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Transcript of an oral history interview with Linnea "Lin" (Peterson) Westberg conducted by Sarah Yahm at the interviewee's home in Nashua, New Hampshire on February 5, 2015, as part of the Norwich Voices oral history project of the Sullivan Museum and History Center. Lin Westberg was one of the first women to join the Norwich University Corps of Cadets in 1974. Includes discussion of her experiences as a student at Norwich University and her later careers in the Air Force and as a school counselor. ; Linnea "Lin" Westberg (Peterson), NU 1978, Oral History Interview February 5, 2015 Interviewee's home in Nashua, New Hampshire Interviewed by Sarah Yahm Transcribed by C.T. Haywood, NU '12 February 10, 2015 SY: Okay, so let me just start the official interview. I'm here with Linn Westberg. It's—it is February 5th 2015 and I'm at her house in Nashua, New Hampshire. And usually you start an oral history interview from the beginning. So where were you born? LW: I was born in Lowell, Massachusetts. Grew up in Westford, Mass. SY: Excellent LW: Not too far from there. SY: And when you were growing up what did you want to be? LW: Hmm….Originally something in the medical field I think. You know, I didn't really have any great ideas about careers although my mother was pretty, I guess for her time, sort of ahead of the game. She was a lab director of a meteorology lab and she worked for the federal government which back then - so she was sort of the only mom that wasn't in the neighborhood when we were growing up, you know. But I, she managed it kind of like how we all do today. So I think when it was I went to Norwich that I sort of solidified my different goals and career plans. SY: And did you come from a military family? LW: No, that's interesting because I was sort of going through my things when you called a little bit and my dad was not in the military, but both brothers were. So my oldest brother served in the Army, First Lieutenant Jeff Peterson, and unfortunately he was tragically killed while he served at a young age. And he's buried at Arlington. We were just there. My brother—other brother, Greg Peterson, went to Norwich and so he also served. He was in the Army and he did a full career, both active and then as a reserve officer and he retired as lieutenant colonel and he was a helicopter pilot. So… SY: Were they both in Vietnam? LW: Um no, J—my oldest brother, was killed you know while he was on active duty, but not in Vietnam. And then my, the middle brother, 'cause they're quite a bit older than me, the middle brother, he, there's a law where sole surviving sons and daughters do not have to serve if, you know, so he was able to do - he didn't have to go to Vietnam. He was able to fly [clears throat] like he flew in Korea and did things like that, so. And he's a big supporter of Norwich. He went up there on a basketball scholarship and then his son went to Norwich and his wife's sister went to Norwich. So there's sort of this legacy [chuckles] and I think that's pretty common. SY: I think it is too. Do you remember going up and visiting him there? LW: Oh yeah. SY: Yeah what you think? LW: Very much. SY: What was your first impression? LW: So Greg is ten years older than me and I very much, you know, we used to take the old Route 12 up from here before they built all the 89 and everything, and so it was a big trek to go up there. And I distinctly remember going up there that first Parent Weekend with my parents and seeing him at Norwich and you the whole military thing and it really, I mean it really, it was just an amazing thing to see. You know, you'd [he'd] been an athlete in high school went up there on a basketball scholarship, full basketball scholarship, and you know I was kind of enamored with the school but never of thought of it as a place for me at the time. SY: Well, and that's funny 'cause when I interview, I mean I've mostly been interviewing men and I always ask them like, "did you play war as a kid? Did you play military? Did you play army?" And I should ask you that that too. LW: Yeah, I tended to do a lot of kind of boy th— I think I was a tomboy. I remember asking for cap guns and race cars and I never thought really, and I played with all the traditional girl toys too. But yeah I grew up in a neighborhood where there were a lot kids and we went out and we had acorn fights and we played outside for hours at a time. So very, you know sort of busy kind of kinda outdoorsy kinda upbringing. Camping, all those kinds of things. Hiking. SY: So when did you find out that Norwich was taking women? LW: I think it was my senior year. So I had applied to three or four colleges: Wellesley College, which is an all-girls school; Northeastern University that my oldest brother had gone to; and then University of Lowell, which was the local state school. And in, I really wasn't excited about any…I guess it just hadn't hit me and I said to my dad, "I'd like to go up and look at Norwich." And he's like, "No, that's another admissions fee. We're not going up there." And I said, so I kind of begged him and he said, "Alright." So we went up in the [laughs] in the middle of the winter and, 'cause I just remember walking around the campus in the snow. And it hit me right away that's where I was gonna go because I think it was surprisingly, and people are I think who don't know Norwich, it was extremely welcoming environment. So you would think like Wellesley being all-girls or some of these other schools, but I think it's 'cause it's small. So it was about 1500 students and, you know, the professors were friendly. We met the president, and we met the commandant of cadets. It just was, you know, I said, "This is it. This is where I want to go." That's how I ended up there. SY: And did you know you were gonna be in the Corps? LW: No. SY: Okay. LW: No, because women - here were women matriculating prior to me getting there from Vermont College, meaning they were coming over on a bus and taking classes. And then there was a small contingent of women enrolled in the ROTC program who I believe were just kinda coming over for ROTC classes but they weren't in the Corps. So they would wear the uniform one day a week, go to classes, and then back over to Vermont College to live. So sometime between my visit and the spring of my senior year, in that summer, some decisions must have been made. I don't know. Because I got a call over the summer from Colonel John Wadsworth asking me if I wanted to join the Corps of Cadets. I knew, I knew they were women, somehow I knew, because I wouldn't have wanted to do the bus thing from Vermont College. But he asked me if I wanted to join and I said, I mean it was a very quick decis--I said, "Sure, yeah, I'll do that." [chuckle] Honestly, I really had no idea what that meant. I just, I kind of though like everybody was doing it you know. And without like today's social media you weren't connecting with other people so the first I knew was that when I showed up there in August. SY: Did you get this letter? LW: Let me see, "Dear Ms." [chuckles] SY: Yeah, they left it blank, they didn't fill that in, I think it's hilarious. I think that was their prototype. I just found that in the archives yesterday LW: Oh my gosh. SY: in Loring Hart's papers. Pausing to read. SY: But you remember getting a phone call not a letter? LW: I got a phone call, I don't remember this letter actually. SY: Yeah. LW: It could have come, yeah, honestly I don't remember. But I don't know I'd love a copy at some point, that's interesting. SY: Here take it. LW: Oh thank you, SY: It's yours, I have a scan Linn laughs SW: and I just printed it out. I have some other things from the archives too if you want them you can take them. LW: Yeah, that's kind of fun to read, yeah. SY: Yeah. LW: Yeah, I've some newspaper articles too for you. I don't know if you have them, SY: Oh okay. LW: That you can—yeah, sort of the local Vermont papers were kind of interested in what was going on. SY: Oh excellent. LW: Yeah, so I'll share all that SY: Very cool. LW: before you go. SY: So okay, so you show up and you said, "Sure, I'll be in the Corps," right? So then did you have a moment where you were like "what did I get into?" LW: Yeah, definitely. Sort of the first issue was they hadn't told us that everybody showing up was gonna be wearing khaki pants and white shirts. So we showed up in like street clothes. So we already stood out, right, being female. And then to have like really bright clothes, I was like "oh my gosh," you know and then I thought okay this is really interesting. I think my aha moment was definitely in the auditorium or the Plumley Armory when President Hart said, "We'd like to welcome four young women into the freshmen class, Norwich University, you know. 150 years. It was a really nice speech, but we sort of all looked at each other and thought "oh my gosh." SY: Did he make you stand up? LW: I don't remember having to stand up. I just remember feeling really out there, really out there. And my dad was in the back of the room and I was a little worried about him because I was the youngest, my mom had passed away, and I was looking around saying, "oh my God, what's he gonna do?" you know. And he was chatting everybody up and I said, "Okay, he's gonna be fine," and then they marched us up the Hill and you know that's when it really starts. They put you through the whole indoctrination so… SY: And what was— LW: But that didn't seem that unusual because we were just, like they didn't separate us or anything, we were just all part of it. So I didn't feel – and you'd already started, you know, that's where you really begin to connect with the other freshmen. That's really when it starts because you realize you know, okay, the cadre, all these like really mean people and you know when they're not looking you're whispering to each other and you start to connect that way and you know, so. SY: So I somehow thought that women were separated, but you were all tangled, you were all together? LW: Yeah, we were and we weren't. So like that day we were, you know where we went the whole [group went]. But it became pretty apparent that they probably had tried, but hadn't completed like figuring out what we were gonna wear. Because they go, typically freshmen go and they issue your uniforms and so we were getting some uniforms but not all uniforms. SY: Did they cut your hair? LW: We did not have to cut our hair but we had to wear it up. So I came with like hair down to my, you know way down my back, but right away, you know, the Army regulation is above your collar. So we all had long hair and it all had to go up. I think we got white shirts so that improved the whole and whatever we had for pants [chuckles] 'cause the freshmen wore them until they got their uniforms. You wear the khakis. So that was a little bit better but probably one of the biggest challenges was they moved us into Gerard Hall which was the female civilian dorm. And we were put on the top floor upper right corner, upper left corner there, and all the freshmen other women were on the same floor down at the other end of the hall. And that was really weird because we were, you know, going through the whole Rook thing and they weren't. So we'd, you know - but in a way it was we did bond with them as well so it was this dual experience. I mean they were, you know, going out on Friday night and getting dressed up and going out on dates and we couldn't do any of that. So they housed us there for a while and actually our cadre, Nancy whom you've met, and Roberta and Diane Halliday, and there's—I can't think of Mary's last name. So they— SY: Moskos, was it Moskos? LW: That was Roberta Moskos. And Mary - she's in one of the articles - also lived on the floor with us which was also unusual 'cause typically just freshmen males would live to together and maybe a couple of the cadre. And then rest of the upperclassmen would be in the dorm but not on the floor where you're going through that training. So… SY: Yeah it sounds like from when I was talking with Nancy that the relationship between you and the other women who were your cadre was different. LW: Yeah, it was, it was. Yeah I think it was hard for them, yeah this is all in reflection later but I think it was hard for them because they hadn't had full benefit of being freshmen themselves and all that training. But I think they did a really good job trying to do what they were supposed to do. But it was a little more, there was a little more familiarity with them than we would have had certainly with the male cadre. And sometime, maybe November/December, they decided to move us from Gerard Hall over to Patterson Hall and put us in with male freshmen platoon. Got that name right. And so that turned out to be much better because we had, we had freshmen counterparts, males that we were working with every day but we also had sort of these upperclassmen that were supporting us, you know, in addition to like the women cadre. SY: And did you feel sup—'cause I know that the cadre you know that, I mean some of the members of the Corps were like "yay women," and some were not. So how did that play itself out for you? LW: I definitely felt that. For me it was more positive than negative. More support. I think I learned somehow early on that when you're a minority going into that kind of a situation that you somehow, you want to blend to some degree. So, you know, it's much easier to figure things out from within that organization than from trying to fight [chuckles]. Do you know what I mean? So I think I did that, I blended in and I got really active and busy at Norwich. And so then I made a lot of connections and that's how people judge you, based on those personal connections rather than being part of a group. Now people that didn't know us personally, maybe weren't in any classes with us, or that's where you might get a little bit of trouble or they were like from the '50s or something, that whole attitude about women. And there was definitely a few of them floating around. SY: What about professors. Did you feel like the professors welcomed you in their classrooms? LW: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. My roommate is actually the first woman engineer at Norwich. And so she was in all classes with all males and all those engineering professors. I think she would say they were great, you know, and her classmates were great. My professors were wonderful, very supportive, you know. It's a very stressful year trying to keep up with everything as a freshmen there. You know you have to re—you're just learning so much at once. It's like a double education. You're learning your academic stuff but you're also doing all that military stuff. It's like getting a master's degree in human relations 'cause you're learning all about how people interact, and the way people behave in groups. And it's really - when you're going through you don't recognize it, but later you realize "wow" 'cause you come out. And then when you get to the workforce you're like, "wow that was unbelievable what I learned there." SY: So now that you're a counselor, right? LW: Yeah,. SY: So I'm wondering if you can like take your counselor head and think back on that year. So what was, what sort of psychologically was going on during that Rook year? For you and for everyone? LW: I think, to some degree what went on with us was went on with everybody else. Like we had one girl leave, but there were other freshmen that left, you know, it just wasn't a good fit. Perhaps I think, I—you know oftentimes I look back and go would I do that again? Would I choose to do what I did because it has made everything else so much easier? On the other hand, I look at my kid's college educations and I say, "oh." My husband and I go, "are you kidding me?" They, what do they do with all the free time? They only have like five classes or four. We're thinking they're just you know, so I go "yeah I know, but th—it just," in a lot of ways like a lot more than I've witnessed other people had to do that went to a regular college. So… SY: And what about that sense, 'cause isn't the whole idea of the Rook year to sort of break down individuality and create that sense of a collective. Do you remember that process happening? LW: Very much, yeah. And they absolutely do do that. They take you back to the very the basics, you know… SY: Any anecdotes that you remember, any moments? LW: Oh yeah all that stuff in the halls [chuckles]. Getting dragged out in the middle of the night, having them scream at us. I don't know, you know, going—I think, I don't know, I think I - I remember looking around and looking at the fear on everybody's face because you really, like you think this is real what you're going through. And it's very similar to the military training so it's, it's really in many ways identical I think. But you're dealing with less trained people so and you're dealing with college students meaning age wise as far as being thrown into these leadership positions. So you know, I would say, I remember, I remember walking in the gutter, I remember being pulled out of the meat line a lot which was you know and you had to, they'd scream questions at you from the Norwich Rook Book. But I was a diligent student so I didn't struggle with that, you know reading my book and whatever. There was always somebody else that couldn't answer a question. [laughs] So that was, that was pretty easy. I think the physical stuff was the hardest for me and I found that throughout even when I went into the military because it's really a male model okay? And all they do is sort of cut it back a little bit for women, but it's really designed for men and I think they were trying to figure that out at Norwich. And so in the beginning like when we were running, and when they first put us in the guy platoon to run - and I ran a lot before I went to Norwich 'cause I knew you kind of had to be a little bit in shape - and it was still really hard. So you know the more I got in shape the easier it became, but I could never keep up with the men. So you always felt like a little bit sort of a like a day late and a dollar short. You know what I mean? SY: Did you also feel like you had the responsibility to prove that women could do it? LW: Yes, yeah. But I don't know, you know I think on the other hand I used to think about some of the guys that were having trouble and then thinking like, wow you know 'cause I mean they would they were a little softer on us if we couldn't do it. But they would scream at the guys if they couldn't do it. So that was, so I was very empathetic I think to anybody that struggled because it was just something that was harder for us. It really was. And then you know people were not slouches by any means it's just that it was a different level of fitness than you know I'd been used to certainly. So I think a big, kind of a cool moment for us, we did the Dog River whatever it's called thing, and all of us did really well on that. So we tended to do really well in things requiring stamina and distance and maybe not so well in speed or strength. Certainly I know like my upper body strength, I just didn't have it. Women didn't do push-ups back then, you know, and so, or pull ups or any of that kind of stuff. So I remember that being, that being very challenging and worrying about it like, "Oh my God what if I fall behind? What if I?" You know. That was always weighing on your mind. The other stuff like wearing the uniform, memorizing all of this intellectual pieces were not hard. SY: It was the physical part? LW: It was the physical part. Yeah. SY: Could you talk a little more about that idea of like feeling like you were standing in for a whole group or? LW: You mean like representing women? Yeah I think that's an interesting phenomena and it has made me very sensitive to minorities: religious minorities, racial minorities. Because people tended…I always felt responsible for like whatever I was doing whether it be academically (I know that's ridiculous, but) or how I presented myself is representing not just myself, but like all women. And that's a lot of pressure. So I think, and I think we all kind of felt that way. And I think we also kept an eye on each other like worrying about what they were, other people were doing because particularly we felt super responsible as more women came to Norwich. To make sure, to try to make sure that the path was laid, if you will, and that it was a little bit easier. Because you wanted people to do well, you know, and you didn't want to stand out. You didn't want to, you just wanted to be part of the group, honestly. SY: I'm wondering if you have a memory of like real triumph and a memory of "I want to quit." You know what I'm saying? I would imagine you have both of those. LW: I think that "I want to quit" was they, the whole thing getting recognized thing went on and on [chuckles]. So we did not get recognized till Valentine's Day timeframe. So that started in August and it's like, "Oh my gosh are we ever getting out of the gutter here," you know? It gets to the point where you kind of want to just, you know, be an upperclassmen I guess. And so I think that was like "uh" [sound of frustration] and also when you would see people drop out or struggle or have a hard time that's always very challenging, I think. I loved my classes. I was tired all the time though like you know the professors are trying to keep you awake, because you're up all night doing crazy ridiculous stuff - you know, ironing and doing your brass. I think it's a stamina test in a lot of ways. So I think that's kind of when I was like, "alright." And we did, not my year but subsequent years there were people that would always because it became an option to be a civilian at Norwich. If it wasn't fun people could like [making a noise of pulling the plug] go over to the civilian side, you know. We didn't entirely have that option. I mean I suppose I could have but I was like Norwich is the Corps, you know. Why wouldn't I do that once you're there and you realize that? And then I think probably that same thing I think, you know, graduating from there was a big deal [chuckles]. Graduating with all those guys. That was a pretty, you know, was proud of that. SY: Yeah do you remember how you felt that day? LW: Yeah I was like wow [chuckles], we did this, you know? Three of us made it through from that freshman class. I mean there were only four so that was really good statistics, I think, considering. It was really, every year was groundbreaking if you know what I mean, like women had never held positions of rank, women had never been platoon leaders, women had never commanded a company, women had never, you know, been in ROTC X year. So every year it was the first. So it was wasn't just that first day of Norwich it was all through, so getting through was. But by then, you know, there were women coming behind us so it didn't seem so different. SY: How, was it like to mentor those women coming after you? LW: Well I decided my first year. I, you know, I went back and I didn't and this is another thing that I really learned at Norwich, but coming back I didn't really get involved in sort of the cadre stuff too much. I mean you had to go and apply for these positions and I don't know it was a self-confidence thing but my roommate did, she did and I was like wow I can do that. So I think it was my junior year and I really went for it. I wanted to do like the job that was probably considered the most difficult, and being a platoon sergeant where you're really kind of in charge of a lot of people. And so that, that was, that was a really cool. That was, you know. And that was also the same year, now that was my senior year that - trying to remember. So my senior year I applied to be a company commander and was selected and I've got to tell you you're always sort of like "Am I good enough or they picking me because I'm a woman?" Do you know what I mean? I don't think I felt that way so much but I was always wondering if other people were thinking it [chuckles], "are they doing it because," you know? But I think I earned the respect of my peers so I—once I settled into that and was able to handle it than I felt okay about it, you know? SY: About being? LW: Yeah. SY: In a leadership position? LW: Yeah. SY: And what, I mean I think that something that Norwich does well is it trains people to be leaders to take on leadership roles. So what type of leader did you become, were there models that you were like, "ooh I want be a leader like that" and then other people who you were like, "I don't want to be a leader like that?" LW: Yeah, it's funny you mention that because, um. So when they, so I think I told you my husband's a Norwich grad. So he was actually a junior when I was a freshman and he was one person that I did watch. And it wasn't, it was even before we started dating or any of that, because he was a very sort of honest, you know, just sort of a wonderful supportive person to all of the women. And I thought, but yet he was really respected by everybody. And I think, I think that's the kind of – and he cared about people. So I think that's that perfect blend of a leader, really, somebody who people want to work for because they know that you care about them and you put your, you put them first. And he had actually volunteered to have us in his group. So [chuckles] you know, and so we got to work pretty closely with he and there was… SY: Uh oh hold on. LW: Oh sure, Recording pause and resumes SY: But [coughs] so yeah at the time. So I wonder how your husband felt about women and coming into the Corps? LW: I was asking him I said, "Do you have any memories of this stuff?" I did sort of try to find out like what happened before we came, "Did they train you guys?" He said, "Not much." He felt like it, they weren't really very ready. There was a lot of resistance talked about among the other cadets that he recalls, you know so. I think a lot of the guys that kind of were on our side were the more independent, you know, progressive, kind of thinking kind of people. SY: And what was the resistance about? LW: Women. Just Norwich you know. I think we used to joke "150 years of tradition unmarked by progress." Which really wasn't true because I think they were very progressive in their way. It's just that you sort of you know, I think things happen when things are ready to happen to some degree. I mean women had certainly served in the military, but no woman had gone through a military college prior to what we did. Two years later women were admitted to the service academies and actually we went, we went as a group to West Point and worked with those freshmen. SY: What was that like? LW: They, they were so happy to see us [chuckles]. They were. They had no idea what they gotten into. And I, you know there was a lot of back and forth, I remember because Norwich I think they still send people. There used to be different like, I don't know if history professors set it up, but there were different things you could do, you know, over while you were at Norwich. Or West Point kids, guys would come up to Norwich. And mostly what they experienced is what we experienced and I think we were just there to be supportive. And we talked to the, you know they were actually active Army officers in charge of them. It was very different. It's way more real military. And I came out of there thinking, "Wow you know, Norwich is really a learning lab." I mean they, we didn't have a lot of supervision by Regular Army officers, you know. People were trained, but so you learned as you went, I think, more than having everything spelled out for you. So… SY: Which has its pros and cons, I would imagine? LW: Yeah, well sometimes your—but you know, it's funny, because human behavior is human behavior, you know? But I think they were very watchful to make sure that nothing really negative has, we didn't really have any horrifically negative experiences I would say. At least none that I personally experienced or that would be any different than anyone at a college, you know. But, yeah I would say and it's probably still a problem, I mean how trained is somebody after one year in the Corps of Cadets? You know, so. But I think they're mindful of that and oversee it. I mean, I'm talking about the adults, the staff, the professional staff at the college. And it was helpful to us, they brought in a woman she—she was. she became the Dean of Women. So my first year they brought in a, her job was to kind of I think oversee and look out for us and help with any kind of issue that came up. SY: Oh her name, what was her name? LW: Nunez de Cela. SY: Yeah. LW: Yeah, and actually I have a nice letter from her. SY: Really? LW: Yeah, that I'll show you, SY: I'm wondering if you could read it. Is it long? LW: Where is that letter? [recorder turns off and then turns back on] SY: So let's talk about that letter. LW: Oh, you want me to read the letter? SY: Yeah, yeah I think you should 'cause there's something, it's very respectful and I like the way she talked to you, yeah. LW: Okay, so this is a letter dated February 13, 1975, wow. Dear Private Peterson: At the Recognition Dinner last night I wondered how many of the Rooks, cadre, and staff, realized how different your experiences as Rooks have been from those of the male cadets. Well different they have been no less valid, in many ways yours has been the greatest contribution made to Norwich this year. It is a comfort to follow an established pattern of behavior created by 156 years of tradition. It is a comfort to have leaders who are experienced in guiding new students through the mazes of those behavioral patterns. And finally it is comforting to know exactly where you're headed and what to expect when you arrived there. For you there has no such comfort. From the first you've have had to share the rather awesome responsibilities for the future, not only for your future but also for that of the women who will follow you and of the University as a whole. Your training period demanded maturity from the very first. More than any other Rooks this year you have had the courage and the determination to be first. To make Essayons a reality. As you might well guess the old lady is very proud of you. Best wishes for continued success. Sincerely, Nadine Nunez de Cela, Dean of Women, Assistant Commandant, Norwich University. SY: That's awesome, and she had no military background, did she? LW: I don't think so. SY: Huh, so and what happened to her? LW: [sighs] She was there for a few years. And I was telling you earlier that they decided it would be beneficial to bring in an active Army officer into the ROTC detachment, which was a pretty good move on their part. I will say they were, I think they were forward thinking. I really felt that way. Just, there were always lots of questions everything from well when do you wear this uniform? You know nobody was really familiar with women's uniforms [chuckles]. So I think having somebody there and who had some connections in the Army and who'd been through all of that and in her own way. I mean she was a major at the time, so that was, so I think she's sort of became, I guess you would call it more of the informal. I mean, she was really a regular ROTC instructor but I think her side job was to help us where we needed help and help us pave the path I guess. SY: Yeah [coughs] so did you plan on commissioning? LW: When I was at Norwich, yes. So once I got there I decided that I really liked it, the military lifestyle which I had really had not thought about. There were no role models for women honestly, out there in the world. I mean unless you had a military parent or something, you know. Even though my brothers served it still wasn't something women did in any quantity, and it certainly wasn't in the media. But I really liked the lifestyle once I got through that freshman year and I thought, "Okay, this would be kind of cool," you know, a career. And then, then I met my future husband and he was two years ahead of me and getting a commission in the Marine Corps. So I could not figure out how this was gonna work. So I left the Air Force ROTC program and started to pursue Marine officer commissioning. SY: So what was that like? LW: So it was like, okay I had to go take the officer qualifying test, did all of that which was not easy, because it was definitely a male geared test. [chuckles] It was all like angles and it was a very interesting test. It wasn't anything like the Air Force qualifying test. So that was hard, but I did it. And then so basically I graduated from Norwich and I got married like a week later, and then I left after my honeymoon for Marine Officer Candidate School in Quantico, Virginia. And when I landed there, I realized that this was a first, that no women had gone through Marine OCS with the men. So we were, and prior to that actually I—my husband had connected me with some women and they made it sound like so great, "Oh they teach you how to wear makeup," and "oh you know." It sounded very fluffy. Well it wasn't [laughs]. When I got there it was terrible, oh my gosh it was. I mean they were really out to prove something. So there were fifty women that started with me in this platoon. And imagine I'd already been through Norwich so this was, like the guy was yelling at my ear, but I was like you know that didn't bother me, none of that. The physical stuff was crazy and so each day somebody was getting hurt. So by the third week, like I want to say a third of the women were gone. And so everyday you'd wake up and go it was like okay whose gonna, you know fall off the obstacle course or so. I ended up dislocating my knee which was a minor injury compared to other people. Rehabilitated there and they wanted to cycle me back through and I said, "You know I just don't think I'm cut out. You know I'm not cut out for this." So that was, you know, and then I think I told you a little bit about my story. I later ran into my classmate and decided, you know, I still wanted to serve so went to officer training for the Air Force and I did get commissioned there in June of '80. SY: And it seems like you were like this is crazy I want out. It doesn't seem like you were angsty about it, it doesn't seem like you were like or were you? LW: That I was what? SY: Like you were self-hating about not making through the Marine Corps training? LW: No, I mean, that day I fell off the um, you know, got injured. I was definitely disappointed 'cause I, I thought it was gonna work as far as the two of us being able to be stationed together and you know I still wanted that military career. But I knew that, you know it's interesting because that experience, because there's been lot of conversation later about women serving in combat. And that experience showed me that you have to be a very unusual woman to serve in an infantry combat role. Now, serving in combat can mean a variety of things. You know Air Force pilots are in a plane. It's very different than humping like we were fifty pound packs and rifles and heavy boots and you know you're just smaller physically. The only female that was doing really well was my bunkmate. She was a black belt in karate before she got there. So she was already like super fit. And frankly everybody was like "Get me out. This is like too much." I think they've improved that a lot, you know, I think they learned a lot from that first class. But no I didn't, I was just like, just this isn't… SY: And they weren't rooting for you either? LW: I didn't feel that way. No. SY: Yeah, LW: No. SY: So, okay, so what was the Air Force training like? LW: [laughs] The Air Force is, well physically it's not as demanding. I mean you have to do things like I had to train to run a mile and a half in twelve minutes which is no joke. I had to get up every morning with a bunch of people. You know we would go out and do that and practice. It's a lot of, the Air Force is a huge organization and in a lot of ways I think of it like a business. You're learning all facets of that organization, so it's a lot of classwork actually. You're learning about the mission, you're learning discipline with the marching and the keeping your room clean and all of that. But after Norwich that was a breeze. I mean it was just like go through it, you know. And but there, there were a couple of turning points for me. I had a captain who was my squadron commander and I had applied - so your first six weeks you're sort of in the training mode. Your second six weeks you're in the leadership mode. And you apply for these different positions and I had said, "Oh maybe I'll be the woman liaison officer." So if you can see where women were thinking, okay? And he looked at me and he said, "No," he said, "I want you to apply to be the wing commander," which was the top job and I was like, "Oh you're kidding. I can't do that." He goes, "Yes you can." He said, "I've been watching you for six weeks. That's definitely what you should do." So it took somebody else to tell me that I could do that. And I applied and I got the second position. And so that was that was, that was very conf—that was a huge confidence builder. So, but Norwich had kind of laid the groundwork and then here I was in another situation and it was that person that kind of reached out to me. And so I learned that that's like, I like to do that for people. SY: Yeah, and so have you done that for people? LW: Yes, tried, to, where I see strengths you know you try to point it out. That's how we learn. We learn from other people and how they treat us, right? SY: Yeah it's true, LW: When you think about it yeah, so…. SY: So tell me about your career in the military, so where'd you go next? LW: So then they to another school, so I became. I went to a school Biloxi, Mississippi and I had gone into the Air Force from Guam because that's where my husband was stationed with the Marine Corps, and really wanted to go back there obviously. So this short, small window that opened when I went in was to put officers into flight squadrons to sort of deal with all the administrative details that needed to be dealt with. So that so I went to a school to learn how to be an ex— they called an executive officer and I showed up on the island of Guam for my first assignment at Andersen Air Force Base, walked in with my orders to do that. And they're like "Oh we already have a guy here that's doing it. We're gonna send you over to the maintenance squadron." So I spent a year and a half working in B-52 maintenance squadron which I loved. I loved being on flight line. That was fabulous you know. SY: So did you learn how to fix B-52s? [laughs] LW: No, but all the guys in the squadron that's they did. And women. So I was more, you know as an officer you oversee all of that but you're not turning the actual wrench yourself, you know. So but I just loved it. You're up early, you know, watching the planes take off, watching the guys load them. And making sure that they have everything they need to do their job basically. That's sort of. And while I was there I had an opportunity to work for a general officer, I became a general's, what they call an aide-de-camp. So I worked for him and that was a first, you know, and that was kind of an unusual job I think. So I traveled with him and his entourage, I guess you could call it, and got to do. And I went into the office and became a protocol officer. So we handled all the visiting dignitaries. I got to meet like George Bush, and congressmen would come through. Because this was a big airstrip in the middle of the ocean and they had to refuel so we entertained them all as they came through. But that was fun. SY: And were you living on base with your—? LW: Ah no, yeah we lived, my husband was stationed at the Marine Corps barracks. I was stationed at Andersen and we lived in the middle at the Naval Hospital housing. So we lived with all the Navy doctors and nurses, and dentists and… SY: And I would imagine you had sort of a weird position, like I wonder how you interacted with sort of the Army wives on base. LW: That's…. SY: Weird? LW: Yeah. Ah yes. Well it, not so much on the Air Force base but the mar— so I was part of the Marine Officers' wives club [laughs]. So I would go to work and do my Air Force thing but I loved all these women and so, you know, we had a great time. It was very international group of women, all nationalities that these Marines had met in their assignments all over the world. We just had a great time. Everybody is young, no kids. But we did all traditional wifely things you know. Became very, very, close-knit to that group, as well as all the Air Force people so it was sort of the best of both worlds. And we loved our medical neighbors. It was a fun two years. A lot of good traveling 'cause you're very close to everything in the Far East. So and then from there I went to, I wanted to just, my husband was getting out of the service so I just wanted to find a big city to be stationed in so he could start his career. So we ended up in Denver and he started a civilian career and I worked there in an Air Force training squadron and kind of worked my up to become a squadron commander there which was a great job, because I learned how to be in charge of large groups of people trying to accomplish a mission. That was fun. The location was fun, the people were fun, so I really enjoyed that. Once again had a, you know, some female experiences if you want to call it that. I came in, when I was first assigned there, there was a black first sergeant and he was tough. And I could tell he was like "uch" a woman, and he made some comment like, "Oh I don't think I really want to work for a woman," and I said, "What if I said to you, I don't want to work for black guy?" And he was really taken aback. I don't think, I don't know what he expected from me but we after that we hit it off perfectly [laughs]. It was just I came at him the way he came at me and he knew I wasn't going to fool around and he took care of me and watched my back. You always say that about a good NCO, they watch your back. Even planned my promotion ceremony so, you know, but it was. But I knew how to handle him because of Norwich, you know. I knew, like I don't know what another woman would have done in that situation coming in cold not having worked with all men for four years at Norwich. SY: So what is the skillset? Is it just being direct? Is it just being clear? Is it not being bullied, like what is it? LW: Yeah I think its self-confidence, the way you present yourself that people respect. Yes, and it's also not being bullied. Frankly [clears throat], it's really easy and it's not just for women, but it's really easy to get taken advantage of or get pushed around. It's recognizing when that's happening and asserting yourself and sticking up for yourself and that's nothing that I was born with, I learned all of that. I mean I tell my students now in class, you know I told them 'cause I teach a guidance class, that, you know, the way you present and carry yourself is really how you're gonna be treated. You're gonna be treated the way you demand to be treated, so don't let people do that to you. And that held true in business. Let's face it business is still majority of men and it held true in the military. It holds true everywhere I think, so you know. SY: Yeah, did you see other women [coughs]. Sorry, did you see other women when you were in the service who like didn't have that skillset? Did you see women being bullied or harassed or situations like that? LW: You know it's funny I definitely dealt with some difficult situations, but the few that I dealt with did not involve military women. It was some civilian women. But, you know, I came right to their aid if I thought I saw something going on that was inappropriate, and made sure it was handled and taken care of and made it clear that it wasn't gonna be happening. And I think that makes a big difference, you know. I think most women that are in the military going through the training gives them a pretty good skillset, you know. Unless they have come to the military with issues or something, but the training, meaning mental health problems or other things like that. I think for the most part you know the training is good and it teaches you know teaches you those things like how to, how to lead, how to take care of yourself, how to do what you need to do. SY: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm just gonna go look at my questions. LW: Sure. SY: While I'm doing that why don't you tell me about the Iranian students? LW: Yes, so the Iranian students came in I want to say around 1980 , so I would have been like a sophomore, junior. And they came in in a pretty large number. I mean, and they came in with you know a lot of money. It's really interesting to drop these - they were young, college age kids - in the middle of Vermont. And they really didn't, it was interesting, I think it was true culture shock for them to have, because what happened was my senior I had a, I was a company commander so I had a lot of the Iranian students in my company. And at first they were like "aah" you know they didn't want anything to do with women being in charge of anything. But they came around because they didn't have a choice. But then you know the whole overthrow then they disappeared. And I'm trying to remember when that happened. And they left all of their belongings. SY: Were you there when that happened? LW: Yeah. SY: It was '80 I think . LW: 1980, yeah and some of them defected. I mean some of them went to Canada, some just disappeared into Vermont and I think some went back. SY: Do you remember, I hear there was like a flea market where they were selling all their stuff, do you remember that day? LW: They didn't, a lot of it was left [chuckles]. I mean they left very expensive stuff in their rooms and just left, you know. I think the ones that were afraid and didn't want to go back they didn't care, they were just out of there. But yeah, I'm sure it was, you know, I'm sure. I didn't buy anything but I'm sure there, I'm sure that probably did happen. But yeah, I remember some kids driving Corvettes and you know they were there on full scholarship with big stipends and obviously were the crème de la crème you know. You didn't get out of the country and go to school in another country then if you weren't somebody, so. SY: And what about the Iranian women cadets? Did you know any of them? LW: I did not, that must have been after me or something because I don't remember any women being there, unless I'm just… SY: I think there were a couple, LW: Were there? SY: But maybe just a couple. LW: Yeah that I don't remember. SY: Yeah, yeah and I think they were also integrating their, the navy there. so yeah. LW: Oh okay. SY: Did you know Bizhan? LW: No. SY: That's interesting. He was, I think he was supposed to be class of '80 LW: Okay. SY: He now runs FacOps at Norwich. LW: Oh! SY: He happened to have, he had a different visa than the other cadets because he was like, "I don't think I want to be in the navy anymore," so he was technically out of the navy. LW: Oh. SY: He was able to stay, LW: When this all happened? SY: Right, when everybody else left, yes. LW: Okay. SY: He watched all his friends leave. And do you remember the news of that when you were on campus? LW: You know Norwich, there was never any news [laughs], It was, you were in a bubble, you know. So I think what we knew was what we witnessed and saw and people told us, and I don't remember reading about it, and we certainly didn't have televisions in our rooms [laughs] or anything or you know. We had WNUB but… SY: Right, but that's— LW: Pretty isolated. SY: Yeah, it's funny when I've been interviewing the Vietnam era folks they say the same thing. And it drove them crazy. LW: Laughs SY: They were like I'm - LW: What's going on? SY: going to go there and I don't know what's happening [coughs]. I guess I'm wondering how your Norwich education affects your life today. LW: Well it has affected my life ever since being, um, time management, huge, how to get a lot done in a short amount of time. I think knowing what's important meaning like I watch people get upset and stressed a lot at work about things that I don't think are that worth worrying about. Because I always go to that place like, 'cause over the years when you serve in them military you meet a lot of people that did serve in very unsavory conditions, or had family who had died, or you just heavy duty stuff and so I kind of look at the world from a different perspective and I think it started at Norwich. It helps me in my work every day because I think my perspective is just, you know, I think. One thing that's been interesting, I think my years in business were easy because of Norwich, because what I know about working with males which is different, it really is, behaviorally, the way they think. …But of course I met my wonderful husband. You know I always say that's why I went to Norwich [laughs]. SY: To get your M-r-s. [in a joking tone]. LW: Well no, I had no intention of really. You know there were women that dropped out and got married and I was like "I would never do that. Never." And, but no just the fact that I met him and we're married all these years later, it's just been a wonderful marriage and so I was lucky 'cause I look at it like when I said to my dad that day, "No," I begged him "let me go look at it." You know I did meet Jim there, so that's huge. SY: That's huge. LW: That affects my life everyday [chuckles]. SY: So, okay, so you were in the military for a while. LW: Yup. SY: And then when did you retire? LW: So I did eight years. So in 1988 I got out and I was stationed at Hanscom Air Force Base, that was my last assignment. And I had crossed trained into, like at the end when I was in Denver I said "I need to find a career that I can do on the outside." And my colonel let me go to Contracting Officer School which is a great program. I mean I went to a lot of different schools to become a contracting officer, and did that at Hanscom. So I did like major weapons systems acquisition which is very transferable to the outside. Got out mostly because I had had my first child. I still loved the work but the Air Force had said they'd wanted me to go to Air Command and Staff College at Maxwell Air Force Base, and it's a ten month school, and I just I couldn't leave my son for ten months and go down there. So I said, "Okay, now's the time I'm getting out." Stayed home with him but then was able to take those skills and I worked at a engineering company for quite a while, eight years I guess doing contract negotiation for them. So, you know and did the whole mother juggle thing [chuckles]. SY: Yup, and when did you retrain to be a counselor? LW: A counselor? So when my second child came along it got a little more challenging for me to balance everything the way I wanted to do it. So I stayed home with my daughter Caroline. I guess I worked for a couple of years and then was home with her. So when she got into late middle school I decided—then I was like okay I'm going to go back to work here. What do I really want to do now? Researched a bunch of things, decided to take a course and just see if I enjoyed it, and just fell in love with the field. I think if Norwich had had psychology I would have majored in that but they didn't have that major. And so went back and that was great because I was still home, but I was going to school, and then when she went to high school I was able to find a position as a school counselor. That's what I'm doing now. SY: And you love it. LW: I do. SY: Excellent! LW: Yeah, yeah. SY: One other question, LW: Yeah. SY: And then I don't know if I have any other real questions, you know again I've been reading these books and memoirs by women in the academies. And they talk about this push and pull between sort of trying to blend in and trying to sort of seem as masculine as possible and also wanting to be seen as feminine and as like a potential partner and how did you juggle that? LW: I never wanted to be masculine. Like I always knew I was, you know I never really, but it, but it's a struggle. You know so there's the physical traits in how you carry yourself, but there's also just the, kind of the way you think and the way you approach the world. There's masculine and feminine, right, ways to and I think I just tried to stay true to myself I think in who I was. You know but I mean, yeah, the uniforms were not attractive [chuckles] you know? And the civilian girls always looked so awesome! We were like "Oh my God where'd they ever find these shoes, these black tie shoes?" We would laugh about it/ You had to have a lot of like self-confidence, you really did, because c'mon, you know? SY: And when you went to the Regimental Balls were you allowed to wear dresses or did you have to wear your uniforms? LW: That's interesting 'cause I think it was my first year that I went we were allowed to wear dresses. And I had to borrow a dress 'cause I didn't, you know, from one of the civilian women. She had beautiful gowns and so we all got one from her I guess. But then I was looking through my yearbook and there's a picture of me and I think they changed the rules and we had to wear, and we weren't happy about that. But yeah you know, you're yeah the same but different, let's face it, right? You know I certainly didn't want to wear that Army uniform to the Junior Week or whatever it was, but we all did, you know? SY: Right, of course. LW: Yeah. And I, the pictures [chuckles] so here you go again. So I was on the like the court they picked a queen and I mean, I can't—I don't know if they still do all that. SY: Oh, right I meant to ask you about that. You were Homecoming Queen? LW: Homecoming Queen, yeah. But the picture's of me in the uniform so I'm like was I really picked or was that [laughs] but yeah so that I believe… SY: Who was Homecoming King? LW: Well that, that was different, the All-American Homecoming Queen thing that was, I'm, George Turner, do you know that name? So he was like I think he was head of public relations or something. His wife was the librarian for a number of years. Big sports enthusiasts. SY: I do know that name. I do know him, yes. LW: He wrote a nomination for that and so there were fifty college women. We all came together. It was a pretty cool experience actually and went to Florida and were in the Orange Bowl Parade and the whole. But that was, it was more, it wasn't like, I didn't have to do anything to get that let's put it that way. [laughs] I didn't win anything or achieve anything. I think it was, you know, hey take the opportunities though when you get them, right sometimes. SY: Right, yeah, exactly. So then there are just some questions like do you think about service? Did Norwich teach you to think about service? Do you think about this idea of the citizen soldier? If these are ideas you relate to, great. If they're not ideas you relate to that's fine [laughs]. LW: No they're ideas that I relate to. That's the first thing they talk to you about, and you don't know what that is. Today kids do. Then I think we did it, you know my parents had me in Girl Scouts, and going to church and all of those things, but you didn't conceptualize that that was being a good citizen. And the whole idea of a citizen soldier, which is really the foundation of Norwich, and absolutely carried that all the way through. That is part of being in the military. It's who you are and so raised our kids that way. We're both that way. I just think it's part of yeah, you know. And it becomes ingrained in you like that's how you believe and want to live your life. It's part of you know, it's part of what's important and in fact I think somewhere in the museum there's a beautiful plaque and it—I took a picture of it when I was up there. But that's what it was, you know, to be able to serve that's what it is. That's what service means being in the service. SY: And did you, I wonder if you feel like your job now is similar in terms of service, do you feel that way? LW: Oh yeah, I look at my job actually as a paid volunteer job. So even when I wasn't working, and that's how I actually had to convince them to take me in my interviews because I hadn't worked for a number of years and breaking back into the work force. But I said, I haven't been sitting at home, this is what I've done which was everything from I mean, involved in a lot of fundraising and different things. And so yes this is, this is something I would do even if they weren't paying me. So yeah, it's that kind of work and I'm fortunate to be able to do it you know. SY: Yeah, absolutely. LW: Yeah. SY: So any last thoughts? LW: No, I'm just, you know, every year when I go up I'm happy to see more women in the Corps of Cadets. And I'm happy to see, you know, that they've had a regimental commander. Like women to me appear very blended in. I always love watching them in the parade and I try to catch up with them when I'm there and just say, "How is, what's going on, what's it like, what's it like for you?" They're always shocked when I tell them [laughs] I'm in the first class of women, you know, and they have a lot of questions. They're curious, really curious about that. And I always look for the girls with the white name tags, 'cause I know they're freshmen, you know at least the Rooks. If I go up for like an Alumni Weekend just to check in they're like "really" 'cause I think it's in the Rook Book or something, I don't know. SY: I wonder if when we do this exhibit if we should have an event which is an opportunity for women in the Corps now to talk to previous women in the Corps. LW: Oh yeah, that would be great. SY: That would be great. I think, I think I'm gonna suggest this to my boss tomorrow, 'cause I think that would be fabulous 'cause I think there's probably a real hunger to talk about it and have a sense of how things have changed and how they're the same and… LW: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, there's a lot of people out there that you know I think Norwich is truly I mean my first job out of the military I got through a Norwich connection. It's just the way the college is and I think the more anyway you can connect. And I think even women going into business out of there or into education or into nursing or into engineering there's alum that have gone before them that are willing to, you know, to help them out so yeah that would be kind of fun. SY: Yeah that would be great. LW: Kind of fun, yeah, SY: That would be, that would be exciting I think. Okay cool, I'm gonna press stop but…