the steps of Jackman, crying like hell, lies a new born baby. Can't you hear that son of bitching bastard yell? Oh who could be the father? Maybe it's you. Just another bastard son of old NU." [Laughing] JENNIFER PAYNE: That was wonderful. WILLIAM STEELE: Well you know it's sort of out of date now, but because of the sexual revolution and everything else, but back in those days there was sort of an image of a Norwich guy getting lose, impregnating some local girl, and then bugging out and hiding back in the Corps. And the idea of, you know, we talked about it but I never saw it happen, but we talked about lining the Corps up and having the girl troop the line up and down with a baby in her arms, looking for the offending cadet. So that was the kind of image that went on in those days, and the idea of a girl bringing the baby and putting it on the steps of one of the barracks, which Jackman was then. It was Headquarters Company. That was sort of an image that everyone was in favor of. Interesting thing, during our 50th anniversary, which was just 4 years ago, we were all lined up on the steps of the new Jackman, and when we were lined up for the picture being taken somebody started singing "On the Steps of Jackman" and the whole class sang it. 1 Added at the request of William W. Steele '59. 4 JENNIFER PAYNE: Oh I wish I could have been there for that. WILLIAM STEELE: [Laughter] That's a, yeah too bad they didn't have a microphone. JENNIFER PAYNE: That would have been great. Oh boy. Who was your favorite instructor at Norwich? WILLIAM STEELE: Oh that's easy. His name was Martin Webb. And at the end of our sophomore year we were told that we were gonna really be brought into line because we had coming our junior and senior year a new professor and his name was Martin Webb. He was 42 years old, he was a full Colonel in the Army, had been selected for Brigadier General at the age of 42, which is pretty fast, and then had taken a physical, had a heart condition and so the Army tossed him out. And he decided to come to Norwich, which was a military school, to do his teaching. So we, the other professors had instilled fear in us to this guy was going to come and really crack the whip. Well he came and that was not the way he operated at all. He took us under his wing, and he was the greatest example of a man I think that I have ever met. He did everything right. I can remember we were very proud when we had winter carnival of most things because he was there, he was our professor, and he was real full of carnival. And he had the most expensive class A uniform dress blues that I have ever seen. In those days we thought it cost $300 which would probably be like $1500 or $2000 now. Very good material and of course tailored to fit him exactly. Martin Webb took care of us and he made sure, he tried to make sure that we were properly trained for what we were going to do and of course a lot of us went into the Army. And so what he would do, which was illegal because the drinking age then was 21, he would have Sunday afternoon receptions at his house, and he would be dressed in his dress blues, and his wife Silvia would be in a hostess gown, and they would have our class, which was only 8 people, our senior class, out to their house for h'ordeuvres and drinks. And I didn't really realize it at the time, but what he was doing was grooming us for the social life of the Army. It was just one of those things that he took on, and then I think within a year of the time I graduated and went out to New Mexico I got a letter from Colonel Webb, and he had found a job that he thought I might be interested in, in Vermont. And of course I already had a job at White Sands Missile range so I wasn't interested in that. It just shows that even after we graduated he was looking out after us. Yeah one of the finest men I ever met. I came back five years after I graduated, they had an engineering symposium, and we were, some of us graduates were going to talk to the undergraduates at Norwich. And I came back for that, and Martin Webb had died within a few months before that. That bad heart of his that got him thrown out of the Army finally caught up with him and he had collapsed and died and so that was sort of sad. But he was the best professor that I ever saw, and the finest man I ever met. JENNIFER PAYNE: That's wonderful. What was your least favorite class at Norwich? WILLIAM STEELE: [Laughing] Advanced mathematics. And it was, and the reason I tell myself now was probably because the professor, well he probably knew his subject better than any other professor knew his subject at Norwich. He was a mathematician. He knew, he had worked with Einstein during the Second World War on the Atomic Bomb as I understand it. Brilliant guy, but could not relate to students, and could not teach, and we all had a lot of 5 problem in his class. I won't mention his name, but we all had a lot of problem in his class and I did especially. So yeah that was my least favorite of all classes. JENNIFER PAYNE: What do you remember most about being a rook? WILLIAM STEELE: [Laughing] I guess, because I had not assumed great responsibility yet from my life there was a certain freedom that came from that. And there was a certain, ah, nice sense that came with the organization and the discipline and the regularity of Army life. It was very comforting. You knew where you were, you knew what your status was, you knew what to do, you know who to go at certain times, and that was pretty comforting most of the time. And then again because I hadn't grown up at the time, I didn't have the sense of responsibility that I probably should have had. So that was a pretty good year. I liked that. Also I made a lot of friends that year that have been friends ever since. JENNIFER PAYNE: But was there, was there, was the part that you didn't like, was it, was there anything you didn't like about being a rook or? WILLIAM STEELE: Yeah, you couldn't have a car. You were with, at that time our total enrollment was about 700. So you had 700 cadets isolated in a very small town with no car. So there wasn't, a social life was sort of possible if you had the money and could find the transportation. Other than that it was a little difficult. JENNIFER PAYNE: How were you disciplined, when you were, if you were ever disciplined? WILLIAM STEELE: [Laughing] Oh I certainly was. Can almost be an expert on that. I'm not sure about the way it's done now, but in those days 99% of the discipline was done by the Cadet Corps itself. It was done by Cadets. The faculty and the staff played almost no part in it whatsoever. The battalion and regimental disciplinary boards, which was the highest level of discipline, could exact any punishment up to and including suspension for three years. Now if your offence required expulsion, then the faculty came into it or the staff came into it and I think actually the president came into it for final approval. But other than that it was all students. But I have a story for an exception to that, which was made in my case [Laughing] when the faculty got involved in it. I don't know if you're familiar with the name of Maurice Smith? JENNIFER PAYNE: Yes WILLIAM STEELE: Maurice Smith, I think he died within the last couple of years. JENNIFER PAYNE: Maurice Smith? WILLIAM STEELE: Maurice Smith yeah. JENNIFER PAYNE: He's a 102. WILLIAM STEELE: He's a 100 and he's still alive then, ok. Let me tell you a story about Maurice Smith [laughter]. He was at that time a Lieutenant Colonel and an Assistant Commandant of Cadets. I had a cousin who was class of '33, valedictorian of '33, who was a very good close friend of Maurice Smith. And my cousin came to Norwich for a Middlebury game once. Well my cousin who was pretty wild, anyway, and he, when he came he stayed with 6 Maurice Smith. So before he left for the game, he and I were going to sit at the game together, before he left for the game he filled up his flask with Maurice Smith's scotch and brought it to the game and then insisted that we sit on the Middlebury side. Well I was in my Cadet uniform so that wasn't entirely proper but he was my much older cousin so I went with him and we sat on the Middlebury side. And of course all of the Norwich side was looking over across the field at us, and my cousin bought a blanket which he put in our laps presumably to keep warm. But about every 15 minutes would take the blanket and we'd throw it up over our heads and we'd pass that flask back and forth. And well of course Maurice Smith was looking across as the Assistant Commandant of Cadets, was looking across the field and he could see all of this and he knew that he had a Cadet illegally drinking his scotch. [Laughter] So now the next story I'm going to tell you, I have no proof that there is a connection, but I think that there was. A month or two later during winter carnival I was the Officer of the Day and I went ahead and did my duties and everything. About two days after that I received a letter from Maurice Smith with 7 first class charges on it, some of which had a grain of truth to them, some of which had no truth at all to them. But any one of which could have gotten me kicked out of Norwich or at least suspended. So I had to sit down as a 20 year old cadet and, and type out an official letter responding to all of these charges. Which I did, and several days went by, and finally -. In those days the mess hall was one big room with tables for 10 people and everyone was served the same food. And in the corner was what was called the crow's nest which was were the Cadet Commander and his Exec. Officer sat. And it was quite tall, there's stairs going up to it. So I was called up to the crow's nest and I was told by the Cadet Exec. Officer that Colonel Smith had referred the whole matter to them, for them to adjudicate. So the Exec. Officer said "we have decided that if you would agree, we will give you 12 demerits and the whole thing will go away." Well in those days you were allowed 12 demerits a month before you had to start walking tours, and seniors very rarely got demerits for anything. So I said "Ok I'll take the 12 demerits and we'll call it even." [Laughing] So that's the only time that I can really remember personally when anybody other than a member of the Cadet Corps got involved in disciplinary action and I think I know the reason why. [Laughter] JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow and that would be, the reason was because? WILLIAM STEELE: Because I was drinking his Scotch in front of him and he couldn't do anything about it [Laughing]. JENNIFER PAYNE: What was the hardest part of attending Norwich? WILLIAM STEELE: The hardest part? Well you know you're a kid when you're in college, and you don't have a great perspective about the outside world and what's going to happen. And I think one of the things I worried most about was how well I would be prepared to go out and do a job of electrical engineering. It turned out that was the least of my worries. Norwich prepared me very, very well. I've met people from lots bigger colleges and people with advanced degrees that I could compete with very easily. So Norwich did very well for me, but I did worry some about that when I was a cadet. And I think that and just passing all the courses was, and when I say passing all the courses, in engineering in those days, and it was changed thank god, in engineering in those days all you had to do was to pass every course. That's all. There was no 7 grade point average requirement. So if you got - you could conceivably graduate with a 1.0, having got a D in every course. Martin Webb, the aforementioned Colonel Webb, the year after I graduated he became the head of the department, and he changed that and he said he was going to change that. Because what was happening, it was very difficult to get a 1.0. I mean we flunked out. I think we had over 30 electrical engineers my freshmen year and we graduated 8 or 7 I think. So it was very difficult to get that 1.0 and, but when we got out nobody knew all about that. So our low grade point average was put up against people from other schools who had perhaps a 2.5 average, and it was very difficult when we got started. Well Colonel Webb changed that. He made a higher grade point average as being required and made it somewhat easier for it to get that higher grade point average. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow. What would say is the most important thing that Norwich taught you? WILLIAM STEELE: Discipline, organization, I think without question. And, and it stays with me today. It's something that has helped me all my life and it's just part of me now, so. JENNIFER PAYNE: What did, what did "I Will Try" mean to you as a student? WILLIAM STEELE: Nothing. It meant, well I shouldn't say nothing. As, I meant it has obvious connotations that you will try, you will exert an effort and all that. But aside from that it didn't mean a whole lot. Later on it meant something far more than that. It meant, whether or not it was a good motto or not and I never thought it was particularly imaginative, but it was historical. I think it was Truman Ransom that said that and it was picked up. But later on it became just about good or bad. It became about Norwich tradition and to me that became very important, still is very important. JENNIFER PAYNE: So how do you think, let's see, I want to talk about your professional life so tell me what happened after you left Norwich and how you got to be an engineer. WILLIAM STEELE: What happened was I had no job when I graduated from Norwich. My mother was living in New York City at the time so I went down to spend a couple weeks down there tramping up and down the streets of New York City finding if, I remember Aramco, Arabian American Oil Company was one company that I interviewed with. Didn't really know how to do an interview and it was a little difficult for engineers to get jobs. It was just one of those low points. But my father who was in the Army and stationed at White Sands Missile Range gave me a two week vacation as a graduation present, a two week vacation in New Mexico, in the great southwest. So I flew down there and stayed two weeks and I arrived there with 40 dollars and 40 pounds of luggage, 'cause 40 pounds of luggage was what those old propeller driven airplanes would take. And I stayed two weeks and I loved it. I loved the weather. I'd wake up early in the morning, it was, it's high altitude down there, 3/4000 feet, and the weather is perfect day after day after day. And I decided I wanted to stay so I cashed in my return trip plane ticket and got another 40 dollars for that and that lasted me another couple weeks, and then I had to get a job. So I got a job there with civil service at White Sands Missile Range. That was pretty much what my career was from then on. 8 JENNIFER PAYNE: What did you do, what did you do for White Sands Missile Range? WILLIAM STEELE: Well I started out in the television division which was doing special television set ups, for instance - of course a missile range, like any test range, tests Army materials, Army systems. And some systems when you test them you have to surveill them with television, and so we designed that kind of system. For instance there was a hot/cold chamber that we would put the material into. We had to design a television system that would withstand the heat and the cold so we could put it in there and take a look at that material from the outside while it was being tested. There's another one, a centrifuge, which was a big spinning thing, and we mounted a camera on the very center of that pointing straight out the arm toward the material being tested. So you could view that as it went around. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow. WILLIAM STEELE: So then another job that I had was, we were doing a drone test out at Yuma Proving Ground, which was several hundred miles away over in Arizona. And I was sent over there in order to put in a television system that would provide surveillance of the drones when they were on the launch pad and as they launched. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow, very interesting. WILLIAM STEELE: It was that kind of thing. Then after that I went into meteorology. JENNIFER PAYNE: Really? WILLIAM STEELE: Yeah, we had a big meteorological group and engineering division that would build data collection systems for the meteorologists. So I did that for several years and after that I went to work for Astrodata Corporation, one private industry which built timing systems. And then they went bankrupt so I was out of work and after that I ended up, in 1972, I ended up in Yuma Proving Ground. And at Yuma Proving Ground I got some really, I got two wonderful opportunities there. And the first one was - laser technology had begun essentially in 1960, that's the first time they got laser action and some actual light out of a laser rod. So this was then 12 years later when I went to Yuma Proving Ground, and they were about to be sent a laser radar to be evaluated. And so I got there at the right time and I was assigned that job. And it was the first general purpose laser tracking system in the Department of Defense. So I got a chance to do the evaluation of that, to buy some more. It turned out to be terribly successful. Then in 1973 I think it was, I was sitting talking to my boss, and an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel appeared at the door. And he said "My name is Val Denninger and I'm looking for a place to test a new navigation system." Well we had never tested a navigation system before, but laser tracking systems were ideal for doing that because what would happen - you'd put the navigation system on board an aircraft to tell you where the navigation system said the aircraft was, and then you would track the aircraft with laser trackers which would tell you where it really was. So my boss was a smart guy and so he asked a couple of questions on how does it work and so on and so forth. And we didn't know whether that - this guy had a great line, and we didn't know how much of his line was a little hokey and how much was real. So my boss asked him, he said, "At what level are, is that project being funded every year?" And Val told us, 9 I've forgotten the number but it was huge. 100 million or something like that which in 1972 was a lot of money. And we said, my boss said "First of all come in and sit down and close the door." Because every test range is looking for a lot of test work to do, it's our living. And the next question he asked was "And what do you call this system?" And Val said, "We call it the global positioning system, the GPS." And at that point we really got interested and it turns out that the dollar value that Val had given us included putting up all those satellites. That's what made it so big. So at that point we decided we really wanted that system. And we were a little tiny range, Yuma Proving Ground is not a large range at all, and we were in competition with White Sands Missile Range, which was huge, and Edwards Air Force base. So we decided we were the only ones that had operating lasers at that point, or had one operating laser at that point. So we sat down, they had the money, we had the will, and they fed us a lot of money for software development to buy more laser trackers and everything else and we just turned our work force into preparing to test the GPS. And sometime along, I've forgotten when maybe 1974, we were officially selected as the primary test range for the GPS and I was assigned as the range product engineer for that. And my job was then to coordinate all of the facilities for Yuma Proving Ground for testing this new thing, and so that was a great challenge. I'm probably the only person you'll ever meet that can tell you exactly how the GPS works and how it determines your location. It's a mathematical process. So I got to do that for I think, we flew the first test flight of a C-130 aircraft in 1976, and after that we were still testing the global positioning system up until I left Yuma Proving Ground in 1985. So that was an absolutely wonderful opportunity to get involved in something that turned out to be very big. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow that's amazing. That's, you mentioned the 4 generals that were in your class. WILLIAM STEELE: Yes JENNIFER PAYNE: And it's just amazing how your class and your colleagues have just been involved in such incredible projects. GPS is so big. WILLIAM STEELE: Yes, yes. And the 4 generals, the 4 general officers and our class was I think 153, and the 4 general officers, first of all lightning. As far as I know we had only had one 4 star general before our class and that was I.D. White in the class of 1922, interestingly enough a classmate of my father's when he went to Norwich. And I think Sully Sullivan was the second 4 star we got, and lightning really struck because he was made Chief of Staff of the Army, I think 1990 to 1994. Then about the same time Bill Streeter became the Commander of the Military District of Washington, which included Arlington Cemetery and Fort Myer down there, some other things. We had Don Edwards who was, for about 16 years I think, the Adjutant General of the State of Vermont. And then we had Dick Durgens who was a Brigadier General. So we had 4 general officers out of the class and as well as Pier Mapes who was president of NBC television for affiliates. JENNIFER PAYNE: Amazing. Who were your family members? What are their names of your family members that were here? I would like to get them on the record. 10 WILLIAM STEELE: Oh ok. My grandfather was the first one that went here. He went here for only a year and he took pre-, he took law here. And he was then the class of 1882 I think. JENNIFER PAYNE: He's that Fredrick Steele? WILLIAM STEELE: Yes JENNIFER PAYNE: Ok WILLIAM STEELE: Yeah, he was class of 1882. He went here for one year and then came under the influence of Dr. Mayo downtown in Northfield. And Dr. Mayo was a homeopathic physician and my grandfather then decided he would be a homeopathic physician. So he went to Hahnemann Medical School in Chicago for two terms. Came back, studied under Dr. Mayo for a while, and then moved down to Gaysville which is in the township of Stockbridge Vermont and practiced there from 1883 to 1903. And then he moved to Montpelier and, to ease up his workload. But I don't think it eased up his workload a whole lot. When he was in Gaysville he was always looking at the south end of a horse going north you know, because he was going around to Bethel and to Springfield and all those towns around there in a buggy, and he wanted to ease that up a little bit. So he moved to Montpelier, moved to 152 Main Street. Now when he was in Stockbridge he was the State Representative from Stockbridge to the State House of Representatives. And then he was elected as the senator from Windsor County, and did most of his work in the Vermont state legislature on medical things. Then when he moved to Montpelier of course he was in Washington County. He was then elected to the Vermont senate from Washington County, senator from Washington County. And in those days they had three kinds of medicine and one was allopathic, which is what we would call today regular medicine. And then there was homeopathic medicine, which today has sort of degenerated into wheat germ and that kind of thing, but in those days they did everything. They delivered babies mostly, and they set limbs. It was before abdominal surgery so there wasn't any of that, but surgery on the limbs and everything they did, and everything else. And then there was eclectic medicine, and eclectic medicine was based on Native American medicine. And those three were the three that were recognized in the state of Vermont. Well at that time I think my grandfather had come to the conclusion that allopathic medicine was the way to go, and of course he was right in retrospect. And so he joined the Allopathic Medical Society and participated in that and when he was in the legislator he came to the conclusion that you ought not to have three kinds of medicine, you ought to have one kind of medicine. So he sponsored legislation that passed easily, probably based on some other states' legislation. I don't know that I'm guessing. But what it did was set up a board of two allopaths, two homeopaths, and one eclectic medicine practitioner to set up one set of standards for practicing medicine. And that passed easily in both houses, was signed into law by the government, by the governor, and became the basis for what is now state boards for medicine in Vermont. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow. WILLIAM STEELE: And that was my grandfather. Wonderful guy, my hero because in his will he left me enough money to go to college for four years [laughter] which solved that problem in those days. The second one to go here was my uncle, whose name also Fred Elton Steele, he was 11 Fred Elton Jr. And he went here I think for three years and then transferred down to a medical school in Baltimore and finished up his medicine there. I think he graduated sometime around 1903 or 1904. And both of those guys - of course medicine was a little bit simpler then - both of them were M.D.s, they were both surgeons, and they were both psychiatrists. In fact my grandfather was the first psychiatrist in Vermont and used to make trips down to Brattleboro to the retreat down there to treat the patients down there. And in those days they had no standards for psychiatry or anything else. He showed an interest, was willing to take the time, so he became a psychiatrist. My uncle had psychiatric training and he became a psychiatrist. Worked with the Veterans Administration for years, ending up down in Northampton, Mass. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow. WILLIAM STEELE: Then the third one that went here was my uncle Edwin Harrington Steele. And he got his education he started out as an electrical engineer I found out years later, and then got interrupted because we had the First World War and he was pulled out or joined and went over to France as a corporal and fought in the First World War. And then when he came back he entered Tufts and became a dentist. And when he became a dentist he married a fellow dentist and they moved to Waterbury, Vermont and practiced from probably 1924 or so until his death in 1977 I think. Had a practice in Waterbury, yeah. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow, that's a long career. WILLIAM STEELE: [My father, Warren Brooks Steele, was the fourth member of the family to go to Norwich entering in the Class of '22. The reason for his departure three years later is a little mysterious. He was not suited to the academic life and that probably had something to do with his departure. His claim was always that it had something to do with the Mount Home Cemetery next to Norwich. According to his story, he snuck out one night and rearranged the letters on the cemetery sign to read "Hope On Me" Cemetery and was expelled. No matter which story is true, he worked at several odd jobs but joined the National Guard where he received his commission when 21 through correspondence courses. He was called to active duty as a major in 1940 to be the Executive Officer of Selective Service in Vermont. In 1943 he was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel and sent to the China/Burma/India theater and then at the end of the war he took command of the Tokyo Ordnance Depot in japan where his family joined him. In 1953 and now a Colonel he was riffed as part of a plan to reduce the number of reserve officers who had left their civilian jobs to be in the Army. He reverted to Master Sergeant until 1960 when he retired as Colonel.]2 WILLIAM STEELE: Yeah. And then the [fifth] one that went to Norwich was Fred Elton Steele III, and he was very active with Norwich until he died. He was in his 90s when he died. And he was valedictorian of the class of '33 and became, went into the Army around the Second World War. Then he went teaching, he went to teach at the Merchant Marine Academy at King's point on Long Island and got some sort of a Naval commission down there. Taught down there for a long time and eventually moved back up to Montpelier at 40 Liberty Street and taught up at Vermont College until his retirement. And then there was me. And that was, that was, there was 2 Added at the request of William W. Steele '59.12 one other thing that I found out - in my class of 1959 was an Ed Steele from Waterbury. And we knew each other of course, we knew each other's name was Steele, and that was about it. He was a business major and a good athlete, basketball player, and we graduated and run off. And I don't know, it's probably about 10 years ago I got a call and "Is this Bill Steele?" I said "Yeah." "This is Karen Steele." I said "Yeah." [laughter] And she said, "From Waterbury." I said, "You must be a relative of Ed's." And she said, "Yes I'm his wife." And I says "good" and she said, "I'm calling because I'm doing genealogical research." And I said "Are you going to tell me that Ed and I are related." And she said, "yeah you're third cousins." So whenever I'm in Vermont I usually stay with Ed and Karen for, for three days or so and we do genealogical research, so. JENNIFER PAYNE: That's wonderful. Um. What advice would you give a Rook today about how to survive and thrive? WILLIAM STEELE: How to survive? [Laughing] JENNIFER PAYNE: Yeah. WILLIAM STEELE: How to survive at Norwich? JENNIFER PAYNE: And survive, yeah, survive at Norwich. WILLIAM STEELE: At Norwich? JENNIFER PAYNE: Or in the world, either. WILLIAM STEELE: If I had it to do over again, I would be, I would take the military aspect of Norwich very seriously. I would do my very best at developing myself as a leader, because Norwich offers you a magnificent opportunity to do that. I would advise anyone to enjoy Norwich but don't forget why you're here, to study hard because your grade school and high school academic record tend to get lost, but your college record doesn't. it follows you all the rest of your life and I would advise people to study very hard and to take full advantage of the leadership opportunities that Norwich offers. I didn't do any of that, but that's what I would advise. [Laughing] JENNIFER PAYNE: So what does "I Will Try" mean to you now? WILLIAM STEELE: Mainly to me it means tradition. It means Norwich tradition and I think Norwich traditions are terribly important, ought to be paid attention to. A lot of them have gone by the wayside and I'm sorry to see that. After we left, I don't know I think it might have been sometime in the 1980s, "I Will Try" was changed I think to "Essayons" and then changed back to "I Will Try." I don't think that should have ever been changed. I never liked "I Will Try" as a particularly good motto but it's tradition, it's been around since a, for a long time. Also something that was changed was our sports teams were always known as the Horsemen. It was the Norwich Horsemen and we had banners with a Cadet on a jumping horse and that kind of thing. That was changed to the Cadets. Norwich is not West Point, it's not supposed to be West Point, it wasn't founded as a West Point. It was founded for citizen soldiery, not professional soldiery, and I think that that Horsemen should have been kept. And if anybody, if anybody questioned that in this day, when women have been admitted to Norwich - something I was fully 13 in favor of and so was everyone else, well I'll deal with that in just a second - but if anyone were to complain well the Horsemen is gender specific, I'd just say the term Horsemen, if you look in the dictionary it's not gender specific, it can apply to women just like chairmen can. And I think it should have been kept and I would very much like to see it changed back. Now a word on, on women being admitted to Norwich. From my perspective Norwich has always followed the Army, it prepares people for the Army. And when the Army changed from brown shoe to black shoe, Norwich changed from brown shoe to black shoe. When the uniform changed, Norwich in my day used the regular Army uniform just with Norwich insignia, which was a great advantage because when the seniors graduated they would take off their class strip and the Norwich brass and they would have their first uniform, which was a great advantage for a poor second lieutenant coming out of Norwich. And I was sorry to see them change that also. When the regular Army changed their phonetic alphabet. See I was in Easy Company, which the next year became Echo Company. From the old, it changed from the old Abel, Baker, to Alpha, Bravo phonetic alphabet. Norwich changed and when the Army changed and admitted women it was within the Norwich tradition and practice to follow what the Army did. If you're going into an Army with women and you're going to have to deal with whatever problems and opportunities come along with that, you'd better be trained for it and Norwich does that. And I have always been so proud of Norwich, and I brag about Norwich all the time, because places like West Point and VMI and the Citadel all have had big problems and resistance to admitting women. And at Norwich it just happened without any ripple, it was accepted, we went on from there. And I thought that that had to do a lot with the fact that the command structure at Norwich was seamless. It was seamless from the president of Norwich down to the Cadet Corporal. We were all part of the same disciplinary administrative function. There wasn't any big dividing line between the student body and the responsibilities of the faculties and staff. So when the president said we will have women at Norwich, everybody saluted the flagpole and said "yes sir" and we had women at Norwich. JENNIFER PAYNE: Is there anything else you would like to add? Anything else you'd like to say? WILLIAM STEELE: Just that, that when I graduated from high school I had very little experience or knowledge of the opportunities of various colleges and all that. And I ended up at Norwich as much from family tradition as anything else. If I had it to do all over again I would still go to Norwich, and I would go to Norwich for the discipline, and the order, and all that kind of thing that it taught. Because I have never seen any other school that taught it like Norwich did, and taught the assumption of responsibility at such an early age. Because, as I mentioned before, Cadets exercise all the discipline in the Corps of Cadets or virtually all of it and I haven't seen any other school that did that, and that taught you at a very early age. In fact I was talking with one of our ex Cadet Colonels and he said you know there are a lot of Cadet Colonels that never have had as much responsibility, real responsibility, again in their career as they did that senior year as the Commander of Cadets. JENNIFER PAYNE: Really? 14 WILLIAM STEELE: So, yeah that what I think was really great about Norwich and why I would go back. JENNIFER PAYNE: That's wonderful. Thank you so much. WILLIAM STEELE: Well thank you for having me. It's been fun. JENNIFER PAYNE: I really enjoyed this. I'm going to hit the stop button. [She turns the microphone back on] JENNIFER PAYNE: There we go, you're on, ok. So tell me about General Sully. WILLIAM STEELE: Sully? Sully at that age was a very interesting guy because he didn't seem to have a whole lot of direction. He was a member I think of Sig Ep fraternity and a lot of his social life and everything was based around Sig Ep. He was not particularly good academically as I remember it, and, surprisingly enough, he was a Rook for his first year as we all were and a buck private for the next three years. He never made corporal, never made sergeant, never made officer. And, again didn't seem to have a whole lot of direction. He, his plans were, as I remember it, and I think the year book says that his plans were to go into business when he got out of Norwich. And instead of course he went on to be Chief of Staff. So, but one thing I found that was very interesting, we would be sitting around deciding what to do at say on Saturday afternoon we'd decide what to do on a Saturday night. And we'd say, well should we go to a movie, should we go down to Burlington to UVM to the basketball game or something, and we'd discuss it and Sully wouldn't say anything. And we finally say ok let's go to the basketball game down in Burlington. And then everyone would turn around and say "What do you think Sully? is that ok?" [Laughing] So, although he never adopted leadership role in the Corps of Cadets he had an enormous amount of charisma and leadership just built into him which I always thought made him Chief of Staff of the Army. And then when he was Chief of Staff he came to El Paso, to Fort Bliss, and gave a speech there and I was in the audience and what he told, he was speaking to people that might be the parents of people entering the Army, and he said "Don't worry if your kid is not a born leader. Give him to us in the Army and we will teach him leadership." And I thought that I've never been able to relegate two things, that this guy who was probably the most natural born leader I ever met in my life, would say "It's not necessary to have any of that, we'll just teach it to you." JENNIFER PAYNE: Huh. WILLIAM STEELE: So, yeah, Sully worked in the mess hall and in those days we would march down to the mess hall in formation, go in, there were table for ten people a piece all through the mess hall and we would be assigned a table and we would sit there. Senior Cadet, Cadet with the most rank at the table would be the table Commandant. All of the, or the Cadet Commander and his Exec. sat in a very elevated platform with stairs going up to it called the crow's nest in one corner of the mess hall. And typically what would happen is that announcements would be made when everyone was there, corps would be called to attention, announcements would be made, and then grace would be said. And then as soon as grace was said the doors from the kitchen would open and the waiters would come out with these carts with terrines on them and you 15 might, you'd have a terrine of mashed potatoes for instance and a terrine of corn and maybe a platter of breaded veal or something. One for each table and they would be but on the table, and the table Commandant would take his share and pass it on down. And one of the great things about Norwich was it was the table Commandant's job to make sure that the rook at the end of the table got as much food as all of the people proceeding him. So it was very, very good training for officers that whose primary responsibilities was to take care of the men, and that meant the privates as well as the subordinate officers. And Sully was one of those waiters. And as I remember it he was a waiter for four years. He was well known as the waiter, and the waiters did not go to formation, they left their last class and went right to the mess hall to get ready. And then they left the mess hall and went to their next class in the afternoon. And I think as I remember it for that they got free meals, they didn't have to pay the board part. So that's what I remember about Sully mostly. He roomed in Goodyear Hall on the third floor I think his senior year. I was, about the only time I ran into him was then because I was on the first floor of Goodyear. I was in the MP's for three years at Norwich and that's where, that's why I would run into him most of the time. And the other guy that I remember of course was Pier Mapes and Pier became - NBC Television had I think 11 presidents. Tt was under GE and they would have a president, they had a president for programming and they had a president for finance and a president. Pier Mapes became the president for affiliates. And I know the last time I saw him he said "Bill you're from El Paso." I said "Yes." He says "KTSM right?" I said "Yeah that's the NBC affiliate." So he knew all of those, but in college Pier was a tall gangly guy. Not athletic, not coordinated enough to be athletic, but the friendliest and nicest and least affected person that I ever met. Really good guy. He was in our company which was Easy Company our freshmen year and that's where I got to know him best, and then we both belonged to the Episcopal Church and did a lot of that work together in school. But Pier was a cheerleader, and Pier came from a family of money I think, in fact I know he did. And when he was a cheerleader he showed up dressed as a cheerleader out of the 1920s. He had a real raccoon skin coat and a megaphone and he would lead cheers doing that and I can remember when we were freshmen, we're sitting down talking in the evening ya know and Pier said "You know to be successful in business you don't have to be smart, and you don't even have to work real hard." He says, "but you have to make sure that you don't make any enemies, that you get along with everyone." And that's sort of what Pier did and later on, I mean 45 years later on, not too long ago, I had an occasion to call Pier to ask him about something. I've forgotten what it was and I said, "Pier do you remember what you told me when we were freshmen, 18 years old in college?" He said "no" and I told him you don't have to be smart to get along in business, you don't have to work real hard but you have to get along with everybody. He says "No I don't remember that," he says, "but ya know he said I was pretty smart as a kid wasn't I?" I said "Yeah I found out later on you were." So yeah that was what I remember best about Pier. Pier, I googled Pier and I found out I think his father's name was Pier Mapes also and his father was also a big executive with NBC and I believe when NBC got the contract to broadcast the Miss America contest his father had something to do, was in charge of that. And he decided that the Miss America contest ought to have a theme song. And so he went out and he contracted out 16 to have someone write a theme song for Miss America and that's where the "There she goes Miss America" came from. I think that was Pier's father that did that. JENNIFER PAYNE: Oh my gosh. Wow. WILLIAM STEELE: Good guy. I saw him at the 50th reunion 4 years ago. Still the same guy, still totally unaffected, one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Smart guy too. JENNIFER PAYNE: I have to ask you 'cause you mentioned it a couple times, the food. How was the food, how was the chow when you were here? WILLIAM STEELE: Well [laughing] I thought it was good. Of course food when you are told what to eat, you're going to get lots of complaints, so of course there were lots of complaints. But by and large I thought it was very good. Standard meals, scrambled eggs and cream chip beef on toast and, and uh for breakfast. Yeah I thought it was very good and with the regulation that went on at the tables everybody got enough to eat. We didn't have it like it is now where you go in and select what you want and eat pizza three times a day if you want it. We were fed good balanced meals and so that along with. But one thing we did not have then that they have now, Norwich has improved greatly by the way since then. We did not have a whole lot of exercise. When you were a freshmen you were given calisthenics I think one day a week, something like that, not very much and that was about it. And there were no, there was no equipment. There was no weight room or any of that. No swimming pool. So when we had a chubby little fellow come in to the Corps of Cadets, four years later he would graduate as a chubby little fellow. We didn't have nearly the emphasis on health and fitness that they do now because the Army didn't. The Army did not have that. I was in Japan right after the Second World War - 1946, 1947 - and living on an Army post and a lot of those soldiers were grossly out of shape. Not in good shape at all and when the Korean war happened, 1950 I think it was, those were the troops they sent over to fight. And those troops were not in condition to fight and that's why they got slaughtered. And I think now the Army is emphasizing fitness a great deal more and so is Norwich and that's a great advantage. We had no fitness room, we had no swimming pool. You could go down and run around the track if you wanted to and that was about it. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow. WILLIAM STEELE: Yeah. Other advantages that they have now - we had no laundry then at Norwich. To get your laundry done you can have it done one of two ways: in the basement of Harmon Hall they had a laundry counter. You would take your laundry down give it to them, they would ship it downtown and your laundry would be done downtown and then shipped back and you would pick it up in Harmon Hall. The other way you could do it, they had a standard tin box with straps around it and you could put your dirty laundry in there and send it home and have mom do it and send it back. And a lot of people did that. JENNIFER PAYNE: Really? 17 WILLIAM STEELE: And when I got out of Norwich I sent a letter back and said you know you've really got to get laundry facilities there. And so I got sort of a letter that was designed to put me off and but I noticed a few years later they had installed laundry facilities here. The other thing we didn't have was multiple ROTC types. We had Army ROTC. JENNIFER PAYNE: That was it. WILLIAM STEELE: That was it. And our Cadets, we had one or two that took their commissions in another service, I'm not sure how that worked. But they didn't have Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, they didn't have any of that. It was just plan Army ROTC. We did have one thing that I think they've done away with. If you were a very good military person, got good marks, good recommendations and everything you would become a DMS which was a Distinguished Military Student. If you were a DMS in ROTC you could take a regular Army commission. You wouldn't be reserve it would be regular Army, and I think they've done away with that. I think the regular Army is strictly West Point graduates now, that's my understanding. JENNIFER PAYNE: You grew up a little while in Japan. Was your dad in the Military? WILLIAM STEELE: Yeah he was in the Military, shipped over to command Tokyo Ordinance Depot right after the war. We went over in November of 1946 which is about less than a year and a half after the war, everybody had 15 months after the war ended and we were some of the first dependents over there. JENNIFER PAYNE: Really? WILLIAM STEELE: Which meant well there was a school, so when I went to school I went to school with English kids and Australian kids and all that. I skipped school a lot and [laughing] because I found a way to get around it. But, that was it. I spent most of my time, my entertainment, I was 9 years old when I went over and 10 when I came back, but most of my time was spent in what was the Red Cross Club, became the Service Club, which was for enlisted. And they had pool tables and ping pong tables and things like that and free coffee all the time. So that's where I spent all my time. We would go to the post, my father would go to his office and I would go to the club, and maybe meet for lunch, and then I'd go back to the club and spend all my time there. Learned how to drink coffee there at nine years old [laughing]. And later on, things were pretty wild then and my parents, my father was a Lieutenant Colonel then and he and my mother went for a vacation to, with a stop at Hong Kong, and to the Philippines. But the three of us stayed there right outside of Tokyo, and a Captain and his wife came and lived in the house and sort of babysat for us. Which was pretty wild because they, let's see we drank beer, I was 9 years old, we drank beer. I learned how to drink beer, my sisters had mixed drinks, they were 11 and 13. They were older so they had mixed drinks. I had beer. We smoked, I learned how to play poker, and was not a bad poker player when I was 9/10 years old. So it was pretty wild bringing up and most of my friends were Japanese. I spoke no Japanese. They spoke no English. Didn't make any difference we still played together and all that. The house we lived in was beautiful. It was a college president's house. The living conditions were incredible because the occupational Army took over things like that. So we had a two story stone house, and this is for a Lieutenant Colonel, with manicured lawns and manicured everything outside. 18 JENNIFER PAYNE: Nice. WILLIAM STEELE: That's where we lived. We had, for a family of five we had 7 servants. We had Mama San who was the chief maid and then she had her 13 year old daughter who was my buddy then, and she lived there also. Then there were 3 maids. And I'm not sure there's an upstairs maid and a downstairs maid and maybe a kitchen maid or something. There were three maids, and then there was the boiler man who was sort of the handyman and he took care of the boiler that heated the house and took care of everything else around. And then the last one was the cook. Always had trouble with the cook because the cook, we had two or three cooks and they all had short tempers and threw pots and pans around and all that. But, so we had 7 servants for a family of 5 over there. JENNIFER PAYNE: Oh my gosh. WILLIAM STEELE: It was pretty, pretty interesting. The biggest event I can remember there was my father and the whole family being invited to the Chinese Embassy for a big party and [laughing] I think I was 10 by this time, by the time this happened. So I went and the Japanese serving girls didn't know any different, they were taught to do certain things and that's what they did. And I was on my third martini by the time my mother figured out what I was doing. So after a couple martinis I had to dress like an adult and I saw this beautiful Chinese girl in a red gown and I decided that I wanted to dance with her so I went over asked her to dance. And she indulged me, we danced as best as I could. It was fun. Yeah I remember that evening very well. But there were no rules, an occupational Army doesn't worry about too many rules and too many standards. It was a pretty wild year. Then I came back to the United States in the 5th grade and all of a sudden it was culture shock all over again [laughing] and I couldn't do all the stuff. I really had to study, make up for a misspent year in Japan having played hooky from school at least half the time. JENNIFER PAYNE: Did you play poker at Norwich? WILLIAM STEELE: No, No I never played poker after Japan to speak of. I played pretty good poke, but it was everybody played poker which meant that you didn't have to be that good at it. But when I came back then the poker games were sort of dominated by people who were really good at it and you didn't, either you should get really good at it or you should stay away from it. And I found that out I think one lesson and that was it for poker, so. JENNIFER PAYNE: Sounds like it was a very interesting year. WILLIAM STEELE: Yes it was a very interesting year. Yeah it taught me that if you're going to be in a war, you'd better win because you're a lot better off if you win then you are if you lose. And the Japanese, one of the reasons we had so many servants is because the Japanese economy was destroyed. A great deal of Tokyo was destroyed. You know we fire bombed them with the Doolittle Raid. [Coughs] Excuse me. And so one of the things the American occupation was doing was hiring as many Japanese as possible so they would not starve to death. I can remember, I'm one of the few people I know who actually saw Douglas McArthur. Because if you think of that you know a lot of people have seen Eisenhower and the other Generals from the 19 Second World War, but McArthur was sort of scarce. And the reason he was is because during a great deal of his career he was in the Philippines sort of remote, and then after the Second World War, and then of course Second World War he was in the South Pacific. After the Second World War he moved, his office was in the Dai-Ichi building in the middle of downtown Tokyo. So he was out of the country most of the time, that's why nobody had seen him. But I can remember seeing him once and all the stories about him were true. He was the most dramatic actor that you ever saw in your life. And we were traveling along, we'd gone to downtown Tokyo to do some shopping. And of course we were using an Army Jeep and I was the 9 year kid so my mother sat in the front seat beside the driver, my two sisters sat in the two rear seats, and then I sat on the ground or on the floor with my feet down by the gear shift and my back up against the back seat. And all of a sudden we got stopped, and the reason we got stopped is that when Douglas McArthur came to work in the morning everything stopped. The traffic was stopped. And so I sort of heisted myself up so I could see out the front window and here came a line of what must have been, oh probably six motorcycles with lights flashing, and then at least two cars, and then motorcycle escort in back. And this was McArthur arriving for work at the Dai-Ichi building. And his car stopped, they let him out, of course still with all the flashing lights around. They had a line of MPs on either side of the sidewalk going up to the Dai-Ichi building, and crowds of Japanese, I mean must have been 20 or 30 deep, just wanting to get a glimpse of McArthur. And so he got out and he had the, the crushed hat with the 50 mission crush on it that he always wore, all he did he took the grommet out of it so the sides sort of drooped down, and the corn cob pipe and he was a tall, tall guy anyway. And no mistaking who it was and he stood up in between that line of MP's into the Dai-Ichi building and of course the MP's dispersed and the escort dispersed and we were allowed on. But it was quite a dramatic scene and my understanding was that scene went on every single morning he went to work [laughing] and whereever he went. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow. WILLIAM STEELE: He was quite something. I don't think he did a, frankly a good job of commanding because he was in charge of all of those troops in Japan and let them get totally out of shape because nobody expected another war to come along. And I think now that we've learned our lesson and I think that the Army will not make that mistake again, but they certainly did then. There's no question who was in command of Japan. McArthur was in command. Everyone knew it, he made sure that everyone knew it [laughing]. JENNIFER PAYNE: Wow that a good story.Yeah. Wow, anything else? WILLIAM STEELE: No I think that's it this time. JENNIFER PAYNE: Ok, alright no that's good, that's really good.

Willie F. Moore, July 17, 2013 ; Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. ; The following is an oral history interview with Willie Moore. The interview was conducted at his barber shop on 25th Street on July 17, 2013, by Woodrow Johnson. Willie discusses his experiences with 25th Street.; The following is an oral history interview with Willie Moore. The interview was conducted at his barber shop on 25th Street on December 13, 2013, by Sarah Langsdon. Willie discusses his experiences with 25th Street. ; 40p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 videodisc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Willie F. Moore Interviewed by Woodrow Johnson 17 July 2013 and Sarah Langsdon 12 December 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Willie F. Moore Interviewed by Woodrow Johnson 17 July 2013 and Sarah Langsdon 12 December 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Moore, Willie, an oral history by Woodrow Johnson, 17 July 2013 and Sarah Langsdon 12 December 2013, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Willie F. Moore July 17, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Willie Moore. The interview was conducted at his barber shop on 25th Street on July 17, 2013, by Woodrow Johnson. Willie discusses his experiences with 25th Street. WJ: Alright I'm Woodrow Johnson here with Willie Moore. Here with me is also Lorrie Rands; we will be interviewing Willie Moore at his barber shop here on 25th in Ogden. Today is July 17, 2013. Alright Willie so the first question I have for you. I want you to just kind of sum up how you got to be here. So tell us a little bit about where you are from and the life events that brought you to Utah. Not necessarily to Ogden, but to Utah. WM: Oh lordy. WJ: Loaded question—let's go with where you are from. WM: Grablet, that's a state where the famous Eddy Robinson is a coach. I stayed there two months and then I got looking for a job. I couldn't find a job there and I didn't like there, I wanted to come back to Utah. I always liked Utah. I came to Utah with some people who adopted me because my parents separated when I was young. Then I stayed in and out of the Hotel Utah all the time. Then when I grew up just a little bit, I started living in the Hotel Utah, not with the people who brought me here. I started to live with them and then after staying with them a long time working at the Hotel Utah. I was a bus boy and then I was a waiter. I decided that wasn't the thing because I was making 27 cents an hour and I knew I couldn't do with that. I heard a job out in Washington state, the name of the job was Hantred, Utah. 1 That's where they put all of the atomic bombs or something out there you know. That's in Yacamo and Pasco, that's where it was. I worked there a long time then I came back to Utah and I worked a while in Utah until I finished school, barber school. After I finished barber school this is where the droves started coming through Utah. Then they need some help that night, I decided I'd help them get their things together to play basketball. The person who I took place was Dougie Moore. He was off that night with a girl and I took his place. That's how I got to be this with the globetrotters a little while. With this Dougie Moore thing see. Then after that it started growing kind of bigger, little bigger all the time you know. Then I decided that that wasn't the thing to do because I didn't want to be a clown all my life. I wanted to do something else. So Mrs. Bamberger was there and she said well I'll tell you what I do. I'll set you up in business if you promise me you'll finish and you'll have your own business. This was on Regan Street, the barber college was on Regan Street. So I went there for until I finished. Then I started the barber business and I've been in the barber business ever since. Then we come to Ogden and up in this hotel here where we are now they killed a guy. A navy person and it frightened me so I went back to Salt Lake and when I went back to Salt Lake I met Doc White. That's the guy the policeman killed, I met him getting off the train. I helped him take his clothes to a place called, I forget the name of the place. He moved in there. He says, "Willie I want to be a policeman." I said, "You do?" He said, "Yes." 2 So he went to Salt Lake City to get to be a policeman and they told him they didn't hire blacks. It wasn't blacks then it was color. They didn't have colors so they said go to Ogden they hire anybody or anything. So he came to Ogden and when he got to Ogden then he worked a little while. He was a foot doctor and he worked just a little while for the health department and they start to decide they wanted to put him on the police department. Then when he got on the police department wandering the streets here comes the porters and waiters that people always wondered about. Porters and Waiters wasn't about no woman at all. It was about Billie Weekly and the porters and waiters. After so long a time it turned from the porters to waiters to a business that Annabelle was supposed to have run. He gave her a chance to run it. Then when the porters and waiters got to be as said, the porters and waiters, they was sit there to stay. When the lot of people there wasn't a lot of them there-but it was a lot of single men because of Hill Field and all these other navy bases and all that stuff and then the Rose Room. Have you heard of Rose Room? That's right on the corner over there, the Rose Room. Because the men didn't bring their wives with them then that was a good place for them, over there. Then that wasn't the only place it was. Rose was a lady and she was so smart she made it a business. The business was that she would open up at 8:00 and she closed at 5:00. When she closed there was no women or men doing nothing with nobody. Then she'd open them up the next morning, that's the way she ran the business. She had a Cadillac, a pink Cadillac, I'm sure it was a Cadillac. It was a convertible and she rode all up and 3 down this street here with dark shades on, a hat on and the women didn't like her too much because she wasn't working. You know making money off those women you know. First they kind of wandered about them over there, this porters and waiters, still the porters and waiters wandered about them. Who are they? Then they checked them out and find out that they weren't white. They were French and Creole from Louisiana. When they come here they named the Rose Room because that was her name. His name was Davies, Bill Davies. As I said the porters and waiters didn't bother all these women that would come down dance and all that stuff like that. It wasn't a whore house, no no it wasn't a whore house. Most people think that, but it wasn't a whore. Now I told you how this Billy Weekly would sit at this door and when people would go into this place then he'd let them in and out. Finally they got rid of the key because, see Billie Weekly was my friend. When I owned the barber shop at the LaFrance Hotel you see that was part of the porters and waiters. A sister in law and brother in law part of the hotel. They went from there to cooking the best food. Then there was a Spanish fellow that was friends of Annabelle Weekly, that was her name. He helped them cook the Mexican food in this place. They would dance in this place and had some pretty good sized people at the porters and waiters. Course I remember seeing two guys, they used to have little old TVs and radios and things. I seen them fighting with each other, throwing those things at each other. They were mad, but after that sisters and brothers and cousins and all that stuff they was going to 4 Salt Lake City and they got killed, but Annabelle didn't get killed. Another lady got killed and there was a time when they had this street was okay. They had the lyceum theatre right up the street, they had Keely's on Washington. These were the places you got the best food. When I came here in this place here to eat you could get a T-bone steak, eggs, and potatoes and what not and a drink for $1.79. That's what and haircuts were 35 cents then. Person who was an apprentice was 15 cents. This place, I was so lucky to get this place. I think prayer helped a little bit and the experience I had with the people over there. I decided when I was young I would never drink, smoke, or have coffee because I thought that was a waste. I don't know if you should name people but the head of the church said the best thing you can do is to put good things in your body and good things will come out. But if you don't do that you're going to have some problems. So I decided to do that and haven't done nothing yet. Somehow I used to like the smell of new cigars and I used to have a smell new drinks but I never did. When some of the guys would come into my barber shop, I'm skipping. When someone come in the barber shop and they'd stay drunk on this street a lot when I lay down we used to give them hot shaves then-I would lay the guy down in the chair and he would open his mouth and breathing all that nasty stuff. Ohhh that was terrible! I'd tell them sometimes, shut your mouth because that was a smell you know. Then I got along pretty good then I met my wife. Then she was born on 27th street and well I went to West High School a little while in Salt Lake, I was in 5 and out of that school. She went to school here and she is a number one person with me after 63 years, number one. We always took care of each other all the time. I never been away from my wife after 10:00 if she didn't know where I was. I never did, I always stayed around home all the time because she did. I enjoyed her so much and we had two kids you know. One of them just passed away 6/7 years ago, but the girl is doing real well out in Maryland. She built a big home and I don't think I'll be going back out there no more because I'm 90 years old and she built a home out there with 27 steps to the top and I can't go. She'll be here tomorrow morning, my daughter will. She laughed about that all the time, well come see me then I'll come see you. My little granddaughter is a peach. She have a good job, she live in Manhattan in New York. She has what I mean she have a job. She might make $500 a day, $1000 a day. She don't make less that and she's gone all the time. She was in Madrid last year, Shanghai in Japan and now she's in San Francisco. She'll be performing again in Salt Lake City. She set up places for all the target places that she can get too. She come here and she was in target and she was looking, she watch the shelves, how you place everything and how everything would be. One lady walked up and said what are you doing? She told her well we don't do things like that and she just hand it back to her and just kept walking. She don't argue at all. You should see her, she's really light. With all of that it came from me starting with the Hotel Utah and those people, the MTC was right down kind of west, northwest of the hotel. It's right where the conference center, in that area, that's where it is now. Then they took 6 it to Provo and they used to discuss a lot of things you know about church and stuff and I would listen to them because I didn't have—I was adopted so I didn't have nothing to go on nothing at all. I just did what I could do myself. I enjoyed all of my workers, they're nice. They all can cut hair, wouldn't have them if they didn't. They're true like my helpers as well as I did with my family that I had. I want to get back to this porters and waiters thing because I said this one guy actually got killed in there. He ran on the road like everybody else so this guy was aiming and his name was Bill Edwin. I can't name a lot of names but his name was Bill Edwin. He was working there and then they had other people there, so a good cook until the people that come from all around to eat at the porters and waiters. It was always welcome there in the porters and waiters. They really didn't have no junk there. The people was turned back that would come there and feel like they were going to destroy something in there. They would turn them back so this porters and waiters was so good to people. So good to people you know. I enjoyed that. That's some of it, but I got some most of it. Then you can answer that. Then I started playing golf, that's what everybody knows me by, the golf. Everybody, we had a 24th street like my birthday be on the 24th of this month. Okay so that was where we was, like I said Allan Holmes, Frank Robinson, and a lot more other players and one thing I liked about baseball was they had the Ogden Reds. That was good, Ogden Dodgers. When I went to New Orleans that was probably, I stayed upstairs in the hotel, New Orleans hotel and early that morning I woke up and there was guards standing in front of the hotel so it kind 7 of frightened me. I said what's this going on I told my wife and I said look why are you guarding my door? Because you're Willie Mays that's why we're guarding your door. I said I'm not Willie Mays, I'm not Willie Mays. Yes it is. We see right here your name is W. M. Willie Mays, it was Willie Moore you see and that's what it was. I couldn't convince them no kind of way. They followed me all downstairs, was guarding downstairs. Had me signing autographs outside, about 25 autographs because they wouldn't let me go. Mr. Moore I know you Willie Mays because my parents know you. That's where you are and that's what you going to be, Willie Mays. My wife come down and broke that up, but I had a lot. That was some of my experience and all that experience came from being in the hotel. The hotel really learned me a lot and when they sold the hotel Utah, they didn't tear it down, but they changed the Hotel Utah. When they did they sent a letter to me because I'd work there. All the people that worked there they sent them letters. We going to change this hotel into other things. It might be a room up there or two because the upstairs was where the residents lived south side upstairs. That's where they lived all the time. We going to change this thing and when we change it we going to send you another letter. When they name it the Smith Building, see they named it the Smith Building and they changed it and everything. My whole life was around the hotel and 25th street and 2nd south was two of the kind of street. They both had people would come. I remember the time when guys coming from the porters and waiters had been cut or something in the snow time and you could trace them with blood all the way to their house. Yeah, 8 you could see the blood track all the way to the house. This is some of the stuff that went on. It all came out and everybody and everything was coming out of the porters and waiters then, that's why the porters and waiters got so famous. It wasn't supposed to be famous like that, but they got it famous. Like I said cause they had different places, that was the only prostitute house. They had other prostitute house, they had clothing stores, they had everything on this street. Porters and waiters got big fame because people didn't understand it. I gave you the real understanding, there was no prostitute in the porters and waiters. You got some more stuff there? WJ: Absolutely, so after coming to Ogden how long did it take you to establish your barber shop? WM: Well it took me about, there was a lady there called Cory Eason, she leased the place then she turned it to me. About 70 years ago, that's when I went into business here. I was oh about 68 years, I'll say 68 years. I stayed in business until now and I've had all different kinds of barbers. We've had as many 97 barbers. What happened was in the United States gave us the shops if we would open them up all over Utah. Dugway and all that stuff you see. That was us and all we would do is ride into the place, clean, sterilize it real well (audio cuts out) WJ: We were talking about how long it took you to get your barber shop established? WM: Real slow and I tell you I was across the street, there was a white side and a black side you know that. Well I was over there and a guy called Archuto, Spanish guy was on this side of the street. He'd decided to quit, but I'd worked over there a long time in the La France Hotel and all those places. He decided to 9 quit and go up in the community and he said if you get a Mexican barber Willie then I'll let you have this place. You can't have it unless that because they are not going to come to you and nobody else unless you have a Mexican barber here. So I got a Mexican barber and I've been working with barbers ever since. It didn't take very long at all. I just walked in and started, he had the shop, walked in and started the shop. (audio cuts out) 10 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Willie Moore. The interview was conducted at his barber shop on 25th Street on December 12, 2013, by Sarah Langsdon. Willie discusses his experiences with 25th Street. SL: Okay this is Sarah Langsdon and I'm here interviewing Willie Moore at his barber shop on 25th Street. Today is December 12, 2013. So Willie this is sort of a continuation with what they had started with you a while ago. So when you came to Ogden was it still segregated? WM: Yes segregated on both sides. One side was blacks and one side was whites. The south side was black, the north side was white. That's the way they had that and then most of the places you couldn't eat in them because they were segregated. Had a few Chinese places that you might want that you could eat in. They're called Mama's, Mama's Café. It was kind of fun, guy would trim his toenails and then go fix your food. SL: So what about other places in Ogden or outside of Ogden? WM: All dance halls were segregated, but if a big band come or something like that, the white would always go to the other side to hear the music. They all got to where there was no segregation when the big bands would come. Then there was segregated again. There's no time in Utah that I could find, because what happened was, when I knew they were coming in front, then I would go to the station and I would get their instrument and take them in. I'd stay with the instrument until they quit. I was always in the building when they couldn't do it. That was one thing I kind of enjoyed because I was there. 11 SL: So who were some of the big band people that came through that you remember? WM: You know King Perry, Kyle Basey, I don't know one too big, but I know some sit in with the musicians here because they had a contract. When you do have a contract then you can't perform unless it's at that right place, but all your musicians can. All of the band can't play 'cause you have a contract in just that one place. SL: So did they come and play, a lot of them come and play with Joe McQueen when he was here? WM: Yes a lot come with Joe McQueen and he played really well himself, sure did. All the people like him and on this side of the street Ogden hadn't been too bad. They had a lot of places on this side of the street that was like drug stores, they had places for cleaning; they had clubs I would say all over everything. They had all of that going when they would come by, but they had all that going. SL: So your shop has had many locations when you were here in Ogden right? WM: I had about six locations. SL: So can you tell me a little bit about why you moved around and why you ended up staying, coming to 25th street and staying? WM: I wanted a better place to work. They fixed a better place for me to work and I enjoyed that because we came here a long time ago. The lady that was really a partner of mine, but we went to school together and she leased this place. Then I lease, work right with her, that's been about 72 years ago. Her name was Cory 12 Eason and so I've had part with that. Haircuts was about 35 cents when we came here and if you was an apprentice, haircuts were 15 cents, that's happened then. SL: So why did you stay here on 25th street? WM: 25th street is the best location that you can find and the best people around this place. I had some people that I didn't know were so nice until I kind of mingled with them a little bit. They were so nice to me on 25th street and that's why I'm here and we're still like to stay here. I'll be back here soon, regular, until they think that I'm still here. SL: So during the war a lot of troops were coming in through the trains WM: A lot of people coming, lots of people, not a small amount, I mean lots of people come here. They had navy bases here, they had this brothel place across the street. They had about 5 or 6 of them over there and the reason why that was is because when they would come to the base or coming through then there was no women here. They didn't have the wives with them so that made the brothel place really famous, yeah real famous. SL: So was that Rose's place across the street? WM: Rose Davie, her husband was named Bill. Really what happened with that was a funny thing went on there. Bill and Rose would open at 8:00 in the morning and they would stay open until 5:00. When 5:00 come no woman from that place would be on the street. They would dress and they would come back on the street just like you wouldn't even know they were working in those places. Everybody just hated Rose because she had a pink Cadillac and it was pink and she wore dark shades and a dark cap on her head. In this Cadillac was 13 convertible and she'd ride up and down the street all time, making sure those girls wasn't on the street after a certain time you know dressed the other way. They had some place that was pretty fancy, it was a place down below here called the Show Windows. What would happen, the girls would stay in there and walk all over the place all the time, that was their job. Then you picked a person that you want and then they would let her out or stay where she could and they would unlock it. She would do what she was going to do and then they'd lock her back up as the day go on. They also had a red hanky over there and it was over the El Boracho. What would happen there was is when they got to serve as I say, then they would come to the window and flash this red hanky then you could go up. I was about 15, a little young somewhere in there. I was going to try my luck up there and it was the best girl up there I think was about $2.50 and the others were $2.50. I was going to get me one, I was so young I didn't really know and I started up and one of those pimps caught me by the head and told me, "If you don't get out of here-I know you-get out of here before I beat you half to death." I didn't try that no more. SL: So you were talking about the Rose Rooms, but there were a lot of other well-known hotels and clubs on 25th street. Did you frequent any? WM: Yeah they had some on the street called Johnson. They had about five of them on the other side. They had, let me tell you this. Out of all those things they had everyone seemed like they was welcome and in charge so much. Ogden was a good place, it just changed about it every ten years. They had a lot of clothing stores down here as I said before, cleaning, and cafes. 14 Another thing about the porters and waiters, I'm going to get over there real quickly like. The person, nobody knew who was furnishing the money for the porters and waiters. This black group got together and they would come to Ogden and they would find the place and that was the porters and waiters. When they found the porters and waiters they lease the place and that's where those fellows stayed. Nobody knew that Billy Weekly-nobody knew him much but he was the person who worked there in Ogden club and they gave him money to complete this porters and waiters. Everybody think that they were, it was a brothel place, but it wasn't, was not, see. Billie Weekly would sit in the door and to keep the people from going up. They would come to the porters and waiters from the train and when they come from the train the men didn't have their wives so they would fool around places that like. They weren't for the porters and waiters at all. It was just where they meet and dance and eat, that's what it was porters and waiters, and gamble. I know one time this is funny. You wouldn't know about this, but they had a cord like this cord here that go downstairs and there was gambling downstairs and upstairs. They had a light on that thing and they put me in shoe shine there, I didn't want to shoe shine, but I didn't know what the was there for really, I really didn't. What they had, they had a little plug along the floor and when the police would come. He'd sit in this chair all time and he'd take his foot and if it was a policeman coming he'd bash this little plug. Then the policeman found it out and one time they were going downstairs to do some gambling and he raised his foot up to touch that thing to let them know the police were coming. The police said 15 keep your foot up, don't mash it down cause I know what you're doing. Stuff like that, but porters and waiters they would just forget. Annabelle she had every kind, everybody was her friend. She was their friend, but Billie Weekly when he was sitting at this door to keep them from going up there he had the key to go upstairs where he lived. The brothel people weren't up there, that's what people thought. He had the key and Annabelle and a guy called Lyle Kersaki he started to go around Annabelle all the time. He was going Annabelle and they borrowed this key from him and told him Annabelle and him borrowed this key and then he gave it back. So then he died with that kind of thing going. They wanted me to put the barber shop and that was in the La France Hotel, La France Hotel that's where I was barbered. Lyle and Annabelle come over and says we want to put this in the porters and waiters barber shop. Billie Weekly who owned the place said Willie don't do that, the place is too hot for that. I want you to stay just like you are, Moore's Barber Shop other than being in the hotel. They always raid the hotels and that was one thing that happened in the hotel. It was like I said, Ogden was the worst place in the world. It was nice place to come cause you know you could and most of the rest was Chinese and Japanese on this street. I would trade Ogden for any place as they changed. I wouldn't change anyplace that I love because I guess I got along cause I didn't do the just go to the shop and my house. There's nobody here in my family but me, all my life. I've been here by myself that's why I was always afraid to go out. I never drank, never did smoke, 16 and never did oh so many other things that I didn't do because I was going these Mormon kids a lot. They didn't do all of those things so it kept me clean because one of them told me, "Willie if you put good things in your body, good things will come out. If you put bad things in there, that's going to come out. You bet your boots you see." I decided I would follow that rule and not do those things and the world got real nice. I've had nice barbers, that's one thing I've had. I've had barber shops all over the county because they one time, they didn't cut black hair, they didn't cut white. They didn't cut no hair so we had the Mex with the blacks, we had that, that was ours. It was still good and we made a lot of money. I took Hill Field barber shop over and what we did, me and a pair or person they gave us a chance to put barber shops in all bases and we had about 97 barbers once. We would just go over and see, if I was going. I had good connections, never had no problem in my barber shops at all. I had one guy who was kind of funny like. He was from Mississippi and he come in and he wanted to dance. He wanted to dance with this black girl and she was ugly, I thought she was. He said "Willie boy I like to dance with that girl, but I want to get a haircut." So I said, "Okay that's a deal." When I put him in the chair and put the towel on his face, a hot towel that's what it used to be. A hot towel I see that towel easing down over his eyes, he wanted to know what was going on. Towel come on down and then he said, "Martin Luther King is marching in Alabama." He said, "Barber," I said, "What?" "Will you take this damn towel off my face?" I said, "Why?" "You either take this towel off and sharpen this razor and I'm a friend now." When I see that 17 towel coming off and I got to tell him about all this stuff. It changed a lot. Ogden had changed lots of times, but it had been really bad. 15 years ago, Ogden you wouldn't even know it, oh yeah it was just terrible. Then started 25th street business you know and they started coming up better, much better. I had Ms. Roosevelt come in my shop. Yeah she came into my barber shop 'cause they were having a meeting and they was running for president. She had these guards with them and when she seen all the people standing around reading while she come in. All the people in the barber shop sat around and all she said was vote, vote, vote. That's what she kept saying to the people, she wanted them to vote. I enjoy Ogden. SL: So how did you meet Betty? WM: I knew her brother. See Ogden, Betty went to Ogden High School when it was maybe one black. I was going to West High School it was maybe two blacks. They had more, this is real funny. All the blacks turned white so they didn't fool me too much. They had kind of turned, but I didn't go that road anyway. So Betty broke arms skiing in Ogden, skating. She was about 8 or 9 years old then and they had a maple. She had a rink in Salt Lake City so Ogden went to ski. I went to her dad's one night, we used to dance. I went to church and after this church thing about 2 or 3 Sundays I went down to where they danced. She was down there dancing, oh she could dance. Little dance was too much for her. I mean little dance wasn't enough for her. She could really dance and I thought she was so pretty. She's all business she turned me around fast, all business she was. When she died the same thing. 18 When she died I just feel bad 'cause I always sleep with my arm like this. I told her, I said Betty I don't care how bad things get whoever your mate is whoever your friend is you kiss them goodnight. Lock your arms and stay with them. The night before she died she hollered up on me all night. For six weeks, "Willie, Willie, Willie, Willie I'm so sick," she said, "My stomach hurts and right here is so tight." I don't know what then she woke up a little while and she said, "Willie I'm going to die pretty soon." I started feeling bad, but there's a part of this, getting along. I start thinking, "Don't leave me here by myself. Don't leave me." She hollered one night so loud you could hear her all over the community, "Willie!" Just like that. The next morning I kissed her and I was coming into the barber shop. I kissed her on the jaw every time, whether she's mad, sleep or what. She looked up and said, "Willie don't kiss me on the chin this time." She turned over and she said, "Kiss me on my lips." I say, "Okay," she went on out. That's what made me feel so bad. She was a good person, she played the church piano, she was one of the first person that had a newsletter, big newsletter in St. Rose Lima, but before she joined the Catholic church she was part of a Methodist Church. A little girl playing the piano for them. When she started to go to St. Rose Lima it was a man who did most of this stuff. So she wrote this newsletter and then later she want to read. The man was reading and in this community she fought for years, let a woman take this part, let a woman do this. Finally they decided to let her read and she read for a long time. She spent a lot of time in that church, along with as I said we'd go out to dance. 19 We'd go over to La Kai, we were part of the La Kai over there. We knew them before they killed themselves. All the kids and everything, we'd go there to eat. They had six people there when we first went. We stayed with them until-for Mother's Day you go there now they'll have 13 or 1400 people. Isn't that big? That was so sad, we knew them so well and everything. In the meantime I said we tried to go to the nicest place and a bad place can be nice if you want to be nice yourself. You know you have to do that yourself, that's the way I feel. Another thing we figured, laying in bed with people was a good thing. Understand them and another thing I'll tell them here in the barber shop I don't care what going in the barber shop out there when you hit that door smile. I can't be mad with everybody. That was some of the things I liked about her. She would smile when I'd come in and I holler, she'd be upstairs. We stayed at that place 50 some years, son said, "We were together 65 years see. Sometimes I'd get so mad you know ohhhh!," but I said it low so she couldn't hear me. She was a nice woman. SL: So did you ever take her dancing at like the Berthana or White City? MW: Berthana, her mother worked there for 50 years. SL: At the Berthana? MW: Yes, if we don't go before you, they got a big sign that said with the governor plate with about 5 or 600 little, small names all over it at the Berthana. She worked there 50 years and we would go there, but we didn't go to dance then. Dance was just about gone, it was skating then. Then they had the White City Ballroom and they had the one out on, coming into Ogden I forget the name of it right now. Her parents worked all over, that's what they had to do, work. After 20 they would go away we could dance a little bit, eat a little bit cause everybody was gone. I guess you can tell what you want to in this thing, but this had nothing to do with it. I worked at the Hotel Utah and they used to have the MTC, I did everything that worked. Everything to get a job. I was trying to work hard to get a lot of money so we could go out. You don't know nothing, you're not raised by nobody. I was always trying to find something to do and then after I got married I got smart and that was all by Betty. It was all about her, she was sweet. She was sweet. SL: So I have to ask you this question. There's been rumors of tunnels on 25th street. Do you know anything about those? MW: No I don't, I do know when I came here there was a short tunnel where the China men would go in and smoke opium. I never seen it go all the way across, but it was open there for that. In fact it went along here. I think it was, but nobody definitely going all the way across. You do know this that underneath you can go from door to door, underneath some places. Go door to door, but I didn't know it was completed. I've seen everything else but that. When you speak of that one sailor lived upstairs cause that's what they had in the Army. It wasn't the Air Force, it was Army then and one morning they threw him down upstairs here, they killed him and threw him right down there. Right on the sidewalk and guess what happened, I left here running. If you think that roadrunner can run you should've seen me getting away from here. I left here quick so that was all part of it. 21 She was a fine person and always tried to tell me Willie you got to love people. You got to love them whether they're good or bad you got to love them and they'll love you. But if you don't love somebody you keeping all that stuff in your mind it's going to stay right there. She wanted to love everybody and education. She wrote poems you don't have much time now, but we got a place almost like this full of books. Even Barnes and Nobles doesn't have as many books as she has. Even got big bags and I believe she knew about you and you would never know it. She was a collector. She liked that and she liked, really liked John's family. She said a lot of stuff, I got a lot of stuff back there when Charlie Trentlemen start. I got some of the stuff back then from him, when he started as a kid. I had to bring some down here, she liked education. She loved kids and everything that was one of the things I liked about her. SL: So being on 25th street did you notice sort of the anti-vice push that happened in the 50s and 60s? WM: Yes you know it wasn't quite as many people killed, but a lot of people were hurt, shot and everything. There's one guy was coming across the street, they cut him up and he died right in the middle of the street there, just fell dead. I've seen that, El Boracho, all the places. People in Clearfield didn't even like the people in Ogden and they had a lot of it. I know that sometime-when you said one thing that worried me a little bit, this guy, black guy he was supposed to have been the smartest person in the world. He knew everything, he was smart so he went in and bought his groceries and when you hear about it, it was a California Flea Market, right up here on the street here. Well he went in and bought his groceries 22 and stole a clock and put the clock in his bosom. Go to get out with it and as soon as he started walking out with the clock started off. I thought that was one funniest thing that you ever seen in your life. See nowadays they would put him in jail, but there was just people there you know, but that was one of the funniest things. There was a lot of funny things that make you laugh after you think. I seen one time a guy got killed, not killed but stabbed all over. It was snow like that out there you could trail him to his house and they did that a lot. Let me tell you this though, there was a lot of famous people out of this town, 25th street. Some of them felt like 25th street was way beyond their thoughts, but it was here too. You know they were here too, a lot of it. I used to open up at 6:00 in the morning right here in order to clean them up so they could go there, they'd be having meetings. Doctors, lawyers, all of them, but I don't know no name or nothing, but that's what happened. I've seen it all. SL: So did you ever know Marshall White, Doc White? WM: I knew him when he first got off to come to Salt Lake City. I'm going to give you the real dope on him I don't care what nobody say, I'm going to give you the real dope. In Salt Lake City he come as an army man. His girlfriend was a Chigley in Salt Lake City we delivered her to a place called High Marine Hall. Then everything help him get off. We went and took him to the High Marine Hall, we stayed up there. He come here a little while and then he wanted to be a policeman. He tried to be a policeman in Salt Lake City and they said no we don't want you to be any police for Salt Lake City. He said you might not like our rules anyway. He said if I had a policeman, I would let this policeman. If he arrest a 23 white person he'd have to stand there until the white cop come to take him to jail. They didn't let black men to arrest a white man, I've seen all that. Now I'm going to get down to where he is now. He come to Salt Lake City to work, he was a foot doctor I'd call him. He come to want to be a policeman. They told him in Salt Lake City just as I'm telling you because we lived next door. They told him they don't hire blacks, but go to Ogden they hire anybody over there, anything. That's what they said so he came over here. He had to work his way in, he worked his way in from this foot doctor into health. Then in the health thing they hired him as a policeman. They didn't want him to be a policeman they hired him anyway, policeman. He made a detective, he was quite a smart guy. I sit on the other side of the street, he was very clean, anybody can tell you. Nice clothes, when he caught a guy once and the guy he hit him over the head, he was bleeding. Doc would hold his coat out so he wouldn't bleed and hit him like this. Yeah I've seen it all. You know it wasn't quite what it was like, this is the worst place in the world though. I know when the war was going on this place so well known until they sent a letter and they put 25th street Utah. Didn't have no address and it came right down to the porters and waiters. This 25th was quite a thing, quite a place. SL: So was Doc White the first black cop in Ogden or were there others? WM: They had others, but Doc was the first one. They had one called Pete, then they had this other guy, he was going with a girl up in the hotel. They called the police and this is a cop, beat the woman. They trusted him so well that when the police 24 would come in he would walk in the door and say I got it all settled out. They went on their way, woman's up there laying half naked. It was another policeman up there. I had a son who was the best in Ogden. When you go up there you look in the football, you find his name up there, but he was a crook. He was my boy, a natural crook. He was such a nice to everybody they didn't see that. He was quite a fellow. SL: So having lived in Ogden for numerous years how do you think Ogden has changed? WM: For the best because when it was like it was before like I said they had all that drinking and fighting going on. They come this last time with a different view. They have just a few bars and they have just a few fights. They had everything here, they had a fellow that sit right where he's sitting all times for almost a year and a half, sitting there. When I got ready to go out to buy a car in the evening time, just as I open my door he jumped out with a pistol. Said "I got to have 25 dollars now." I said "Why, I don't have no 25 dollars." He said, "Yeah you have 25." I said "How do you know?" He said, "'Cause I was sitting there looking you cut hair all day so you got that 25 dollars to give me." Then I talked to a policeman after then, they said don't try to do anything just try to identify him. See they're prepared to do what they going to do, but you are not so you don't know this is going to happen. He knows it, but then they built it up nicely now. I hope it keeps going, it's improving so much. They have theatres all up and down 25 the street here, yeah Lyceum and all that. So Ogden had been the worst place in the world, it's been nice, but it hasn't been the worst place in the world. I love it! SL: Did you use to go to the Lyceum? WM: Yes go to the Lyceum. Lyceum was 10/15 cents for a hamburger, the biggest hamburger they had. Five cents for a drink, that's what they had. So I went to the Lyceum theater, well all of them after that. They had a café called Keely's. So all the good people ate at Keely's. You know they had banks up there and everything. Ogden has improved so much and it's coming my way. Now hey I'm leaving. I'll be back. SL: Do you have any questions? LR: I just have one. Did you know the police officer Lou Burch? WM: Oh! Big Burch talk all the time. LR: I was just curious because he told a story not too long ago about a time, and I wanted to hear your version of the story. The story went he was coming up to talk to a gentleman you were with, big Swedish guy. For some reason you mistook what was happening and you took Lou and you just threw him. WM: That's right, Big Burch that was my partner, he and I and his family and everything. See during that time when a Spanish guy and a black guy walked into the drug store and everything they had a number. When you walk into the store they didn't know it, but he'd walk in the store, he's going now and they would holler when he walk in aisle 99, that's where a black guy, white guy going in to steal something. Aisle 99 and that's where the police would go and arrest him, that's where that happens. 26 Ogden's been nice and it's going to be nicer. The whole state is going to be nicer, yeah the whole state because they got some good people in Utah. Really good and it's going to be much nicer because it seem like they have what they need now to improve this state and this town, they have it. I'll bet you money that a lot of people would stay here, they'd come here to visit, they'd be back. I can show you some stuff we got from Australia, got people come get a haircut from Australia right here. They wait until they get ready to come ski on their haircut. We got one kid who's six years old when he started coming and now he's 18 come to this place. We got lots of them that come here to visit and all over. The missionaries they know us way before we knew them. They come up and down here now. What happened is when they go and stay their two years during that time in the United States of wherever they are they would go back home and say stop at Willie Moore's Barber Shop. So that's where they come in and stop. We love the missionaries because they tell us some good stuff. Yeah they tell us some awful good stuff. SL: So when did you and Betty get married? WM: Oh back in 50, we got married twice. We slipped off to get married you see and we got married in Nevada. Went to Nevada and got married and guess what? When we got wait there was a big turkey waiting, red big old turkey. Guess what? The preacher come right after we just sat down and said your wife and you got to get married again. You either get married in the church or downtown, there's not going to be no wedding until this thing, people are here, and good people, the preacher and everything. You're not going to get married by anybody so I got two 27 licenses on her, now I wish I had one. Two licenses on here, yeah. We got married twice, we went to Idaho and then we come back. As soon as we got back my mother-in-law was waiting on us with that big turkey. You know with my diet I was going to say yes, so I enjoyed myself. They got good people here. Brewski's they're nice, Rooster's they're nice, and well I won't name them all cause it's not good if you don't name them all then you're doing something wrong. It's improving, it's going to keep to continue to improve, when they do that, Ogden will be the best place to live. I've done a lot here, I've done a lot raising my two kids in Ogden High School. From Ogden High School the granddaughter went to Duke University and she'll be paying for that the rest of her life, treat her so good. Half of the time she's out of state, Madrid, I don't know what they told her. The girl if she walked in here right now you sit right there she sit up in your lap and go to sleep. She's so small that when my wife died she did the eulogy or something there. I could be laying on the bed and she come lay right on top of me. Lay her little head on me and guess what? She's in her 40s. SL: Is this Cara? WM: Yes, she's in her 40s. She got married and it kind of torn up things a little bit. She hasn't been married since and I worry about my family. I worry about her, she just didn't get married again. I think she's in San Francisco now, then she goes to Dallas, San Francisco, Houston and other places like that in the United States where they have these big orders. She had something to do with Targets. She 28 come in here and she'll look and find the place for Target, put Target here. She looks so little. I said lord have mercy but that's what she does. SL: I noticed Carol looks a lot like Betty. WM: Yeah she does and think like her too. Oh I can hardly stay home sometimes tell her to pick up stuff and change this around and set this way. Oh! SL: So how did Betty start working out at Hill Field? WM: Oh, well when Hill Field come there was very few places that you could work in Utah. Samuel's and Keely's all those places, very small. So when Hill Field come this guy called Jack, I forget his name, he was the head of Hill Field. They went to school together and she failed. She failed and Big Jack told her said, "Betty you go to work here. You take it until you've completed." She took it two times and she completed it and started working at Hill. Worked all those years at Hill Field, but at the Hill Field time I told her, "Betty someday you might retire." We had these two kids, I took a little short job over at the train station over there in order to help us with our family. She was my friend ever since and she thought it would be different honest to god. I was a bragger 'cause I was pretty sharp myself, had no problems. Cutting hair and saving my money. Dress-I wish you could go to my place and see I got a lot of suits, a lot of suits all the way over. I mean a big line of suits and Betty tell me, "Don't you go out looking like a clown. You go dressed up every time." This is some of the things-she was in front of me, Utah Corrections-she was in front of me there on that board. I've been in Chamber of Commerce twice that was because she wanted Lamar Butler who she went to school with. See 29 what happens was, during that time it was very easy for a white person. You were by yourself, but she didn't know anyone hardly they'd say, "Uh oh look there she goes. Did she turn the corner?" "Yeah she turned the corner." "We'll keep our eyes on her." They didn't know what they heard. It's so pitiful that all people that don't know each other. I tell them all the time hey you know me. Some of them come in they want a pop, you black. I said sure what's wrong with that? Gee I would be white if they didn't keep me in the oven too long. You got to have it. You're going to be great. Both of you going to be great with your job cause you ask good questions. SL: So I read somewhere that you used to do golf tournaments. WM: I mean tournaments all over this. Would you get my golf tournament stuff out of there? My pictures of stuff. Oh I got about six or some trophies. I used to play golf, that's all I did. I played from Hilton Island to Pebble Beach to anyplace you can name. I got a stack of stuff like this. I won the Mormon tournament and that's a tournament they have that people from Idaho, Wyoming, and Utah, 100 people. I walked away with the tournament. Yeah walked away with it and guess what? Winning the tournament and birthday on the 24th of July, that's when my birthday is on Mormon. I played golf. SL: So did you used to hold tournaments for fundraisers for kids? WM: Yes, we had one at Ben Lomond, we had one at Riverside, places like that. Whole tournament and I was going to do it this year, but seemed like Betty was kind of slowing up a little bit and I wanted to stay close to her. I think if it come again next year I'm going to do it for one of the big disease. We win a lot of 30 money, Leavitt mortuary, up here, he was helping me and we win that together. Well Ernie Snider, all those places we were together. You can call Ernie, we had the same birthday, 24th of July. He owned two or three golf courses: The Bluff, Riverside, and another one. We go together, that's the reason I had all these different clothes. I wanted to be ready, I didn't want anybody dragging me along. I don't want to walk my head up. Yeah that's what you want to go, that's what both of you are going to do. It's going to be there for you all you have to do is get it. It's out there, I tell my wife you're just as great as anybody out there. You're as great as they are and I told my kids that. They seem to did pretty good, but I tell you what happened about five years ago. Somebody killed Betty's son. He had a check come from the government it was really big. They beat him in the back of his head and took his check. I think it was 17,000 then, but it had more coming. They beat him all over the head and I tell you, you could hear Betty scream from here to Salt Lake. She walked in and seen him and they killed him and took his money and everything. Just when he got off that child thing. You have to change sometime if you don't change you don't know where you're going, a person might lead you any place. That's what I used to tell them all the time. I told be a leader, if you be a leader know where you're going, you're going to make it. If you got any kids or any friends or anybody, make them be number one. I tell them I said when you go out in the world today don't never tell you that we are broke. Just tell them we don't have no money today. That's the way I did. I learned that because I was adopted here with Jewish people and they 31 like money. Jewish people like money, they don't food around, they like money it's quite a thing. This is a busy barber shop, but it doesn't look like it now. I'm glad because I can talk loud, I like to talk. Betty and I talked like we were strangers. I loved that. I'll never forget her, no never forget her. Somebody told me the other day would you think about getting married again? I says, "What? I'll kill you dead." That's my Betty the rest of my life, that's the way I feel. That's the way I'm now, love it and I love people. Good golf tournaments and good basketball tournaments. Golf, basketball, pool and bowling go to these places up there. Like when they didn't let us eat. We would bowl black and white, but we couldn't eat together. Up on 25th street we ordered 28 steaks, that's all they had in the place, 28 steaks. When we got ready to eat they said, "We can't serve black." I say, "What?" "We can't serve black." I said, "Well, you know funny thing about that I got to work for them because I'm in the barber shop. You don't serve blacks, that's okay because I don't eat blacks either because it would mess up my stomach. Every time I eat one it mess up my stomach." We walked out of there; they come out left those steaks. You should see that Japanese man (ha ho ching chong bing bong!!!) we gone, eat them yourself. So many times like that, but it wasn't the toughest thing in the world. The toughest thing in the world was education. If they had an education girl they had education think good, think real good. You'll make it, I bet you will. What I mean by that is, there's nobody on the hill that has no more than you have if you got education. You can do what you want with it and they can't do no more than you 32 can with it. So if your kids say, "Momma we broke," say, "No we just don't have money today." They give me hell here, all these barbers, but I know how to handle them. I say yes and don't get mad. You come in that door there all mad about what happened you going to be in bad shape, got to be good. SL: When did you play for the Harlem Globetrotters? WM: Well what happened that was, I went to a black school called Gramblem College and I wanted to come back to Utah. The globetrotter was coming up this way and they could only play in black school. They play at black school so they told me we're short of people, we need another person. I say okay but the way we do that, but my name could be John Robinson and John Robinson being on their team. People didn't know that who I was, there was a way to see the Globetrotters. Globetrotters had a pretty bunch of girls when we'd go and play we'd come out of there, the girls out there waiting. So I when substituted for a lot, but I helped them even when the Globetrotters broke up. See people don't know the Globetrotters broke up and the team they broke up from was the big Globetrotters and they were named Harlem Magicians. If you ever look at them-I got a shirt up here right now, I think it's in this drawer. A shirt up here and they got six stars, big stars on the Globetrotters. Then when we broke up we let those stars here, but farmer was about this size so he couldn't see. When they would see Globetrotters all the time what would happen there is-Garcia would you look in here? Garcia look in there and see that shirt in there. I got a shirt here now right in this corner, you see it there, right in 33 the top drawer. Is it the bottom? Yeah that's one of my old shirts. I got a lot of stuff. The Globetrotters and the Magicians we had there. I enjoyed it, see those stars. You can put it back. What we would do with that is we would go in front of the Globetrotters. We still Harlem Globetrotters, but we were performers and we would go in ahead of the people and collect the money. When the Globetrotters come, the real Globetrotters there wasn't no money for them. I substitute all the time. When they had a girl they wanted to see or when someone got sick or something that's what happened. I enjoyed it, but I wasn't a clown no more when I met Betty. She didn't like the clowning so I had to get out of that thing. That was one thing I like about her, she was just real. We would go out with somebody and she'd bring up that race thing and I just got so shaky. I said, "Don't do that now," but she said, "When am I going to do it?" You know about it that's what she said to me. Tough as a boot. SL: Well thank you Willie, we appreciate it. WM: Okay I'm so glad you come down. I've had more fun with you than I had with what's his name? Charles, he stayed here a long long time. I thought I had his stuff here I guess I don't. This right here I want you to talk about this one. 34

Siba Grovogui on IR as Theology, Reading Kant Badly, and the
Incapacity of Western Political Theory to Travel very far in Non-Western
Contexts




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The study of International Relations is founded on a
series of assumptions that originate in the monotheistic traditions of the West.
For Siba Grovogui, this realization provoked him to question not only IR but to
broaden his enquiries into a multidisciplinary endeavor that encompasses law
and anthropology, journalism and linguistics, and is informed by stories and
lessons from Guinea. In this Talk, he
discusses the importance of human encounters and the problem with the Hegelian
logic which distorts our understanding of our own intellectual development and
the trajectory of the discipline of IR.




Print version of this Talk (pdf)




What is, according to you, the biggest challenge / principal
debate in current IR? What is your position or answer to this challenge / in
this debate?



I don't want to be evasive, but I
actually don't think that International Relations as a field has an object
today. And that is the problem with International Relations since Martin Wight and Stanley Hoffmann and all of
those people debated what International Relations was, whether it was an
American discipline, etc. I believe you can look at International Relations in
multiple ways: if you think of à
la Hoffmann, as a tool of dominant power, International Relations is to this
empire what anthropology was to the last. This not only has to do with the
predicates upon which it was founded initially but with its aspirations, for International
Relations shares with Anthropology the ambition to know Man—and I am using here
a very antiquated language, but that is what it was then—to know Man in certain
capacities. In the last empire, anthropology focused on the cultural dimension
and, correspondingly separated culture from civilization in a manner that
placed other regions of the world in subsidiarity vis-à-vis Europe and European
empires. In the reigning empire, IR has focused on the management and administration
of an empire that never spoke its name, reason, or subject.



Now you can believe all the stories
about liberalism and all of that stuff, but although it was predicated upon
different assumptions, the ambition is still the same: it is actually to know
Man, the way in which society is organized, to know how the entities function,
etc. If you look at it that way, then International Relations cannot be the
extension of any country's foreign policy, however significant. This is not to
say that the foreign policies of the big countries do not matter: it would be
foolish not to study them and take them into account, because they have greater
impact than smaller countries obviously. But International Relations is not—or
should not be—the extension of any country's foreign policy, nor should it be
seen as the agglomeration of a certain restricted number of foreign policies.
International Relations suggests, again, interest in the configurations of
material, moral, and symbolic spaces as well as dynamics resulting from the
relations of moral and social entities presumed to be of equal moral standings
and capacities.



If one sees it that way then we must
reimagine what International Relations should be. Foreign policy would be an
important dimension of it, but the field of foreign policy must be understood primarily
in terms of its explanations and justifications—regardless of whether these are
bundled up as realism, liberalism, or other. Today, these fields provide different
ways of explaining to the West, for itself, as a rational decision, or a
justification to the rest, that what it has done over the past five centuries,
from conquest to colonization and slavery and colonialism, is 'natural' and
that any political entities similarly situated would have done it in that same
manner. It follows therefore that this is how things should be. Those justifications,
explanations, and rationalizations of foreign policy decisions and events are
important to understand as windows into the manners in which certain regions
and political entities have construed value, interest, and ethics. But they still
belong, in some significant way, to a different domain than what is implied by
the concept of IR.



I am therefore curious about the
so-called debates about the nature of politics and the proper applicable
science or approach to historical foreign policy realms and domains, particularly
those of the West: I don't consider those debates to be 'big debates' in
International Relations, because they are really about how the West sees itself
and justifies itself and how it wants to be seen, and thus as rational. For the
West (as assumed by so-called Western scholars), these debates extend the
tradition of exculpating the West and seeing the West as the regenerative,
redemptive, and progressive force in the world. All of that language is about
that. So when you say to me, what are the debates, I don't know what they are,
so far, really, in International Relations. The constitution of the
'international', the contours and effects of the imaginaries of its
constituents, and the actualized and attainable material and symbolic spaces
within it to realize justice, peace, and a sustainable order have thus far
eluded the authoritative disciplinary traditions.



Consider the question of China today, as
it is posed in the West. The China question, too, emerges from a particular
foreign policy rationale, which may be important and particular ways to some
people or constituencies in the West but not in the same way to others, for
instance in Africa. The narrowness of the framing of the China question is why in
the West many are baffled about how Africa has been receiving China, and
China's entry into Latin America, etc. In relation to aid, for instance, if you
are an African of a certain age, or you know some history, you will know that
China formulated its foreign aid policy in 1964 and that nothing has changed.
And there are other elements, such as foreign intervention and responsibility
to self and others where China has had a distinct trajectory in Africa.



In
some regard, China may even be closer in outlook to postcolonial African states
than the former colonial powers. For instance, neither China nor African states
consider the responsibility to protect, to be essentially Western. In this
regard, it is worth bearing in mind for instance that Tanzania intervened in Uganda to depose Idi Amin in
1979; Vietnam ended the Khmer Rouge tyranny in Cambodia in 1979; India
intervened in Bangladesh in 1971—it wasn't the West. So those kinds of
understandings of responsibility, in the way they are framed today in the post-Cold
War period, superimposes ideas of responsibility that were already there and
were formulated in Bandung in 1955: differences between intervention and
interference, the latter of which today comes coded as regime change, were
actually hardly debated. So our imaginaries of the world and how it works, of responsibility,
of ethics, etc., have always had to compete with those that were formulated
since the seventeenth century in Europe, as "international ethics",
"international law", "international theory". And in fact that long history full
of sliding concepts and similar meanings may be one of the problems for
understanding how the world came into being as we know it today. And this is
why actually my classes here always begin with a semester-long discussion of
hermeneutics, of historiography, and of ethnography in IR and how they have
been incorporated.





How
did you arrive at where you currently are in IR?



I came to where I am now essentially
because of a sense of frustration, that we have a discipline that calls itself
"international" and yet seemed to be speaking either univocally or
unidirectionally: univocally in imagining the world and unidirectionally in the
way it addresses the rest of the world, and a lot of problems result from that.




I had trained as a lawyer in Guinea, and
when I came to the US I imagined that International Relations would be taught
at law school, which is the case in France, most of the time, and also in some
places in Germany in the past, because it is considered a normative science
there. But when I came here I was shocked to discover that it was going to be
in a field called Political Science, but I went along with it anyway. In the
end I did a double major: in law, at the law school in Madison, Wisconsin, and
in political science. When I came to America and went the University of
Wisconsin, I first took a class called "Nuclear Weapons and World Politics" or
something of the sort, it was more theology and less science. It was basically
articulated around chosen people and non-chosen people, those who deserve to
have weapons and those who don't. There was no rationale, no discussion of
which countries respected the Non-Proliferation Treaty, no reasoning in terms of which
countries had been wiser than others in using weapons of mass destruction,
etc.: there was nothing to it except the underlying, intuitive belief that if
something has to be done, we do it and other people don't. I'm being crass
here, but let's face it: this was a course I took in the 1980s and it is still
the same today! So I began to feel that this is really more theology and less
science. Yes, it was all neatly wrapped in rationalism, in game theory, all of
these things. So I began to ask myself deeper questions, outside of the ones
they were asking, so my Nuclear Weapons and World Politics class was really
what bothered me, or you could say it was some kind of trigger.



This way of seeing IR is related to the
fact that I don't share the implicit monotheist underpinnings of the
discipline. That translates into my perhaps unorthodox teaching style,
unorthodox within American academia anyway. Teaching all too often tends to be
less about understanding the world and more about proselytizing. In order to
try to explore this understanding I like to bring my students to consider the
world that has existed, to imagine that sovereignty and politics can be
structured differently, especially outside of monotheism with its likening of
the sovereign to god, the hierarchy modeled on the church, Saint Peter, Jesus,
God, uniformity and the power of life (to kill or let live), and to understand
that there have always been places where the sovereign was not in fact that
revered. Think of India, for example, where people have multiple gods, and some
are mischievous, some are promiscuous, some are happy and some are mean, so
there are lots of conceptions and some of these don't translate well into
different cultural contexts. The same, incidentally, goes for the Greek gods.
Of course, we had to make the Greeks Christians first, before we drew our
lineage to them. You see what I mean? Christianity left a very deep impact on
Western traditions. Whether you think of political parties and a parallel to
the Catholic orders: if you are a Jesuit, the Jesuits are always right; if you
are a Franciscan, the Franciscans are always right. The Franciscans for instance
think they have the monopoly on Christian social teaching. In a similar way, it
doesn't matter what your political party does, you follow whatever your party
says. The same thing happens when you study: are you a realist, are you
liberalist, etc. You are replicating the Jesuits, the Franciscans, those monks
and their orders. But we are all caught within that logic, of tying ourselves
into one school of thought and going along with one "truth" over another,
instead of permitting multiple takes on reality..



For me, as a non-monotheist myself,
everything revolves around this question of truth: whether truth is given or
has to be found and how we find it. Truth has to be found, discovered, revealed—we
have to continuously search. The significant point is that we never find it
absolutely. Truth is always provisional, circumstantial, and pertinent to a
context or situation. We all want truth and it is always evading us, but we
must look for it. But I don't think that truth is given. It is in the Bible,
the Quran, and the Torah. And I am
comfortable with that but I am not in the realm of theology. I dwell on human
truths and humans are imperfect and not omniscient, at least not so
individually. 



If I had the truth, then I might be one
of those dictators governing in Africa today. I was raised a Catholic by the
way, I almost went to the seminary. If you just think through the story of the
Revelation in profane terms, you come to the realization that ours are multiple
revelations. Again in theology, one truth is given at a time—the Temple Mount,
the Tablets, and all that stuff—but that is not in our province. I leave that
to a different province and that is unattainable to me. The kind of revelation
I want is the one that goes through observing, through looking, through
deliberating, through inquiry—that I am comfortable with. There can be a
revelation in terms of meeting the unexpected, for example: when I went to the
New World, to Latin America for the first time, I said, 'wow, this is
interesting'. That was through my own senses, but it had a lot to do with the
way I prepared myself in order to receive the world and to interact with the
world. That kind of revelation I believe in. The other one is beyond me and I'm
not interested in that. When I want to be very blasphemous, even though I was
raised a Catholic, I tell my students: the problem with the Temple Mount is
that God did not have a Twitter account, so the rest of us didn't hear it—we
were not informed. I don't have the truth, and I don't really don't want to
have it.





What
would a student need to become a specialist in IR or understand the world in a
global way?



I am not sure I want to make a canonical
recommendation, if that's what you are asking me for. Let me tell you this: I
have trained about eleven PhD students, and none of them has ever done what I
do. I am not interested in having clones, I don't want to recreate theology,
and in fact I feel this question to betray a very Western disposition, by
implying the need to create canons and theology. I don't want that. What I want
is to understand the world, and understanding can be done in multiple ways:
people do it through music, through art, through multiple things. The problem
for me, however, is actually the elements, assumptions, predicates of studies
and languages that we use in IR, the question to whom they make sense—I am
talking about the types of ethnographies, the ways in which we talk about
diplomatic history, and all of those things. The graduate courses that I was
talking about have multiple dimensions, but there are times in my seminars here
where I just take a look at events like what happened in the New World from
1492 to 1600. This allows me to talk about human encounters. The ones we have
recorded, of people who are mutually unintelligible, are the ones that took
place on this continent, the so-called New World. And what this does is that it
allows me to talk about encounters, to talk about all of the possibilities—you
know the ones most people talk about in cultural studies like creolization,
hybridization, and all those things—and all of the others things that happened
also which are not so helpful, such as violence, usurpation, and so forth.



What that allows me to do is to cut
through all this nonsense—yes I am going to call it nonsense—that projects the
image that what we do today goes back to Thucydides and has been handed down to
us through history to today. There are many strands of thought like that. If
you think about thought, and Western thought in general, all of those
historically rooted and contingent strands of thought have something to do with
how we construct social scientific fields of analysis today—realism,
liberalism, etc.—so I'm not dispensing with that. What I'm saying is that
history itself has very little to do with those strands of thought, and that
people who came here—obviously you had scientists who came to the New World—but
the policies on the ground had nothing to do with Thucydides, nothing to do
with Machiavelli, etc. Their practices actually had more to do with the
violence that propelled those Europeans from their own countries in seeking
refuge, and how that violence shaped them, the kind of attachments they had.
But it also had to do with the kind of cultural disposition here, and the
manner in which people were able to cope, or not. Because that's where we are
today in the post-Cold War era, the age of globalization, we must provide
analyses that are germane to how the constituents (or constitutive elements) of
the historically constituted 'international' are coping with our collective
inheritance. For me, this approach is actually much more instructive. This has
nothing to do with the Melian Dialogue and the like.



All of the stuff projected today as
canonical is interesting to me but only in limited ways. I actually read the
classics and have had my students read them, but try to get my students to read
them as a resource for understanding where we are today and how we were led
there, rather than as a resource for justifying or legitimating the manner in
which European conducted their 'foreign' policies or their actions in the New
World. No. I know enough to know that no action in the New World or elsewhere
was pre-ordained, unavoidable, or inevitable. The resulting political entities
in the West must assume the manners in which they acted. It is history,
literally. And of course we know through Voltaire, we know through Montaigne, we know even through Roger Bacon, that even in those times people realized that in
fact the world had not been made and hence had not been before as it would
become later; that other ways were (and still) are possible; and that the
pathologies of the violence of religious and civil wars in Europe conditioned
some the behaviours displayed in the New World and Africa during conquest and
enslavement.



For the same reason I recommend students
to read Kant: I tell them to read Kant as a resource for understanding how we might
think about the world today, but I am compelled to say often to my students
that before Kant, hospitality, and such cultural intermediaries as theDragomans in the Ottoman Empire, the Wangara in West Africa, the Chinese Diaspora in East and
Southeast Asia, and so forth, enabled commerce across continents for centuries
before Europe was included into the existing trading networks. This is not to
dismiss Kant, it is simply to force students to put Kant in conversation with a
different trajectory of the development of commercial societies, cross-regional
networks, and the movements to envisage laws, rules, and ethics to enable
communications among populations and individual groups.



This approach causes many people to ask
whether the IR programme at Johns Hopkins really concerns IR theory or something
else. I actually often get those kinds of questions, and they are wedded to
particular conceptions of IR. I am never able to give a fixed and quick answer
but I often illustrate points that I wish to make. Consider how scholars and
policymakers relate the question of sovereignty to Africa. Many see African
sovereignty as problem, either because they think it is abused or stands in the
way of humanitarian or development actions by supposed well-meaning Westerners.
I attempt to have my students think twice when sovereignty is evoked in that
way: 'sovereignty is a problem; the extents to which sovereignty is a problem
in Africa; and why sovereignty is unproblematic in Europe or America'. This
questioning and bracketing is not simply a 'postmodernist' evasion of the
question.



Rather, I invite my students to
reconsider the issue: if sovereignty is your problem, how do you think about the
problem? For me, this is a much more interesting question; not what the problem
is. For instance, if you start basing everything around a certain mythology of
the Westphalia model, particularly when you begin to see everything as either
conforming to it (the good) or deviating from it (the bad), then you have lost
me. Because before Westphalia there were actually many ways in which sovereigns
understood themselves, and therefore organized their realms, and how
sovereignty was experienced and appreciated by its subjects. Westphalia is a crucial
moment in Europe in these regards—I grant you that. If you want to say what is
wrong with Westphalia, that's fine too. But if Westphalia is your starting
point, the discussion is unlikely to be productive to me. Seriously!





In
your work on political identity in Africa, such as your contribution to the
2012 volume edited by Arlene Tickner and David Blaney, the terms periphery,
margin, lack of historicity recur frequently. What regional or perhaps even
global representational protagonism can you envisage for IR studies emerging
from Africa and its spokespeople?



The subjects of 'periphery' and 'marginalization'
come into my own thinking from multiple directions. One of them has to do with
the African state and the kind of subsidiarity it has assumed from the
colonization onward. That's a critique of the state of affairs and a commentary
on how Africa is organized and is governed. But I do also use it sometimes as a
direct challenge to people who think they know the world. And my second book, Beyond Eurocentrism and Anarchy (2006), was actually about that, and that book
was triggered by an account of an event in Africa, that everybody in African
Studies has repeated and still continues to repeat, which is this: in June
1960, Africans went to defend France, because
France asked them to. This is to say that nobody could imagine that
Africans—and I am being careful here in terms of how people describe Africans—understood
that they had a stake in the 'world' under assault during World War II. And so
the book actually begins with a simple question: in 1940, which France would
have asked Africans to defend it: Vichy France which was under German control,
or the Germans who occupied half of France? But the decision to defend France
actually came partly from a discussion between French colonial officers in Chad
and African veterans of World War I, who decided that the world had to be
restructured for Africa to find its place in it. They didn't do it for France,
because it's a colonial power, they did it for the world. That's the thing. And
Pétain, to his credit, is the only French
official who asked the pertinent question about that, in a letter to his
minister of justice (which is an irony, because justice under Pétain was a
different question) he said: 'I am puzzled, that in 1918 when we were
victorious, Africans rebelled; in 1940, we are defeated, and they come to our
aid. Could you explain that to me?' The titular head of Vichy had the decency
to ask that. By contrast, every scholar of Africa just repeated, 'Oh, the
French asked Africans to go fight, and the Africans showed up'.



Our inability to understand that Africa
actually sees itself as a part of the world, as a manager of the world, has so
escaped us today that in the case of Libya for instance, when people were
debating, you saw in every single newspaper in the world, including my beloved Guardian, that the African Union decided
this, but the International Community decided that, as if Africans had
surrendered their position in the international society to somebody: to the
International Community. People actually said that! The AU, for all its 'wretchedness',
after all represents about a quarter of the member states of the UN. And yet it
was said the AU decided this and the International Community decided that. The
implication is that the International Community is still the West plus Japan
and maybe somebody else, and in this case it was Qatar and Saudi Arabia: "good
citizens of the world", very "good democracies" etc. That's how deeply-set that
is, that people don't even check themselves. Every time they talk they chuck
Africa out of the World.  Nobody says,
America did this and the International Community decided that. All I am saying
is that our mindscapes are so deeply structured that nothing about Africa can
be studied on its own, can be studied as something that has universal
consequence, as something that has universal value, as something that might be
universalizing—that institutions in Africa might actually have some good use to
think about anything. Otherwise, people would have asked them how did colonial
populations—people who were colonized—overcome colonial attempts to strip them
of their humanity and extend an act of humanity, of human solidarity, to go
fight to defend them? And what was that about? Even many Africans fail to ask
that question today!



And it could be argued that this
thinking is, to some degree, down to widespread ignorance about Africa. We all
are guilty of this. And oddly, especially intellectuals are guilty of this, and
worse. Let me give you an example: recently I was in Tübingen in Germany, and I
went into a store to buy some shoes—a very fine store, wonderful people—and I
can tell you I ended up having a much more rewarding conversation with the
people working in the shoe shop than I had at Tübingen University. Because
there was a real curiosity. You would like to think that it is not so unusual
in this day and age that a person from Guinea teaches in America, but you
cannot blame them for being curious and asking many questions. At the
university, in contrast, they actually are making claims, and for me that is no
longer ignorance, that is hubris.





Your work presents an original take on the role of
language in International Relations. How is language tied up with IR theory?



The language problem has many, many
layers. The first of these is, simply, the issue of translation. If I were, for
instance, to talk to someone in my father's language about Great Power
Responsibility, they would look totally lost. Because in Guinea we have been what
white people call stateless or acephalous societies, the notion that one power
should have responsibility for another is a very difficult concept to
translate, because you are running up against imaginaries of power, of
authority, etc. that simply don't exist. So when you talk about such social scientific
categories to those people, you have to be aware of all the colonial era
enlightenment inheritances in them. When we talk about International Relations
in Africa, we thus bump into a whole set of problems: the primary problem of
translating ideas from here into those languages; another in capturing what
kind of institutions exist in those languages; and a third issue has to do with
how you translate across those languages. Consider for instance the difference
between Loma stateless societies in the rain forest
in Guinea, and Malinke who are very hierarchical, especially since SundiataKeita came to power in the 13th
century. But the one problem most people don't talk about is the very one that
is obsessing me now, is the question how I, as an African, am able to communicate
with you through Kant, without you assuming that I am a bad reader of Kant.



The difference that I am trying to make
here is actually what in linguistics is called vehicular language which is
distinct from vernacular language. Because a lot of you assume that vehicular language
is vernacular—that there is Latin and the rest is vernacular; that there is a
proper reading of Kant and everything else is vernacular; or you have
cosmopolitan and perhaps afropolitan and everything else is the vernacular of
it. But this is not in fact always the case. The most difficult thing for
linguists to understand, and for people in the social sciences to understand,
is that Kant, Hegel and other thinkers can avail themselves as resources that one
uses to try to convey imaginaries that are not always available to others—or to
Kant himself for that matter. And it is not analogical—it is not 'this is the
African Machiavelli'. It is easy to talk about power using Machiavelli, but to
smuggle into Machiavelli different kind of imaginaries is more difficult.
Nonetheless, I use Machiavelli because there is no other language available to
me to convey that to you, because you don't speak my father's language.



Moreover, there is a danger for instance
when I speak with my students that they may hear Machiavelli even when I am not
speaking of him, and I warn them to be very careful. Machiavelli is a way to
bring in a different stream of understanding of Realpolitik, but it's not entirely Machiavelli. If you spoke my
father's language, I would tell you in my father's language, but that is not
available to me here, so Machiavelli is a vehicle to talk about something else.
Sometimes people might say to me 'what you are saying sounds to me like Kant
but it's not really Kant' then I remind them that before Kant there were
actually a lot of people who talked about the sublime, the moral, the
categorical imperative, etc. in different languages; and if you are patient
with me then we will get to the point when Kant belongs to a genealogy of
people who talked about certain problems differently, and in that context Kant
is no longer a European: I place Kant in the context of people who talk about
politics, morality, etc. differently and I want to offer you a bunch of
resources and please, please don't package me, because you don't own the
interpretation of Kant, because even in your own context in Europe today Kant
is not your contemporary, so you are making a lot of translations and I am
making a lot of translations to get to something else: it is not that I am not
a bad reader.



At an ISA conference I once was attacked
by a senior colleague in IR for being a bad reader of Hegel, and I had to
explain to him that while my using Hegel might be an act of imposition, and a
result of having been colonized and given Hegel, but at this particular moment
he should consider my gesture as an act of generosity, in the sense that I was
reading Hegel generously to find resources that would allow him to understand
things that he had no idea exist out there, and Hegel is the only tool
available to me at this moment. But because all of you believe in one theology
or another, he insisted that if I spoke Hegelian then I was Hegelian, and I
retorted that I was not, but that deploying Hegel was merely an instance of
vehicular language, allowing me to explore certain predicates, certain precepts
and assumptions, and that is all. In this way, I can use Kant, or Hegel, or
Hobbes, or Locke, and my problem when I do this is not with those thinkers—I
can ignore the limitations of their thinking which was conditioned by the
realities of their time—my problem is with those people who think they own
traditions originating from long dead European thinkers. Thus, my problem today
is less with Kant than with Kantians.



Or take Hobbes: Hobbes talked about the
body in the way that it was understood in his time, and about human faculties
in the way that they were understood at that time. Anybody who quotes Hobbes
today about the faculties of human nature, I have to ask: when was the last
time you read biology? I am not saying that Hobbes wasn't a very smart man; he
was an erudite, and I am not joking. It is not his problem that people are
still trivializing human faculties and finding issue with his view of how the
body works—of course he was wrong on permeability, on cohabitation, on what
organs live in us, etc.—he was giving his account of politics through metaphors
and analogies that he understood at that time. When I think about it this way, my
problem is not that Hobbes didn't have a modern understanding of the body, the
distribution of the faculties and the extent of human capacities. Nor is my
problem that Hobbes is Western. My problem is not with Hobbes himself. My
problem is with all these realists who based their understanding of sovereignty
or borders strictly on Hobbes' illustrations but have not opened a current book
on the body that speaks of the faculties. If they did, even their own analogies
may begin to resonate differently. There is new research coming out all the
time on how we can understand the body, and this should have repercussions on
how we read Hobbes today.



The absence of contextualization and
historicization has proved a great liability for IR. Historicity allows one to
receive Hobbes and all those other writers without indulging in mindless
simplicities. It helps get away from simplistic divisions of the world—for
instance, the West here and Africa there—from the assumptions that when I speak
about postcolonialism in Africa I must be anti-Western. I am in fact growing very
tired of those kinds of categories. As a parenthesis, I must ask if some of those
guys in IR who speak so univocally and unidirectionally to others are even
capable of opening themselves up to hearing other voices. I must also reveal
that Adlai Stevenson, not some postcolonialist, alerted me
to the problem of univocality when he stated in 1954 during one UN forum that 'Everybody
needed aid, the West surely needs a hearing aid'. Hearing is indeed the one
faculty that the West is most in need of cultivating. The same, incidentally,
could be said of China nowadays.



One of the things I would like
to deny Western canonist is their inclination to think of the likes of Diderot as Westerners. In his Supplément au Voyage a Bougainville (1772), Diderot presents a
dialogue between himself and Orou, a native Tahitian. Voltaire wrote dialogues,
some real, some imaginary, about and with China. The authors' people were
reflecting on the world. It is hubris and an act of usurpation in the West
today to want to lay claim to everything that is perceived to be good for the
West. By the same token that which is bad must come from somewhere else. This
act of usurpation has led to the appropriation—or rather internal colonization—of
Diderot and Voltaire and like-minded philosophers and publicists who very much
engaged the world beyond their locales. I have quarrels with this act of
colonization, of the incipit parochialization of authors who ought not to be. I
have quarrels with Voltaire's characterization of non-Europeans at times; but I
have a greater quarrel with how he has been colonized today as distinctly European.
Voltaire rejected European orthodoxies of his day and opted explicitly to enter
into dialogue with Chinese and Africans as he understood them. Diderot, too, was
often in dialogue with Tahitians and other non-Europeans. In fact, the
relationship between Diderot and the Tahitian was exactly the same as the
relationship between Socrates and Plato, in that you have an older person
talking and a younger person and less wise person listening. A lot of Western
philosophy and political theory was actually generated—at least in the modern
period—after contact with the non-West. So how that is Western I don't know. I
encounter the same problem when I am in Africa where I am accused of being
Western just because I make the same literary references. It is a paradox today
that even literature is assigned an identity for the purpose of hegemony and/or
exclusion. Francis Galton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton) travelled widely and wrote dialogues from this
expedition in Africa, so how can we say to what extent the substance of such
dialogues was Western or British?





So in sum you are not trying to counter Western
thought, but do you feel that the African political experience and your own
perspective can bring something new to IR studies?



I am going to try and express
something very carefully here, because the theory of the state in Africa
brought about untold horrors—in Sierra Leone, in Liberia, and so on—so I am not
saying this lightly. But I have said to many people, Africans and non-Africans,
that I am glad that the postcolonial African state failed, and I wish many more
of them failed, and I'm sure a lot more will fail, because they correspond to
nothing on the ground. The idea of constitutions and constitutionalism came
with making arrangements with a lot of social elements that were generated by
certain entities that aspired to go in certain directions. What happened in
Africa is that somebody came and said: 'this worked there, it should work here'—and
it doesn't. I'll give you three short stories to illustrate this.



One of the presidents of postcolonial
Guinea, the one I despise the most, Lansana Conté (in office 1984-2008), also gave me one
of my inspirational moments. Students rebelled against him and destroyed
everything in town and so he went on national TV that day and said: 'You know
I'm very disheartened. I am disheartened about children who have become
Europeans.' Obviously the blame would be on Europe. He continued, 'They are
rude, they don't respect people or property. I understand that they may have
quarrels with me, but I also understand that we are Africans. And though we may
no longer live in the village', and it is important for me that he said that, 'though
we may no longer live in the village, when we move in the big city, the council
of elders is what parliament does for us now. We don't have the council of
elders, instead we have parliament. They, the students, can go to parliament
and complain about their father. I am their father, my children are older than
all of them. So in the village, they would have gone to the council of elders,
and they could have done this and I would have given them my explanation'. And
the next morning, the whole country turned against the students, because what
he had succeeded in doing was to touch and move people. They went to the head
of the student government, who said: 'The president was right. We had failed to
understand that our ways cannot be European ways, and we can think about our
modern institutions as iterations of what we had in the past, suited to our
circumstances, and so we should not do politics in the same way. I agree with
him, and in that spirit I want to say that among the Koranko ethnic group,
fathers let their children eat meat first, because they have growing needs, and
if the father doesn't take care of his children, then they take the children
away from the father and give them to the uncle. Our problem at the university
is that our stipends are not being paid, and father has all his mansions in
France, in Spain, and elsewhere, so we want the uncle.' He was in effect asking
for political transition: he was saying they were now going to the council of
elders, the parliament, and demand the uncle, for father no longer merits being
the father. He was able to articulate political transition and rotation in that
language. It was a very clever move.



The second one was my mother who was
completely unsympathetic to me when I came home one day and was upset that one
of my friends who was a journalist had been arrested. She said, 'if you wish
you can go back to your town but don't come here and bother me and be grumpy'. So
I started an exchange with her and explained to her why it is important that we
have journalists and why they should be free, until our discussion turned to
the subject of speaking truth to power. At that moment she said, 'now you are
talking sense' and she started to tell me how the griot functioned in West Africa for the past
eight hundred years, and why truth to power is part of our institutional
heritage. But that truth is not a personal truth, for there is an organic
connection between reporter and the community, there is a group in which they
collect information, communicate and criticize, and we began to talk about
that. And since then I have stopped teaching Jefferson in my constitutional
classes in Africa, as a way of talking about the free press, instead I talk
about speaking truth to power. But it allows me not only to talk about the
necessity of speaking truth to power, but also to criticize the organization of
the media, which is so individualised, so oriented toward the people who give
the money: think of the National Democratic Institute in
Washington, the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung in Germany, they
have no organic connection to the people. And my mother told me, 'as long as
it's a battle between those who have the guns and those who have the pen, then
nobody is speaking to my problems, then I have no dog in that fight'. And
journalists really make a big mistake by not updating their trade and
redressing it. Because speaking truth to power is not absent in our tradition,
we have had it for eight hundred years, six centuries before Jefferson, but we
don't think about it that way. I have to remind my friends in Guinea: 'you are
vulnerable precisely because you have not understood what the profession of
journalism might look like in this community, to make your message more
relevant and effective'. You see the smart young guys tweeting away and how
they have been replaced by the Muslim Brotherhood, because we have not made the
message relevant to the community. We are communicating on media and in idioms
that have no real bearing on people's lives, so we are easily dismissed. That
is in fact the tragedy of what happened in Tunisia: the smart, young protesters
have so easily been brushed aside for this reason.



The third story is about how we had a
constitutional debate in Guinea before multipartism, and people were talking about
the separation of powers. And I went to the university to talk to a group of
people and I put it to them: why do you waste your time studying the American
Constitution and the separation of powers in America? I grant you, it is a
wonderful experiment and it has lasted two hundred years, but that would not
lead you anywhere with these people. The theocratic Futa Jallon in Guinea (in the 18th and
19th centuries) had one of the most advanced systems of separation
of powers: the king was in Labé, the constitution was in Dalaba, the people who
interpreted the constitution were in yet another city, the army was based in
Tougué. It was the most decentralised organization of government you can
imagine, and all predicated on the idea that none of the nine diwés, or provinces, should actually
have the monopoly of power. So those that kept the constitution were not
allowed to interpret it, because the readers were somewhere else. But to make
sure that what they were reading was the right document, they gave it to a
different province. So the separation of powers is not new to us.



In sum, the West is a wonderful
political experiment, and it has worked for them.
We can actualize some of what they have instituted, but we have sources here
that are more suited to the circumstances of the people in that region, without
undermining the modern ideas of democratic self-governance, without undermining
the idea of a republic. Without dispensing with all of those, we must not be
tempted to imagine constitution in the same way, to imagine separation of
powers in the same way, even to imagine and practice journalism in the same
way, in this very different environment. It is going to fail. That is my third
story.





Siba N. Grovogui has
been teaching at Johns Hopkins University after holding the DuBois-Mandela
postdoctoral fellowship of the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor in 1989-90 and
teaching at Eastern Michigan University from 1993 to 1995. He is currently
professor of international relations theory and law at The Johns Hopkins
University. He is the author of Sovereigns,
Quasi-Sovereigns, and Africans: Race and Self-determination in International
Law (University of Minnesota Press, 1996) and Beyond Eurocentrism and Anarchy: Memories of International Institutions
and Order (Palgrave, April 2006). He has recently completed a ten-year long
study partly funded by the National Science Foundation of the rule of law in
Chad as enacted under the Chad Oil and Pipeline Project.





Related links




Faculty Profile at Johns Hopkins University
Read Grovogui's Postcolonial Criticism: International Reality and Modes of Inquiry (2002 book chapter) here (pdf)
Read Grovogui's The Secret Lives of Sovereignty (2009 book chapter) here (pdf)
Read Grovogui's Counterpoints and the Imaginaries Behind Them: Thinking Beyond
North American and European Traditions (2009 contribution to International Political Sociology) here (pdf)
Read Grovogui's Postcolonialism (2010 book chapter) here (pdf)
Read Grovogui's Sovereignty in Africa: Quasi-statehood and Other Myths (2001 book chapter in a volume edited by Tim Shaw and Kevin Dunn) here (pdf)




Print version of this Talk (pdf)

Transcript of an oral history interview with Robert William Christie, conducted by Jennifer Payne on 21 November 2013, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Dr. Robert W. Christie matriculated at Norwich University in 1940, the youngest member of his class. Although he is an alumnus of the class of 1944, he did not graduate until 1947 due to service in World War II. Dr. Christie received his M. D. from SUNY College of Medicine in 1951. He practiced medicine in Northfield, Vermont, 1952-1954, then specialized in pathology and practiced as a pathologist at seven hospitals in northern New Hampshire and Vermont. He discusses his experiences in the military as well as at Norwich University and as a physician in his interview. ; 1 Robert W. Christie, NU '44, Oral History Interview November 21, 2013 At the Kendal at Hanover Continuing Care Retirement Community 80 Lyme Rd, Hanover, NH 03755 Interviewed by Jennifer Payne JENNIFER PAYNE: This is Jennifer Payne with the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. Today's date is November 21st, 2013, and I am with Robert W. Christie—class of '44—and we are at Kendal at Hanover Continuing Care Community at 80 Lyme Rd. in Hanover, New Hampshire. Thank you, Dr. Christie for agreeing to be with us today and to do an oral history. ROBERT W. CHRISTIE: Thank you Jennifer. It's a pleasure and, I believe, a privilege to be able to do this. I've called a few things that I've written to augment this oral history, and I'll start off with the Independence Day celebration address that I delivered at the Dartmouth College Green in Hanover, New Hampshire on July 4th, 2012. JP: Thank you. RC: "I believe I was asked to speak here today because I am one of the contributors to—as well as one of the editors of—Kendal at Hanover's recent book of memoirs, "World War II Remembered". My comments will be about some local history, some personal history, some family history, and a few beliefs that I hope you may find to be of interest, and perhaps even instructive. I will conclude by offering you a challenge. (break in audio) JP: -- now. OK. RC: I will conclude by offering you a challenge. First, the local history. My alma mater is Norwich University, the country's oldest private military college, which was founded in 1819 right across the Connecticut River in Norwich, Vermont. Its initial enrollment, as I recall, was 17 male cadets. Captain Alden Partridge, its founder, attended Dartmouth and later became superintendent of the US military academy at West Point. Partridge, an American education visionary, believed that Norwich University's graduates should be trained to lead in times of 2 peace, as well as in times of war. The concept of land-grant colleges, and ultimately the nation's reserve officers' training program—ROTC—were founded at Norwich University. The first land-grant college bill was introduced by Representative Justin Smith Morrill of Vermont in 1857—using Norwich University as a model and prototype—and was enacted into law in 1862. The mission of these institutions, which include Cornell University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, as set forth in the 1862, was to focus on the teaching of practical agriculture, science, military science, and engineering—without excluding classical studies. I might add here that, during the Civil War, many of the Confederate Army officers were West Pointers—were West Point graduates, who had defected to the Confederacy, and many others were from the numerous state-supported military schools and colleges scattered throughout the South at that time. The Citadel and VMI are two examples. The only source of professionally trained officers in the Union army in the Civil War were graduates of West Point and Norwich University. Norwich University now resides in Northfield, Vermont, following a disastrous fire in 1866. An apocryphal tale has it that the university's old south barracks burned to the ground as an act of arson by Dartmouth College students who were intensely jealous of the attention Norwich's men in uniform were getting from the local young ladies. Since 1972, Norwich has been --" (break in audio) RC: "--teen-seventy-two Norwich has been co-ed—the first military college to become so. It now has an enrollment of over 2,000, including both cadets and civilian students. Last year, as I recall, the highest ranking cadet regimental officer, and one or two of the battalion commanders, were women." (break in audio) RC: I think I was a trustee during that time at Norwich, and I might have been involved in the discussions about integrating women into the Norwich family. So -- JP: That would be fascinating.3 RC: OK. Go back to. JP: Sure. Yeah. RC: "Next, some personal history. I spent eight years in the military. Three in horse cavalry ROTC at Norwich, and as an enlisted man and commissioned officer in the US Army. Horse cavalry had become obsolete, and I ended up in armor—tanks. My military occupational specialty—MOS—was tank unit commander. My military experience overseas in World War II was in the ETO—the European Theatre of Operations. I joined the 33rd Armored Regiment of the Third Armored Division. At the beginning, the Ardennes offensive—the so-called "Battle of the Bulge". The Third Armored Division was the spearhead of the First Army. My combat service was as its tank platoon leader, and eventually the company commander in a medium tank battalion. My promotion to company commander had much to do with fate, luck, and the attrition—300%—in men and equipment that the Third Armored Division experienced. From its going ashore in Normandy, until the end of the war. I moved up in command as my company's more senior officers were killed, wounded, or rotated. (break in audio) RC: "and a result of the attrition—300%—in men and equipment, that the Third Armored Division experienced. From its going ashore in Normandy, until the end of the war. I moved up in command as my company's more senior officers were killed or wounded. When the war ended at the Elbe River in Germany, we met the Russians, who had just arrived at the other side of that river. My survival and presence here today has a lot to do with my following one of Murphy's rules of combat: 'Never follow anyone braver than yourself.' Unless, of course, my company's orders from the battalion headquarters were taking that next objective, move out. I never felt brave or heroic. I just followed orders and trusted that I would somehow survive. It never really occurred to me emotionally that I would be killed. Now, some family history. On my mother's side of the family, my great-great-great-Grandfather, Johnathon Hildrith was a captain in the militia raised in Chesterfield, New Hampshire, and fought in the Revolutionary War's Battle of 4 Bennington in 1777 [sic]. I guess that makes me a son of the American Revolution—comparable to the Daughters of the American Revolution, whose name is much more familiar than the sons'. My great-Grandfather, on my father's side, George H. Weeks, was a sergeant promoted to first lieutenant in the Union army in the Civil War. American Civil War records show that as a member of the New York 115th infantry regiment, over his three years of service, he fought in 57 battles and scrimmages in Maryland, at Harpers Ferry, and Fredericksburg, Virginia—as well as in Florida, North Carolina, and Maryland. My father, George R. Christie, who's trained as a pilot and commissioned as a second lieutenant in the army's fledgling Air Corps in 1917—18. His memoir, "Wooden Props and Canvas Wings" tells, with humor and candor, what that experience and learning to fly was like in World War I. My younger brother, George R. Christie, Jr., enlisted in the army and was a parachute infantryman, AKA paratrooper. But fortunately, he did not have to serve in combat because Japan surrendered and World War II ended. He did, however, have to jump out of moving airplanes while in the air. And here are some of my beliefs. Perhaps my family history has led you to think that I am a hardcore, super patriotic, militarist by family tradition. Far from it. I found out firsthand what war was like, and I would like to see it disappear from the face of the Earth. But I fear it will not. I suspect war is built into the genome of the third chimpanzee. That's us, as Jared Diamond has characterized Homo sapiens in his book of that title, "The Third Chimpanzee". Anthropologist Jane Goodall describes troops of lower world-order chimpanzees systematically annihilating other troops whose territory they've coveted. Will and Ariel Durant, authors of the 11-volume, "The Story of Civilization" followed it in 1968 with a concise summary book, "The Lessons of History". I reread that 117-page book every New Year's Day. The Durants' chapter on war is not encouraging. Here is a quote: 'In the 3,421 years of recorded history, only 268 have seen no war.' Now, in 2012, you can add on another 44 years, and make that 268 out of 3,465 years. 5 Here are eight things that I believe to be true. War and religion are the two great constants in civilization's history. In our time, overpopulation of the Earth is a fundamental cause of most of the world's problems, especially war. Human ignorance, greed, religious conflicts, and weapons of mass destruction come next. In that order. If a country does not adapt, and prepare for war imaginatively and continually, others who have so prepared, will overcome it. The British were slow to find that out during our Revolutionary War when the colonials used the ungentlemanly tactics of guerrilla warfare over a period of seven years, to force the British to surrender. Number four, terrorists and drones are now the guerrilla equivalence of 21st century warfare. Number five, in warfare, science prevails. Prayer vigils and marches for peace, unfortunately, have not been shown to be effective. The world's acknowledgement of the overwhelming military and economic power of the United States is what has prevented, so far, another world conflict. Number six, American democracy—based, perhaps, on its Anglo-Saxon beginnings in English with the Magna Carta—shines as a beacon of hope to the rest of the world. Number seven, democracy cannot be exported. It has to arise from within a people, as did ours here in the United States. And number eight, our democracy along with liberty, must not be taken for granted. It must be nurtured, defended, and—when necessary—fought for when others threaten. So I am an unapologetic patriot, staunch believer in liberty, our constitution, and our way of government—with all its flaws. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis stated, 'Our country's founders believed liberty to be the secret of happiness, and courage to be the secret of liberty.' So here's my challenge to you. On this day of celebration of our independence, for which so many Americans before us have given their lives—I challenge each of you to carry in your heart that secret of happiness. The flame of liberty. And to accept the responsibility and courage to preserve and hold high the torch that carries that flame. May God bless each of you. May God bless our independence. May God continue to bless America." So that's the end of that. RC: I almost flunked out of OCS because my voice projection was inadequate in the eyes—or ears—of "Natty Bumppo" who was the "Tac Officer" for our class at OCS at Fort Knox. And he told 6 me he was going to wash me out if I didn't improve, and he gave me a week to improve my voice as I spoke—that I would use in commanding troops. So I did. Very carefully, I went out behind the barracks and talked loudly and focused and so on. And so, a week later, he had me take charge of the company—the OCS company that I was in—and had me lead them on the parade ground by giving voice commands of which way to turn, where to stop, so on. Incidentally, as a footnote, my father almost flunked out of flight school at Cornell—pre-flight school—because—for the same reason—he was not giving commands loudly enough! And as a result, he had to, once again, command his troops on the parade ground. And during that exercise, he managed to march them into the side of the barracks. Which again, almost flunked him out of OCS. But my father was survivor, and he survived that, too, and went on and graduated from the pre-flight training, and went on to learn to fly in Arkansas. JP: Oh, my. So, where were you born? RC: I was born in Mineola, New York. My father said that the hospital in Mineola was in Nassau County on Long Island, and my mother was supposed to have a delivery date—which had passed by—and so, they got out in the car and drove around in the hopes that driving around would stimulate labor. And they were going through Mineola, and she started to have labor pains, so they drove right up to the hospital, and there she stayed until she underwent the delivery. So that's why I was born in Mineola, New York. But both my parents were New York City folk for generations. And I actually lived in New York from time to time, and—but most of my boyhood, and going up to public high school, was in Freeport, New York—which is also on Long Island. But the—when people ask me where I'm from, I always tell them I'm a New Yorker because I really feel I have that accent—and I just feel like that was where I came from. OK? JP: Yes. That's great. Why did you—how did you decide on Norwich? RC: Well, that's an interesting question. Actually I didn't decide. My father decided. My father was an employee of the Standard Oil Company of New York all his life. And he moved up in the ranks—so to speak—and it was the—talking to some of the—of his colleagues in the fuel oil 7 division. And he said, you know my son is thinking about going to college. Do you guys—you're all college graduates—do you have any suggestions to give me? Because I never graduated from college and my wife never graduated from college. And so, we don't know where to start. So, one of the guys during this conversation happened to be a Norwich trustee. And he said, George, I know just where your son should go. And he said, Norwich University. It's a beautiful location up in Vermont. It's a wonderful school. I'm a graduate myself, and he should go there. And my father said, well you know, I've been thinking about seeing whether I could get Bob into West Point, but I don't have any political connections—and he just went to a public high school, and wasn't a particularly outstanding student, so I don't think that will ever happen. And this other fellow—whose name was [Fred Coburn?] [00:21:46] a Norwich trustee—said, well you'll get the same kind of training at Norwich that you would have gotten at West Point. And he said, you know, I think that we can agree there's a war coming. This was back in 1940. And you've been in the army, you know that officers are treated better than enlisted men in the service, and when he finishes his experience at Norwich, he'll be commissioned a second lieutenant from the ROTC. So my father came home and told me the story, and said, that's where I think you ought to go. I was a good boy. I always followed what my mother and father told me to do. So I said, OK, Dad. And he said, I'll write the checks and we'll go up there when we find out whether you've been accepted or not. And sure enough, I was accepted readily. Because getting into Norwich was not a problem in those days—there were very few applicants, as it turned out—and they, Norwich, was really very happy to have anybody show up who wanted to go to Norwich. So I never set foot on the Norwich campus until the day my mother and father drove me up to Northfield, Vermont. And neither of them had ever been in Vermont themselves. They dropped me off at the parade ground. I gave them a big hug, and they drove off, and I never saw them again on that particular location until my graduation seven years later in 1947. After the war. So, that was my introduction to Norwich University. JP: And your major was a chemistry—you were a chemistry major --8 RC: Well, yeah. That's another story. I said, "Pop, you know, I don't know anything about college. How do you know what kind of courses to take?" And he said, "Well, you know, son, the chemists in this company do exceptionally well. And he said that they're well paid and they have interesting job. Why don't you take courses in chemistry?" That's how I became a chem major. I wasn't an outstanding high school chemistry student, but my father told me it was a good idea. So, being a good boy. And incidentally, I was the youngest man—next to the youngest man in my class of 1944, when I matriculated. Gerry Collins was the only one who was a few weeks younger than I was, and we were both 16-years old. JP: You were 16. You graduated from high school and were at Norwich at 16? RC: Well, and that's another story in itself because my whole career at Norwich—in those first three years before I went into the service—I was just not of the same mindset of the rest of my classmates. They were one year older, one year more experienced, been out with more girls, done more things, and so on. And I just felt—and I really actually was—kind of a misfit. And I always was a—you know—I wasn't a momma's boy, or a daddy's boy, but I always was a—I followed what my family told me to do. And that wasn't what most of my classmates experienced, I bet. And so—and that feeling dogged me through the first three years of college, and I did not terribly enjoy Norwich as a cadet—for that reason. I didn't realize it at the time, but when I got back, and put in my final year—after having been in the army, been through the war, and all of my classmates at that time—I caught up with them. Let me leave it at that. I felt very comfortable my senior year, when I was at Norwich. The first three years, they were not good years for me. JP: Oh. Did you join a fraternity? RC: Because I was a social misfit, I was never invited to enjoy the privilege of being tapped for a fraternity. It was only when I came back to Norwich, as a veteran, that—over at Theta Chi—which started at Norwich University – they invited me to come and join the fraternity. A lot of my friends were there, so I did. So that's my fraternity history.9 JP: But you were—you were editor of the "Guidon"? RC: Well, I would have been—in my senior year—I had worked up from the reporter, to assistant managing editor, to managing editor, and I was actually putting down—putting the newspaper together—the "Guidon"—and I used to go down to John Mazuzan's office. He was a Norwich graduate, and he published the "Northfield News"—the Northfield newspaper—and I used to set type down in his printshop for the headlines of the next issue of the "Guidon". So that's really—I think—where I got hooked on writing, publishing, editing—which exist through—have existed through my lifetime. JP: You've written five books, at least? RC: Yeah. JP: Yeah. So, I was going to ask what you did to relax. But you didn't—didn't really -- RC: Well, that's another story. At Norwich, in those days, you didn't relax. I mean, if you were an engineer major—civil, electrical, whatever, mechanical—or you were a chem major—you had lab every afternoon, except those afternoons when you were on the parade ground, or down at the riding hall. And there was no free time. And you went to bed at taps, you got up at reveille, and you didn't relax. It was go, go, go. But, you know, for a kid my age—a teenager—that was life. And this is what you did when you went to a military college. I didn't know any different. JP: My gosh. What was your least favorite class at Norwich? RC: Well, if you were a chem major, you had to take scientific German. Not something you learn to speak, but you had to read—learn to read German. The reason being—purported reason—was that so much of the chemical—chemistry literature at that time, was written in German. Because all of the chemistry research was going on in Germany in the early 19—late 19th—early 20th—and throughout the 20th century. So if you wanted to be a chemist, and you wanted to be able to read the chem literature, you needed to be able to read German. And I didn't enjoy that at all. And also, I must say, that it wasn't all bad. Because, having been in Germany afterward—and having some familiarity with the language—and not having learned it to speak, or really 10 understand it as it's spoken, but to only to read and to write—it was helpful to me, because I ended up as a—in the Constabulary—which, incidentally, General Harmon was the commanding general of—after the war—the Third Armored Division became morphed into the Constabulary—which was essentially a state police organization—and we were training new recruits coming overseas to be, essentially, state police officers—rather than people going out killing people, which is what we were originally trained to do, and what we actually did during the war. So I got to know German well enough. It was called Schlafzimmer Deutsch—Bedroom Deutsch. I think you get the connection. And so you get to use a lot of the language necessary to get along. And my job, as a troop commander in the Constabulary in the city of Ulm was to run the city through the Bürgermeister, the mayor. And so the Bürgermeister used to come to me every morning to get his orders of what the Constabulary wanted him to be doing or not doing. And so, you know, I had to carry on a conversation with him, and he spoke some English and I spoke some Deutsch, and we were able to communicate. So this course that I took at Norwich was not completely lost. JP: You may not have enjoyed it at the time, but -- RC: No. JP: Was there -- RC: But that's true of so many things in life, you know? You just never know how things are going to be useful, not useful—you regret them, you enjoy them later on—never realizing how important they might be in your life. Incidentally, I notice that I'm dropping my voice at the end of—do I don't know whether that's not coming through well. JP: You're still—when you talk, it goes up to the orange, so—mine isn't—let's see—upped it a little bit. I'll keep an eye on it, but you're looking—looking good. RC: You mean, I'm hearing good.11 JP: Yes. Yeah. Well, I look at this, and as long as you go in—up to the orange—you're fine. We don't want you in the red a lot, because then it could clip—although I've never had that happen—but so far, so good. Was there a favorite instructor at Norwich who you had? RC: Well, I had two—three. Perley Baker1 who was a professor of chemistry. Shorty Hamilton2 who was next in command. They had both been in the—in World War I, and they had been in the chemical warfare departments. And I liked them both. Absolutely different personality. Perley Baker stood up straight, was well-dressed, uniform, trousers creased, so on. Shorty Hamilton was a bit of a slob, if I may say so—very relaxed—very laid back, Vermont-type personality. And we all were respectful of Perley Baker, but we all enjoyed the presence of Shorty Hamilton. I'll put it that way. And if you had a problem, you'd enjoy talking to Shorty rather than Perley. That does not mean that we didn't think a lot of Perley. The third guy—I've forgotten his first name—his last name was Taylor.3 He was a civilian. He was very uncomfortable in uniform. I think he was at Norwich as an instructor in English because somehow he thought he might not have to go into the real service if he was a professor at Norwich. Anyhow, it didn't turn out that way because Norwich closed, and I don't know where he went. Never—but he taught English. And I loved that course. That's where, incidentally, the term "Natty Bumppo" came from because some of the readings that I did were Nathaniel Hawthorne.4 And it may not have been American history that he taught. It might have been teaching American literature—I think that was it—and we did a lot of reading of American literature. And I really enjoyed that. And I realized—I've realized, latterly in my life, that I should have been an English major, not a chem major. But, you know, I was on the Dean's List all the time, so it wasn't completely lost. JP: For the audience, can you explain who Natty Bumppo is? For those not familiar. 1 Perley Dustin Baker, Professor of Chemistry 2 Harold Chapman Hamilton, Professor of Chemistry 3 Ralph Carlyle Taylor, Assistant Professor of English 4 Natty Bumpo is the protagonist of James Fenimore Cooper's Leatherstocking Tales.12 RC: Natty Bumppo was a comical character in Nathaniel Hawthorne. I've forgotten all the details, but if we can break right now -- (break in audio) JP: And we're back with Dr. Christie. So, let me ask you. Do you remember any funny stories about life or people at Norwich? RC: Well, after so many years, it's hard to recall. But one funny story that I actually described in a publication here at Kendal, was a small essay called "Life's Darkest Moment" or "The Day I Goosed Shorty Hamilton". So I'm going to read this little essay. "It was one of those Tuesday or Thursday afternoons when all those of my classmates majoring in liberal arts were either back in their barracks doing Chinese infantry drill, i.e., sacked out, or walking towards around the upper parade of Norwich University to work off excess demerits, or sweating on an athletic field for some jock team. The sophomore chemistry majors—guys like myself—were doing the lab exercise requisite to quantitative—or maybe it was qualitative—analysis, down in the dingy basement labs of Dodge Hall. Major Shorty Hamilton—his real first name, I believe, is Harold, but I'm not sure. Major Shorty Hamilton and Lieutenant Perley Baker were the two professors staffing the chemistry department. Both had graduated from Norwich, and both had served in the US Army. Each was rather austere. Perley always looked spit-and-polish military, with his neatly trimmed mustache, the bright silver leaves on one side of his cocky blouse's lapel, and cross-flasks of the army's chemical warfare department on the other. And a Sam Brown belt tightly buckled over his upper torso. I always felt that he was the very essence of a Norwich faculty member. "Shorty" was what cadets called Major Hamilton when he wasn't within earshot. My recollection is that his first name was Harold, but the years have dulled my memory. Shorty was a bit more—no, a lot more—casual in his appearance than Lieutenant Colonel Baker. His was the appearance of a college professor who dressed as casually in his military uniform as regulations would permit. His uniform did not seem to have been tailored for him, but rather for Ichabod Crane. And although he was clean-shaven, he always looked a bit scruffy. Shorty was at 13 least six-foot six, and perhaps even taller. The only other person on the entire hill who was equally tall was my across-the-hall chemistry major classmate in my barracks, Jim Lombard. 5 [00:40:45] Jim always looked a day late and a dollar short, and a dead ringer for Shorty when viewed from behind. Well, the lab on this particular afternoon wore on, and there were those frequent intervals when certain laboratory maneuvers—such as filtering in a solution—consumed time that could not be usefully employed on much else except poring over the lab manual to make sure you had it right, checking your neighbors' experiments for reassurance that you were not doing the wrong one, or even light horsing around to make time pass until a liquid in the funnel made its leisurely way through the Whatman filter and into the flask below. It was this last interval of waiting that lead to my downfall. (break in audio) RC: Since there were only uncomfortably high stools on which to perch while working at the bench, we often stood up and leaned on our elbows with our heads down over the manuals, trying to appear busy studying. To protect our uniforms from misdirected reagents, we wore long wrap-around aprons, and thus, one man's back looked very much like another's. In one of the intervals of waiting for things to happen chemically, I noticed Jim's derrière sticking far out, as it always did when he bent over the bench across the aisle from my own—a consequence of his long torso. The opportunity was more than an 18-year old could resist at the moment. I had hardly swung an extended thumb at the end of my looping right arm at the inviting target. I connected this maneuver with a resounding thump that almost lifted Jim off the floor. Or at least I had thought it was Jim. Of course, it wasn't. It was Major Hamilton. No cadet could ever have been more embarrassed than I was at that suspended moment. Although greatly surprised by this assault from behind, Shorty slowly drew himself up to his full height, and looked around to see the perpetrator of this bold and unseemly attack. His eyes centered on me through his steel-rimmed glasses, since I was the obvious culprit. I stammered, 'I'm sorry, sir. I mistook you for someone 5 James E. Lombard14 else.' I didn't know what else to do, pass gas or wind my watch. The then current colloquial military aphorism appropriate for such extreme circumstances of mortification. The professor said not a word, but rather turned around and assumed his former position leaning over the bench top next to him. Of course, I expected to suffer some terrible fate as a result of this misadventure, but none occurred. No demerits, no report to the commandant of cadets, no invitation to discuss the matter further in the privacy of Shorty's office. Nothing at all happened. But in a bleak, and laconic reference to the events came eleven years later. I was practicing general medicine in Northfield, Vermont where Norwich University is situated. Shorty, now retired from the faculty, came into my office as a new patient. Not having seen each other since my college days, we greeted one another warmly, and made some small talk as I addressed his relatively simple medical problem, which was easily solved. As was the custom in civility in those days, Shorty thanked me for my ministration, but then, on his way out—and halfway through the door—he turned, and with a broad smile, said wryly, 'You know doctor, when I heard that you had become a physician, I thought that you would have specialized in proctology.'" JP: That's a good story. RC: Well, it's kind of unique to Norwich. JP: It certainly is. And well told—well told. Gosh. How did your training prepare you for your work life? RC: Well, I can't really say that my training at Norwich prepared me for what I ultimately did with my life. And my life experiences have been so varied, and I've done so many different things at so many times, for so many different reasons, it's hard to say that I was really prepared through anything that I learned at Norwich. Except a certain attitude about—I would say—responsibility and leadership. JP: What about both of those? What is it about responsibility? RC: Well, Norwich—as you know—attempts to train people as leaders. And one of the things that you learn as a leader, is that you're responsible for the people that are under your command. And 15 since I was a corporal—promoted to corporal my sophomore year, I had a squad of cadets that I was responsible for. And learned that—also when I was down in the barn—the stables of course, is what they were called—my first responsibility was to my horse, before myself. The horse got watered, the horse got fed, the horse got groomed, before I took care of my own needs. So, I think those little things probably inculcated into my personality the importance of responsibility. JP: So you are the class agent for your class and—do you—you stay in touch with some of your classmates? RC: Well, I've stayed in touch with as many of my classmates as I was able to. The class agent before me was a fellow named Al Lockard6—good friend, a Theta Chi—and he, unfortunately, died suddenly after having both of his hips replaced. And while he was working out in post-op therapy, had a pulmonary embolism and died. And the irony is that before his operations, he and I had either spoken or corresponded. And I said, you know, Al, I would never have two major operations like that done at the same time because complications of being on an operating table for that protracted period is an additional hazard. He said, yeah, I know, but the physical therapy afterward—I don't want to go through that twice. So that's why I'm having both done. I said, OK, boy. And that was it. And sure enough, he had what I had predicted, unfortunately—a sudden, severe complications. So I took over from him as class agent. And that was many years ago. JP: You have correspondence in the archives between you and Perry Swirsky. How many years did you guys correspond? RC: Well, that's an interesting question. Perry and I were roommates during my junior year. Perry and I had entirely different personalities. He was a Jew. He had entirely different life experiences from my own—had grown up in Springfield, Massachusetts. His father was a banker. He owned and operated a chain of furniture stores, and he was very well-off. And I didn't have any contact with him at all after OCS because at OCS—when we graduated, we 6 Alan T Lockard16 spread to the winds. He went to Sicily and Italy as a tank unit commander. I went to France, Belgium, and Germany as a tank unit commander. And so, we just lost contact with each other. And he hated Norwich. I mean, I didn't have a terribly great experience my first three years, but he hated them. First of all, he was one of only two Jews in my class. And he never really integrated with the class, and as a result, he felt like a loner and an outsider. And I, in my own way, also had those same feelings—for reasons I've already explained. I was too young, and hadn't had enough of the experiences my classmates had had, and I always felt as—to be—in a way, a loner—and out of sync. So anyhow, that might have had something to do with the reason that we linked up as roommates during our junior year. Perry—if I may diverge—was a very interesting guy. Somewhere I have recorded—or recounted—the fact that there were two members of my class that I know were awarded silver stars during World War II. Perry was one of them, and another one whose name will occur to me in a moment—I'm having a senior moment—also was awarded a silver star at Bastogne during the Bulge in Belgium. Anyhow, back to Perry. Perry was a platoon leader in a brigade that was assigned to an Italian tank division. And the relationship between the American units and the Italian units was—according to Swirsky—pretty ad hoc. So he was commanded one day to take his platoon and to take the hill that this Italian major pointed out to him. And he said, when you get up there, hold your ground and don't leave for any reason. And we'll be up to relieve you. So Perry did just that. And on his way up, he was literally killing Italians and Germans who were on that hill. And then, because he couldn't stand the thought of running his tank over a possibly wounded soldier—or even a dead one—he jumped out of his tank and was taking these bodies—living or dead—out of the way of his tanks and his platoon, as he went up this hill under fire. And then he held out at the top against a counter attack, which he and his platoon repelled. And then he found himself stranded. Nobody ever came to relieve him. So, after a while, he got his guys together and took them back down the hill. And he said, the Italians forgot he was there. He said, I didn't do anything heroic, but I guess somebody thought it was worth a silver star, so that's what happened 17 to me. Well, anyhow, that's a story that I don't think has been told enough times. But just the idea that he's jumping out of his tank, under fire, to take wounded soldiers out of the way, so he wouldn't run over them. I mean, the mindset—the moral—whatever it is inside him to make him want to do that—or need to do that. But that's the kind of guy Perry was. Anyhow, at our 50th Norwich reunion, Perry and I got together again. He was awarded the Distance Cup for the guy who had traveled the furthest distance to come back to reunion. He had come from Israel. So that sort of cemented his relationship, I think, with his alma mater. Which had waned from a very weak beginning. But anyhow, he came back to his 50th. And he came and stayed at my home in Lancaster, New Hampshire after the reunion. And we really got to know each other, and our wives had a good time. And then I kept in contact with Perry, and he invited me to join him—he and his wife Betty were going to London for a week—and he said, why don't you come over and join us? So I said, OK. My wife, Connie, wasn't interested in going. So I flew over and met Perry at the hotel that he had suggested, and I went to check in, and I found out I was already checked in and my bill was paid in advance. So Perry and Betty and I had a ball for a week. We went to the theatre, we did everything. And, you know, after that it once again cemented our relationship. And then we started to write by cursive letters, then typewriters, then I started to send emails—and he didn't have a computer—and I got on his butt a little bit and told him it was time he came into the 20th century. So he got a computer and we started to exchange emails. I kept a record of every email I got from him, and a copy of everything I sent to him—and kept them in a three-ring binder. And at the end of every year, I sent the binder over to Kreitzberg Library as part of the archives. And I did that until just this past month—October, 2013—when I got an email from Betty telling me the sad news that Perry had died. And of course, in those volumes of correspondence—which is mostly nonsense, inane stuff—but correspondence between two guys with similar backgrounds, similar experience, one living in Israel, one living in the State, talking about what's going on in our country or town—and he lived in Ashkelon, which is about five kilometers from the Gaza Strip. So he used to report when the mortar shells were 18 being lobbed into Ashkelon, and they would hide in the stairwells of their apartment building—and so on. So all of this stuff, I think, is an important part of history. I'm so pleased that I decided to send that stuff to the archives. JP: I think that other researchers use it. I know I've used it. It's a great resource. It's, as you said, guys talking about world events with similar backgrounds. What advice would you give a rook today about how to survive and thrive? RC: Well, I—free advice, as you know, some said, "is the smallest coin of the realm," but I give it freely and frequently. I give it to my children whether they want it or not. And I give it to anybody when I think that they need it. But anyhow, I don't know what life is really like for a rook at Norwich now. All I know is what I remember back in the '40s. But I would say keep your head down, keep your mouth shut, keep out of trouble, work hard, learn responsibility and leadership. Beyond that, I don't know what I could say. JP: Those are good. You have a poem that you wrote. Would you be interested in reading that? RC: Well, yeah. One of my avocations is poetry. I'm an amateur. I never taken a course in poetry or how to write it, every once in a while the muse seems to sit on my shoulder, and I have this tremendous urge to sit down and write something. And at first I thought I had to write rhyme verse, and I think that's probably what kept me from writing poetry most of my life. But when I was on an expedition in Greenland and I kept a journal—which I self-published—it is also in the Kreitzberg Library. I found that I wrote some poems when I was in isolation, up on the icecap. And so I'm really surprised when I looked back and find that I've been writing fairly seriously for about 20 years—the last 20 years of my life. Why? I can't explain. But anyhow, I can only write what I feel and what I believe. And a lot of it is counterintuitive, and politically incorrect, and whatever—but I wrote one poem that I used at a veteran's luncheon that we had here at Kendal. And the poem is called "A Veteran Speaks". And here it goes. "Intelligentsia, laugh if you will. Yea, sneer at the patriotic redneck fools who chance their lives and crouch in fear in cold foxholes for the likes of you. You, who take the high ground or the streets to stake out your 19 perception of the higher morality with placards shouting, "Peace! Peace!", and then go home to a warm bed. Could it be that your God is neutral, and doesn't give a damn whether peace or war prevails? You take as a given that God is only with you. You, who are on the side of peace. Could it be that peace is but an unstable interval granted by God for the rest between the wars he has ordained as a sorting out, according to one of his laws, the one that Darwin deciphered? If you were as wise as Sophocles, you would know that only death keeps time from inevitably eroding friendships—be they of men or of countries—bringing them inevitably to war. God must laugh at the prophets. Those mystical schizophrenics that even now show up in every land, and claim to have heard the voice of God speaking directly to them. Explaining his will, giving birth to the myths contrived to all and control the credulous. And when the prophetic religious move on to theocracies, and the great Theocracies then clash for the great sorting out—Darwinian style. Then, perhaps God smiles and says, it is good. Laughers and sneerers, moral high-grounders, you leave it to others to lose their lives, taking the high-ground on the battle field. Lives you think they gave in vain. In peace's time, you finesse your turn to follow the action of someone else's father, mother, cousin, forebear, who risked their lives for you with the love you have never comprehended. Too late, you may learn that you have never lived until you have almost died. And that for those who have had to fight for it, freedom is a flavor you—the protected—have never known, and cannot understand." JP: Wow. Thank you. (break in audio) JP: So, in the book that you wrote with a couple of your classmates for your yearbook that never was—then and now. You talk about missing something—maybe—whether or not—no, it's called "Do You Remember?" and one of them is the joy of being dragged out of the sack in the middle of the night for P-call, and then being sent for a cold shower when your personal plumbing refused to produce. What is P-call?20 RC: Well, P-call is "piss call," and it was standard operating procedure to treat rooks in that way, as part of their growing up. And—what do you call that now? When you mistreat people? JP: Hazing. RC: Yeah. That was one of the hazing treatments that rooks were occasionally exposed to. And P-call was not only occasionally. I'll mention one other experience that I had as a matter of hazing by my classmates. Was that Basil Burrell who was my roommate in my freshman year—were pretty straight arrows. He and I had similar personalities, went to the same church, we had the same standards, both went to public high schools. We just got along very well together. And Bass and I were taking what was euphemistically called "a ride" as a sort of hazing and discipline, and kind of a getting-even with people who were straight arrows, and who—incidentally—were whistle-blowers. Basil and I, living according to the code of honor and the rook handbook, said that if you see something that is wrong and against the rules, it is your responsibility to report it. JP: It's still that way. Yeah. RC: So we saw guys cheating at an exam in a military class. And we said, hell, that ain't right. So we reported it. Well, I learned an important life lesson right then. Whistle-blowers get in trouble. And Basil and I were taken for a ride one night—about 2:00 in the morning—it was the late fall or early spring—I don't remember that it was in the dead of winter—and were taken in a car, blindfolded, and driven around for about twenty minutes—on what obviously were backroads—you could tell from, you know, from the rumple and the noise, and the tread of tires on the road—and they'd drop you off and leave you there to figure out how you're going to get home. And so Basil and I went on a ride once, as retribution, I think, for the fact that we were whistle-blowers. So, that's another level of hazing. And I must say that when I mentioned this anecdote to Russ Todd—a former Norwich president, and a Theta Chi whose butt I paddled as initiation to Theta Chi—and he looked at me and rolled his eyes in disbelief. He said, you mean that really happened? And I said, you're damn right it happened. And I'll tell you something else, I bet it's 21 happening right now, right under the nose of the people who have written and our trying to enforce the honor code—whatever it may be. And he said, well, Bob, you may be right. JP: You mentioned that Perry was one of only two Jews at Norwich—and I know there was a fraternity of the Klan during the teens. Was there much antisemitism there? RC: There wasn't expressed Semitism—antisemitism. And there weren't really two Jews in my class, there were three—which is another anecdote, if you're prepared for this? JP: Sure. RC: The day that my folks dropped me off on the parade at Norwich—my very first day—we were lined up by the company—the troop that we were assigned to. And we were told to line up according to alphabet—we had little tags on—and so we did that. And I was at one end, and there was another guy whose last name began with a 'Y' or a 'Z' at the other end. And in between were two Katzes—K-A-T-Z. The Katz were Isadore Katz and Sidney Katz, and once we were lined up, the second lieutenant in the army—who was assigned to the commandant of cadets—stood in front of us and said, OK. Now I want you to sound off, loud and clear, your last name first and then the first initial of your last name because that's how you'll be known here at Norwich. So we went down the line, got to me, and I was "Christie, R, sir." Then it was the next guy, and whoever it was. Well, we got to Katz. And Lieutenant Kelly was standing there observing all of this, and it came to Isadore Katz. And he said, "Katz, I." And the next one was Sidney Katz, and Sidney Katz said, "Katz, S." Kelly broke up. And the whole exercise got out of control. But the sad part of the story is that Katz Ass—as he was forever known—I say forever, for the next three weeks that he lasted at Norwich as Katz Ass. He left. He just couldn't stand that kind of treatment. And so there was only two Jews, and one was Izzy Katz, who was a good friend, paratrooper, never dropped in combat—which we reminded him of frequently. But anyhow, he and I were also on the "Guidon" staff, and we were on the War Whoop staff. So the then and now book, he and I worked together very closely. And we became very close friends. And he was a real New York Jewish type—wheeler dealer—he ran a Christmas tree farm in some 22 place up in northern Vermont. He was in show business, he was out in Hollywood, he was writing script and so on—wonderful guy—and I got to meet him again when he was living out in Tucson when I was visiting some of my wife's relatives out there. So anyhow, that's the story of Jews at Norwich in 1940-41—particularly of Katz, I and Perry Swirsky. JP: You mentioned earlier about being on the board of trustees when Loring Hart was president and considering adding women to the core. Do you want to talk about that at all? RC: Well, there isn't an awful to talk about. It happened. I would say the majority of the alumni were against it. Just as, here at Dartmouth, when it integrated and had women, the alumni were up in arms. And it was only the strength of character of the president and the trustees—said, it's going to happen. And that's what happened with Norwich trustees and Loring Hart said, this is going to happen. It's got to happen. And of course, this was before the civilian component. These were just women who were being integrated into the cadet corps. So, that was a big deal. JP: What were they afraid of? Not be obvious—not to be obtuse. RC: You know, in Fiddler on the Roof—it's tradition. Tradition. This is a men's college, it's a military college. Women have no place in the military. You know, whatever. That's history. Who would ever dream that there would be gay marriages in our time. JP: And Don't Ask Don't Tell got repealed. RC: Exactly. JP: Do you have anything else that you would like to add? Is there anything else you'd like to say? RC: Only to congratulate you and your tolerance of all that you've had to go through to take this interview. And I'm enjoying it immensely while it's happening. And, again, it's something for posterity, and that's part of what I do. Litera scripta manet, the written word endures. I think the spoken word, in our time, also endures. Someone may be listening to this 100 years from now, wanting to wonder what life was like in the early 20th century at Norwich. JP: It has absolutely been my honor and pleasure to talk with you, Dr. Christie. Thank you so much. RC: Well, thank you so much.23 JP: All right. (break in audio) [1:18:51] JP: And we're back with Dr. Christie, talking about his relationship with Dartmouth. RC: When I went to medical school, it was courtesy of the GI Bill and the Norwich Dean at the time, who made it possible for me to get into medical school without the preexisting courses that every pre-med has to take to apply to medical school. Zoology and comparative anatomy—which is dissecting cats and frogs and so on. The Dean at Norwich let me take freshman zoology and sophomore comparative anatomy in the pre-med program during my senior year, so that I would have the basic qualifications to apply to medical school. I had the good fortune to have a family friend who was on the admissions committee of the Long Island College of Medicine in Brooklyn, New York. I won't go into further detail—that's unnecessary—but anyhow, graduating from Norwich magna cum laude—having the World War II experience, the friendship of a member of the admissions committee of the medical school—all led to the fact that I was able to get into medical school at a time when GIs were coming back in droves—all with GI Bill opportunities ahead of them—and all trying to get into the existing colleges and universities. Well, I won't go into further detail, but the Long Island College of Medicine morphed into the State University of New York. So although I matriculated into a private medical college in Brooklyn, I actually graduated from the State University of New York at New York City—which was the official name at the time. It's now known as Downstate. And Downstate has an established academic history that I think has been accomplished since it was put together. The reason that SUNY was founded was that New York state found that they had no state university, much to their amazing. There were all kinds of private universities and colleges all over the state, but there was never any need for a state university. So they cobbled together one, and they needed medical schools, graduate schools, law schools, and so on. And Syracuse's medical school—which was a private medical college, like Long Island College of Medicine—became the SUNY upstate medical school, and Long Island College became the downstate medical school. 24 And that's the way they exist at the present time. Anyhow—with that little footnote—when it came year for me to graduate, I had just been very fortunate to graduate where I did in my class. Which was right about in the middle. You know, one thing that most people don't realize—and it's important—that 50% of the doctors in the Unites States graduated in the lower half of their medical school class. But anyhow—that being said—I did actually write two medical papers while I was a student—which sort of, I think, got me started on my writing career—which has continued to this day. Anyhow, these publications were the reason that I was awarded two prizes on the day of graduation, much to the consternation of most of the other students in my class who had graduated summa cud laude in medical school and wondering what this dumb guy was doing getting these awards. Well—a little background for that, too, is that the Long Island College of Medicine was in Brooklyn, and almost all of my classmates were Jewish. And I learned the lingo and I can spout a Yiddish phrase at the drop of a hat—which may have some relationship to the fact that Perry Swirsky and I got along so well. We used to exchange Yiddish aphorisms and so on. That being said—so all of my classmates—there was a Jewish quota—this is something else that is not known—during the early 19th century—in all medical schools, because the deans had their own association, and they—you may not want to record me—it's not well known, but there was a Jewish quota when I went to Long Island College of Medicine—and there were a lot of bright Jewish kids—as you can imagine—in New York City, which included Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Staten Island, Bronx—and they were excluded from medical school. They would apply, be turned down, but—being the kinds of folks they were—would say, OK, well we'll go to CCNY or NYU or Queens College, and we'll get a masters degree in physiology, and they would reapply. And every member of my class at Long Island College of Medicine who was Jewish, had a long history of applying and being turned down by medical schools all over the United States. But the ones that got into my class were the ones who had the persistence and the credentials to get in. So, that put a guy like myself—from Norwich, with its very limited background—in zoology and comparative anatomy, dissecting frogs with guys who had PhDs in 25 biochemistry and so on. And, you know, it showed up. I mean, I was a struggling student all through my first two years where it's all classroom and very little clinical experience. Soon as I got into the clinical years, I was able to really play the game with all the rest of them. I could handle myself as well with patients as they could. And so, that was one of the reasons I was able to graduate. Not because of my academic record in my first two years. But—that having been said—it's important that—the senior year was the first year of something called the intern matching program. Up until that time, everybody had to have an internship if they were going to be licensed in a state in the United States. It didn't make any difference which state. They all required the fact that you had had an internship. In other words, that you had had some clinical experience. So, I listed in this first year of the matching program—a number of the hospitals that I knew in New York City—Bellevue and Roosevelt Hospital in Columbia, PNS—and the way things worked out, I had an opportunity to list one other out-of-city appointments that I would accept. And that turned out to be Mary Hitchcock Memorial Hospital in Hanover, New Hampshire. The reason I did that was that my freshman year of medical school, a fellow at my autopsy table—there were four of us who dissected the same cadaver—was a Dartmouth graduate, and he and I became close friends. We did a lot of visiting and traveling together. And he said, I'm going to take a tour of the hospitals up in northern New England. Would you like to come with me? And I did. And he and I visited the medical school at Burlington, and the one over here in Hanover. And when I—you know, I had loved being in Vermont, and the years that I had spent there—although it wasn't all salubrious, the first three years. I did love Vermont and northern New England, and the idea—and I was married at the time—of just doing something different came to mind. And I said, oh, what the hell? So, the phone rang. Dartmouth called up the Mary Hitchcock hospital and said, would you accept an appointment as a rotating intern? There will be 11 other interns in your intern class. And I said, yeah, sure. Sign me up. And that's how come I didn't go to Bellevue or Roosevelt Hospital or Brooklyn hospital—I ended up going to Hitchcock hospital. From there, I went and finished my internship, did a year in internal 26 medicine—wanted to do what I went into medicine for in the first place. Be a family doctor. An emulation of my family doctor when I was growing up. JP: Really? RC: And so, a couple of Dartmouth medical school graduates were practicing over in Northfield, and they had a place called the Green Mountain Clinic. And they were looking for an associate, and they came to Dartmouth, and they made their needs known, and we got connected. And I said, what the hell? I'm not sure I want to be an internist. I'd like to see what it's really like to practice medicine. So that's how I got connected with being in practice—general practice for three years at Northfield. And, because of my Norwich background, Ernie Harmon—who was then the president—appointed me the university surgeon. Well, I wasn't going to do any surgery at the university. But the three of us who were the doctors in the town at Green Mountain Clinic took turns taking sick call. And what we were called was—you know, in the army, when you're the doctor, you're the surgeon. You go down to see the surgeon because that's what doctors did mostly in the army. So anyhow, that's how I became the university surgeon, and it was my relationship with Ernie Harmon—which is a whole other set of stories—that led to that. Ernie was actually one of my patients for minor illnesses. He got most of his care at the VA hospital down here. But, you know, when he had a sore throat or a boil or something like that, he'd come down to the Green Mountain Clinic and be one of my patients. As was Shorty Hamilton, of course. Perley Baker. So I was well connected later on with the faculty. But that's what my connection with Dartmouth reconnected me with Norwich. And when I got to Norwich, I was amongst a lot of Norwich alums—one of which was John Mazuzan, the fellow who had the printing office where I set type for the "Guidon", and who actually printed up the "Guidon". He was the one who did the Norwich record, and it was a very minor publication, I can assure you. And he asked me if I would work with him on the Norwich record. And so, I did, and before I knew it, I was a member of the Alumni Association. Because he was, in essence—because he was the publisher of the Norwich record of the Alumni Association. There was no association. 27 So he said, you know, I'm going to appoint you the Alumni Association president. So that's how I became president of the Norwich Alumni Association. Well, that led to a slot on the board of trustee. When I finished being a trustee for five years, with Bob Hallam—another Norwich graduate -- JP: The engineer? RC: Yeah. And a very successful one. We were approached after we finished out final year by Jake Shapiro, who was a war hero in the Africa corps—was badly wounded—shot up there—but a very dedicated Norwich alumnus. And he and I got to be good friends. And he used to visit me because he was a business man with business over in Maine, and when he was traveling from wherever he was living at the time, he would always drop in at the farm where I was living. And we would have a couple drinks together, and sometimes dinner together. So Jake was a good friend. But that came later. But Jake said to Bob Hallam and myself, you know, we've been thinking as the trustees that it's so damn sad that so many guys like yourselves, who have had all the experience in the Alumni Association—you're graduates—and so on. And you go become a trustee, and there's nothing beyond that for you to be involved with Norwich about—except maybe giving money. So Jake said, how would you guys like to start some kind of organization of fellows of Norwich University, who will sort of be in the background and be a means of continuity of active alums who have done a lot for the university, who have been connected in some way. And so, Bob Hallam and I—and the then commandant of cadets—got together and we set up the Board of Fellows, and I became the first president of the Board of Fellows, and was the president for—I don't know—five or eight years—and did that. And so, I've just been connected with everybody—all the presidents and whatever—right along the line—and that, of course, explains my deep relationship—and continued relationship—with Norwich. And I doubt that the many of my peers here at Kendal have the kind of relationship with their alma mater that I've had with mine. For all the reasons that I've been talking about here. Oh, here I've run on for more --28 JP: That's fine. I have to ask. If you've got a Harmon story -- RC: I do. Well, I have a couple of Harmon stories. JP: That's fine. RC: The first was at the time I graduated from Norwich, when we came back as seniors. Of course, we were in uniform. And we were sort of mentors to the cadets. When they wanted to know what it was like in the real military—what combat was like, all that stuff. You know, they'd—we'd have a beer together up at the tavern and—you know, we got an unofficial role—but anyhow, we were in uniform. The day I graduated, Ernie Harmon was on the stage. He was not the president at the time, but I think he might have given the graduation address. "Ol' Gravel Voice" he was called, and he gave a wonderful talk. And I—you know—he was the CG of the Second Armored Division in Africa and Sicily—not sure Africa, but I know in Sicily and Italy—and then he went to the ETO, and he was involved, as I was, in the Battle of the Bulge. So we had this loose relationship. Well, walking across the stage to get my diploma, Ernie sees my Third Armored Division patch on one shoulder of my uniform, and the Constabulary patch on the other. And of course, he had been the commanding general of the Constabulary—which my division had become, as I previously accounted as the kind of occupation police force in Germany. Well, I was the troop commander of my Constabulary troop in Ulm and the discipline was a little loose in my troop. I have to admit that. It wasn't that I didn't know what was right, or what should be done. But, you know, the war was over, I was waiting to go home, and I wasn't a spit and polish guy in my troop. It ran very well, everybody was happy, no suicides or anything like that. But anyhow, who should arrive on the scene in Goering's private train—which he had commandeered after the war. It was painted with a big Constabulary signature on the side—same as on the patch on my shoulder—and out of it stepped Ernie Harmon to inspect my troop, unannounced. Well, he came up to where we were, and he found a few things he didn't like. One was that a recent recruit was standing around doing nothing in particular when Ernie thought he should be doing something in particular. He didn't care what it was, but he should be 29 doing something. Well, unfortunately, a buck sergeant—recently over from the States, not part of the combat experience—was in charge of this group of other new recruits. And this guy, this buck sergeant, was sweeping off the steps of the mess hall. And when Ernie Harmon saw a buck sergeant sweeping the steps, with privates standing around doing nothing, he exploded. And he started to chew, and he started at the bottom, and he chewed right up through the privates, through the corporals, through the sergeants, through the top sergeant, through the lieutenants, through the captain—that was me—and he said, Christie, I don't want to have anything like this happen under your command. Understand that? Yes, sir. Well, things tightened up after that, of course. Although, he never did come back. And I came home a couple of months after that. But that was my first experience—face to face—with Ernie Harmon. Which is the prelude to what happened when I picked up my diploma from his hand. He looked at my patches and gave a kind of quizzical look, and he said, "I know you, you son of a bitch." I didn't know what to do. So like I said, pass gas or wind my watch—at that point. So anyhow, I said, "Yes, sir. I remember you, too, sir." And the next thing he said—well, of course people were lined up to walk across the stage—and not many of them would have a conversation with Ernie Harmon. So anyhow, he said, Christie, are you married? And I said, "No, sir." Well, he said, "Get married and be productive!" Yes, sir. And that was—the next time I saw him, he was the president of Norwich University, and he was one of my patients. JP: Oh my gosh. He had Goering's train car? RC: Oh, yeah. He captured it—you know—we had souvenirs. That was one of his souvenirs. He had to travel all over Germany on the railroad. He needed a private car, private engine—whatever. Goering had that in spades. Beautiful train, engine, and had two cars. It was Ernie Harmon's headquarters. JP: Oh my gosh. I've never heard that story. That is priceless. RC: So, that's my Ernie Harmon story. JP: Oh, thank you. That's a good one. Anything else?30 RC: I think I've kind of run out of anecdotes. I, you know, I could come up and talk all day and all night about things that I remember that have happened. But anyhow, that is just skipping on top of some of the highlights. JP: Thank you so much. END OF AUDIO FILE

Abstrak Karya sastra merupakan miniatur dari dunia nyata, dimana sebuah karya sastra biasanya mengungkap beberapa masalah yang berkaitan dengan makhluk hidup termasuk isu-isu tentang hubungan manusia dengan alam. Manusia lebih cenderung melakukan kerusakan pada lingkungan daripada menjaganya, hal ini menyebabkan kehancuran bumi beserta isinya. Hal ini tergambar pada novel The Road karya McCarthy dimana lingkungan yang menjadi setting utamanya hancur berantakan. Lansekapnya tertutup oleh abu yang berterbangan. Dan ketika salju turun, ia berwarna abu-abu. Langitnya juga terlihat gelap. Oleh sebab itu, ada beberapa masalah yang berhubungan dengan kehancuran bumi yang tergambar pada novel yang kemudian memunculkan dua dasar pertanyaan (1) bagaimana kehancuran bumi digambarkan dalam novel The Road karya McCarthy? Dan (2) bagaimana kehancuran bumi memberikan dampak terhadap karakter utama dalam novel The Road karya McCarthy?. Untuk melihat masalah ini perlu teori yang pas yang biasa disebut ecocriticism. Ecocriticism melihat kehancuran bumi sebagai hasil dari tingkah laku manusia terhadap lingkungan misalnya: eksploitasi dan colonialisasi. Seperti yang dikatakan Lawrence Buell bahwa kondisi lingkungan itu ditentukan oleh manusia. Ecocriticism adalah suatu istilah yang berada dibawah payung postcolonialism dimana seorang postcolonialist meyakini bahwa kolonialisasi mempunyai campur tangan dalam penghancuran bumi. Para penjajah merasa percaya diri untuk mengeksploitasi bumi karena dianugrahi kekuatan oleh modernism. Untuk mendapatkan analisis yang jelas, skripsi ini menggunakan metode descriptive quality dimana kualitas data menjadi poin utama daripada jumlah data. Jadi, terlihat jelas bahwa kehancuran bumi terjadi diseluruh lapisan lingkungan; yaitu atmosfer, permukaan tanah, dan laut. Seluruh atmosfer dipenuhi oleh abu, debu dan karbon, tanahnya terkikis, tandus dan gundul, dan lautnya berubah menjadi abu-abu. Kehancuran bumi ini juga memberikan kesuraman tersendiri kepada tokoh si bapak dan si anak. Mereka harus melalui hidup yang keras, susah untuk bernafas, susah untuk menemukan sesuatu yang bisa dimakan dan secara mental mereka selalu takut akan ancaman-ancaman dari kehancuran bumi. Kata Kunci: kehancuran bumi, ecocriticism, postcolonialism, modernism. Abstract Literary work is a miniature of larger world or reality, whereas a literary work reveals some problems related to humans being including issues of human relationships with the environment. Humans tend to do damage to the environment rather than maintaining it, thus it causes devastation of earth. It is reflected in McCarthy's the road where the environment is devastated. The landscape save the ash on the wind, and when the snow falls, it is gray. The sky is also dark. Therefore, there are some problems of knowledge about how the devastation of earth portrays in the novel, which are delivered to two main questions of (1) How is devastation of earth depicted in Cormac McCarthy's The Road? and (2) How does devastation of earth give impacts to the main characters in Cormac McCarthy's The Road?. In case to observe these problems, it needs a suitable theory which called ecocriticism. Ecocriticism sees the devastation of earth as the result of humans' behaviour such as exploitation and colonialism of the environment, as Lawrence Buell says that the condition of the environment is determined by humans. Ecocriticism is under umbrella term of postcolonialism in which postcolonilist believes that colonization has intervention in devastating the earth. Colonizer is encouraged to exploit the nature because of power that is given by modernism. To get a clear analysis, this thesis uses descriptive quality method; it means the quality of the data becomes the reference to work rather than the quantity of the data. Thus, it is seen clearly that devastation of earth happened in the whole layers of environment; atmosphere, land and sea. The atmosphere is occupied by ash, dust and carbon, the land has eroded and barren and the sea have changed into gray. This devastation also gives a misery to the father and the son as the main characters. They have to undergo hard life; hard to breathe, hard to find food and mentally they are haunted by the devastated earth's threatens. Keywords: devastation of earth, ecocriticism, postcolonialism, modernism. INTRODUCTION Humans often feel indifferent toward nature. For them, nature is something considerably as a 'mystic' thing, when it goes right, humans forget it, when it goes wrong, they worry it. People tend to prefer natural environments more than built environments, and built environments with water, trees, and other vegetation more than built environments without such features (Kaplan & Kaplan, 1989). On the other word, humans tend to permit the nature walks down by itself. They seem to just let it flow without thinking how to keep and maintenance the nature. The study of humans' relation with nature which is known as ecology was begun since years ago when humans lived in harmony with the nature. However, in line with development the nature also changes. Unfortunately, this natural changes brings devastation on earth, as Donald Hughes says that looking back to our historical ecology, Humans have related in multiple ways to the Earth's systems; some of these ways promise a sustainable balance with them, while others are destructive (Hughes, 2001: 269). Historically, through devastation of earth Humans have made major changes in their environments. This is happened almost in the whole surface, as Hughes says that devastation of earth has happened in every historical period and in every part of the inhabited Earth (2001: 1). In order to observe those processes of change that affect the relationship, ecologist studies the mutual effects that other species, natural forces, and cycles have on humans, and the actions of humans that affect the web of connections with non-human organisms and entities (id. at 4.). This ecologist's study shows that devastation of earth is the result of humans' behaviour toward environment. This bad behaviour has changed the environment that will bring devastation to the humans themselves. Humans seemingly don't care of the environment. Severity, humans tend to be more destructive. It forces some Ecocritics who concern in literary study and environment in late nineteenth criticized humans' behaviour toward nature. This criticises show how important avoiding that kind of behaviour toward nature which brings devastation of earth merely, it signed that the study of literature which related to the environment has to be discussed. There were in fact some isolated calls for an ecologically oriented criticism during the 1970s (Rigby, vol 2: 2). However, it was not until the end of the twentieth century that the study of literature and the environment was finally recognized as 'a subject on the rise'. In studying of literature, humans ordinarily focus on the relation between humans and others (society) or between humans and themselves (psychology), whereas, the relation between humans and environment actually is tightly connected. Unfortunately, the study of literature which related to the earth was often forgotten, whereas, the study of literature which related to the environment is greatly important. The study of environment is not merely observing of the nature or nonhumans aspect but it tends to study the relation among nature, earth and the humans themselves. Human actually is a part of environmental system, and therefore the environment has the crucial role in humans life in which it is become the main point of literary study. In some respects, it is perhaps not surprising that the study of literary texts should be coupled with such forgetfulness of the earth. Thus it is needed a study of humans' relation and environment. The study of literature and environment got a full attention when modern era begun to destruct the environment. Since last decade ago, especially years ago, humans consciously realized the impacts of their behaviour toward nature, moreover when they become crazier of invention, exploration and exploitation of the nature. Surely, this impact is indirectly causing ecological changes. However, actually what people do about their ecology depend on what they think about themselves in relation to things around them. Human ecology is deeply conditioned by beliefs about our nature and destiny (White 1996, 6). It can be imagined when humans were only thinking about themselves and forgetting the nature or they were just considering their needs without considering the nature needs, it can be ascertained that the nature will vanish and be extinct. This idea or thought about indifference toward nature is criticized by the Ecocritics. Ecocriticism maintains that literature may be approached in a way that examines humans as part of an ecosystem; they are neither master nor slave to it, but simply one part of an intricate system. Literature and environment truly can't be separated each other. Moreover, Lawrence Buell argues in his book The Truth of Ecology as quoted by Dana Philip that literature would be environmental. It would evoke the natural world through verbal surrogates, and would thereby attempt to bond the reader to the world as well as to discourse (Philip, 2003: 7). It can be assumed that through the literary work, the reader will be brought to the environmental world and devastation of earth. Indirectly, literature causes the reader's interpretation of the environment. Thus, it is important to understand the relation between humans and environment through literary work. It needs to notice that ecology is not a slush fund of fact, value, and metaphor, but a less than fully coherent field with a very checkered past and a fairly uncertain future (Philip, 2003: 45). By understanding the relation between humans and environment, it is beneficial to determine the act effectively on the impact of natural destruction and to integrate knowledge and actions. The study of literature and environment works in tandem in determining humans' perception and interpretation toward nature. As Lawrence Buell says that literature and environment studies must make their case for the indispensableness of physical environment as a shaping force in human art and experience, and how such an aesthetic works (2001: 9). It can be assumed that environmental interpretation is a humanistic inquiry. In other word, what people think about nature, and how they have expressed those ideas is what people interpret of the nature. Generally what people expressed the idea of the nature is a Realistic depiction of the world. Thus, it needs a tool to see this depiction. Surely Ecocriticism is a proper tool to see the depiction of the world. Ecocriticism is the most suitable binoculars to telescoped ecological issue and ecological changes in such literary work, as Sheryl Glotfelty (1996: xviii) says that Ecocriticism is the study of the relationship between literature and the physical environment, Ecocriticism takes an earth-centered approach to literary studies. Only Ecocriticicism observes the relation between humans and nonhumans aspects. What Ecocritics do, in short, is attempting to discover nature as absence, silence in texts, and construe environmental representation as a relevant category of literary (Buell, 2005: 30). Ecocriticism encourages the changing of canonisation through entering literary works which carry up natural issue. Ecocriticism ecologically oriented critique of the way in which Nature is constructed in certain canonical texts. Environmental literature constitutes the third way in which Ecocriticism recasts the canon. According to Lawrence Buell (1995, 7-8), an environmentally oriented work should display some characteristics; first, the nonhuman environment is present not merely as a framing device but as a presence that begins to suggest that human history is implicated in natural history. Second, the human interest is not understood to be the only legitimate interest. Third, Human accountability to the environment is part of the text's ethical framework. The last, some sense of the environment as a process rather than as a constant or a given is at least implicit in the text. In such literary work; Cormac McCarthy's The Road the nature as the setting represents ecological changes. Surely, this change causes devastation of earth. Nothing is more miserable on earth but devastation. The world which is the closest place we live at is not convenient again when it was devastated. Thus, literary and environment has interrelation that cannot be separated. Then, it is important to analyze such literary work through Ecocriticism. Ecological issue commonly represented by the presence of natural thing such as; tree, land and also circumstance in the novel which it become the setting. In other word, ecological issue become a centre point of setting. One of great writers in narrating the setting is Cormac McCarthy. Not only known as a king of the setting, McCarthy also has known as famous environmental setting as Addy Haddock (a writer of McCarthy's bibliography) says that his ability to provide eloquent descriptions with smoothly rolling darker undertones and poetically dismal nuances makes him become a writer with powerful setting. Thus, McCarthy is a right author referenced as a study of Ecocriticism. Indirectly, McCarthy's proficient is caused by his settled at a barn near Louisville, Tennessee. All the stones he gathered, all the wood he cut and kiln dried by himself to renovate his small house. Seemingly, McCarthy's life is not far away from the nature. Years later, after marrying fellow student Lee Holleman in 1961, he and she moved to a shack with no heat and running water in the foothills of the Smoky Mountains outside of Knoxville. These experiences of life sharpen his idea toward nature. McCarthy reveals that he is not a fan of authors who do not deal with issues of life and death; it can be assumed that his writing tends to be explored issues of life including devastation of earth. Recalling blithely the months he spent without electricity in a house in Tennessee. Without money, and he had run out of toothpaste and he was wondering what to do when he went to the mailbox and there was a free sample. It made him become more sensitive facing the nature and more respect it. In 2006, McCarthy writes The Road that grants him a change to be interviewed by Oprah Winfrey. Surely, this interview related to his writing especially devastation of earth and won Pulitzer Prize for fiction. McCarthy told Winfrey that related several stories illustrating the degree of outright poverty he endured at times during his career as a writer. He also states that his novel; The Road inspired when he was standing at the window of a hotel in the middle of the night, his son asleep nearby, he started to imagine what El Paso might look like 50 or 100 years in the future. He just had this image of these fires up on the hill. It shows the condition of the nature at the time which the hill was fired up. McCarthy can be categorized as a weird person. People usually gathered with other people who have same hobby or pleasure. However, it doesn't apply for McCarthy. As a writer, he doesn't like to gather with other writer. He would rather hang out with physicists or scientist than other writer. He does not know any writers and much prefers the company of scientists. No doubt if his knowledge of nature is rich. His knowledge of the natural world is vast and includes many of the Latin names of birds and animals. His pleasure gathering with physicists and scientist caused by his interest in science and environment, by absorbing the intelligence scientists, he realizes that in 100 years the human race won't even be recognizable. For him, what physicists did in the 20th century was one of the extraordinary flowerings ever in the human enterprise, which would much prefer to befriend a scientist than another writer. Most of McCarthy's novels are portraying about life or reality which many of them associated to ecological issue. In 1985, Blood Meridian was published. Blood Meridian portrays the desolate and indifferent 1850s Texas-Mexico borderlands. The extreme violence which takes place comments implicitly on both the environment and human nature. The novel's full title- Blood Meridian, or The Evening Redness In The West- is indicative of the novel's portrayal of the environment. A relationship between location, nature and violence is created in the symbolism of the sun as a "blood meridian". To call McCarthy's environments as constructed in Blood Meridian simply violent is an unsatisfactory conclusion. What is more appropriate and evident in the text is that man is inherently violent and the indifference of nature to this creates an amoral setting. In 1979, McCarthy published his fourth novel, Suttree. In short, Suttree tells the reader about a man named Cornelius Suttree, a fisherman, disillusioned scholar, alcoholic, nihilist, existentialist and transcendentalist. The attention to detail identified earlier in Suttree is telling in terms of his relationship with his environment. Generally, to an Ecocritical reading Suttree shows that, stripped of societal anthropocentrism, man is forced to reassess his relationship with nature. It could be said that McCarthy's prose style is often atavistic (anti-civilization, anti-materialism, anti-industrialism, anti-progress and pro-Nature) in that it both reflects natural processes and often appears primitive, stripped of culture. In 1973, Child of God was published. It was inspired by actual events in Sevier County. Child of God begins with Lester Ballard's dispossession from his parent's house. McCarthy's description of Ballard's lone nomadic wandering after he inadvertently burns down his squat uses the same free indirect discourse. Child of God can also be described as an existential text, particularly for the authenticity of its protagonist. Lester Ballard's atavistic tendencies bring him closer to an animalistic level. From those all of McCarthy's novels, The Road which was published in 2006 by Vintage book publisher is the most representative novel which is related to the study of Ecocriticism. The novel is generally thick of environments' issue. The issue for instance is the fire of woods that happened along the country which give the reader an image of burned land, ash and dust everywhere and so on. Because of this reason, the writer felt that The Road is interested to be analyzed through ecological critics. In short, the novel portrays a journey of father and son as the main character in a burned land in America. The issue of devastation of earth becomes the centre point of interest which grasps the whole setting of the novel. The Road brings the readers onto 'the future' in as much as it is set in a time after an ambiguous 'end' has occurred and society has collapsed. The reverse of the most recent reissue claims that it is the first great masterpiece of the globally warmed generation. It is also the first of McCarthy's novels to have provoked Ecocritical study. This wide appeal to the novel relies strongly on its environmental themes. The use of allusion to genre and form elsewhere in McCarthy's novels can be said to universalise his appeal but in The Road the key concern is the 21st century's most immediate global problem; the irrevocable damage global industrial capitalism is doing to our environment. It is difficult to read The Road without feeling the overwhelming cumulative force of the novel's desolation, and this desolation is most prominently present in the landscapes McCarthy portrays. The setting is almost entirely bereft of life; the little that is found is often malign humanity. The Road greatly represents a study of Ecocriticism. It portrays the colourless world because of devastation of earth. This devastation issue is common object of the Ecocriticism study. The Road continually reminds us of the bleakness of the landscape in the earth. As readers, we only experience bright colours through the characters' dreams or memories, if someone happens to bruise or bleed, or through fire or flare guns. The rest of the time we see a gray ash covering the landscape. As a reality, our landscape is actually green and natural. However, The Road shows the possibility of devastation of earth when humans did devastation to the nature and they can't live in harmony with the nature. Therefore, there is no doubt that The Road becomes the most influencing novel toward environment. It proves from the acclaim written in the novel by George Monbiot, an environmental campaigner that says "It could be the most important environmental book ever. It is a thought experiment that imagines a world without a biosphere, and shows that everything we value depends on the ecosystem." According to the brief story in background of the study that gives perception about the devastation of earth in the novel, it appears two questions as the problems: 1. How is devastation of earth depicted in Cormac McCarthy's The Road? 2. How does devastation of earth give impacts to the main characters in Cormac McCarthy's The Road? METHOD The used method is descriptive quality; it means the quality of the data becomes the reference to work rather than the quantity of the data. Besides, a technique is needed to understand the data. Technique of interpretation must be used to interpret and analyze the data. Through interpretation the analysis can be worked. Interpretation is a crucial step that has to do before analyzing the data. Then, extrinsic approach is used as an approach toward the analysis in which environment belongs to it. According to method above, the first thing that has to do is collecting data. In collecting data this research focuses on reading and documentation. Reading novel. In this step, novel becomes the object of the research. The novel is entitled The Road, written by Cormac McCarthy. To collect the correctly data, it needs reading more than once, because to get interpretation, it needs understanding all contents completely with all possibilities both intrinsically and extrinsically. Inventorying data. This step is collecting data through noting the quotations related to the statement of the problems and objectives of the study, it is including in words, sentences, and discourse that can represent devastation of earth in Cormac McCarthy's The Road. Thus, all data that will be analyzed are started and sourced through the novel's contents. Classification data. It is appropriate to the statements of the problems about devastation of earth in Cormac McCarthy's The Road. Tabling the data. It is to simplify reading the data and classify data that is used in the analysis for the readers. Continuously, the selected data or the collected data, which are related to the statements of the problems and the objectives, are analyzed through Ecocriticism in depicting the devastation of earth and its impacts to the main characters in Cormac McCarthy's The Road. MODERNISM The word "modern" closely means to up-to-date, abreast of the times, and going beyond the past in more than a temporally or chronologically literal sense (Greenberg, 1979; 2). Marshall Breman as quoted Jan Rada defines modernism as a trend of thought that affirms the power of human being to create, improve, and reshape their environment, with the aid of scientific knowledge technology and practical experimentation (2008; 6). Breman then argues that modernism is as any attempt by modern men and women to become subjects as well as objects of modernization, to be modern is to find ourselves in an environment that promises us adventure, power, joy, growth, transformation of ourselves and the world-and, at the same time, that threatens to destroy everything we have, everything we know, everything we are (Berman, 1982; 5; 14). The development of modernism emerged two poles that confront each other; science and technology and natural degradation. As Helena J. Keler explanation that the image of 'creative destruction' is very important to understanding modernity precisely because it derived from the particular dilemmas that faced the implementation of the modernist project. This destruction of a holistic universe in the modern era shatters the conception of human beings and societies as total entities, instead inaugurating an era characterized by a never-ending process of internal ruptures and fragmentations within itself (Keler, 2005: 4). According to Horkheimer and Adorno as quoted by Helena, modern capitalist society is engaged in a pattern of domination: the domination of nature by human beings, domination of nature within human beings, and this system of domination is driven by fear of the human and nonhuman unknown the Other (Keler, 2005: 3). Movement of modernism manifests itself in the self-destructive nature of symbolism: when pushed to its logical extreme, the symbolist aesthetic starts to forgo any notion of an organic, necessary relationship between signifier and signified, and simply imposes a particular motif as an arbitrary symbol of something else (Hutchinson, 2011; 58). Modernism often demonstrates the destructive rather than constructive nature. Modernists argue that the ecologically destructive projects are not viable because of climate change but modernism movement (Johnston, 2012: 207). Specifically, Barbara Rose Johnston states that Human conduct that contributes to the destruction of our ecological balance. Such interpretations of environmental change, however, can have undesirable effect of deflecting responsibility, since blame is placed on a cycle of time about which a person can do nothing (Johnston, 2012: 212). Global environmental change, which spans natural sciences, policy and development studies, is currently experiencing its first waves. Perhaps it is time to recognize that already some people are getting their feet wet. On what criteria should one decide to retreat to higher ground or stick it out unmoved until the tide turns. Modernism challenges the modern project of understanding global environmental change and doing something about it when it causes problems (Blaikie, 1996: 81). According to Piers M. Blaikie, modernism First, it challenges all embracing world views or 'meta narratives' which tend to be highly teleological and assume the validity of their underlying assumptions and their claims. Thus, the role of environmental scientists in policy making as 'talking truth to power' and as the only rational and legitimate brokers between the 'real' environment and the rest of us, is rejected. Second, it challenges the tendency that is more pronounced in areas of global environmental change where the local hands on experience of the environment (land degradation, desertification and biodiversity). Third, it challenged that reality is socially constructed. An epistemology which builds models of society and environment with causal connections is challenged by one which is constituted as a series of descriptive accounts according to different actors' perceptions (Blaikie, 1996: 81). Modernism encourages people and countries to over-exploit natural resources, and contribute to reductions in spending on social and environmental welfare (Huckle, 1999: 36). Moreover, environmental reductions being blamed on the impact of foreign cultural domination this has allegedly eroded and damaged the 'essential harmony' between humans and nature (Mawdsley, 2001: 96). Evernden contends that the second instrumental vision of control and domination over nature is the historical product of modernity, more specifically of Renaissance, when a new mode of knowledge, based on reason and experimentation replaced the medieval search for knowledge as contemplation and wisdom (1992). This argument is supported that Modernity is thus responsible for creating Nature by abstracting from nature, and with it a whole history of conquest and domination comes to be enacted. In the words of C. S. Lewis: "We reduce things to mere Nature in order that we may "conquer" them. We are always conquering Nature because "Nature" is the name for what we have, to some extent, conquered" (Lewis, 1978: 42). Latest, Environmental problems and other risks encompass less than the globally catastrophic. More and more disaster experts, development agencies, and citizens' groups are supporting that the globalisation is largely responsible for such human misery (Huckle, 1999: 36). Modernism signed by the development science and technology (Somerville, 2006: 17-18). Further, given the increasing production by technologically advanced capitalism of risks that threaten us all ironically that technology induced catastrophes and environmental disasters (Simon Cottle, 1998: 8). Since the Enlightenment, technology, especially science-based technology, has offered the promise of a better world through the elimination of disease and material improvements to standards of living. On the other hand, resource extraction, emissions of dangerous materials, and pollution of air, water, and soil have created conditions for unprecedented environmental catastrophe and have already caused irreversible damage to the biosphere (Vergragt, 2006: 7). Ironically, the persisting contradictions between a better life created and supported by technology for the wealthy few, also caused the increasing environmental degradation and persistent poverty for the vast majority calls for a deeper exploration and understanding of the nature. Philip J. Vergragt then, states that technology will support and enhance a "good life" for all of its citizens, in both rich and presently poor countries, without compromising the Earth's ecosystem or the prospects of later generations (Vergragt, 2006: 8). Thus, science and technology which shaped to the sophistication give man a power to colonize the earth. POSTCOLONIALISM Environmentalism in post-colonial discourse has its beginnings in Alfred Crosby's account of the impact of European incursions into the Americas and the Pacific (Ashcroft, 2000: 71). This incursion of course destructs not only the country; physical building and ideology but also the environment and nature. The conquest and colonization of so many extra-European environments produced irreversible changes in land use, in flora and fauna and frequently damaged beyond repair traditionally balanced relations between indigenous communities and their environments, a relationship unlike that of their conquerors crucial to their understanding of their 'being' as of the land rather than merely on it (Ashcroft, 2000: 71-72). He adds that imperial incursions and colonization have been regarded as environmentally destructive, yet as Richard Grove argues, the perception of what had already been lost in Europe, the sense of intrinsic connection between the 'more-than-human' and the human, and thus the urgency of environmental preservation became strikingly evident in Europe's colonies, particularly in the late nineteenth century. Much environmentalism in theory and practice has emanated from former imperial centres such as Europe and the United States. While belated recognition of the crucial importance of other forms of life on earth is both welcome and necessary, its export and sometimes imposition on postcolonized cultures invites the obvious charge of hypocrisy and generates resentment against former imperial states which having degraded their own and their colonies' environments in the 'interests' of progress and 'development' now encourage (or impose) the theory and practices of environmental preservation on other peoples (Ashcroft, 2000: 72). This also frequently creates division within post-colonized cultures themselves, where, for instance, peoples are moved off their traditional lands to make way for game parks, essentially for the benefit of wealthy tourists. Demands for the 'global' preservation of endangered species frequently clash with the policies of post-colonized governments eager to use their regained environmental sovereignty in the interests of a modern capitalism from which it is difficult for them to escape. Devastation of earth has highlighted how human–environmental vulnerabilities are amplified not only by anthropogenic climate change but also by the capitalist exploitation of natural resources (Carrigan, 2005: 1). Harmful environmental conduct exposes several broader dimensions such as the nation's ability to use its resources as determined by domestic political processes, such as; it changes the natural forest microclimates that have been transformed into new microclimates increasing sunlight and lowering humidity (Nazzal, 2005: 6). The ecological crisis is not merely an isolated event but has its roots in the modern materialistic civilization that makes man becomes the butcher of earth (Huggan and Tiffin, 2010: 1). They argue that one way out of this morass is to insist that the proper subject of postcolonialism is colonialism, and to look accordingly for colonial/imperial underpinnings of environmental practices in both colonising and colonised societies of the present and the past (Huggan and Tiffin, 2010: 3) Colonialism greatly changed the environmental condition of colonized country. Alfred W. Crosby (Crosby 1986) as quoted by Aschroft describes the ways in which the environments of colonized societies have been physically transformed by the experience of colonial occupation, imperialism/colonialism not only altered the cultural, political and social structures of colonized societies, but also devastated colonial ecologies and traditional subsistence patterns (Ashcroft, 2000: 69). Indirectly, colonization influences ecological changes in the past which cause ecological destruction in the present day. More importantly, based on Crosby statement in Aschroft explain that introduced crops and livestock not between colonizer and colonized country only supported conquering armies and colonizing populations, radically colonizer altered the entire ecology of the invaded lands in ways that necessarily disadvantaged indigenous peoples and annihilated or endangered native flora and fauna (2000: 69). Arguably this has led to one of the most profound ecological changes the world has seen. Colonization or colonialism can be defined as the conquest and control of other people's land and goods (Loomba, 2005: 8). Colonialism means a conquest which is done by the west or European and American country toward Asia and Africa by exploitation the land, surely it causes natural destruction. Elleke Boehmer has defined colonialism as the settlement of territory, the exploitation or development of resources, and attempts to govern the indigenous inhabitants of occupied lands (Boehmer as qtd. in McLeod 2000: 8). The term colonialism is important in defining the specific form of natural exploitation that developed with the expansion of Europe over the last 400 years (Ashcroft, 2000: 40). With the end of the cold war, global infatuation with neoliberal economics has intensified the peripheralization of the South along economic, political, social, cultural and natural lines (Geeta Chowdhry and Sheila Nair, 2002: 1). Postcolonial critique bears witness to those countries and communities - in the North and the South (Bhabha, 1994: 6). The assumption of postcolonial studies is that many of the wrongs, if not crimes, against nature are a product of the economic dominance of the north over the south (Young, 2001: 6). Thus, the Norh represents the West and the South represents the East. Postcolonialism sees the natural destruction on the South as the impacts of colonization The northern environmentalism considered as the rich (always potentially vainglorious and hypocritical) and the southern environmentalism considered as the poor (often genuinely heroic and authentic) (huggan and Tiffin, 2010: 2). However, northern needs of the natural need were supplied from the south in the name of colonization. Colonialism granted imperial powers the rights to arrogate and exploit the territory of a subject people as well as to appropriate unlimited property rights, post-colonial states acted quickly to regain control over their natural resources both through expropriation of foreign property interests and through the legal arena (Nazzal, 2005: 10). Colonialism, through both practice and discourse, has separated man from his natural surroundings and has given him a false idea about the meaning of nature: on the contrary, nature is not there to be plundered, but to be cared for, tended and made to yield its produce. Then, Man is ennobled by the relationship with the environment, by his power to make things grow and watch over their growth, but the reverse also holds true: devastation returns man to his primitive condition. It is not surprising when the the nature did reverse destruction to the humans. It is the result of what they do exploit to the nature. On the other world, man as the colonizer has colonized the earth which caused the devastation of earth. (Chrisman and Williams, 1994: 1–20). Thus, postcolonialism can be considered as umbrella term of ecocriticism in which it criticizes the relation between human and nature including criticizing humans' behaviour precisely humans' exploitation toward nature. ECOCRITICISM Humans truly can't be separated with environment. human beings are engaged in the eternal search for connection, for that which connects us to others and for that which connects us to ourselves, culture, language, history, belief systems, social practice, and other influences on human development are as much a part of place as the physical landscape one crosses (Dreese, 2002; 2-3). She emphasizes that environmental factors play a crucial role in the physical, emotional, and even spiritual configurations that determine our ideas of who we are. All human beings develop their own sense of place through life that determines why they love certain regions or feel utterly alien in others. The study of relations between humans and environment called ecology. Lawrence Buell defines ecology as the study of the interactions between organisms and the environment (Buell, 2005; 139). Meanwhile, Glen A Love defines ecology as not as merely a study of the relationship between organisms and their living and nonliving environment but also a combination of science and a sense of responsibility for life (2003; 37-38). Ecology as Lawrence Buell say above is drawn in the life circle; the life processes of many organisms put into their surroundings environment whose presence of other organism affects the life processes of these and other organisms sharing the same environment. When these processes are cut by such destruction, e.g. chemical by-products of the life processes of one species (or occupational group) are harmful to another species; the relationship between the two species is "antagonistic." Increased population density increases the probability of antagonistic interactions (Catton, 1994: 80). It is essential to be aware of the environmental damage which caused by ecological changes. The development of humans' ecology slowly damages the environment. The ecology of human development involves the scientific study of the progressive, mutual accommodation between an active, growing human being and the changing properties of the immediate settings (Bronfenbrenner, 1979: 21). Imbalance fine relations between humans and environment emerged a critic called ecocritic or ecocriticism (Buell, 2005; 2). John Elder as quoted by Dana Philip says that The science of ecology confirms the indivisibility of natural process: each feature of a landscape must be understood with reference to the whole, just as the habits of each creature reflect, and depend upon, the community of life around it (1999; 581). Ecology when it counts as science tends to be a lot more reductive, thus many of the core concepts of ecology once notable for their expansiveness have in recent years been cut down to size, made more particular, or abandoned altogether. It now appears that even the ecosystem concept may not be valid biologically, but valid concept or not, an ecosystem is primarily a theoretical entity, and therefore could never be the reality that somehow underwrites poetry, even if that poetry is of the good old-fashioned, supposedly "organic" sort (Philip, 1999; 582). By that kind of reason, Elder argues that culture too may be understood organically: it is the field of relationship between organisms and, as such, a complex organism in its own right (Philip, 1999; 582). Ecology is not merely bound to science and technology, but also moral and politic. Greg Garrard assumes that ecology itself is shifting and contested, the emphasis on the moral and political orientation of the ecocritic and the broad specification of the field of study are essential (2004; 4). Problems of ecology are features of our society, arising out of our dealings with nature, from which we should like to free ourselves, and which we do not regard as inevitable consequences of what is good in that society (Garrard, 2004; 5). Lynn white, Jr argues in his article on Cheryll Glotfelty's The Ecocriticism reader: landmark in literary ecology that environmental crisis is fundamentally a matter of the beliefs and values that direct science and technology and dominating attitude toward nature (1996; 4). Discoveries in ecology and cellular biology revolutionize our sense of self, teaching us that there is no such thing as an individual, only an individual-in-context (Neil Evernden, 1996; 93). Discoveries of course get much of invention. Unconsciously, humans' behaviour (ex: exploitation) toward environment was changed. Industrial Revolution affected humanity's conception of its relationship to nature, warning that technology has created the false illusion that we control nature, allowing us to forget that our "unconquerable minds" are vitally dependent upon natural support systems (Harold Fromm, 1996; 31) Ecocritic or Ecocriticism is an umbrella term, used to refer to the environmentally oriented study of literature and (less often) the arts more generally, and to the theories that underlie such critical practice (Buell, 2005; 138). Cheryll Glotfelty simply writes the definition, ecocriticism is the study of the relationship between literature and the physical environment, ecocriticism takes an earth-centered approach to literary studies (1996: xviii). Ecocriticism might succinctly be defined as study of the relation between literature and environment conducted in a spirit of commitment to environmental praxis (Lawrence Buell as quoted by Dana Philip, 1999; 583). Ecocriticism is, then, an avowedly political mode of analysis, ecocritics generally tie their cultural analyses explicitly to a 'green' moral and political agenda. In this respect, ecocriticism is closely related to environmentally oriented developments in philosophy and political theory (Greg Garrard, 2004; 3) Ecocentrism is more compelling as a call to fellow humans to recognize the intractable, like-it-or-not interdependence that subsists between the human and the nonhuman and to tread more lightly on the earth than it is as a practical program (Lawrence Buell, 2005, 102). Ecological criticism shares the fundamental premise that human culture is connected to the physical world, affecting it and affected by it. Ecocriticism takes as its subject the interconnections between nature and culture, specifically the cultural artefacts of language and literature (Cheryll Glotfelty, 1996; xix). The majority of ecocritics, whether or not they theorize their positions, look upon their texts of reference as refractions of physical environments and human interaction with those environments, notwithstanding the artifactual properties of textual representation and their mediation by ideological and other socio-historical factors (Lawrence Buell , 2005; 30). Literary theory, in general, examines the relations between writers, texts, and the world. In most literary theory "the world" is synonymous with society-the social sphere. Ecocriticism expands the notion of "the world" to include the entire ecosphere or nonhuman, which is physical environment. Several things that have to be seen are: • Transforming this concept becomes social movement that will bring the humans into conscious of the equality between human and their environment and doesn't consider the nature into binary opposition between dominate and dominated. • Ecocriticism encourages the changing of canonisation through entering literary works which carry up natural issue. • Ecocriticism is not only an approach but also a pendadogis tool. • Ecocriticism connects the literary study with the earth to see how is the relation between humans and earth where they stand (Cheryll Glotfelty, 1996, xxii) The majority of ecocritics, whether or not they theorize their positions, look upon their texts of reference as refractions of physical environments and human interaction with those environments, notwithstanding the artifactual properties of textual representation and their mediation by ideological and other sociohistorical factors (Buell, 2005; 30). It can be assumed that Ecocrtiticism sees the text as the refraction of physical environment. Another denigrates attempts to recuperate realism as restricting the field of environmental writing, as ludicrously foreshortened in focus ("its practitioners . . . reduced to an umpire's role, squinting to see if a given depiction of a horizon, a wildflower, or a live oak tree is itself well painted and lively"), and in any case bogus, since "mimesis presumes the sameness of the representation and the represented object" (Phillips 2003: 163–4, 175). Buell has added that this is a conviction that contact (or lack ofcontact) with actual environments is intimately linked, even if not on a one-to-one basis, with the work of environmental imagination, for both writer and critic (Buell, 2005; 31). Ecocriticism can explore what we can call a discursively manipulated nonhuman world in literature, and discuss how it gets marginalized or silenced by, or incorporated into the human language (Legler, I997: 227). Nonhuman environment must be represented as an active presence and player within the text made some astute readers inclined to be sympathetic of the environment (Buell, 2005: 51). The task of ecocriticism, then, is to formulate a conceptual foundation for the study of interconnections between literature and the environment. Literature can be perceived as an aesthetically and culturally constructed part of the environment, since it directly addresses the questions of human constructions, such as meaning, value, language, and imagination, which can, then, be linked to the problem of ecological consciousness that humans need to attain. Within this framework, ecocritics are mainly concerned with how literature transmits certain values contributing to ecological thinking (Glotfelty, 1996: xxi). Ecocriticism offers researcher a way how to analyze such literary work through three steps. First is seeing the representation of nonhuman aspect. This first step is looking how is the nature like rice field, village, wilderness, forest, sea, beach, hill, mountain, valley, river, animal (or treatment toward animal) and city environment pictured in the text. Second is seeing the accusation toward ecology issues. The second step destructs how the natural issue is portrayed with the different way. For instance, the nature is pictured as an inconvenient place again for humans because of the emergence the new value; technology, capitalism, extinction of local knowledge, and development of building which is not oriented to the environment. Last is taking part of text's ideology. In this case examines the relations between writers, texts, and the world. This third step is seeing and taking part of the ideology that contains in the text. How the author's view and commitment toward the nature (Cheryll Glotfelty, 1996, xix). DEVASTATION OF EARTH Those all theories mentioned above are related to the word "devastation" which happened on earth. Modernism granted colonizer a power to devastate the earth in which postcolonialism and ecocriticism tend to criticize that devastation. Certainly, what is actually the meaning of devastation of earth? The word "devastation" itself according to Merriam-Webster dictionary means the state or fact of being rendered nonexistent, physically unsound, or useless. In other word, devastation is deterioration, destruction, vanishing of the earth through depletion of resources such as air, water and soil. Devastation of earth can be defined as a destruction of ecosystems and the extinction of wildlife. Devastation of earth is a term used to describe a situation in which a part of the natural environment (the earth) is devastated or damaged. According to Shakhashiri, earth is areas of land as distinguished from sea and air (2011: 1). It means that the earth is composed by three parts; land, sea and air. Thus, it can be ascertained that if the devastation happened on earth, it will strike those all of earth's parts. The devastation which strikes the air will harm the condition of air in the atmosphere or known as devastated atmosphere, devastation which strikes the land will harm the condition of the soil and change it into erode and barren, and devastation which strike the water will contaminate the clean water into the dirty one. The earth as mentioned above that composed from three parts; certainly those each parts have a role. Land is the surface of the earth where the creatures are growing and developing; the plantations (trees) grow well, the animals breed and the humans dwell the life. Air is the mixture of gases which surrounds the Earth in which it contains a lot of vital substances such as oxygen and ozone. And water is a clear liquid, without colour or taste, which falls from the sky as rain and is necessary for animal and plant even human life. Water is also available in the river and sea. All of those parts of the earth greatly have advantage when it states in the normal/natural condition. However, when it was devastated, the earth turns into less natural and more miserable. That is the picture of the devastation of earth. DEPICTION OF DEVASTATION OF EARTH The devastation of earth as Hughes says has happened in every historical period and in every part of the inhabited Earth (2001: 1). It means that devastation of earth happened in the whole surface of the earth. Devastation has stroked the whole environment; atmosphere, land, and sea. Postcolonialism argues that colonialism has an intervention on devastating the earth. Colonialism has devastated the earth as Ashcroft says that the conquest and colonization of so many extra-European environments produced irreversible changes in land use, in flora and fauna and frequently damaged beyond repair traditionally balanced relations between indigenous communities and their environments (2000: 71-72). He adds that imperial incursions and colonization have been regarded as environmentally destructive. Devastation of earth happened over earth. It means that devastation happened on land, atmosphere and sea. The land has changed into gullied, eroded and barren. This changing surely as the impact of devastation of earth which is done by the colonizer in colonizing the land. Everything which stands on the land has changed, There was no reborn flora and fauna in McCarthy's The Road. However, the presence of the flora and fauna is the rest of the previous world. Indeed these flora and fauna have changed as the impact of colonialism. Flora in McCarthy's The Road is dominated by the trees. However, most of the trees have changed into gray, dark and black. It is so pathetic when the father and his son faced the standing black trees and they realized that it changes. Horribly, it seems like ghost of trees. The changing of the trees is not underlined on the changes of its colour but also its presence. It means that the trees are not only changing into dark and black with its standing but also there are many trees which die and fall to the ground. The changes of fauna can be seen when the father and his son was camp in the forest and listening for any sound, it draws that the bird has changed its behaviour by holding migratory to circle the earth. The birds can no longer life in harmony with the environment by occupying the forest. It is caused the changing of trees which turn into dead. Thus, it forces the birds to change themselves. Other fauna changing draws when the father who found an odor of cows. However, the cows are extinct since years ago. He asked to himself whether the cows are really real or not. He finally realized that it is extinct. It shows that the cows are changed from the presence to absence. The burning of a certain thing; such as the trees, surely produces a residue or combustion. It can be carbon and ash. It can be imagined how large the amount of ash will be produced if the whole land of forest were burned. Certainly, the ash will cover everything that has seen. A horrible fire of forest has produced a horrible ash too till everything is covered by ash. The ash has moved along the wind till it covered the city and everything in the city, The fire of forest makes the amount of ash become uncontrolled. The moving of ash filled the air and atmosphere in which it makes everything coloured covered by ash and dust. Hence, everything becomes colourless. The ash changes the landscape become gray. It can be assumed that the graying landscape is no other causing by the moving ash. The occupying of ash in the atmosphere makes the day become unseen and dark. The result of the residual combustion is not ashes merely, but also carbons that harm the environment. Ash and carbon both fill and occupy the atmosphere. As the greenhouse effect idea, that the ash and carbon also dust which in a large amount and uncontrolled in atmosphere will form a mantle which wrapped out the whole of earth. This causes our sight of the sky become dark and gray.The sky and cloud are devoured with ash. The cloud becomes ashen and gray. Severity, the ash and carbon have contaminated everything in the air including the sea water vapor. Then, the result is clouds of ash. Ash and dust have affected the form of the cloud to become gray. Probably its content has been also affected. When the clouds changes into gray, it can be predicted that the rainwater which come down from the clouds will also be gray. It is supported with the presence of the ash mantle that wrapped up the earth. Certainly, everything which come down from the sky; rainwater has to pass this mantle, consequently the rain water will be coloured as gray by the ash mantle. The ash mantle has coloured the rain water. The rainwater which drips down to the earth is seen as the gray sheets of rain. Rainwater that is usually used by humans to fulfil their needs such as to irrigate the fields has been contaminated by ash and carbon so that its contents no longer can be used for the benefit of man. Consequently, there will be no crops and there will be no natural food. Mantle of ash has blanketed the earth during the unknown time. As described above that everything which fell from the sky will pass this mantle so that everything will be contaminated by it. The result, everything which fell will be gray. After several days the father and his son watched the gray sheets of rain, the weather quickly changes into snowy. Everyone knows as it has seen that snow is falling from the sky. The snow actually is similar to the rain, including their formed and their fell. The sea water vapor which is formed into cloud in the sky will fall as the rainwater, however, because of the extreme/cold weather, the rain water freeze into ice and it changes into snow that is white and soft. This falling snow of course has to pass the mantle of ash and it changes into gray. The next devastation of earth is turned to everything which lay on the surface of the earth covered by darkness as the ash effect. Everything stands in the earth turned to be black such as the dead trees which burned by fire forest, and the rain water and snow which fell as gray turn into black in the land. The dead trees which burned by fire forest surely create a black view of trees. The trees which burned in incompletely will make an appearance of burnt and black trees. The rainwater and snow which are grey in their falling turned to be black in the land. The large number of those rainwater and snow gathered as one in the ground create a new colour, more intense and black. The gray flakes which fell down turned to the dark slush. Dark slush can be assumed as the slush which is thicker than a flake. Thus, the slush which is as the result of flakes changes into black. It is also applied in the rainwater; the water in the land is not the whole from the rainwater, some from the river and so on. However, the thick rainwater which fell down in gray proved that its water is dominated to black water. the slush which is melted flows through the ash and turned to the black water. THE IMPACTS OF DEVASTATION OF EARTH ON FATHER'S ATTITUDE Living and dwelling in such devastated earth surely give impacts to the humans who walk over it. The father and his son reveal those kinds of impacts. The father who lived before and after unknown disaster seems undergoing a lot of impacts. It is different with his son who born after that disaster. He tends to be innocent, only watch and observe what his father did. There was an idea to end the life when the father still lived with his woman. She always forces him to end their life because there was nothing else to do in the ruined world. However, the father keep his believe that humans have to struggle. The experience of dwelling the life before the unknown disaster made him stronger. The father realized that what the environment did to him is the result what the humans did to the environment, as Lawrence Buell says that human culture is connected to the physical world; nature and environment, affecting it and affected by it. In other word, humans have affected the environment and have been affected by environment. The woman forces him because they lived in unusual life, they lived like zombie. The devastation of earth causes their life as like as zombie or walking dead in a horror film which the father and his son have a role as the victims. They have to avoid even to face the zombie to keep alive. Dwelling the life in such devastated earth; the air was filled by the ash and dust forces them to wear a mask. The devastated earth; unfriendly air forces him to wear mask (canister mask) and even wear biohazard suit. As the affection of the devastated earth, the father and his son have to worry their life, Mostly he worried about their shoes. Worrying is something that the father in his son has to do. There is no certainty living in such ruined world. It is a common thing for them to worry anytime, worrying of food and shoes. Food is essential thing to keep alive. It is the reason why they worry of food. If they can't find some foods, it means they will die. The shoes are important stuff to hold a journey. As explain before that the weather extremely changes a while. Few days were raining, and another was snowing. Shoes keep the father in his son feet to keep away from coldness and freezing which can take their life. The weather is extremely cold. It is not surprising that the weather turns to colder and colder. The weather has changed anytime; sometime it rains and often snow. The coldness of weather doesn't only force them to eat the food that already fermented as above but also threaten their life. The coldness is very extremely danger for them. Moreover it is pictured that the cold can crack the stone and takes their life off. In such condition surely makes them hard to breathe because in the coldness the air contains thin oxygen. Dwelling the life in such devastated earth actually makes him aware of surrounding even the weather. The sounds like forest fire, fallen trees, and so on makes his ears disturbed and consequently he has to keep awake. Living in such devastated earth makes him to be more aware toward everything that threatens them. The father and his son have experienced many kinds of problems. Everything that happened to him does not break his spirit to keep alive even when they are in starving. He always believes that he would find something to eat. the father always optimistic dwelling life. the devastated earth makes him become more optimistic. Struggle is a must to do to find another thing to be eaten to keep the life. Keep trying is the key for the good guys who living in the ruined environment. By keeping trying, they can survive dwelling the life in such environment. Keep trying is not enough to live in such devastated earth. Always suspect the possibility that may happen has to be done, because no one knows what will happen, but the threat of nature always happen all the time. Thus, another thing that has to do is to remain vigilant about the environment. The devastated earth forces him to become "cautious, watchful" and always "on the lookout". He believes that no one expect a trouble. However, living in the devastated earth, the thing that has to do is to always expect it. Thus he was always wary of something bad that may happen. Nothing can be expected from the nature. The father always believed it. He no longer agrees if people prepare something for tomorrow. Although he always optimistic of what he did, he never believed it. For him, even though he's preparing for tomorrow, he doesn't believe that the nature will prepare for him. What the father believes that is now or tomorrow is the same. This belief keeps the father spirit to face his following days. As a father he would often feel the pain. Physically, he is ill of facing the devastated earth. And mentally, he is ill of the feeling of bearing the responsibility as a father who is responsible for the survival of his son and his own life. However nature should never take the life of his son. He would bet his life for the life of his son. Often he complains to himself about his illness. He pretends as tough man in front his son but actually he felt tremendous pain. It's just that he does not want his son to know. THE IMPACTS OF DEVASTATION OF EARTH ON SON'S ATTITUDE Being born in the devastated earth which the unknown disaster has swept it surely affects the son's behaviour toward environment. The greyscale image of environment has saved well in his mind that forces him to expect something else, something in colour. When they continue their journey, the son had found some crayons. These crayons change his mind that something left on earth in colour. Thus, environment is not filling of gray merely. The crayons seem like a hope for

Transcript of an oral history interview with Dr. Carlos F. A. Pinkham, conducted by Jennifer Payne at Norwich University in Northfield, Vermont, on 9 January 2014, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Carlos Frank Armory Pinkham graduated from Norwich University in 1965 and later returned to the campus to teach in the College of Math and Sciences. His interview includes many details of his academic career as well as recollections from his military service and family history. ; 1 Carlos Frank Amory Pinkham, NU '65, Oral History Interview January 9, 2014 Interviewed by Jennifer Payne CARL PINKHAM: Vermont. JENNIFER PAYNE: And your (inaudible) [00:00:02] class? CP: Nineteen sixty-five. JP: Ah, did you have a nickname at Norwich? CP: Not really, no. JP: No? The yearbook has you as Pink, but I imagine -- CP: Oh, yeah, Pink is -- Pink is -- if anybody used a nickname it was Pink. Yeah, mm-hmm. JP: Oh, what made you decide to choose Norwich? CP: It was very easy. My father taught here, and so as a poor university professor this is the only place he could afford to send me (laughs) because I got tuition free. JP: What was his name and what did he do? CP: Vernon Curtis David Pinkham. So, again, four names. It's a tradition in our family. JP: What did he teach? CP: He taught economics. JP: So, you came to Norwich pretty much straight out of high school. CP: Yes. JP: And were you interested in science then? CP: I have been interested in biology ever since I was able to think. So, I knew when I came here what I wanted to do. I knew what I wanted to do when I was a kid. JP: Really? CP: Yeah. I wanted to get a doctorate in biology. At the time that I came here I wasn't sure what field in biology. It was really a choice between evolution and marine biology, but I knew that I wanted to do that.2 JP: Wow. So who was your roommate when you got here? CP: Oh, boy, when I got here -- I don't remember. I do know that he never finished and I don't remember his name. JP: Do you remember any of your roommates? CP: Sure, Joe [Koons?] [00:01:50] was my sophomore year roommate and he never finished, and then Don Graves was my roommate in my junior year; he did finish. And Bob Priestly was my roommate in my senior year. JP: No kidding? CP: Yeah. JP: That's great. Now I know you've looked at these questions. Is there anything in particular that you want to focus on or start with? CP: No, not really. Just go ahead and fire away and we'll progress as ever we can. JP: Yes, OK. Your activities when you were here were humongous. You were in everything. You were corporal, master sergeant, correct? Major biology -- you were in the biology club, one, two, three, four president -- president twice; geology club, one, two, three, four; honor tank platoon, three and four; German club one, three, and four Vice President; AUSA three and four; mountain and cold weather; winter carnival committee; regimental ball committee; Epsilon Tau Sigma Vice President. CP: That's the honorary society -- the academic honorary society. JP: And you were in Who's Who, also, I noticed in the yearbook. You were on that page, but the list doesn't stop. You were in the varsity club two, three, four; class honor committee to cadet cadre two, three, four; dean's list one, two, three, four; DMS, which is -- CP: Distinguished military student. JP: Wow. What was your GPA? What was your -- CP: I was second in my class -- JP: Wow! CP: -- and the person that was first in my class, Harry Short, and I competed for that position all four years and his is a sad story because he beat me and legitimately so; he was a very smart person. He went on to med school, got his MD and in my fifth year of graduate school, I found out that he had just been killed in an airplane crash that he was flying himself. So that was probably one of the saddest things that had ever happened and has 3 ever happened in my life -- to lose this very dear friend who was my arch competitor, but still a person that I had a lot of respect for. And really it was -- another aspect of that is that I -- up to that point I kind of thought of those of us who were in this top echelon as being untouchable. In other words, somehow we were just -- our lives were special and therefore they would not be expendable and that woke me up to the fact that in fact that was a very incorrect assumption to proceed with. JP: So what do you remember most about Norwich? CP: Oh, (laughs) there's so many things. I remember, and this is going to go on to one of the other questions, William Countryman, my favorite professor, and it's hard to pick a favorite professor because there were certainly three that I had -- William Countryman, Bert Wagenknecht, who was the botany professor at the time in biology, and of course, the ever traditional and ever present Fred Larson, who played a major role in my interest in geology. So, these are the three people that vied for my preferences as the favorite professors, and Bill -- but Bill because I had him more often than all of the others. I think he won out, but he was a very special professor anyway. He was smart, knew how to teach, and knew how to keep his classroom in stitches, which is something that is very important for a good teacher to have. It's something that I never developed as a teacher, I have to admit. JP: How did he keep you in stitches? CP: Oh, he just had great stories that were always able -- that always fit in to whatever lesson he was talking about and he had a great sense of humor. He was a very wonderful fellow. I ended up working for him, actually, when I came back here for a number of years because he went into private consulting and I worked for him. That's the story we can get into a little bit later. JP: Yeah. Because you went to the military after, but what was the hardest part? It seems like you probably did very well. Were you ever disciplined? CP: No, no. Should I have been? Yes. (laughter) JP: For what? CP: Oh, there were a couple of times I think when -- well, the one time that I remember specifically is when I was the executive officer of the third battalion my senior year. I think I had a soccer game. I think that's what it was, and so I went on the soccer game without thinking about the fact that I had to make sure there was somebody who took my place in formation because the battalion commander I knew was not going to be there. And so one of our class cut ups, who was just -- went on to become a great guy -- probably because he was a class cut-up, took over the battalion at the time and he made a pretty good farce out of it from what I understand, and I was about ready to get some demerits and I think my dad stepped in and prevented that from happening. I don't know, but I know I never got them.4 JP: What did he do? CP: Well -- JP: The farcical -- CP: Oh, what did he do? Oh, he just got up and mocked the protocol, the commands and everything. I don't know. I don't know exactly what happened. I just heard that it was pretty farcical, so -- JP: Norwich cadets cutting up? CP: Right, right. JP: No, say it isn't so! So what was your least favorite? Did you have a least favorite class here? CP: Well, I suppose it had to be English. And the reason for that was that I hated writing; I didn't know how to write. And, again, there's a story about how that can be -- how that turned around, but after I got out of grad school, and so I'll hold that until later. But at the time I hated the writing aspect of English. I didn't mind the reading aspect, the reading of the different literary assignments, that was fine, but, boy, I just did not like writing. JP: OK. What was the most important thing that Norwich taught you? CP: There are several things, but the first thing I learned, I guess, is that nothing ever lasts forever, and that was a lesson I learned in rook school, and it was a lesson that I think a lot of people learned in rook school because if you didn't learn that lesson, you couldn't get through rook school. That's a valuable lesson to learn if you're really being confronted by things that are difficult at the time. It's good to know that it can't last forever. The second lesson, and I think this is one that has probably, Norwich teaches more than anything else, and I have not seen it as something that is grasped by the powers that be as something that they need to promote, and that is that done properly, if you allow it to do it to you, allow Norwich to do this to you, you discover that your limits are way beyond where you thought they were, way beyond spiritually, way beyond physically, way beyond mentally because Norwich has a tendency to push people. It was pushing people when I was a cadet here and it still does push people and in ways that many other universities don't. And one good proof of that happened my sophomore year. In the eighth grade -- I've got to go back a little bit -- in the eighth grade is when we moved to Northfield because dad took the teaching position that year, and in my homeroom I went into the first day, and of course being an eighth grader boy, I was very interested in girls, and I saw silhouetted against the window this very pretty, cute blonde and I said, "Well, that's kind of a neat girl." And so I asked about her and found out that she was going with somebody else and so being an honorable person I decided I probably 5 better not interfere. But a little while later I heard that someone had said that she was interested in me, which of course was all I needed to do. So I approached her and we struck up a relationship that lasted through the sophomore year of high school and she eventually broke off with me about that time -- at that time because she thought I was pretty much so a namby-pamby, which I was, and then -- but I always had a crush for her and the sophomore year, New Year's Eve, I had a date that didn't come through and so on just a whim I called her up because she was a townie as well, obviously, and asked her out to New Year's Eve and she didn't have a date that night, so she accepted. And from that point on we were a couple and she has now been my wife for almost 50 years. JP: Awww, that's so sweet. CP: Yeah, so basically she just liked what she had seen -- the change in me that was -- that Norwich had brought about. JP: What's her name? CP: Christine. JP: Christine. CP: Yeah. JP: Wow, so Norwich helped her fall in love -- CP: That's exactly correct. And she'll admit that, too. I'm not making this up. (laughs) JP: Did the words "I will try" mean anything to you as a student? CP: It means -- it's hard for me to kind of express because I think I always felt that way, and I always was a little bit disappointed with it because I want to do more than try; I want to succeed. And I think that probably of all of the things that Norwich did for me, its motto was not one of the things that I carried with me throughout my career. I mean, I just knew I would try. Maybe that's why Norwich and I were such a good fit, I don't know, but in any event. JP: Well, you were obviously successful from an early time. Do you have any funny stories about life or people at Norwich? CP: (laughs) I don't know whether I want to tell one of them. Well, I guess probably the story I will tell is that the infamous panty raid -- JP: Oh, yes. CP: Roy [Bear?] [00:14:58], Dick Herbert, and myself had heard about this thing happening but we were at my house that night. And we finally decided after the news had come that 6 it was probably interesting enough that we ought to go over and take a look. So we went over after it had been done and interestingly enough we were watching -- after most of it had been done -- just to watch and at this point I have mixed emotions about whether I should have been involved or not, but at any event, one of things we noticed is that the police and the fire -- well, the fire department was using a lot of fire hoses on the few that were left and they were doing most of the damage with their fire hose that was finally attributed to Norwich cadets. They were breaking windows with the water and everything. And so we were standing around, and of course we looked like Norwich cadets because we had short hair, and one of the policemen came up to us and said, "Are you guys from Norwich," and I said, "No, not me, I'm from Northfield. I'm a townie," and that wasn't a lie because I was, but at that point in time we recognized maybe we better get out of there. So we got out and came back to my house and eventually got back into school. You know, they were checking everybody coming back in at that point in time and we had not been involved in the raid and so we -- this is our junior year -- so we were let back in, and again, I think it was partly because my dad vouched for me and said yes, they were at home at our house, and that was true. So, that's one of the episodes that I think is kind of humorous. JP: So you were questioned along with everybody else that had gone? CP: Yeah, sure, sure. JP: Interesting. Were there other panty raids? I had heard there might have been annual -- CP: I wasn't aware of it and certainly nothing as big as that. I know that one made national headlines and (laughs) -- JP: Yes, yes it did. What did you do after graduation? CP: Well, I was commissioned in armor, but because of my grades and because of other good letters of recommendation from my profs and performances on the GREs, et cetera, I was allowed to defer to active duty to go to grad school. And this is during Viet Nam so I was very happy with that. I wasn't going to argue that and so I had applied to the three -- by then I knew that I wanted to do evolution -- I had applied to the three universities in the nation at the time that were giving doctorates in evolution -- Harvard, University of Illinois and UCLA. Was accepted to all three with scholarships and decided I needed to get far away but not too far away. So I chose the middle of the two, University of Illinois, to go to grad school, and went to grad school there and had a great experience and learned and awful lot. And had -- in those days you had four years of total deferment to active duty to get your doctorate -- and four years to get a doctorate in biology is really difficult if not, you know, you have to really be smart, even smarter than -- I shouldn't say even smarter -- I worked hard, I wasn't smart, I just worked hard -- and smarter than me. So at the end of the fourth year I still hadn't had my degree, but what I did -- there were two things that happened. I found out that if I had a doctorate I could switch from armor to medical service corp., which is what I had originally put in for anyway, and so there was caveat on that, though. I had a two-year obligation, active duty obligation, in 7 armor. If I switched my branch then I would have to have another two years, in other words, a total of four year obligation. So this is where I think my Norwich training came in really, really helpful in about two tenths of a second I had the decision. You know, two years of which one would have to be in Viet Nam in a tank versus four years of which I would be applying what I had learned state-side in a research institution. It was a pretty easy decision to make and so I accepted the caveated offer to go to medical service corp. The other thing I did is we got in that fourth year you had an option on when to be put on active duty, and so I took the furthest one away from when I applied, which actually gave me almost five years of graduate study in grad school, and I cut it so close that on Wednesday night I defended my thesis, Thursday morning I boarded the plane for Fort Sam, officers basic course. JP: Wow! CP: Yeah, it was close. JP: Wow. CP: So, that was a very fortunate thing for me because getting into medical service corp. was fundamental to a lot of what happened to me from that point on. JP: In what way? CP: Well, because after officer's basic which is, you know, a three month assignment, I was assigned to Edgewood Arsenal and to the biomedical research lab there and my first assignment was to do research on a nerve agent poisoning -- the mechanism of a nerve agent poisoning, organophosphorus, the nerve agents, and to do that I had to kill cats. They were anesthetized and then we exposed them to nerve agents and monitored what was happening to them with some fairly sophisticated equipment and deduced from the responses what was going on. Well, you know, I'm not opposed to research of that sort but it was not something that I was really comfortable with and it turned out that the guy across the hall from me had just -- we were living in apartment houses at the time and so this is for married couples -- and so the guy across the hall from me had just gotten out of being the executive officer for the human experiment platoon. These were humans that had volunteered to undergo various kinds of experiments, most of which were with psychedelic kind of drugs. So it was kind of a difficult job to be in charge of them. And because he still had some active duty time, he was offered a position with the newly formed ecological research branch. Now his specialty was aquatics. He was a fisheries guy, marine and fresh water fisheries, and so he kind of fit right in and I'll explain why that was newly formed here in a moment. But he told me about this, and he said that they were looking for a person who had specialty in land and my, in addition to a doctorate in evolution, one of the -- the major area in evolution that I had worked on was mammals, mammalogy, and so I had a lot of experience with mammals as well as with reptiles and amphibians because one of my major mentors was Doctor Hobart Smith, who was probably the world's leading herpetologist at the time. So I had a lot of good experience that would put me into that position. So the next day I went over and talked to the newly 8 assigned director of the ecological research branch, Scott Ward, and told him what I was interested in and what my qualifications were and the next day I was reassigned to his branch. He had a lot of pull at the time. Why did he have a lot of pull? Here's why. He was a very sophisticated politician for one thing, but what he was heading up was a really dynamic and important endeavor at the time. Basically, Nixon, who has been maligned for a number of different -- well, for one thing, and that's Watergate, but really did an awful lot of good stuff during his presidency. National Environmental Policy Act, Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, diplomacy with China, et cetera. The list goes on. One of the things he did was he signed an executive order that unilaterally ended the open air testing of offensive, active -- of offensive and defensive biological and chemical weapons, and restricted any further research to just defensive research on biological and chemical weapons in labs. So, there were two places -- a number of places around the world where this research had been going on, two in the United States. One was in Dugway Proving Ground in Utah, the southern end of the Great Salt Lake desert, out in the middle of nowhere, which you would expect to be a place where this would be conducted. And there's some stories about that that I'll get into in the future, and then the other one was 17 miles northeast of Baltimore on Carroll Island, which is part of Edgewood Arsenal, an island -- a peninsula that jutted into the Chesapeake Bay. It was called an island because it was separated from the mainland by a channel of water, cooling channel from a power plant that was right there. And because they had stopped the open air testing the question was logically raised, was there any impact of the testing on the environment? Now Carroll Island it turned out -- well, both Dugway Proving Ground and Carroll Island formed these two groups to research this. On Carroll Island it turned out there were two parts to it. There was one part next to the mainland, and then there was an intervening large saltwater marsh, and then another part where all of the jutting out into the bay where all the testing had been done. And the two parts were fairly comparable to one another, so we had a very good control and a very good experimental area to do our studies on. So we started the study of that and that was the foundation of the Army's environmental ecological research effort, and so I was in on the ground floor of that, and that played a major role in my military career because -- well, one of the things that happened while we were there is as a result of the National Environmental Policy Act, we started getting into environmental assessments and environmental impact statements, one of the first groups to start doing that. And so, again, the procedures we developed and techniques and everything were eventually implemented -- became implemented into a lot of the Army approaches and regulations. To get a little ahead of myself I think it's important at this point to explain what happened at the end of the four years. I'm going to come back to Edgewood. At the end of the four years I was -- obviously my obligation, active duty obligation, was over and I thought, OK, this is it, I'm going to get out of the service. And I wanted to come back to Norwich and teach, quite honestly, and so I applied here but there wasn't a position available, and I really didn't know much about applying anywhere else, and I tried but I wasn't successful. But I had been offered a job at the sister organization out at Dugway Proving Ground as a civilian working, doing the same thing, extending what I had done at Edgewood. And I loved the job, I loved the people that I was working with both at Dugway, and by then we had formed this extended team where Dugway and Edgewood worked together, but I hated the environment of Baltimore, just didn't like the humidity in the summer, as a Vermonter I 9 couldn't handle it. So we took the job out at Dugway, and again, I'm going to come back to Edgewood, but I've got to finish this entry into Dugway because it's kind of a fascinating story. So, I had been out there many times and new I would love it, and so in order to make the final decision I had to take my wife and my two children out, then I had two boys, I now have three. So we left Baltimore when it was about 98 degrees and 150 percent humidity, not really, I mean, the air was just soaking. And we got on the plane and flew out to Utah and about 30 minutes out of Salt Lake City the pilot came on board and said the temperature in Salt Lake City is 110 degrees at which point my wife turned to me, she said, "As soon as we get off the plane we're turning around," because she was thinking 110 degrees with all of that humidity that we had just left behind, and I knew better. So I let her get off the plane and she looked around and she felt the air and she says, "I love it!" So I knew that we were sold on going out to Dugway. So, returning back to Edgewood, because we had these two wonderful control and experimental areas, we had a lot of wonderful data comparing two different community structures, those of let's say a species of trees on both places, fishes on both places, snakes on both places, amphibians on both places, mammals on both places, et cetera. And we had these wonderful databases. But at the time there was no way to really compare them because all of the mechanisms that were out there at the time, all of the methods that were out there at the time, were focusing on diversity, on measures of diversity, and we weren't interested in measures of diversity. We were interested in how alike are these two communities or how different are these two communities. So, the guy across the hall who introduced me to Scott, his name is Gareth Pearson. He eventually went on to become one of the directors in one of the labs of EPA, very successful career. JP: EPA is? CP: The Environmental Protection Agency. So Gareth and I sat down one night with this problem and a bunch of paper with some of our data on it spread out on the floor in his apartment and a six-pack of beer. And by the end of the six-pack, we had solved the problem, and we had developed an index that would compare these two communities in a very -- I've got to say clever way -- and in a very effective way and started applying that our data and then of course published it and this index, the Pinkham Pearson Index, is now regarded as the primary way to compare community structure. So we were very fortunate to be at the right place at the right time. I'm sure if we hadn't come up with it, somebody else would have. It's one of those things that's fairly obvious once you look at it, but, you know, we were there at the right time. JP: That's wonderful. I was hoping you would talk about that. CP: So we had a lot of fun. We did some great things. Great in the sense of they were fun things and wonderful to do. We started the -- we were the -- we, Edgewood, actually, the team that I was part of at Edgewood, really established the concept of the installation environmental impact assessment or statement where basically you go in to an installation, an Army installation, and you identify all of the resources on and around that installation and all of the activities on that installation that could impact these resources, and identified ways to mitigate the impact so that the installation could continue its 10 mission. And eventually out at Dugway as we continued the effort, because by the time I was at Dugway it was such a large effort that we needed to have both camps involved in this process. Another colleague of mine that I met at Dugway, David Gauthier, whom I also kind of took on as a person that I would work with the rest of my life, David and I were the co-editors of a seven volume -- became the co-editors of a seven volume treatise on doing ecological surveys at military installations, and one of the volumes was doing all of the procedures involved in doing an environmental assessment of an installation. All of the different topics you've got to cover and all of the ways you can cover them, it was a fairly extensive document. And still is -- its descendants are still being used in the environmental program in the military. So, I really enjoyed that part of my life. We got to go and I got to see lots of different parts of the United States. Never got away from the United States, but some of the really interesting installations where testing was going on of one form or another, whether it was vehicle testing or artillery testing or whatever, we got to go to because they were part of testing evaluation command at the time, which Edgewood Arsenal was part of, and that's where most of the environmental documentation was happening. One of the things -- and again, it's a matter of being at the right place at the right time, very quickly or very soon after we started our effort at Edgewood there was an operation at Edgewood that had been going on for years and their procedures, their environmental procedures, were just terrible, and we told them that they were just awful and that they would have to do something about them and they snubbed their noses at us. About six months later EPA caught up with them, newly formed EPA caught up with them, and the directors, whom we had said you better do something about this, ended up going to jail. JP: Really? CP: Yeah. So that all of a sudden gave us the notoriety or the fame that we needed to have to get everybody's attention and from that point on we got to do some pretty neat stuff. And going from coast to coast and seeing things, you know, I saw my first rattlesnake, I saw my first copperhead and things of this sort which were fun. In the wild, you know, turning things over and finding them there, which is part of our technique, and developed further techniques for looking at -- finding whether or not a military operation had impacts. I think one of the fun ones was Redstone Arsenal where a government operated -- a government owned, civilian operated (GOCO) facility had been operating during the Second World War manufacturing DDT. Every time they had a bad batch they just threw it out the back door. So although the facility had been destroyed, long gone, this batch was still there. Now what happened is that Redstone Arsenal called us there because they knew that there was this stream that was entering a bayou or a backwater of the Mississippi that didn't have any life in it and they wanted us to find out what was going on. So what we did is we used a technique which, I don't know whether we developed or had been used by others, but in any event, you go up and every time you find a branch in the river, or in the stream, you sample both sides and when you do that, you know, one, every time we went there, one branch was fine, the other branch was dead. And we kept following it back up until we found this huge area, a two or three football field size area of old DDT, and it became one of the nation's hazardous waste facility -- sites -- that had to be cleaned up. So it was, you know, it wasn't anything that the people there were 11 trying to cover up or had been responsible for, it had been done a long time ago and we were able to find that. Another program that I think was a lot of fun is that my boss, Scott Ward, was a falconer and this was in a time when falconers were -- he was a falconer when it was legit to be, OK to be, a falconer. But then the Endangered Species Act came along, which again, was another Nixon thing, and that prevented falconers from being -- you know, without having a license. You had to be licensed to be a falconer and had to have a legitimate reason. Well, he was a veterinarian and so he got his license. He was a wheeler-dealer and he made sure that he got his license and then he started working with peregrine falcons and their recovery. As you may know, about that time DDT, again, here's this DDT rearing its ugly head, had been bioaccumulating in predator species, the peregrine falcon being one of them, so that to a level that the eggs were thinning, the shells were thinning and the parents were breaking them in the nest as they were trying to sit on them. So, there was a real decline in peregrine falcons. In fact, the peregrine falcon south of the Arctic had gone extinct. So, Scott was involved in studying their recovery and to do so he became the coordinator of the North American peregrine falcon banding program, and he would go to a number of different places, Greenland, Hudson Bay, I think Alaska, and band fledglings in the nest, and then we would go to Assateague Island in the fall and in the spring and trap peregrine falcons to see if any of them had been banded to find out where they were coming from because at that point in time we really didn't know very much of any -- the peregrine falcons that are now south of the Arctic are all derived from peregrine falcons that were in the Arctic. It's a different subspecies but basically it was the only opportunity is to take these fledglings and bring them back here, and that was a Cornell program, did a wonderful job, and breed them in a captive breeding program and then reintroduce them to the wild. But knowing we just didn't have any information on what their flight pathways were, where their migration routes were, and so Scott was instrumental in coming up with that information. And so I was able to go with him and, you know, this is a military assignment. (laughs) JP: It's a great job. CP: Somebody had to do it, right. And spend a week or two weeks in the fall and in the spring on Assateague Island trapping peregrine falcons and birding and all sorts of stuff. So that was a lot of fun. We got to know a lot of interesting people because Scott made his way through the people who had influence at the time. I think one of the more interesting things is that, for example, we would often capture peregrine falcons with -- peregrine falcons -- he would also do it on Carroll Island -- capture either hawks or accipiters or falcons and they would have feathers in their beak or we would find kills in the woods, and part of our study was, you know, what had they killed? And so he would take these feathers and sometimes just one or two feathers they pulled out of the corner of their bill and send them off to a gal at the Smithsonian Institution, I can't remember -- I think her name was Roxy or something -- and she would identify it just from a single feather what the bird was. So that was part of our ability to get some additional data. What are they preying on when they're at different places in their migratory pathway, et cetera. So, that was another, you know, it was just a lot of fun things that we got to do and we would seine for fish. 12 JP: And we're back. CP: OK, so I'm trying to think of -- in the back of my mind there's one more story I want to tell and I can't come up with it right now. So those were fun days. We really had a great time doing all that sort of stuff. Oh, I know what it was. Another story was with Chandler Robins. Now, Chandler Robins is, I think he's still alive, one of the greatest ornithologists in the country. He wrote a book on birds of North America and Scott knew him well, and so I remember one night we had been out doing some night surveys and he had a recording of a bird that he couldn't -- all he had was the song and so we got on the phone the next morning and called up Chan and said, "Chan, I want to play something for you. Can you tell me what it is?" So we just played it for him over the phone. Chan says, "OK, so let me see. It was probably about nine o'clock at night, it was raining slightly and the sound is coming from the middle of a marsh, am I right?" And Scott says, "Yes," and so he says, "Well, it's a Black Rail," which fits all of those things. JP: Wow! CP: So this guy really knew his stuff. (laughs) That's the kind of stuff that we were exposed to for all of this. It was a lot of fun. JP: Did you photograph it? CP: Oh, no, no because it was at night. But I photographed a lot of birds. In fact, because I spent so much time going around doing this sort of stuff, my life list of North America north of the Mexican border is about 420 birds, 420 species. That's not anywhere nearly as many as it could be if I were a serious birder, but just because I have travelled so much, it's a lot larger than a lot of birders do have. JP: That's a lot of birds. CP: It is. JP: And you were outside and making the world a safer place. CP: Hopefully so. JP: That's pretty amazing. CP: Yeah. JP: Wow. I'm always amazed by you guys. CP: Yeah, it's fun what we get to do.13 JP: What about the Oxford Round Table? I know I'm jumping ahead, but I want to make sure we get that. CP: All right, so the reason -- I want to also hit my military career because I think that's important and, oh, we're doing fine. So let's hit the military career and then we'll come back to the Oxford Round Table. JP: Absolutely. CP: After I got out of Edgewood, I told you I was thinking about getting out of the service, my brother, my oldest brother, who at the time was a colonel in the Reserves, said, "No, you've got to stay in," and he explained to me why I needed to stay in. He said, "The benefits that you would accrue for retirement and for Space-A travel and medical coverage, et cetera, are just fantastic. You've got to stay in." So I did, I decided to stay in. And to get to the end of that story before I come back I stayed in for 47 years or whatever it was, I mean, 37 years. I retired at 60 from the Reserves and when I retired it was in '06 and I was the senior, maybe we should say old man of preventive medicine science officers and as such I was the mentor for about 700 preventive medicine science officers in the Reserves, the National Guard around the world. And from Norwich, this is when I was doing this, I sent out a weekly newsletter. Every Saturday I would come down early in the morning and I would work until one or two o'clock in the afternoon putting together this newsletter of all of the events that were important to preventive medicine science officers that had happened in that week and sent it out to them. And it got to be such a big thing that many of the active duty preventive medicine science officers were subscribing to it as well. JP: What was it called? CP: The Preventive Medicine's -- Reserves Component Preventive Medicine Science Officers' Newsletter, very imaginative title for it. JP: But very useful. CP: But it was very useful. JP: Extremely useful. CP: Yeah, it was during the Iraq war and during Pakistan as well. The beginning parts of -- I mean, Afghanistan. JP: So what kinds of things would be in it, for example? CP: Oh, there would be health reports from around the world, alerts about outbreaks of different things. There would be announcements of upcoming conferences that -- one of the things that preventive medicine science officers -- most preventive medicine science officers are in the Reserves are not assigned to a unit. They are what is known as 14 individual mobilization augmentees. They're on their own basically and they have to get their 50 points a year on their own. Because all of us have advanced degrees, we don't fit into most units and if there is a unit, it's probably across the country that we could fit into, and some of the people fit into those units, they just had to travel and they did their two weeks of active duty. And so it was very important to be able to get these people, all of these people for retention purposes if nothing else, to recognize all of the opportunities they had to get points and part of my role in this was to provide these opportunities -- show them the opportunities that they had and make sure they were taking advantage of them. JP: That's terrific. CP: So that was another side of it. And unfortunately, I think after I left I found a successor and I think he, after a year or so, found that the job was so demanding that he had to back out and I don't think anybody else took over. But it happened during a time when it was really important too because we were so widespread and some us of involved in conflicts around the world that it was important for us to have that at that particular time. I'm sure it would still be valuable today, but I don't think anybody has followed up on it. But then that's another thing where Norwich guys have a tendency to see a need and fill it. Another thing, which also is a Norwich story, I think, is to get my points, one of the ways you can get points is to be a liaison to West Point, and what that means is basically that you are helping to guide the applicants for West Point from Vermont or from whatever state you're in, through the process so that they either are successful or not. Well, it turns out in Vermont I think we have a higher percentage of people that get in for reasons which are not worth going into here than most states. But you still, one out of ten, one out of 20 would make it. So, one of the advantages of that is it gave me an opportunity to direct the nine or 18 failures to Norwich which many of them did come here as a result. So that was a good recruiting opportunity as well. And Norwich -- West Point preferred to have of all of those senior military academies, they preferred to have either West Point or Norwich personnel fill those positions because they knew that they would do a good job and a serious job. So, let's see, what else is here? All right, we can go on to the Oxford thing. So, I, as I've stated earlier, had always been interested in evolution and ever since I was able to remember, I recognized that the beauty around me that I was fascinated with in nature, the butterflies, the flowers, the trees, the frogs, whatever I was attracted to at the time, was just not by chance but brought about by a creator. Now I grew up in a family with a Christian influence and background, but I myself, I personally never understood who Jesus Christ was and his importance to me, and just recently I kind of figured out a good way to explain that. As a kid I had understood that Christmas was all about me. And Easter somehow had something to do with this person called Jesus Christ but I wasn't sure what it was. And quite honestly I really went through childhood, school, here, graduate school, and well into my military career until early into Dugway assuming that. I now know that I got it totally backwards and in fact Christmas is all about Jesus and Easter is all about me and you and all of us, the rest of us who need to have the salvation of Jesus. Now the story, I mean, I'm not going to go there because I'm not sure that's appropriate for this but I just want to set the stage for this. So I had always felt that this creator must be really awesome, but because early on, and I don't know why, 15 I understood because I'd been reading well enough, you know, extensively enough, I understood the evidence for evolution and the fact that evolution was a mechanism. So, I began to become convinced that that God used evolution, we'll call this creator God, used evolution to bring about us, to bring about the universe, to bring about everything, and so I spent a lot of my time, in fact, I thought when I get out of grad school that that's what I would focus on but the military took me in different places. And I wanted to see if I could understand more about how evolution worked and how a creator might have brought this about. So when I got out of Edgewood, went to Dugway out there, there was -- obviously this is Mormon country and Mormons proselytize and they tried to proselytize Chris and I, and Mormons are wonderful people and my boss is a Mormon and I have an awful lot of respect for them, but we were invited to a Mormon gathering and treated wonderfully and they were a very friendly group of people and as we were going home, my wife and I were talking to one another -- no, we weren't talking to one -- we were very silent and one of us, and we don't remember to this day who said, "What did you think of that," and the other one said, "Well, my spirit was troubled," and the other one agreed that that was the case. And so we began looking at our roots and it turned out that at that point in time the chapel at Dugway -- now, let me explain something about Dugway. Even though I was a civilian because it was a remote post civilians were allowed to live on the installation, so we were living on the installation. So the chapel had just undergone a change in chaplains and my wife had started going -- after this incident she started going -- and she came home after one Sunday service fairly early in the process and said, "You got to listen, you've got to come and listen to this guy because he's talking about the evidence for God and for belief and, you know, the science of it all," and I said, oh, come on, this guy can't know what he's talking about. So, I went and come to find out he did. He had some very good compelling evidence. And so that started me on a year and a half of questioning, of investigation, of seriously considering the possibility that, in fact, this God that's talked about in the bible is, in fact, the same God, creator -- Lord God creator of the universe that I had been thinking about all along and worshipping myself. And after a year and a half of reading the bible, of seriously going to church, of going to adult Sunday school, of talking with people, et cetera, I was finally convinced and turned my life over to Jesus. So, from that point on I thought, well, OK, from here on I'm going to get back on to the track of this thing and it didn't happen, it didn't happen. I still continue the environmental movement and then about -- well, six years, six and a half years into being at Dugway my -- oh, I got to do the science fair. Don't let me forget to do the science fair. My wife's mom started showing symptoms of Alzheimer's and her dad began to try to deal with it. He was retired at the time. She never did work. And he was having some difficulty and as time went on it became increasingly obvious to us that Chris needed to go back and help her dad take care of her mom and it was a good time because at that particular point in time we had progressed enough in our understanding of what the Word says, the bible says, we felt that we had an obligation to honor our parents and come back here and so at the same time I had been working with a colleague of mine that we rode to work with. By then we had moved off the installation and we were living in a small town called Terra, Utah, which was ten miles east, roughly east, of the main gate Dugway Proving Ground, and it was across -- the ten miles were mostly across Skull Valley and the road was ten miles of absolutely arrow-straight road. So you got in your car, if you were awake it didn't matter because 16 you just aim, lock the steering wheel in, and ten miles later you were at the front gate. And so we had a lot of time for discussion as we were doing this and we had come up with an idea for -- we were both avid gardeners -- we come up with an idea for preserving, allowing us to start our garden early using some -- he was a chemist and I'm a biologist -- using some very well known, well established properties of water and when it freezes it gives off heat called the heat of fusion and that heat could protect your plants from freezing. They do it in orchards, for example, by spraying water. So we came up with a device and it took us a little while to come up with it, but we came up with a device called the Wall O' Water Plant Protector. And so I figured, alright, this is going to give me my key, we can go back here and this is going to provide enough income, but it became obvious to me that this was going to take awhile for this to grow and so I had been going to officers advance course with three people. One of them was a chaplain that had been involved with my coming to the Lord. Another one was a person that I met in Salt Lake City in Utah. This is Salt Lake where the course was, who was a business major and so the business major heard about what we were doing because one of the nights we had to talk about something we were doing and I talked about it and he said, "Oh, this is a great idea. I want to help you make this happen." So he became the president of the company and he got things rolling as far as the business side is concerned. And so I was convinced that this was going to be my key to being able to come back here. Well, as I said, it very quickly became obvious it was not. It takes, like any new idea, almost any new idea, it takes a long time to get going and I decided well I better consider trying to find a job back here. Well, it turned out that Chris had been flying back to help her dad for just a little while and on the same flight she ran into Roy Bear who was flying out Midwest for something, I can't remember what it was, and they got talking, of course they knew each other from here, and he said, "Well, you know, I have been teaching anatomy and physiology in summer school, and I just don't want to do it anymore. So there's an opportunity for Carl to teach that." Well, I had never, you know, my major was at the population level or above. I mean, my focus, and I had not really had much in the way of physiology. But I, you know, this is an opportunity, I couldn't refuse this. So I put in for it and I got the job and that was important because it filled in a part of my education that was lacking because I started focusing not at the population level and above in the levels of complexity, but at the species level and below in levels of complexity. So, it really rounded out my education by forcing me to learn the material. You know, if you want to learn something, teach it. And so all of that played a role in -- as I was going through and teaching I was seeing things that played into very nicely into this idea that, you know, there really is a creator behind all of this. And so in the middle of all of this I suddenly get a letter out of nowhere. I have no idea, and I've asked them and they won't tell me where they got my name, but I got a letter saying that the Oxford Round Table is having a session on faith and science, the great matter, and would I like to be involved in it. And my initial reaction was I'd like to be and I've been thinking about this a lot and I've got a lot of thoughts on it, but, boy, do I have time to put something together and my three sons said, yes, you've got to do this, Dad. And so I said yes and I put the paperwork through Norwich and they said yes and so I was invited to go to the Oxford Round Table and make a presentation. And that's when I had to formally put down all of my thoughts. Since that time, and that was published online and since that time I've had a chance to present it elsewhere and to develop the thoughts a lot more 17 and the evidence now is even more compelling in my mind than it was even when I did it at Oxford. The primary thing that we have to recognize is that -- and this is something that makes sense if there is a creator behind all of this, is that science now fully recognizes, there are very few scientists who don't agree with this, that the universe began with an event called the Big Bang, 13.82 billion years ago and that accompanying that event the universe was imbued with about 20 fundamental forces constants and masses whose values are such that if they weren't exactly what they were we wouldn't be having this recording and that does two things. It says A, there's a beginning, so if you've got a beginning logically you've got to have something who begins it. An uncaused cause as it's sometimes referred to, and, also, that that beginning was accompanied with some very suspicious characteristics. Now, science by definition, and properly so, eliminates -- it doesn't eliminate. It admits it cannot investigate miracles. It is just not designed to follow miracles. Science can give us insights that I think can help us to understand whether or not miracles are possible, whether or not there is a God. And the point that this revealed at the time was that we have enough information, science has enough information about that moment of creation or of coming into existence of the universe, let's not call it creation at this point, that it has to be explained or it can be explained only by invoking infinity because only with infinity can you get all of these 20 or so values coming together with their precise values. Presumably they're independent coming together and having a situation where you would have a universe come into existence because the probability of this happening is so, so very, very tiny, all of them with their values. So, there are about eight ways of the sciences come up with explaining this and all eight of them can be reduced to this use of infinity and I say there are three ways that we invoke infinity. Science embraces two. One is that the universe is infinite and we're in the part that works with these constants, these values, or the other is that there's an infinity of universes and we're in the one that works, or that the universe is created by an infinite mind. And quite honestly, at this point anyway, we cannot distinguish among those three. Each of them is arguably just as logical as the other. There are many scientists who would say that the third one is not acceptable and I would challenge them the way Ravi Zacharias and other people challenge them in that maybe they have some personal biases that they need to look at seriously. But be that as it may, I, in looking at this and accepting this, discovered that there are eight phenomena that keep recurring again and again at what I call essential conditions that in the evolution, in the progress, the evolution from the Big Bang to us whether it's cosmological or chemical or biological evolution, there are requisite conditions that have to occur and every time you find a requisite condition, you identify a requisite condition, there are eight phenomena that are associated with it that happen, that are met, and so it makes me wonder if there's this pattern, is there something behind the pattern? And that's where all this comes in and obviously I believe there is, there is a creator God behind this. JP: So this paper generated quite a bit of -- CP: Quite a bit of thought and discussion and continues to. Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the other reasons we wanted to come back to Norwich, to continue on in this vein, was that I had as part of the coming to a belief and a faith in Christ, and being at a military installation, it was logical that I would find Officers Christian Fellowship. Officers 18 Christian Fellowship is a fellowship, as it states, of officers in the military and this is the Army -- the US branch of it, but there's worldwide groups called by different names, who embrace Christian faith and use it, try to use it, in their life and in their leadership roles. And so I encountered it and became convinced that was something that Norwich could benefit from. And so one of the reasons we came back was to form a Christian fellowship at Norwich using Officers Christian Fellowship as our basic model. So we came back in 1982. Chris preceded me by about four months and so we -- I arrived here in March -- permanently arrived here in March of 1982, getting ready to teach that summer school course, and I began immediately looking for a student that would be interested in forming a Christian fellowship and I couldn't find any. I looked and went to the chapel, asked around, I was having no luck. And one day I was walking on the upper parade ground, I don't remember why, but I was walking on the upper parade ground towards Jackman on the western side and I saw a cadet coming toward me and the Holy Spirit said to me, "You see that cadet? He's the one I want you to talk to about starting a Christian fellowship." And of course my reaction, my immediate reaction, was yeah, sure. I'm so concerned about this that I just created that thought in my mind, and I said I'm not going to pay any attention to it. But the closer I got to this cadet, we were walking towards one another, the more I felt the Holy Spirit saying, "Do it, do it," and it got to the point where I knew that if I hadn't done it I would be in disobedience to God. I would be disobeying the Holy Spirit and so I stopped him. I said, "Young man, you probably are not going to understand what I'm about to tell you and you're going to think I'm nuts, but the Holy Spirit just told me that I'm supposed to talk to you about starting a Christian fellowship at Norwich," at which point he stopped, I mean, he was stopped. He kind of went, "You're kidding me," and kind of fell back, took a step back, and he said, "As I was coming towards you, the Holy Spirit was telling me that I've got to talk to you about starting a Christian fellowship at Norwich." So, that started the Norwich Christian Fellowship. The cadet's name was John Pitrowiski and we started a fellowship that was in 1982, and that must have been -- I'm gathering, I'm thinking it might have been in April, I didn't put the date down. And so that was still in the days when I think Norwich went further beyond May. I think they went to late May or beginning of June, and so it wasn't very long but he had a couple of friends from classes beneath him, Joe Saltsman being one of them, who wanted to be part of this. And so it continued from that year on. And so last year we celebrated our 30 th year together and it's been a great trip helping Norwich students who are inclined to follow the Lord and find out about Officers Christian Fellowship, et cetera. So John Pitrowski, I lost track of him because he was a senior and he graduated a month or two after we formed the fellowship. And I had assumed that I must have done this in the fall of '83 because, you know, I had to have had a longer year. I had almost a year with him before he left that was my assumption. So I went through all of the year books from '80 -- let's see, '82, it would be '83 on. I couldn't find his name so I -- you know, did I somehow get his name wrong? But I asked Joe Saltsman and he says, "Yeah, I remember John." So I knew I had it right and one day -- actually, about a year before our 30th, it all of a sudden dawned on me. I said, "Do you know what? Is it possible that he was in the class of '82?" So I got out the '82 yearbook and sure enough there he was. Come to find out he goes to a church in Waterbury very close to the church I go to.19 JP: You're kidding. CP: He's been around all of this time. JP: Oh, no kidding. CP: So, on the 30th, which was his 30th reunion of course, we got together and had a big celebration. JP: That's wonderful. Do you have time for STEM? CP: Sure, sure. What happened is as I -- when I was in the eighth grade at Northfield I entered the state science fair with my shell collection. Now, in this day and age you couldn't do that and that's not really important to understand, but one of the things that I had really gotten involved with as a kid, and why I was considering marine biology, is I loved shells. I loved the animals that made shells and I loved shells themselves because I'm kind of artistic and I kind of like art stuff as well. And shells are very beautiful, they're geometric, they're colorful, they're wonderful things. So I was naturally attracted to them. So I entered that in eighth grade, won first place in the state science and math fair, and then again in my senior year I did the same thing, only I did some research and did some dissections and had some studies that I had done. Again, not the kind of stuff that we now do in the science fairs, but at the time it was. And again I won first place. So I was kind of sold on science fairs. So from that time on I offered to judge in science fairs. So at the University of Illinois, in Utah I judged, in Maryland I judged, I think, and I'm not 100 percent sure whether I did or not, but I know at the University of Illinois I did and in Utah I did. In Utah, because I was coming in from Dugway Proving Ground I was coming in as an Army judge and it was part of my assignment, my military points to do this as a military judge. So I did it for a year or two and one of the guys that I was doing it with had been working with the Army Research Office and their program of judging the International Science and Engineering Fair. So he'd been part of the Army judges for them. And he said, "I'm going to have to get out of this. Would you like to take my place?" So I said, "Well, yeah." So that year the international fair was in San Antonio and I went there and became a member of the Army judging team, generally about 30 judges every year from the Army would judge the International Science and Engineering Fair and give wonderful prizes. We sent students to the Plum Blossom Festival in Japan or the Fortnight in England, in London. You know, when the Army judges came around the students took notice. So it was a great assignment and a great opportunity and they treat the judges really well. Afterwards they have a big shindig for them with lots of cheese and lots of hors d'oeuvres and lots of wine and stuff, and I said, boy, this is a deal! So I became sold on that and did for the next 25 years served in that capacity almost every year. A couple years I didn't make it and in the last five I was the Chief Army Judge in charge in all of those 30 judges and also got some other assignments related to that. I became the Army judge for the National Junior Science and Humanities Symposium, which is a similar kind of thing done at about the same time of year, but rather than having a poster session, which is what the International Science and Engineering Fair poster presentation judges. The National Junior Science and 20 Humanities Symposium has a platform presentation. So it's a different -- you can, you know, sometimes the same projects can be in both but there are different ways of presenting the information. So, that convinced me that, I mean, I was already convinced, but that certainly drove the nail home that I was very much still interested in STEM and then I came to Norwich and of course the science fair was being held here and so I immediately became a judge in the science fair and recognized that Vermont State Science and Math Fair was not, it was one of the two or three states not involved in ISEF, and said, you know, I've got to get it involved but I just do not have the time to teach and to do the Vermont State Science and Math Fair component that would get us involved with ISEF. But I made a pledge that I would, to myself, I guess, that once I retired from the military in 2003 because that was when I turned 60, that I would make an effort to get us involved with ISEF. And at that point I had been working with Mary Hoppe and, oh, come on, I'm drawing a blank here. We'll have to get that back up. What's her name? [Martha McBride] Anyway, who had been the two directors, working with them to kind of be an understudy. And so the next year I said I'm going to continue this process as an understudy and I'm going to link us up with ISEF. Now, the main thing about ISEF is you send, at that time, one winner on to international -- from your state fair, on to the International Science and Engineering Fair to compete there, but that requires money and of course the science fair had no money. I mean, it had very little money that they were -- the major initiative that I saw I had to do with come up with a way of getting money and that has become a really time consuming operation. We raise in terms of actual awards and prizes and trip money, we raise about $25,000 a year now and it takes a lot of time to do that even though I have -- almost all of that is coming from established partners, as we call them, because every year you have to renew it, you have to send out emails, you have to send out letters, you have to follow up on them. Some of them follow up themselves, some of them you have to follow up on. You have to record all of this so you know what you did because we have over 120 partners. It's trying to keep all of them straight. You know, what conversation you had with which one three weeks ago is just, you know, you've got to keep accurate records of that. So it's a very time consuming process. But we are really making progress, we are making headway. We are getting more and more students involved in science fair projects and of course the problem with our country -- one of the problems with our country today -- is that many of our students look at Science Technology Engineering and Math, STEM, as being over their heads, over their ability, and we want to make sure that students understand that in many cases that's not the case. It's that they haven't had the opportunities to get excited by it. For example, when I was in the science fair as a senior, that was during the space race and I remember going from the state science fair to the New England science fair and that was during the New England science fair was the -- we heard over the speakers an announcement that the US had successfully sent our first astronaut into orbit. And so those were exciting times and those are the kinds of things that get people's kids' imagination going. Well, we needed something like that because let's face it, if we're going to retain our position as strategically as number one in the world, we have got to have a good Science Technology Engineering, and Math. I had recognized, having been travelling a few other places in the world that the US, high school STEM scores were very woefully low and yet, here we are number one in the world. How can that be? Well, there's a number of reasons, but one of the reasons is, what I had discovered was happening at Norwich, is that between 21 high school and graduating from college the role of the university in this country is to push our kids. It's really important that we push our kids and make them learn the stuff that other kids were learning in high school elsewhere around the world. And, for example, in Japan they're pushed hard, they do well in high school and they score well, but my oldest son, English as a second language teacher in Japan, so we went over to visit him and it turns out that their college over there is almost a lark. And so we can catch up with them and we do catch up with them and we pass them. Certainly other reasons for this is we get a lot of influx from the best of the foreign countries as well, too. I'm not trying to downplay that. But it became obvious to me that we really needed to do something positive and we need to do something positive to encourage our young kids to discover that science, technology, engineering, and math are wonderful and they're exciting and they're full of all kinds of challenges and opportunities and experiences that you're not going to get any other way and I think we're beginning to get that. JP: That's wonderful. You have done so much and you have been -- CP: I've been blessed. I haven't really tried to do this or do that. It's just that things have fallen in my path and I think because of Norwich I don't hesitate, I don't pull back from taking advantage of them, but I really have been blessed with lots of opportunities, lots of fun stuff. JP: You have done a lot of really amazing things. The Pinkham Pearson Index alone, notwithstanding the other stuff. Do you have any relatives at Norwich besides your dad? CP: My oldest brother, the one who said that I should stay in the military, in the reserves, David, who lives in Montpelier, he's still around. He's 87 I think. He was in the Second World War and after the war he came to Norwich for two years in engineering. He actually showed me a paper he wrote on nuclear power (laughs) that at the time of the Second World War was still a concept, and then he transferred to Cornell to finish his degree in engineering. So he's part of Norwich. I have two of my three sons attended Norwich and youngest, well, the middle son went to Vermont, VC, Vermont College, when it was part of Norwich and my youngest son came here and majored in psychology and actually has gotten a masters from Norwich in the masters degree, online degree program in criminal justice management or administration. JP: What's his name? CP: Kristian Pinkham. JP: Kristian Pinkham. Amazing. The Pinkhams at Norwich. CP: And the middle one is Kreig Pinkham. JP: With a C or K?22 CP: K. All my three sons are with K's. Kevin is my oldest. He's an English professor carrying on the family tradition of teaching down at Nyack College in New York, and Kreig is the director of the Washington County Youth Service Bureau, which is really responsible for homeless and run away youth in the state of Vermont. And my youngest son is a DEA agent in El Paso, Texas. JP: Wow, that's amazing! Gosh, I want to ask you a little bit about what advice would you give a rook today about how to survive and thrive the way that you did? CP: Well, the first thing is, again, remember -- and I still tell them this -- the two things that I think are important. One is that nothing lasts forever and so you can get through the rook school, the rook experience. If you keep this in mind it will keep you sane. And secondly, that if you allow it to, Norwich will push you and will help you to develop as an individual, but you've got to go along with the flow. You can't resist the flow. You've got to take advantage of the opportunities that it provides. I think that's really important. And of course, obviously, the students that I come into contact with through Norwich Christian Fellowship, I say to continue to develop your spiritual understanding, your spiritual walk, your spiritual self. And as a teacher I think I made it clear in my courses. On the first day of course I said, first day of class I said, "You've got to understand that I am a Christian and my worldview is formed by that -- is informed by that. I will not mention anymore about it in class. You will hear an awful lot about evolution in class because I'm an evolutionary biologist and if you feel that there is a problem between the two, I'm more than happy to talk with you about how that problem is not real, but that's got to be done outside of class." And so I made it clear in all of my classes that that was something that I -- that they needed to know about me in order to be fair and open. JP: Wow. How do you define leadership or have you already, do you think? CP: Well, to be honest with you, I've not given a whole lot of thought to what leadership really is, but on the spot I would have to say that leadership is a willingness to lead and a willingness to -- openness to see opportunities and to think creatively about these opportunities and how you might use them. And that's a good question because it brings up another story that I think I would like to relate to. And that is the story of the Russian scientist. Shortly after I left Edgewood as my individual mobilization designee assignment, I was assigned back to Edgewood from Dugway. And the two weeks that I was at Edgewood, my boss had -- because he was a North American peregrine falcon banding program coordinator, had gone to Russia, not during that two weeks, but he had earlier gone to Russia and met with and formed a working relationship with his Russian corresponding -- his Russian equivalent, and he and another Russian scientist were scheduled to come to the US during this two weeks that I was going to be assigned to Edgewood Arsenal, to Scott's group. And so this was during the Cold War, but there was some efforts at detent and this being something where there was no weapon system involved or anything like that. It was something as regarded by the government as being worthwhile. So I was invited by Scott to help him get his -- he had just bought a dilapidated Southern mansion in Maryland to get it up kind of a little bit in shape for this 23 meeting. And so I helped him do it and the Russians came and we spent an evening toasting one another and going through bottles after bottles of vodka and, again, my Norwich training came through because I was able to drink two Russians under the table. I'm not overly -- well, yes, I'm proud of that. Let's face it. I don't drink that way anymore, but at the time there was a value to it because when I was at Norwich, I drank like a Norwich student. So, anyway, in the process of that evening, we had a conversation and it was very obvious to me in this conversation that something was wrong, and I'm going to explain what was wrong, but I've got to go back just a little bit. In grad school finished all my courses except for one, population genetics. Population genetics was taught by a newly minted post-doc who had the audacity to expect his students to think. Well, I was a good student because I was fantastic at rote memory, I wish I still were, but at that time I was really good at it. And I wasn't used to a course where they said think and I got a 48 on the final exam and he was good enough to give me a D in the course. I had been essentially a straight A student and that shook me up as you can well imagine. And so I had to ask myself, is thinking a skill that I don't have? Is it something I'll never have or is it a skill that can be acquired? So I started researching thinking, creative thinking, and discovered that it is a skill that can be learned that every human being is born with it but quite often the school system teaches us out of it. In my case it was perhaps the school system, but more important, understand I love my father and he was a wonderful person, but he was an old guard, old school military guy. It was his way or not. So very quickly I learned it didn't do any good to think, it didn't do any good to explain things to him, my side of the story, because there was only his side of the story, so I stopped learning how to think. And so I got to this moment in grad school, this crisis moment, and discovered that I didn't know how to think. From the studies, however, from taking courses and everything I learned how to think and that's why I've got several patents and I've been able to come up with the Pinkham Pearson Index, et cetera. But as I was talking with these Russians, it became very obvious to me they were suffering from the same problem I had been suffering from. It was dangerous for them to think. So the only way they could come up with any thought whatsoever was to just randomly go all over the place and hope that somewhere sooner or later they would stumble across something that was useful and relevant. At that instant I knew we had won the Cold War. It was clear to me that they were fighting an impediment that would just prevent them from doing anything that we had to worry about. And, in fact, that's the way it turned out. JP: That's a nice -- that's a good story, big picture, little picture. Is there anything else that you would like to say? Anything about the Citizen Soldier or -- CP: The Citizen Soldier is a very, very important concept and I'd like to think that I embody it. The reason I feel that way is because I think I embody it, but the soldier doesn't always have to be, obviously, a fighting individual in the sense of a combat. Combat service and combat service support are two very, very important aspects of the military and you can be in combat, and my hat is off to everyone who is in that position, whose life is at risk, willingly puts their life at risk for their country and for their comrades, but there's also a role for those of us who are a little bit less brave, like myself, who want to serve and have a gift to give to the country but can give it in a way where the risk to life 24 and limb is not anywhere nearly as great as it is in the combat arms. So, I think the Citizen Soldier is a very important aspect that we need to be aware of and promote. And I'm proud to say I'm a part of Norwich which founded the concept. And I generally don't miss opportunities when I'm talking with youngsters to point that out to them. JP: Is there anything else you'd like to add? CP: Probably, but I can't think of it right now. I think that's about it. JP: That's about it. Thank you. CP: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for the opportunity, I enjoyed this. This is fun. JP: This has been fascinating and I think it's going to be fascinating for people to hear. I think it's going to be very interesting for people who are interested in the different things you've spoken about and to hear you say them. So thank you. I'm going to hit stop. I need to do a little intro. And we're back with Carl Pinkham. CP: So the parting Norwich story while I was a student has to do with three events that happened my last three days at Norwich. On Friday I was commissioned a second lieutenant in armor. On Saturday I was married to Christine Waite who has been my wife for almost 50 years and on Sunday I graduated. JP: That's a busy -- CP: That's a very busy time. (laughter) JP: That's good. CP: That's it. JP: Thank you. END OF AUDIO FILE