Suchergebnisse

Transcript of an oral history interview with Madonna Commo, conducted by Sarah Yahm at the Sullivan Museum and History Center on 30 March 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project. The interview focuses on Commo's experiences working at the barbershop at Norwich University for the past thirty years. ; 1 Madonna Commo, Oral History Interview March 30, 2015 Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Sarah Yahm Transcribed by C.T. Haywood, NU '12, Mary 12, 2015 SARAH YAHM: Okay so I'm wondering if you could introduce yourself. MADONNA COMMO: I am Madonna Commo. I am in the barbershop. I've been in the barber shop for 30 years. SY: And today's March 30th? MC: Thirtieth I believe. SY: Okay it's March 30th and we're here at the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Okay so how did you first come to Norwich? MC: I first came to Norwich because they were looking for an individual that knew how to cut female's hair. The barbershop had male barbers for I'm sure the existence of the barbershop, but females were suddenly being introduced and so there was a new demand for someone that knew how to cut that female's hair. And so I suddenly had a job. SY: And did you see it advertised in the paper. How'd you know it was open? MC: He did advertise in the paper. He advertised for a—actually for a barber slash cosmetologist and I just happened to be reentering the field - I had been out of it for a number of years - and so I answered the call. I thought it would be a lot of fun and so he was quite demanding. He wanted me to go in and take barber college classes before I even started, which was pretty senseless. It cost me a lot of money to do and he could have done this as an apprenticeship, as a barber apprenticeship but he just didn't want to do it I guess or whatever. But I did what he asked me to do and so I did get a number of barber hours under my belt before I even started here at Norwich. But I was a licensed cosmetologist when I started here. SY: And what was your first day like? What was your experience working, it was an all-male bastion, right? MC: It was an all-male, yeah it was very--I'm not gonna say it wasn't intimidating. It was extremely intimidating. I wasn't sure I was gonna come back for the next few days. It was, and I'm not that easily intimidated. I was used to working around guys. But yeah, the whole atmosphere, the whole feeling was just very, very different from what I was used to. So it was, it was a very strong, dominating, loud. Between the military atmosphere which I was not used to, and the solid male pretty much influence, it was a real challenge to try to fit into the barber shop. SY: Did--were things said to you? Or was it more just a feeling? MC: Well, you know, it started out as a feeling. And there was, you know, definitely a, a dominance. The males were definitely dominating and of course they would be, I was the new kid on the block anyways. So I expected the dominance, but as the years went by and so forth they still wanted to continue to be extremely dominating and so forth. And it was more of a male dominance than it was an employee dominance that needed to be there. 2 SY: So how did you kind of assert yourself? How did you kinda make it a place that you were okay to work? MC: We were, we were so busy that I just I just kept cutting hair. I just came in and I just minded my business and I showed up on time, and I just, I just minded my business. And I tried to please both the Corps and my employer. I tried to do the best I could all the way around. I soon found that they you know, they didn't want me to wear certain things and I had to--he event told me not to have a conversation with the guys in my chair, that I didn't need to have a conversation with them. "Just put them in the chair. You don't need to talk to them, just cut their hair." And I'm like, "Okay," because my conversation might be flirting. And I'm like [laughs] "okay," and at one point it got it warmer you know I think it was a fairly warm day and so and I love dresses, so I just it wasn't a fancy dress, I put on a dress. We wore jackets anyway, and they completely flipped out on me, they just said, "Don't you ever show up here with a dress again. We don't want to be looking at those legs. You're giving the whole wrong influence on this barber shop." And I'm like, "o-kay." So it was yeah, it was very interesting job. SY: They sound terrified of women, just like terrified like the fact you and a dress could just "ah." MC: You know you're right it--at that point for me they were terrifying, okay? But as I look back at it they were the ones that were terrified of me, they were terrified of me even being in there they were--you know it's like putting a woman on a boat, it's just bad luck okay. And I got that feeling as the woman working in the barber shop it was just a sailor's bad luck, it was a barber's bad luck to have that woman in there [laughs]. Isn't that awful? SY: Sounds like the fifties in there huh? MC: Yeah let's go back to the thirties maybe, yeah. SY: Interesting. MC: Yeah. SY: Interesting, really strange. And then you left and you were back in Central Vermont where things were, yeah it's so strange. MC: Yeah. SY: Yeah, and so when did things start to change? MC: Well I just. you know I just stayed consistent [laughs] and held my ground as an employee I held my ground. And people came and went, in other words bosses came and went. He'd, they'd contract out the service and individuals would not get the contract and we would get other contractors. And the second gentleman that I worked for was much more a compliant, he was a wonderful boss actually, really liked him a lot and worked for a number of years for him. And ran the shop for him and enjoyed him a lot. So, he was a different, he was still old school but that influence was gone, and he allowed us to make the atmosphere of the barber shop a completely different atmosphere from what it was when I first started. SY: So how did you, how did you change the atmosphere? What was it like when you first started and what was it like when you changed it? MC: First started it was almost like they were sergeants in there, demanding and screaming and hollering at the kids to, you know. The kids were running to the chair, sitting down and staring into space and it was just [laughs] I don't know, that's a long day and I'm not supposed to talk to them. And so we realized 3 and after working there for a number of years I realized that this just ridiculous. So in talking to the commandants at the time I said, "I really don't want this to be a place where the military demand is influenced in here. I want this to be a relaxed atmosphere, you know even the Rooks, can they at ease in here? Can we have conversations with them?" and I believe it might have been Melville at the time or whoever, wonderful man and he's like, "Absolutely, that's ridiculous let's change this." So he took the initiative to allow us to just get rid of all of that and told the cadre or whoever that in the shop you're not to push a kid agonist the wall. Back in the day it was pretty aggressive and so that suddenly was not allowed and as that came into play the kids would come in and relax and then we would have the radio on, and the magazines and even the Rooks were allowed to sit down and relax and be people in there for their, you know, time that they were there. So that worked out much better. SY: So now do you think it's kind of a safe space? Do people look forward getting a haircut especially when they're Rooks? MC: You know I think they do. I think they have for quite a while. We--at this stage of the game if we compared what the shop was when I started compared to what it is now, it's done a complete turnover. I have two other ladies that are working for me with me and this shop right now is almost like the kids come in and they can almost talk to us, because they're away from their moms and it's comfortable and they even confide in us, you know, personal things that we don't let anyone else we'd never, nothing ever leave our shop and I think that's why I've been there 30 years too. But you know it's a completely different space and they're very comfortable there. I do think they are. SY: Isn't that, I mean, isn't that always the story that like hair salons and barbershops and bars are often where people confess things and tell. It's a very intimate relationship. MC: It is. I mean they're sitting in the chair and it's a one on one with the individual that you're cutting their hair. And you know young people today I think are very comfortable with a female barber or person cutting their hair versus the old school barber that was rough and tough, the tattoos and whatever. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just, I think we've really set a nice atmosphere here at the University. And I think the University's happy with what we've done. I do. SY: And you took over the shop at some point? MC: We did, yes we, boy I think it was 1999 that we've had the contract. SY: And how did that happen? Was that, did you think considering the vibe when you started that they would let you run the show? MC: Well you know it -- again being a contractor was a man's world, and so we took a real big leap to go against the barbers that were in charge, the male barbers that had been in business for a long time. And it took us a couple of rounds to get the contract, but I think again the fact that we were constantly dependable, we were constantly reliable, we were doing the job, we had a good feeling about what we're doing, and I think we got the University's confidence in us as individuals and as employees that we would be able to handle the contract as a business. And I'm hoping that I won over there, you know, ability to think that I would able to be a good business person as well as a man. I think the world grew a little bit in those years. So we've had the contract ever since, yeah. SY: Yeah, so let's talk about, because you arrived when the first female Rooks arrived pretty much-- MC: Yes. 4 SY: And so what did you sort of witness? You sort of witnessed that changing campus. What was their experience like? Did you get to talk to them at all? MC: Well at first there was no conversations, but yeah I mean they were, golly gee those poor girls. I, you know, they would pretty much always be together. I don't think there were a lot them at the start and they pretty much always came in together. And you know what? It's still pretty routine that if one gal down another one will come with her. I think that bond here for the females is still pretty, pretty much there. We do have some regular gals that come in all the time and they're just so comfortable at this stage I mean one is graduating for sure, we cut her hair all the time, that she doesn't bring a friend in. But especially that freshman group, they're coming down they're always with another gal. So, yeah. SY: I guess I'm curious about the role that the haircut plays at Norwich 'cause you're there at the very first moment in that rite of passage. Can you talk about that, about Rook Week and haircuts? MC: You know, the haircut -- you can come into the college, you can sit down and take the test, you can look at kind of what's going on, you can put on the uniform and shine your shoes. But nothing is really completely life changing until you sit in that barber chair and we take your hair off. That is the moment that reality really hits not only the kids but the parents. Because the parents throughout the years on and off have still been around when we're cutting hair and I've seen students cry in my chair. I've seen students just literally almost break down in my chair. Students have left my chair because I say to them, I can tell if they're having a hard time and I give them a moment and it's like, and I tell them, I said, "this is the moment that you really need to decide whether you're gonna stay here and give it a shot or if you want to go back to mom and dad." I said, " because once I take this hair off its gonna be awhile coming back and so if you want a few minutes I'll go get your cadre, you can go over there and just take your time." Because this is life changing right here for these kids. And I've had kids get out of the chair, they've literally left the chair. I've had kids that I just cut their hair and I happen to walk out with them at the time and their parents were standing there and their parents just had, they just didn't even recognize them and then they start crying. So yeah I think that the haircut really is huge people don't think about it but it really plays a huge role in changing the whole mood of what they're doing at that, at that moment. SY: So do they come in, is it a somber atmosphere during Rook Week when they come in there? Are they sort of aware suddenly of the symbolism of it? MC: They come down with their company, and so there they come down. Our shop holds 30 at a time. Our shop is a huge shop so that they can sit down, and we just run them through. The cadre are in charge. The cadre tell them what to do but they're not working them in the shop because we don't allow that. But they're still, it's a very strict, there's no conversations between the kids and the individual beside of them. The cadre has very much in charge as we run these, these freshman through. So it's almost like they're in an assembly line and they really don't have any voice at that moment to just jump out of the chair until I give them the opportunity or my girls give them the opportunity. Because they're afraid to say anything to the cadre up until that point. SY: How do you read it? How do you know when need to tell someone that? MC: Oh you can tell. You can just read the kids. You know, yeah. SY: It's on their faces, their body posture? MC: Sure. They're sitting there and you're like, "Oh this kid's having a hard time, hard-hard time." SY: And have some gotten up and not come back? 5 MC: I think they have. I think they've gotten up and not come back. One of the most terrifying moments was this, this individual that marched to my chair, sat down, I caped them up and you know routinely you do so many haircuts that it just become,s your kind of almost in your own daze at the stage of the game, pushing them through. And I went to grab my, my clipper and almost ready to go to right down the center of their head and I happened to take a second look at them and look at their eyes and they were female. I literally almost had the clipper to the head and I just kind of panicked and I backed off, I shut my clipper off and I just like took a deep breath because I almost went right down to the middle. I mean she just looked so much - the uniform she looked like a male - you know I didn't pay attention to her walking. They all walk stiffly into the chair and she sat there and I just, yeah. And so I still - she was here the 4 years and she finally grew out her hair out, because her hair was short, she had a man's haircut then. And I, you know I honestly said to her I said, "I almost got that Rook haircut on you." She said, "Oh I know." She did not say a word to me, she was so afraid that she never said a word. She would have sat there and let me literally give her a high and tight because that's how terrified they are when they come through our shop. You need to realize that. But she graduated. She graduated and I said, "we got to grow your hair out" [laughs]. SY: I wonder because you seem like such a warm person I wonder what little things you do make them feel little better. It's an assembly line but is there still, like are you aware of attempting to transmit kindness or reassurance in some way? MC: The whole, my whole team does. My whole team's great, yeah. SY: Yeah. Just the smile? Like what is it? MC: Yup, yup. We make them feel welcome and comfortable and I even just they sit there and they're so stiff and I'll just even pat them on the shoulders and say, "Okay take a deep breath, relax, you know. This is a great cut, you're gonna love this. You're not gonna have to shampoo for a year." And I say, "and your pillow, it's gonna stick to the side of your heads, so." And they, and they crack a smile and then you know so you just kind of, yeah. But they're not even breathing when they hit your chair. Not even breathing and that's normal, that's normal for them at that stage. They've been running, they've been you know [inaudible] throughout the week, this is Rook Week. SY: Those aren't even the ones who you tell to get u,p those are just normal [laughs]. MC: Normal ones yes. SY: What about the girls. What control, what are the rules regulating their hair? MC: The girls need to have the hair above like the collar of your jacket or whatever, they kind of want it just above that so that it's not hanging down below like your coat or your sweater or your uniform. They call it a blouse, whatever. So that has to be up, so it either needs to be cut fairly short in the back especially and they also restricting how much, you know the new haircut is kind of long in the front there, they would have to pin that up too so. Or you can have it very long which is most of the gals do and they just put it up every day, and that destroys the hair. So they're constantly coming down because we need to constantly trim those ends, you know. SY: So when -- it seems like you would have to talk to the girls in your chair even during Rook Week because you have to figure out whether they want you to cut it or whether you-- MC: Right. SY: Yeah. 6 MC: Yeah. SY: Yeah, and so you are able to talk to them a little bit? MC: Oh we're able to talk to them at this stage in the game, absolutely. I pretty much every once in a while you get some cadre and they're young too, they're just learning. This is their cutting edge of learning their job, and they're, especially at the beginning, they're feeling the power, you know and that's okay. But they start getting a little aggressive and I look at them and say, "Let's just, when they're in here, they're ours. When they're out there, they're yours." And he just looks at me and he backs off so you know, they're, they, you know. SY: They're not messing with you? MC: No, no they don't and we don't. Every once in a while the kids will sit there waiting and you know they're teenagers basically coming out of high school, and the language will get a little you know and immediately we look at them and say, "Not acceptable in here. This a very G-rated shop, be careful with your language." And they'll immediately apologize. We just don't allow it, just don't allow any of that in the shop. SY: Yeah you're creating a culture? MC: We are creating a culture and you know what? We're creating adults, we're trying start creating adults and they need to realize that this not high school. SY: And that's a question too because you're part of training them also, right? MC: I feel we are. SY: So what are, what are you training them to be? MC: Hopefully training them to be good leaders and good adults. SY: And you, how do you think communicate through the language stuff—are there other ways that you sort of communicate that? MC: Yeah we're very strict in the shop I mean we, they would love to come in throw their backpacks in the chair and throw their coats and their covers over in the care, in the corner and we just don't allow it. So when they come through the door we train them - "There's hangers over there, you will put your backpack over there. You will hang up your jacket or whatever, then you will come over here and you will find your card." We have, we really work hard on getting the whole program in place so that when they walk in at this stage in the game they're so well trained you just see them follow the whole little pattern of getting their haircut, because we don't allow anything else. SY: Because it just would be chaos? MC: Yeah, "You're not gonna throw your coat here that's not, no you're not home. Hangers over here." "Oh yes ma'am." Because we're not doing them a favor by doing that, and we're also not doing our shop a favor. We can't have coats all over the place and then have 20 kids come down. Where are they sitting on the floor? You're gonna throw your coats on the floor? Your backpacks? Let's teach them to be adults. SY: Right. And also you have so many kids going through so quickly. MC: So many kids I think we're doing 1500 on a regular month, that's twice a month that's 3,000 haircuts a month. That's huge. 7 SY: That's huge and what do you, how do you keep it interesting? MC: Well every kid's interesting. Every kid is different. I mean it's just like anything else. I mean you're sitting in front of a typewriter all day, you're sitting in front of a computer all day. I think my job is a lot more fun [laughs], a lot more fun. SY: And it's the connecting to the kids that makes it fun? MC: It is connecting to the kids. It's, it can be a fun shop unlike when I started. We try to make it fun in there. I mean there's a lot of haircuts and a lot of hair to deal with and we have to get, productivity is very important in that shop. We've created systems that were not in place when I started to increase the productivity of the shop. SY: What are your systems? MC: I created a rolodex system which is very backwards still, but it's still very functional. So every kid has a card and they flip through it, and we realized that we needed to create a menu. We had a lot of foreign students at this particular time and trying to understand what they wanted for a haircut took a lot of time out of the haircut. So we took pictures and it was like, we called it the McDonald hair menu, and the tops are certain numbers and the bottoms are certain numbers. You can actually mix and match the tops with the bottoms, and you come up with a 2 number on your card. So a lot of kids get a 5-6 which is a half inch top and a zero on the sides faded up. So the number systems work very, very quickly. It's something we can write on the cards so when the kid flips through his card we know what he's getting for a haircut, he doesn't have to worry about what he's getting for a haircut because he picked this out a while ago. So it increased productivity, doubled it so we could get them in and out. The kids love it because they don't have to remember what they're getting all the time. Because I have people that graduate and they go into a barbershop and they say, "Well I want a 2-6," and the barber is like, "what?" [laughs] SY: How fast can do a haircut? MC: Depending on the haircut, yeah. For fun one time I think I decided that I would see how many haircuts I could get done in a half an hour, and if I remember correctly I believe I got 7 haircuts done in half an hour but they were fast ones. [laughs] SY: Is that the record? MC: I--you know I don't know. We're pretty fast. You'd have to go a long way to find barbers that are faster than we are. But we also we don't cut corners because we do a nice job, so yeah. SY: So I feel like you have a unique perspective in some ways on changes at Norwich over time. What changes have you seen? I mean in the student population, have you seen in the culture of the cadre? You said it was pretty intense when you first got there. What's the, what are the larger shifts? International students. What are the larger shifts that you've seen? MC: Oh boy, I'm hoping that the system that's in place is still working which is the students training the students to become leaders. I, I think that's what the whole school is about. It took me a long time to figure this out. But, you know, I think that we need to continue to take you know the kids come in and I've had individuals that I had lunch with that are, they can't understand why they go through the Rookdom: what purpose does this serve? Why are we taking everything away from them? And it became apparent to me that, you know, if we put these kids in the military what is it that they're fighting for? 8 They're fighting for freedom. How on earth you can fight for something when you've never understood what it's like to loose it in the first place. SY: That's interesting. MC: And, and, and you know it appears as though not a lot of people see this whole program as doing exactly that. That's what this is all about. These kids at this age, which I don't think I could have done when I was 18, lose pretty much their freedom: their cell phones, their freedom, they lose their freedom. But they grow so much from that because they become leaders and they earn their freedoms back, you see. But I don't think half the people understand what it's all about. You can't fight a war for freedom if you don't have any idea what freedom is. SY: I don't even think the trainers have put it that way. I don't think the military formulates it that way. I feel like that's the smartest justification of the system that I've ever heard and I don't think I've heard it anywhere else. [laughs] MC: I tell the kids that and you know what it's like a light bulb going off in their head. They're like getting so upset because, "When are we gonna get Recognized? When are we gonna do this? When are--" I said, "Stop it. This is a short term thing. How are you gonna go fight and risk your life for freedom if you have no idea what it's like not to have it? Lose your freedom?" SY: That's so smart [laughs]. MC: It's just common sense. SY: And when, did you sort of have an 'ah ha' moment when that occurred to you? MC: Oh my gosh, um yeah I don't know, just came to me. I mean it's just like, isn't that what it's all about? SY: I just spilled tea all over myself, just so you know and it's this weird tea that has twigs in it. MC: I see that. SY: I'm having like really a day [laughs]. I'm fine. I'm fine. I just was like, what, why am I like suddenly warm? Oh I spilled tea on myself. Let me go back to what you were saying because that's so interesting. So are there any memorable mo--when you sort of when people say, "Oh what do you do Madonna"? And you're like "Oh I'm actually a barber at Norwich." And they say, "Oh, what's your job like? Tell me some stories." What are the stories you tell people? MC: Oh you know [laughs] that's interesting because being a military barber is probably one of the least most respected professions that people seem to have. And it's, I've come to terms with it over the years because it's just been a pretty constant, almost a bullying type of situation. My co-worker just gets so annoyed with people. But as an example, we went to my husband - he's been at his job for 30 years too and we're at this very nice dinner with people in business, contractors, and all kinds of people. Sat beside this gentleman and came up and he says so, "What do you do?" And I explained to him that I work at a military university and I'm the barber. Well you could almost see a sarcastic chuckle on his face. "Oh well what kind of a job is that? You just stand there and shave heads all day. That's a heck of a job." And he actually verbally said that at the table with my husband's other business associates and so forth. My husband was extremely upset and I felt very bad because I felt as though that was making me look, making him look bad by this guy, you know, really rudely making me look very foolish, like my job was very unworthy, like there's no -- anybody could do that. And I just thought for a moment and my 9 husband was getting ready to, you know, defend me. He's so sweet. And I just stopped him and I looked at the man and I said, "You know," I said, "I really love my job." I said, "My job serves a great purpose at the university that I work at." And I said, "Not only does it serve a great purpose there." I said, "But it's done very well for me." And I said, "And I actually do very well as a contractor at the military university." And he just sort of sat there and didn't quite know what to, what to say about that and afterwards a lady over there she looked at me, she said, "I'm so glad you put him in his place." In other words, you know, he just thought he was something very special and just, you know, but we get that all the time. SY: Really? MC: Yeah, all the time. SY: Why do you think that is? MC: I don't know. I guess they think it's, I don't know they just, even here sometimes I feel as though that we are probably the least respected business or contractors here. Until you need us and then suddenly, "Oh wow we need the haircuts." But everyone else in fact we went to get these rolodex done, this was like recently, and the gal up on UP or Jackman Hall sent an email back to my co-partner letting her know that we were not a priority at this university. SY: That's hurtful. MC: It's, yeah, I mean we're huge, we're doing 3,000 haircuts a month, you know, and we don't ask a lot from the university. We've really focused on getting here and doing our job and, you know, but we do need their help with this rolodex because we don't have any way of getting the students names to get this set up and it's very important we get this set up. And they just that was an email that was sent back that we were definitely not a priority. SY: And you take care of every single student in the Corps. MC: We take care of every single student. SY: Multiple times a month. MC: Multiple times a month. SY: Mhm, huh. MC: Yeah. So it's interesting how people's perspective of the--our work is, and I don't know. SY: But at the same time lots of members of the community who aren't students also end up in your chair, right? And so you often-- MC: They do. SY: You probably cut the hair of the administration sometimes? MC: We do. SY: And does that change the dynamic in the relationship? MC: No I mean they come in, they're great customers, we service all of them, all of them. Any faculty that's in uniform gets served in our shop, you know. They get a haircut. 10 SY: Yeah I would imagine that it would--that maybe that might make you feel more respected at times. Like those relationships? MC: Well it's interesting because a lot of the faculty, you would think that Dave Magida and the president wants that service extended to the faculty because they want their hair to be in regulation with their uniform. So they figure if they offer this in our contract type of deal that they're gonna come down and get their haircut, okay? But it's interesting because especially with the professors, the students we certainly don't expect anything from the students, but the professors because they're getting their haircut for free they think the university, they even won't leave my girl a dollar tip, you know. Which that's not in good taste, you know? So obviously they don't respect. If they respect the fact that this young lady is really cutting their hair and even whatever as the university they should still show some sort of support to the young lady that's done the service to them. And I find that offensive when they're not leaving my girls a dollar for their haircut. They're doing beautiful haircuts on them. SY: Yeah and if you were going to get your haircut in town you would leave a tip for the barber. MC: You would certainly leave a tip for the barber. So I see that as disrespectful. SY: Yeah huh. MC: Yeah. SY: But it also sounds like you've managed not to internalize it. That like you know you do a good job, you feel good about it and mostly you're able to not take on that judgment or disrespect? MC: Yeah, we don't treat them any different. I mean they still come in and we were, you know we do their hair and it's up them, you know. I mean, I feel [coughs] excuse me that if they thought they were paying maybe they don't understand that tip especially for the girl should still be there. SY: Yeah maybe they don't know. There should be like a PR campaign you know what I mean? Like tip your barber [both laugh]. How did you get into cosmetology? What was your, when did you decide that is what you wanted to do? MC: Right out of high school. Yeah I went to college for that right out of high school and then ended up doing music pretty much full time for 10 years. And that's why ended up coming back into it. SY: I was just gonna say you also have a whole other career. MC: Yeah. SY: So can you talk about that a little bit? What is it that you do? MC: Oh music is just wonderful, you know, it's been a great gift. My dad was musician and passed it on and so music has been part of my life. It's been a lot of fun. SY: And you're a fiddler? MC: I am, but I also ran my own band. I've run my own band. I play a lot of different, like seven different instruments, yeah, bass player in my band. But I also wanted to reach out and do as much as I could as far as my profession goes to. So I've served on the board of Barbers and Cosmetologists. I was on the board for 5 and a half years, and they made me chairman of the board for like 3 of those years. I got to go to a barber convention which is really close to [laughs] what is the convention with all those really crazy guys well a barber convention is close to that. 11 SY: Like a Star Trek convention? MC: Like oh my gosh that was such a riot. And then I was chosen to be a subject matter expert and what the subject matter expert does is that go and we create the state boards, national state boards for the barber test. So I, that was kind of interesting to reach out in my field and learn a few more things. I fought for, I went to the legislature because our legislature here in Vermont wanted to combine the cosmetologist and the barber license all in one and call it a go. And I fought for the barbers because that would basically shut down every barbershop in the state, because those cosmetologists would eat them up and spit them out. And I knew that and the only reason he was fighting for it was because he had some cosmetologists that wanted to open up up a barbershop and you can't. The rule, the law says, there's separate licenses and so I had to really go and fight him at the legislature. And we won. So still they're separate licenses so the barber still has his business, and the cosmetologist has her business so. SY: Do you have both licenses? MC: I have both, yes. SY: You have both licenses. Oddly my grandfather is in the Cosmetology Hall of Fame, there's like a weird bust of his head. And who knew Cosmetology Hall of Fame existed? But apparently it does because he used to write the certification exams for cosmetologists in New York State in like the fifties. MC: There you go. SY: But anyway there's literally a bronze bust of his head. So odd [laughs]. MC: How neat is that? SY: It's very cool. Jacob J. Yahm in the Cosmetology Hall of Fame. Um I don't know if I, I feel this was like a short but sweet interview. I'm not sure if I have any more questions. Do you have any other sort of last thoughts about your time at Norwich? Do you plan on working here until you retire? What's next for you? MC: I'm hoping that Norwich is still pretty comfortable with us. I think we're certainly providing the service that they're hoping comes out of that barbershop. I, you know, I plan on hopefully being a contractor here as long as they'll let me. I may not always be the physical one standing behind the chair because as I get older here, it is a very physical job. SY: I was gonna ask about that. MC: So my body's starting to take toll. SY: Is there, are there things, like is it your arms and your wrists? MC: Yeah my arm, I've got you know my elbow is, tendonitis in my shoulder. These clippers are heavy and you're standing. It's really a job doing 3,000 haircuts, pushing that through. This is, you know, this is a huge physical job and so I'm starting to feel that. But that doesn't mean I won't make sure that the person standing behind my chair isn't well trained to take my place so. SY: And you also need to keep, you know, if you hurt yourself cutting hair that also means probably you can't play music right? 12 MC: Right their both pretty physical. The music is not as demanding as this 8 hour, you know, grueling haircutting is. This is a tough one. Twenty year old is perfect in there [laughs]. Pushing 60 not so much [laughs], so yeah. SY: I don't know if I have any more questions. Any other thoughts about women at Norwich and how their transition occurred? You said they seemed scared--did you sort of, did people talk to you? Did they say to you? Were you sort of like a mother confessor a little bit where they talked to you what they were going through? MC: It was so strict back then that no one dared have conversations. So the young ladies wouldn't have dared to confide in me at that stage in the game. But I'm very excited to see how young ladies have grown and they're, they're heading up our university. So I think we've grown a lot. SY: So you've seen them get much more confident? MC: Oh they're confident and they're smart and they're gonna be great leaders. SY: That's fabulous. I don't have any last questions that was terrific and now you still have a couple more minutes on your lunch hour. MC: There we go. [laughs]