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Transcript of an oral history interview with Angus Macaulay, conducted by Sarah Yahm on 5 May 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Angus Macaulay graduated from Norwich University in 1966. His interview focuses on his military service in Korea and Vietnam after graduation as well as his later career at McGraw-Hill, INC. Magazine, and Magazine Services, Inc. ; Angus Macaulay, NU 1966, Oral History Interview May 5, 2015 Interviewed by Sarah Yahm AM It happened in our division when I was there. SY Really? AM I want you to ask me about - most of the guys who went to Vietnam they were gone for a year I was gone for almost two years And I think a question you might want to - that may come up would be what I - the perception of change I felt had happened in the US when I came home SY You know I was going to ask you about that And keep in mind this is casual and so if there's something you want me to ask just tell me We'll just - and you know just be like "Something I've been thinking about." AM Now what do you do? Would you transcribe this eventually? SY I have an assistant who transcribes it. AM Don't you have software that transcribes it? SY It doesn't work because there's so much that's in context and so the software misses AM Ah! SY - that and they botch words and they don't do grammar AM Will I ever see a copy of it? SY Yeah so the way it works is that so we do this recording I get back to Norwich the backlog could be a couple of months AM Oh don't worry about it SY - because transcribing takes a long time Clark gets to work on transcribing it Then what you get in the mail is a copy of the transcript and a CD of the interview You review the transcript make sure things are accurate Did you know Bill Bonk? AM Oh yeah SY Yeah well he AM Bill's a good friend of mine. SY Bill still needs - if you talk to him tell him to send me back my transcript Anyway so you know I sent - I interviewed Bill I sent him his transcript We talked for hours; it was an amazing interview And but you know there are some things like I you know I try to figure out all the place names correctly but there are some you know Vietnam-era military acronyms that I might mess up etc. AM Oh okay don't worry no don't worry about it SY - so he goes through and but he - so then he has to read through it and he has to you know make sure everything is correct and then he sends it Or also there are some things he told me that might be classified that he might want out of the record So you have the opportunity at that point to AM No I don't think I have any (laughs) SY He had a couple of secret missions I think he'll be fine with keeping them in But he might want to go through and think about that right? So then - or for instance somebody on tape said something mean about her mother-in-law and she's going to want to cut that out when I send her her transcript back right? Because this is going to be available on the website right? So the idea is you get it you look through it you make sure that there's nothing - or I interviewed an Iranian woman who describes how she left Iran illegally She's going to need to edit that out so that when she tries to go back to Iran for a visit she's not going to have issues leaving. AM Now how many people from our era have you interviewed? SY Let's see I have a bunch on the list to interview (repeats herself louder) I have a bunch on the list to interview AM From class of '66? SY Yeah there's - there - because of that recent Vietnam issue that came out of the Norwich Record? AM Right. SY A couple of people came out of the woodwork. AM Right. SY But I think Bill Bonk might be one of the - yeah and other people who were in Vietnam AM Bill was in my class Bill's a pretty good friend of mine yeah. SY He's great He's great A great storyteller. AM Yeah. SY So then I have a bunch of other people who've been in Vietnam but were either behind you or ahead of you right by a couple of years So yeah So that's the way it works AM Okay SY - is we have a conversation you get it back you get to look at it and then you sign off on it And then you know eventually they'll be a searchable archive So the idea is that if a student is interested in you know in Vietnam they'll go they'll type in "Vietnam" and then all of the transcripts will come up And if they're interested in a particular thing about Vietnam they can search for those particular words or things. AM Okay. SY And they'll have this - this sample set right of Norwich graduates and they'll be able to sort of you know ascertain certain things about US foreign policy in the 20th century I mean the idea is that this will be a research tool. AM Oh okay. SY Yeah So that's - that's essentially that's the way it works. AM Go. SY All right So here we are I'm interviewing Angus Macaulay It is May 5th - AM Are we on? SY Yeah I'm on And I'll just cut out that first part where we were chatting It's May 5th - correct? Yeah and we're at his house in Maine and we're going to begin interviewing I need to check levels AM Okay SY So if you could just I don't know tell me what you ate for breakfast today AM Well this is about - how is that level? Does that level work for you? SY Yeah it's pretty good If we can get just a little closer - AM A little closer Does that level work for you? SY Yeah that's good AM All right SY Let me actually check one thing I need to make sure - I need to know which - yep okay that is number one Okay AM Okay. SY So we're just going to start out a little bit with your early life So where were you born? AM Was born in New York Actually I was born in White Plains New York but I was raised in Chappaqua New York which is just about 35 miles north of New York City and born in 1942 SY And when you were a kid did you have any idea of what you wanted to be when you grew up? AM Well as we were talking earlier I had a you know a couple of things in my life One was I had done a lot of artwork as a kid and I had several members of my family that had served in the military So those were sort of the two options that I was looking at both military and art And I applied to Norwich I also applied to a couple of art schools several art schools in fact And my father who had been an artist early in his life really thought that it would be better for me to get a four-year education And I - so I applied to Norwich I got in and that's where I went That was really the only- that was the only I think there were a couple of other schools I applied and got into but it was the only one that I was really interested in SY And had you gone up and visited beforehand? AM Yeah I think I did Yeah as a matter of fact I think I did SY Do you remember what your impression of it was? AM No I really can't remember at this time I mean I - obviously I - the impressions are all with - when you - I can't remember the highway Route 7 is that the one that comes up from the south? Or Route 9 or whatever it is? Route 9 So I always remember coming back to school The - you sort of see the lights of the school and it did look a little - a little cool particularly in the wintertime So that was my impression But it was always a very pretty campus so SY And something I actually always ask in these interviews with people who have ended up going to war is did you play war as a kid? AM Did I play war as a kid? I think anybody who was raised - born during the war and raised during - in the 50s of course we played war I mean we take a look at what was - take a look at what was playing on the movie houses Every time they ever show the movie Sands of Iwo Jima the Marine Corps goes up so yeah we all did SY Yeah AM So SY OK so - so then you get to Norwich and some people find rook week easy some people find rook week to be quite a shock How did you deal with that first moment of- AM I think I probably adapted easier than most simply because I had gone away to prep school and I had lived away from home And when I put them all - string out years away from home I probably had six six and a half seven years as a boarding student away from my - both my parents were professionals My mother was a writer my dad was an art director/consultant So I was comfortable with living away from home I'd also had an uncle and a cousin that'd gone to West Point so they kind of clued me in to what to expect in other words don't attract too much attention to yourself and get real small for your first year and stay out of trouble So I don't think I was overly shocked by what I found I think there were a lot of people in my class that were and obviously it didn't work out for them and they left The turnover in my class was exceptionally high I believe we had - we started with something like 440 and we wound up graduating about 240 So there was a culture unfortunately up there of breaking you And I think that if you're in that kind of a situation you allow yourself to bend and not break SY Do you remember any moments where you were like what the hell did I get into? AM No SY Yeah AM No SY And do you remember - AM Be sure to speak up because - SY Oh I'm sorry! AM Yeah SY Yeah so you don't remember moments of doubt? AM No SY And do you remember were there moments of - were you frightened? AM No SY Were there parts of being a rook that you enjoyed? AM That I enjoyed? I think I enjoyed the idea of being in a group and I think it's still - this is - I think it's fairly true today I noticed that at Norwich there still is a great deal of bonding within each class And I was in K Company and I - it's funny because every once in a while I'll run into somebody who was in K Company when we were freshman And I was in other companies at Norwich in subsequent years and they would always bring back that we were in K Company together So there was a great bonding as a freshman So if you want to say did I enjoy that? Yeah I enjoyed that I enjoyed the idea of bonding I come out of a prep school - a coeducational prep school I came out of a very liberal prep school I had three girls four girls in my class who went to Bennington I mean you want to talk about you know complete opposites We had kids who went to Reed out in Oregon For me to go to Norwich they all thought I was nuts But - and actually I think I felt closer to the guys I was at Norwich with than I did with the kids I was in prep school with although my politics are probably more tuned you know skew more liberal than 90% of my class In fact they probably still do today SY Yeah I'm guessing just from having talked to members of your class and having talked to you Yeah So and that's actually something that I was thinking about in the drive up You're a year you're a year younger than my parents I know they were in college when you were in college and had very different experiences For them they were you know getting actively involved in the protest culture that was going on around them So at Norwich you were sort of insulated from the 60s that was emerging around you Were you sort of aware of the - did you feel alienated from the larger context of youth culture in the US? Was that something you thought about when you were there? AM I think that - I think quite frankly I'm not sure I agree with you First of all the culture of the 60s the counterculture of the 60s which you're talking about is something that happened - SY It's a little later AM That happened a little later That happened in 1968 '69 I think we were very much aware of what was going on in the civil rights movement And I - one of the things that - perhaps one of my most vivid memories is when I was 15 years old I went by myself on a bus ride from New York to Tucson Arizona which took me through Georgia Alabama Mississippi and Louisiana And I was by myself and I saw all of the segregation that was going on in the South And my parents were both very very liberal and they warned me about being very careful about what I said That said it also - my selection at Norwich had a great deal to do with why I did not apply to either VMI or The Citadel both of which I probably would have gotten into but I had some real issues with - the whole issue with segregation And it's interesting because at Norwich we were really insulated - we were insulated from that inasmuch as there were no African-Americans in our class And I remember there was a kid - there were a couple of kids - one Brooks who is now on the Board - I think he's on the Board of Trustees He was a year be- couple of years behind me And then there was a guy by the name of Harvey But there were only two or three African-Americans in our class at Norwich when I was there so it was predominantly a very white school It was also a very blue collar school SY Can you talk about that? AM Hmm? SY Can you talk about that? AM Sure I mean I you know I - yeah it was very blue collar One of my classmates Jake Sartz used to say "It's a blue collar military school." A lot of these kids you know I was - I had a sort of biz- I was bizarre A I was a prep school kid - there weren't a lot of prep school kids there Both of my parents were college educated My grandparents were college educ- my grandfather had a PhD in romance languages So I was with guys that - you know we had one classmate of mine who remains one of my favorite people and his father was a garbage collector and he put his child through Norwich and put another kid through college I think that's the great - that's who we are as a society or who we should be as a society Unfortunately I don't think that's where we're going now I think we've gotten to the point now where college education is so prohibitively expensive that it's going to be impossible for a lot of kids who deserve an education aren't going to get them Now all of this said my roommate my senior year - his father was a doctor His sister was at Marymount down in New York and she went on to Georgetown and got her doctorate in microbiology So - and Barry had also been through prep school So there were - there were some of us that had you know whose parents were well educated Roger Bloomfield - his father had gone through the merchant - what was that state? - New York State Maritime Academy and his mother had gone to Skidmore so it's not - and he was from Wellesley so it's not just saying I was alone Predominantly most of these kids were first generation college edu- these were the first kids in the you know to go to college and it was terrific SY Yeah So you were Senior Buck which means to some degree - could you talk about that? AM Yeah I was a Senior - I was a private for my freshman year for my first half of my sophomore year I was promoted to Corporal for my second semester and I was a Senior Buck my junior - a Junior Buck and a Senior Buck I was also involved with - in those days we did a lot of you know we had all these big weekends like Junior Week and Regimental Ball Weekend and all that stuff I did all the decorating for all those things I mean you go back and look at my stuff underneath my thing I was involved in the Outing Club I was involved in Hilly Chilly- do you know what Hilly Chilly is? Mountain and cold weather training I was on the Rescue Team and that was certainly - all of the guys on the Rescue Team - I think I was the only private on the Rescue Team I'm not s- it just wasn't all that important All that rank was - it would have been nice but it wasn't critical I mean we were all going to be Second Lieutenants when we graduated so quite frankly I you know and as I said to you at lunch I thought I saw a lot - as much bad leadership as I saw good leadership I saw some guys up there that - Roger Bloomfield was one Terry Van Meter was another - Terry Van Meter loved the military I mean this guy you know morning noon and night he loved the military but he never foisted it on anyone else He did his job and whatnot On the flip side there were some guys up there that were just - who were colonels and majors and they were - to them it was - it was really political and they were jerks And by the way these are the guys that don't come back to reunions and these the guys that don't give any money to the school I'm sure SY Yeah so you said earlier that you were sort of able to separate the bullshit from what you felt was meaningful So I guess what did you find meaningful and what did you kind of think was bullshit? How did you - AM I thought the Honor Code was the most meaningful thing I got out of the school In fact I wrote to Rich Schneider after reading the book - there's a wonderful book called The Nightingale's Song and it is about John McCain James Webb John Poindexter and Bud McFarlane They were all naval academy graduates they all lived under the honor code You know the story of McCain in Vietnam you know the st- I don't know if you know much about Jim Webb but Jim Webb was a Navy Cross recipient These guys were honorable men Poindexter and McFarlane and Oliver North all got involved with you know with this thing with Iran-Contra and cover-ups and whatnot and it's all about the honor And that's what the book is about and I wrote to Rich Schneider and I said that should be required reading that if you don't have personal honor you don't have nothing SY So do you remember moments when the Honor Code was applied? (phone rings) When you ah let's pause for a moment - AM Don't worry about it SY I don't know I've interviewed other people who had ethical struggles They just - AM I did SY Could you talk about those? AM Yeah I'll tell you a funny story We had a professor that every year would - I was - I can't even remember the course - and - but he would always publish - he always asked three questions on his final exam or five questions whatever it was out of 10 questions or 20 questions And there was always the same 20 questions and he always selected five of them And somebody had figured it out and so what I did was I figured out what 20 questions were and knew what the 20 answers to 20 questions were And I passed the course and all of a sudden I said "Was that an ethical issue?" And so I went to John [Molano?] who was I mean this sounds stupid believe me it sounds - I mean I think how stupid it is I went to Molano who was the Head of the Honor Committee I said "Joe you know I may the heck I may have committed an honor code violation." And I explained it to Joe and Joe said "Get lost That's Mickey Mouse." There were yeah there were honor code violations you know that I saw up there I don't - I don't remember there wasn't any -a lot of stealing I mean it just - it worked Is that what you're asking? SY Yeah moments like that - or how you internalized it It sounds like you resonated with it right away? How was it taught I guess is my question? AM How did you what? SY How was it taught? AM Well (laughs) honestly it's real simple A cadet does not lie steal cheat or condone people who do I mean (laughs) it's not much more to it than that Now you might have a booklet that explains all the legal ramifications but that's the - it's almost like an article in the Constitution it's real simple language - SY And you bought into it right away? It resonated with you? AM I think you buy into it because quite frankly if you don't have it you got to live with yourself And there are things we all - I wrote in that book that I gave you that you did for my 25th reunion about PTSD Did you remember to - did you read what I wrote about it? That there may be instances of PTSD that were caused by people who did things that they weren't particularly proud of Now I'm not sure I haven't modified that a bit to be more empathetic and understanding of what PTSD is I think everybody suffered from it at some degree But I think there were people that if you did watch that documentary on My Lai I was struck - there were two people who were involved one person who feels no responsibility for it and another one who feels a great deal of responsibility for it And I think PTSD has - there is - there were cases of situa- I don't know how people could live with themselves if they committed the kinds of offenses that were committed in Vietnam SY So I mean a big - right I mean when you're looking at something like My Lai or when you're looking at something like Abu Ghraib right? It requires being able to not follow orders right sometimes? AM I had an instance when I first got to Vietnam where I had a platoon and I was assigned to work with an infantry company And we had taken a prisoner - actually we had two of them and both of them were badly wounded they may have been patched up - well one of them excuse me one of them was badly wounded the other one was just tied up He was tied with his hands behind his back And they brought them out to where we were They flew them out by helicopter and we were going to go search for the weapons because the guy was going to take us to where his weapons were And he - one of them was so badly wounded he was on a stretcher and they were actually putting what do you call it some fluids into him or they actually had a bottle up there and the whole trail But the other guy he took these guy- he took the infantry men over to this spider trap - these are tunnels - and he said "It's down - my weapons are down there." And one of the guys went down there and it was booby trapped with spik- with Punji sticks Do you know what they are Punji sticks? They're sharpened bamboo sticks And they pulled him out The guy was messed up badly and everybody was trying to help this guy get him out of the hole and the prisoner broke loose and ran away And fortunately somebody - it took them about a half an hour but they did find him And they brought him back and one of the Vietnamese interpreters started to really beat him up badly to try and get information from him And at one point they dragged him over to one of our armored personnel carriers and said "OK let's roll over - let's roll over him with it." And at that point I said "OK pal that's about as far as I'm going to go." I mean I - you know I was brand new and that's no excuse and this guy was obviously a captain and I was a lieutenant but at that point I saw this thing was going to go across the edge that I wasn't ready to go I think there were a lot of people that were forced into those kinds of situations throughout Vietnam And I'm not going to kid you if you think that any one of us were easy on POWs you're dreaming It was just a very very difficult time particularly when you lost people That gives no excuse to what happened at My Lai because that was his excuse was "I lost a lot of people." Well goddammit I lost a lot of people but I didn't kill people to even the score and what - how are you evening the score? That one I don't get And how do you do it by evening the score with men women and children - or with women and children? I mean that is even further afield so Does that answer your question? SY Yeah what do you think enabled you to stand up to that captain in that moment? (repeats herself louder) What do you think enabled you to stand up to that captain in that moment? AM I don't think it was a big deal I mean I just said "It ain't gonna happen sir." And that didn't happen I mean it just wasn't going to happen I was not going to put one of my vehicles or one of my kids in a position where he had to make you know where he had to be part of that SY In terms of what I've been reading about Vietnam and PTSD I think part of what happened to a lot of enlisted men was that they didn't have officers who were taking care of them right? So the fact that you were thinking about what that would do to the men in your platoon protected them and so there was still a moral universe that they were functioning within Does that make sense? AM Well I think it makes sense I - there's a film out called Platoon I don't know if you've ever seen it but if you haven't seen it I really suggest you do And in the film the platoon sergeant Sergeant Barnes literally was pushing a platoon leader a young lieutenant around you know so you're not going to do this you're not going to do that Quite frankly I had the good fortune of having served for a year in K- almost a year in Korea I'd been a company commander in Korea and I had more sergeants rep- I had you know piles of sergeants reporting to me and other officers So at that point nobody was going to talk - no non-commissioned officer was going to talk to me and no enlisted officer - no enlisted man- was going to talk to me By the same token I had a wonderful medic who worked for me who used to remind me that we all put our pants on the same way every morning one leg at a time And quite frankly it was a tough enough situation that I didn't - you didn't have to spend a lot of time saluting and whatever I must say that in - I was really quite honored of the fact that I was always shown the greatest respect The main guys were very good to me Maybe the best reward I got was I got a wonderful gold watch mailed to me by my unit after I left I don't know how the guys got those gold watches from their unit We got you know other stuff But you know when I got that that's always been a prize possession SY What do you think made you a good leader? (repeats herself louder) What do you think made you a good leader? AM I don't know that I was a good leader I just (laughs) - I was a - you know I - that's tough to say what is a good leader and what's a bad leader? I think it - it's a matter of - well there's a thing that they try and - they used to try and talk about it The most important thing to start with is the mission I mean you got a job to do And then the second most important thing is to take care of your people And then the third thing to worry about is to take care of yourself Unfortunately I used to put it this way Vietnam was full of a lot of guys who were interested in their career There were not a lot of professionals We were talking about Fran Brennan who was the Class of 1964 Fran was a consummate professional I went down and spent a day with Fran He was a company commander He had A Company- first of the 6th Infantry You could just see the way he carried himself from the way he acted around his people that this was a guy they absolutely loved and respected So you know what do I think makes a great leader? Guys like Fran Brennan they're great leaders and what you try to do is you know you try and think how would Fran Brennan have operated? I had a comp- troop commander a company commander in Korea named [Daryl Blaylock?] and he was the same kind of guy He'd been an all-American at Alabama played football career army officer - and it was just the way he treated people If you treat people with respect you know and make them p- not make them part of the decision process because it isn't a democracy You always have to remember at best it's an enlightened despotism That you just treat people with respect make them part of the process let them know what's going on try not to be too terribly - show any you know too terrible - fear because quite frankly when things start happening quickly as it did a number of times after a while you try not to show it if you can But by the way anybody who tells you you weren't scared is either a fool or crazy or doesn't know what they're talking about SY Yeah Let's go back a little bit Did you commission right after you graduated? AM Right SY You did? AM Yeah SY Yeah And you went to Korea? AM Well first I went down to Fort Knox and I spent - went down to the Armor Officers Basic course at Fort Knox And I had volunteered for Vietnam at Norwich SY Really? And did you know what was going on over there? AM Oh yeah But I - this is part of who I am I mean to be honest is that I kind of sensed what was going - I sensed the importance of what was going on I'm not sure I sens- understood exactly what was going on The Battle of Ia Drang Valley happened the month my senior year November my senior year 1965 and I volunteered not only for Vietnam but I volunteered for the First Calvary Division I'm not sure well first of all I said how the hell can you be in the army and not be where it's happening? What I didn't realize and I came to realize very quickly is that it was the defining moment of my generation I have classmates of mine who and God Bl- I love them dearly and they went to Germany and/or you know they went to Fort Polk Louisiana or Fort Benning and spent two years and got out and did nothing I mean they did their service and they're honorable veterans and they probably would have been superb guys in Vietnam but they weren't there And there was a big difference between being there and not being there So I went to Fort Knox and then when I got to Fort Knox they told me that I had to spend a year at Fort Knox before going to Vietnam but I was going They said "You're going." And I said "Well what am I going to do?" And they said "Well you're going to be an OCS TAC officer You're going to run like Officer Candidates like at Norwich." And I went I hated that stuff I hate all that nonsense of shining your shoes and running around and taking people and bossing and all that stuff And I said "I would really would rather be with troops I want to be with real troops." And so I went to see my company commander and I said "Is there a way I can find some troop duty?" And the guy said "Well not unless you're willing to go to Korea." And I said "Fine I'll go to Korea for a year." And he says "You're crazy." And I went "Yeah but I'm single and I got you know." You see when you're that single I mean you have no other responsibilities and so I got on the phone on - it was funny because there was another guy I grew up with from Pleasantville New York - actually Jimmy [Skiff?] - and Jim said "Gee that's a great idea." He wan- he was going to Vietnam too We had the same timetable And so Jim sat down and wrote a letter to somebody in the Pentagon and I sat down and somebody gave me a phone number and I called the guy - called this guy He said "You crazy?" I said "Yeah." He said "Fine I'll cut your orders this afternoon." You know and Jim had to wait four weeks to get an answer (laughs) So I went to Korea and I got to Korea And they were going to send me to a tank outfit and I went "No I'd rather go to a cav outfit." And they said "Well we got a tank outfit open we need somebody in it - cav outfit." I said "I really rather go to a cav unit." And so I went to attend cav and you know I spent almost nine months there SY What were you doing in Korea and what was your impression of Korea? AM Well you have to realize I still think Korea is even today the most dangerous place in the world We were working - the cav squadron which is a battalion was operating with the 7th Division I started out basically in staff headquarters but they immediately moved me over to B Troop And I was the First Platoon Leader of B Troop and also the Executive Officer because the guy only had - it was the Captain and myself And there were - because Vietnam you got to realize there was such a shortage of officers that it was just him and me And one day he walked in I guess this was around - I put it in my notes but it was in the spring of 1967 he came in and he said - I think I'd been in there three months three and a half months - and he said "Well I got good news and good news." I said "What's that?" He said "The good news is I'm going home early and I'm leaving in two weeks." I said "Great What's the other good news?" He says "You're the new troop commander." So what - Second Lieutenant is normally slotted for platoon and the idea that I'm running now a company and I was doing it by myself with a bunch of sergeants And these guys were terrific I mean these guys really took me under their wing and they taught me a lot of good stuff And so I did that for a year and then finally I started getting in platoon leaders - all of whom by the way had come out of OCS and all of them you know I was at that point I was older than most of these guys I was 24 25 - 24 And these guys were 18 - well no not 18 they were about 19 and 20 years old One or - one of them - two of them had two years of college but they had quit college They were very much like William Calley He was a product of you know he'd spent a year in college and gotten thrown out and. And you know OCS at one time was really one of the really premier ways of commissioning guys During Vietnam I saw a bunch of guys come out of OCS - some of them I thought were terrific and some of them I thought were just bozos because they just - and it wasn't their fault It was - they were just so young So anyway I ran the company for - until September We were basically doing everything from working - doing some work up on the DMZ Basically we were just an occupation force doing a lot of stuff out in the field a lot of training out in the field which was really great for me because by the time I got to Vietnam I was familiar with working with vehicles I was familiar with working with people I was working with - familiar with working with maps with radios and all this stuff Whereas if I had stayed at Fort Knox I would have never gotten that kind of experience Fast forward when I show up in Vietnam I said "Oh I'm up on my way to the 1st Calvary." They said "Well they've changed your orders You're going now to F Troop 17th Cav part of the 196th Light Infantry." Now two things went through my mind First of all I had been at Fort Devens when the 196th was there and they were a complete bozo outfit They were really - couldn't find their way out of a paper bag And the worst of them was this F Troop So I had a real problem and I got up there and of course they'd been in Vietnam for over a year By that time it had all of this all of the badness knocked out of them They were very very good; they were very seasoned When I got to the unit the troop commander opened my 2-0-1 file they looked at my 2-0-1 file and they said "You have more command time than I do." He said "Do you mind commanding a platoon again?" And I said "Why? I'm - I was just promoted to First Lieutenant not to Captain of the whatever-you-want-me-to-do." So I was a platoon leader for four months and then became Executive Officer just when the Tet Offensive broke out SY When you think about Vietnam do you have sense memories of Vietnam? Smells sounds? AM I don't think there's a day - there's a day that doesn't go by that I don't think about it SY How do you think about it? How does it come to you? AM That's hard to say I mean it just you know different things You know just yeah I mean your mind always sort of lies - I mean for years I couldn't go to sleep at night before without drifting back to it Now it's a lot easier I've remained very close to the people In fact this morning I wrote to - oh probably we're going to have a reunion down in Florida in October and one of the guys who actually had been a driver for me - he and I are coordinating Another guy who had been a driver for me - radio operator you know we're just trying to put it all together so you know I for some reason I will always think about it I mean it just - it comes back so I mean you have to realize that the intensity of those situations particularly the ones when there was some where people were either getting hurt or you were hurting people or you want to call it combat or whatever It's all slow motion I don't know when you talked to other people whether they've said the same thing that you - it - I can - the first big firefight I got into I felt like after you know it seemed like hours Of course I looked at my watch and we'd only been going at it for a half an hour and I felt like I'd been there for four hours or five hours So you're - this - it becomes very intense and the memories and the images become very very vivid in your mind SY Yeah Did you react to battle or combat the way you thought you would beforehand? AM Well as I say in my - in some of the stuff I've left you I mean I - yeah I guess I did No I - that's a hard question to answer I mean I don't know how the hell I thought I was going to react SY How did you react? AM Well I - we - one of the guys because we were a mobile outfit you ask me how could someone have taken pictures? Well because we had mobility and so guys could carry cameras One guy actually had a tape recorder during the middle of a firefight and I remember listening to that tape And it was a major firefight I mean it lasted all day And I think the thing that shocked me the most about that tape was the fact that I sounded reasonably cool on the radio I mean I kept hearing myself and saying "My God you know I was terrified" and I was! And I was listening to the tape and yet the person talking on the radio was not displaying - does that make any sense to you? SY It makes a lot of sense to me that you managed to sort of perform your role AM Well yeah you know - I - yes but don't overstate (laughs) my heroism because believe me it was just - I think it's also part of that if you want to call it the Norwich training or West Point training or VMI or any one of those when you come out of that there's a lot of that stuff that you - it becomes second nature to you to react to and you do it out of understanding that there are procedures that you're going to have to follow And it's very funny because I remember that we used to have this thing called Mars Stations and Mars Stations were these telephone setups where you could call the United States And I'd been overseas at that point probably 15 months and I hadn't spoken to my parents and - it's not like today with a cell phone - and so somebody set up a phone call and when you get on the radio - when you get on the phone you're actually talking on a radio that you know the guy briefing you said "Look it's just like radio procedure" you know you talk and then you say "Over." You know you use all the formality of radio procedure Well hell I get on the phone I was so excited I forgot radio procedure On the other hand my mother who had never talked on a radio in her life had been briefed similar and she was doing everything correctly So yeah I don't know SY Do you still have your letters? Does anybody have the letters you wrote? AM Yeah I have them upstairs and actually I didn't send them to you when they did that issue Yeah I have them SY Would - are you - is there any part - you want to donate them or are they too private? AM There's some things in there It's funny you should say that because when I - when that whole thing came up and they were looking for letters and I was going to send them in and I had found them and it was when I was a company commander And it was a letter I found And by the way ask me about the second letter because I want to talk about the second letter that I got Well no maybe a third one I went and read that letter and it was sort of not chatty it was sort of telling them what was going on This had to have been in the spring of '6-summer of '68 And I remember reading in a line or a paragraph about the fact that one of my people had been charged with rape which was unusual for our unit And what really shocked me today is I can't remember exactly what happened SY I suspect there was so much going on that was so awful all the time that that one just disappeared AM Well you know it's very funny - well before I get to the second letter I'll mention another one We had a - we were operating out of a - at one point in the summer of 1968 they took my company they put us out on a base camp out in the middle of nowhere in the Quế Sơn Valley a place called LZ Colt And by the way there are photographs in that CD that I'm going to give you has pictures of LZ Colt SY I'm wondering if we should look through some of this stuff because it might trigger your memories - AM No I know those photographs pretty well We were out there and we used to send guys home three days before - you came out of the field three days before your turn to rotate You know you went - or two days whatever the deal was And we sent the guy back - we sent this kid back to LZ Baldy which was our forward operating area And he was going to get on a truck and he was going to ride in a truck from LZ Baldy about 40 miles - 40 kilometers south to Chu Lai - and he was going to go through the medical thing and clear all his stuff and then fly home That is the last day That's your date you know that's it you're home and it's a cakewalk at that point He's riding in this truck and coming in the opposite direction is a tank And the guy who's riding on the tank wanted to know how f- asks the tank driver "How fast will this thing really go?" And there's an accident and this kid is killed who's on his way home - the last day! That was whatever that date is and you can look it up was the day that Martin Luther King was shot Is that '68? I think it was '68 SY It was '68 AM Yeah it was either Ja- it was either King or Kennedy I can't remember which It was Kennedy I think It was Kennedy SY Right - AM Bobby Kennedy SY - because they were in rapid succession AM And because I had been a big Kennedy pa- fan somebody radioed me and said "Bobby Kennedy has been shot." It was Bob Kennedy And on the heels of that I heard this other news and I just - I remember my reaction was I could really give a shit about Bobby Kennedy at this point The idea that this poor kid had gone through all of this and then died was ridiculous I mean it was just terrible The other one the other letter and I have the letter It was from a parent of a kid we lost and it was right after I became troop commander And the parents were writing me a letter consoling me for the loss of their own son because quote as I recall the words "they knew the kid had been well-led blah blah blah blah." And the problem is is now if we had been talking about my platoon I could remember every kid in my platoon At that point I had a company I had three platoons I remember the kid's name but I couldn't picture his face And here these parents were writing this incredible letter to me and I couldn't remember the kid's face SY Oh! AM So that's you know these are the you know I don't know And there were so many of these you know you lose one the first - last day in Vietnam We had a kid who was killed - I became troop commander when the troop commander just - I became troop commander twice but the second time which for the longest period I took over when the troop commander's vehicle hit a mine and it was made up of white phosphorous Do you know what white phosphorous is? It burned the whole thing burned the entire crew up And he got blown free and he got out and quite frankly it's too bad he got out He should have been killed because quite frankly he had put these people in a position where they should not have been You don't cross a bridge in a vehicle You know that there's going to be a mine at the end of that bridge You go find another way It's the only - but anyway I went back and looked at the vehicle The vehicle was up on its end and everything had fallen down inside And I went back and I purposely went in to look at one of the bodies because the kid had just joined the unit and nobody knew who he was And I always felt that I - I felt an obligation to see this kid if only to remember him because nobody else would And in fact he was so new to the unit that they would not allow me to positively identify him I think you had to be in the unit for seven days or six days or something like that before anybody could give you a positive ID So he was obviously shipped home and done by dental records or something like that So it was you know that was you know there was always that first day there was that last day there was the letter I mean you get these sort of bizarre things that happen to you so there SY Did you have to write letters home - AM Oh yeah SY - when a kid in your unit died? Do you remember that process? AM Yeah and that was strange because I as I said I became troop commander twice The second time- and again it's in that recollections that I wrote- my troop commander went on R&R and he went on R&R the day the Tet Offensive broke out And that in itself would have been OK except we didn't know how serious it was so he went home And he was gone - usually those R&Rs were about a week and he was gone for close to two weeks maybe even a little longer And of course part of the Tet Offensive was they were out planting mines and booby traps all over the place In the first vehicle we lost we had 13 guys on board and all of them were killed Now four of them were part of my troop and nine of them were from the infantry So somebody else had to write those other nine letters but I had to write those four letters But the last guy killed in the whole that two-week period happened to be a guy who was probably my best friend He was a buck sergeant who had been in my platoon And his name was Ron Adams just a terrific guy This was his - he had been in Vietnam with another unit had been sent to us He had had prior service He had been in - I think he had been in the Air Force or Navy I guess - married had a child And I actually got to I mean we were close enough that I knew about his wife and his children and all so And so I sat down and I wrote - I went beyond the quote "standard letter" because I thought that that's what they would want to hear from me because obviously I assumed that they knew that we were pretty good friends Then the letter got bounced back - you can't write that You have to use the form Now in 1997 I posted something about Ron on the virtual wall And I guess I left my email because the next thing I know I got an email from his niece and the next thing I know I got an email from Ron's sister And then Ron's sister called me and asked - she was coming up to Boston - we were living in Boston at the time - and so she would she asked if she could come out and see me I said "Absolutely." So we spent the whole day together talking about her brother And what was sad about it - it was she said you know when he was wounded or when he was killed he was first listed as MIA And she said "The impression we always had is that he had been missing and you all had left him." And I said "Well no nothing but - his vehicle blew up is what happened" and he and another fellow - a kid by the name of Lester Smart Mack Smart Maxwell Smart from Get Smart - remember that movie? Well that's why his nickname was Mack And I said "No no he was killed and you know we put him together and sent him back." And she said "We were always under the impression that you had left him." And I said "Well again that was not true." So. SY I wish you'd been able to send that letter AM Huh? SY I wish you'd been able to send that first letter AM Well you know listen I - you know I write better today than I did then (laughs) I prob- no I you know listen I must say that one thing that supposedly Lyndon Johnson did - are you aware that he signed every letter? SY I wasn't. AM Yeah SY That's interesting AM The way it worked from what I understood is that when someone was lost it would go - the company commander would write a letter and then the battalion commander brigade division And I think it went down to MACP [mortuary affairs collection point] and Westmoreland would sign the letter and then a letter went home But then the whole package went to the White House and he signed it Now I don't know if that's true or not but that was what I was under the impression is the way it operated But the President's letter started and yours was on the bottom But yeah I wrote - that was difficult On the other side I got a letter from one of my - I'll just say one of my company commanders - I won't identify which one But I got - because we were a separate battalion - company we had no battalion I got - somebody walked in my office one day we were back in the rear he said "Lieutenant we have a letter for the chaplain." I said "Well I suppose I'm the chaplain too." And I opened it up and it was from some woman who was obviously an extra-marital girlfriend of the Captain and she was wondering why he hadn't written (laughs) I knew he was married so I - I just - I put that one in the circular file I didn't want to touch that one so my experience of being a chaplain was very short-lived SY Very brief so the guy who you said was your best friend he was a sergeant? AM Yeah SY So was that - I somehow thought because he was technically enlisted because he was an NCO - (repeats herself louder) because he was an NCO - AM Right SY - and you were a commissioned officer would that be considered fraternizing? How did those boundaries work? AM Well I you know I don't think - that - you got to re- I mean think about that question Think about it - no it doesn't - no all that stuff go- that is f- that maybe works in the rear some place But it doesn't work in the real world when somebody is shooting at you or you're out on an operation Now I had a - there was a - I have had - I had one young guy - night we were working an operation and we were working at night and we were loggered up - "loggered up" is like we were hunkered into a position and we had a - we were being infiltrated And I was very cautious about opening fire at night primarily because tracer rounds will give you away And I was telling the guys that "Look these people were coming in so close that we can use hand grenades And the reality is is that hand grenades will leave no telltale where they came from So I want you to toss a grenade out there and scare them away." Quite frankly I didn't want to get into a firefight at that point because it all - it's too confusing but there was an American - we were on one side of a river and there was an American unit on the other side of the river And what I was terrified and actually did happen was we - two American units wound up shooting at each other And that kind of stuff happened But anyway during the course of this sort of very quiet radio talk going back and forth between myself and the sergeant the guy kept saying that he was going to open up fire and I said finally I said "Goddammit I'm the lieutenant and today I get to be the troop commander Now tomorrow if I'm dead and you are the troop commander you can make that decision." And you know but I didn't have to do that kind of stuff a lot That you know that didn't - SY There was no standing on ceremony AM No It really wasn't I will tell you I think probably one of the more amusing - we were out in the valley and there were 30 ve- we had 30-plus vehicles - and it was raining it was lousy and it had been a very uneventful trip And you have to understand everybody is plugged in Everybody has a radio set on everybody's got a microphone the whole thing So you got 30+ vehicles four men - at least four guys per vehicle so you got 120 radios operating Now my - our call - my call sign was Fox - well my call sign had been Fox 6 but my nickname became Fox So they whenever they were talking they would talk Lieutenant Fox and what have you regardless of what our real call sign was So we're crossing this very very shallow river and it was very muddy and one of the vehicles - and we were tired I mean we'd been out for da- several days and we wanted to get back into base camp I was wet I was tired everybody else was wet everybody else was tired everybody else was fed up to here And I remember all of a sudden I got a radio call I would track behind the first platoon - First A vehicle zone and on my vehicle and then there would be 16 vehicles behind me Is that right? And then essentially well essentially I said 24 there'd be two in the head if I was taking 26 out I guess And one of the vehicles behind me threw his track In other words the whole thing came on - off the tracks Does that make sense to you? OK "threw a track." And I got off on a God- because the guy had taken too sharp a turn And I got on a Goddammit! I went on a blue streak of four letter words and I stood up on my vehicle I was looking back at this guy and I'm going on and on and I hear this voice say "Fuck you Fox!" And I looked around and every eyeball in the unit was looking at me And all of a sudden I realized they were absolutely right They were just as tired they were just as wet they were just as pissed off and all I could do was laugh So I mean does that explain to you the relationship? I mean I'm going to need - I wrote an email this morning - the four guys I'm going to - the three guys I'm trying to get together - we're going to be down and - all of them were sergeants One of them lost both legs and his arm you know and we - we don't call each other lieutenant we don't call each other sergeant It's Angus it's Chris it's Jim it's Tom Tom is an interesting guy Tom is a Catholic priest and if Tom says "All those words that you used on the radio I finally learned what they meant when I got to the seminary" because they swore just as bad as you did So I don't know SY I think that story actually answers the question I asked about you as a leader right? That's a moment of you being a good leader It's a moment of you having a sense of humor about yourself It's a moment of you being able to take criticism and feedback right and respond accordingly? AM I don't know you know I think that - you - I - that's a tough one I mean I can't make any judgments about myself as a leader That's you know if you want to know who I was as a leader then call Chris [Wunzer?] up And call Jimmy [Sherslee?] up Talk to those guys That's one of the things that I think that's interesting is that these were kids who - Chris had gone to North Texas State played football Lee [Guava?] had gone to the University of Wisconsin one of the smaller University of Wisconsin Jim Sherslee actually went in the Army because the judge said "Either you go in the Army or you're going two years in the slammer." SY That was how my dad's best friend ended up going to Vietnam Yeah. AM Tom [Trippenere?] I think was always destined for the priesthood But these kids it's incredible because they all were either drafted - most of them were drafted you know they all took on the responsibilities of being young leaders And believe me being a squad leader or a section leader - or scout section leader - with two vehicles you're responsible for eight guys You know every couple of days you're going to be the first guy on the truck and if you want to look at some pictures at what happens to a truck when they hit a mine it takes a lot of guts a lot of courage So again yeah I mean I think that standing on about the ceremony of rank - but they always treated me with you know proper deference always called me "Sir" or "LT"- does that sort of. SY Yeah Was there any such thing as a standard day in Vietnam - AM No SY - or was it different every day? AM No and what there is is by the way there's no Saturdays off either no Sundays off I mean you're working seven days a week You're working 24 hours SY And are you just in sort of a heightened state of anxiety all the time? AM Yeah I'll tell you what I've tried to describe this over the years as saying - have you ever been in an automobile accident? SY Yes AM You know that funny feeling just before you hit? SY It's that feeling where you're like "Oh I might be about to die How do I feel about that?" AM Well it might not even be that It might be just so much as you know that you're going to crunch the fender and is that - SY Inevitability? AM Yeah Now that's what Vietnam was like You just ride around with that little feeling in your gut all the time SY That's a good description yeah AM Yes so I mean and by the way when you heighten your anxiety to that level that's why everything is so vivid People say "Well how the hell could you remember that?" Very simple You're walking around - if you lived your life that way every day 24/7 first of all you'd probably go mad but - and that's why you get people high I imagine you wind up with you know a certain amount of battle fatigue or what have you whatever they call it so SY Yeah Did you have nightmares when you were there? Or did you have nightmares when you came home? AM No SY No? AM No I remember going on R&R and I went up to R&R to camp - I went up to Camp Zama in Japan - was it Camp Zama? I guess it was Camp Zama in Japan and - because I knew a girl up in Tokyo that I had met on R&R - I had met between tours She was an American She was going to the American School - university in Tokyo And I thought there might be something there but there really wasn't And I you know it's - I was pretty much involved with a gal in the States but this girl was very very nice and I just thought I wanted to go back and spend some time with her But I remember getting to Camp Zama and that first night - all the enlisted guys were going to Japan They all took them over to barracks and whatnot And the officers of which there weren't very many of us took us to an officer's BOQ Bachelor Officer Quarters I got a private room and a shower and all that stuff And I remember having to - first of all I couldn't go to sleep because it was so quiet And then I remember actually pulling all my stuff and sleeping on the floor because I was so used to sleeping on the floor of an APC And on the next night I gave in and went to sleep like a regular person SY Like a regular guy So what are the incidents that you've written up? Are they particular incidents? AM Well the only one I really I mean I had written a long article about a helicopter pilot who I thought had done some extraordinary things on Thanksgiving Day in 1967 which was probably the biggest firefight I was ever in SY Do you want to tell that story? AM Hmm? SY Do you want to tell that story? AM Well it's all there I mean I - it - when I say yeah I mean when I say tell a story I was a platoon leader who - we were - we weren't supposed to be there and I didn't even know this other operation was going on And all of a sudden I got a radio call to move about four -three or four kilometers south that our second platoon was - had been amb- partly ambushed and I didn't even know they were part of a major task force And I got down there and they had been ambushed There were two I think it was two companies of Americans plus our - one of our platoons and four tanks And we had run into - and the size of the unit I'm never been - never quite sure but from what I understand it was a couple of companies of North Vietnamese And they took out the platoon leader's tank which took the task force commander and knocked him off the vehicle The vehicle ran over his arm this Major - I've gotten to know the guy very very well His name is [Gill Dorlan?] So all of a sudden I basically you better move down there and help out And so I blithefully charged in there not having a bloody idea what's going on And when we pull in there all these vehicles were sort of limp and getting shot at and there's this big wooden line on a hill and it was just very very messy And so the article I wrote about or what I had written in that article was a helicopter pilot that came in to drop off some infantry support and wound up and not through his own fault but wound up literally landing in a crossfire between us and the North Vietnamese And rather than just taking off dropping the troops he let his helicopter down and acted as a screen so the troops could come back to our line and he was just getting pasted and finally he took off and he was just you know kicking out smoke and all that stuff and went back And I - I've always thought that was probably one of the most heroic things I've ever seen because it was done on purpose I mean clearly he was trying to keep these kids from getting shot up And then the whole operation lasted I guess three or four days And so the next part of the operation was for us to assault the hill and that again is written in all the reflections that I've written about But what I - a couple of things as I was re-reading that again this morning the things I remember most were one the - when we got the orders to move and you asked me about - SY Ethics? AM No natural leadership and also - there also comes a point in time when you wind up being led because everybody's on a radio and so they heard we were moving out and going up that hill and everybody just started moving I didn't have to tell anybody to move They just started moving I always wondered to myself whether - did I really have the courage to give the order to move? And the next thing I know we're trying to - we're going up this hill That's the first thing I remember most about So I was as led as much up that hill as anybody else The second thing I remember most was it was a struggle getting up that hill because these guys were very - these North Vietnamese were dug in in bunkers and whatnot We had to take them out And then when we got to the top we took a round - an RPG round - on the side of our vehicle that hit our vehicle and did not go off It was a dud It would have killed everybody in our vehicle had it gone off And that's real pucker time when something like that happens where you all of a sudden realize you were that close SY And can you think about that afterwards or do you have to not think about it because it'll make you crazy? AM I don't think I thought about it I mean yeah you think about it I mean I th- I'll tell you what you think about it after - there is a photograph - we'll look at the photographs later but there is a photograph where you can actually see the scar on the side of the vehicle SY So you think about it later the next day AM You think about it later I mean one of the things that I - it's not in that piece is how dry my mouth was I mean it was just - for some reason I don't know why we didn't have more water with us because normally we carried - each vehicle carried five gallons of water But for some reason we didn't have a lot of water I remember that was something and I remember my mouth just tasted like it was cotton on the inside The other thing that happened was - once we cleared - got to the top of the hill and cleared that and we sort of in another - and brought some infantry in with us and they got beaten up very badly We started taking fire from behind us and all of a sudden there was that you know that moment go through your mind that "My God we're surrounded" because they were behind us they were ahead of us and all that stuff And that was pretty scary but also we had so much firepower they weren't going to take us out I mean it was just - it was sort of like a Mexican standoff a lot of shooting And again things out of my notes - I remember a couple of times thinking if everybody would just stop shooting for a few minutes so I could collect my thoughts we'd be probably far better off and I could make more rational decisions (laughs) Yeah I mean and then you know and then of course the thing went on for a couple of days And another recollection I put in there is that we were calling in - there was another village that we're getting a lot of fire from and we called - we were calling in some artillery on it And we were far enough away that I thought you could stand up and observe it until I felt a hunk of shrapnel go by my face and I could feel literally the wind when it went sailing by my head which meant if my head had been two inches three inches left or right I would have been killed And that really scared the hell out of me and I remember going back and getting inside my track and hiding That was - it was a hell of a way to spend Thanksgiving I must say And actually also in my recollections at one point a helicopter - we had been screaming for - we had been screaming for re-supply of ammunition because we'd been shooting all morning and our firing discipline was awful In other words we weren't controlling how much we were shooting and I wasn't paying much attention to it I figured "Hell Uncle Sam's running this thing and my God it's a bottomless pit Look at the Defense Department budget." And so when we started running low on ammunition I called for re-supply And this helicopter came in and it's all dusty and the crap is all flying all over the place our guys are kicking this stuff off and running over- and it was somebody's Thanksgiving dinner It wasn't ours and I don't even know who ate it because I didn't eat any of it But we didn't get any ammunition Now there is a story - a friend of mine told me it was back at brigade headquarters - I got on the radio and I said "Look I need ammunition." And he said "But when you asked for that re-supply and that screwed up" he said "you got on the radio" and he said "you used a string of four-letter words about the incompetence of people." And at that point General [Geddes?] who was Division Commander walked into brigade headquarters and there I - and this was on a loudspeaker- I was. And Geddes is supposed to have said "Somebody better get that young lieutenant some ammunition because I think he's pissed off enough to come back and shoot you guys" or words to that effect Now I don't know whether that yarn is true I'd like to believe it is SY It's a good story AM It's a good story SY I like that story So I've read about when I read - I think this might have even been on some of letters I read from Norwich alumni - I don't remember about superstitions good luck charms especially when people were "short." Right? That's the phrase when you're about to go home? Things you did to try and guarantee your safety Did you have any of those? AM No SY No? AM I will tell you that - you got to realize I'm there - I was overseas at this point for almost - over 20 months at this point That was longer than anybody and I - albeit eight of it had been in Korea And I was terrified And I was terrified that I was going to get hurt And you know it's a very - I've always felt very guilty about that because I'm now responsible for these 195 kids and I'm worried about my own personal safety and that started to bo- that did bother me We were down - we were down at a place called - we were down at LZ Ross and it was on this road that took - went into the Quế Sơn Valley And I have to say that road had more destroyed vehicles and junk on it - you could shake a stick - had probably more road - there was more damage on that road than any place in Vietnam There probably were more but it was damn near And we had been down there and we were coming back and it was the day before my ro- my turning over the troop to the new guy and he was a Captain And we rode past A Company of the 2nd or the 1st I remember that - and this old Captain was running it this great old guy he was like in his 30s and I you know I mean he was an old guy and he was in his 30s (laughs) and he had this terrible limp from one of his wounds And we went through the gate and I went "It's over man!" I got out and you know as long as I don't get hit in a car accident or shot down in a helicopter I'm cool I'm golden I'm home And we get in and we dismounted and all of a sudden a radio call comes in saying that there was a unit had started taking fire and that we were the new reaction force And I remember climbing up on my vehicle and this Captain who was going to replace me Jim Owens started to follow me And I looked at him I said "Jim would you please stay here because if I fuck up now I don't want anybody to see it." And we started to head out the gate and all of a sudden they called us back and I didn't have to go But I have to tell you that - all of a sudden it got scary Now I'm going to - I told you this and I'm going to tell you what I did next which was really stupid Get down to Chu Lai and I bump into two guys I knew One of them was a Captain - Air Force Captain - and the other one was an Army Captain And the three of us went out and got rip roaring drunk and the Air Force Captain said "I got to go make a flight in a -" what do you call it a f- he was a forward air controller in an O-2 these little tiny bird dog airplanes He says "You want to go for a ride?" I got in the airplane we went off we flew out and I said "You know we're getting awfully close to Laos." And we were and he was supposed to be making a weather flight All I know is that was the stupidest thing I could have possibly done We landed - this was maybe two days after I had turned over the troops - and my Executive Officer is standing there and he's got two bags on there I said "What are you doing?" He says "I just got you a two-day drop That's your plane you're going home." And I got on my airplane and I went home SY Do you remember the moment you turned over your command? Do you remember saying goodbye to people? AM Well actually that flag right up there is the troop guidon and I stole it And I stole it because dammit I felt I'd earned it and I figured they could find another one My Uncle Sam has this sort of bottomless pit called the defense budget and I figured hell if they can build this F-35 they can find another flag Yeah I turned the company over to this guy named Jim Owens who was a National Guard officer and he was a good guy wound up losing his leg And I remember turning the troop over to him and it was a very formal ceremony You know a brigade commander was there and the flags were passed and all that stuff And these guys starting passing out the front gate I mean literally mounted up on it right back to the field And I cried like a baby SY And what were you thinking while you were crying? AM That how much I loved those guys and how much I wished I could stay But that's a very lethal place SY Simultaneously you wished you could stay and wanted to run like hell at the same time AM Yeah You know it's very funny because I had a difficult time when I came home - SY Yeah let's talk about that AM - because I realized I was pretty - when you say I was a good leader I don't know if I was a good leader but I was good at my job And I knew what I was doing And probably the biggest thing that was wrong with that whole war was the fact that it took them a year to find a - somebody who really understood his job and all of a sudden they bring in this guy nice guy but they had to teach him that job all over again SY Right And so everybody was rotating out as soon as they got seasoned AM Yeah I mean once you understood - I mean we would have gotten out of Vietnam if somebody had said "OK we're going to send a half a million Americans to Vietnam and the only people that are - the only people that get to come home are the wounded and the dead And we're just going to keep sending replacements so anyway so those of you guys who were there you'd better win this damn thing" because that's basically the way the North Vietnamese were operating I mean these guys you know that's the thing we all seem to forget is that they were good soldiers They were hard tough soldiers and these guys A were fighting for all the values that we purportedly were fighting for and the reality is that they didn't get to go home They fought until they were either dead wounded or you know They certainly didn't go home on R&R and they didn't have you know Coca Cola they didn't have television they didn't have all that nonsense We brought too much creature comforts to it all I remember going down to Chu Lai on a stand down - we used to pull units out took them down and basically cleaned guys up because after you've been out on the field for a while they pick up all sorts of garbage And you want to get them a little life of sanity you see SY We're talking like lice fungus like all - AM Well we would take them down to the Chu Lai beach and we used to rotate a platoon down at a time And you know we'd get down there and we'd get them some steak and we'd you know beer and take them to the beach and all that stuff And there were - I guess they went to the village and played around with the girls I suppose SY I was going to say they picked up some other things too AM Yeah that's true too But I remember riding along the bunker line at Chu Lai and riding by a bunker - and I was - and when I was down in Chu Lai I actually put on my little lieutenant bar and all that stuff pretended to be an officer And I remember riding by the bunker line at night and all of a sudden I saw what looked like I thought a television screen And I stopped the guy backed up - we backed up my Jeep and drove over to the bunker And these guys were in there watching television and they were watching and laughing And I'm saying to myself "This is insanity You got kids out there -" and that by the way is the other issue And I don't know any of the other guys you talked to about - you talked to Bill Bonk - Bill was on a very [012352] (inaudible) aviation outfit and you really couldn't make a lot of mistakes in his business because not only were you getting shot at but you also had to fly an airplane We didn't have the drug problem and that's something you haven't asked about The drug problem - I imagine it went on I know that I caught one guy with - a buck sergeant early on with a guy in my platoon actually - I caught him with a - SY A joint? AM - like a baggie full of five joints He was changing a track and he was looking for a cigarette And he says "Lieutenant would you reach in my pocket and get a cigarette?" Well I reached in and grabbed a pack but I felt something else I pulled it out I looked at it and I just dropped it in the mud and stepped on it and handed him his cigarettes But I don't recall drugs being a big problem - SY So there was no heroin in your unit? AM No no But - the marijuana - but we did have situations where people would bring it up that "So-and-so is smoking dope." And this is how I handled it We had a mortar section and a mortar section is - do you know what a mortar is? SY Uh-huh AM OK We had a mortar section and we had three mortars And I guess we had maybe 10 guys and it was in our big base camp And we couldn't - we didn't carry those mortars out to the field They were too heavy and they were a pain in the neck and carried off too much ammunition shot it off too fast and a lot - too many problems associated with mortars So we just left them in and we left the crews there and we left a lot of illumination And their job was that if base camp got hit they would you know the parachute flares the illumination also So I stole an idea from a movie and it was a wonderful probably the best leadership movie I've ever seen called Twelve O'clock High where the commander of the aviation unit has - takes all the bad guys in the unit and puts them in one bomber He calls it the - what the hell did he call it? I can't remember what he called it - it'll come to me But he put all the bad eggs in one basket So I made - so I took anybody I caught smoking dope I put them down in the mortar pits All you had to do was drop rounds and pop illumination And I would tell guys you're going to you know you're going down to purgatory and you're going down there and if you go home with heroin habits that's your problem but I'm not going to have you in the field Now was it a big problem? No and only because most of the guys didn't want to go to the field with a doper SY Right What about race in your unit? That's the other thing - AM Race? SY - we haven't talked about yeah AM That's an interesting question and I'll answer it two ways One is when guys - it was called the Leper Colony I would call them the Leper Colony that's what it was I had a platoon leader who was from Tennessee and he was a real Southerner and named Larry [Beetle?] - nice guy And Larry came to me at one point and he said "You know when you get a replacement in if you say well I need a rifleman." Who needs a rifleman? "Second Platoon needs a rifleman." So I just sent him Well Larry came to me one day and he said "Well you know I know you don't think about this but I'm the only white guy in the unit in my platoon." And all of a sudden I went whoah! And I started looking around and sure enough most of the Second Platoon - I think there were maybe one or two guys - the platoon sergeant was white - actually it was platoon leader was a Cherokee Indian and all of a sudden I saw that there was a potential problem So I just quietly started moving people around The other racial issue that came up was recently I was out in - two years ago or a year and a half ago? - two years ago I was down in Washington at a reunion and I was with one of our guys named Bill [Fong?] Bill was Chinese And I said to Bill because of my family association with the 442nd we got talking about Japanese-Americans in the Second World War with the 4-4-2 and I said "How as an Asian did you feel with all the dehumanizing that we do very well in the United States when we want to get angry at an enemy -" By the way it's common practice by everybody so it's not just an American trait OK? And he said you know - I said "How did you deal with that? I mean you're out in the field with some guy who's calling - using all those pejorative terms? How do you deal with that?" And Bill said "Lieutenant you got to remember you know they're all stupid people in the world." SY It still must have been hard AM Yeah so you don't. He said "Ninety percent of the time I was dealt with as an American and not as the fact that I was Chinese-American." And he said "Ten percent of the time they're stupid." SY Do you think there is a way to fight a war without that type of deh- (repeats herself louder) Do you think there is a way to fight a war without that type of dehumanization of the enemy? AM No I wish there were It's interesting because we've allowed it - it's become more apparent in this current situation with the Islamic war than it certainly was with Vietnam I mean I you know you got to realize like in Korea they had all the different - that all worked in Korea too Slope dank you know - SY Gook? AM Gook - the whole thing It's funny is that whenever they - and Charlie and of course whenever we got screwed badly and someone would say Charles' name it was a sign of respect - we would call him Charles - Charles has been up to his hole But this whole thing with the situation in Islamic thing I hear people talk and I go I cannot believe they talk the way they do And somebody wrote to me recently - an ultra-conservative person - who said "Well we all do it." No we all don't do it I'm afraid that's no that you just don't do that You don't - and he gave me all the lists of words that people use And I said no we don't use those words - you may use them but don't try and paint me with your brush SY Yeah Have you ever been tempted to go back to Vietnam - AM No SY - to visit? No? Interesting AM Not really It - I mean it's -have you seen pictures of the place? It's absolutely gorgeous SY I have yeah AM But no no I mean I've seen it I will say that I do go back to Korea and that - I've been back to Korea three times not up to where I was But I've been to Seoul three times and I mean the difference between Seoul - when I saw Seoul in 1968 I think the highest building in Seoul was eight stories Now it's - have you ever been to Seoul? SY No but I have a close - a couple of close friends who are living there AM I mean it's a very cosmopolitan city SY It is yeah I have to run to the bathroom So let's take a little break and then - and I'm also aware that you're probably getting tired - (audio break) AM Coming home? SY I was going to ask you about coming home Let me turn this back on AM Has this been basically what you wanted? SY This is great This is exactly what I want So let's talk about coming home and let's also talk about how the anti-war movement has been building up while you were in Vietnam So is this something that you hear - AM Are we on? SY Yeah we're on Is this something that you sort of had been hearing about in Vietnam? Or is it something you have time to think about? Is it something you - AM No We have time to think about that nonsense I think this anti-war movement - I think your generation is as fascinated with the anti-war movement as my generation was fascinated with - my mother - counterculture movement of the 1920s In other words if you weren't there doing the Charleston you really don't know how to do the Charleston My impression of the anti-war movement and don't make - don't mistake what I'm saying It was terribly important and it made a great - it made an enormous impact on this country I think it had some negative impact one of which was that the first thing Nixon did was get rid of the draft And he created a quote "all volunteer army" which in my mind means that we now have a very right-wing professional military which is too closely tied to the defense industry OK? When you look at 70% of the general officers who retired going to work for a defense contractor that seriously worries me especially when you get into this whole notion of honor and ethics And some general standing up and saying "I'm pitching you to buy an F-35 fighter but oh by the way I wouldn't consult you if I didn't think it was something we needed that was the best in the world because after all I did go to West Point where duty-honor-country means everything." That's bullshit If you're paying a guy $200000 a year to sell airplanes he's working for the $200000 - not for some ethics OK? That said you have to remember that the anti-war movement whether it was the University of Wisconsin or Princeton or Harvard or Kent State - they were a small fraction of the generation Most of these people people like my wife were trying to make a living they're trying to get through school they're trying to get on with their lives Now I have a number of friends of mine who were in the anti-war movement One of my closest friends who I lost contact with and I've never been able to re-connect went to Harvard married a girl whose father was a general in the Army they became - he became very heavily involved in the anti-war movement and it cost him his marriage because when he got his notice he went to Canada and she stayed My partner at a Magazine Services in New York was in Chicago throwing rocks and he was on a rock band And we have a picture that we used to send out to clients which had a picture of me in Vietnam and it has a picture of him in his rock band and it said "Magazine Services We can do it the easy way or the hard way." So the reality is I use- I have - I think a lot of these people in the anti-war movement including Jane Fonda they paid an enormous price with their families and with their friends I sat at dinner one time with a client and there were two people running down - not running the war down but they were sort of discussing the war and finally the more senior president of this ad agency piped up and said "How you know how can you talk this way in front of Angus?" And what I found out later is his son had deserted and gone to Canada and this guy was a veteran So here was a situation where a family had been just torn apart So the anti-war movement - and my feeling about Jane Fonda - everybody always gets upset about Jane is she wrote in her book and I have no reason not to believe her that the moment she sat down at that anti-aircraft gun she knew she'd made a mistake that she was being used Do I think that it changed her views on the war? No - Tom Hayden her husband - very heavily involved in the anti-war movement At Inc Magazine one of my closest friends was Bo [Browingham?] who was one of the leaders of the anti-war movement at Princeton And when Bo and I went to China together everybody said "Boy wait till those two guys get talking." It turns out we - Bo and I have been very very good friends I think Bo's argument and my argument -that people sat on the sidelines and did nothing They took no position and they allowed by the way Richard Nixon to carry that war on for another four and a half years all of which we conveniently forget SY Yeah So what was it like to come back home? What was it like to re-introduce you to- AM It's funny I'm glad you asked that There are two - I'll give you some three things that happened One was I was lucky and that - well I'll tell you the whole trip I got into- I got separated I was still in uniform obviously traveling on boarders And I came down - went down to see my sister in Phoenix from Fort McChord Air Force base up in Washington And I remember an airline stewardess being very solicitous in taking care of me and all that stuff and she was saying something to the effect of you know I said "Geez you don't have to do that you don't have to -" giving me free drinks and all this stuff She said "Believe me they're going to treat you like trash." And I remember on the trip being a layover in Chicago and there was this - I had this feeling by being in uniform that I was - that I had - that I was - there was something wrong with me that I was almost like the plague Now the nice thing was is that when I got home my parents were there with my brothers and my s- all the - the whole family all the signs and all that stuff - "Welcome Home" blah blah blah So I had a very nice welcome home from my family Now my mother and father - my mother is I think I told you was a writer and my father was an art director/business consultant - and my parents were very - my mother was so n- she was so fearful of the military that she wouldn't even come to my graduation at Norwich She didn't come SY Fearful in what way? AM Hmm? SY Fearful in what way? AM She had a brother - she had lost someone in the First World War her brother had fought with the 442nd in Italy in the Second World War I mean she'd seen what the war had done And so when I was graduating and I kind of pretty well knew where I was going and she just said "I can't handle it." She did not want to come to graduation I mean you're looking at my class they were all in uniform everybody was going into the Army She knew what the deal was So we got home and my parents used to have these wonderful dinners My parents had a very formal dining room It's a big house in Chappaqua And so we all sat around the table and I was still in uniform and my mother had built this - she was a fabulous cook and she said "Well tell me what do they all think of Premier Kỳ?" It was at that point - and because my parents were very active pro-political people - and my father didn't like the question because there had been a demonstration in Central Park a couple of months a couple of weeks before he said where literally people were carrying the flag of the country that was trying to kill your son You know literally he was upset about the question and all The way I framed it back to my mother was saying "Look What people don't really quite understand about that is that the average South Vietnamese person doesn't even know who he is." If a local dai uy who's a local Captain - is a thief they like to say "If you're working for the people they might be sympathetic to the government." But it's you know all politics is local whether it's here or there And to realize is what you don't understand is you live in an electronic age where you can worry about what your Congressman in Washington is doing They're worrying about what their local alderman is doing in their town And most Americans didn't quite understand that What I came to find out came to realize as I started to get around the country what was going on was less of the anti-war movement- but the anti-war movement was also morphing into the Black Panther movement SY I got to change batteries but keep talking We still got a little bit of juice AM Do you have some juice in there? SY I got another battery AM Oh you got another battery? Well let's just change your battery SY All right here we go Give me 30 seconds and we're recording again AM OK The other thing that was going on in this country as much as the anti-war movement was beginning to resonate in - throughout the country the civil rights movement had morphed into something more violent and that was the Black Panther movement And one of the - and I remember telling my mom and dad that - because my mother and father I mean we - I got to tell you the other one with my mother too About 20 or 30 days into being home and by this time my sisters and - my brothers and what all they're all gone home back to their own homes but they were - they asked me what changes have you seen? And I said - because I was going into the city every day - I was interviewing for jobs and I said "I smell racial violence." And I said this country is very very close to exploding into - I said there is so much racial tension in this country I could just feel it It was completely different the way it was from what I recall when I left almost two years ago And it was more certainly than what I was feeling in Vietnam Interestingly in Vietnam nobody really - in those situations you shouldn't really be worrying about skin pigment at that point You're worrying about whether you can trust the person on either side of you But that was the first thing that was so - that really struck me was how much tension there was in this country racially Because you asked this racial question about Vietnam - I'm saying it was - it was just as tense here but I don't think people because when you're something around something day in and day out you may not necessarily see it SY Yeah you can't smell it any more AM Yeah The other thing that happened that day coming home is my parents had this you know this large home And I guess to keep my mother busy she went through everything I owned And you got to realize I'd been away at school most of my life and so she'd taken all my school team pictures and stuff like that had them all framed And she had this room done in red white and blue and all this And pennants and all this stuff and I - I went upstairs when my mom and dad said "Well I want you to go and see your room." So we went upstairs to my room my mother was still downstairs My father got into the room with me and I looked around this room and you got to realize what I - the responsibility I'd just had and I looked at her I said who does she think I am? This is not - I'm not Leave It To Beaver And that's what a mother sees her child A mother never really sees her child as an adult I don't think And my father turned to me and said "Your mother put a lot of work in this Live with it for 30 days and then make sure you get yourself out of here." And it was good advice and he was right The other thing that struck me I went to work in the training program at McGraw-Hill And I was work- I was assigned to work on a weekly magazine and I - my job was to basically go call on all the cat-and-dog little classified accounts And it was all terribly disorganized and so I remember them handing me this box full of 3x5 cards and I was supposed to file them by category and then in each category alphabetically And I'm sitting there at my desk saying to myself - now this is what I did become an officer again I said are you kidding me man? I had clerks that did this stuff for me in the Army Yeah you're going from writing letters to people's parents to doing this kind of crap? Well this went on for a while and I - the resentment in me really started to build because there was a lot of other chicken shit jobs that they had me doing And one day I went down if you know New York - do you know New York at all? SY Oh yes I grew up in - AM New York City Charlie Brown's you know Charlie Brown's at Grand Central Station? It was a great saloon in Grand - SY Oh I've walked passed it but yeah AM Anyway I went down to Charlie Brown's one Friday - I went Thursday afternoon for lunch And I went down there with this other guy in the McGraw-Hill training program who was a former Marine officer And I was terribly upset Now he had never been overseas He had just done his time and gotten out And we started drinking and I had more - too much to drink And he finally said "Well you know if you're really pissed off go tell your boss." And that was the worst advice I could have gotten because I did it And I went in and I told my boss that this was a chicken shit assignment and I said I'm out of here And I was seriously at that point - and I had been thinking about actually going back into the service at that point I was so - I thought that what was going on in the real world was so unimportant And what happened was I came in to work the next day terrible hangover and sitting in my boss's office was the Vice President of Marketing for the company and "Come on and sit down." I sat down and he said "I understand we had a little bit of an incident yesterday." And I said yeah and he said "We really don't want to lose you." And I said well and he said "But you've also pissed some people off." And he said "Now this means I got to hide you I've got an assignment in Dallas and I've got an assignment in Chicago Which one do you want?" And I said "I've never been to Dallas." So I went to Dallas I met my wife and the rest is history SY Really? AM Yeah SY And how did you meet her? AM Blind date SY In Dallas? Is she from Dallas? AM South Dakota I met her on September 6th and we were married on December 20th SY That's fast When it works it works AM I was - I think it's fast We've been married almost 45 years SY Yeah? AM Yeah SY Yeah Had you considered staying in the Army? AM Yeah I mean I did and part of the reason I went to Norwich was primarily because I probably thought very seriously about it SY But were you fed up by the end of your tour? AM I think what - I'd thought about this I think probably in some respects doing two tours was a good idea because the first tour got me really ready for the second tour far bett- I was better prepared for my Vietnam tour than 90% of the lieutenants I met because most of these guys you know were doing something other than what they would be doing in Vietnam And I at least got a chance to get some hands-on experience On the back side of that - on the flip side of it was I also stayed too long I was there too long because when I came home I was mentally exhausted SY How did that manifest itself? AM I guess I just didn't want the responsibility any more I didn't want to worry about other people And it's interesting you should say that because when I was - you asked me at lunch about "Oh you resigned from McGraw-Hill and.?" Yeah and what it was why I resigned from McGraw-Hill was I mean there were a lot of reasons I talked about market share and whatnot but when I was managing a sales staff - and I was managing a sales staff of 17 people - behind Business Week I think we were the second or third largest magazine in the company It was a big magazine It was a big deal And if you covered an ad agency and I covered the client - it was what they called split credit on billings and all this stuff and I used to get these absolute chicken shit memos from sales reps worrying about whether they got 10% of the credit or 15% of the credit on a million dollar deal In other words they were so caught up in all of the little minutiae that when I resigned and when I was asked why are you quitting? Well I think Inc is a better opportunity and it's a growing opportunity but I'm also tired of all the bullshit I'm tired of being responsible for whether Johnny so-and-so gets a $500 commission check or whether he gets a $700 commission check on a guy who's making $85000 a year - and this by the way was 30 years ago Why don't you worry about going from $85000 to $105000 rather than worrying about $750? And that was the difference at Inc At Inc. it was you know you made your own - you pack your own parachute and you made your own bonus and interestingly enough financially I made out like a bandit I mean I made more money doing this working for somebody other than McGraw-Hill Yeah I would have gotten a gold watch and they used to give out a neat tie when you worked - had been there for 25 years But hell you can go to Brooks Brothers you can get one of those for 50 bucks SY Right yeah And you don't seem like you were a company man for either the military or McGraw-Hill You didn't want to be a company man AM Well yeah but you also have to respect company Now - I - you know I look at a guy like - Fran Brennan was a - Fran Brennan was the quintessential company guy I don't think there's anybody in the military that I could find that I would respect more than Fran Brennan because Fran Brennan was the kind of guy that led from the front A guy I spoke about a few minutes ago Gill Dorlan you know they handed him the Distinguished Service Cross which right behind the Medal of Honor is the second highest award they give out you know He also I mean he was the youngest Major in his class from West Point He quit too you know he tossed it out but he was a consummate professional You understand what I'm saying? The difference between being a professional and being a career guy SY I do AM You do SY I do understand that AM I know you do I know you do SY Yeah but yeah I think it's an important distinction AM The other thing and interestingly enough one of the things that McGraw-Hill had that it lost - and it lost about the time I was leaving was McGraw-Hill had a very serious mentoring system Albeit these guys started out as ad sales guys there were some very very bright guys At one point McGraw-Hill was made up primarily of Ivy Leaguers I mean you have the - well the McGraw family they were all Princeton people but there were a lot of Dartmouth guys a lot of Yale guys whatnot And it's funny because the guy I worked for in Dallas he was a petroleum engineer and you know I always sat with him He taught me how to really listen and learn about a client's business The guy I worked for in Cleveland the guy who ran the Cleveland office taught me about how to think strategically The guy I worked with in Chicago - I wasn't particularly crazy about him as a human being but he was one of the best public speakers I've ever been around so he really showed me a lot about standup presenting skills And the guy I worked for in New York taught me a lot about the minutiae of working inside of a large corporation And McGraw-Hill was very very good on all these mentoring steps and quite frankly I always felt a responsibility that when I had my own sales staff and I hired people that I treated them and taught them all that I could possibly teach them as sort of payback to what had been invested in me And I think that's gone today I don't think people in your generation - no one cares about anybody but [015526] (inaudible) I worry about me and they don't worry about whether you're making a contribution to somebody's career. SY I think that's true I think that culture is dead AM Well one of the other things that's gone too by the way - when I went through the McGraw-Hill training program and when you read my thing it sounds like I was only in it for 6 months Actually you're a probationary employee I think for 18 months Now that was their formal training program And we used to come back every quarter all the trainees They would recruit 15 trainees a year They would interview maybe 300 people And I was an experiment where they hired five Vietnam veterans and then they hired five guys out of industry and five guys out of grad school And they put you into this class SY Ooo! What was that like? AM Oh it was terrific and I will say the Vietnam guys did better than everybody else We were all much older we weren't older mentally - physically we were older mentally We were far more mature But we all did very very well in our careers SY And was it nice to have four other men who sort of knew what you'd just gone through? AM Well yeah they were all different experience One guy had been an F-105 pilot another guy had been a medic another guy had run Swift boats like John Kerry and another guy had been a navigator on a I think it was on a B-52 So we were all sort of varied experiences of the war None of them really common The guys we hired out of industry one of them is still one of my closest friends Andy [Gandon?] He was a bench chemist and worked for BF Goodrich and they hired him on Modern Plastics magazine And Andy said something very interesting He was up here last year He said "The reason why" he says "I think you did better than most of us is that we learned how to do our jobs and then we just kept doing that same job for 30 years You kept changing the job You kept changing the parameters of the job." SY Yeah you got bored AM Yeah that's right I get bored very easily And so if you don't change - if you can't change the game change the rules SY Yeah So something I asked Bill Bonk and he had some good answers about it that I want to make sure to ask you is so you know Norwich was founded on this idea of the citizen - (repeats herself louder) Norwich was founded on this idea of the citizen-soldier AM Yeah SY Is that something that you relate to? Is that something that - AM Oh absolutely I - and I think it's something this country has lost No that's not fair We haven't lost it We've lost it in the regular Army and the Marines and the Navy and the Air Force And interestingly enough the Air Force the Navy and the Marine Corps were always voluntary services The Army was always subject to draft And by the way so was the Marine Corps During the Vietnam War the Marines actually drafted A lot of people don't know that but they did And they also did in the Second World War I think when we took away the draft we took a piece out of that citizen-soldier equation One of my favorite photographs from World War II are two guys in the Navy And they're both on bunks And one's an officer the other one's an enlisted man The officer is reading a comic book and the enlisted man is reading Tolstoy I don't sense that you have a lot of guys reading Tolstoy who are enlisted any more I think you need - I think that if we had a draft - had we had a draft we would have been very reluctant to invade Iraq. SY So you're saying if a draft works correctly it's a corrective - AM Absolutely SY - to sort of hawkish or cowboy foreign policy AM Absolutely Absolutely SY That's interesting AM Well I mean the reality is is that if all of a sudden - I'm talking about a fair draft I'm not talking about six deferments But if all of a sudden Senator so-and-so's son was at risk or more importantly the son of his largest donor was at risk - my brother said something very interesting to - of a guy who owned our company and he actually had Inc Magazine He also had owned Sail Magazine where my brother worked My brother is a Marine fighter pilot And neither Don nor I are hawks We're both politically are pretty much on the same wavelength And one night they were all hunkered up and they were drinking and the guy who owned the magazine was talking about how he managed to get out of the draft and everybody was laughing at his stories And my brother just said "I'm just curious" and the guy looked at him and said "What are you curious about?" He said "Well somebody had to take your place Do you think he survived?" If we had a true citizen-soldiery that we keep talking about it would have been - it would be based on a fair and equitable draft Now on the other side of it one of the things that people like Ford and Sullivan who had a tremendous influence on it and for whom I have a great respect - he and there's a guy by the name of Vuono and General Meyer- these guys were Chiefs of Staff of the Army When they were put into this situation of creating an all-volunteer army they built a model which depended upon the National Guard Now what you haven't asked is and you wouldn't know to I got called back twice SY Did you really? AM Oh yeah to work with the National Guard And I have to tell you that was a joke and an experience I mean to the point where it was almost insulting how bad they were But I was also in a meeting where - with a battalion of the Louisiana National Guard with the battalion commander - this is 1971 the war is still going on - and I'm quote an "advisory" with several other former officers from Vietnam And this battalion commander announces to the battalion "I know why you're all National Guard You're here to avoid the war in Vietnam." And I think he used the word "illegal" war in Vietnam or "immoral" war And everybody - the guys who'd been in Vietnam we all looked at each other saying what the hell is going on? Now we've gone from that - then I was with the New York National Guard and these guys were a bunch of stockbrokers And you know one guy asked me "Say Lieutenant can I have your Jeep? I need to go in town to call." I'm going wait a second you know We didn't get a chance in Vietnam to say hey listen hold on to the war I got to go make a phone call I got to call my broker I will say the National Guard has done a superb job You know they picked up the slack But yeah I think Norwich has an important role playing that I think unfortunately it may be losing it There's so many of these kids now who are going to Norwich with the idea they're going to make a career of the military I don't think in my class there were that many I think there were oh I think there were probably 12 or 15 guys in my class who wound up staying in the military that spent their whole career in the military. SY Yeah I think that is I think that is different I think there is a new more career (crosstalk inaudible) [020343] - AM We had a lot of colonels in my class both lieutenant colonels and a couple of full colonels I mean let's see Johnny [Otis?] Bill [Bell?] there was one or two others that were full colonels in my class SY So I'm flagging a little bit One last question I think is important because most people don't know about long-term health repercussions of Vietnam Could you talk about that? About the long-term health effects - even though you weren't wounded - the long-term health effects of having survived? AM Well I think that - well I think that yeah I have - I have maybe 40% of my hearing I have arthritis which is directly attributed to Vietnam And I've had two hip replacements I think the other thing that we - we lose sight of the fact you know there's always - in every unit there's always a wise ass no they're dozens of wise asses believe me and they're very smart kids And that's what I always loved about American GIs is they are always very very funny and they're smart They have a language of their own They just - there's a - Hemingway wrote a wonderful book during the Second World War about the language and how the language of the GIs and their humor is just incredible But it's also very black very dark And I remember we had lost a kid and we were waiting to evacuate his remains and this wise ass said something to the effect "Well that cost us another quarter of a million dollars." And I went you know and of course at that point I was you know kind of upset and I said "What do you mean?" And he said "Well look at it this way Lieutenant He's married he had a child and he started going through all the benefits." And he said "By the time we're through"- now this is 1968 "that's going to cost the United States government another quarter of a million dollars." Now fast forward to your 2015 and we look at - now I go to the VA hospitals on a pre- at least a couple of times a year and you walk in and you take a look at these broken up bodies and you realize that every time you send a kid out there and he comes back with a leg missing or an arm missing it's going to cost the United States taxpayers And I hate to put it in those kind of cold-blooded terms but I don't think we even think about those kinds of things By the way I will say that despite all the bad press about the VA I think the VA has done a pretty good job at least here in Maine I also know - I talked to my cardiologist who went to Harvard Medical School and I asked him what he thought of the VA and he said that when he was going to Harvard he used to go over to the VA And he said "You walk down the VA and you would see world-class doctors from Harvard Medical School Boston College Medical School." We're going to be on Friday with some friends of ours whose daughter was a cancer - is now a cancer research specialist All of her training came through the VA So I understand the sort of wonderful political footballs that get tossed out there about the VA and how bad it is or how incompetent it is or what a waste it is But you want to think about our system by comparison to the Russian system Imagine what happened in the Soviet Union when it collapsed in 1990 about the time the millions -I don't mean the hundreds of thousands but the millions of Soviet soldiers that went through the Second World War with what they had to do what do you think they got out of the deal? Or think about the VA system that must be going on in a place like Vietnam? It's not - yeah we have problems but by comparison - SY I think it also depends on who you are when you access the system I interviewed a Norwich alumni who - alum who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and had some head injuries and PTSD And he had a lot of trouble accessing resources because I think the VA is better with broken bones and concrete things than they are with psychological types of injuries He had a hard time getting resources AM Be careful be careful Let me tell you - it's funny you should - let's - that's a good question to ask but before you make that - come to that conclusion think about this Who do you think the hearing people in the world are? SY The best what? AM Hearing SY I don't know AM VA Why? How come? They got more of it Who do you think got the best burn research in the world? SY Right I mean it's a huge organization yeah AM OK in other words I would say the VA is probably doing a better job with PTSD and I don't know than the Defense Department is doing with IEDs The reality is is that and I will - before you leave I'll show you some photographs of what it looks like when an armored personnel carrier hits a 2000-pound bomb SY Actually let's look at those photographs now Maybe we can look at them while we're on tape? AM Here I can put up - put this on you want to leave this one? SY Yeah Let's leave it on because - AM Yeah we'll do this I got it right here SY Yeah Great AM But what I'm saying what I'm saying is that for - what's his name? - our friend Donald Rumsfeld to start talking about well you go to war with the army that you got - now let me see if I can find it That'll make it easier for you to. You know Donald Rumsfeld wants to say we go to war with the army that you got yeah well we had - this is what an armored personnel carrier looks like after it's been hit SY Hmm AM That's a hole in the ground SY Wow where is this? AM This is in the Quế Sơn Valley SY And do you remember the particular hit? AM Thirteen people were on that vehicle SY That's the story you were telling me about the 13 people - AM Thirteen people SY - including the close friend of yours AM Uh no he was killed later on he was killed about oh four or five days later Now there were 13 boys on that But that's my point is that the IED mine problem was there in 1968 and all of a sudden we had to go out and create new vehicles I don't know what they call them now but you know there's a whole new family of vehicles we had to create when we were crea- after going through this kind of nonsense did we think that IEDs and mines were going to go away? SY Yeah I don't know. AM No it's a very effective weapon That happens to be a mine that we dug up That's a small anti-personnel mine Those are Punji sticks SY Yeah we talked about those And what beach is that - do you know? AM Yeah this was taken out west of LZ Baldy and this actually was taken during a what - this became a firefight actually And you can see we just landed infantry And the sand out there was just like it was like flour SY It looks like snow AM It does look like snow And this is the helicopters coming in SY Do you remember that guy? AM Huh? SY Do you remember that guy? AM Yeah that's Sergeant [Pattengill?] That's Sergeant Patty He became a sergeant major terrific guy And that guy became a Catholic priest SY That's the guy who became a priest? AM Yep And that guy became a - went back to college and became a computer programmer He's got a masters degree in information systems and is a software developer has his own software firm And then this is the last day I was in - that's the whole unit lined up SY To say goodbye to you? AM Yep And then we were - this guy became an attorney This fellow right here is a South Vietnamese He actually had been a Vietcong He pulled us out of a minefield and I am awarding him the Bronze Star SY Really? Right here you're awarding him the Bronze Star That's what you're doing right in this picture? AM Yeah And I don't remember that guy And then that's me SY Yeah Same mustache! AM Huh? SY It looked like you with the mustache in the picture AM Yeah SY He has that same mustache AM This is a - SY Let's talk about that painting AM Well the painting - you know the story behind it? It's now in the Vietnam Veterans Museum in Chicago And I had always wanted to do a painting on Vietnam And what I appreciate most about the painting was a couple of things one is I actually went to Chicago and actually saw it hanging in the museum And I have to tell you maybe the biggest trip in the world for any painter is to actually go to a real museum and this is a - this is not a bunch of guys a bunch of old hippies - this is a real museum I mean it's spectacular It was a great facility then it's now even more spectacular So it was a big deal to see it The second thing is that there were two things I wanted to paint I wanted to paint one like this so these guys sort of hanging out You can see there C-ration cans and he's sleeping these two guys are reading a newspaper there's some beer cans one guy is on watch - because 90% 95% of Vietnam was all about boredom And I don't think enough people talk about that It's very very very boring because you're - and then of course the other 5% is stark terror Anyway when I sent this Chicago paint- painting to Chicago I went out to see it I was up on the third floor and one of the curators came up to me She said "Is this your painting?" I said yeah And she said "I want you to know we bring groups in here And the children love this painting This one always gets -" And I said "Really?" I said "How is that? Why is that?" And she said "Because all the other ones are violent and this one isn't." The other painting I wanted to do and I started it and I never finished it is you can see all these rice paddies in these dikes People were - these were all built by hand OK they were all - you've seen pictures of rice paddy docks? And it always - and you can see what happens when you run your tread over the dikes is it - actually it smashes those And I wanted to do a painting of the track going through the rice paddies and the malt spilling out and losing their water and all that stuff And I was going to call the thing "Collateral Damage" because we don't really think about how much damage we created just in the - to their - to the local agrarian environment SY Yeah So why didn't you finish it? Did you get stuck? AM Yeah I mean a lot of times you don't finish paintings I mean sometimes I work - I mean this one if I had to do it again I'd do it again And I - SY Was there - you - so what about this image felt so important to you? Because you usually paint from photographs and this isn't from a photograph AM No This is from memory SY So you remember this moment? Or is it a combination? AM Not particularly I created a moment I created a moment and of course I know the vehicle well enough that I can paint the vehicle in my sleep SY Yeah Are there other moments in Vietnam - images - that you want to put on the canvas? AM Yeah there is one I don't think I've got a photo- I used to have a photograph of it And I - whenever I thought about Vietnam it was - I can't find it - that we were up on a top of a hill and I remember staring down - in fact we were on top of that hill right there And I was staring down when I took the photograph a machine gun And I remember just - I remember the image of staring down that machine gun and it just has always stayed with me SY And what was on the other side? What did you see? AM Hmm? SY What did you see? You're staring through a machine gun? AM Well I was just staring behind a machine gun And I remember taking a photograph of it I'm just looking at an open field but that image just somehow always resonated with me SY Is it the contrast of sort of the beautiful open field and looking down a machine gun? AM Perhaps I mean I - you know it's tough to read what goes through your mind I mean you know it's funny I talked about coming - going to Vietnam - coming to V-coming home Going to Vietnam was interesting too because most of the guys they all like Bill Bonk and people like that they all would go to McChord Air Force base and they would get on a transport and they'd fly you know there would be a bus that would pick them up at I guess they were going to Tân Sơn Nhất? And you know they were all you know so they just. Not me I had to go to Japan see I was coming out of Japan So I went and picked up my orders and I was on Air Vietnam not on military flight I was just on a bigger civilian flight The government paid for it And I remember I get on this airplane and it was all these businessmen and they were all in their blue you know blue bla- you know blue pin-striped grey flannel suits or whatever they wore They all looked like a bunch of commuters going some place and here I am in uniform and I'm going to war SY Right you felt like you were - AM And we're all going to the same place SY You felt like you were in Metro North but instead you were - AM Yeah I mean I felt like I was on a commuter line and then I remember we landed We didn't land at Tân Sơn we landed at Saigon Airport which was whatever the big airport was We didn't land at a military airport We landed at a civilian airport which is like you know landing at Westchester County Airport So I get out and it was funny because all these guys you know scurry to get out and I said "I'm going to be here for a year So I'm just going to take my time." And I remember clearing the hatch and walking across the runway and thinking "Well I haven't been shot yet So far so good." And then there was a reception desk for it just said "incoming military personnel" and so I walked over and I handed the guy my orders And he said "Well we'll take you over to Long Bình" and - which is the replacement center And I said fine So they put me on this bus with a couple of other guys and I noticed that there was wire on all the windows and I realized that's so that they don't throw hand grenades into the bus - these people are serious And of course then I got over to Long Bình and I remember going into the officers' club and sitting next to a guy who had gone to Harvard It turned out he'd gone to Harvard He was going home And I said "Really?" He said "Yeah." And he said "Where you going?" I said "Oh I'm going up north." And he said "Well how do you feel?" And I said "Well I think I can handle most of it but God I hate snakes I really hate snakes." The guy said "Don't worry about it." He says "I've been here a year I haven't seen a snake I've been in the bush most of the year." He said "I have not seen a stinking snake." I'm going to tell you I saw every snake this guy never saw I must have seen dozens of snakes - God I hate them I really hate snakes (laughs) OK really it's almost like - what was that thing? Indiana Jones and all he hated is snakes live sa- (laughs) SY Here are your snakes yeah yeah AM But - and so it was that - my welcome to Vietnam was kind of you know it was really like landing in a commuter flight and it was you know going into war SY How surreal AM So it was kind of interesting SY It was a very surreal moment Whew! AM Anything else? SY I'm losing steam AM All right SY I got a drive ahead of me AM OK SY Do you have any last thoughts? This was wonderful AM No I you know I think - don't mistake what you might perceive as my liberal - being fairly liberal as a criticism of the job I think people did I think the kids who certainly in the military it's very very tough job And I - the experience has been important to me because I know I have a - who knows but I have an idea of how difficult their job is I don't have any idea how difficult the job is today but I sense how difficult the job is and I have nothing more but the utmost respect for them It's a very very tough challenging life By the way one of the best honors that I've gotten is there was a book - I think I've told - maybe I didn't tell you There's a book written about our unit and my name came up a couple of times And about three years ago four years ago the unit had morphed up to a full squadron full battalion and they were going to Iraq And so they called me and asked me if I would come out and speak to their young officers about the pressure of leading as a junior officer And I have to tell you that was a tremendous honor to be asked to - I flew to Alaska and I visited with these guys And then they asked me to stay that Saturday night to speak to the entire group at their regimental mess And I started talking about how important that unit was to me personally and quite frankly how much I wish I was going with them I remember when the first Iraq war broke out and when those kids crossed that burn that - breaking into Kuwait and I'm not a drinker I mean I did when I was younger but I don't drink normally I have a glass of wine at night I guess so I guess I am a drinker now But then I really just did not drink at all And I remember my wife was not home and they were describing them going through that burn and I went over and opened a bottle of wine and drank the whole bottle of wine because I had this sense of understanding - or at least I think I understood what they were going to be going through And I just - it just - I wanted to be numb I didn't want to imagine what these poor kids were going to go through And it's how I feel today I'm so terrified about this whole thing with Iran getting - spinning out of control And not because it makes any sense but for political expedience It's nuts It really is I don't know Any other questions? SY I don't think so I don't think so When you say - when you talk about wanting to go to war with them - I guess I do have another question - is it because you feel like you want to be supporting them through what they're going to struggle through? Is it because you miss the camaraderie? Is it because you miss that sense of purpose? Is it because you feel a sense of duty? What is it exactly? AM Oh I think it's a combination of all of that You know these were the best friends I ever had I mean I - it's funny my father said to me when I gra- when I went to Norwich he said that these would be the best friends you'll ever have And in part he's cor-he was right But it's interesting it took me four years to form a bond that it took me only a year to form with a lot of these kids in Vietnam I'll also say something else about Norwich which I think is important to be said And I don't think having not gone to Norwich you can't understand this and I'm not even sure the civilian students at Norwich can understand it My older brother went to Georgetown and when I moved back to New England he lived in Marblehead And so I would get him out to a hockey game or a Norwich hockey game or what have you And then at one point I took him up to Norwich - and he's a very bright I mean very very smart guy And I remember him you know looking around at Norwich and finally sort of saying he said "You know I've always sort of envied the relationship you had with both the school and with your classmates." He said "So much so that I finally went back to Georgetown for my class reunion and realized how much I hated the place." You - I don't think kids understand how close the relationships are Does that come through still? SY Yes that does come through still Without a doubt that comes through still. AM Yeah and I think you see this by the way at the service academies and that's the only place - you may see it at a small Catholic school like you know where the Jesuits are running it you know like a place like - is it Holy Cross? SY It is Holy Cross AM Is it Holy Cross Jesuit? SY Holy Cross Jesuit yeah AM But if you go to a Jesuit school perhaps you might see it But certainly at Annapolis and Norwich VMI - they have this same - I mean I can remember my brother's best friend in the Marine Corps was a VMI guy When he heard I went to Norwich "How come he's not going to VMI?" "Well you know" my brother said "they're all the same quite frankly." (laughs) So OK? Anything else? SY I think we've covered you know most of the known universe in this interview We talked about a lot AM Are we off now? SY Let me turn - END OF AUDIO FILE