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Transcript of an oral history interview with Reinhard M. Lotz, conducted by Sarah Yahm at Norwich University in Northfield, Vermont, on 10 April 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Reinhard Lotz graduated from Norwich University in 1960; the bulk of the interview focuses on his subsequent military career in the U.S. Army. ; 1 Reinhard M. Lotz, NU 1960, Oral History Interview April 10, 2015 Sullivan Museum and History Center Interviewed by Sarah Yahm SARAH YAHM: Could you introduce yourself on tape? RON LOTZ: Yeah, my name's Reynard M. Lotz, they call me Ron. And I'm living in St. Louis, Missouri at the time. I had 30 years in the army and retired in 1990. So that means I'm the class of 1960. So again, it means that I'm in my 77th year. SY: Seventy seventh year, congratulations. So where were you born? RL: I was born in Jamestown, New York in 1938. SY: Where is Jamestown? RL: Jamestown is a town that I spent about four months in and then I really grew up in Waterbury, Connecticut. That was an industrial town, blue collar town, brass center of the world during the 19 -- actually up until after the war, until the 1950s. I can remember World War II and the blackouts. I can remember going by the factories that used to run 24 hours a day seven days a week and all the machines click clacking away. And they were making shell casings and that for the war effort. SY: And what were your parents doing during the war? RL: Well my mother was a stay at home mom. I had a sister. And my father ran the F.W. Woolworth Company, five and ten cent store there in town. And so when I was growing up I started working for my father when I was eight years old. And my father would pay me out of his own pocket. SY: Really? RL: Yeah, just because I wanted to earn some money and then I also did things like wash cars for 50 cents and mow lawns for 50 cents. So I was an entrepreneur. SY: I was just going to say, you were a little entrepreneur. Excellent and so when you were a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up? RL: You know it's a funny thing, I had some likes, but I never knew I would follow those. But I love military history. I love to read. And when I was at a very young age, I took my mother's library card and went into the adult section and got books to read. SY: You were one of those -- hold up, I got to close that door because of the sound of the vacuum is much louder on tape. RL: I understand.2 SY: Hey there. F2: Hello. SY: I'm doing interviews and the vacuuming is super loud. Do you know who's vacuuming and why? F2: No idea, but (inaudible) [00:02:31]. SY: OK, well I'll see you tomorrow. We'll just have to deal with the vacuuming. OK so you took the library card and you went -- RL: Into the adult section and got books and read them. I was one of those kids that loved to read and military history was one of my passions you might say. SY: I ask this to everybody actually, did you play war as a kid? RL: Yes, in the sandbox outside my back door. We had a sandbox. And I had plastic soldiers from that timeframe and I used to dig caves and castles and machine gun pits and the whole bit. SY: And was it World War II in your mind, was it World War I, was it the Civil War, was it the Revolutionary War. RL: Well it was World War II because I grew up in that timeframe and that was the thing that was most prevalent at the time. And during that time, you're going to grammar school, if you turned in newspaper and depending on how many bundles, et cetera, et cetera, you get stripes. I don't know if they call that PTA or whatever but there was an emblem you could put on your sleeve on your jacket with stripes on it depending on how much you collected and contributed to the war effort. SY: Interesting. Wow, OK, so the war was very much a part of your childhood. So how did you end up deciding to go to Norwich? RL: Well I went to a prep school, Mount Hermon, which was in Massachusetts, northern Massachusetts. But it was a prep school that part of your tuition was paid with working eight hours a week. And so when I went there I started off in the farm working with dairy cows. And then my second year I was groundskeeper and my third year building cleaning. And the epitome of my career at prep school was that I was a waiter in the dining facility which gave you a lot more free time and you became the friend of a lot of people who liked to sit at your table because you would make sure that you were in the kitchen, the first to get the food, et cetera, et cetera, and they always had second helpings. So I was at Mount Hermon and I applied to three colleges. One I was put on a waiting list, one I was rejected, and the other was Norwich University. Now I was a C+ student. So -- SY: Even with all that reading?3 RL: Oh with all that reading. My reading skills were far superior to my age, but the point being is that I came to Norwich and there was a lieutenant colonel -- no, he wasn't a lieutenant colonel, he was a first sergeant or sergeant major at that time. He was lieutenant colonel my freshman year. But he took me around the school and so impressed me with his attitude towards the school plus also how he treated me as a person that when I left I told my parents that's where I wanted to go. Now you have to realize too at that time all of us had to have a military obligation. Either you went in for six months, then the reserve or you went for two years active duty and that. So we were going to have to go into the military anyway and I loved military history. And when I came to Norwich University I just kind of fit in you might say. SY: Yeah, so what was your experience like as a rook? A lot of people have described a harsh awakening at that moment. Were you prepared? RL: I guess since I've been away to prep school and been away from home and that that I was able to adapt a lot easier maybe than those who had not been. I took it all with a grain of salt. I said these are things you're going to have to put up with so keep your mouth shut and grin and bear it. SY: Now were there some kids -- I know there were a lot of kids who washed out, it was like 51% or something in your class. Dick did the math. He told me. But do you remember, were there kids who got targeted? Do you remember hazing or was it mostly just like this is just something we need to get through, this is an elaborate game? RL: I think that there's always a certain amount of hazing. Hazing not in a real rough or negative sense, but hazing in the sense that maybe one guy or several people just maybe don't fit the mold so therefore they might get a little bit more of harassment than you did. Or maybe that you have adapted and try to do what the cadet is telling you to do, therefore the heat's off you. And we always used to try to help those cadets or rooks who were having a tough time. Heck, we helped polish their shoes. We made sure their uniforms were pressed. Some kids just weren't capable of accomplishing all that. And then you have to say too, I think today at Norwich the qualifications academically and everything have improved a great deal. Now you have SATs and ACT scores. Back in those days, it was based upon submission and also the recommendation from your teachers and of course your grades. But Norwich is a totally different school today versus back in the 1950s. SY: Yeah, but that's interesting. So you do remember helping kids out. RL: Oh yeah, absolutely. And some of the rooks harassed the rooks. I mean it wasn't just upper classmen. But it was sometimes -- it's a predator type of atmosphere and I think it's human nature. You just have to be careful of that and aware of it and make sure that it doesn't happen if you can do something to stop it, you see. SY: Yeah, and that's always the question is how do you keep it from crossing that line. RL: That's right. And it's how strong a person you are. If you're a very strong person with morals and with firm beliefs, then you try to do something to change that, but it's the 4 method in which you change that that's the key. If you're abrasive or in your face or something, the person that you're talking to or trying to get something changed, it's not going to work. You have to be able to balance it out and approach it in the right way in order to get results. And I learned this at Norwich. I used that all through my army career, is to approach something -- always treat the other person like you would like to be treated yourself. When you had a problem with a person, you sometimes had to be tough and some outright terminate his career or whatever, but it sometimes had to be done. It's not the fact that you wanted to do it, but the fact is that they broke the rules and there's nothing that you're going to repair it. You've had it. SY: Do you remember any moments at Norwich when you learned that lesson, any of those like difficult leadership dilemmas? It was a long time ago. RL: Well it's that I remember the good days. I remember one rook who he was never going to make it at Norwich because his intellect was to the point where you would say that it was at a level that was not college level, let me put it that way. Yet we tried to prep him for exams and things like that and we tried but he was finally eliminated because of his academics and he just couldn't do what had to be done. SY: It was almost cruel to keep him in the system. What part of the highs that you remember from your time in Norwich? RL: The comradery. SY: Had you experienced that before at boarding school? RL: No, I don't have friends -- my boarding school was something that I survived it. Academic-wise and everything else, it was a challenge for me. I was actually in a school that I was doing college work and so that prepared me though for Norwich because when I came to Norwich I was fully prepared to face the academics and know how to handle all that. So I got to say, that's a big plus. But when I got to Norwich, my relationships with the school and the profs and everything else, I remember the PMSNT, I remember those people who worked in the PMSNT office. I remember Major Pekoraro who was the engineer major there. And I was a business major but I joined the engineer society because of this major because he was a Korean War veteran who was a POW. And he was a role model. He was tough but just and just the type of person you felt you'd like to be around and learn from. There was a guy named Hardy who was a captain. And I think he had a relative or a brother or something that was going to Norwich at the time and he was an armored guy and he was a friendly, nice person. And then there was -- and some of the names here, I can't -- there was a lieutenant colonel there who also was a very role model. These guys were role models. The PMSNT was the tough guy, didn't have much association with him. But at Norwich I learned, because of our social life with our fraternities and things like that, it gave us an outlet and we had a closer relationship. And I think the class of 1960 has done amazingly well keeping abreast of each other and I've lost in the past year several of my classmates of whom I talked to before they passed on, just several days before they passed on, from the point that I wanted to say goodbye. It's a tough thing to do. You have to realize now that I'm on a 5 shortlist and those guys were important. And I think our class is like that. But Norwich has been a great influence on me because it gave me the opportunity for the leadership positions, I was a cadre member every year. My senior year I was -- we had the freshman battalion at that time and I was made the executive officer in charge of all the academics for all the freshmen. So I had to have academic boards. And we met on those with records of those cadets who were not achieving the standard that needed to be to graduate. So we would review their records and then recommended action, help, tutoring, or whatever it needed to try to get that kid back on track to get the rook, get them through that first year. SY: Do you think that type of dedication to the wellbeing of your rooks made you a better leader in the military later? RL: I think it did, but let me relate something that happened at summer camp. I was in the honor tank platoon and I also was -- SY: Hold on a second. It's like we're crossed here, it's like star crossed, you know what I mean. RL: I don't know if you can -- SY: I'm going to see if I can get Heather. (inaudible) [00:15:00] They're redoing the library. But it's like if somebody's talking in the hallway -- but they're right over there. She's going to ask. If she doesn't, we might just need to shell this as well into the back. RL: Are we going to have repeat all this again? SY: No, I can edit it together. But I want people to be able to listen to actual sound clips that don't involve listening to somebody -- RL: You can say that's combat. (laughter) You can hear the guns in the background, you know. SY: Exactly, this is so authentic that I took my recording all the way into whatever. Did Heather work her magic? I think she might've worked her -- RL: No, I don't think she's had time to -- and I don't think they're going to stop. They're on a time schedule and what's going to happen is they're going to just drive you nuts and have you do it. SY: You know this happens, they don't do work for days and I don't know their schedule and I can't ever get it. And then I'm like, "Great, they're done for a while." Then I bring someone in. This has happened to me like two or three times. RL: Well let me think. Want to try? SY: Yeah, let's keep talking.6 RL: If we can't maybe I can do something tomorrow, if I can. SY: Yeah, if you can you can pop by and if not, you're going to be back in October. RL: OK, we were talking about ROTC and summer camp. And I went to summer camp at Fort Knox -- thank you. SY: You're awesome. RL: And when I was there, we had two companies, A and B, and I was company A. And we had a lot of Norwich grads were there, plus VMI, plus Citadel, plus from all over, from all the ROTC units. And this was at Fort Knox. And there were two incidents that I remember vividly. One is that on a Saturday afternoon in 90 degree heat in my khaki uniform with an M1 on my shoulder, I was walking guard duty around the barracks that we lived in, World War II barracks. And the rest of the cadets were getting ready to go off because after twelve o'clock on Saturday they could go into town and do all that and I had the guard duty. I was on guard. And so I was walking around the barracks and one of the tac officers came up to me from Norwich and I reported to him and the general orders and the whole bit. And I was soaking wet. And he says, "Well how's it going?" And I turn to him and I said and I was facing him and I said, "Well sir I'm going to tell you that this has taught me one lesson, that I will never go into this man's army as a private." And he laughed. Well let me tell you, I was very serious about that. And then it came to where we were closing out and we were going to rate our contemporaries in the barracks and that. One of my classmates came up to me and said, "Ron," he says, "Don't you worry." He says, "Me and the boys are going to take care of you." And what he meant was that of all the Norwich guys and all the guys in that barracks that these guys had gotten together and rated me number one. SY: And why were you rated number one. RL: Because I think they liked me. You can't question that because you never are actively trying -- you're treating people the way you want to be treated. And you want to be a leader in the sense that you do the right thing at the right time and for the right reason. But when he came up and told me that and there were some pretty high powered Norwich guys in the cadet corps and they were going to be -- running the regiment that coming year. And so when it all came out there were two guys ranked top in armor ROTC summer camp. One was from VMI and one was from Norwich. It was me and one other guy. And so we went up head on head competition and the guy from VMI won out, which is fine because I went in there kind of naïve and I didn't know what to expect. But the point being was that I had the opportunity, Norwich had the opportunity, and Norwich did well at summer camp. And that was all that was important to me. So those things impacted on me and also the professors like Loring Hart who later became president of the university, he was my English teacher. And I was the news editor on the Guidon. And we had some West Point cadets come up because we had fraternities at that time, they said to us, "Boy do you guys have it great here," because of the social life and everything. And that was the greatest thing about Norwich. Norwich has always been about the citizen soldier. Now this is before we had civilian students, so you got to 7 realize that what I'm talking about here is my time at Norwich as a cadet corps, the citizen soldier. They trained us to go out into the world and be a civilian but if the country needed us, to come back and to serve our country. And that was our whole philosophy. SY: And I think the other element of the citizen solider that I find compelling is the idea that you're a thinking citizen with a trained mind and you also know how to follow orders, right? RL: Absolutely. SY: And so I'm wondering as you sort of went on in the army if that training as a citizen soldier ever got you into trouble. Did those two things ever clash, your moral code, your ethics, your trained mind, and, "Do this?" RL: Well I think it could and maybe did. It's like yes and no. There's only two answers. There's a no or a yes and there's nothing in between. Now therefore you become very moralistic, moral, saying, "OK, that's wrong." But in the real world, there's a middle line there and you have to try to come to grips with that. Sometimes you can't stomach it. I mean sometimes it's either yes or no and that's it. I find that too many times people are not willing to say yes or no, they're willing to kind of muddy the water and go with a middle direction and that may not be the best way to do. And sometimes, and this I shouldn't probably say, but I say sometimes that affects our policies and the way we look at combat and the way we look at what's happening out there. SY: Was there ever a time when you said no? Was there ever a time you sort of refused an order? RL: Refuse an order? SY: Where you're like, "I don't think this is right." RL: No, I have found in life that you never -- if you're given an order and you're in a public place and that, don't ever say no, ever. The time to say no is after in private because I have learned that commanders do not want to be criticized in front of their troops or in front of a group. And they will cut you off at the knees. And I understand, some people didn't. You don't get in an argument if you're briefing and the commander is saying something that you may not agree with or is trying to correct you, you let them do it. Point being is you correct it after the briefing or whatever. And if he still does not accept your evaluation of such and such, then you let it go. Now to say that you always do what you're told to do, yeah you better watch out because if you're told to do by the commander and he comes back and checks and it's not done, you're going to lose your job. But if you're told to do something and find a better way to do it, that's a different story. So you have to think. It's not just those things, yes sir two bags full. It's the point is, "Yes sir," and think about, then how to get it done. If it's an impossible thing to do, and I ran across this when I was a battalion commander, and it was during a timeframe where we were faced with cuts in the budget and we weren't getting the right maintenance equipment and things like that. And my troops were living in World War II barracks where in the wintertime we had to almost wrap the whole building in cellophane 8 in order to keep the wind out and the cold out. And we had oil furnaces that sometimes went belly up. And in the summer time my troops were dragging their mattresses outside and sleeping in the street because it was so hot inside. And I had a confrontation with my brigade commander, support command commander. And I went into his office and told him I did not have to be motivated by his letter of reprimand. And he looked at me and he says, "Is that all?" And I said, "Yes sir." "You're dismissed." And I walked out. And these are World War II barracks and one of the clerks had called the other battalion commanders and they came running to the support command headquarters. And they said, "What did you do? Why did you do a dumb thing like that?" He says, "All of us have gotten these letters of reprimand," but this is the way the colonel commanded his troops with giving them letters of reprimand to light fires under them. Well I was not -- if somebody had told me this before, maybe I would've been a little mellow, but I wasn't. And I was just stubborn enough to go in and confront him. And I'm not encouraging people to do that, think it out, let it cool off before you do something. But from that day on, that commander and I had a great relationship. SY: He respected you? RL: He and I would sit down on a Saturday morning because we were working six days a week, sometimes seven days a week. And this isn't peace time now. And he would say, "OK." And with the problems that he knew were happening with the battalion, he would say, "OK." And then he would write notes to that battalion commander for maintenance or admin for people. He'd tell them I want so and so and so done. Or he'd look at me say, "That's your responsibility. You take care of it." And you damn well better take care of it because he was giving you support but you were responsible for all this, now you get it done. And when he left, years and years later, I was at Arlington National Cemetery visiting the grave of my mother-in-law. And my wife and I walked up the hill. This is just below where the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is. And as I walked up and went onto the road, right across that street was a gravestone, a major general, who had been my support command commander. And I have done a composite book for all three of my children of my military record and in there I positively made this statement of this incident where he gave me a letter of reprimand. And what I said is that if I ever have to go to war, I want to go to war with this man because I knew that that was a man that I respected, that was a man that I knew he could do what he said he could do and he demanded that of his troops and he wouldn't take a "No." When he said, "Do it," you well knew it was to your benefit to do it. He had served three tours in Vietnam. He was highly decorated. He had been an enlisted man and then went to the prep school and then went to West Point. It was a guy I respected. SY: You trusted him. RL: Yeah. And you knew that he'd take care of you. But in order to survive in the battlefield, you had to learn and you had to do what he said because he had the experience. Now when you got the experience, you see, and then he would rely upon you to get the job done. But he'd tell you what to do and then it was up to you to do it. And how you did it, that was up to you.9 SY: Yeah, that's interesting. So let's rewind a little. So you finish up Norwich and you commission. And where do you go, what do you commission? RL: Well after I got my commission I went to -- because my eyes were not good enough for combat arms, I was commissioned in the transportation corps, but I had to serve three years in combat arms, that was the rule. So they sent me to Fort Benning. And I went to infantry officer basic course. I went to airborne school and then I went to ranger school. And if you ever need any stories about those schools, back in those days, I could tell you some that were -- again, it's one of those things where it is rough, but boy oh boy, you got to roll with the punches and you can have some good belly laughs out of it. SY: Well tell me one of them. RL: Well down in Florida during the jungle training, they kept you awake. They kept you on constant patrol, patrol, patrol. They wanted you to be exhausted, to see how you would react and how you could do it. Well we kept going out and out on patrols and we had a plan and usually we went out at night time, at night patrols. And I was the last guy in the patrol and I carried an M1 rifle. And we had these little florescent things attached to our cap where you can see the guy in front of you so you could follow him. And we were going through the swamps and there was a log there and I stepped over a log. And I took a step off the log and I went up to my waist in mud. And I looked around and there was nobody there. The guys had kept on going. They didn't know I was stuck in the mud. So here they are and you're not trying to shout or anything, but luckily the guy in front of me looked behind and didn't see me and sent the word up to halt for a minute. He came back and he had to pull me out of the mud or I would've been there to this day. And the fact is that we got through all this and we did all this and we were in the mountains one time and I had the automatic rifle slung across my neck and this is with the ammunition pouches and everything. We're walking up this mountain road and they said take a break. And I was on the left hand column, so I went off to the side of the road and just squatted to lean, I thought against a bank. Well there was no bank. And I went over head over heels down the side of this mountain and came up flat against a tree with my feet up in the air. And I wasn't hurt and I got myself out of that. So I called back up onto the road. Guys hauled me up. And we had a good chuckle about that. But it was stupid instances like that. They weren't funny to anybody else, but in our state of mind they were. And you never forget them. SY: Yeah, absolutely. So you do all of those different schools and then where's your first placement? RL: My first assignment was in Germany with the First of the Fifteenth Infantry Company B. That was the company that Audie Murphy served in during the Second World War. And as you know he was the most decorated of our military heroes. And at the time I arrived we were a straight infantry. We walked everywhere. We weren't mechanized. And while I was there, I was there a year and a half in Bamberg, Germany, and our mission was we would deploy to -- if the Russians came through the Fulda Gap to delay them as long as we could until the armor could move up to confront the enemy. So ours was the delaying action. Well while I was there, we became mechanized with armored personnel 10 carriers. But during that time we didn't have them, we would walk to training areas one way, either in the morning or walk back in the afternoon and be trucked out in the morning or be trucked back in the afternoon, one of them. But we walked one way because there was a gas shortage at that time. So periodically an infantry platoon was in our company was sent out to what they call a forward position, an infantry platoon plus an engineer platoon. And we had a cantonment area out there, barracks and all. And it was our job, we stayed in communication with the base, that if the balloon did go up and the Russians did come across then we had certain missions to protect the engineers in blowing bridges and et cetera, et cetera. And that's what our job was. And my job out there was to call unannounced alerts, usually early in the morning, and then the guys all had to jump, get dressed, and in the trucks, and gone out of the cantonment area to their designated positions. Now we did that for a year and a half and then because I was a transportation corps officer and had served my time in the combat arms, I was sent to Berlin, Germany. At that time it was a walled city. They were still building some of the wall. And it was isolated. There were four sections, French, British, American, and Soviet. And the Soviet section was walled in and you could only go -- usually you hear, "Checkpoint Charlie." Checkpoint Charlie was a real point in the wall with barbed wire and everything. Now I understand it's just like a block of concrete or something in the road. Well back then, it was real life. And I saw places where refugees had tried to climb the wall and had been terminated, had been killed. SY: So you saw their blood on the wall? RL: Well you knew where they were because the bodies had been taken away and we knew where they had tried to get across. But at that time I was a train commander and as a train commander I took the train from Berlin to Helmstedt which was in the western zone through the Russian zone. And we had to stop the train in Marienborn for a Soviet checkpoint. We wouldn't deal with East Germans. We didn't recognize the East Germans. We dealt with the Russians only. That was the politics of the time. And a Russian officer would be there. I had an interpreter and we would check every document for every person that was on the train. And sometimes you could tell when tensions were high the Russian officers would be really SOBs and when tensions were not high then they were more friendly. But there were always a couple of Russian officers who were SOBs regardless of what. However, I did that for a good year and at the same time I had a good buddy who had been in the infantry in one of the other battle groups in the same town, had been my roommate in Bamberg, Germany where we had been stationed, who reverted to the MP corps and came to Berlin and was riding the freight trains, the same route, everything else, but on a different track. But he was in charge of the MP detail that was on the freight trains. And I remember one time we got stopped in the middle of the Russian zone and I looked out my window of my passenger train and there was the freight train and there was my buddy. "How are you doing?" We put the window down, we'd chit chat before one of the trains moved on. He was going west and I was going east. But there were times like that and Berlin was -- SY: Were there any really high tension moments that you had?11 RL: Well yeah it was because you didn't know how they were going to react. I mean they could be real SOBs or they could be -- the thing is is that at that time you didn't want to take a chance of not following the rules. Berlin was the showcase of Western Europe. They had rebuilt it from the war and the contrast between West Berlin and the Soviet, it was like night and day. I was a staff officer for part of my time there and I had to take a Sedan and a driver and drive into the Russian sector just to show the flag. And sometimes I would get out to walk and I would take pictures of some -- Berlin before the war must've been a magnificent, beautiful city because I could tell you the architecture and everything else. And then the apartment buildings that the Russians had built looked about as drab and falling apart as you could ever believe. So that's why they had to put up the wall, that's why they had to stop the rupture of East Germans coming into the West. And cultural wise and everything else, the western zone -- guys, you couldn't have asked for anything more. And Kennedy came and paraded through West Berlin. I was there. I was there between like ten feet away, fifteen feet away, and believe it or not there was a Norwich graduate there, my class, name of Bob Francis who was in the signal corps. And I don't know if he was taking pictures for whatever, but he was there during the parade. I saw him and talked to him. Now when Kennedy lost his life, the Berliners, when he said ich bin ein Berliner and they just went crazy. They loved him. So when he died, they turned out every light in West Berlin. They turned out every light. There wasn't a light there and lit candles in their windows, put candles in their windows. SY: Do you remember where you were when you found out that Kennedy had been shot? RL: I was in Berlin, where exactly I can't remember. I just know that the effect it had on the Berliners and on the world was amazing. And the Berliners loved this man just from the standpoint of what he said that time and he had come. And the respect, the showing of respect by candles, putting them in the windows, and turning out all the other lights was amazing. No other president has been honored, I don't think, with such sincerity. People try to emulate, but unfortunately they fall far short. SY: Was there ever a moment when you were in Berlin or Germany in general where you were like, "This Cold War is about to get hot," where you thought, "Oh, it's going to start?" Did Dick tell me a story? Was it your story about a plane where if it took off, that was going to be a reaction? He said something about a plane. I don't know what I'm talking about. RL: That was Vietnam. SY: That was Vietnam. That was later. OK. RL: I keep hitting that. I can't remember because it was always there and you were always prepared. And so to say one point over another, I can't remember such. Now I did have a friend there who flew helicopters and I do remember flying over Hitler's bunker that was totally destroyed from the Second World War and there was just nothing but dirt, concrete, that had never been rebuilt. Little things like that I remember. I remember going to see the ballet, Swan Lake as a matter of fact. They brought all of these wonderful cultural things into Berlin to show people the difference between the two 12 countries or philosophies you might say. But to think about the tensions, yeah, but when we were told to make staff rides and to be in total communication with our headquarters because we never knew when our cars might be stopped and something might happen. But other than that, no. SY: Yeah, it was just a pervasive feeling? RL: It was a constant reminder and harassment to leave Berlin. To drive, it was going through checkpoints. And then you didn't know if you were going to get let back in and all of these things. But life goes on. SY: OK, so then you leave Berlin and where do you go next? RL: Well from Berlin I went to -- and let me relate something here too about Norwich. Back when I was a senior, Norwich had corporations come in to recruit and to interview you and that. Eastman Kodak came in and I was supposed to see them and I didn't. Eastman Kodak wrote me a letter and it said, "When you have your military obligation finished, let us know and we'll bring you to Rochester." So when I came back from overseas, there was a question there whether I would stay in the army or not. Not serious, but I wanted to explore all of my options. So I went to Rochester. They offered me a job and et cetera, et cetera, but I did stay in the military. SY: Why'd you decide to stay in? RL: Well maybe it was something I was used to, you felt comfortable in. You have a driving flame to be the general or something? No, I just felt comfortable in what I was doing. I liked what I was doing. And so I kind of just stuck with it. SY: And this is what? Now we're at '64? RL: Yes. SY: So Vietnam is just starting to get on people's radar. RL: The big buildup was '65, '66 when they started sending all the divisions over. And then of course '67, '68 being the Tet Offensive. So I was assigned out to Fort Lewis. And then I was only there a year and I was given orders to go to Fort Bragg to be trained as a Special Forces officer. So I reported into Fort Bragg and was trained. And the revolution in the Dominican Republic occurred. And the 82nd Airborne was deployed to the Dominican Republicans, so they sent a contingence of Special Forces down there, and I was one of those. My mission there was more -- as a detachment commander I was small team, modified team, intelligence gathering upcountry on the island. And then I came back after that and was the S4 for the unit. SY: So this is the revolution and opposition to Trujillo? RL: Trujillo had been assassinated. And the communist were trying to take over the country. And luckily the Dominicans were -- and the 82nd Airborne -- the US was asked to come 13 in and help. And they contained the uprising in the inner city of Santo Domingo, the inner city. And they barb wired it. They had literally barb wire all around the old city and kept the communist in there. Now there were some in the country, in other places and towns, but the Dominican Republic was set up as -- the police force was almost as strong as the army because every police force had a fort in every town. And they had their own weapons, et cetera, et cetera. And the police force was pretty brutal if there was any question at all. Like I was on jump status down there on the island and we used to jump over sugar cane fields. And nine out of ten times -- for practice and to keep proficient -- the police force or the military had brought in who they thought were rebels and popped them, dumped bodies in there. So you found those things. So there was a certain amount of strong armed tactics that the Dominicans were imposing against their own people. But these people were looked upon as Communists and were trying to take over the country. SY: So how did you react to that, finding those bodies in the fields? RL: I walked away. I wasn't going to bury them and I kind of took a pragmatic look at it. I said, "You know what, there is nothing I can do about it. These guys are dead. The diplomats are down here trying to effect an election where the people will elect a Democratic president. We're doing the best job that we can to provide a stable atmosphere for this to take place." And other than that -- and I was upcountry, as I say, intelligent gathering. And I will say that the country was pretty quiet. We had a few times where intelligence was -- radioed back. But the people on a whole were wonderful, hardworking people. And when I was the S4 of the unit, I went down to the quartermaster where our food depot was and that. And believe it or not, the doctors would condemn food, the package was open or something. It wasn't good enough for US soldier consumption. And there were no, what I call, rat turds in it or anything else, but it was just sitting there or a can was dented or something. I would police up all these food stuffs and with approval, the doctors said, "No that's OK but we can't serve this to the troops because of the rules." So I gather this up and we had other outposts in the country. And then I would fly up in a helicopter and give the food out to the people. I felt that was something because they were very, very poor. Let me tell you, the country at that time was -- SY: Oh I've spent time there. It still is. RL: I mean trash and everything, you couldn't believe it. Now it's a resort area though. SY: Except where it's not. RL: I'm sorry, but my personal opinion is that there are some places in the world that never improve. Why is it that the -- again, it's the old power grab. Those that have, have and those that don't -- unfortunately. We try to change that in so many places in the world and we've always done the right thing, for the most part, but it's a very tough, tough thing to do. And they can only help themselves. 14 SY: So that's an intense period of time in the DR. And then you come back and then they're like, "Oh, since you had that nice, intense experience, we're going to send you somewhere easy. How about you go to Vietnam?" I'm kidding obviously. RL: That's right. No, no, I went to school at Fort Eustis, had a job there for six months in the educational department doing reviewing training and things like that. And then I went off to Vietnam. On the way over I took a delay in route and visited Japan, Okinawa, and Taiwan because I had gone to school with a couple of Chinese officers who were stationed on Taiwan. I visited with them before I went to Vietnam. SY: Did you have any idea what you were getting into? RL: No, because I didn't know where I was going to be assigned at the time and when I arrived there at Tan Son Nhat Airport, we were getting rocketed and we lived in tents until they made our assignments. And I was assigned as a transportation corps officer to the fourth transportation command, which was working pier operations and that in Saigon. And I was a pier operations officer for part of my tour there. And this was before Tet Offensive. And we had barge sights that were out of town and I used to go by myself with a 45 strapped to my hip and drive like hell. [We went either by the River in a boat or drove to each barge site.] But at that time, we didn't realize how the VC had infiltrated the area and how serious the problem was. I was extremely lucky. I always thought in my career that I had a guardian angel watching over me because there were so many times where it could've gone the other way. And I remember this, just the night before -- actually the night that I was out and did something, which I won't say right here, it was all job related. I was out there alone in the delta and I came back and that morning was when the VCs struck. And when somebody from Cholon, which was the Chinese sector, some of the officers were going out to the headquarters and got ambushed, shot up, they never made it. And all hell broke loose. And I remember that the VC drove the people on the outlining communities into the city. I remember outside the port area, the one street was just -- one night -- was just crammed with refugees just streaming into the city trying to get away from the fighting. And there were a lot of other incidents where we had ships that were sitting out trying to get up the Saigon River to offload and they'd be spending days and days out there because the port was just jammed with ships and we were trying to offload the equipment and everything and we couldn't get them all up. And some of these ships were commercial ships with cargo holes. And they were rocketed and there were gaping holes in the sides and in the upper structure and things like that because they had to travel up through the delta, in a winding river which wasn't very wide to get to Saigon. And those guys, the bad guys, were out there. And we did our job. And I had a very good friend who was a helicopter pilot. And I remember we had to go to Vung Tau one time and we were in a Huey and we had a number of technicians with us and things like that. And we were flying along the delta and we were skimming the delta. We weren't flying high. We were just skimming. And all of the sudden I just hear this whomp, whomp, whomp, whomp and all of the sudden my buddy in the pilot chair, the whole chopper, he was trying to lift it, almost physically lift that chopper to get altitude because we were under fire. And this guy I have a great admiration for. He's been a friend for a good, long time -- got us out of the situation. We 15 got above it all and flew on to Vung Tau. And we got out. We looked and we were just lucky. Again, it's a matter of time, where you are, and sometimes just plain luck. SY: Right place, right time. Wrong place, wrong time. Did you have any -- I know some people had sort of superstitious good luck charms or things they did to -- were there things in Vietnam that you did to just kind of keep yourself safe in your own mind. RL: Nope. I just kind of -- I tell you quite frankly, I remember the presidential palace, right across the street from my billet. I mean the VC were so close into the city and Saigon was a beautiful town. Well let me say this, Tudor Street which was all tree lined, but during war time a lot of bars and bar girls and all that. But a beautiful town, some really fine French restaurants, but when they say Pearl of the Orient, it was prior to this time. I would say after the war, World War II because I don't think there was much damage there during World War II. But it must've been a beautiful country. SY: So when you were in Vietnam, a lot of people, it was an existential crisis for them. It brought on a lot of doubts about why they were there, what they were doing, the nature of war itself. Was that your experience or did you -- RL: I think that you could dwell on that if you wanted to. But I also think it's in the situation which you're placed in. If you're under a great deal of stress, if you're under fire, if your life is -- it might be snuffed out in a minute's notice, that you start to think about it more and say, "Why the heck am I here, God protect me. Let me just get out of this." And it so shocks your system that that images, they keep reoccurring. It's like your memory buds have been lit up and those things keep coming back in flashes. So I think it's all based upon the situation and where you are and what you're doing. SY: It sounds like you weren't in combat directly. RL: I wasn't directly in combat. I could've been shot because of snipers or anything else. But did I have a rifle in my hand and going out into the jungle, no I did not. My job was to ensure that cargo got lifted off of these ships onto barges or any place else and was delivered to the troops. And I did that. When I got promoted to major, then I was, due to a recommendation by one of my instructors at the transportation school, they recommended me for a staff position. And so they moved me -- still in the Saigon port, but I was at a staff position while I was there, the rest of the time I was there. I was there thirteen months. I was given a special project to do and I told the command that I would stay there until it was finished. So rather than twelve months, I spent thirteen months. SY: Do you remember the first day you arrived and the day you left? RL: I remember the first day I arrived. SY: What was your impression? RL: It was hot, steamy hot. We had a tent city. And there were hundreds of troops in a cantonment area at Tan Son Nhat Airforce Base. Planes coming and going. And I wasn't there very long. And then I was assigned to a unit in Saigon where I was working nights. 16 So I would sleep in daytime. So I do remember the arrival and coming off the plane. But going home, I'd have a hard time. SY: You weren't counting down your days? Well no, because you had that special project, so it wasn't like you were sure. RL: Well I knew I was going to stay. I mean I just knew it. I knew that I was going to do this and that was it. It's hard to -- SY: Was it hard to adjust to coming back home after being in Vietnam? RL: I came back. I was stationed at Fort Monroe. And I worked for the training command there. And I was responsible for the training budget of all the service schools around the United States, to include the aviation schools at Fort Wolters, Rucker, all this. And I remember I worked for a guy named General Pepke and his deputy was a General Andrews. Pepke was a two star at that time and Andrews was a one star. And I had a very responsible position because at that time, believe it or not, in the early '70s, they were downsizing to get out of Vietnam and the school budgets were being cut. And I remember the DA staff called me about the aviation budget for our aviation schools. And I worked with two colonels, lieutenant colonels, who became general officers and trying to save the aviation budget from being cut to the bone. And I remember I worked on a lot of projects and was flying back and forth between Fort Monroe and Washington to work with these officers and try to save as much as we could. And that was I think a turning point probably in my career because I had not been selected for the Commander and General Staff College yet, I was a major. Now Commander and General Staff School is very important to you. I hadn't been selected yet. So there was an opportunity there and I was already working on my master's degree, going to night school. Now I was working constantly with a high pressure job and I was going to school for my master's degree with George Washington and I was doing commander general staff work with the reserve unit at Fort Eustis which was about 20 miles away. SY: You were a busy guy. RL: So I was going to school for four nights a week plus weekends working plus doing my job plus doing the papers and studying and doing all the things you have to do. So I was out and that's why I say to people don't ever get discouraged, don't let people tell you that you're not going to make it or you're not going to do something. You have to keep plugging away and rely upon yourself to be good enough to do it. So I have to say that I wasn't married at the time, so your social life goes to hell in a handbasket. See, you have to set your priorities. And there's another thing that Norwich is going to help you do is set priorities and know what's important and what's not important in life because you have to look down the pike. Think outside the box and then see what it's going to be like ten -- 15 -- 20 years from now. So if you want a career, you got to work for it. And they're not going to hand it to you. You go out and get it. You prove your point to them. So all this happened and I finished up my Commander and General Staff stuff, I got my master's degree, and they shipped me to Korea.17 SY: Now at this point you must be tired. RL: Well I'm going to tell you right now, the thing is that you learn something from your education, from Norwich, which is to press on. It's the old thing as can do, I will try, whatever. Can do was my infantry, first of the fifteenth, can do outfit, Norwich was I will try. And those things drive you, especially if you have fire in your belly and you want to go someplace. And you're not satisfied with just sitting on your butt and hoping that it's going to happen. So I go to Korea and I work for 8th Army HQ in Seoul and I'm a logistical staff officer and out of the blue the general calls me in and said, "Oh by the way you're going to continue as a logistical staff officer, but you're now the missile maintenance officer for Korea." That's an ordinance job and the ordinance officer had just gone home and they didn't have anybody. So now I'm responsible and the problem they had with the Hawk missile program which is a Raytheon product was they were getting about 40% reliability. And DA was holy hell on the command. So I had to do something about that. Well let me put it this way, it's a twelve month tour in Korea. And my assignment officer, the big assignment officer from DA, came over and he says, "Hey, yeah Lotz, you're going to the armed forces staff college." So I said, "Hey look, I've been to Leavenworth." He says, "You're going to the joint school, the armed forces staff college, in Norfolk." And I said, "Well when's this going to happen." He said, "Your next class is six or seven to eight months out," after I come back. I said, "What will I be doing?" He said, "You'll snowbird." Well snowbird is that you go there and you do whatever the school tells you to do. And I told him, I said, "No, I don't want to do that." I stayed in Korea 18 months. I worked on the job I did and when I did that, the reliability of the Hawk missile was at 94%. I had done a whole refurbishment program on the other missiles that we had in budget, I had set up budgets for refurbishment, did all of that, and so I came out of Korea with what they call is a dual job efficiency report because I did two jobs in one. And then I went to the armed forces staff college. SY: There you go. And then you get married. RL: No, not yet. I got to school. I went through school. I was assigned to the military personnel center where I was given a job as the lead on women in the army. I used to brief the DA staff. I used to go over there with all the statistics because we were trying to create a model that would determine the grade and MOS and how to bring them in without having big bubbles and all of that, et cetera, et cetera. And I used to go over with these big, in those days, printouts like this and I used to brief the DA staff. And I used to bring these printouts to them and I'd say generals if you don't believe what I'm saying, you can read it. And I drop it on the floor and they'd all laugh. We're talking about two or three stars and they all laugh because they know they aren't going to do that thing. So they were listening to what I was saying, it's the how we were trying to work this. And I wasn't trying to be smart. I was just trying to lighten the load, just be a little levity there. And I was recommended for the Pace Award because of that and I was given a special award. And I met my wife in Washington. My wife, I was trying to get a date with her and she was busy or I was busy. One time I just got fed up and said, "Are you free Friday night? Can we go out?" And she finally said yes. And so her father was a retired colonel infantry which she never let me forget. And we went out to dinner and dancing down in Washington. And I said to her that night, I said, "I think I'm going to marry 18 you." She said she'd never marry a military guy. And she says, "I think you're right." I've been married ever since, the same woman, very happily married. SY: That's a lovely story. So we've been talking for like about an hour and fifteen minutes. RL: And you want to know something? You got more than you need. SY: And I think you probably want to -- I don't want to take up your whole day. RL: No, and I got to get going. SY: Yeah, exactly. So any last thoughts? This was great. Let me -- RL: It's too much, I know. But I'm telling you stories. SY: No, no, you're telling me stories. This is all really important. RL: We haven't gotten to the point where I got to be a battalion commander about this guy, Pendleton, who used to be -- I'll tell you that a different time. But that's the leadership team. There's what you face as a battalion commander. There is where you have distress and strain of seven days a week, 24 hours a day and have to take care of the troops. SY: So when we have more time, we'll really go into that. I'll put a pin in this. So let's pick. So when we talked on the phone yesterday, you were talking about how you think that in terms of remembering war there's this unfair hierarchy where combat stories are valued more highly than other stories. So do you want to speak to that? RL: It's the perception that people have that when you mention warfare, they think of combat because that's what it's all about. You wouldn't have a war unless somebody was fighting. So we focus on those people who are in combat because they're the ones nine out of ten times who get wounded or there's fatalities and things like that. But we forget about those who support the combat troops, the combat service support troops, and things like that, that there's a huge number of people behind supplying and taking care of, the medical people and the supply people and the transportation people and all these people that are supporting the combat role. Even the artillery people, the combat service support, it's a team and we can't forget that there's a large team behind the combat lines that are supporting those in the trenches. SY: And also I'm sure that in Vietnam even though you were behind the lines, you still were in danger all the time I would imagine. RL: Well you were because the way the war was there, you didn't know who your enemy was because the enemy melded in with the populace. And the snipers and the ambushes and things like that that could happen at any time. So you always had to be prepared. The convoys had to be prepared even in the city sometimes, especially during the Tet Offensive in '68, the Tet Offensive. A lieutenant working with us was ambushed and was killed. So it could happen at any time. And there was no front lines in the First World19 War. It was a trench. And you knew those bad guys were on that side and you were on the other side. It's a different war out there during my service. SY: Yeah. What was it like to live with that constant anxiety and confusion? You were there for a long time? RL: Well yeah, but the thing is is that you didn't dwell on it because if you dwelt on it, then you were afraid all the time and you couldn't get your job done and you couldn't function. So you put it out of your mind. It's one of those things that when you're put under stress, you look to God to say, "Make sure I get through this." SY: Were there ever moments when it broke through and felt that fear, like I don't know, going to bed at night or waking up in the morning or things like that? RL: Only from the standpoint of anxiety you might say. There were times -- the night before the Tet Offensive, I had to go to a barge site and I went alone and I had to go through the city across the bridge outside the city. And the Vietnamese troops were guarding the bridge and so I pulled up in my Jeep and they looked at me and I said, "I got to go to the barge site," which was a couple miles away. You had to go through this little village and all. And they looked like as if I was nuts. But I went and this was about one o'clock in the morning. And I went through the village down to the barge site, checked it out, the operation and everything, and came back and at dawn that same day the next vehicle that came into that village was ambushed. Well there for the grace of God, go I. So there's no way of telling what's going to happen at times. And so the anxiety level is there but you can't dwell on it and you do your job. SY: Does your training keep you from dwelling on it? RL: I think so, yeah, if you know what you're doing. It definitely is a big plus. If you didn't know what you were doing, your anxiety level would really be high because then you would be looking in the shadows. It's not that you're not conscious of what's going on around you because your training develops that instinct to look at certain things and evaluate certain -- and quickly and whether it's safe or not safe. So from that standpoint, yeah your training is a key factor into how you react and how you look at things. It tells you when to go and not to go at times. So it can be a life saver. SY: So I interviewed a guy just last month or a couple weeks ago and he was also an officer. He was also a logistics guy behind the scenes, but it was in Iraq and as we know there's no real distinction between combat and noncombat anymore. And he was describing when he came back, it took him a while to realize that he had some of the signs of PTSD. He needed the quick fix. He had the hypervigilance. He was seeking out thrills and things like that. And I'm wondering if -- it was talked about less in Vietnam, especially if you'd come back and function, it wasn't talked about at all. But did you when you came back experience trouble adjusting back into a civilian -- not civilian because you're still in but? RL: Well I think maybe I had a sense of -- I was self-sufficient you might say. I could handle my emotions. I could -- so I'm self-sufficient you might say, not a loner, but able to cope 20 you might say better than others. And because of my background, because of how I was brought up, because of everything, that all contributes to how you adapt and can assimilate all that happens to you in a combat zone when you come back and try to come back into the community. The associations you have with your family, the associations you have with people, how you view the world and everything else, all of that's a factor in what affects you up here in your head. SY: Claire, can you tell them to be quiet nicely? F2: Sure. RL: See that all affects how you look on life. And so from that standpoint I would say that I didn't come back with a lot of anxiety, I came back to a world that was safe, the world that hadn't been effected by war, a world that I didn't have to watch out. SY: Was it strange to like sleep in a nice comfortable and to eat delicious food? RL: No. SY: It just was easy? RL: It was easy. I assimilated right back in. But I tell you, that's based on attitude too. And you got to realize this, you don't always sleep on the floor. You don't always sleep and live out of a rucksack. There were cantonment areas and things like that. In Vietnam it was like they were trying, because the war wasn't popular, is they tried to bring all the comforts of home to Vietnam. So for the combat troops when they weren't out in the field, they could come back to a cantonment area with all -- good food, rest, relaxation, et cetera, et cetera. And they also had the R&R where they could go over to Australia or to Japan or wherever and Thailand. So there were certain things and they tried in Vietnam to try to keep guys in combat maybe six months and then six months in a rural area. So there's all different aspects that you have to consider when you look how a person's going to react when he comes back. SY: Are there any, I don't know -- when you think about Vietnam, I don't know how often you think about it now. Are there smells, images, feelings that you remember, anything that sticks with you? One guy, I read his memoir, he talked about the smell because they were burning poop where he was living. RL: That was up at a cantonment area. We had the outside latrines and all that and they had to do it to get rid of it. A lot of times in the Orient you'll find they'd throw it on their fields, in the rice, and all that. They use it for fertilizing. Well the Germans did too and animal manure was – used as fertilizer. SY: Welcome to Vermont spring. RL: Well you had the old honey wagon. So in Germany they used to pour it onto the fields. And that's why you had to be careful of what you ate and things like that, especially in the Orient. What I remember about Vietnam, the food, not the American but I mean the 21 Vietnamese food. I do remember the time where there was during the Tet Offensive a lot of rocket attacks right across the street from where I was staying and the presidential palace wasn't too far, like two blocks away. The thing was that the rocket attacks would come in and then I remember one morning they heavily rocketed that area and the concussions and the noise you hit the floor, and then I ran outside because right across the street there was a Vietnamese family and a rocket had hit the house. And so this other fellow and I ran inside, up the rubble, actually the rubble, and got into the front entrance because the family had children. And we found the family, luckily nobody was hurt. They were underneath the stairs and they had been saved because they had taken shelter underneath the stairs where that closet or whatever it was saved them. And we hauled them out. I remember that. I remember working in the Saigon port and on the Saigon River. I remember that little incidence where we took ground fire. I remember little things like that. SY: Yeah, I bet the food was amazing. RL: The food was. I thought the food -- Oriental food can be quite good. When I was stationed in Korea I used to eat on the economy all the time. And you'd sit on a pillow and fold your legs and a lot of times they had a grill in front of you and things like that. I liked Korean beer. SY: Korean beer is good. I like Korean barbeque too. So we haven't gotten talk about you being -- you were a brigade commander right? RL: I was a brigade commander. SY: How many people were in your brigade? RL: It was thousands. I was a commander of the school brigade which had all the troops and students for the transportation school at Fort Eustis. SY: And the story you were telling of when you were staying in the World War II barracks and you had that -- RL: I was a battalion commander at Fort Bragg. SY: That was Fort Bragg? RL: That was Fort Bragg, North Carolina. I was commander of the seventh transportation battalion, had a long military history in that battalion. We had the only airborne car company still left in the United States army and that was left over from World War II. And the commander was a captain and he was on jump status because of the airborne car company, that was the connotation of it. And they were used -- that's why I say it's leftover from the Second World War. They also had an air delivery company, quartermaster company, where it was commanded by a major. And they did rigging for heavy drops, meaning vehicles, supplies, everything, and rigging the parachutes, and things like that. And because I had airborne troops in my battalion, my job also my slot was designated as an airborne slot. So at 44 I was still jumping out of airplanes.22 SY: Woah, so how'd your wife feel about that? RL: I had been married two years, three years at that time. And her father had been a 30 year veteran in the infantry, had been in the Second World War and that. And it's part of the job. SY: You were meeting a lot of people. So did you have any leadership challenges? How do you think you did as a leader? Were you the right mixture of approachable and intimidating? Did you think about that? RL: Well I guess if I had to self-evaluate, I was both because my commander expected -- he expected his commanders to be combat ready all the time and to be efficient and to get the job done regardless of the obstacles. There was a certain amount of pressure. Which therefore, you had to -- like they say, it rolls downhill. Now you had to say that at this time we had a volunteer army. Yeah, we were in a volunteer army. We had kids from all over the country. And we had to appeal to their sense of duty because that wasn't an eight to five job. I don't know where they ever got this idea. And the accommodations they lived in were not pleasant. They were the bunks and the World War II barracks, one latrine at the end. And the barracks were not in very good shape because that was the time of the Carter timeframe and they were cutting back on the forces. The money wasn't there. It wasn't being appropriated for repair parts or anything else so your vehicles were down a lot of time. You had to spend long hours to try to maintain and keep them going. And maintenance was one of the biggest problems with keeping the vehicles going, trying to make sure that the troops were taken care, and weren't put in such a state where they couldn't function. And we just did so many different things within the battalion because not only did I have truck company, I had Jeeps, I had an air delivery company, I had a Stevedore company that lifted the boxes and all that. So we had a challenge because we were multifunction, not just one focus. And we supported the 82nd airborne. And the 82nd airborne was -- they had three brigades. One brigade would be in the field and we had to support them. One brigade would be in garrison and we had to support them. And one brigade would be I'd say down, not deployable, they were resting after doing these other two. Well we had to support on a 24 hour, seven day basis, those two other brigades. We never had any down time. And that's why the vehicles had problems because we were running them all the time. And so it got to be a challenge, a real big challenge. But I was extremely proud of my battalion I encouraged my troops to be competitors. Fort Bragg there was very competitive with the 82nd airborne, the other troops there. They had boxing matches. We had combat football. We had air delivery competitions with the 82nd because they had their own air delivery unit. And I would say that my boxers, I reestablished and let some of my troops box, started taking championships. We beat the 82nd airborne in combat football, never been done before even though my commander who was a major at the time and was captain of our combat football team broke his collar bone. And it wasn't too long after that that they outlawed combat football because there were too many injuries. But the fact here is here was a support element, a transportation battalion, that went up against the combat troops, the 82nd airborne, and beat them in combat football, biggest thing. I was real proud of my troops. I had the championship women's basketball team at Fort Bragg. So esprit de corps is a very important thing and you got to give them a sense of accomplishment, not 23 only on the job but also in these other areas. So you try to encourage that. It's a difficult thing. It's a balancing act. It's like you have to keep all the balls up in the air at the same time and you have to learn how to do that. And it's not an easy thing. SY: Interesting. So I have two more questions for you and then Clark has some Norwich questions for you. But I also know time is an issue. My buddy Dick [Shultz?] told me a story. He discovered halfway through that I was Jewish. And then it was all over. He talked about -- he says you have some story about an airplane, it was in Vietnam, almost taking off or something, a Cold War story about if this airplane takes off, we're with war with Russia. I don't know, he remembered something. You don't know what he's talking about or you do? And you watched the plane hover and then it went down again. Maybe this wasn't Vietnam. Maybe this was Korea. I don't know. RL: I don't know. I was in South America one time and I was in special ops. I was Special Forces then. And one of the planes, it was a C123, which was an old prop driven. I mean you never see those today. And it was special ops. And the pilots, we were contour flying. Contour flying means you're right on the deck, bounding up and down because of the air drafts and everything else, and I remember this vividly. I was up with the pilots and these two guys -- you got to remember, air force guys I think are a little bit different than army guys. And they have to be for what they do. And these two pilots were up there just chatting away. I mean it was like they're having a cup of coffee down in the wherever and they were just chatting back and forth and this thing was bouncing up and down, up and down, and all across wise. And they were just having the grandest time. And you got to realize that it takes a special breed to do this. And it's the joy. I mean, I was a young guy and I just had the greatest time because -- and you have to have the competence though. And that's where you were talking about the training and everything else is so important. It's that these guys were able to do this, almost with their eyes closed. But the fact is, it was dangerous, what we were doing. And the helicopter I told you about being shot at and the pilot, as I say, I make light of it. But the fact was, we were taking ground fire and very well that chopper could've gone right there into the patties except for the pilot, again who I knew personally and had great confidence, and just pulled back on the pitch. And that thing, we didn't know if it was going to make it up or not because the rounds were hitting and if they'd hit the wrong part, we were done for. But this guy was just cool as hell, pardon the expression. He was. And that chopper, the vibration, it was just straining to get up over 1,000 feet where we get out of range of the ground fire. There were other things, but -- which one? There was a couple other things. But it was fun because you're young and you think you're invincible. And like you were talking about, how do you feel about -- some of these things you don't think about because you put it right out of your mind. And sometimes you put it out of your mind for a purpose. SY: Training plus testosterone. RL: And you just don't think about it after that too. Some of the things are so emotional that you don't. You put them out of your mind and you don't go back. That's just the way of life.24 SY: So one last question, people talk a lot about the military civilian divide. And you said that they're two different cultures. So you were in the military a long time and then you're retired. And so how do you interact with the civilian world? Do you feel different than the people around you who are civilians? Do you mostly spend time in military circles still? RL: No, when I left the service I never looked behind. And I went 180 degrees, gone the other way. SY: All right, what did you do? RL: I established my own business out of a hobby. I worked with antique clocks, 1700 and 1800. And I found that in order for me to establish a business, I had to go do these high end antique shows. And so I started doing high end antique shows, maybe was doing 15 or 16 a year -- I had a studio built off the back of my house. Business was by appointment only. And I had between 45 and 50 tall case clocks plus all these other clocks and things like that. And I'm down to about two shows a year now. And I used to be driving 40,000 miles a year to do the shows. But it gave me the latitude to be my own boss. It gave me the latitude to where if I didn't want to work seven days a week, 24 hours a day, I didn't have to because I had a young family. And I just didn't want to go back into the pressure cooker. The pressure cooker is what I call, even in my final days -- I had great jobs, one of them where I was the DCS for air transportation in the military airlift command, which is now melded into the transportation command at Scott Airforce Base. I was responsible for all the aerial reports and cargo and passengers all over the world. I had people all over the world. And so one time I left from Scott Airforce Base to the west coast to Hawaii, to Japan, to Korea, to Okinawa, to the Philippines, to Diego Garcia, to Turkey, to Germany, to Spain, to England, and home. So I only say that because I'm giving you the perspective that you can do anything in your military career. It depends on the field you're in. And one time I worked for the comptroller of the army as one of his executive assistants and was also congressional liaison for the appropriation committee with Congress. I worked with the Senate and the House of Representations when I was stationed in Washington. So what I'm trying to say is that a military career is not just one thing. I've had a varied career from combat arms to comptrollership to transportation to a multitude of other things, Special Forces and that. SY: But then you didn't want to go back. You wanted a job that wasn't that intense? RL: Well it was the fact is that that was me. Everybody's different and it was me. And I've been involved with Norwich since I was a class agent. And let me just tell you what I did because this is what I say to the Norwich grad is to keep active. I was a class agent for a while, then I was president of the alumni club in Washington DC. Then I went to the alumni board. Then I was president of the alumni association. Then I went to the board of trustees. Then I went to the Board of Fellows. Then I was chairman of the Board of Fellows. And then I had been a contributor with the Partridge Society and all of that. And I worked with the Colby Symposium for 20 years. And today they just appointed me as chair of the Friends of the Colby, the military author's symposium.25 SY: Cool, congratulations. Do you feel like Norwich -- it clearly prepared you for a military career. Do you think it also prepared you for your civilian career? RL: Sure. SY: How so? RL: I think that Norwich gave me an attitude. You know, it's an attitude and it's a level of confidence. Norwich University was the perfect match for me because it gave me the opportunity for leadership positions. I was the cadre every year I was here. And second it did, it gave me a great opportunity to meet combat vets because of the PMSNT and the cadre officers and that and to associate with some really find people. Thirdly, I met some great professors. Loring Hart was my English teacher. And I wrote an article for the Guidon one time and he wrote me a little note. He said, "Well done, you learned something." Little things like that that were feedback from the administration. Ernie Harmon who was the president at the time, I had met maybe four or five times. And when I was given an award or my diploma and the only other time I met him was when he chewed me out one time really bad when I was a corporal of the guard, and I mean really bad. SY: What did you do? RL: He drove up and parked his Cadillac and was going up to his office and I was the corporal of the guard. We were ready to take the flag down or something. And I didn't see him. But I didn't call the guard to attention or anything. And he just came over and chewed me out for not calling to attention and saluting him. And I said, "Yes sir." And the other time I met him was the time he called me into his office. And here's a good story for you. He called me in. He says, "I got a letter from your parents. They're concerned because you weren't accepted into advanced ROTC," because I failed the medical because of my eyes. And he says, "Do you want to be in advanced ROTC?" And I said, "Yes sir." He said, "Well this is what we're going to do." He told me exactly what he was going to do. He was going to get me my eye reexamined at Fort Ethan Allen and that the transportation would be provided for me and to report at such and such a time. And that was it, bang, gone. I went up to Fort Ethan Allen, went to the doctor there, doctor came from my home town. And he says, "What's the problem?" He says, "Well you got to be kidding me." He says, "During the Second World War with guys that were absolutely blind were in the infantry and they gave them two or three pairs of glasses in case they broke one and they sent them off into combat." So he reexamined me and passed me and that's why I had a 30 year career in the army. And I spent a lot of time, when they said I couldn't be in the combat arms, I spent a lot of time in the combat arms. So I tell these cadets don't give up and the fact is you can be anything that you want to be, you just work for it. SY: Now, Clark you had a question. It was about this canoeing trip right? CLARK HAYWOOD: (inaudible) [01:41:05] that you got to, as I would say, as a young guy, you got to hang out with Homer Dodge. So what was Homer Dodge like?26 RL: Wonderful guy, just a wonderful -- and he had to be in his 90s. All right, I was stationed in Washington DC at the time and I was working in the Pentagon. And I was elected president of the alumni club in Washington. And so my wife and I, we looked at what we could do to be interesting for the group, to bring him in. So I contact Dr. Dodge and asked him if I went down and picked him up -- now he was down in Pawtucket and Camorra, Cremini or something plantation. He had a beautiful home right on the Pawtuxet River, old, old home. And I said if we come down and pick you up and bring you up for the meeting and then take you home. Well that was like two hours down, two hours back. Anyway, he agreed to that. So my wife and I went down and he addressed the group. And by the time it was all finished, we got home at like one or two o'clock in the morning after driving him home. And he invited us to come back and spend the day with him. So we did. Now he was a canoeist. If you read his bio and that, he was a pretty serious canoeist. And at the age that he was, he was still canoeing. I couldn't believe it. And he had it all upstairs. He hadn't lost a bit. He had not lost a bit physically and everything else. And his stature, he wasn't a very tall guy, but he says, "Come on." He says, "I want to go in the marshlands along the river here and we'll go canoeing." So my wife and I got the canoe out and all three of us got in and he paddled us around and showed us all this marshland and things like that. And we just had a great time. And we had lunch together down there. And so that's how my connection with another president, he was president from 1944 to 1950, and then Ernie Harmon came in. And then Barksdale Hamlett I think came in after Ernie. And I knew him. And then it was Loring Hart. And then it was Russ Todd. Then it became Rich Schneider. I knew every one of these guys. I worked with them because of my association with the school. SY: So what about -- you've seen Norwich change a lot over the years. And how do you feel about the changes? Your alumni are sometimes very pro and very anti, it's interesting. RL: Well you have to realize that our society has changed. And when females came into the corps, well that was a big thing. Well at the same time I was working in Washington. And as I told you, women in the army, that's what I worked on. SY: So you did work on that? You worked on making that happen. RL: Yeah. I was briefing the generals. Remember I talked about those reports and I used to throw them on the floor to laugh because this was all the statistics they were providing because we were trying to integrate women into the army in certain MOSs by grade and MOS so there weren't any big bubbles, you see, because for promotion and everything else. And so this was a big thing that the Pentagon was concerned about. And they were getting a lot of court action, litigation. So we were an important part of the personnel system to make all this happen in a logical way. And that was where my commander because of the group I was leading gave me a special award and also recommended me for the Pace Award which was a very prestigious thing. I didn't get it, but the point is that he thought enough of me to recommend me for it. And that's what counts in life is that at least you get recommended for some of these things. But seeing that in the corps, so that didn't bother me at all because I had women in my battalion. And they were some of my best officers and best NCOs. Now I will say we did have some problems with women in the army and that was with -- and the only thing I want to mention here is lesbianism. 27 We did have issues of that. And that's changed too. You got to know what the period of the time was and the problems that we were confronted with which we hadn't confronted before. So they were new to us. So in order to be concerned about protecting troops and everything else, you had to reorient yourself. And that's the most important thing. The issue why I say that is to be able to be flexible enough to adapt to a new change and to be behind it and to understand it and support it. Now if you don't -- there were times where I don't agree with everything that happens at Norwich but at the same time I understand this is a big operation here. It's grown so much that the opportunities for these cadets -- they're busy all the time. All the opportunities are so much greater than what we had when I was going to school. And the other thing is that you've got civilians here too. And those are all different problems that you have to work through so there's no favoritism towards one body or towards the other. And that's why I say with a Colby symposium is that we have to incorporate the civilians as well as the military. So the subjects have to be such as that they relate to both sides. And therefore they interconnect and therefore what we're trying to do is enrich the student's experience. And what I say is think outside the box. You can't be just focused with blinders on. If you do that then you're missing a lot. And you're missing a lot in life too. SY: That might be a good note to end on. Clark, any other questions? CH: Yeah, do you have any anecdotes of any of the presidents that you worked with at all, just funny or anything serious that you learned, like insights from the past? RL: Well Ernie Harmon was -- he'd watch you from his window as you walked your tours and all that. He was gruff. He was fair. And I didn't have a lot of contact with him. The awards, the diploma, and when it was necessary. Other than that, you didn't want to have any experience with him from that standpoint because it might be negative. That's what you didn't want because Ernie, he was a tough guy, but he was fair. SY: Any interactions with his wife? RL: No, none. None whatsoever. SY: I'm reading her autobiography right now. RL: You're a cadet and you're talking in the 1950s. And we're isolated then because we didn't have '89 up here. And that's what I think -- that's what made our class just hang together, the comradery and the fraternities and everything else. And that's why I think even today with our class, we hang together. Maybe it's other classes. It just happens that maybe I'm looking at just my class, but then you went from there to Hamlett who was a gentleman. He only was here for a little while. I think he got sick or had cancer or something and left. So it was limited experience there. But then Loring Hart came in. Now he was my English professor. And I have to say that Loring Hart drew me back into Norwich, he did, because I was in the alumni club, but he says you got to come back to Norwich. And he used to stay with me when I was the president. He used to stay in our home, he and his wife Marylyn. And she was a delightful person. SY: I'm trying to track her down.28 RL: I think she died. She's passed away. Either that or she's in a -- SY: A nursing home? RL: Yeah, extended care. And I'll mention that in just a minute. But Loring Hart was an academician and at the time -- each one of these presidents that we're talking about was the man for his time. That's what they needed. And then of course they outlived their time and so then they bring somebody else. So Loring was the academician. I think he brought people together. He certainly was a favorite of mine. I used to stay with him when I came up for the meetings. That's because we were friends. And that friendship developed after Norwich, after I graduated. When Loring left and Russ Todd came on, Russ and I talked -- General Todd and I talked a lot because I was on the trustees at that time. And he was the right man for the time because of the military aspect, that's what they needed. But I will say this, that Rick Schneider when it was his time to do it -- and he's been here, what, 20 some years. He brought characteristics or elements of all the presidents previously you might say. And why I say that, maybe not in the intensity of an Ernie Harmon, but he came with his military background with the Coast Guard. Second was his finance background, which is a Godspeed because he understands that you can't do anything unless you have the money to do it. And that is a big plus in the atmosphere that we operate in today. He also is able to work with people. Therefore, he's been able to advance the university in certain areas. And he's given them the latitude to do that, where we've gotten more prestigious things that are necessary in a university. Now he's working on the campaign for the bicentennial which he knows that may be part of his legacy is the fact that he leaves the school financially better off than when he came in, which is a very important thing because if we're to perpetuate this for longevity, we need the financial endowment. A lot of big schools have these huge endowments over the years. But you got to realize that in the early years, even in the '60s and the '70s, there was a very small endowment. And there wasn't a lot of money being given. But after that with technology a lot of our graduates have done extremely well. And they've been very generous with giving back to the school. So that's an important element as we look at our history in the 20th century and now in the 21st century is how things have changed from that standpoint. The university's changed because of the physical plant, because of the civilian population. And yet we're still getting great admission in the cadet corps. So the core values of the university, the concept of citizen soldier, has got to be preserved because that's the main stay as far as I'm concerned of the university. And when I came to this school, I had no intention of going into the military as a career. I took business and I expected to go into the business world. SY: And so why do you think you did? RL: As I progressed, everybody had to go in and had a military obligation regardless. I don't know how it developed. It just developed. I was always one of these people who was willing to take on responsibility and I was a cadre member the whole time. I did well at summer camp. And I was involved with all of these organizations here. SY: You were good at it.29 RL: Well I was interested in it. I was interested, like the honor committee and all these committees. But the point being is that I did well so I had the opportunity to -- I was a distinguished military graduate. I had the opportunity to accept an army commission. And I said, "Why not? Twenty years, get my masters, and go out in the business." Well I got to that point where I had my master's and 20 years and I got promoted early to colonel. And I had young kids and everything. I loved the military. So I just stayed in for 30. But how did I get into, it was Norwich. I didn't have any intention of coming into the military like a lot of these young men and women come into the school today. I had no idea that I would spend 30 years in the army. But I had a great career. I had great opportunities, great assignments, and so you look back on your life and you say, "Gee, I've been lucky." But I have to say that I was prepared academically before I came to Norwich, how to study, because the grades are important. And Norwich developed me after that. I don't know what more I can say. SY: I'm worried about you catching your plane. RL: No, no, don't worry about that. I'll catch that plane. I know how to do it. As long as they don't ticket me for speeding. SY: I think we're good. Thank you for coming back today. RL: Well you can edit anything out of that you want. END OF AUDIO FILE