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A studyof Edmund Burke's theory of history has not, to my knowledge, been undertaken before. There are two principal justifications for it. The first is that since Burke is, as some have claimed, "the principal founder" of the Romantic theory of history, his theory of history, as one aspect of the complicated association of thought and feeling called Romanticism, is important in the history of ideas. The second reason is that almost all of Burke's politics depends on his view of history or, at least, can be explained by it.

Considering the importance of political science as an academic subject in our time, it is surprising that more attention has not been given, until now, to the history of political study and teaching. As Professor Anderson's book makes clear, an understand

In 1928 Hans Proesler, whom we shall meet in the course of this study, assumed the presidency, that is, became the Rector, of what can 1928 Hans Proesler, whom we shall meet in the course of thisbe described as the Niirnberg school of economics (Hochschule für Wirtschafts- und Sozialwissenschaften). The address he delivered on that occasion can properly serve as the starting point for my own presentation, for it dealt with German economic history, its development and problems. In his talk Proesler pointed out that it was the eighteenth-century enlightenment that opened the road to economic history by assigning to studies pointing in this direction a niche in the lecture hall of general cultural history. In Germany such men as Justus Möser, Gottfried Herder, and some members of the then-famous Göttingen school of historians, Schlözer, Gatterer, Heeren, von Anton, and Fischer, are considered by the historian of economic and social history as having stood at the cradle. Although German Romanticism had done much for historiography in general, its role for economic history was very limited. Romanticist historians were not primarily interested in things economic, although in the frame of legal and constitutional history on the one hand, and in connection with classical studies on the other, scholars of that period and the decades following made contributions to this field of knowledge. I might mention Savigny, Eich-horn, Waitz, Böckh, Otfried Müller, Mommsen; and a few minor figures, such as Hüllmann and Hannssen, even devoted themselves to special problems in the area, that is, financial and agrarian history, respectively. Georg von Below, the renowned German historian, treating Proesler's topic a few years before the latter, emphasized the contribution of the Prussian archivist, Georg Wilhelm von Raumer (1806-1856). Not only did the latter take an interest in matters economic but his ideas even tended toward what we would today call a materialistic interpretation of history.

Our knowledge is still insufficient to allow us to assess the overall significance of the mestizo in Philippine history. But on the basis of what we now know we can make some generalizations and some hypotheses for future study. It is clear, in the first place, that the activities I have described are those of Chinese mestizos – not Spanish mestizos. While the Chinese mestizo population in the Philippines exceeded 200,000 by the late nineteenth century, the Spanish mestizo population was probably never more than 35,000. Furthermore, those who commented at all on the Spanish mestizo noted that he was interested in military matters or the "practical arts" – never in commerce. The aptitudes and attitudes of the Chinese mestizo were in sharp contrast to this.Secondly, the Chinese mestizo rose to prominence between 1741 and 1898, primarily as a landholder and a middleman wholesaler of local produce and foreign imports, although there were also mestizos in the professions. The rise of the mestizos implies the existence of social change during the Spanish period, a condition that has been ignored or implicitly denied by many who have written about the Philippines. It needs to be emphasized that the mestizo impact was greatest in Central Luzon, Cebu, and Iloilo. We cannot as yet generalize about other areas.Third, the renewal of Chinese immigration to the Philippines resulted in diversion of mestizo energies away from commerce, so that the mestizos lost their change to become a native middle class, a position then taken over by the Chinese.Fourth, the Chinese mestizos in the Philippines possessed a unique combination of cultural characteristics. Lovers of ostentation, ardent devotees of Spanish Catholicism – they seemed almost more Spanish than the Spanish, more Catholic than the Catholics. Yet with those characteristics they combined a financial acumen that seemed out of place. Rejecters of their Chinese heritage, they were not completely at home with their indio heritage. The nearest approximation to them was the urbanized, heavily-hispanized indio. Only when hispanization had reached a high level in the nineteenth century urban areas could the mestizo find a basis of rapport with the indio. Thus, during the late nineteenth century, because of cultural, economic, and social changes, the mestizos increasingly identified themselves with the indios. in a new kind of "Filipino" cultural and national consensus.Those are my conclusions. Here are some hypotheses, which I hope will stimulate further study:1. That today's Filipino elite is made up mostly of the descendants of indios and mestizos who rose to prominence on the basis of commercial agriculture in the lattetf part of the Spanish period. That in some respects the latter part of the Spanish period was a time of greater social change, in terms of the formation of contemporary Philippine society, than the period since 1898 has been.2. That in the process of social change late in the Spanish period it was the mestizo, as a marginal element, not closely tied to a village or town, who acted as a kind of catalytic agent. In this would be included the penetration of money economy into parts of the Philippines. There were areas where the only persons with money were the provincial governors and the mestizos.3. That the Chinese mestizo was an active agent of hispanization and the leading force in creating a Filipino culture characteristic now of Manila and the larger towns.4. That much of the background explanation of the Philippine Revolution may be found by investigating the relationships between landowning religious orders, mestizo inquilinos, and indio kasamahan laborers.It is my hope that these hypotheses may stimulate investigation into this important topic which can tell us so much about economic, social, and cultural change during- the Spanish period of Philippine history.

Once upon his discussiona time, oraroundso it seems, outstandingthe historiographerworks by leading could professors. Perhaps in some fields of scholarship the time still lingers, but not in recent American economic history. A quick glance at studies applying to the twentieth century that have appeared since World War II shows a large array of books that vary in merit but include few outstanding works. Furthermore, the majority of both the more or less important books have been written by people who, to the best of my knowledge, would not call themselves economic historians.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with Arthur P. Brown. Mr. Brown discusses his county commissioner experience during the post-Depression years. ; 8p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Arthur P. Brown Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Arthur P. Brown Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Brown, Arthur P., an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Arthur P. Brown. Mr. Brown discusses his county commissioner experience during the post-Depression years. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Would you please give me your name for the recording? AB: Arthur P. Brown. MT: You were a county commissioner for a number of years in Weber County. Would you give me those years please? AB: I served from 1941 and '42, and then was defeated in the next election. Then I served from 1946 to 1965. MT: Are there any other county commissioners that you know of that served prior to you that are still living? AB: No, I don't think that there are any. MT: Let's just talk a little about the county government and its function in trying to recover the county from the Depression and so forth. AB: Well, I know that I worked on the roads before I was in the county commission. I had worked on the roads for about seven years. And of course, in our time, after '42, the Depression was over, but we worked along with the government on that. I was driving a truck and patching the roadways, and the commission would send us out with the equipment. MT: Did the county participate with the federal government on new road projects, or what did they do on that? AB: Yes, they would help on it with the equipment and one thing and another. 2 MT: Remembering back, which roads did you work on? Did you have anything to do with the North Ogden overpass over here? AB: Yes, I worked on that. I was a county employee then, but I was never on the welfare rolls myself. They sent us out there to work as county employees. MT: What other areas do you recall where the county worked with the government to bring about recovery? AB: Well, the Depression was over when I was on the commission. When I was working on the roads, I didn't have any occasion to know what was going on. MT: What other occupations did you pursue during the period from 1929-39? AB: I was farming down here in Roy. This is the old place here, and we bought an old place over here. Then I moved out here in the north part of Roy for five years, and my contract was one-half for the lease of the property. I didn't want to lease it anymore, so I moved over into Riverdale. I got a job working over there on the county roads. That was in March of 1933. And I worked there until January of 1941, then I was the commissioner. I wouldn't mention that, Mack, because I - as far as it concerned me - I was lucky to have pretty well something to do. MT: What overall impressions stick with you from the Depression? What do you think that the people learned as a result of the Depression? MT: I guess that each individual would have a different effect from it. One individual would say, "By golly, I'm not going to do this, and I'm not going to do that," and one thing and another. MT: Are there any lasting effects of the Depression that you think kind of guide you in what you do? 3 AB: Well, I don't think of anything right now. I know that I was awful lucky and fortunate at that time to have something to do. And I moved out here in '39, to this little place in '39, so that I would always have something to come back to, and keep me busy. But as far as the Depression is concerned, I would hate to see us go through another one like that. MT: What's your overall assessment of the government programs, the CCC and the PWA, and those programs? AB: Well, all these programs that were put into effect were put in for a good purpose. The purpose that they were put in for is good. But when they do anything like that, I don't care whether it's in civilian life or religious life or anything like that, somebody has got to take advantage. Now, for the people who really needed the work, it was a godsend to them. And the people who would get in there, and take it for what they could get out of it, then it wasn't so hot. So it had an effect both ways. Well, as I say, it did affect me some, but I didn't suffer or go without too much. I'd just like to say one thing: I've found the public in general very cooperative, if they know what you're talking about and all the circumstances. People have come in and jumped all over us for taxes, and that, and when you sit down with them and reason with them, why then they can see it. And we try to be fair.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with Dr. Joseph V. Morrell. Dr. Morrell discusses the 1918 flu epidemic, practicing medicine and surgery for the railroads, and trying to maintain a medical practice during the Depression. In 1917 his family purchased a home built by David Eccles for one of his children. ; 9p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Joseph V. Morrell Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Joseph V. Morrell Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Morrell, Joseph V., an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Dr. Joseph V. Morrell. Dr. Morrell discusses the 1918 flu epidemic, practicing medicine and surgery for the railroads, and trying to maintain a medical practice during the Depression. In 1917 his family purchased a home built by David Eccles for one of his children. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Where did you live during the Depression years, from 1929-39? JM: I lived here in Ogden. MT: And what was your profession? JM: I was a physician, general practice. MT: Did you have any unique practice of any nature here in Ogden at that time? JM: Well, I was a surgeon for all the railroads here in Ogden at that time. MT: What were the problems of a doctor during the Depression years, Dr. Morrell? JM: Well, my particular problem, of course, was the scarcity of doctors in Ogden at that time. Many of them had gone into the service, and we were kept pretty busy at that time. MT: What would a new doctor's problems have been? JM: Well, it was only about ten years previous that influenza had raged over this whole country, which lasted for about three years. That was one of the most severe experiences that we ever had. MT: What year did you start your practice here in Weber County? JM: In 1907. MT: And you went out of practice when? JM: Well, I retired in 1944 as a result of hip joint disease that came on very suddenly 2 and kept me on crutches and in bed for eleven years. Then after eleven years and several operations, I managed to get freedom from pain and the stiff hip, and I was able to get employment with the Utah General Depot with the US Government for military service. I was able to carry on the kind of activity that they needed. Then for an additional eleven years, I kept up that employment, retiring only after I became 88 years of age. MT: And now how old are you? JM: Ninety-two. MT: Do you remember anything particularly about the Depression years, 1929-39, that might be of interest to people? JM: Well, I was employed mostly at that time by the railroad companies. There were three of them, and while I did do a little general practice, I was employed most of the time with my railroad work. That work occupied my time pretty generally. The noticeable thing for me was that their business, as well as the general business in the community, had been very limited, and they reduced their wages by fifty percent, which made difficult going for me because it still consumed all of my time but made the going pretty hard. Salaries at that time were very low anyhow, and my income from my medical practice at that time was never enough to satisfy all of our needs. We had a growing family, and it became pretty tough. MT: Do you remember any of the new doctors who came in during that time? What would have been some of their problems in starting out during that time? JM: Well, of course, incomes for everybody were very definitely limited. It made tough going for all classes in the community. Prices of goods were very low, but 3 you didn't have anything to buy with. But it did mean that, while we were still trying to get started, we would buy what we needed at the low prices even though it became very difficult. I had a considerable amount of life insurance, and I sacrificed a considerable amount of that to buy some rugs like we have on the floor here. We covered the floor with oriental rugs, which in the meantime were a great convenience for us because then we didn't have to find any additional rugs. Other things were the same way. We tried to buy although we had to sacrifice. But, in the end, it was a very good investment for us. MT: Did you participate at all in the script program, where the professional people would get produce from the farmers as payment for their services? JM: I don't remember now just what we did in the way of script. I think we were issued, but we had something that we had to show to get gasoline. MT: Do you remember anything else from the Depression years that would be helpful to mention – the difficulty of collecting money and so forth.? JM: Well, the collection of money during the Depression was just zero. The only money that I collected was what I got in the way of salary, but salaries were limited to amounts of, I believe, $125 a month from two railroads, and the third one $50 a month. So the total income was only about $300 a month. And I had to furnish everything out of that. So everybody suffered. MT: Did the farmers ever pay you with produce or anything along that line? JM: Yes, to a certain extent. We got vegetables and fruit, particularly fruit. Prices were low, however, so it was not difficult to live if you did have some income. But during that time, as I said, I sacrificed about $15,000 in life insurance, and that 4 made it possible to get food. MT: When did you build your home here? JM: Well, we didn't build a home. This home was built .by David Eccles about 1906 or 1907, and we bought it in 1917. He built three homes here for three of his children, and then they were all vacated, by the time we bought ours, by his families.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with Hyrum B. Wheelwright. Mr. Wheelwright recalls his experiences in the lumber business and in an LDS bishopric during the Depression. He talks about government policies and Marriner Eccles in particular. ; 9p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Hyrum B. Wheelwright Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Hyrum B. Wheelwright Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Wheelwright, Hyrum B., an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Hyrum B. Wheelwright. Mr. Wheelwright recalls his experiences in the lumber business and in an LDS bishopric during the Depression. He talks about government policies and Marriner Eccles in particular. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Where did you live during the years from 1929-39? HW: I lived at 2425 Jackson Avenue. MT: What was your business during those years? HW: I was in the lumber business. MT: What do you remember about the lumber business during that time? HW: I remember I kept the records for a long while. The total sales in Ogden, in February 1932, were $7,400. That's the low point in lumber sales for the year, anyway. February is the low point for the year. MT: Were you connected in any way with the Wheelwright Construction Company? HW: No, they bought from us occasionally. The reason our sales were that high, was that was the time that Williamson Auto Body was establishing here in Ogden, and we were selling to them. They were manufacturing bodies for automobiles. MT: You were in the bishopric of the [LDS] 12th Ward during that period. Now when was that? HW: I was in the bishopric from September 1925 to December 1936. MT: How much construction and building was going on during that time? HW: Well, I don't know unless I would go back into some records. But there wasn't very much building going on in Ogden at that particular time. In fact, I figure that we were losing about $500 in our little business. We had taken our surplus and 2 we started building up a surplus in 1919, 1920. So 1929-34 we had lost half of the money that we had built up in surplus to operate the company. MT: When did things start to seem easier as far as your business is concerned? HW: About 1934, or 1935, and by 1936 or 1937, we got out into the profit line. MT: Is there anything in particular that seems to account for that? Something the government did, or that you did, or others? HW: Well, the government at that particular time went into this homeowners loan deal where the mortgage was payable by the month and they released the money. So that was one factor on new construction. Then the homeowners loaned money on these default mortgages that they would rehabilitate the homes on this homeowner's loan. That brought in a lot of business. MT: Would you say that construction in general might have picked up during that time? HW: I would. At that particular time, too, we saw an opportunity in 1931 in re-roofing houses. At one time, we had five shinglers going, and that saved us. We would go out and just finish houses that looked like they were out and needed re-roofing. Then we would send them an advertisement, and we picked up a lot of work. We were one of the first yards in Ogden to take advantage of this Title I repair renewal that the government put out. And I think that helped quite a bit. But I don't think that became a factor until 1935 or 1936. MT: What do you remember about the WPA and the CCC and some of those organizations? Are you acquainted with some of those? HW: Well, I know people who were working on them. They were working in the parks 3 and they were working around in Ogden, in the cemetery. I know that later on this order went out into the woods, and into the mountains, and established those camps and took the boys out there and worked them, and gave them the opportunity to earn some money. They needed it. MT: How do you evaluate those programs now that you've had a few years to evaluate them? Do you think that they were worthwhile and necessary? HW: Well, I think that where they put the boys into the canyons and cleaned up the canyons and cleaned the woods, I think that was of a great deal of value. And of course the make-work projects that they had – the followed Marriner Eccles's idea. His idea was a different one from Hoover. Marriner's idea was to get the money out to the public so that they could buy the products. And if they bought the products, then the factories would start. And if the factories started, then the businesses would start. MT: Do you remember anything about church welfare at that particular time? HW: Yes, I think as a bishop in our stake, I think Earl Paul did a better job on that. He really organized it, and they did a great deal of work. So they organized and went out into the fields and picked the fruit, and then they took it into the wards and canned it, and put it up so the people had something to eat. That was the beginning of the [LDS] church welfare project. MT: Do you think of any amusing incidents that happened through these years.? HW: Well, no, not anything particularly amusing. I remember one man who was a very successful builder and had about five houses for sale in 1929. He held his price too long, and then by 1932, when he finally had to sell, he lost his home and he 4 lost everything that he had, but that's not amusing. I remember his wife said that she thought that the Lord would provide a way for them. But at that time, we needed a caretaker and the bishop was trying to get hold or her and him to take care of it. He took care of it, and he came out of it in later years, and paid off his bills, that is paid off his portion of it. We organized it, and he paid it off over a number of years.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with Morris Barrett. Mr. Barrett recalls gaining an education at the Weber Normal School, teaching and serving as principal in Eden during the Depression, teaching at Weber High School, and serving as principal and teacher at Hooper Junior High School. ; 10p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Morris Barrett Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Morris Barrett Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Barrett, Morris, an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Morris Barrett. Mr. Barrett recalls gaining an education at the Weber Normal School, teaching and serving as principal in Eden during the Depression, teaching at Weber High School, and serving as principal and teacher at Hooper Junior High School. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: What do you remember about the Great Depression? What were you doing then? Where did you live? MB: I happened to have graduated from high school in the spring of 1929, and by the time I was in my first year of college at Weber Normal College, we were becoming aware of the fact that there was a Depression underway. It became more marked and more extreme in its dimension as I continued at Weber College, where I graduated in 1932. MT: When did you start your teaching career? MB: My first full year began in the fall of 1935. MT: And where did you teach at that time? MB: In Eden. I was principal and teacher at Eden. There were eight grades, three teachers. I was principal and had the seventh and eighth grades as my responsibility. MT: What do you remember about teaching at that time? What did you get paid? What were the problems, if there were problems? MB: I may preface that by saying that the first year that I came out of college before the first full year that I spoke of, there were, as I recall, two teaching positions that were open in Weber County as the late summer came. I recall so well being 2 one of many, many, many who were interviewed by Superintendent Wahlquist and some other members of the staff on a particular evening set for interviews. Neither of the positions were in my subject major. As I recall, one position went to a young lady and the other position to a young man who had applied. There were, as I say, many, many who applied. It happened that during the course of that year, although I had not been given a full-time position, I was called in by the board and assigned to relieve one of the members of the high school staff who had run for, and been elected to, the state legislature. So my first year of teaching was at Weber High School - or my first extended experience was at Weber High School - where I taught for about 16 weeks while the legislature was in progress. By the time that year had ended, I had been identified as one to take a full-time job, and that was as principal teacher in Eden. Now, I recall so well my salary that I made during my first full year of teaching. But if I may leave that fact for a moment, as a substitute teacher at Weber - I taught at Weber High School - I taught for a flat salary of $3.50 per day. My first contract for principal and teacher was for $900 for the year. We were paid $50 each two weeks over the nine months period of time. My second year of teaching was $990, a $90 increase. My salary was still below $1,200 at the time I was married during my third year of teaching. I recall so well after having taught at the point of getting my Master's degree, I was teaching in Plain City at the time - this was five years after my Bachelor's - and without any 3 warning I was reassigned. This was the Friday before getting out for the Christmas holidays. I was assigned to go over to the Hooper School, and be the principal of the Hooper Junior High School. I recall so well hearing about this particular assignment directly from a member of the school board. I walked toward the school board office, and as I approached the building, I remember that Fred Barker, who was a member of the school board at that time, came walking down the steps. He said, "Congratulations on being the new principal of the Hooper School." I said, "You must have the wrong person in mind, Brother Barker." He said, "Don't you believe me?" I said, "What you're saying I can hardly believe," because I wasn't even aware that there was a position and I hadn't applied for it. He said, "Well, at the board meeting last night, you were voted to be the new principal of the Hooper School. And," he said, "you probably will be interested. Your salary is going to be $1,440." Now that was an increase, as I recall, of about $250 per year over what I was making over in Plain City - just barely over $1,200. I had been married part of this time, and as a matter of fact, I had taken part of a year off, two quarters off, to finish my Master's degree. Here I was with a Master's degree going to be principal of a 10-grade school. As I recall, there were 13 teachers, and I taught four periods of the day and was administrator. There was no secretary, no assistants, and my salary was $1,440. MT: What do you remember about students at that time, their clothing, and so forth? 4 MB: I don't have any vivid memories of clothing extremes. I do recall that the students were very well-dressed considering the situation. We were not plagued with the kinds of extreme styles that seem to characterize today, and though there were some extreme cases of hardship due to lack of sufficient earning in the family, students were remarkably well cared for, as I recall. I have no remembrance of any unfortunate circumstances related to the inability of families of youngsters to come reasonably well-dressed to school. MT: In some of the other interviews, I have heard that women were somewhat discriminated against during the Depression years. What is your recollection of that? MB: I recall that women were not permitted to teach when they were married. My wife, for instance, was teaching at Weber High School at the time that we were engaged. We married during the summer and because our plans were set for marriage during that summer, she was not offered a contract for the following year. I saw that without it having been an issue. She didn't plan to teach, the board didn't recognize it as a general custom that there should be two teaching salaries in one family, it was not a practice for a husband and wife to be both employed. MT: Do you think of anything else that might be of interest? MB: I recall that there has been a marked change in the quantity and type of equipment available in the schools for educational purposes. Obviously, though we had libraries, they were of a very limited nature. We had very few audiovisual materials or the hardware equipment. I recall my second year, it may have been 5 my first year of teaching in Eden, Dr. William P. Miller, present president of Weber College, was an employee of Weber County School District as a young man in his second or third year of employment, I believe. He was the audiovisual director at that time. I remember one of the roles he played was to bring a film around to the schools periodically. Now, we had no projectors of any kind in our school at Eden. There were no tape recorders, maps and charts in limited number, but no electronic equipment of any kind. Oh, what a great experience it was for the students, as well as the teachers, when Bill Miller came into the school on his schedule to show an educational film. He would spend sometimes half an hour, sometimes 45 minutes. On occasion the film may have been an hour, but most often it was less than that. He may have a feature of 35 minutes and maybe a short one of 10 minutes. I recall that on rare occasions, once in a while just for kicks, he would entertain the students by running a part of that film backwards. But what a contrast in the area of audiovisual equipment and use today as compared to then. I suppose that projector he brought was the only projector that was in the district at that time. It was not sound. That is, some of the films shown were not sound films.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with William Arthur Budge. The interview took place at the Commercial Security Bank in Ogden, Utah. Mr. Budge was an officer of the Commercial Security Bank during the depression years. ; 10p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program William Arthur Budge Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah William Arthur Budge Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Budge, William Arthur, an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with William Arthur Budge. The interview took place at the Commercial Security Bank in Ogden, Utah. Mr. Budge was an officer of the Commercial Security Bank during the depression years. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Mr. Budge, what was your profession at that time? WB: I was working with the Commercial Security Bank. MT: What do you remember concerning that particular period of time concerning banking and the stock market crash, things along this line? WB: Well I don't remember many specific instances but when the stock market crash came, and especially here in Ogden when the Ogden State Bank closed, then of course we had a run on the banks here in Utah. And I can remember here in our own bank I was in the teller's cage at that time, that the people came in and wanted their money and we paid it out just as fast as we possibly could, and we stayed open, we didn't close at the regular banking hours, we stayed open just as long as the people came. And so the first day we went on toward evening before we closed, and then we opened the next day and then the people began to . . . there weren't so many came, and then the people began to bring their money back when they found out that they could get it out. MT: What immediate affect did you feel from the crash of the stock market, if any? Either as a banker or as an individual. WB: Well, I can't say that I did because I was working all the time, and personally, I can't say that it did affect me. MT: Then the stock market crash or the depression itself wasn't of much effect on you at all? WB: No, no, because I was still employed by the bank, so I didn't have to lay off, and it didn't make any particular difference that way as I remember. 2 MT: Before we started the tape you mentioned something about the bank holiday, would you like to mention a little something about that? WB: Well, when it was decided by the government to close the banks, then we had a holiday as I remember, and this was decided by whoever had the authority to make the decision that the banks, when they opened would issue script, and I can remember that for these two weeks, I was signing script for the bank, myself. I was an officer for the bank, and I was signing script for the bank with the idea that when the bank opened, there would be script instead of currency. But as, remember, the President of the United States said that when the banks opened we'll pay currency, which was done, and the script was not used. MT: Do you feel that that was an important move at that time? WB: Yes, very important because it then the people had confidence in the government. Now what I think the people were afraid of, it was feared that the people who had currency would keep it hid up, and this way, by paying currency, it was out in the open again, and people had confidence. Kept it circulating and kept the people's confidence. MT: Were there other banks in this particular locality, other than the Ogden State Bank, that did close? WB: No, not in Weber County, none that I know of. MT: Looking back at that time, do you have any ideas or theory as to why the Ogden State Bank closed, while the others were not closed? WB: Well the only thing that I would think about was that the Ogden State Bank was not meeting the requirements of the State Banking Department, or even the ideas that the Federal Reserve might have concerning them. Course the Ogden State Bank, as I remember then, was not a member of the Federal Reserve. I'm not sure about that, but I 3 don't hardly think they were. So it seems, this is my opinion of course, that the Ogden State Bank was not in compliance with what the State Banking Department was demanding, or thought was right, and therefore it closed. MT: Could you give us a little light on a bank, as to why at that particular time they were vulnerable to runs, as opposed to now. WB: Well, now, any time that a bank closes, people begin to lose confidence, and of course they like to have their money, and therefore, people don't generally study bank situations, they don't study bank statements, even though they're published in the paper I doubt if they study them to see how solvent a bank may be. So if one bank closes it creates a condition that people think well I'd better get my money out from where I've got it. So the bank where I worked, the Commercial Security, the people came for their money. I would say we had quite a run on the bank. I don't know how much we paid out but we took care of everyone that came, and we had sufficient money to do it. MT: How important do you feel it was psychologically to stay open, even after business hours? WB: Well we didn't want to shut the people off; we wanted to show them that they could have their money. So we just stayed open so all the things could be taken care of. And we not only gave them their money, but as I recall, we brought in sandwiches for those that had to wait. MT: Are there any other interesting things that you recall that took place during that time, either humorous or otherwise that people experienced during those years? WB: I can recall that one man who was a big business man here in town, and had a good sizeable bank account, stood up on a platform where the people could see him, that is the 4 people in the lobby, and he said "Now I have a lot of money in this bank and I'm not going to take it out, I'm confident that everything's going to be all right." MT: Those things really helped, didn't they? WB: Well, I think it helped, and then there was no criticism of the people; if they wanted their money, no one said anything of a derogatory nature to them. Of course it took time to pay them because the accounts had to be checked and it took a little time to pay them because they were drawing out large sums of money. Some of these people that had three, four, five, six thousand dollars or more, it took a little time to check the accounts and pay out the checks. MT: It would seem that during that time, it would have been a real set-up for someone to rob and so forth, did you become aware of anything of this nature? WB: Well, I can't remember being aware of anything like that. MT: How old were you in 1929? WB: I was about 45 years old. MT: What were you doing in the church at that time? WB: I was a bishop until 1931. I was bishop of the 7th Ward. MT: Did the people of your ward have a different experience than the ordinary citizen of Ogden? WB: No, I can't recall anything of an interesting nature. MT: Now, there was no church welfare at that time, is that correct? WB: No, we had the church welfare, because I recall we had the church welfare store set up over here on 17th street, so the welfare program was in operation. 5 MT: Nowas I recall, the main church welfare, the church-wide welfare program began along about 1936-is that correct? WB: Yes, that is correct. MT: Now, do you see a measurable difference in things as a result of this? WB: No. I don't recall anything about that. Now, I did say that we had the welfare program while I was bishop, but I should correct that and say that we didn't have any of these welfare programs, or any of the major items until along about 1936, and I was in the Ogden Stake Presidency when that was done.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with George Edwin Stratford. Mr. Stratford is a very successful farmer and produce man. He has been very successful here in Weber County in many different ventures. ; 10p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program George Edwin Stratford Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah George Edwin Stratford Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Stratford, George Edwin, an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with George Edwin Stratford. Mr. Stratford is a very successful farmer and produce man. He has been very successful here in Weber County in many different ventures. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: How long have you lived in Weber County? GS: Seventy-seven and one-half years. MT: What were you doing during the Depression years from 1929-39? GS: Farming and the produce business. MT: What type of produce did you handle? GS: Potatoes and onions. MT: What was your main clientele for your produce? Where did you sell? GS: We shipped in east, west, and locally. MT: Thinking back on those years, what was the status of the produce business during the Depression? GS: Nobody had any money to buy anything. Prices were cheap. Business was lousy. MT: Do you recall any shipments that you made? Could you just elaborate a little bit on some of the shipments you made and the return on those shipments? GS: Well, a lot of the cars we shipped in those days cost us 20 cents 100 for potatoes. Some of those cars wouldn't pay the freight. We had to give them the potatoes besides paying the freight on them. And the country was in such a condition that people had no money to operate. It was almost impossible for anybody to even make a living in those days. MT: Were you operating the farm and the produce business at that time? 2 GS: Yes, operating both. MT: You had similar conditions on the farm – or what was your condition on the farm? GS: Well, it was the same situation on the farm. You couldn't make it pay because your produce was so cheap. Of course in those days there, too, wages were cheap, too, see. Now, I met a man at a wedding along about a month ago, and he said to me, "George, you're the cause of me quitting smoking." And I said, "I don't know how in the world I caused you to quit smoking." And he said, "I used to pack potatoes for you for 20 cents an hour, and I decided that I wasn't going to work an hour for a package of cigarettes, so I quit. So," he said, "you were the cause of me quitting smoking cigarettes in those days." I told him I didn't quite remember that we got down to 20 cents an hour, but the best men that the country had worked for me for 35 cents an hour, where today a lot of these are highly educated men, bankers and men in business who have made a good success. But they worked for me in those days for 35 cents an hour. MT: When were you married? GS: I was married in 1912, 12th day of January. MT: How many children did you have during the Depression years? GS: Well, my family came right along. I don't know. We had six children, and they came right along from the Depression on. Of course some were born before the Depression. MT: Do you remember any financial problems in your home that were troubling to you? GS: Well, we were in debt. We had no money. We got along and made a living, but it 3 was tough picking. Of course we bought a pair of overalls in those days for 50 cents, so it didn't cost much to buy stuff, not like it is today. MT: Do you think of things that happened to you then that are amazing to you as you look back on them? GS: Well, I oftentimes told my children of the conditions that we went through during those times. It's hard to make them believe it because they didn't remember many things about it. But we lived and got by, and I accumulated a lot of property in those days, bought it for nothing practically. But that was the conditions of the times. Nobody had any money. I saved through my influence with a man that did have money. I saved two of my neighbors' farms for them during the Depression. MT: Now, you mentioned that you were in debt at that time. Were you able to secure credit from the government? Or what were the sources of credit? GS: I've always had good credit all my life, and I have never known of a time, including the Depression, when I couldn't go to the bank and borrow enough to get by on. And never in my whole life have I ever been turned down for a dollar that I've asked the bank. That's when I accumulated all my property. It was through my association with the bankers and the confidence that they had in me that I was able to buy all this property during the Depression days. I bought a farm had a $24,000 mortgage on it for $3,500 cash. I didn't have the money, but I went to the bank and they loaned me $3,500 to buy the farm. MT: You mentioned potatoes around 20 cents a hundred. What would onions have sold for? GS: They didn't raise as many onions in Weber County, and there wasn't as many 4 onions. But onions are a commodity that varies a good deal in price. It depends a good deal upon supply and demand of them. But then they were down, too. I don't just remember just what they paid for onions, but we were heavy in those days in potatoes as we have packed as high as 10 cars a day here. We were heavy in the shipment of potatoes. MT: Did you buy your produce outright from the farmer? GS: We bought it outright and paid cash for it. We never shipped anything on consignment, and we still do business that way. MT: Do you think of anything else that might be of interest during those years? GS: Well, in those days our mode of transportation was the horse and buggy, or the horse and surrey. I have seen the time on the 24th of July when I didn't have 10 cents to buy an ice cream cone. So those were pretty trying times, and I was in no way alone. I had lots of company. MT: You had to discontinue the use of the automobile through those years? GS: We didn't have one. We had the old horse and buggy. I'll never forget the first automobile that I bought. I always wanted a Buick and of course I always wore overalls because I'm dressed up in overalls, and that's my mode of dress – in working clothes. I went into Walter Cheeseman to buy me a Buick, and of course, not being dressed up like a city dude would be, why I couldn't get nobody to sell me one because they didn't think I had any money. Well, I had the money to pay cash for it, but then nobody wanted it. So I went over to R. K. Mitchell and bought me a big six Studebaker. I'll never forget the price – $2,553.75, and I paid him spot cash for the car. But I had saved that money, and 5 I had saved that money to buy me an automobile. MT: What year would that have been? GS: Oh, I can't remember the year. It's been a long time ago. I've never owned a Buick automobile from that year to this. I've owned Chryslers, Cadillacs, Oldsmobiles, Ford, Chevys, Pontiacs, DeSotoes. MT: Were you married at that time? GS: Oh yes. And I have been quite successful in life. I have always been able to pay my bills. I think I have about as good a record as any man that's been in business that many years. When I settled in here, this was all sagebrush. I worked off of the farm when I was first farming, and my wages for my team and wagon and horses and all was $2 a day, and I was glad to have a job for $2 a day. We had to work in those days. We hauled seven loads of pelf a day, shoveled it both ways to feed the cattle.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with Roy C. Phipps. Mr. and Mrs. Phipps discuss employment during the Depression; the scarcity of cash, cost of living, medical expenses, and providing food and clothing for their family. Some discussion of WPA government programs as well. ; 11p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Roy C. Phipps Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Roy C. Phipps Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Phipps, Roy C., an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Roy C. Phipps. Mr. and Mrs. Phipps discuss employment during the Depression; the scarcity of cash, cost of living, medical expenses, and providing food and clothing for their family. Some discussion of WPA government programs as well. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Where were you living during the Depression? RP: Right here in Ogden. MT: What was your occupation during that time? RP: Well, I worked in the baggage department at the railroad. MT: What duties did you perform there? RP: Well, we transferred baggage, and that type of thing, but the biggest part of our work was handling the US mail. MT: If you would, just give me an idea of what you remember about those years. RP: Well, I didn't actually get a steady job until about 1936, and the Depression was more or less over by then. Prior to that, I worked a few months on the Rio Grande - that was out in Roy - for two different parts of two years. And of course there were WPA projects and that sort of thing prior to that. MT: Where did you work on the WPA? RP: Well, there were several places. There was one place out in North Ogden where we dug up an orchard and cut up the wood by hand into fireplace logs. Another project I was on was helping to fill the Pineview Dam when they started that - our present Pineview Dam. And before that, we were building a road up at North Fork. Of course this wasn't all steady. This was just when our turn came during the money. Maybe we'd work two or three days and that would be it, but in a 2 couple of winters, we shoveled the snow in the gutters, and we did just whatever they had for us to do. There wasn't much pay involved. It was all right. That's the way they paid us then - script and foodstuffs. And we had to kind of scratch and one thing and another to pay our rent. It was pretty tough going, especially for a man with a family, and I had a couple of kids. MT: When were you married? RP: I was married in 1929. Of course sometimes we'd have to let the landlord go without his rent, but he was in as bad of shape as we were, and so it didn't matter too much. MT: What did your rent cost you at that time? RP: Well, I don't think any place I ever lived was over $12 a month. The rent was cheap in those days, but it was hard to get a hold of that. MT: In those part-time days at the railroad, approximately how many days a week did you work? RP: Well, after 1931, I got a job where I worked about three hours a day, three or four hours a day. It was a contract job at the baggage room, the same place that I am now. And that paid us $45 a month. But then the railroad, they evidently got into pretty bad straits, so they asked everybody to take a 5 percent cut, so the employees agreed to that. After that, we were only getting $40 a month. After I got on at the railroad, I couldn't work at the WPA anymore. MT: You are still working at the baggage department. Would you mind telling me what you earn there now? 3 RP: Well, I think that we can buy more now for the wages that we earn than we could then. I haven't actually compared it, but I believe that we can. I know we're a lot better off now than I was then. MT: What about food during that time? Did you have some method of getting it from the rural area, or did you buy from the grocery store? RP: Sometimes two or three of us got together and went out to the farms and picked up the potatoes that they had left. That helped us out that way, and different foods that would be given to us. We'd go out and get in a box. Then at that time they had where you'd go down there, and they'd allow each person or family so much food weekly or monthly, and I forget. They had a program that supplied us with the staples, nothing fancy, but we got by. Whatever was in season, they doled out to us. MT: Would you compare for me the availability of food with clothes and shoes and this type of thing? RP: I never had to go after any clothing, as I recall. We seemed to get enough clothing, but I don't know if they had a clothing dole or not. I guess they did. I guess they had clothing donated, and we picked up enough to get by with. I'm not sure, but it seemed that Utah pretty well took care of their own. I never heard of anyone starving to death, but it was pretty tough for a lot of us. Of course in 1932, we got some federal help, but there were two or three years in there when it was pretty tough starting, I know. My brother and I lived at Wall at about 30th Street, and we used to walk to work. We didn't have bus fare or street car fare. In fact, there was no cash anywhere. 4 MT: Looking back now, how do you evaluate the government programs that were available at that time - say the WPA and other programs? RP: Well, from my experience, I think that they were helping the people out more then than they are now. But of course I'm not too familiar with how the other class of people get by. How some of the welfare people get by, I don't know. But I know if it hadn't been for the government then, we might have starved to death. Well, I guess too that there was so much surplus in livestock and things like that, that rangers couldn't afford to feed them. So they fed them to the people that needed it. But anyway, we were provided for pretty well here, pretty well. That is, like I said before, nothing elaborate, nothing more than the staples we needed, but we got by. MT: When were your children born? RP: One about 1930 or 1931, and the other one a couple of years after. MT: What about the doctor charges and this type of thing? RP: Well, they were very cheap. I remember one hospital bill, one of the births, and then they kept them a lot longer. I think one only cost us $10, $25. So they weren't making too much money either. The doctors were very cheap. They used to come for almost nothing. Especially one old doctor we had, a family doctor. He used to take chicken eggs, livestock, or anything for payment. That was Dr. Draper. But I guess the generation that I'm in, they all went through it. Of course if a man had a job, he was well off. If he was making $4 a day, it was good money, if he could make it every day. MT: What about other occupations as compared to the railroad during those years? 5 RP: Well, at that time, there was very little civil service. There was the police force and the firemen and things like that. There were no defense people or anything like that. The store clerks were about the only ones on a salary basis. Construction work was seasonal. Maybe a guy would work three or four months in the summer, if he was lucky, and if he didn't, he had to last. MT: Other than the projects of the WPA, that you were on, were there other projects at that time that we might be aware of now? RP: A little later than that, they came along with this one. That was a little later. And some of the fellows that weren't married - that was preferably single fellows - the married fellows didn't participate in that too much. I know they had a camp of them up in Huntsville, and several of the fellows I knew went down to Southern Utah. They were scattered around. MT: Who are you acquainted with that was in the CCC that is still around? RP: Well, there's Harold Shaw. He lives out in Roy. That's about all I can recall right now. MT: What did you do for entertainment during those years? RP: Well, mostly I ran back and forth from home to the library. I could get free literature there. I did quite a bit of reading then, that is fiction. I didn't do anything worthwhile; I guess I was too young then. And there was a 10 or 15 cent movie, and if you could get a whole of a dime you could go there or to a dance every Wednesday night. The dance was free at the White City up until 9, and then you had to pay. I don't know. People let down a little bit and had a little fun. 6 MT: Did you have some community activities and church activities that you participated in? RP: We probably did, but I wasn't much of a church member at that time. Most of the wards had a dance at that time. And there was the roller skating rink. There were a couple of those around. And there was the Berthana Ball Room and Rainbow Gardens. Mrs. Phipps: You know, my dad, during the Depression days, worked for $2.72 a day in the railroad shops.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with David J. Wilson. Mr. Wilson discusses his experiences practicing law in Weber County during WWII, and the Depression. ; 19p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program David J. Wilson Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah David J. Wilson Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Wilson, David J., an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with David J. Wilson. Mr. Wilson discusses his experiences practicing law in Weber County during WWII, and the Depression. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: This is informal, and we'll just not worry about anything at all. About the only formal thing I need on it is your name. What is your full name? DW: David J. MT: When did you start practicing law in Weber County? DW: 1919, fifty-two years ago. MT: When were you married? DW: 1916, fifty-five years ago. MT: How many children did you have? DW: We had five. MT: Now, in the years from 1929 to 1939, you were practicing law in Weber County? DW: That's right. MT: What do you remember about those years as being the most significant things pertaining to your law practice and to people in general? DW: Well, of course there were many unemployed people working on various federal projects. Prices were extremely low. I could buy all the groceries I could carry for two, three dollars, and it costs me fifty dollars now. That perhaps is an 2 exaggeration, but they were extremely low as compared to present prices. The legal practice perhaps didn't suffer as much as some other people did. There were many foreclosures, and I represented the financial institution and made some money, unfortunately, that way. I had as good a practice as most any other men. My income was adequate, so I sent three children to college and one on a mission during that period. So we got along. Some attorneys who didn't have connections which, in retainers, enable them to avail themselves of a particular practice, which would then bring money, didn't do very well. They were living low on the hog, as well as the others. So it was a time of need – yet, I think on the whole I went through poverty just as bad. My people owned a homestead in the early days of my life. I have often said that I felt the so-called Depression was getting along without things that my Pa and Ma had never heard of. They didn't have it, they got along without it. They couldn't buy clothes, they got along without clothes. Once they had the period of high living during the twenties, it was difficult to change their practices. Once you have enjoyed a high standard of living and many of the luxuries of life, if you lose even the luxuries, you think you're in poverty. So many people who claimed to be hard out, still were able to live. They could eat, they had shelter. The man who was dependent upon a day's work, and who had to rent his home, who had no income except as he derived from his daily labor really, in some instances, was hard up, and it was a godsend for him to get any kind of relief. MT: Do you remember anywhere near, say, what a man would have been earning at that time, say a laborer? 3 DW: No, I really don't know what the scale of wages was at that time. Of course, it was very, very much more than it is now. It was an employer's market – the man was mad to get anything he could find. Not a question of strikes, it was a question of finding something to do. So right now we have so many strikes prevalent, one is reminded of those days when men were delighted to work and get what they could for their labor. It was very much an employer's market. Of course, the farmers were in bad circumstances. In the end, a farmer can always feed his family because he had his crops growing, and he had his cows and his hogs and his chickens and his sheep; he could live. He had his shelter and his food. Got along somehow. So you can't always take the gripes that people engage in as indicative of what their true condition is. But the man that was really badly off was the man who was wholly dependent upon his day's labor, and who had no savings. He, of course, had to go to some source to supplement his income or to get some income. In many, many instances they had no income. That, of course, prevailed for quite a few years. There was no substantial improvement until we got into World War One, and then of course we got into our preparedness program, and all the slack was taken up. MT: World War II started about '41, didn't it? DW: Started – yes, Pearl Harbor was December '41. MT: The war in Europe we supplied was a little earlier than that. DW: Yes. 4 MT: Would you describe to me as near as you can, the situation that a young attorney coming into practice at that particular time, what would be his problems? DW: Well, of course, finding something to do, even in 1919, when I started. I took employment at Weber College part-time, teaching English and commercial law in order to make a living until I could get something coming to my offices. A young attorney in these twenties, thirties, you don't really have any real unemployment begin until after 1930. We had the stock market crash in '29; the unemployment situation really became noticeable and substantial in the '30s. The early '30s. Of course, that's what led to the oust of Hoover in 1932, because the Depression was then rather deep. So a young attorney who started at that period had to supplement his income, had to get an income in some way other than through his laurels. If he was able to establish connections with some attorney already in the business, then of course… MT: When did Jay start in the business? Do you remember? DW: 1946. MT: '46 – after the war. DW: Yes. I'd been practicing twenty-five years. MT: He has a fine practice up there now. DW: They do all right. 5 MT: Fine young man. Did you have problems at that time with, say, did people have problems paying you for your work when you would complete cases and so forth? DW: Oh, yes. I think everybody had a question of collections. Of course, if people didn't have the money, they couldn't pay you, so many of us carried a great many unpaid fees on our books – fees that never were paid. Matter of fact, I learned early that if you don't get your fee by the time the work is done, you have a hard time ever collecting it, in most instances, thereafter. Some men are so honest, they'll pay you no matter how long it takes. That's not the general rule. Fortunately, the question of foreclosures were paid by the institutions that employed us; there was no difficulty on that score. Generally speaking, attorneys, like others, had difficulty collecting fees. MT: What do you remember about the Ogden State Bank and its closure? What did that do to our economy? DW: That was a very severe blow financially to Weber County. Incidentally, it never should have been closed. The assets were adequate so that the bank could have been kept open if it had had the proper cooperation from sources it had the right to expect help from. But they were closed, and it was very severe blow to many people. I was not banking there at the time – I banked there for many years, but I was not banking there at the time – however, I did have clients that had money there, and of course for some time everything to do with the bank was tied up. No distribution was made of assets for a long period. Many of them had all their 6 money they had tied up. Their savings, their checking accounts; many people suffered. I can remember one man who was a grocer and who had everything there, who was so completely shocked by it he committed suicide. That's unusual, but many people were left in very strained circumstances, and it was a great shock to them, because they had great faith in that bank, and there was no dishonesty there of any kind. It was just a question of overextended credit; many good people couldn't meet their obligations. It was a very severe blow to Weber County and to Northern Utah. It not only hit Weber County, but some of Box Elder County, Northern Davis County and Morgan County, and it served a wide area there. MT: Is it kind of considered the rural man's bank? DW: Yes, they had financed a lot of the livestock and agricultural interests, and of course the livestock market was so it couldn't pay, many men who were feeding cattle lost everything they had. MT: I have been told by some other people who should be knowledgeable on this that they finally paid out somewhere around sixty-eight percent of their… DW: Sixty-some odd percent. Some settlements were made that never should have been made; reduced payments for people who could have paid in full. MT: Well, that's an almost unheard-of figure for a bank being closed, to come up that high, isn't it? 7 DW: Oh, yes. When you consider that they had to sacrifice their assets, and that they had to accept compromise payments all the way down the line, even instances where people could have paid in full. So that's why I say the bank never should have been closed, and had it had half a chance, it could have worked the situation out. MT: I've been told this by other people who have substantial knowledge on this subject. DW: Yes, I know all that, I knew the people there very well. I know Archie Bigelow very well, and the principal employees there, such men as Walter Farr and Dave Davis. MT: Now, Dave Davis, I understand is here in Salt Lake someplace now, is that correct? DW: Still living, yes, in his nineties. MT: Would he still be so that he could be interviewed, do you feel? DW: Yes. He's very rational. I talk to him every year – I don't know, I don't think he's deteriorated, he has a son-in-law in Ogden, a Bud Lund who's in the Food King, I think it is, he could tell you about him. He has his phone number in the Salt Lake phone book. MT: I'm going to try and get a hold of him. DW: I guess he's the only officer of the bank who still survives, as far as I know. Other minor employees, but the principal men have all gone except Dave. 8 MT: Frank Francis was there with the bank, but I think he was an assistant cashier or something like this. He's the highest official up to now that I've been able to find. DW: Dave was over him; Dave was cashier. MT: Right. Frank told me of him; he just didn't know exactly where he was. DW: He's right here in Salt Lake County. You can get him – D E Davis. Yes, I think that was a catastrophe for the county. The effects of that and from the angle of its being thrown into liquidation when it shouldn't have been. MT: Now, the effects of this thing as I've gone around and talked to people in various vocations, occupations, and other bankers; they seem to all be in agreement of the catastrophe of the thing. Most of the other bankers that I've talked to indicate that it was a sad blow to all the banking in Weber County. DW: Candidly, I think the other banks could have assisted the Ogden State Bank in such a way as to save it without sacrificing themselves. MT: That's an interesting idea. DW: Yes. See, at that time the – many of the men in banking then are gone, Sam Dye and Hemingway, H.E. Hemingway with Commercial Security. They had a severe run on them. They had a run then; I can remember seeing Hemingway standing up there, shouting to the people, sweating, white foam under his arms and perspiration. Jim Dubine, the attorney, standing there trying to calm the people. They were bringing money in from the Federal Reserve, in the back door to satisfy the people and withstood the run. 9 MT: I talked with Walter Budge up there just a short time ago – yes, William Arthur, thank you. He told me about the same thing that you've mentioned here. He said that to show the people and to try to calm them down, they even stayed over late at night, stayed on beyond closing time, to assure people that they were solvent and could pay off their bills DW: Yes. I stood in the lobby of the bank and watched that. I was banking there at that time; I didn't have fear. The worst thing in the world to do was to start a run on them. That was idiotic on the part of the depositors, because only a part of them could get their money out before they'd be forced to stop paying out. MT: Mob psychology is a mighty dangerous thing in many ways, particularly for bankers. DW: I don't know what else I could do. MT: Do you recall – what were you doing in the church at that time, Brother Wilson? DW: Oh, I was Bishop of one of the largest wards in the county. Ward of over 2,000 people, from 1925 to 1935. MT: Which ward was that? DW: Ogden 12th ward. MT: I just talked yesterday to Raymond Wright, who was Bishop of the First Ward from '35 on through… 10 DW: I went into the Stake Presidency in '35, became the first regional chairman of the Church Welfare setup. I was present in the Tabernacle when President Grant appeared there and announced the LDS Welfare program. MT: Was there a significant difference between the way you as a Bishop was able to take care of the needy after the welfare program come in – was there a difference, or what do you visualize there? What do you recall? DW: Well, I lived in an area where we had little unemployment. I was in the southeast part of Ogden, where we had business and professional men, and men who were employed. Our rate of unemployment was small there. We didn't have any difficulty taking care of our people. You always have an irreducible number that you carry no matter how good times are or how bad they are. MT: That's correct. DW: We had that experience – we were fortunate in that we lived in an area of the city where we were not hit as hard as they were in other areas. MT: Yes. Down in Raymond Wright's area there, I guess they really had it bad. DW: There, and all the west part of the city. MT: He told me there that in his particular ward, being right there close to the railroad and so forth, they picked up a tremendous number of transient people who were just coming through and desperately in need of help. DW: Well, ours were all people in fixed residences and mostly homeowners, you see, in their own homes. So we had a – we started a large building program in our 11 ward in 1929, when we ran into this situation, but we dedicated our building in 1935. So you can see we were not as hard hit as some other areas. MT: That's right. DW: I remember that the stake and regional welfare offices, they carried quite a load. MT: Were you able to offer some employment on your building, there, to people, or how did you operate that? DW: The ward people did some work, but we contracted a lot of it. MT: I see. Do you think of anything that you – customs that you developed during the Depression years that might have carried on to the present time with you? Either you, or your family; or do you feel that they had a significant effect on your life? DW: Well, I don't think so. We always lived frugally. I never had an unusually large income. As a matter of fact, the amount that I pay in taxes now exceeds considerably the total income that I had in the '30s when I was sending my children through college. MT: That's interesting. Very interesting. DW: Fees the lawyers get now are triple, quadruple what they were when I was practicing. In fact, they've doubled since I quit practicing seventeen years ago. MT: Has it been that long? DW: I left in 1954. 12 MT: When you went to Washington? DW: New York. MT: New York, yes. DW: But we must recall also that the purchasing power of a dollar then was many times what it is now. Forty years ago, when we had the Depression, I told you about the groceries you could buy, and how you could buy everything – a car for three or four hundred dollars. A car costs about as much as a home cost then. I don't know if you're familiar with Midway or not; that's my old hometown. There's a beautiful architectural specimen, as you come up from Charleston and Midway. In the older part of the century, that beautiful home was sold for $2,500. I imagine now you'd have to pay $50,000 for it. MT: Yes, you probably would – I should say. DW: It's difficult to talk in specific terms, but six or seven thousand dollars fifty years ago was a lot of money. MT: Oh, yes, I should say. DW: I remember telling my wife, when we got to the point where I earned $5,000 a year, we'd be in the clover. MT: Certainly under the prevailing prices at that time you would have been, too. DW: Now, I went to Weber Academy, and I taught there, when we first moved to Ogden, as a teacher. It was then a high school, the old Weber Academy. I got 13 the highest salary ever paid a beginning teacher - $1,200. H.A. Dixon, who was a classmate, got a thousand dollars. The next year I got $1,400. Now you see a youngster just out of college, in his early twenties, would demand probably six, seven thousand dollars now. MT: That's right. $6,400 in Weber County now, is the starting salary. DW: That's better than five times what I got, with a college degree, teaching high school. MT: Yes, and you probably wouldn't live any better on it now than you did then, that's the thing. DW: So, as I see, it's difficult to make specific comparisons. MT: Right. DW: But those times had their virtues and taught their lessons. People really learned to be frugal, learned to get along on what they had to get along on. It's amazing what you can do if you have to. MT: Yes. DW: Making money stretch. Maybe someone could give you a better picture on this than I could. MT: You've given me exactly what I'm in search of on this type of thing, Brother Wilson. 14 DW: There was only one attorney active in Ogden who preceded me in the practice there, was Sam Paul. MT: Sam Paul is still living, too, isn't he? DW: Still in active practice. Roy Young is still living; he's out of practice for some time, don't know whether he could help you or not. MT: Was Ira Huggins practicing during that period of time? DW: Yes. Ira started to practice about 1924 or '25. Ira made his big money after that, when he got into politics. MT: Oh, yes. DW: See, I don't know who they are that can aid you. MT: Jay mentioned Sam Paul, and I plan to see him. DW: He's been in active practice longer than anybody else. Everybody else now practicing started after I did. MT: Well, that's very interesting. I surely appreciate your time, and I want to thank you.

The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ; This is an oral history interview with Ira Huggins. Mr. Huggins, a former state senator, describes practicing law and serving in the legislature during the Depression. He also discusses the overinvestment of the Ogden State Bank in agriculture and livestock, leading to its close. ; 13p.; 29cm.; 2 bound transcripts; 4 file folders. 1 sound disc: digital; 4 3/4 in. ; Oral History Program Ira Huggins Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Ira Huggins Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master's Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Huggins, Ira, an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Ira Huggins. Mr. Huggins, a former state senator, describes practicing law and serving in the legislature during the Depression. He also discusses the overinvestment of the Ogden State Bank in agriculture and livestock, leading to its close. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Where did you practice law during the Depression years from 1929-39? IH: Ogden, Utah, and of course throughout the State of Utah and Nevada and Idaho. MT: What do you recall as being some of the problems of an attorney at that time? IH: Well, of course, during the Depression years, the public generally had very little money. Legal business was rife. By that I mean there was plenty of legal business, but there was no money to pay fees with. So every lawyer got by on a very slim income necessarily, as most every other business and professional man did. There was just no money available. MT: When did you start your legal practice in Ogden? IH: April 1925. MT: You had a short time then, before the Depression began. IH: Yes, I recall the Depression started in about 1929, so I had about four years, but of course the first four years of a lawyer's practice is not very lucrative. He's just attempting to develop a clientele, and I had developed some clientele, of course. About that time, or shortly after that time, during the Depression years, in fact shortly after Franklin Roosevelt became president, Congress enacted an act called the National Recovery Administration. A part of that administration consisted of a national Brewers' Code. Shortly after Roosevelt was elected Prohibition was repealed. In order to avoid the possibility of breweries buying 2 their outlets by furnishing bars, back bars, and furniture, and many other things, this National Breweries Code was developed to police the action of the breweries. I was appointed along with an attorney by the name of Jack Healy from Denver, and Clint Broam from Omaha, as attorneys for the National Brewers Code Authority in the eleven western states. So I was practicing law throughout those states enforcing that authority. So I had that business in excess of what business I could develop here locally. And then, of course, the Ogden State Bank closed in 1930, I believe, and Judge Gideon and I were appointed attorneys for the liquidator of the Ogden State Bank, which was a godsend for us. MT: What do you remember about the Ogden State Bank and its reasons for closing, and whatever else you recall about it? IH: Well, the principle reason, of course, for closing the Ogden State Bank was that A. P. Bigelow, who was the president at the time, was very friendly with the agricultural and livestock interests, and he had made through his bank very many rather liberal loans, wherein he had taken real estate and livestock as security. As a matter of fact, they had not always been too careful in checking titles. In some of the farms and agricultural lands, he had as many as three and four mortgages on them at the State Bank. Well, livestock raisers and growers could not get enough money out of their produce to pay their mortgages off, and so the bank started running short of money. Other banks at that time were also hard-put. As a matter of fact, there were thirteen or fourteen banks every day 3 going broke because of lack of funds to keep up with the demands of their customers. And it developed here that people became alarmed at the fact that the Ogden State Bank was known to have made many liberal loans to the agricultural interests, and the time came that it couldn't meet the demands made upon it, so it had to close. MT: Now later, as I have heard from others, they paid off a certain percentage to the investors. Do you recall what percentage that was? IH: As I recall, they paid back about 66 or 67 percent on their general deposits. Of course they had a rather large trust, and of course that trust paid out in full – the trust moneys went to pay the trust. But the common claims, the checking accounts and the savings accounts, paid out about 66 to 67 percent. MT: Over how long a period of time would that have been, do you remember? IH: Oh, I think it was in liquidation six or seven years. Of course that necessitates, in the liquidation of a big institution such as that, a good deal of expense, overhead expense, legal expense, administrative expense, and that sort of thing. And then in the liquidation of a banking institution, they are required to sell the property. The Depression being on, the sale prices, of course, were down, so they lost money on their sales and liquidation. If the bank could have sold and liquidated their securities at face value, they could have paid out 100 percent on the dollar, but they couldn't do that because they were on forced sale. MT: Getting back to the life of an attorney during those years, what would be some of the problems of a young attorney then that would be different from the problems of a young attorney now? 4 IH: Well, of course his main problem was getting paid for his services. Bankruptcies were prevalent and of course whenever bankruptcies would occur there would be one or two attorneys and doctors and dentists and grocery-men who would lose. And so they had the problem of collecting fees. It wasn't so much a matter of starting a business. It was collecting the fees after they had performed the services. The money just wasn't available. MT: What was the nature of business then as compared with the clientele and business of an attorney today? IH: Well, the bulk of the business at that particular time would be bankruptcies and collections. And of course, always in times of Depression there are a lot of divorces because dissatisfaction develops in the home, and quarrels develop, and the husband and wife just simply part their ways and divorce. Collections were difficult to make. You could get judgments, but you can't eat with judgments. He just took bankruptcy, he had to because if he didn't take bankruptcy and he got a job, his wages would be garnished, and he couldn't feed his family, so he had to take bankruptcy. It was very prevalent. Bankruptcy fees were small, collection fees were small, divorce fees were small, even if you could collect them. So some attorneys, one in particular here, was quite resourceful and went into the used furniture business. He would take mortgages on the household furniture for his services, and when the mortgages weren't paid he took the furniture and sold it, used furniture. And he made a substantial amount of money doing that. MT: What entertainment do you remember during those years? 5 IH: Well, I haven't been one, and my family hasn't been a family to seek much entertainment. A picture show once in a while, family gatherings. Of course we belonged to two or three social groups, a dancing club, maybe a bridge club, or something of that sort, that was about all the entertainment we had. We'd go for a little ride in our automobile and take a trip for two or three days. We couldn't afford more than that. That was about our entertainment. It was mostly entertainment for the entire family instead of just for the parents as separate from the family. I belonged to the Kiwanis beginning in 1935, and I belonged to the Knife and Fork Club. MT: Looking back on those years, what would you advise a young attorney starting out now? IH: I was elected to the Utah State Senate in 1930, and I served in that body until and including 1946. And of course by reason of my work in the state Senate, I became acquainted with a lot of rather influential people. I was able to develop some rather substantial business from my contacts, not by way of getting legislation through, but I became known, and that's the big problem of the average young lawyer, is becoming known. Until people know him, and have confidence in him, of course they don't use his services. And so one of my recommendations today would be to the average young lawyer to get himself in some public office, not necessarily for pay, because the pay in those days in the Senate was $4 a day for 60 days every other year, and no expense money. So certainly the pay was not commensurate with the time involved. But it did put me in contact with a lot of people who were in the position later to use my services. I 6 would certainly recommend that to a young lawyer today, to become known in his community. Render some public service, let the people know who you are. If you have some ability and you are public-minded and get their confidence, I think that's the greatest asset a young man can have for himself. He needs to get into a position where he can build up a private practice. There is, of course, the possibility of getting connected with an established firm and by doing that he has an advantage and a disadvantage. Usually the firm uses him to do their beefing and research, and he doesn't become acquainted with their clients. But at least he does get some practice in making some research. MT: Is there anything that you remember about those years that you might consider beneficial to people? IH: I think one of the practices that would avoid the very trouble that developed then would be to keep out of debt. You go into debt when money's easy, and you can't pay the debt back when money's tough. And so they lose their property, and that's the thing that worries me today. With easy credit, credit cards, and that sort of thing, I have a fear that our total economy will be bankrupt. It's easy to buy these things when you only pay $5 a month, or $1 a month, and then you accumulate all those $5 a month. I've seen instances in my office where a man's total income for the next 10, 15, 20 years has already been mortgaged. He has no money to pay with, and the first time he misses a payment, his wages are tied up and he loses all that he had paid in. So keep out of debt. Work hard. Work is becoming a dirty word. It's one of those four-letter words we read about, I think. It's a dirty word: work and save. My wife and I, when we married, agreed 7 between ourselves that every month of our marriage we would put something away for our declining years, and we've done that. Sometimes it's been mighty small, but we've done that, and there hasn't been a month since we were married that we haven't put something away. And that's becoming passé nowadays because too many of us assume the attitude that the government will take care of us. Well, I think that's a poor attitude, and the time will come, I think, when the government can't take care of all of us. We're going to have to be taking care of ourselves. And I would have the hope that sooner or later we would go back to that practice of being adults sufficient within ourselves to not have to have the government take care of us. MT: Is there anything else that you remember about those years that might be interesting to other people? IH: Generally speaking during those years, we had a lot of young people who, because of the lack of money in their homes, dropped out of school and went out and got jobs much to their detriment in the future. Because a man without an education nowadays has very little chance of getting a job that will pay him very much money. And there are many of our people who today find themselves on relief. I think that they are on relief because they dropped out of school and didn't get an education so that now they cannot qualify for a decent job that will pay them a living wage. I think we saw a lot of that during the Depression years. And my recommendation is that every young man and every young woman should get all the education they can because they are going to need it. I'm happy nowadays that we are beginning to recognize the need for technical vocational 8 training. I'm on the state board of education. I was on the board of trustees for Weber College eight years, and we've been educating 80 percent of young people in this state for about 15 percent of the job openings. So we've been transporting out of our state the academically-trained people and keeping those here who aren't trained at all. Now we have two technical colleges, and we're training a lot of people in vocational work. Many times I've seen up here to Weber College where a person has two years of technical vocational training get his certificate and leave the college and say, "I've got a job for $15,000 a year" – being paid, receiving more for his services than many of the college professors are receiving. I'm glad to see this trend, and I think that we've got to develop it and increase it. Technical training now, vocational training, is very, very important, and it pays good salaries. I don't know of anything else that I can think of now that would be of any particular interest.