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Title from caption. ; Index to U.S. government periodicals ; Mode of access: Internet. ; Vol. 10, no. 3-4 bound under title: NASA report to educators in OSUL.

A Montana Public Radio Commentary by Evan Barrett. Published newspaper columns written by Evan Barrett on this topic, which vary somewhat in content from this commentary, appeared in the following publication: Montana Standard, February 26, 2014 Missoulian, February 20, 2014

Educating for democracy has long been established as a central purpose for schooling in America and continues to be included in the ongoing discourses on educational policy and programs. While educating for democracy has been defined in many ways, it is commonly agreed that it is the knowledge, skills, and experiences that members of a democracy should possess in order to be contributing citizens of a global society. Nested within the context of democratic education, inclusion as advocated by Iris Marion Young provided the framework for this study. Young suggested that inclusive democracy enables the participation and voice for all those affected by problems and their proposed solutions. Within the context of education, democratic inclusive education is established for the purpose of creating learning environments in which multiple perspectives are included in the community building and decision-making efforts of the classroom. This study explored the perceptions and experiences of three elementary teachers that incorporated aspects of democratic inclusion into their teaching practice.

Part six of an interview with educators in the Leominster, Massachusetts area. Topics include: How family time and family activities have changed over time. How families stressed and supported education. ; 1 SPEAKER 1: … was a decision that had to be made. And I'm glad that my mother – my father too, but my mother especially – was so determined that I was going to have an education regardless of where we were, that no obstacle would be insurmountable. And it was decided that, yes, I would not work. I would go to school. And only after I had become settled, I would have a part-time job, which I did working at [unintelligible - 00:00:39] markets after school. But the idea was that education was paramount. I know that one of my sisters started higher education in Italy. She went to… at that time, the school was run by sisters in a town called Alba in Piedmont. And the time came when the sisters, the good sisters said, "The situation here in Italy is such that we cannot guarantee her safety, so we're sending her home." And that was the end of her education. But, my sister too did well. She was able to continue on her own. And, she got to be a chemist to a major paint manufacturer in Europe. And right now, we envy her for her pension. She has one of the best pensions of anybody. And that kind of money she can keep for her son, who is about 45 now, in some luxuries which many Italians cannot afford. But education has always been the kind of thing to strive for, even if it means that you have to… going to debt for, and, if you have to forgo immediate gains for long-term results. In a way, I'm glad that my family decided to do that, that kind of thing for me. And in another way, would I be happier to sit down and not have all these talks about world concerns in my mind? Would I be happier if I would sit in front of a television, sit and relax, have a beer? SPEAKER 2: [Laughter]. SPEAKER 1: I don't know. I don't know. I think once you open the door and see what's there, it's very difficult to shut and say, "Wow, I'm going to be 2 oblivious to this, oblivious to that. Let them solve their own problems. I got mine. That's enough to keep me thinking." But… SPEAKER 3: [Unintelligible - 00:02:59]. SPEAKER 4: He makes a very good point. Today, over and over and over, we keep hearing about wars and stuff. Remember when we were kids you had one radio and once a day, everybody sat down and listened to what's happening in [unintelligible - 00:03:17] or what was happening in [unintelligible -- 00:03:19], and… SPEAKER 2: And no pictures. SPEAKER 4: No pictures. Once a day… and you listen to the results of the election at 1 o'clock in the morning. You're sitting next to the radio, but that was family. Something that you did together, everybody did together. Everybody sat around and listened. Not anymore. SPEAKER 2: Nope. We used to have all the… like [unintelligible - 00:03:39] radio theater was one. And it would literally be a movie that they were speaking of… SPEAKER 4: Oh, sure. SPEAKER 2: … through on the radio. And then, the others were all comedy programs. SPEAKER 4: Do you remember Sunday nights? SPEAKER 2: Boy, I'm hoping all the rest of the… SPEAKER 4: [Unintelligible - 00:04:01] baby sitcoms and "The Shadow"? SPEAKER 1: The Shadow. SPEAKER 2: I remember being in a class at Fitchburg State. I've forgotten what. Just some psychology class. And I was the only one in the room, including the instructor that know what life was like without TV. [Laughs] And so, you know, you are ancient in a lot of ways. They couldn't believe that you could live without TV. SPEAKER 4: [Joe Serafini] was the first Italian family in our neighborhood to have a TV. We would go watch wrestling and Howdy Doody. SPEAKER 2: Howdy Doody. [Laughs]3 SPEAKER 3: How big a screen? SPEAKER 1: Probably 8 inches. [Laughs] Probably 8 inches. SPEAKER 4: Oh, yeah. And his father owned a business so they were big time. SPEAKER 3: Can others of you give me examples how your family stressed education? Stressed that you should go on to school and not quit and get a job? SPEAKER 4: Oh, mine you know, is similar to Vincent's experience. My mother and father, as was very common at that time… whatever education my mother got, she got when she was here in Everett. When she went to Italy, I don't believe that she ended up in school. And my father would've probably gone to third grade. That was very common. The elementary schools that you know, Vinnie referred to, which they call [unintelligible - 00:05:47] I'm sure was pretty much the same throughout Italy because they were all government run, provided education through grade 5 although a lot of people did not make it through grade 5. After that, if you should get to secondary school, you have to show that you have some intellectual talents or your parents had money. There were examinations depending on the kind of school that you were going to. So universal education, as we think of it, was available through grade 5. That's if your parents wanted you to attend, because there were a lot of kids who did not, because their parents wanted them to tend the sheep in the fields or you know, help out at home. I don't recall… I was young, but I don't recall you know, children [unintelligible - 00:06:40] where anybody would come in to the house and say, "How come, you know, Pelino is not in school today? We know he's 6 years old. How come he's not registered for school?" There just wasn't that kind of follow through that, you know, that I could see. So you went to school because your parents wanted you to go to school. 4 And, you know, Vinnie is correct. Times were difficult. My father did not serve in the army. He was not physically able to, but he did end up in a German work camp. After Italy changed sides and joined the allies in 1943, then all of a sudden all the German troops that were in Italy were now in occupied territory. They were no longer in the territory of an ally. So a lot of the able bodied men were taken you know, to help with the German war effort. Then he mentioned Albania. That's where my father was taken to work camp. He escaped you know, came home. I had an uncle who was in the military. My father had served in the military in the 1930s, but then when he wanted to join back up you know, for the Second World War, he was not physically able to. But my uncle served in a British prisoner-of-war camp in Africa. He was captured at the very outset of the war and spent the whole time there. So, his family, my aunt and her two kids, you know, who lived in the same house with us, were very dependent as Joe said on you know, family, you know, helping each other. I mean, that's what you needed to do to you know, to survive. But from the time that the war ended, I was in school. My parents demanded that I go to school. After school, I did what everybody else did. We had a dozen sheep or so. And one of my older cousins who was out of school, you know, he's completed the fifth grade and was…/AT/mb

Part four of an interview with educators in the Leominster, Massachusetts area. Topics include: Joeseph DeCarolis, a school principal in Leominster and other locations, introduces himself. Vincent DiNino, a teacher in Leominster, introduces himself. Why their families settled in Leominster. How immigrants learned English. What Leominster was like. Memories of early education. Social clubs for Italian Americans. Bilingual education and preserving cultural heritage. ; 1 SPEAKER 1: Actually, I think he already gave that anyway, especially during – we'll get back to you… SPEAKER 2: Sure. SPEAKER 1: Because you were actually born in Italy. SPEAKER 2: Yes. SPEAKER 1: And that's important. JOE: I'm Joe DeCarolis. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. JOE: I was born in Pittsfield, Mass. All four of my grandparents came from Italy. Uh, my mother's folks came from Calabria and my grandparents in Leominster, I'm not quite sure. I should know that. Uh, principal in Leominster for 25 years, I was principal in other places, for a total of 31 years; uh, and in the local schools, Lincoln School, Leominster Junior High School, uh, Leominster High School, Fitchburg State College, University of Mass., University of New Hampshire. I was all over the place. Uh, I live in Leominster now. I did… uh, I traveled [a little] also with my family, came back to Leominster. I've four children living, grandchildren, out here in Leominster, attending Leominster schools. We have a business − an insurance business. My parents would have been very proud of their grandson, but unfortunately they're gone to the great beyond. But, uh, I look forward to the future of Leominster where our kids are in the public education right now. SPEAKER 2: He was also all over the football field. (FEMALE VOICE) GROUP: [Laughter] SPEAKER 2: He was a football player… SPEAKER 1: Were you ever a coach? JOE: Yes, I coached. I played and, uh, I help now with my grandson playing the [unintelligible - 00:01:24] and my son coaching the Leominster High School offensive line so we're still involved in it, in that activity. I belong to most clubs in town − the Sons of Italy, the Elks, the Knights of 2 Columbus, Board of Directors of the Leominster Credit Union and other activities. Leominster Country Club, where I play a lot of golf; and my sons and my grandson also do that. VINCENT: My name is Vincent DiNino, and I was born in Corfinio, Italy in 1940. I came to the United States when I was 16. I remember my boat's trip. The boats – the boat I came over was the uh, Christopher Columbus − and the sister ship of that boat was the Andrea Doria, which met, uh, an early uh, fate, sinking; and I always thought it could have been the, uh, Christopher Columbus that would be sunken instead of the Andrea Doria, and now where would I be? So I've always been thankful that I did reach the shores of the United States. And to give a brief perspective, I never really intended to come stateside because when I started schools in Italy, in the middle schools, they ask you what kind of career you intend to take and the choice was you could take foreign language to match the kind of career that you wanted. And for most intents and purposes, you cannot take German because Germany was defeated. Yes, you could take Italian. You should take Italian because that was your country. And French or English were the foreign languages that were recommended. Now, if you did not intend to go to Australia or Canada or the United States, you should take French, because French was the international language of trade and commerce, industry. And that's what I did. I took French in middle school, not knowing that later on, about three years later, we would be coming stateside and I would come to Leominster, Massachusetts, not knowing a word of English − but knowing French quite well, Italian, of course, and having some Latin. So when I started school at first at the junior high and then at the high school, I was fortunate enough to be able to take foreign languages − but not to learn the foreign languages, to do reverse engineering and learn English. So I took Italian. I took French. I took Latin. Of course, I already knew the languages insofar as they were being taught in those grades; but I would learn the vocabulary and the 3 structure that pertained to English. So that's how I got through high school and I was able to get to college. And I went to college in Worcester − first Assumption and then Clark. I did get a degree in Education. And I had a good background in Electronics. The Dean of Students at Clark was so impressed with my thesis that he said, "I've just been given a post to be President at Leicester Junior College. Would you join me and set up a language lab there?" "Oh," I said, "Fine." Beautiful first job − and it had some perks, like resident at a very subsidized rate, so it fit me perfectly. And I stayed with Leicester Junior College until Becker Junior College bought it out in1970. Then as I had been teaching foreign languages and one of those languages was Spanish, I saw that there was a need for bilingual education in the area and I applied to the Leominster public school system, which apparently saw me as a good candidate and I worked in the Leominster school system for 10 years, until my parents were both diagnosed with cancer. And I decided that at that time, since I was the only child stateside − I have two sisters in Italy, but far away when there is a sudden illness or a big problem. So I said, "Well, I'll take a couple of years leave of absence and see if I… if I can help." And of course, the school system was kind enough to allow me to do that. And while I took care of my parents, who were getting weaker and weaker, I also started to do a electronics repair business in my garage, a relatively large garage in which we didn't park cars anymore, but we had TVs and VCRs and all kinds of electronic stuff that I always liked to tinker with. So it seemed to be okay. And at this time too, one of my close relatives, my aunt, had a stroke and couldn't live by herself so we took her in. And I was also taking care of her while doing the electronics business. And when the time came to decide whether I should be back for the schools or continue with my business, I decided that probably at that time I wanted to see what's running your own business look like. And I started electronic equipment repair, which I'm still running, in spite of the 4 fact that the electronics business has met with great competition from overseas, especially Southeast Asia. And most consumer products are very inexpensive to purchase and are disposable. But we do some products which are not disposable, in the thousands of dollars cost area – like projection TV sets, which are still relatively good insofar as business profit. SPEAKER 1: Okay, thank you. I was wondering if each of you could tell me, why Leominster? Why did your family settle here? SPEAKER 2: Why did my family…? SPEAKER 1: [Unintelligible – 00:08:38]… settled here. First of all, I have to say, it's a lot of people to keep track of. So even though you may have said something at the beginning − for example, you may have said [unintelligible – 00:08:48] in Leominster, I just… sorry about that if I'm asking you a question that maybe you answered a little bit. SPEAKER 2: Okay. SPEAKER 1: But I really want to know, why is it that your particular family settled in Fitchburg or Leominster? Did they follow another relative or was it because of work or…? SPEAKER 2: I wish I knew all of that. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. SPEAKER 2: My paternal grandparents were in Leominster. And my maternal grandparents were in Boston. But when people were coming here from Italy, my grandmother… I don't know what you would call her in this day and age. But she was the one that people went to, for some reason. And I don't know whether she had been established, maybe, for a few years − and most of the people that came from a [unintelligible - 00:09:50] settled in Leominster, on Lincoln Terrace. And that's the first house that I remember my grandparents being in. When my parents were married, they moved to Leominster. I guess it was the woman's place to move to wherever her husband was. And both my grandfather and my dad were 5 employed at Dupont. And then my dad went on… I think in 1937, was the first detective police officer in Leominster, part-time for two years. And then in 1939 was promoted to a full-time position. They had to pass the Civil Service Test and all that went with it. SPEAKER 1: Italian Citizens Club helped him with that? SPEAKER 2: I remember him studying for it as a child, even – though I'm not certain of that. But I do know he belonged to Italian social clubs − the Salvini Club up on Lincoln Terrace; going to the Elks and the Knights, and all of those things. I really can't speak to that. I was too young; I was only maybe five years old. PELINO: Because my family was kind of mixed, in that my father's family were all in Corfinio, Italy. On my mother's side, her parents came to the United States in the early 1900s and settled around Everett, Massachusetts. And my grandmother had her six children all born in Everett. My mother was one of them. But then after the first World War, my grandmother went back to Italy, went back to Corfinio, with all of her children; taking all of them with her, primarily to take care of her father, who was alone at the time. He was… so she went back to the family homestead, so to speak, in Corfinio. And that's where my mother and her brother and sisters, you know, grew up. At the time that they went back to Italy, they were – some of them six years old, eight years old, in that range. And my mother grew up and got married. Met my father and got married in late 1930s in Corfinio. And then after the war, we came to the United States. That was in 1949. And we went to Cokeburg, Pennsylvania. My mother had a great uncle who lived in Cokeburg and he had a small business. He had a bar room and a restaurant, you know, combination. Coal mining was the way that people make their living in that area unless you own some small business or perhaps you own land and farmed. So my father went to work in a coal mine. At that time, the mines went on strike. They were out for three to six months. It was a very difficult time. And my great uncle suggested to my parents that we should come to Leominster. We had 6 other relatives here. My grandmother had a brother living here in Leominster. And one of my mother's sisters − my aunt, who came in 1949 − settled here in Leominster. So he suggested that for the betterment of the family, for greater opportunity, we should move to Leominster, which we did, in 1950; and the family's been here ever since. That's how we came in to settle in Leominster. That was all on my mother's side. My father's family is still all in Italy. SPEAKER 1: Now in 1950, how old were you? PELINO: At that time I was 11 years old. I came in 1949; I was nine. I came early; I believe it was February 1 when we landed. I can't remember the name of the ship, but they were sister ships, I remember that. One was the Vulcania, and the other was the Saturnia. And I believe I came on the Vulcania; that was quite a trip − have a lot of fond memories about it, my first cruise [laughter]. JOE: Was it in the winter or the summertime…? PELINO: It was winter. SPEAKER 2: Sure. I'm real curious to know where – which port you came in to. Was it Boston or was it…? PELINO: New York. SPEAKER 2: Okay. JOE: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER 2: See, that's the thing. I don't know where my grandparents came in… PELINO: Oh, I can remember the ship going to Canada and making a stop and letting some people off in Canada, because that was another, you know, port of entry. But then it did go down to New York and that's where we landed. JOE: Pelino went to Pennsylvania. They couldn't pronounce his name so they called him Paul [unintelligible - 00:15:04]. So when he came to Leominster, he said it was Paul [unintelligible - 00:15:07].7 PELINO: That's true. That's true. My uncle changed my name to Paul Marshall. I have report cards… I had report cards with that name. But coming to Leominster and registering here, I went back to my given name. SPEAKER 1: Now why did he suggest that? PELINO: That was a funny story. I never knew until in the mid-50s, he came to visit, you know, the family here. And particularly, his brother that I mentioned, lived in Leominster. And I asked him. I said, "Uncle Frank, how come you changed my name?" And he said, "Well, you know, this is, you know, the land of opportunity. You could be almost anything you want to be. And someday you could grow up and be a lawyer, or you could be a doctor or whatever, and you're going to have your name on the door. And people are going to come by and see that long name, they're going to be afraid to pronounce it and they're not going to come in." [Laughter] That was his answer. I said, "How come you never changed yours? And he wouldn't answer that question [laughter]. But he was a wonderful man. He married − around 1935 – he married a lady from Yugoslavia. And the small town of Cokeburg had a number of ethnic groups, Serbians, Croatians, all regions of what we know as Yugoslavia; Polish, Russian, Italians, of course. And they all had their social clubs, you know, just like we found here in Leominster. But they all congregated − and my uncle's one of them – in a bar room, particularly on Friday nights, which was payday. So you heard all kinds of… all kinds of languages. And my aunt, Pauline, actually spoke − not only English and Italian, which she spoke much better than I ever did − but also a little bit of Russian, Polish, you name it. And she picked it up, you know, from working in the restaurant, in the bar room. And one of my best friends was a Croatian. His name was Sam. And I don't think I ever had anybody in my life that I was closest to and who influenced me more as a friend than Sam. And I only knew him for about a year and a half. SPEAKER 1: The bar room was in Pennsylvania then, not Leominster.8 PELINO: Yes, right. He was in Pennsylvania. And like I said, it was one of, you know, a number of ethnic little clubs. SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm. JOE: [Unintelligible - 00:17:54]. My four grandparents came for family. They wanted a new life. My mother's family went to New York − to Rome, New York. Rome is a very highly populated Italian population. And then they migrated to Pittsfield, Mass.; GE was flourishing… Actually they were in the grocery business; Italian imported and [unintelligible - 00:18:23] goods. My father's family in Leominster migrated to Leominster because of family and got involved with plastics; DuPont's – my father later started his own factory. When I went in the Army and I came out thinking I was going to be a millionaire because I was going to take over this plastics factory, but he sold it to buy a bar. Then my grandfather was out of work and he wanted to put him to work, so he bought a bar and he worked the days and my father worked the nights. But we spent most of our lives in Leominster. I call Leominster home even though I was born in Pittsfield, grew up across [unintelligible - 00:19:10]. My father's a cop would watch over us at downtown and give me a good [unintelligible - 00:19:15] go home and [unintelligible - 00:19:17]. Because if he would have crossed the street and said [unintelligible - 00:19:19] and Dominic, I [unintelligible - 00:19:21] around downtown, they took care of that. Going to the public schools as a young Italian kid in the beginning was a little difficult, you know. And the good thing was that the area, Leominster in those days was set up in ethnic sections − the Italian section, the Irish section, the Protestant section. So you were comfortable in that way, okay. Eventually, we started to play ball against the other sections of town and that broke the ice, and you made friends with the kids from different sectors, the Irish section; and intermarriage started to happen. And all of my brothers and I married outside the Italian culture, maybe…9 SPEAKER 2: That was a no-no. That was a big no-no. JOE: It was a big no-no. You didn't marry outside your culture in those days. That just didn't happen. But as I say, as things went on and we played ball together. We went to school together. We went to college together. That kind of broke that ice and people intermarried. I say we had a bar – we were given the opportunity. We made the opportunity to start our own businesses, okay? My brother went into a very successful semiconductor business. Now the industry is on 128; it's huge… major, major. He retired young, okay. My son owns four agencies − insurance agencies − in town. He started one and bought three. So opportunity was there if you wanted to take it and there was a tremendous desire on the part of all the people that I knew − my best friends all wanted to either be in business, or be in education. We had some tremendous people who were Italian. I can think of Christine [unintelligible - 00:21:13] was my first Italian teacher that I had in Lincoln School. I had her for two years in a row. We went fourth and fifth grade in the same room and then we went… SPEAKER 2: She was the second Italian teacher in Leominster. There's Mary McCall and Christine [unintelligible - 00:21:27]. JOE: I didn't realize that. Then she became Mrs. Mcgrall; she married [unintelligible - 00:21:31]. JOE: That's right. JOE: And he had a business, Mr. Mcgrall. SPEAKER 2: Yes. JOE: But I became… and she took a liking to me and I would run all her errands, go down to the store, buy her lunch and that kind of stuff; but it got me kind of enthused towards education. And I liked the aspect of working with kids and doing things that I liked people doing for me. So while I got out – actually, when I got out… I went to school; all my friends were joining the Army. So I got out of school, went home, told my mother that, "Mom, I'm going into the Army." I was getting ready for the 10 football season. She almost passed out. But when I got out, I got married. And I had a new aspect, a new view on life; so I worked – I went to school 8:00 in the morning with Pelino. We went together and I would go to [unintelligible - 00:22:28] at 3:00 and work to 11:00. And I did this for four years; I had two children. And my wife is Irish and [Swedish] and she could cook good Italian [unintelligible - 00:22:40]. SPEAKER 2: Did you speak English when you started school? JOE: Yes, yes. I figure a little Italian… in fact, the good thing for the parents in those days, that they could speak Italian and say things and you didn't know, so that the – and that was common in all families. [Laughter] My friends, most of my friends, don't speak Italian, and that's sad. I did take Italian when we were [unintelligible - 00:22:59] high school, three years of Italian. I'm not sure I learned a lot for long. I did plenty to get by, got good marks and so forth, but don't think that I recall [unintelligible - 00:23:10] but I don't know [unintelligible - 00:23:11]. And I'm very sad about that. SPEAKER 3: It's a matter of not using it, you know. (FEMALE VOICE) JOE: Exactly. SPEAKER 3: And I went… I took lessons from Vinny. JOE: I'm very jealous of people who… You did, huh? SPEAKER 3: Yes, I did. JOE: [Unintelligible - 00:23:23] night school, right? SPEAKER 3: When my mother was here we get [unintelligible - 00:23:27]. Yeah, we had a great time. JOE: I'm very sad about that. I never used it and then never kept it, you know. It was like Geometry, if you didn't use it, you lost it. And that's true today. And I wish I could have passed it on to my four children and my grandchildren, you know, and I can't do that. SPEAKER 3: I agree. JOE: And none of them speak a second language, which just too bad.11 SPEAKER 4: It's amazing. Do you mind my breaking in? (FEMALE VOICE) JOE: No. SPEAKER 4: I knew you loved it. I hate [unintelligible - 00:23:52]. [Laughter] [PELINO]: You know her well, don't you? SPEAKER 4: Maybe 12 years difference in age, right, between Joe and me? And yet, when I went to school and all of my friends didn't speak English − so within 10 years, he's going to school now… JOE: That's true [unintelligible - 00:24:11]. That's true. But you know, I can remember − I think Jeannie talked about it [unintelligible - 00:24:17]. Leominster had about five, maybe more, Italian clubs. The Calabrese, the [unintelligible - 00:24:24] and my dad belonged to a couple, as you said yours did. And every Sunday, off we would go with my father to the club and they would play cards, and they would drink wine. And my father would come home with a homemade bottle of wine; it was like somebody gave him a thousand dollars. He had a homemade bottle of wine and it bought – that was his, okay. But that's – and the people that I met in those days, the kids are still my best friends today. It was ties; there were ties, neighborhood ties and club ties − and they never got broken. PELINO: No, I had Mrs. Mcgrall too. She was my first teacher when we moved to Leominster. And I got a little Mrs. Mcgrall story. First day, I got there, registered. He said to me now, "Now, Pelino, school starts at quarter past eight." I said, "Yes, Mrs. Mcgrall." And we don't live too far away, [unintelligible - 00:25:24] right around the corner from Lincoln School. And so that first morning, I showed up about 8:23 and she called me inside and said, "Pelino, you're late." I said, "Really?" She said, "Yes, school starts at quarter past eight." I said, "Okay, Mrs. Mcgrall, I'll be here." The next morning I showed up about 8:20. She pulled me aside again. "Pelino, you're late." "Mrs. Mcgrall, I promise, I'll be here on time." The third morning, I got there about 8:17 and she said, "Pelino, I 12 don't know what to do with you. I talked to you twice already. School starts at 8:15." And the minute she said 8:15, the light dawned on me. To me, quarter was 25, because I first learned 25 cents. You learn money first, right Vinny? [Laughter] So up until that moment, I didn't make the connection that quarter, you know, quarter of an hour was 15 minutes. I thought I was in plenty of time. I don't know why she's [unintelligible - 00:26:28] every morning. [Laughter] But it was a funny experience; but we're a Southeast school and we have the bilingual program. You know the—Vinny remembers—that was one of the things that I – having learned that. You're a little bit more sensitive to other ethnic groups, okay, and their particular cultural backgrounds, so that you're not quick to judge them based on your standards. That was a lesson for me; and another lesson was always talking to the kids and having them look at me. And if they didn't, you know, my finger would go under their chin, you know, I'm talking to you, you know, look at me. Until one of the bilingual teachers explained to me that in their culture, that's disrespectful to look at the adults' eyes when they're talking to you. And it – you know, something entirely different from what I was used to. I was looking for respect from the youngster by having the youngster look at me, and I was asking him to do something that was disrespectful to his culture. And it's one of the things that was not very helpful, you know, years later in helping the classroom teachers and others adjust to different ethnic groups. JOE: You asked a while ago if I spoke Italian or took Italian. I started the first bilingual program when [unintelligible - 00:27:57] down the Southeast school in 1972. PELINO: Seventy-two, 72. JOE: Okay. But when I was going to school, it was the desire of an Italian family to have their kids speak English; no bilingual education, okay? And it annoys me today that we are still having people fight to save their culture. Oh, I want to save the Italian culture. And I think the Irish people should have their culture. But I also feel that you've got to give in to the 13 flow of civilization and what's happening. And we had to speak English, okay? We had to go to school. Now, if I may put it crudely, if I felt lousy, you know, my mother would say, "Go to the bathroom and go to school." That was it. You went to school, okay? Today, if there is a little headache or a big test or something, the kids don't come to school. If it rains, lots of kids don't come to the school. That's the advantage I think we had over today's youth, okay? I have to tell my own children, you get those kids to school. That's your main job, you know. They cry about getting sick, you always can go get them out; you [unintelligible - 00:29:09]. SPEAKER 1: So what's the intent of bilingual education, initially? JOE: It's to teach kids English, but written in to the law was the fact that they had to have so many hours of their culture each day, okay? We didn't have that. The culture was… is the one that you decided to live in, okay? We decided to live in Leominster, in United States of America, who spoke English, okay, and you were going to speak English, okay. I said the only advantage of Italian in my family is my parents can speak and talk about us and we didn't know it. SPEAKER 3: They all do. JOE: I guess it's coming back now, because they're going to change that [battle] of the law but it took 28, 29 years, okay? SPEAKER 1: So was the intent to keep it for a short period of time? JOE: I think so. SPEAKER 1: And then to grow out of it, so to speak? [PELINO]: [Unintelligible - 00:30:05] maximum of three years. SPEAKER 3: Three years, I thought. JOE: Three years? VINCENT: The program was conditional… JOE: Right, right. VINCENT: Bilingual education, so I guess the first thing is that you have to allow for a transition. And sometimes in transition they take one, two, three years, 14 and sometimes it may take a lifetime. Of course, everything has got to be within certain limits, because money is involved, because people's feelings are involved. And you kind of strike a balance between what some people want and what the necessities of the system dictate, I think. SPEAKER 4: The other thing too is that I think it's shifted from being primarily Spanish-type bilingual education. And then we had this whole influx of Asians come in and how were we adapting to that − that was a big transition. And I don't know what role bilingual education played for them. JOE: But there wasn't such a thing, though, as bilingual education. SPEAKER 3: Not when we went to school. JOE: When the Italian who came from Italy… SPEAKER 4: That's right. JOE: Or the Italian kid grew up in an Italian household where the parents spoke Italian, there were no such thing as bilingual education. You go to school; you learn how to speak English. And that was it. SPEAKER 1: Is it possible that the other ethnic groups now coming in have assimilated more quickly because they don't have bilingual education [unintelligible - 00:31:36] Spanish? JOE: I hope so. The only answer I can give you is, I hope so; because they're going find out their success is going to come quicker. PELINO: Okay, I think that Vinny said it well, what he said [unintelligible - 00:31:48] was transitional bilingual education. And there is a transition that needs to take place. In my own experience, while I very quickly picked up, let's say, the street language, I was able to converse, you know, very quickly, inside of three, four months. Part of that was the fact that I spent my first summer with one of my great aunts in Michigan City, Indiana. And she had a nephew that came to visit that summer, who was also nine years old; you know, my age. She didn't speak any Italian. Her nephew did not. My uncle had his own business selling Italian grocery products and did a lot of traveling, so I spent the whole day with her and 15 her nephew Floyd; go to the beach every day, every couple of weeks. We saved up enough money from cashing in bottles and cans. She would take us to Chicago, and, you know, go to a museum. I remember the stockyards; huge, huge. I couldn't believe how big the stockyards were at the time. So I assimilated the English language quickly, but only in terms of being able to speak in everyday terms, okay. School was a different matter. And I think this is partly what, you know, Vinny is speaking about in that I had to − similar to what he… he used his other foreign languages to translate into English − okay, I was doing the same thing in Italian. It wasn't until the 7th Grade, in junior high school, that I was finally able to read a Science or Mathematics problem in English and think in English. Prior to that time, I read it in English. If Jean was my teacher, I could read that book, just like I can read Latin; doesn't mean I understand it but I can read it. I can pronounce, okay. The fact was that it wasn't until then that I was actually doing my thinking in English. Prior to that, my thought process was in Italian and it was slower; because I had to read it in English or hear what the person was saying in English, translate it internally into Italian, get the answer or get the understanding, and then send it back out in English. One of the differences, as Jean mentioned, some of the other ethnic groups is that they have an advantage in that they're smaller in numbers, okay. They also come with, perhaps, some different priorities. And the… most people in the area associate bilingual education with Hispanics. But that's only because that particular language group is here. If you go in to Boston, Vinny would tell you they probably have a couple dozen of bilingual programs in all kinds of languages, okay, because they have the population that required that and the program that was needed to support that population. There is a need for a transition. I know of family members, I know of others who came and, you know, you were drawn into school, sink or swim, immersion. That's the term they use, immersion, okay. And I was able to survive that; but there are others that did not. I 16 think if we think back into our own families and we go back and think long enough, we'll find a number of people who, because of that immersion − because perhaps the support wasn't there at home to say that education is a priority for you, I want you to succeed, that's your future.− it became easier sometimes because of family need or whatever, everybody else, they drop out of school and go to work to help support the family. And there was a lot of that that happened. If anything, the transitional bilingual education program helps to keep kids in school. We don't gain anything. The individual doesn't gain. The family doesn't gain. Society doesn't gain when anybody drops out of school. I mean we [unintelligible - 00:36:07] you that. Nobody gains by that experience. And I think that anything we can do to keep kids in school, you know, for the full term is going to pay dividends. And if bilingual education, you know, comes with a cost, − yes it does; and it should be transitional − but as Vinny said, you know, some people can do it in one year and we used to get kids out of the program in a year; some took two, most took three. We had very few that stayed beyond the four year – the three years. As a matter of fact, it was school committee policy; as Assistant Superintendent, I would have to present the case to the school committee and ask them to allow, upon recommendation of the Bilingual Director and the teachers and the principal, to allow youngsters to stay in their program for longer than three years. And I never made any request more than three or four or five in any given year, out of over a hundred, 120, 130 kids in the bilingual program. So you know there has to be a balance. Yes, I understand, you know… where Joe and others are coming from. I have the same feelings. You fear as an individual, you need to make an effort to assimilate into the society. I mean that's why you're here. SPEAKER 2: [Unintelligible - 00:37:20]. JOE: But you need to keep your own culture too. I'm sorry, the same way that you are that my kids don't speak Italian. That's my fault.17 SPEAKER 2: Yes, yes. They're with more pressure. VINCENT(?): [Unintelligible - 00:37:31] okay. JOE: Now my grandparents [unintelligible - 00:37:36]. Okay, because and you ask, why did they come to Leominster, why did they come to Pittsfield? Because family was there! There wasn't such a thing as aid welfare, okay. Families took care of families; so it was important that they learned quickly so they can go out and work, can make their money and get their own apartment. There were very few Italian people those days owned their own home, you know; families – if you lost your job, you moved in with a sister or brother, with your family, and you'd share. So the need to learn was much quicker then. Today, you sign up, you get welfare, you get relief. And for some that's very important, I understand that, okay? But we also have maybe taken away incentive for some of these people. We make it too easy for some. VINCENT: You know, it's very interesting to notice that these problems that the United States have been experiencing for maybe the past 20 or 30 years are now occurring all over the world. I mentioned that my niece was visiting from Italy just this summer and it was tied to all the terrorist happenings. So she was able to visit many areas in the United States very freely, without hindrance, which would probably not be the case now. But talking to her, she would mention that even in Italy, there are a lot of immigrants; Albania, for instance, from North Africa. And these are people that say we know our rights. They pitch their tent in the public square and they're expecting the municipal services to provide for them. And of course, one of the complaints was that you couldn't hear the church bells because they had their loudspeakers announcing the Muslim rituals of prayer every so many hours. And there too, you have a clash of cultures. Of course, they wouldn't come to Italy if they weren't looking for a little better life than what they had where they left. And what are you going to do with them? You have to take care of the children, make sure they go to school, make sure that you could teach them in whatever 18 language they're using. Now I'm sure that the resources are smaller in a country like Italy. They're not the same as the resources that are available in a country like United States − and yet the problem is there. And if you don't want to have problems like they have in the Balkan countries or in the Middle East, you have to try to accommodate these different cultures the best way you can. And I think education, although it will not solve all the problems, if you can keep the kids in school and if the kids can get along with other kids, Albanian, Italian, from Morocco, from Algeria, from Tunis, whatever, then maybe you wouldn't have a kind of topsy-turvy world that we're presented with or that we have to cope with. So this idea of education, in a narrow sense, yes, it's important to a certain ethnic cultural entity. But in a larger sense, the world is very small now. Email goes everywhere. CNN and all the public media present you with pictures that you can't turn off. And maybe we don't have the skills just yet to cope with this kind of change, but we have to use what we have and do the best we can. And I think that maybe education is the place to start. You got to figure out what do those people need. Well, they need a job and they need to make money. And they need to have a sense of self-worth. If you tell them that, you know, that in your country, new laws apply; they should go to church, not to a mosque. Well, then you start to challenge them at their very core and you started to develop resentment. And you can't do that anymore, because even though you may have the might, there are people that if you put them or their shoulder against the wall, just like an animal which can't escape, they'll do anything that may destroy themselves in the process but will harm you; and at all cost, you want to avoid that. So that's the way I see education as a central issue for the world. It may not solve all the problems, but it sure is a good start. SPEAKER 5: It's a common denominator. In the same way that Joe talked about breaking down some of the barriers between the state of French and the Italians. There were sports, okay. The minute they started to integrate to athletics and then you made friends, you know, from the different ethnic 19 groups and that started to break down the barriers. And in the larger sense, education I think, you know, serves in the same way. We have much more common in this world than we have differences. And maybe Vincent is right. We just don't have the skills yet, perhaps, and the knowledge not to recognize that or deal with it. SPEAKER 1: But it also seems to be a logistical nightmare and financially impossible to offer bilingual education to all ethnic groups, so where do we go from here? PELINO: Well, those are the limitations. SPEAKER 5: It boils down to people who are called legislators, telling us what to do because it is popular with some people, okay. Educators don't go into factories and tell people how to run the electronics factory, okay? Bilingual education and all the laws that are coming out now are made by people who really don't know about education. MCast, I don't think educators are quote against MCast as such but they're against the fact that people are making the rules for MCast and they really don't know what they're looking for, okay. And that's what's happening and that's what's turning people off about education. Educate – legislators, they've got their fingers into education, much too much, and should leave it to the people who are trained to do it. PELINO: But the legislators are the ones that provide the resources. VINCENT: Unfortunate. PELINO: You know I can think of so many things, I'm sure all of us, the hundred plus billion dollars, billion dollars that we spent fighting the Gulf War − and that was a very brief period of time − I don't know who's going to tally up how much you know disengagement is going to cost. But there's a cost. And what happens is that the need is felt to be so immediate, whether it's a threat or whatever, that all kinds of resources and money go into it without really balancing isn't worth it. And I'm not saying it's not, okay. But we seem to respond to those kinds of crisis in an immediate way with all kinds of resources and yet when you look at education, when 20 you look at some of the other health, you know, human needs that people have, we don't see those problems with the same kind of immediacy…/AT/jf/mjv/mm

Part five of of an interview with educators in the Leominster, Massachusetts area. Topics include: Experiences as students in the Leominster school system. Kindergarten classes and moving students along in bilingual education. Funding to keep students in school and in programs that work for individuals. How parents support education. ; 1 SPEAKER 1: For example, um, we talked about the original Head Start. You went to kindergarten. I couldn't believe that. [Laughter] Okay. I mean, the whole intent, and correct me if you see it differently, but the whole intent of Head Start is that society sees that there's a group of children who don't have the exposure, whether it's cultural, whether it's language development, they don't have the exposure in their formative years. And when they get to kindergarten or when they get to first grade, they're kind of behind. And, primarily, we identify those kids as coming from lowest socio-economic backgrounds. Okay? So, the idea was to begin a Head Start program and target that population. But who will fund it? A wonderful idea. And I think that as you look at the longitudinal studies that have been done over 20, 30 years since Head Start, you see that kids who have gone through Head Start have been more successful in school, is less apt to drop out, less pregnancy, uh, less involvement with substance abuse, and so on. It seems to be a pair, okay? And yet, the federal government only funds Head Start to the point where only about 56 percent of the kids who are eligible, not all preschoolers, only the kids from socio-economic background who are financially eligible for Head Start, that's how many can go. You check with a Head Start program [alumnus], or you go to the government, you go anywhere you want, and they cannot take all of the kids who qualify. Why? Because the funding isn't there. That's the problem. A need is seen but the immediacy of that need is not recognized. SPEAKER 2: Is that why…? What is the reason that Lancaster Street had the only kindergarten? And you went to that. SPEAKER 3: You know, that I don't know. SPEAKER 1: But maybe, just… SPEAKER 3: My experience was like kind of just the opposite because my kindergarten teacher was Ms. [Trinkle]. She married another teacher. SPEAKER 4: Coach Sullivan.2 SPEAKER 3: Sullivan. Right. SPEAKER 1: Okay. SPEAKER 2: She married [unintelligible - 00:02:28]? How do you know so? SPEAKER 3: So, then I was ready for the first break. Now, I'm in kindergarten, and she felt I was ready for the first grade, so they sent me. My birthday was in January, so therefore, I was supposed to wait like another year. And I remember Miss Lincoln… do you remember her? She had some administrative position. And I remember her testing me [unintelligible - 00:02:55]. SPEAKER 2: Was the class at Lancaster Street predominantly Italian? SPEAKER 3: Everybody were. SPEAKER 4: I went to that one before she did and my kindergarten teacher was Ms. Kendall, and they started the kindergarten because the whole area was all Italian children. They did not speak English. SPEAKER 2: And that, really, in disguise, was the first bilingual program in Leominster. SPEAKER 1: Yeah. It was the forerunner. SPEAKER 3: I think so. Probably true. SPEAKER 2: That… really. SPEAKER 1: They were trying to address the same name in a different way. SPEAKER 2: But the way they went about it is a lot different from "transitional bilingual education." SPEAKER 3: But, instead of keeping me in that class for two years, she move me on. SPEAKER 1: If you want… to tell you the story, the same thing happened to him. They want to keep him back. Am I right? SPEAKER 3: No, I'm just saying age-wise. SPEAKER 2: Yeah. SPEAKER 1: Right. SPEAKER 3: I would have had to stay there another year. SPEAKER 1: Right. I see. SPEAKER 3: Probably because they felt that I was [pretty] and trusted me. 3 SPEAKER 4: And then, moving on. SPEAKER 1: Let's say they did something different. They did something different for that population. They put them in kindergarten. They brought them to school a year earlier. SPEAKER 4: That's right. SPEAKER 1: They didn't do that for the general population. Right? SPEAKER 3: A friend of mine gave me a copy of the class picture that I had never seen in my life until maybe the last year, year and a half, and I must tell you, we really did look like ragamuffins [laughter]. But it's such a pleasure to look at that picture. I mean, it's your roots. SPEAKER 2: Yeah. SPEAKER 3: It's your roots. SPEAKER 4: Now, my kindergarten class progressed as a whole. You were in kindergarten. The next year you're in first grade, second grade, and I don't remember a lot of kids being held back. They just went on. SPEAKER 2: This is my whole point of modern versus [test], need versus popularity -- popular to have the bilingual program, need to get these kids go on and started. SPEAKER 4: It's also numbers. SPEAKER 2: Absolutely. SPEAKER 4: It's also numbers. SPEAKER 2: Absolutely. And experiment. SPEAKER 3: We were a very small… Leominster was a very small… SPEAKER 2: But the philosophy. I don't care if there are a thousand or a hundred. The philosophy was different. That's my whole point. Our philosophy was to get them in there, teach them English, get them going, and they'll be fine. And that turns out to be exactly true because as Lucy said, you want to go back and trace the history of folk. Those Italian kids started that first bilingual class. They did fine. They did very well in the city of Leominster. 4 SPEAKER 4: On the other hand, there were kindergarten students [unintelligible - 00:05:29] were we at 12th grade, or…? SPEAKER 5: Well, they never had… SPEAKER 3: Twelfth. SPEAKER 1: With me, as I said, I was 9 years old, so I would have started third grade. I guess about third grade and I stayed just a couple of months. We came to the United States and landed in February and I was put into the first grade. I didn't speak a word of English. I was 9 years old put into the first grade just to be under that school year. And then, I spent that summer in Indiana. I came back in the fall. I went into grade 2. Halfway through the year, the teachers made a decision and they pulled me out of the second grade. They felt I knew English well enough at that point. And they brought me across the hall and put me in the fourth grade classroom. So I started the year on grade 2, ended the year on grade 4. That following September, I was in [unintelligible - 00:06:37] and went into grade 5 with Mrs. McGraw. SPEAKER 2: Today, if you were 12, you had a CORE evaluation. Think about it. SPEAKER 4: Yes. SPEAKER 1: I still graduated a year behind you know, my age group. I lost a year, okay, although I ended up you know, skipping a couple of grades. But I was fortunate in that I was able to survive that. But I'm telling you that there were many others who did not survive that kind of so called "immersion." So, you know, Vinnie is right. You have to look at the individual and say, you know, "What's best for this person?" Not just today, but think about what you're doing in terms of how it's going to affect that person's lifetime. Because the greatest cost for failure is after a person leaves school. Well, you can put a kid into special education as costly as that might be. You can put a kid into bilingual program and some added cost. But you 5 have a youngster who drops out of school and fails, end up in jail or gets pregnant, is on drugs. Your sending a youngster to jail is going to cost you $50,000 a year to keep that person. SPEAKER 3: And you know, when they went in, they will know when they come out because they learned from each other. There's a teaching going on there as well. SPEAKER 1: Exactly. And that's why I believe in you know, rehabilitation programs in prisons, because, I mean, what else are you going to spend that money for? If it's just for punishment, if it's just for revenge, you wanted… you know, a person did something wrong, you're going to pay. So you're going to spend 10 years behind bars. Okay? But then stop and think about what happens when that person comes out. Are you going to end up sending that person back? Hopefully, that person becomes a contributing member of the society or if not contribute, at least you know, not detract from society. It's you know, the longer range. We're all human beings. SPEAKER 2: If you wanted to trace back again to that kindergarten class and at the beginning of that program with Lucy's, and trace how many of those people "went to jail" or on drugs, that got in trouble? You'd find there are few. You'd find very few. Think about it. And, going back to the point, the last one, we didn't have to spend a lot of money on the law enforcement, okay? Because parents… let's get to that point. Ethnic families – French, Italian, and others [unintelligible - 00:09:04] – were very proud people. Okay? And they didn't want to be embarrassed by having an officer come to the house. They took care of their own problems. All the teachers had… I can remember breaking a window. It was an accident but I was throwing stones and threw it the wrong direction and broke a window. Ms. Gallagher called up my house, the principal, to tell my mother. End of problem. End of problem. [Laughs] I mean, guys, I didn't have to be told more than once. SPEAKER 4: No. That's right.6 SPEAKER 2: Okay? Because that's the difference there. SPEAKER 3: Starting with Miss [Partimo], she was a fourth grade teacher, I had [unintelligible - 00:09:44] Miss [Partimo] for two weeks. And it was [glorious]. So they somehow closed down the fourth grade, and they sent half the class to the third grade and half the class to the fifth grade. And I had Miss [Gallagher] and Miss [unintelligible - 00:10:01]. She was the principal and she taught girls. I went to see her. She is deceased this year. But a year ago, when we did all that for the honorary members, I brought flowers to each of these women that couldn't attend the meeting partially because of transportation. And Miss Gallagher was one of them. And we sat and had the longest chat and then we talked about [unintelligible - 00:10:28]. One of the things that I came away with, she marveled at how… she found her job as relatively easy because of the parents that she worked with, the Italian parents and how… they wanted the best for their children. They wanted an education for their children. But the teacher was always right that they were going to follow the rules. And boy, the last thing a teacher has to say to you was, "I'm going to tell your parents." Oh, my God. You'd shiver and shake because again that was the worst thing in the world. Not to say [unintelligible - 00:11:08]. I don't mean that but… SPEAKER 2: Do you remember when your mother went to the [unintelligible - 00:11:12] to the open house [unintelligible - 00:11:14] you know. I didn't worry about my mother saying, and I know your mother well… I didn't worry about my mother saying and the teacher saying "Joseph is not doing…" That was expected. You came from an Italian home. You're expected to do well. "How is he behaving?" The teacher said, "Well, Joseph is a little loquacious." SPEAKER 4: [Laughter].7 SPEAKER 2: [Laughs]. I would hide under the… like a fool, I was hiding under the sheets. [Unintelligible - 00:11:46] [Laughter] But that was called pride. Your parents had pride and you didn't embarrass them. SPEAKER 1: They wanted you to be respectful. SPEAKER 2: That's right. SPEAKER 1: But I have to believe that… I don't care what ethnic group you're talking about, that basically parents want their kids to succeed. SPEAKER 3: That's right. SPEAKER 1: Okay? And you know, today, we use the word partnership. Education is a partnership, you know, the home and the school. I mean, they're all elements in a successful equation, I guess, if you want to call it that. You do have to have parents that support kids and support education. You know, Vinnie, tell us the story about you that you were telling me last week when you came to the United States. And at some point, there was a decision to be made about you going on in school or going to work. I thought that was quite interesting, okay? You might share that. SPEAKER 2: Maybe the support system that we have today is quite different from what it used to be years ago when family would contribute their ideas. And what relatives would say would be very important to determine what young children would take as their career, would take as a job, would do as the next thing. In my own personal experience, I know that it wasn't easy for me to go to school, especially to middle school in Italy because first of all, conditions were right after the war. Everything was with much destruction all around. And the fields, I remember one of the main sources of our income was the vineyards. My grandfather produced grapes and wine to be sold and to be processed. And as the story goes, they just had an attack by [unintelligible - 00:14:03] which destroys the grapevines, and then you need seven years before you can get production up again. So, the source of income was not available. My father had just come back from being a prisoner of war, and of course, you don't earn money while you're a prisoner of war. You're as 8 destitute when you come out as you were when you went in. And he was there seven years. This was in 1947. And when you make a decision to have your son continue the education, you have to buy the books. You have to provide the money to go to the district school which is [unintelligible - 00:14:53], which is not very far, but the bus that took you there was a jungle bus that also went to Padova, and so it took about 45 minutes for what would nowadays be maybe a 10-minute ride. SPEAKER 1: It was seven miles, and [unintelligible - 00:15:06]. SPEAKER 2: [Unintelligible - 00:15:06] But it took at least half an hour, 45 minutes with a detour to [unintelligible - 00:15:14] with stops for the general public. But, if you have to go everyday to school like that, you have to have a subscription to the bus and you have to come up every month with the money to pay for this transportation, plus the books were expensive. The books that you buy are dictionaries, textbooks. And I remember, I still have some of my old textbooks. The paper on which they were printed was so flimsy and the margins almost nonexistent because they tried to cram as much print as possible in the fewest number of pages. But, anyway, I know that my mother, whenever we needed to buy a textbook and we didn't have the money, she'd have to go around and beg, borrow, steal, as they say, for money for me to buy these books so we could continue our education. So, when we finally decided that I would come to the States and the idea was, "Well, should I go to work or should I continue with my education, knowing I have done reasonably well in school and that my family has invested all this money and effort in my ongoing education?" And of course, my father at that time was not in the best of health and my relatives were pointing out you know, "He's young. He's strong. He can get a job and get relatively good money coming right away. 9 Whereas, if you decide that he should go to school, first of all, he'd have to learn English, second, you have no income for him, third, you have to provide him with decent clothes and food. So that's going to be, instead of a plus, a drain on the family." But…/AT/mb

Part seven of an interview with educators in the Leominster, Massachusetts area. Topics include: How education and the family system has changed from generation to generation. How grocery shopping has changed. The types of food people ate and family dinners. Different Italian dialects. Playing games with neighborhood children. The difference today between the parent, child, and teacher relationship. ; 1 SPEAKER: Um, but from the time that the war ended, um, I was in school. My parents demanded that I go to school. Uh, at the school, I, I did what everybody else did. Uh, we had a dozen sheep or so and, uh, one of my older cousins, uh, who was out of school, you know, she's completed her fifth grade and was apprenticed to a tailor in, in town. Matter of fact, she made my first pair of pants. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I still remember that. [Laughter] Um, he would, he would take the sheep out to the fields during the morning, and, uh, I would release them in the afternoon after school. Now, the school day was like maybe 9 o'clock to about 12 o'clock, 12:30. Um, you know, you arrived, you know, when you arrived. Oftentimes you had a, uh, a slice of bread with you, you know, the half of breakfast, and you were not allowed in the classroom if you're going to be eating anything, so you have to… SPEAKER: No free lunch? SPEAKER: … you'd have to wait out in the hallway. SPEAKER: No free lunch? [Laughter] SPEAKER: No free lunch, right… SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: … until you had your piece of bread or whatever you brought with you then you went in. The school got out roughly 12 o'clock, 12:30 because there were no lunches served, and, uh, every-, everybody went home. So at that time, I would go to relieve my older cousin and, you know, then [unintelligible - 00:01:19] I'd bring the sheep home. Um, but coming to this country, it's when -- my father went to work as I said in a coalmine, came to Leominster, went to work in a plastic shop like so many others. My mother as well. Uh, we were fortunate that my grandmother, my mother's, uh, mother, lived with us for a while. So she was able to watch over the children and, you know, helped with the 2 household chores and so on. My mother, you know, went to work. But I can never remember my parents ever entertaining the thought that, you know, when I became 16 or 15 or whatever that I should quit school and go to work. They just kept telling me that education was the future and encouraged me and paid for my college education and supported me, including having a car to drive. [Laughter] SPEAKER: Whoa! You got that? SPEAKER: And money for Saturday night dates. [Laughter] SPEAKER: That was the common… that was the common statement of most Italian parents, and I'm sure the other parents, too. There was no discussion whether you were going to continue school. If you look down the street at 7 o'clock in the morning, you saw husbands and wives walking to the factory, okay, and coming home at 5 o'clock. Okay, and they would say to you, the common term was, "You're going to have it better than I have." There was no discussion about going to college. It's where you're going to go, where can we afford you to go. Okay? There was no discussion of, "I'm not going." You will. Okay? Or you took a trade. Let's not forget that. Lots of kids took trades, which was, as far as I'm concerned, I'm a big supporter. Okay, so electricians, plumbers, and many, many Italian plumbers and electricians [unintelligible - 00:03:09] in the city of Leominster and other cities. But to answer your question, there was no discussion. You were going to do exactly… SPEAKER: Never any questions. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: And I know my mother's family, they were all high school graduates except her oldest brother. And my grandfather has had a stroke, and my mother was the youngest of seven children, and because of that had to be the bread earner and delivered milk at 4 o'clock in the morning in the city of Boston and things like that 3 [unintelligible - 00:03:47] kept the family going. But all the girls went to high school. My aunt went to [unintelligible - 00:03:53] State. In those days, for Italian women to have a college education, I mean, I'm talking about late '20s and early '30s, it was one of the few things. My mother had the option to do that and elected to get married instead. So she didn't follow through with that. But as far as my dad's family, he was the second oldest. He was the oldest of nine in this country, but he had an older brother in Italy that didn't come until he was maybe 11 or 12 years old. So when my dad was in the eighth grade, two weeks in the eighth grade, my grandfather found the opportunity at that time to go to work at DuPont. So that was the end of his education. And he went to work at DuPont to help support the family, and that's part of the reason that he had later on had to study for the civil service type exams. All of that, but there was never any question. [Laughter] I don't think it ever came up that you weren't going to go to school. I mean it was just a given. It was a given. SPEAKER: Thinking of progression of the parents who came from Italy, the next generation, which would be our parents, us, and now our children, every generation had it so much better than the one before that, and each one contributed to the latter going [unintelligible - 00:05:41]. SPEAKER: The American dream? SPEAKER: Yeah. My kids have it so much better than I do, I think, in many ways. But in many ways they don't. We didn't have the hecticness of the world today. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: We had wars, but we didn't have the [unintelligible - 00:05:50] television, drugs, rapes, bombings, you know. We didn't have that. We didn't have that. SPEAKER: No. 4 SPEAKER: Divorce. Divorce. If you hear about a divorce in the city of Leominster in 1940, it was gossip all over the room. That was a big thing. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:06:07]. SPEAKER: Yeah. You know, today it's common that people live together. Imagine if someone lived together not married… SPEAKER: I was the first one in my family and all of my aunts, uncles, cousins, the first one to be divorced. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And I don't think that that… it was a trial. I mean, I can't even describe the guilt that goes with that. But you also know what you can live with and what you can't live with, you know. But I thought it was the end of the world, but my parents were so accepting of that. SPEAKER: They were a little more [modern]. SPEAKER: I suppose and trusted enough to know that it wasn't a frivolous thing. I mean, it wasn't something that, you know, people are married for two or three months like [unintelligible - 00:07:02] now and then they divorce. This is the thing, you know. And that was a very difficult thing to do. You felt also like a failure because no one else before you… you know, all your family that preceded you, no one… SPEAKER: The family system worked. I guess that's my point. The family system worked. Each generation, as Stella said, you know, it gets a little better. They have a little more. My father had his first car at 15 years old. We would walk up town, go to [unintelligible - 00:07:39], Missouri and [unintelligible - 00:07:41], which was downtown. They didn't have big supermarkets. And we would carry the bundles once a week and we would shop daily for our meats. We would go to [unintelligible - 00:07:52], our local [unintelligible - 00:07:52] right down the street, and you charged. 5 Let's try to do that today. We went to the Italian market. We'd say, "Jeff, charge it. My mother will pay you at the end of the week," and they pay. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:08:09] on the hamburger and salami. SPEAKER: They have Italian colonial store prior to [unintelligible - 00:08:14], one on Lincoln Terrace and one on Lancaster Street. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: The Coop. Yup. SPEAKER: Italian Coop. SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: Yup. \SPEAKER: And you'd go to buy groceries and they would write down the cost right on the bag and add it up. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: They do. [Unintelligible - 00:08:30] is probably charged. SPEAKER: And they were quick, too. I'll tell you something about a charge because I worked at [unintelligible - 00:08:41] but Luigi's Market. SPEAKER: Luigi's. SPEAKER: It was the old burger chain. And you're right. We used to have sludge that we kept in a little metal container so that, you know, Mike would be getting out a [unintelligible - 00:08:49] and come in and pick up some milk or bread and call me Mashy. Right Mike, Mashy? SPEAKER: Mashy. SPEAKER: Mashy. SPEAKER: Mashy. SPEAKER: Put on my slip. "Okay, Mike." I'd write it down. And then at the end of the week or whenever payday was, you know, they would all come in and say, "Okay, what do I owe?" And they will pay. 6 Well, I remember one time, Mike and Lucy were both there, and they said, you know, "Mashy, how much do we owe?" So I pulled out the slip and I said, "You owe," at the time, I'll say, "seven dollars and fifty cents." "Really? What did I buy? I don't remember getting that." SPEAKER: [Laughter] JEAN: "Hey, Mike, don't you remember you bought this, you bought…" "Uh, I don't remember that." But as it was, he had a brother. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Okay. And his brother had come in and bought that and I put it on his tab. [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I still remember that, and he couldn't figure out, "How come I owe you all that money?" [Laughter] We straightened that out. [Laughter] SPEAKER: You know, maybe we should [unintelligible - 00:09:48] the city and there were many that were set up like the Italian [unintelligible - 00:09:55] over there. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:09:58] market was on what? SPEAKER: On Mechanic Street? SPEAKER: Mechanic Street? SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: It was to the church there. SPEAKER: I think there's another one on Crescent Street, but I can't think of the name of that one. SPEAKER: Geronimo. SPEAKER: Right near South Cotton, is that Cotton Street? SPEAKER: The Geronimo. SPEAKER: The Geronimos were on the… SPEAKER: Okay. 7 SPEAKER: The flea market, The Geronimos. SPEAKER: It's not a flea market. It was [unintelligible - 00:10:18] the Geronimo. SPEAKER: Okay. SPEAKER: On Salisbury Street. SPEAKER: The Geronimos on Salisbury [unintelligible - 00:10:23] going on what? Mechanic, the beginning of Mechanic? SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Near the paint store. SPEAKER: Not only did the grocery stores give you a charge, they delivered your food. SPEAKER: They delivered. SPEAKER: All you do is call up and say, "I want this, that," and they delivered. SPEAKER: My mother had a bleach man, a chicken guy, and I had to always [makes beheading noise], right? A bakery guy and [unintelligible - 00:10:47] clothing guy. Remember the guy from Fitchburg? You have two bucks a week or a buck a week. And Savetelli's downtown. You go buy a vacuum cleaner and you give him a buck a month. SPEAKER: Would they make house calls, or where do those…? SPEAKER: They make house calls, except… oh, Savetelli's. Do they come around? SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: But all the other ones did though. SPEAKER: But all the other ones did. Milk, bread, bleach, chickens, bakery. SPEAKER 3: The rice man. SPEAKER 2: Mr. Freda, Joe Freda, and [unintelligible - 00:11:11]. SPEAKER: I never heard of a bleach man. SPEAKER: Oh, there were, yeah. You had to use bleach. 8 SPEAKER: The cabinets were clean. Laughter] SPEAKER: Ice man. [Laughter] SPEAKER: I mean, I saw all these others, but never the bleach man. So, what? Would they come with a…? SPEAKER: Well, it was mostly because of the product that would, you know… it came in glass containers. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: I could remember many times in Luigi's you know, my banging up against the gallon of bleach that was on the floor and breaking it, and then, oh, I don't like the smell. Then you had to clean it up. So I couldn't understand it, but you know, the charging obviously was a way of life at the time and very helpful, you know, very helpful. But in Pennsylvania, we talk about [unintelligible - 00:12:01], the coal mining town. When I first visited it again, I brought my wife with me. As we approached the town, it was a hilly area, and you could see the rows of houses. They're all duplexes. Okay? And down at the bottom of the hill was where the coal mines were. Okay? And the houses were all up on little narrow roads, a row of houses. They were all duplexes and about 50 feet behind them, a row of outhouses. Okay? They all had them. Eventually they were converted to little sheds for the garden. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Because, you know, indoor plumbing came. But remember the song "Sixteen Tons"? SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: "I owe my soul to the company store." SPEAKER: The company store. SPEAKER: Because the company owned the store and you charged everything, and they let you charge but you're also indebted to them. Okay? 9 So when times were hard and you went on strike, they supported you. They allowed you to charge, you know, for your groceries. And the houses were all company houses you rented. And so they didn't throw you out. Okay? But by the time, you know, the three-month strike or six-month strike, you know, ended, you're in serious debt. So you owed your soul, and that's exactly what it meant. Okay? You couldn't leave. You were pretty much chained, you know, to that company. And it's very visual as you approach the town and you see the homes. Now, they're all, you know, individually owned. Some people bought both sides. Most people bought one side. And what's funny about it is they modernized. Okay? And you drive into the town now and you go up the street, and you'll see one side of the duplex has got cement porch, wrought-iron railings. The other side still has the old, you know, wooden porch. Okay? One side decided to put aluminum siding on their house. The other side still has the asphalt shingle or the roofs of different colors. [Laughter] It's hilarious, you know, looking at it. But you know, I mean, even there, the idea of, you know, being able to support yourself during a time that was difficult was there, whether it was family or the company. But there was also a price to pay for that. You know, there's no such thing as a free lunch. And the services of delivering. I mean, that was one of my pleasures when I went to Luigi's. Take an order right on the telephone, just tell me everything you want, and then I put it in a basket and ring it up and put it in a box and bring it to your house. SPEAKER: And [unintelligible - 00:14:40] whoopee pie. SPEAKER: And it was great. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And it was great. 10 SPEAKER: And then a big treat was Mr. Kelly had a truck, and on Fridays, he came with fresh fish in his truck and went to neighborhood to neighborhood. And he had fresh vegetables, too. SPEAKER: And the ice man? SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. I felt one of the times that you… if you wanted 20 pounds of ice, you would put a [unintelligible - 00:15:07] all numbers around it, and the number at the top would tell the ice man how many pounds of ice you wanted. [Unintelligible - 00:15:11] soup on Monday. We always had soup on Monday. That must've been an Italian custom. Right? And then there was going to the neighborhood grocery store at [unintelligible - 00:15:20], and it was like every Monday to go get a soup bone… SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: … probably 15 cents. SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Oh yeah. Right. SPEAKER: That was… SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:15:31]. SPEAKER: Usually leftovers. That's how Menestra came into being. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:15:40]. SPEAKER: Most people didn't have a car. As I said, my first car came when I was 15 years old, when my father got his first car. SPEAKER: Mine's a piece of junk. SPEAKER: Mine, too. SPEAKER: Couldn't heat the oil. SPEAKER: Mine, too. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I still have the nice car that she's talking. SPEAKER: Yeah. [Laughter] 11 SPEAKER: My father had a car even before he got married. He was one of the first [unintelligible - 00:16:01]. SPEAKER: He was rich. SPEAKER: And his big thing was to go to Boston and buy an Italian newspaper, and he read that newspaper over and over and over again until he went back a month later to buy another newspaper. SPEAKER: I know that. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Over and over, the same thing. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: I can remember taking my father's car, your mother, my mother, and a bunch of old Italian ladies, that'll be six or five or six of us, and driving them around town in a Sunday night, and I didn't have a license. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And my mother thought I was wonderful. And then I gave her lessons. I gave my mother lessons, and she would get me so upset because she did so poorly. I'd get out of the car and walk home. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:16:45]. SPEAKER: I remember my family giving my mother lessons and it was in a little Chevy, like a two-seater. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Anyway, we were on [Victory] Market where Lancaster Street is now. SPEAKER: The [unintelligible - 00:17:00]. SPEAKER: Yes. SPEAKER: The [unintelligible - 00:17:02]. SPEAKER: Yes, that's right. SPEAKER: And we lived in a three-decker across the street from Joe on Graham Street [unintelligible - 00:17:08] even a block. 12 SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Lots of times, I'd be in the back. By the time we got to the… SPEAKER: Sandbank. SPEAKER: … sandbank, [people had already left]. [Laughter] That was the end of the lesson. [Laughter] SPEAKER: That was the end of the lesson. Right? SPEAKER: [Laughter]. [Unintelligible - 00:17:29] my mother eventually did drive home. My dad [unintelligible - 00:17:30], he had no choice. But she had to take lessons from you know… SPEAKER: A professor? SPEAKER: Yeah, right. [Laughter] But I remember telling her [unintelligible - 00:17:43] end of the street [laughter] it was already the end, because of the way, you know, she was learning, so… SPEAKER: I was in a similar situation as Joe was describing. My father never got his license. My mother didn't get a license until she was about 50 years old. So I was the only one with a license and had to drive everybody everywhere. On Sunday, when we visited relatives or wherever, it will be [unintelligible - 00:17:43] you know, driving wherever, you know, we needed to go. Going to work, that was… it didn't matter. Whether it was Saturday night I had a date, you know, the one night a week, whatever it was, my father worked 11 to 7, and at 10:30, I had to be home to pick him up and bring him to work. And Vinnie's father used to work in the same place, and I'd pick him up. So there were three or four that I would pick up and drop them off, and then I'd go and continue. Oftentimes my date would be kind of with me. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Or if we were at the [unintelligible - 00:18:37], I'd say, "Well, I'll be back in 45 minutes." SPEAKER: There were times when we'd eat canned foods for the longest time. I can remember my mother canning 200 quarts of tomatoes every 13 year, and all kinds of fruits and vegetables. And they always wanted everything fresh. And my father liked to go to the beach, so [unintelligible - 00:19:02] pack it up. My mother would spend the whole week cooking, getting ready to go. However, the spaghetti had to be cooked fresh, and he had a Bunsen burner. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:19:19] and they didn't have that, however. So he was going to make something so that he could change up, because he didn't like the sand in his bathing suit. So he got pipes and made a rectangle and then got canvas and covered it. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: So he went in, and the cops came by and it's not allowed. You have to keep it up three feet from the ground. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Everything was done by community. Every Sunday morning in the summertime, the bus would go up to the markets [unintelligible - 00:19:52] and up on Lincoln Terrace. And the people would come and pay a couple of bucks and get in the bus and go to the beach. SPEAKER: The beach? SPEAKER: The one down… SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:20:04]. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: The beach, right. SPEAKER: Yup. Yup. SPEAKER: Today, you… [unintelligible - 00:20:08] pick and choose. But you got on the bus and you went to the beach. What a big day that was. SPEAKER: It was a time when family activities… because you didn't have the communication, because you didn't have the opportunities that you have now. Now, every kid has got a job. Any kid who wants a job 14 has a job. That gives them money. That gives them independence. Okay? They have automobiles. I mean, now they go to proms, they're in limos, they're in tuxes and whatnot. And all that's been good in a sense. You know, when Joe talks about every generation has made life easier for the next generation, well that's true in some sense, economically. Okay? But in another sense, there's always a loss. There's always a price to pay for that. SPEAKER: That's true. SPEAKER: And a lot of the things that we're talking about—families being together, whether it was going to the beach—you did it out of necessity at the time because you didn't have other opportunities. Okay? So you went as a family. You did the cooking because, you know, they didn't have their faith in canned goods or whatever. But there were activities that brought the family and kept them, you know, kept the ties together. And today with transportation being what it is, communication, as many said, anything that goes on in the world we know about at the same hour, and we'll see a picture of it, okay? Whereas you know, Lucy's father, you know, would have to wait a month to go into Boston to get a newspaper, you know, to find out. So it's been good in many ways, but in other ways, you know, there's been a price. And I think if we all think back to our growing up, I think we can recognize, you know, some of that price to be paid for that. SPEAKER: You know, life was so simple then. Life was so simple then. SPEAKER: But did they think that? Did we think that? SPEAKER: We thought that as kids. We thought that as kids. But you think of what your parents would've been going through. You know, in Italy, I was the happiest in my life growing up in Italy. We were poor. I don't think I ever had more than one pair of shoes that my father had made for me. It was a pair of boots because I could wear those in the wintertime. You weren't going to get, you know, 15 shoes that you could wear in one season. It had to be… the rest of the country was barefoot or your mother made moccasins or, you know, whatever. And oftentimes, you know, meals was skimpy. At a wedding, my uncle's wedding, we were told -- my younger cousin, no, a cousin that was the same age as me, the other cousin was 5 years old -- "You, you can have one meatball. You two, you're going to share a meatball." So all they got was a half. Those were the instructions at this wedding. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I remember that. Okay? You know… SPEAKER: What about meetings when we were deciding on the menu for the retired [unintelligible - 00:23:16] that we always have. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: You know, we always select the same things, the fish and whatever [unintelligible - 00:23:25] brought me back to the days where we had the same meals seven nights in a row. [Laughter] SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: I never forgot that. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: I had six children. This was during the Depression, and on Mondays, they had soup bones, too. But each child had his own bone, so after they ate their pasta… SPEAKER: Oh, really? SPEAKER: Yeah, after they ate their pasta, they sucked on their bone to eat all that meat. And we thought nothing of it because that's how they grew up. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: And then one of the boys brought his girlfriend home, and she sat there and watched everybody suck on bones. SPEAKER: [Laughter] 16 SPEAKER: Yeah. I mean, pork was common because, you know, people raised pigs. But beef, I don't remember ever having beef in Italy. I remember having… SPEAKER: I know. [Have I?] SPEAKER: Saturday nights in my house. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Smells great. SPEAKER: I know. And [good food]. SPEAKER: And we're making… I hate it. Smells great. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:24:18] anymore. What was it, like pinkish? SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Remember polenta? When was the last time you had polenta? Okay? SPEAKER: I don't have that. SPEAKER: Well… SPEAKER: I like that. SPEAKER: Oh, I love it, too. But you know what's funny? You know, what's funny? Vinnie will remember this. That in Italy, the only time we had cornbread or polenta was when we ran out of wheat. Okay? Because corn was something that you just didn't eat. SPEAKER: That's… yeah. SPEAKER: Okay. It was more for the animals. SPEAKER: When your stock ran down, okay, all the stock you had in your storeroom, your bags of beans and potatoes, you know, whatever, that you raised because everybody raised their own food and you started seeing polenta, then you know that you were down and needed stock. Okay? And the only way that we could put any kind of flavoring on that was trapping little birds. Okay? And I used to take little mousetraps, and I'd set them outside in the winter, outside in the garden in the snow, buried in the snow with a 17 little piece of stale bread or something just showing, and little birds will get caught in there. Okay? And then you plucked them. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I mean, can you imagine how much meat there was in little birds? SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: But that's it. That's the only meat you had that might've gone in the sauce. So when you had, you know, polenta, which was the cheapest meal you could get—it's nothing but cornmeal and water spread on a big board—but you enjoyed it. You enjoyed it because you just make a game out of it. You just try to make designs, maps, or whatever. I'll meet you over here and you'll eat your way there. [Laughter] That was fun. SPEAKER: Women would get together, and I'd forgotten whose house it was with [unintelligible - 00:26:03] the area, and the polenta would be out on the board and they'd have one section that has like sausage. There were different kinds of things, you know. [Laughter] SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: I was so [frightened], but I don't know… there were no men and no boys there. SPEAKER: [They didn't like it]. SPEAKER: It was like a ladies' night out. SPEAKER: Do you know what? Sunday [unintelligible - 00:26:26] wintertime, my mother would say to us, "What are we going to have today? Ravioli?" All the things you die for at a restaurant, that you pay big time in a restaurant, we took for granted. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: And I would roll, you know, heaps on the fork or crimp the… SPEAKER: Ravioli. SPEAKER: … and we had food for two or three days. And I was in a [unintelligible - 00:26:47] because my father was on the football team. [Unintelligible - 00:26:49] next door. [Unintelligible -18 00:26:52] and I own the football field. And I could tell who I didn't want there [unintelligible - 00:26:56]. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: In the baseball field, the baseball would go to the [unintelligible - 00:27:01] and my father would come home. SPEAKER: My mother baked bread every week. You should make enough for the whole week, but the biggest treat for us kids was to eat American bread. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: White, sliced bread. That was a big treat. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: We used to call it the… I can only remember maybe twice by nine years in Italy ever having white bread. We used to call it pane degli angeli, the angel's breath. Okay? Because it was white. And we thought that was terrific. Now, years later, I'm over here and I want to buy a whole wheat bread and I pay twice as much. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:27:40]. SPEAKER: When I was 4, I had this all the time. [Laughter] Now that I got a few bucks… SPEAKER: I miss junior high school… and then ham and pickle sandwiches with mayonnaise. You didn't have the mayonnaise in those Italian homes. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: Never. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: And I liked it. My mother said [unintelligible - 00:27:57] "I like it." Wow! SPEAKER: [Laughter] 19 SPEAKER: And when they made us a lunch, they made us submarine sandwiches. It was embarrassing to go to class with submarine sandwiches and everyone had their white bread. SPEAKER: Yeah. A brown piece of bread, right? SPEAKER: Today, we all like the submarine sandwiches. SPEAKER: Yeah, but then we used to roll up the paper bag and take it home. We were told, "You have to bring that home. You don't want to waste that. Use it again." And by the end of the week, it was so oily [laughter]. SPEAKER: Matthew Mcgloster and Joe Mcgloster would go to school every single day with eggs and peppers in it, and the bag used to leak. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Their sandwiches were absolutely wonderful, but they used to leak every single day of the year [unintelligible - 00:28:39]. SPEAKER: Those were the days when the most you had to wrap that sandwich in was wax paper, and that didn't hold anything, so… SPEAKER: Right. Right. SPEAKER: And I used to go up to work at the apple farm, and I'd have an Italian round bread, cut, okay, [unintelligible - 00:28:54] meatballs, cut in half, the whole thing. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Most of the guys in those days were just so [unintelligible - 00:29:01]. You ate well. SPEAKER: You were lacking in some of the basic stuff. Like I said before, I can remember being you know, poor as you could be, I guess, eating nothing but maybe, you know, a bowl of milk and some stale bread that you threw in in the morning. And you had the milk because you had sheep or you had goats. And not eating again until suppertime you know, when… SPEAKER: But you know, you never knew you were poor. SPEAKER: No, that's the thing. You see…20 SPEAKER: You only know you were poor… SPEAKER: What I'm saying is… SPEAKER: … if you feel poor. SPEAKER: I can remember being cold. I can remember you know, not having enough to eat. I could remember, you know, not having money, money in the household, and I'm wondering how the parent… you said, you know, but how did they feel? You know, we thought we had it good. There were good times. But how did the parents feel? Because they had the responsibility. We didn't. Okay? But throughout all of that, and I think all of us will say the same thing, we might've been lacking in a lot of material things, but I don't think any one of us in our family has ever doubted that we were not loved. Okay? And that's the key ingredient. Okay? It didn't matter what you had or didn't have. I had a -- one of my friends in Italy, after the war, communism was big, okay, and then one show we'll remember, all the speeches from the piazza off the balcony of the municipal building are political speeches that you, you know, listen to. The town was small. I mean, they would harangue and you could hear them across town. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And of course, the kids all stayed out late. That was just part of life. You stayed out late. But one of the friends that I had, his father was communist. And during the day, when you're outside playing, oftentimes you know, you get hungry, okay, want a snack. But we didn't have fruit. You know, we didn't have refrigerators, so you didn't have fruit. The best that you could have was maybe to go in and get a slice of bread. And my mother used to bake, you know, the [unintelligible - 00:31:07] loaves. Once a week, it was a communal bakery. Ovens, okay, we just have to… SPEAKER: There were a lot of them. 21 SPEAKER: During the holidays, like Easter, you'd have to sign up and take turns. Your family's time to bake was maybe two in the morning. And of course, it will be a family affair. You don't leave your kids at home. You brought them with you. And everybody had fun. But the kids would say, you know, "We're hungry." So I'd go in and I'd get some bread slices. I'd get a slice of whatever we had. Okay? I could still remember the day that—and his name was Alfietto—he said, "Well, come on over my house." So we went to his house, and he wanted some bread. He couldn't have it. And I looked at the bread box, and it had a lock on it. SPEAKER: Oh, my goodness. SPEAKER: And only the father had the key. So, as poor as I was, I recognized that he was poorer. Okay? But I also recognized, I don't know how, but I also recognized the difference in relationship between the parent and the child. Okay? For the parent to do that, have so much control, okay, that they would put a lock on the bread box, told me something, and I knew I had something that he didn't have, and it was more than just being able to get bread. Okay? Somehow I recognized that at the time. SPEAKER: Right. Trust? SPEAKER: Did your mother have bread pudding? SPEAKER: Pardon me? SPEAKER: My mother would save all the old bread, and once in a while, I'd get home and there'd be a big bread pudding. That was wow. Cut you… cut off a slab. SPEAKER: And you grated your own bread crumbs, you know. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:32:48]. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: And cheese. And how many times have you skinned your knuckles grating cheese? [Laughter] 22 SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And put her on the oven and then sprinkle it with sugar. SPEAKER: Yes. Yes. SPEAKER: And I had a go. SPEAKER: Sugar or… SPEAKER: I had a go. SPEAKER: … olive oil or oregano. SPEAKER: Remember that? [Unintelligible - 00:33:02] I had a go. SPEAKER: Remember that, Vin? Olive oil and oregano and just a slice of bread. SPEAKER: Oh, beautiful. SPEAKER: That was, that was it. SPEAKER: I come home one day… SPEAKER: I can have a couple of episodes about bread. SPEAKER: Go ahead. SPEAKER: Go ahead. Your kids… SPEAKER: Plus, I just wanted to insert my goat story. [Laughter] I come home one day, and the goat [laughter]… he [unintelligible - 00:33:21] tree with a string. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: My father was in the house. He called my uncle down on Elm Hill Avenue. We came with the wheelbarrow, and they had a feast. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Watch it. SPEAKER: Oh, I'm sorry. SPEAKER: I had pigeons, goats, rabbits, and I found that wasn't safe. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Vinnie, what were you about to say? SPEAKER: That's okay. Talking about bread, one of the first recollections I have about bread is something striking because I don't think I could've been more than five, six years old. And I remember that I 23 used to go with my grandfather to the field. He would go there with the [unintelligible - 00:34:03] vines and do some of the work. And he would be my babysitter, because my mother would be somewhere else working. And as he worked, he would tell me stories. He had spent his youth and a lot of time building roads in South America, Argentina and Uruguay, and he would tell me, "When you grow up, you have to learn things about the world [unintelligible - 00:34:41] you should go to America." By America, I think he meant South America. "And when you're there, you'll find that things are aplenty there. Tomorrow, you won't eat today's bread." And I said, "How come? They only bake a little bread so that it's all gone by the time you want to have a second meal?" And I didn't quite understand. Then I asked him, "How come they only bake a little bread and tomorrow you don't have yesterday's bread leftover?" He said, "Oh no, there's fresh bread every day." And to me, the idea of fresh bread every day was completely inconceivable. I mean, how could that be? He says, "And there's meat. There's lots of meat. You can have meat anytime you want." And as a child, we saw meat as sausages, as bacon, the pigs that we slaughtered once a year. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: When that was gone, it was gone. SPEAKER: Gone. SPEAKER: That's it. No more meat. But there, you had meat every day and fresh bread. "You didn't eat yesterday's bread. What did you do with it?" "Well, feed it to the animals, do whatever you want, but you don't eat it." Later on, when I was going to elementary school, we used to play ball in the street, soccer, or kick the ball. And for lunch, once in a while, we'll have a slice of bread with olive oil on it, and sometimes it would be toasted so you could have a little garlic on it. 24 SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: I would go outside and watch my friends play ball and sometimes join them. Every so often, the ball would land on my bread [laughter] and it would fall. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And well, okay, I'd say, "I'll go inside and get another piece." And one of my friends would pick it up, clean it up, and eat it. And I didn't realize until I thought about it much later that's probably what they intended to do. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: They had no bread available. They were hungry. They were so proud that they wouldn't ask me for a slice of bread, and that was the only way to get some food in their belly. SPEAKER: Plus, we call that garlic bread today. SPEAKER: But it was toasted in the fireplace, not in the toaster, in the fireplace, and you took a clove of garlic and cut it, and you rub that on. That's how you got the garlic on. You didn't have garlic salt or whatever. But in a child's mind, when Vinnie talks about he could not conceive of bread not being available, okay, to us it's inconceivable that he couldn't conceive of it. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Okay? But a similar incident for me was coming into New York Harbor. Okay? This was February 1, 1949, and of course everybody was up on deck with the [unintelligible - 00:37:45]. It's cold and everything, but I don't remember that. And looking out into the harbor, into the city skyline and seeing this big bridge which might have been the Verrazano Bridge, I don't know, but I'd see all these things going back and forth. Now, in my experience, for 10 minutes, I debated as to whether they were dogs or cars. SPEAKER: [Laughter] 25 SPEAKER: I said, "Wow!" Now, this was from a distance obviously. You can't make out what they are except you see objects, you know, going across the bridge. And I kept debating. "Those are dogs," I said. "No, they can't be dogs." And then I would say, "They're cars. No, there can't be that many cars in the world." I mean, in our town, we had a doctor who had a motorcycle, there was another doctor who had a car, and there was somebody who had a truck. Everybody else walked. Or, if you were fortunate, you had a bicycle. Nine years old, I could not convince myself if those were cars because there could not possibly be that many cars in the world. That's how limited, okay, our thinking was growing up in that little place. Now, you multiply that millions of times across the earth, whether it's in Vietnam or it's in Kenya or it's in Alaska, okay, how narrow the world is to an individual that doesn't have that communication. Okay? And that gets us back, you know, to education, because that's what it was. It was a lack of education, whether it was not having a radio available through which you receive communication, your parents did not have those experiences that they could share with you because they grew up in the same kind of environment. When you talk about the autostrada, you said they have beautiful roads in Italy. Yes, from the 1950s on when they started building the autostradas. As we would ride in the autostradas on the bus and then in our car that we rented, and you look up because it's very mountainous, and you look up and you see all these villages up in the mountains and you see these little lines, okay, those were the roads. No wonder that people from one town never knew people from another town. How could you get there except by walking? And even then, we didn't dare to because we were told by our parents that the people on the next town were no good. [Laughter] SPEAKER: [Laughter] 26 SPEAKER: And had different dialects anyway. SPEAKER: The different dialect is unbelievable. You know, he talked about some of the towns. It was Popoli. It couldn't have been more than three kilometers away. Okay? On Saturdays, my parents would take whatever, the few vegetables or whatnot they had, and go and set up in the open air market, and I would go with them. And I'd be sitting there next to the blanket, [unintelligible - 00:40:38] people would come, and I remember a lady come in and asked me whatever the price of tomatoes or whatever it was. I didn't have the vaguest idea what she was saying. I didn't have the vaguest idea. I had to ask my mother. Okay, now being grown up, they had heard the dialects often enough, okay, that they could understand each other. But as a youngster, never having been out of the town and being exposed to that, I didn't understand. I'm not talking about an accent. I'm talking about something completely different. Okay? The words [tremendously shocked]… I'll give you an example. The word andiamo, which means, you know, we're going, you know, andiamo a scuola -- iam, you see I-A-M. The A-N-D is gone. The O in the end is gone. [Unintelligible - 00:41:31] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:41:32]. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Not andiamo, it's iam. Now, how do you get to…? SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:41:37]. SPEAKER: And at different times, they all said the words differently, the same basic word but differently. I mean, Latin, you talked about Latin. Latin was still very pronounced in the influence in the dialects, because a lot of it stemmed from the old, you know, Latin. The letter V, you know, we say veni, vidi, vici. Well, it wasn't veni, vidi, vici. In Latin, it was weni, widi, wici. Okay? The V was 27 pronounced as a W. Okay? So the street that we lived on, the Villa dela Valle, we would say Willa dela Walle. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: How is that close to Villa dela…? You'd never understand. The Italian teacher we had in high school, Mr. [unintelligible - 00:42:25], I used to talk to him like that, you know. SPEAKER: You didn't have Lucia? SPEAKER: No. I'd love to hear what you… they're all dead. [Laughter] We're the younger generation. Okay? But that's the way it was. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: I have a question. We were talking about how poor we were, but when you look at photographs that were taken when our parents got married and shortly after, they were always well dressed. SPEAKER: Oh, yes. SPEAKER: The wedding pictures were just beautiful. How could they afford all those [if they were poor?] SPEAKER: Took care of what they had. I had… your father, he had, I had dress pants, play pants, a pair of sneakers, and a pair of shoes. And we took care of them. SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: Okay? But you weren't in Italy. SPEAKER: No. I'm talking [unintelligible - 00:43:23]. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:43:23]. Oh, yeah, they always -- the wedding pictures are gorgeous. SPEAKER: I mean, they always had big hats. SPEAKER: But there's an Italian saying—correct me, Vinnie—"[foreign language - 00:43:32] fare una bella figura. You have to make a good picture." SPEAKER: The most important thing. SPEAKER: You have to make a good impression. Okay? So that impression to them was very important. So in something like, you know, a 28 wedding or having somebody at your house as a guest, you have to present yourself well. You have to make a bella figura. Okay? So you went all out. You went all out with those things. SPEAKER: Did you have a sitting room? SPEAKER: No, we had a kitchen. SPEAKER: My mother had a power and nobody ever… SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Yeah. We didn't have that till we came here. That's when we had too much. [Laughter] SPEAKER: Yes. SPEAKER: Yes. SPEAKER: Over there, all we had was a kitchen. SPEAKER: No matter where we lived, we had a sitting room, and we had a kitchen going, so… in two of the houses we lived in. SPEAKER: No, but that's true. Impressions have always been very important. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Yeah. And of course, that… SPEAKER: The women show you the red carpet face. SPEAKER: It goes along with the pride. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: Exactly. SPEAKER: And at a wedding, a family affair… SPEAKER: Well, you described… SPEAKER: … you put out the best that you have even if you have to borrow to do that. And you go kind of go overboard. SPEAKER: Are you also impressing the people that you left behind to show them that you're doing well in this new country? SPEAKER: Absolutely. Absolutely. SPEAKER: Probably. SPEAKER: No, no, I went back, like I said, 1996 and I met all my first cousins. I'd never seen them because they were all younger, so it's the first 29 time that I met them, and they're adults, you know, for the most part. The second cousins were [laughter] younger but the first cousins were all, you know, married you know, for the most part, have families of their own. And I was at the time, you know, 57 years old, so I was retired. I don't know if that made them… you know, because they asked me, [foreign language - 00:45:28] you know, "Do you have a pension?" I said, "Yes." Now, maybe to them that was inconceivable [laughter], okay, to use that word, that I was able to go there, take a tour, you know, rent a car and whatnot. But they had cars, too. They had cars, too. And maybe, maybe from an economic viewpoint, they might've been impressed, but I probably left there being more impressed with them and their families than they had of me. Okay? SPEAKER: My mother's family, most of them stayed in Italy, and my father had never met them. But whenever they took pictures and took these snapshots and sent them to my mother's family, they always made sure there's a car within the picture. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: That's right. SPEAKER: Absolutely. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:46:17] trying to tell the in-laws that your daughter married okay. SPEAKER: Do you still have the wedding pictures? SPEAKER: Make a bella figura, eh? [Laughter] SPEAKER: Speaking of funny pictures, my mother's now in the nursing home. And straightening up and things, I found this rolled up picture -- well, 1932. Can you figure out how brittle that was? And it was a picture of their wedding reception with the hotel name there at the bottom, March 1932. And I was amazed at how many people that I recognized because it had all the guests, too. The family was all lined up at the back. I think it's the only picture that I have that 30 has the entire family. And of course they're all mostly deceased. There are three living people out of that entire family. SPEAKER: Wow! SPEAKER: And then of course all the guests were in the foreground. Well, there were people that I didn't know, and Smithy [unintelligible - 00:47:27] I see him once in a while and I know he's a possible relative. So I showed him the picture. You know, he knew this one, he knew that one, so I added a few more names and wrote them down. And a couple of them, [unintelligible - 00:47:43] I said, "They can't drive. [Laughter] I couldn't believe this." Well, how did they get from Leominster to Boston…? SPEAKER: Exactly. SPEAKER: … to this wedding in March [unintelligible - 00:47:56] the whole bit, they took cabs. I could not… I still… it's inconceivable to me that they could have done that. SPEAKER: Right. Right. For that kind of an affair, they have to present themselves in a positive light. SPEAKER: They didn't have [unintelligible - 00:48:12]. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: You went to here, you went to Littleton, [unintelligible - 00:48:16]. SPEAKER: Oh, yes. SPEAKER: It used to take us four hours to get to Littleton. SPEAKER: You know what? Your neighbor, your ex-neighbor just died recently. SPEAKER: Mrs. [unintelligible - 00:48:23]? Yeah. I heard that. SPEAKER: Yeah, Vinnie was talking about playing soccer. It was a ragball. SPEAKER: Both. Whatever you could get. 31 SPEAKER: Just a stocking filled with rags. You keep wrapping the stock around it until, you know, and then you sewed it up, and we all did it. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:48:38]. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:48:45]. SPEAKER: It wasn't until after the war -- we used to get packages on occasion from the relatives in the United States, and it was always a big family thing when a package arrived. It was the town news. You know, the [unintelligible - 00:48:56] family got a package from America. And so, all the kids would gather around it, they open it up, and there might be some clothing or this and that. One time, there was this real ball. Okay? A real ball. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: So my cousin and I took it outside and we were so proud to show, you know, to all the kids we got a real ball, rubber ball, and we're playing soccer and damn it, we can kick that thing to make it go where we want. We just had a heck of a time with it. Okay? SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Years later, we come to the United States. In the summertime, we played baseball. And come the fall, I see these kids out—this is in Pennsylvania—and they're throwing a ball around. I look at it; I reckon it's a football. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: We had no idea what that ball was. Okay? We were trying to play soccer with a football. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: And so, I was laughing about it years later [laughter]. Okay, thinking of these little ragamuffin kids barefooted trying to play soccer with a football. We had no idea. We didn't know what a football was or a baseball. Soccer's the only game that we knew. 32 So whatever it was, we were going to play soccer with it. [Laughter] SPEAKER: Remember the baseball? Every Christmas, somebody would get a new baseball. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: And that lasted us all summer catching it. [Unintelligible - 00:50:15] SPEAKER: I remember we played baseball on your [unintelligible - 00:50:24]. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: And the Mazafarro was owned by [unintelligible - 00:50:29] and oh, yeah, you know, you never forget those neighborhoods. You just don't forget them, you know. And we used to go [unintelligible - 00:50:36] and entertain yourself. I mean, made up your own rules. You know, you learned leadership that way as well. You know, everything is planned [unintelligible - 00:50:47]. SPEAKER: Yeah. Getting along with your peers, right? SPEAKER: We were all playing. SPEAKER: When I came to Pennsylvania in 1971, almost every single principal in the city of Monticello was Italian. Remember that? SPEAKER: Mm-hmm. SPEAKER: And who would have ever thunk that we would elect an Italian mayor? That never happened before. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:51:08] city council. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Okay. That I guess is the determination and trust that maybe this ethnic group [unintelligible - 00:51:16]. SPEAKER: As I said, my dad was the first Italian congressman. SPEAKER: That's right. That was amazing. But I'll tell you what, he'd walk on the street. I remember one Halloween going uptown, he had 33 peashooters, bows, [unintelligible - 00:51:31] peashooters, wax, the whole… SPEAKER: The whole thing. SPEAKER: The whole thing to get [unintelligible - 00:51:36]. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:51:38]. [Laughter] SPEAKER: We never… we got to the edge of town, picked them up… SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: Do you remember the wax, Wanda? SPEAKER: What of it? SPEAKER: What we were referring to about wax? [Unintelligible - 00:51:51] what we did with the wax. SPEAKER: Hold it. After this story, though, we have to end. SPEAKER: Yeah, okay. [Laughter] SPEAKER: It's getting late. But it was very enjoyable. [Unintelligible - 00:52:00] SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:52:04] get all that stuff and we melted the wax on top of it to preserve it. SPEAKER: Like paraffin. SPEAKER: Like paraffin. SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: And on Halloween. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:52:11]. [Crosstalk] SPEAKER: Uh-huh. SPEAKER: My generation is [unintelligible - 00:52:18]. SPEAKER: You never had peashooters and stuff like that? SPEAKER: No. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: But I probably wouldn't have to [unintelligible - 00:52:24]. SPEAKER: I do remember just to add. And you asked me how my grandparents probably got to this area, and through our conversations it was the building of the Clintondale… 34 SPEAKER: Okay. SPEAKER: Yeah. SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. SPEAKER: That's where it was. SPEAKER: It took me a little while trying to put that together. SPEAKER: Yup. SPEAKER: Maybe we should end just with an education question. I was wondering, if you could tell me what the difference is nowadays between the parent, child, and teacher relationship? I think it was Joe that mentioned that if you did anything wrong, you were really worried about what your parents think, that… SPEAKER: Yeah. I mentioned it, so I'll start it. I relate to my mother—not my father, my mother. Mothers for some reason, in Italian families were the ones that took care of the school business and all that kind of stuff. And we were taught certain things, okay? And we were taught respect and, you know, parents respected professionalism. Okay? The teacher was a professional. When the parent went to the school and the teacher said this, that was accepted without question and you were expected to represent your family as a gentleman, right or wrong. The last few years, I spent in education, and I spent a number of years doing something [unintelligible - 00:53:43] filling in at interim, okay? Today, the child is never wrong. They go home and they tell their parents, "The teacher did this or said this." Their mother picks up the phone and calls another child. I called so many kids. This is getting to be common in the school. Okay? Right or wrong, the kid is going to say, "Oh, yeah, Jeremy was right. The teacher was wrong." Recently, I witnessed when an excellent teacher was dismissed on the say-so of a few kids who fabricated the story, and I know they fabricated it. I wasn't the principal. It would've never happened… but I guess the word I want to use is trust and respect, 35 and they don't happen today. The kids run the show, and the principals and the superintendents and the teachers are frightened of litigation and fabrication. And it's absolutely… [I worked at destroying, kids were surviving but it certainly makes things] [unintelligible - 00:54:49]. SPEAKER: Anything else you can add on that note? SPEAKER: I guess, you know, if we talk about the world getting smaller, so much more of the outside has come into the school. Schools used to be more closed. [Unintelligible - 00:55:04] any of your classes, you close the door and the teacher taught and so on. But as we've expanded, as the school has opened up to the world to educate kids, the world has also come into the school. It's been a two-way street. And I still believe that parents basically want what's best for their kids. Sometimes they may not know what's best for their kids. Sometimes they might lack the parenting skills. Because in that respect, life is a lot different today than it was 40 years ago. And so it was simple in that respect. You had clear lines of authority. Whatever your parents said, that's what you did. Relatives supported that. They would never contradict your parents. Parents never contradicted the school. They might think the teacher was wrong, but because the teacher was an authority figure and it was instilling the respect of authority that was more important than the incident itself, okay, that's what they were trying to deal with. And some of that has been lost. I mean, I agree with Joe. But I still basically believe, you know, the occasions that I've had disagreements with parents over kids obviously, when you sit with them one on one and you communicate to them that you understand they want what's best for their youngsters, just respect the fact that I also want what's best for your youngster. We're together on this, okay? Let's not have the confrontation between us, because that moves us away 36 from what the object of the conversation was, and that's this youngster. That's what we're trying to deal with instead of satisfying our own egos. Okay? SPEAKER: Let's say we did do well… SPEAKER: So there's more dialogue. There's more dialogue now between school and home. Okay? There wasn't before. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:57:07] is to get parents and discuss. And most of the times, I would say we want to get the point across and the people would leave happy. Okay? And we took the time to get them in. But we also had staff that understood, and they took the time to get on the phone and work with kids [unintelligible - 00:57:27]. We teach to a [testing]. We have a [unintelligible - 00:57:33]. I swore to God that I hope we never became New York. We have to ace the test. But we teach to a test. SPEAKER: I never [unintelligible - 00:57:43] day that we would teach to a test. SPEAKER: Well, you two are an unusual pair though. I mean, one of you was always ready when there was a CORE evaluation. I know schools with principals who [unintelligible - 00:57:55] in a CORE. SPEAKER: That is important. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:58:00]. SPEAKER: Right. SPEAKER: But there are schools where principals [unintelligible - 00:58:02]. SPEAKER: Some say special education, bilingual education, anything out of the mainstream, has been outside of their realm of responsibility. So the special education is the realm of the special educator and the director of special ed. It's a SPED problem, let him handle it. Joe and I always work on the premise that if it's in our four walls, they belong to us. Whether it was bilingual or SPED, they were our concerns and our problems. Lucy is right. It's one of the 37 things that I don't see today. There's a lot of administrative involvement in some of those areas. And there should be more, because the principal controls the resources in the building. It's not the SPED director, it's not the LD teacher who will be sitting there and promising that we're going to do this or that or make this modification for the benefit of the youngster and then can't follow up on it because somebody else sitting there disagrees. Okay? Somebody has to be the arbiter of that. Somebody has to, and that's the principal. SPEAKER: Lucy never has to make an appointment to see us. I mean, no teacher ever had to make an appointment. I guess that's what's happened today in schools. SPEAKER: Open door. SPEAKER: Yeah. I know the schools in Leominster, you have to make an appointment to see the principal as a staff did. Christ, that's sacrilegious. A parent has to make an appointment. I know a parent went into a school not too long ago, he was told to come back tomorrow. [Unintelligible - 00:59:33] my telephone number because if it were a small problem, you never let it get to be a big problem. [But times are changing.] SPEAKER: We just need to… there's only a few minutes left on this. So thank you very much though. I could stay here for hours. SPEAKER: [Laughter] SPEAKER: All of you were so informative. And thank you again to Lucy. Thank you very much. SPEAKER: [Unintelligible - 00:59:56] a lot of fun [unintelligible - 00:59:59] negative. SPEAKER: This is the end of the interview./AT/mb/es

This article reports on a continuing professional development program run by the Imperial War Museum in London for educators involved in teaching about European memories. On the basis of two sites visited in Hungary which were elements of the educational program, the Memorial Shoes on the Danube Promenade and the Memento Statue Park, this article suggests that Alison Landsberg's concept of prosthetic memory can be applied to these sculptural monuments. It explores the political potential of empathy in transmitting diverse European pasts and of mapping individual performative responses to less familiar cultural contexts.