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Transcript of an oral history interview with Mark M. Kisiel, conducted by Joseph Cates on 23 January 2017, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Mark Kisiel graduated from Norwich University in 1959; the bulk of his interview focuses on his experiences as a student at Norwich University, his continuing relationship with the university after graduation, and his business career. ; 1 Mark Kisiel, Class of 1959, Oral History Interview January 23rd, 2017 Home of Mark Kisiel, Falmouth, Massachusetts Interviewed by Joseph Cates JOSEPH CATES: Press record and we'll get started MARK KISIEL: Sure. Mm hmm. JC: This is Joseph Cates. Today is January 23rd, 2017. I'm interviewing Mark Kisiel. This interview is taking place at his home in Falmouth, Massachusetts. This interview is sponsored by the Sullivan Museum and History Center and is part of the Norwich Voices Oral History Project. First, tell me your full name. MK: Mark McDonald Kisiel. JC: Okay. When and where were you born? MK: I was born in Springfield, Massachusetts, January 8th, 1938. JC: What Norwich class are you? MK: I'm the class of '59, sometimes referred to as the magnificent class of 1959. JC: Tell me why it's called the magnificent class. MK: Well, it's quite unusual. We have come together through our reunion years and bonded to a point where, at our 50th reunion, we had ninety-eight percent participation in class giving. Our gift was the largest gift ever made for a reunion class in Norwich University. It exceeded twelve million dollars. JC: Oh, wow! Tell me about where you grew up and what you did as a child. MK: I grew up in Springfield, Massachusetts and my parents moved to Longmeadow, Massachusetts when I was in high school, Longmeadow being a suburb of Springfield. My father was a doctor, an orthopedic surgeon in Springfield. My mother was an elementary school teacher as well. I went to public schools through tenth grade. And then, in my junior and senior year in high school, I attended a Jesuit prep school in Lenox, Massachusetts named Cranwell School. Unfortunately, Cranwell School no longer is in existence. However, the property's been turned in to a resort and it's regarded as a first-class resort in the Berkshires. JC: Okay. What made you decide to choose Norwich? MK: I would say I chose Norwich probably by default. I'll tell you why I say that. Going to a Jesuit prep school back in the fifties, the Jesuits wanted you, every student to continue on 2 with a Jesuit-exposed education. I succinctly remember being interviewed by the headmaster of the school, Father Burke, and he said to me, and I remember these words distinctly. He said to me, "Mark, you could go to Holy Cross, Georgetown, or Boston College." Then, he said to me, "You're not smart enough to Notre Dame." I said to him, politely, "Father, I wanted to go to Dartmouth." And, he said to me, "You're not going to Dartmouth." In those days, if you didn't have a recommendation from the headmaster or principal of your high school, there was no way you could get in to any supposedly highly regarded institution. By coincidence, our next-door neighbor in Springfield has gone to Norwich and his parents highly recommended that I take a look at Norwich, which I did, obviously. Applied and was accepted and entered in the fall of 1955 as a young, at that time, seventeen-year old high school graduate. JC: What was it like, that first day at Norwich? MK: I will tell you. It was scary. I had no idea of what I was getting into. It was exceedingly strict. In fact, I felt like I was probably, one could argue, in jail. We didn't make a move, left or right, walk down the hallway in the dorm, walk outside, so forth, without being under scrutiny of upperclassmen who had cadet rank at the time. I remember walking, I believe the tradition still lasts to this day, which is good. You had to walk, basically in a gutter, on the side of the road, or in the streets of campus. JC: Yeah. It's still tradition. What was your major? MK: I majored in English. JC: Okay. Why'd you choose English? MK: I can't really answer that as I think it was probably a default major. A couple classmates of mine selected English as a major, so I kind of went along with them. One of our professors, we used to refer to him as Judge Newbrow, was an English teacher. He was quite a character. I'm glad I selected English as a major. Although, it didn't really contribute to my business career but maybe indirectly it did. JC: Who were your roommates and where did you live on campus? MK: I live, principally I believe, I lived, two of my four years were in Hawkins Hall. I think I might have lived one semester maybe in Alumni Hall but the majority of my time I was in Hawkins Hall. JC: Okay. And who were your roommates? MK: A gentleman named Gary Bergeron was a classmate and was my principal roommate for the majority of my time at Norwich. JC: Okay. Were you a member of a fraternity? 3 MK: Yes. I was. I was a member of Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity and I was happy to have been elected. I was the vice president of that fraternity for about a year and a half. Ed O'Brien, who you just interviewed, you told me, was also a fraternity brother of mine. He was president when I was vice president of Sigma Alpha Epsilon. JC: Okay. Can you tell me about the fraternity? MK: At that time, fraternities were, I believe we had five or six national chapters represented at Norwich. Fraternities were a large part of our social and almost every day of life at Norwich. It was a wonderful outlet for not having to be in uniform because you could be in civilian clothes when you went to the fraternity. It proved to be a large part of my life. I love the, I believe we had probably about sixty or seventy members in our fraternity. I recall, freshman year, we didn't have any freshmen. They were all, we were all sophomore, junior, and seniors members of the fraternity. It was a great outlet for the struggles and rigors of everyday life on the hill, being in uniform. JC: Well, how did you feel when they did away with the fraternities? MK: Quite honestly, I was very disappointed. I felt that they had provided a great social outlet. Every Saturday night, one of the fraternities always had a party and it brought our class together and I felt integrated the whole student body. As I mentioned, you weren't eligible to become a member until your sophomore year. So, we had in our fraternity at Sigma Alpha Epsilon, obviously sophomore, juniors, and seniors. It was a great bonding opportunity. Someone leaves a message on Kisiel's answering machine. JC: They always want to keep in touch with you, don't they? MK: Right. JC: Did you play any sports when you were at Norwich? MK: I did not play any varsity sports. Played intramural sports, intramural hockey principally, but I did not play any, I was not good enough an athlete to play on a varsity team. JC: What activity did you participate in? MK: Well, in addition to being a member of SAE fraternity, I was, let me think. I belonged to the Newman Club. You know, I really can't remember what other clubs I belonged to at the time. JC: What did you do to relax? MK: I would say the greatest outlet was being able to go to the fraternity house which I said, I went to every day after class. It was a great way to commingle with classmates, fraternity 4 brothers and so forth. At the time, I had a girlfriend at Skidmore College and I used to go down to Saratoga Springs, New York quite a bit. That was a great social outlet for me. Obviously, I participated in the parties we had at the fraternity house. Attended the regimental balls and those winter carnival activities, which were a lot of fun. Despite the rigors of military life on campus, I would say that, for the most part, all of our classmates and Corps members enjoyed a very good social life as well. JC: Do you remember any particular songs from your days at Norwich? MK: Well, in addition to our alma mater "Norwich Forever" song, right, every fraternity had their own song and ours was "Come Sing to Sigma Alpha Epsilon." I'm not a good singer so I won't continue those words. JC: Okay. Who were the instructors that were most influential to you? MK: I would say, I had another English professor. His name was Peter Dow Webster. He was also quite a character and I think played a strong influence on my gaining maturity. Also, Loring Hart was in our history department, I believe. He became a subsequent president of Norwich. I would say he had a strong influence on my maturing years there. JC: Okay. What were your favorite and least favorite classes? MK: I'd say some of my, and as I mentioned, I became an English major I think by default, but Peter Dow Webster was kind of a different guy. I don't whether he loved when you wrote stories that involved commingling of sexual activities or whatever. He would thrive on that and wanted you to go further in your thoughts and whatever. He was a fun professor. I would say on the least favorite, I remember taking a, I think I took a chemistry course. That was a challenge. Although my father was a doctor, I didn't inherit those talents and abilities to understand the tables and so forth of chemistry. JC: What do you remember about being a rook? MK: I would say we had, which I don't believe occurs any longer, there was a lot of hazing. I remember doing squats up against the wall with an M-1 rifle across my extended hands. My arms would be parallel to the floor, on which an M-1 rifle was rested across my wrists. You had to be in a full squat with your back against the wall in the corridor of our Hawkins Hall. Being there just and a drill instructor would be yelling at you not to give up, not to give up. Stay there. Hold it. Tight, tight, right, and so forth. That was a challenge. Also, for the least infraction of any rules, you got charged with what they call tours. I don't if they call them still. They probably do. They call them tours today. I marched a lot of tours around the parade ground. In those days, the parade ground was exceedingly barren. All the trees that you see there today were not there when I was a freshman. It was just one barren, open landscape, from one end of the campus to the other. JC: I was going to ask did you ever get into any trouble and what for? 5 MK: Oh, I got in trouble. Yeah. I got in trouble. Probably the most serious thing I got in trouble for was after, between junior and senior, we went to summer camp and I was going to get a commission in armor. So, we went to Fort Knox, Kentucky and one night we were out, several of my fraternity brothers and I were out. We were out too late. Upon our return back to our barracks, we told a story of what happened and it really was not a correct story. As a result, found out that we told the story of what happened. I was scheduled to be a company commander my senior year. After that, I was busted and I was back to a private. Upon return to campus, there were three of us that were involved in this situation. In fact, we were out with one of our military science Norwich professors. One could say we covered his butt because he told us what to do, which was not the right thing to do. Anyway, he since, I understand, long passed away so anyway. That was probably the most difficult thing of being involved with having a problem. JC: Speaking of summer camp, Ed told me to ask you what happened on the way down to summer camp. MK: So, we left, Gary Bergeron, my roommate, Ed O'Brien, and I left right here in Cape Cod. My parents had a house in South Yarmouth. So, we started our trip to Fort Knox, Kentucky first having a party at my parents' house here in South Yarmouth. Had some women over for the duration of a night and so forth. Then, we set off the next day and we drove not straight to Fort Knox. We drove down to, I think it was Fayetteville, North Carolina where we visited the home of a gal that I had been dating, seeing a little bit. I think she went to Endicott Junior College at the time. We arrived at this unbelievable plantation and Bergeron and O'Brien were, they looked awful. I looked awful. We'd been driving for two days and were met by the butler for the family who opened my doors. I pulled in underneath the portico of this unbelievable Southern plantation. Then, we were greeted by her parents and we stayed for two days. We never saw them again after that brief greeting. The three of us stayed in a converted slave shack that had been turned into a guest house. I'm sure that on our departure her father was very happy to see us go and probably hoped to never see us again. I had a 1950 Oldsmobile convertible. Everybody was, at that time, probably still do today, used to call their cars different things. My car was called "The Green Seducer." Laughs. Anyway, I don't know if you want to publish that. Fun times! JC: Ed also said to ask you, "Whatever happened to the hearses?" MK: Well, one of our fraternity brothers had a beautiful hearse. It was a 1938 Packard hearse. It was in perfect condition. Ed O'Brien, Gary Bergeron, and I owned a '36 LaSalle hearse. We bought for, I don't know. I don't think we paid a hundred dollars for it. Occasionally, we used to drive it down to Saratoga Springs, New York. It was a standard shift vehicle and had a clutch that used to slip all the time. And so, going up and down the hills of Vermont sometimes it would barely make the hill even though you might have had a sixty mile an hour head start to try to get up the hill. At graduation, we ended up selling the hearse, and I don't think we got more than a hundred bucks back for it, to a 6 couple of our junior fraternity brothers. Whatever happened to it after we sold it, I don't know. JC: Ed said he couldn't remember what happened to it either. MK: I don't know what happened to it. Yeah. JC: What do you think was the hardest part of attending Norwich? MK: I would say the rules and regulations which kept you somewhat, I'd say, confined to campus, certainly in freshman year, very difficult. I remember going home at Thanksgiving time. My head had pretty much been still shaved off and seeing some of my other friends who went to more civilian colleges. I'm thinking to myself, "What am I doing at a place like Norwich?" In the end, it all worked out very, very well for me. I was very pleased to stick it out. To this day, I'm very proud of the institution and what it's did for me in my life. The qualities and so forth, the development of good character and responsibility, all those things that Norwich teaches you, I think I embodied to this day. JC: What did the motto "I Will Try" mean to you as a student? MK: Well, I would say "Never Give Up" and that's what it means. If you believe in something, persevere to its end. I think "I Will Try," it's a great motto. One that means to you "Never Give Up." JC: Has that changed since you've gotten older, what you thought of "I Will Try"? MK: No. In fact, my wife says I'm too persistent a lot on a lot of things and if I believe in something that is right and can be accomplished, to this day. I'm known in my family as the last to give up. So, "I Will Try" has been embedded in my whole life, my business life, my personal life, and so forth. JC: Okay. What does Partridge's idea of citizen soldier mean to you? MK: Well, I think that it embodies the spirit of really what being an American is, that you behave in a way that you show that you're proud of your country and that you're willing to defend its freedoms. I think being both a citizen in private life and being a soldier, the combination of developing talents in those two respected areas and merging them together provides for being a better person. JC: Do you remember any funny stories about life or people at Norwich that you can tell? MK: One of our fraternity brothers, and sadly, he passed away just about a year and a half ago, Pierson Mapes, was an unbelievable class clown and a great friend of mine right up to the day that he passed away. He was a guy that had developed a tremendous amount of respect among the administration at Norwich. He was the kind of person who, because of his personality and size, he was about six-foot five, he could get away with absolute 7 murder. Even to this day, he was famous for blowing his bugle at all kinds of different events. He blew his bugle at our fiftieth reunion. I don't want to pursue any more on the stories and whatever. JC: I understand. What did you do after graduation? MK: The year I graduated, 1959, the U.S. government was offering six-month only active duty opportunities and then, seven-and-a-half-year commitment in the Reserves. I knew that I didn't want to pursue, as a career, being in the Army. So, I elected to take the, after graduation and being commissioned second lieutenant, I elected to do the six-month tour. I think the reason being they offered me the six-month tour, there were tremendous number of second lieutenants graduating from ROTC programs around the country. We had too many second lieutenants. So, they offered this reduced commitment prior to the, I think it was classes of '58, '59, and '60 probably offered that. This is pre-Vietnam era. I took advantage of that. Went to Fort Knox for six months and then, returned back to Springfield, Massachusetts. Actually, at that time, it was Longmeadow. Started to look, figure out what I was going to do for work and had a couple interviews with some small companies in Springfield. Then, by coincidence, the brother-in-law of the gentleman who had gone to Norwich that recommended my parents said I should look at Norwich, he was with a real estate firm in Boston. He was leaving that firm called Cabot, Cabot, Forbes and moving to a firm called Perini Construction. So, I interviewed with him and he said to me, he said, "Mark, if you wanted to go up to Toronto, Canada, you can go up there and go to work for this guy. We just bought a big piece of land outside of Toronto." In fact, almost bought the whole town, all the vacant land in the town, and were going to develop a big industrial park, planned a shopping center, residential development and so forth. I thought, "Wow, great opportunity. Why not?" He said, "I'll pay you five thousand dollars a year. So, you go up there and meet up with just two other people in the office and give it a shot." I didn't have any attachments. I was fortunate. My parents had given me a brand-new Pontiac convertible, 1959 Pontiac convertible. So, I had a nice car. I got in the car. Drove from Springfield to Toronto, Canada, where I spent a couple years up there. And then, returned to the Boston area. Stayed with Perini for another six months or so and then moved on with other real estate opportunities, commercial real estate opportunities in Boston. JC: Okay. How did your training at Norwich prepare you for life? MK: Well, I'd say "I Will Try" is a strong backbone to developing a character. I would say the importance of honesty, importance of hard work, importance of respecting others' opinions and thoughts, and helping others. All those things, I would say that are Norwich values probably contributed to my well-being. JC: Do you think your professional life would have been different had you not been a Norwich graduate? MK: You know, I really don't know whether that might have been different. To be honest with you, I've been very lucky and I think having the opportunity to go to work with the Perini 8 Group in Toronto was lucky. Whether or not that would have been any different, I don't know. JC: Has being a Norwich graduate opened doors for you that might not have otherwise been opened? MK: I don't think so but you never know. I've enjoyed obviously being, still remain connected to the University. I've got friends all over the United States who are, one way or another, connected to Norwich. Been exposed to probably of things that I normally wouldn't have gotten exposed to. Who knows? JC: Do you think Norwich graduates have a special bond that other military and civilian institutions lack? MK: I would say yes. Definitely would say yes because of a lot of friends that I have, none of them, aside from my wife, my wife also went to Skidmore as well. She has remained very involved in Skidmore activities. But my other male friends, they don't have the commitment to their alumni organizations or actually with their classmates. I've got a number of friends that went to Harvard. They are basically uninvolved with Harvard even at their reunions. Don't even attend their reunions. I think I attend every five years certainly and more often than that occasionally, reunions since I graduated. The class is unique and as I mentioned earlier, on our fiftieth, we had ninety-eight percent participation. Our class has really bonded close together which is great to this day. Back when we were students, you know, we all belonged to different, the majority of us belonged to different fraternities but yet, since graduation, we've really bonded as a class. JC: Have you been involved with Norwich since you graduated? MK: I have. I was fortunate to be asked to become a member of board of trustees. It's now about, I believe, fifteen years ago when that occurred. I was on the board of trustees for twelve years, a wonderful experience. Probably one of the best experiences in life that I had. Loved being a member of the board and being intricate in its involvement. I was chair of the development committee for, I think, five years when I was a board member. I got tapped to be the co-chair of the capital campaign that's currently underway and realigned my responsibilities, at the moment, where I'm a vice-chair of the capital campaign with Joel Kobert taking over as being chair of the capital campaign, rightfully so. JC: Okay. Do you stay in touch with your classmates a lot? MK: I do. I do. We, I would say, there isn't a month that goes by that where some communication from one of our classmates and so forth. As I mentioned, we're a very close class. After a five-year reunion, a year doesn't go by when we're not starting to organize for our next five-year reunion. That's already underway right now for our sixtieth, which is coming up in 2019, the two hundredth anniversary of the school. Coughs. Excuse me. 9 JC: What advice would you give a rook today about surviving and thriving at Norwich? MK: Let me get a glass of water. Would you like a coffee or anything? JC: I'm fine. MK: Oh, you're fine. Want some water? JC: I'm fine. MK: Okay. JC: Thank you, though. MK: My wife and I have had this cough going for a couple weeks. JC: Oh, goodness! MK: We thought we were on the tail end of it and I think it's coming back. So, Joe, what was your last question? JC: What advice would you give a rook about how to survive and thrive at Norwich? MK: Stick to it! Absolutely, stick to it. The rewards will be significant and you will never regret being, just stick it out. I know it's difficult but it's short-lived. When you're undergoing the experience, I'm sure you think, "Wow! When is this ever going to get over?" But perseverance, just stick to it and you'll never regret having done that. It will make you a better person in the long run. JC: Did you have any relatives that attended Norwich? MK: I did not. JC: What would you say your proudest moment at Norwich would be? MK: I would say that our collective effort to raise the perception, the worldwide perception of Norwich and how it stands in the global economy, building it up, the expansion of the campus, the expansion of the student body. I'm very proud of where the school stands in academia today. I think that's occurred as a direct result of President Schneider's leadership. We've come a long, long way in the last twenty-three or twenty-four years so I'm very proud of where we are today. JC: Can you tell me a little bit more about being a trustee? MK: Well, I also served on the investment committee. Being a trustee, it's a great responsibility because a trustee is charged with contributing and directing the future of 10 the institution. We're responsible for its well-being. Taking that responsibility is a very, very serious matter. I was very pleased to serve with, I believe, at the time, we had approximately twenty-seven, twenty-eight trustees and all with varying degrees of talent and all with a commitment to further the well-being of Norwich. It was a great experience working with them. I'm proud of the talents that are on the board, certainly when I was on. I know, to this day, the commitment that they all have. Everybody is pulling in the same direction. I was very proud to be asked and to serve on the board of trustees. JC: Is there anything else you'd like to add or something we haven't talked about that we should? MK: No. Joe, I'd say that again to emphasize the school has made tremendous strides under President Schneider's leadership and holds great promise for continuing. I know he's planning on retiring in 2020. I'm sure we will have a great cadre of potential individuals who will succeed him and continue on the legacy that he's established. Can't believe the school's been around for two hundred years and I think it's got great promise going forward for the next two hundred years. JC: All right. If there's nothing else? MK: That's it. JC: I'll press stop. Thank you very much. MK: Okay. All right, Joe. End of recording.